39: I'll Make a Mentsch out of You (with Rabbi Yosef Granosky)

[Music] hi I'm Deborah Lasky and welcome to the rabbi Lasky show and this is episode 39 and whether you're watching on tourney time we'll have you what to listen to your podcast we're so happy to have you aboard I mentioned in the last podcast and those young men who came to see me who's learning in Lakewood and he says that he's Marv bits this show too not just to his own school with other schools in Lakewood and he has for a shout out so that's RV Lonnie Otto and he says to give her a shadow to his friend Avraham millet so thanks for the support out there everybody it's it's certainly a heartwarming see how many people are listening and are participating and the podcast this week is funds an anonymously by a person who just gets hi Noah they say they listen to it when they travel and they enjoy it and they don't want their name mentioned but the mayor says Shem this list should be for you and for your family and all good things and this is obviously a special podcast because you know when I explained the nature of the podcast some podcasts ago which some people refer to as a rant but I referred to as an explanatory discussion I you know those you know when I explain things and sometimes people think that I'm yelling but anyway I said you know the nature of this show is amorphous and I have had thus far two guests now you could argue there was more than two guests because one of the guests was Fogo Garden from Australia and his boys but there were more than one but I count that as one guest and of course my son yog over now this is in fact the third guest on the on the rub ulanovsky show and what of course it is for me to have this person with malady of a little background just so you know what we're doing here I figured this is the first podcast Shoeless chores is its Cibola cetera and after we're Makabe latoya we then have to put it into practice and turn it into reality and I remember hearing an idea many years ago where the Ayla Hamish bottom right after my mother I see now you come to partials mesh bottom now you're on this high of Matt entire you're in this unbelievable spiritual level and what are we told don't punch your mom don't sleep with a cow don't you know don't steal and be Solars than ever so it seems so small but the answer is that Tyra understands that at the end of that they were human beings and therefore the Koyuk of Tyra is to be able to take us and form us into the people were supposed to be and I thought well would be more appropriate than to take one of the pioneers and Torah education and air show now today it is de rigueur that people come to Eretz Johnson learned it was not that way when I came to learn here the first time in 1975 there were very few options available and those options did not increase for many years and I'm I'm with about Yosef Granof ski who I can honestly say I know for friendly with not just now I'm friendly with for more than 40 years I made the freshmen and I say that so you appreciate how old he is and all his friends also I know him a long time and he was one of the pioneers in education so that when I was in Long Island NC s why they were people used to come to me to try to you know recruit for the achievers and I would always ask them the same question why are you any different the north of it because you she voted David was the first one on the scene that was serving this type of a public and if you coming up with another yeshiva you gotta explain to me why we need this and why you know or add of it which had been the gold standard for shouldn't be the go-to place but you know people like the flavor of the month and you know I can tell you many many fine Makana him who have difficulty finding work today because people want young people want new people want that and time-tested you know fennel doesn't have the same I don't know I never I don't remember anybody in punt of exchanger of shock you just a little too old for the job we're looking to bring the young man with a little more energy so so wash em I thought wouldn't it be wonderful to speak to her Granof ski who is a pioneer in the field and and share this with everybody because not everybody understands open parentheses I was at a chef at own years ago when our staff ski that saw was that the chef a tone you remember his desk there's a rubber Columbus allow but he built Columbus Ohio and and he was just there with his family's children his grandchildren no one really knew who he was and I said the reason is Torah in America is because of people like every staff ski who went into the Hard Rock and infertile land of America and managed to make tiller growth the same thing is true about Americans being able to learn in its shell there were pioneers library granovsky who were able to do that so without any further ado Shama alaikum welcome Rob you'll ask you to it we've been mistaken some ties there was a Rashad skiing Olaf ski and of it yeah however every granovsky to the rabbi Orlovsky show so nice to have you I'm pleased to be here so what what drove you to do yeah I I know a fellow who was married to her she was daughter and and he says there's three reasons of commercial Sheila one is you want to tell me them the second one is you get paid more as a Russia shooter than Rebbe and the third is for the covet and if not for the third reason the other two aren't good enough now I've always told you you know you just wanted to be a racial Shivam for the country I'm still waiting for the cover so what what made you decide to do this what what drove you into the into the arms of the rest of she was life I was learning and she would call it's time English life and they knew the Raby to give the first year so reveille motion change nobody up on canary how'd you end up on top it's fine by the way that's another story we look at was time I graduated cheap University but you didn't go to uh you don't go to yeshiva high school no I went to sheep University only grew up like in Canada I'm Canada I went to public months for