Rav Elchonon's Revolutionary Creation of 2 Dimensions of Shlichus - {DH Iyun Sugya Nedarim 35b}

Okay, good afternoon everyone. Okay, I want to share with you an important point here on the brings. Are these ourim or the of heaven? The gar asks what's anime. The gar says ankamina is if the isser to give han to the is can the coen do for the isel if he's his then he's doing you a favor. The ra asks the following question. If you look in the garra in kaducian the gumar kadian concludes as follows. The gar concludes says they have to be the our is it possible to have something that we are not able to do and they are able to quite right. In other words, we're not able we are not able to do the mikdash. So how the how can the khanim do it for us? So the concludes that are so asks what's the sh over here even though inad concludes based on that there because if you're going to say there are is there something that we are not able to do and they are able to do nevertheless we're asking over here we want to sh from aishna or aa in other words we know logically they have to be here we're asking can we prove this from a mishna or aa that's the ina nadarim However, let me try to bring it up onto the screen. Says something else entirely inad says I'm putting it up on the screen and says question. It's mashma here that we have a conclusive conclusion. Why does the garim not bring what it says in kaduc the of that? So first Tyus brings the same answer that therm says brings this is the in many places that does not bring it's looking to find a proof from a even though it could technically bring a proof from an that's what the ran said. However, says something else is like this. We don't understand is like this. We know they have to be because something that we are not able to do and they could do. But the Shila is very good. We know they're are they only and not our at all then would be that if the was also done he couldn't do it if he was then would be if they are our then they can't do it without ori Let's see what the gersa should be or um some say it might be. You have to put in let's see over here on the bottom. May. In other words, the shila is are they only or are they also then would be could they do it without the if they're also they need the if they're not then they don't need the in other words this answer of is different than the says it's the same shila the gar and kaducian has a logical conclusion and argamarad wants to bring a proof from a mission or but then says that yes we've already put half of the matter to rest namely certainly the are the question is are they also and only says they have to be at least to some extent but not nec but it doesn't