you all Montreal that's even worse than Canada in those days it wasn't like this today okay the I went to mobile high school I went to worship University because there was really very few things for kids with little background to go to and I was very successful and he learned in jss then I went through the sugar program and when I want to graduate I do I wanted to learn as well so my friends were doing it and some people I knew you know it's a stroll when she was hobbits guy in all your options and here you are coming out of university you want to learn it's absolutely there were three things I'm on my table right right before really for but one wasn't really a thing that was shallow vain can be on the atrium conference game Wow that was it it was you know the good silver and a culture which is starting American program that here also but I didn't know that I know people in the guy shall have you in the end and can be Amish I was on another freshman that some friends in civic of its time and I had a ribbon why you rabbi you the partes said you learn you learn how to learn a conference time if you don't get too caught up in there I went to see become it's time I really don't love with it then I stayed there for many years what was the appeal well where's Lee no you had learned already in she'll universities he had been exposing other methods of your appeal was that grab a partner said you'll really had a learn how to learn out there but what did you you carried the covets time ago yeah so bright-eyed bushy-tailed so I came with that with that intent and I really like the method of learning and I really felt there was understanding thing to a different depth that I was understanding before and the exposures to the whole idea of masseur which is a very new thing I've learned in miss Lucia arm when I was when people said go will read the missile of Sharmila Jeremy and didn't speak to me now when did she become a time and they was opposed to say there and all of a sudden Lisa be silly shall became a different safer no and I was very very moved by the by him and finally I went after my ear I just well I went to the forest those in those days and I fell in love with the Russia she was that sound and that kept me there for a long time whether she became in 77 characters y'all I came with them and I didn't want to leave so fast so I stayed that year I stayed and gave this year and they needed a baby and I was the Rabi mom okay I was I was quite successful I was doing it for two years and I took a year it's another story which am I gonna go into now but I took a year off to learn every day every way two years and with my Everest was reclaimed from you I didn't come a rabbi I want to get to meet up whatever well I wasn't sure what I wanted to do you get discount on your fun at least and so I I was learning ready I am and all the guys that were my shear the previous year those kind of guys we're lost if she becomes a man they were bothering me a whole day I was trying to learn and they were coming over all day and speaking to me and sitting down with me and and I didn't know what to do and why were these boys in cover time in the first place there was a disappoint another very few options for kids coming ferryman to Maryland was an option that was an English speaking place and very nice friendly so that was a very good option but the obvious time was not good for these kind of guys when I gave shear I was it more able to relate they brought in somebody to give this year I was giving it was definitely bigger Thomas Holcomb to me but he couldn't relate to these kind of guys so one point that in the middle of the year I went to my church aid satsang and I said you know not doing anything for these guys you gotta you have to do something for him you do it and I didn't know what that meant but I started doing it and for pollination for almost 40 years that's what I've been doing well so like who is the target audience what is the or David Bob the real Lord loves bucker is a kid who has experienced the Shiva at high school but for whatever reasons was never would never really took off in in in the learning and the things he's missing a little more attention part of the problem I haven't they haven't Shiva's steadiest he she was a geared to the to the outstanding Tommy them that's 20% of class and the other 80% is totally lost and even though the editor said this bright to Tom be them that are good but they may lack certain basics and I said something I do I'm gonna just get these guys is a radical thing you're saying because I've been told many times if you want obeys you Shiva you have to pretend you're an i-love-you Shiva or Bay's students won't want to go to you because bass students want to go to what they think is an olivey Shiva and if you think you're a busy Shiva than the Dollard boys come have you found that to be true to a degree yes but they drew this the the the mid sees what's going on really America is is there many kids like that special for the more you she replaces more your huge places I have to mention that part of a part of my success was the year I was I was developing the idea a emotion-wise woman was on sabbatical from eula he was the receiving you illumise on sabbatical I was in LA then and I knew he was a well-known Makani and as the idea was developing I spoke to him and he helped me like pinpointing things I want to do and because of him I was able to get five tell me in my first year his grades graduates and the truth is that's another another kind of kid I wanted I know that I want the kids for more you see backgrounds but a kid from EULA or less he/she which schools that would not fit in into the regular Sheba's would be also ideal students and the true that some of those kids ended up in shallow room and can be on the they were totally lost and we give the attention that they needed and yet you used to go to NCS why to recruit which is exactly the opposite of what you're talking about NCS wine has in it in those days and a little less knew in NZ on his I was an NCS quite and this is my Canada yes Eastern Canada those things its own region Eastern Canada make you feel at home iceberg there's like there's an NC sy product that's really lost in you she was in those days he was a kid from the from public school but he's been an NCIS wife or for four or five years he was doing all the mitzvahs he was learning a little bit and he was it was not about you in that sense but he didn't have learning background so those kids kids right right into heard of it the lowest year but they were there were stars there was those kids were always stars which is an amazing thing because you're a model that you described is not made for those kids but again I know kids who came in who couldn't read so all you need it was all we have to do is it was at a lowest year as we practice reading and much of this reflects on my gooosh in high school still but in a few months the kids were around the same level as kids who Matthew she was most out of life amazing amazing now you said that one of the things that attracted you to have a time was their study of Musa what was wrong with you because it's it's a double you do it in the achievers when there's a Moses rose everybody works out now I know from personal experience because time it was the opposite was you know I was talking to a guy once and I said you know they tell a joke you know they say in another yeshiva doing mrs. singer your little mission aboard and I kind of time doing mission to Bruce and they learn more sir so guy says to me you know it's funny you say that I still the most amazing what suhaka on the mr. Breuer the know who is attracted to most I mean most is a bad word listen is I'm gonna yell at you I'm gonna tell you you're bad I'm gonna tell you you know your shortcomings I think that the way there are she was that saw presented muster it was a was it was it was it was very very well taken in other words muster was a was a was it's a way to prove yourself now that wasn't pointing out where you were bad that was pointing out how how good I could be and I guess that's the vodka I lost hard though but how good could you be and look if I just think about a little more I'll be a little bit better and the improvement is is very clear your own improvement and the connection through brush mom and aunt learning changes you know I tell you it's interesting you say that because of the connection with the wrister Shiva I used to teach in a program called or logo la where I would train rabbis who are going out into the field that answer basic questions and and more than ones like I would say I can give over the answer you said but I can't do that little laughs you do at the end we go you know and that seals the deal so I said the reason it feels the deal is because all it's saying is I actually believe in what I'm saying so that in order for most of the work the person who's giving it over has to be able to epitomize the concept of Musa otherwise it's I'm telling you things that they'd have no no shakers you have no role model you have no place to see that that's we was I can't divert it for a second I read a very interesting article in the ethical essay about it was it was um it was written it was written it was it was a bow and sang is so I'm gonna include the mich bahasa way you could do anything you wanted this podcast but it was a I really a it was thought it was a biography sort of America there's Edsel and the story but if a simple story the reference when I was sitting Shiva for his wife and Rajesh was there or Shama bobby was there and differentiate was were there and somebody mentioned to to reflect that do you remember that time that the elder yelled at him in public very much and we're talking about that so if all be said that I'm fresh he would speak to a Talmud like that about know Tom be them and mayor father said the reason that kids can do it today because we realized that the author who really loved us and whatever you said we really love this as long as the loved was there you could say I really wanted and I would say very similar to the Russian Shiva Shiva was not a charismatic speaker he was not a very great speaker he wasn't he wasn't charismatic personality I mean his learning was very good if you had the patience to learn it as much it was good to get and listen to it but I think that the fact that we knew he loved us so much made that made the whole difference that's the biggest problem the movement is that to my mind it's the same problem with a psychologist in order to be a good psychologist you have to have a natural hush and a column so then you can learn methodology and learn how to apply it but if you don't have that natural hush so you can read all the books you can do it but you're gonna miss the main point I feel it's the same thing with a mascara or about about Musa that in order to be effective you have to have that natural ability to be able to understand people and then you can use all the muscle techniques to able to use it otherwise you'll come up with the wrong conclusions mantis I think part of the natural ability is concerning care so it's been said by bigger people than me that the Muslim Ummah is dead can you still teach mustard to this generation the way we teach mustard is right right we learn we learn to do this once farm but we Lea the Raima have to and we saw them a practical example how does this apply to me what is what is him so sure I'm saying to me he's not speaking to the greatest son that you give me speaking somebody like me how does it apply how does it affect me and and the view I think if you make the applications and as you just said if the applications apply to all of us including me when I am as the Rebbe learning mustard and the Talmud learning mozzarella and and I feel that applies to me thinking that goes over to the Talmud also so can you can you make Buckman today in to mention because correct me if I'm wrong you're in this business houses are done 39 years 39 years have you noticed a change in the quality of the buckle of those I try not to go back to your high school and you look at the graduating classes who were your age when they were graduating I mean back in the 50s and they also like your grandparents so this there's a different Mitzi's of above today like first of all what changed and second of all how do you how do you bring a cross how can you take this person and turn him in from a golem and I mean golem in the sense of the whole logic sense of a of an unfinished clay those you who are familiar with terrorism you've never seen it because time but they take a golem and turn it into into a clay you know that I think they used to be at least some amount of preparation that was done in the home and their window in the schools you know and I've spoken to high schools where they say our whole goal is just to get there it's show now it's the entire purpose of four years of high school is to get them there itself and let them make a mention of it you know let them do something with him so so what's the change you've seen over these forty years and and and how do you how do you work with the product that's in front of you now I mean first of all the most drastic changes that forty years about ten years it's the phones and if you get anybody's attention even if they're not on the phone is very difficult today can it be outlawed yeah and she worried that we don't know if I was because that'll just be Ken Mouse right out loud on the bail out on the base matters but it's part of the guys lives so their their life is centered around the phone and all the things that said how would you say it's true that they're not so interactive with people and they're not so social and and its really true and it's quite a part of what we have to do is is to break that and part of it is is is the fact that the mountain base matters part of it is to talk the guy is one-on-one that's part of it is we do a lot of tours we love to you let me do a lot of them I it has to be bring them in talk to them now once the once again involves it's much easy but you take away the deals that they're sitting on the bus and they were playing on their phones and and sometimes I don't want to go often it's really the problem today but the more of the more the red bag can get the guys involved the more we can be successful I wish I could say that every black guy is successful but the bhavish em there are guys were very successful okay there's no way to turn back the clock what define us no I don't think so and antacid the phone's adjust so it doesn't really work too well cos and yeah they where ever used to find the wrong stuff they find the phones you know get it out to them so but you got to work with the guys and I think that we pay attention to them and they see there might be a life outside the film that well but that's the that's the main change in other words we look at our own you look at the change that from 30 years ago 20 years ago to 10 years ago there were mostly the sense the most drastic change the other change obviously is is the lack of morals in the society which affects everybody you say I like it's in yeshiva it doesn't really affect them you're exposed to all kinds of things that that we grew up in and I mean I grew up in Canada and I and I was a Rayleigh teenager really person but it's so much stuff you're exposed to today when you walk down the street and certainly with the television when they show on television today is way beyond anything I would see in movies in those days so it's it's you're exposed to everything and that's admit it's much harder to get through the guys but you feel it's possible with a lot of diligence and and yes unfortunately I don't think we're successful used to bheemavaram there is success so let's let's say we take a buffer what's what's success define success it depends on the book oh that's for sure we can't say anything success is the same for everybody but again everybody does I'm gonna get with a slightly impossible to say that my my team that might might my minimus was says I wanna tell her every gonna Husky story from 30 years ago yet wherever I doctor I know you'll correct me if I have the story wrong but this is how I remember the story Rehberg doctor Avram torski said there are two types of you Shiva's and seminaries in Israel those that have a drug problem and those that don't know they have a drug problem so you organized the meeting his instruction of all the issues to say how do we deal with the problem of drugs and you she remember one said we don't have a problem Shiva number two said neither do we and everybody else said us either so obviously when we say we're gonna deal with each person individually it's not really true right there's a square hole and the goal is to turn everybody into a square peg and fit them into that square peg I mean that's how I've seen education certainly with my own children and certainly in the world in general that everybody I was having this discussion with my scalp once was throwing out a kid because he was coming late then and and and he was he was caught back playing soccer I don't know why you throw the kid so I said you're the mesquita you obviously you understand that your job is to work with the buffer so let's discuss how we're going to help this boy no there's nothing to talk about we're throwing him out I said no no no you're like the altar like a bureau home you know like as we go you understand the crisis of a buffer and you're gonna figure out what do know if you want you to talk to the Shiva that's not the receivers job that's your job to figure out how to get through to everybody she drives to teach him Torah yours is to figure out how to work with him I told him it was in Israel I said you know in English we have an expression if the only tool you have is a hammer then every problem is a nail so everybody tends to look at everything from this extremely narrow thing and you're saying I have a yeshiva of fifty boys and I have fifty gold posts set up by 50 finish lines for each one of these kids unfortunates well yes it's a weekend thing I mean I why is that unfortunate I would like to sign off for now be calm I would like to thank everybody - she even continued but it doesn't work like that some guys will never be convinced as I am I minimal goal is that they should work more connected to Lehman that are more connected and some going to be very connected sometimes a little at least let him go - with Lenin once a week remember that I wanted to feel a connection Texas journal when I started connection to the Dom is wrong that's my goal and I think pretty much it is we're successful that can you point to a kid and say this kid is a failure oh whether you is there were failures I could kids if they marry that one or two kids in there maybe that's a failure I would say a kid who won't send his kids to 82 she was sent to a good public schools a family that's pretty rare man and that's happened it's a rough world out there it's a rough world out there so if now see this connects to your experiences I have bought from over my house at my shop stable and you know sometimes I'm a little more animated usually it's in the winter you know Chavez little earlier so I asked questions now I just sort of said they're in a half days you know and I start you know going to sleep already right after the soup but but then I asked him what you see value in X Y Z and then I say why did you choose that yeshiva once I met Ibaka he happened to be my nephew yeah who went to a particular Shiva even though his Rebbe could have got them into brisk I said why'd you go there and he says because it was the best place for my learning in all the years I'm asking this question that's the only person I ever a good my shout out that's my my nephew Arya Orlovsky zap exotic I don't know if he watches this is cuz he's so busy you know learning and busy with his children and things I don't know if he has time for this but but I'll give him a shout out anyway yeah but I was the only time the answers I usually get is either there's that's what my friends are going or it's it's go good it's got a good name that's it well I never hear anybody saying I'm choosing this yeshiva cuz this is the best place for my learning I think that most kids when they graduate high school and I don't really think of it especially the kids that come to our table and then we're learning is that say it's nice to learn medicine that's not what I'm going for sure so what's your appeal when you go to a buffer that's great tell your story I used to work for heard of it and I remember my first recruiting trips so in November you know the planes are filled with Russia Shiva and represented the Shiva flying back and forth across America trying to recruit Buckland so a couple of them felt bad for me I always know with this you know and they say I'll give you a piece of advice whatever you do don't tell the boys they gotta change nobody wants to hear they're gonna change which I find astounding so I walked into the next school and I told the story and I said if you think you're gonna spend a year learning Torah and Eretz show and not change that we don't send you back at the end of the year as a better Jew as a better person as a better son as a potentially better husband and father then we didn't do our job I got no boys you know what they were right nobody wants to change nobody wants to to think about their future in that way that's join they come also we have to be very gentle how to approach that so what do you appeal you go to a boy and you say come to UC Board of Ed and I think the main appeal that we have and that really appreciates it will give you a spend time with will try to find your needs and deal with them and I really do that whether that sells all the time is a different question oh yeah now as an NC is why we used to make Shepperton em and we try to get in secular people and the way we did this was essentially by line that's that's what we did so we say you want to come to a Chaba tone says what is it oh it's a really fun weekend says well what are we gonna do we have a band and that's true sorry night for two hours we have a pin we left out there the other 34 hours because if I tell people well we're gonna pray and then we're gonna eat and then we're gonna dance boys with boys girls with girls and then we're gonna pray and then we're gonna have Torah classes and then we're gonna eat and then we're gonna sing and then we'll get up in the morning I'm gonna pray for a very very long time and then we're gonna eat then we're gonna dance I mean you know what do you say it's not gonna go so unfortunately I would misrepresent I was unfortunately I you said put our foot straight forward I I'm proud misrepresent think this is a good good mama for Shabbos you never said it was time but it's not one of the Amos says but then person comes to hello says I'll convert if you can make me the going god I said sure no problem come on it yeah it was it was a misrepresentation but he was confident of his product and I figured if I could get him and I would I would do it you know my tour in Asia tour I was giving this beginners class and there's this one guy who's just like fuming the whole class you know and afterwards I said to him what's the Matta cos I met this guy at the wall I think his name was Mae Schuester I said to him how do I get to the central bus station he says come with me I know this classroom I said I'm really sorry guys no I actually really enjoyed it and I think he stayed for a while you know so so if you are going to present things and it could be that you know the best thing is not necessarily what the person themselves not what that's for sure true and selling the product is not always that easy and you sell you sell trips to around them yourself that's a nice place and the food is good and you know you'll get attention we try to make it work so well burger now ski speak to the American buffer who's watching this and by the way I have a very large audience of American Bachmann and there are those who are going to be coming to its shell and are going to be considering their options and tell them why they should consider are there what you're gonna tell them this Yeshiva has to offer you personally is first I'm gonna say that if your bucker was gonna go to a pun of each or ever um or any strong Ashima don't come to our dove and I don't want you but if your buffer who wants to learn who needs a little more help to get there the butler wants to connect to a bein a buffer wants to connect there to stroll and about her once direction for life I think we're a place will give you what will work with you will find your needs will direct you and I think it really can make serious differences in your life okay I disagree completely because you have these bokram who come tear its shell and go to big issue vism I gotta mention any by name they got a big issues and they decided the ripe old age 21 they don't need a rebel you anymore they don't need any Hydra huh don't anybody you build them I think that's a mistake we will carve a seaman was already a receiver and gave it up to become a talented look over time yeah we have it's it's Allah blazer was the rub of st. Petersburg the capital of all the Russia's and he gave it up to become a Talmud verbis or salamba so I think that tell a buckler ah yo could go sit the base mannish no Ruby's gonna look at you know is gonna Thea you Normandy buckram I've met who they met the rest of Shiva at their husana because he insisted on being Masada contusion and the estimate the point I'm out so you you're going to tell a strong bar for going to a strong yeshiva that he doesn't need a Rebbe and he doesn't need drafting he does little you does either Java but I think that that the or andhave Experian you're gonna get that in cult are you should know but I just put I think you're a double experience is beyond what he needs so here's to find you see where that'll do that and are there you is that doing it maybe then maybe it's time to create uh you know or add of adelio you brought up a topic very interesting I just had a discussion with two buckram that one was kills me by the way it's one things that kills my brother was biased three years when Brock was biased through their their Matsuya on them they learned they're very dedicated and I told him okay it's time to move on in life and I said you know you're the the son of ha ha shoe all I mean the Orisha shoe all you're the editor of the Fox it's time to be summary I've been the table of the line so they came back to me said they couldn't find the line and they went different Sheila's and I said they were nice that was learning but they didn't feel that she was working with the tummy they didn't feel a connection they want to stay and the to Zion I never used to hold on the bottom after two years and this one was buckled by to explain to the by two years and what's number third this was thirteen what's coming forward and I really don't know what the same because they say there's certain things are gonna get here that we're not gonna get someplace else and they're probably right I know another yeshiva that has a very fine reputation there was also basically two years and they extended it three or four years because they said where am I gonna send them me how many constant has I've gone to where the Masada condition was a high school Rebbe because that was the last Rebbe he had a casual with anyway I like I say from the time I was an NC so I regional director and I had the opportunity to descend buckram toward avid I've I have admired the very good now skis work and you know what can I tell you there's for those of you who don't remember this very very black period of history you and I it's already so you may not remember it but it was it was such a black eye I think about it now and I still get cold sweats Koch decided to change their formula and they came out with new coke you didn't know about this and it was horrible and people were hoarding old coke they with people who like their gas stations if you fill up will give you again and eventually they went back to the classic I would big believe in the classics I think that you know the ability to be able to teach it the way and I heard this story from a rich eight I'm sure you heard it too that David wanted to hire a be in this Rebbe sent to abduct labor what's the found division but over time his resume and he added in and I speak English so I can relate to the buckram now obviously this was a time when everybody in America spoke Yiddish you know you speak Yiddish yeah I can say yo yeah and is this fair of Matson but anyway but devid looked at this and said I must speak English does that mean I can't relate to the bottom so what can I tell you you know there's a universality to people people remain the same technology changes society changes but people are always the same so that's it it was a privilege for me to be able to have evergreen offski with me a friend of decades and I am an admirer of his work and all the good things that he does and that's it for this week if you want to find out more about this show go to reveal a ski that calm slash podcast if you want to make a comment on this particular episode go to come slash podcast slash 39 if you want to find about upcoming events go to River Alaska calm slash events if you want to contact a relapse key go to Alaska calm slash contact if you want to sponsor an episode of the rabri Alaska show go to reveal a ski calm slash podcast and click on the sponsor an episode and if you want more information about you Shiva or dove in going to Orie or David Ohr David that or.org Trent that's a website a website that is a website that sees those you who have technologically passed over websites Ohr David David yeah that org dad look when I was working for a dove it I went to rent a car once and and they said what's your name I said David Orlovsky and they said what's your company I said or David they said oh that's very clever but it was really named for me anyway that's it for this week I'm Deborah Lasky and I want to thank our special guests over you so you can have ski and this is the very last ski show [Music]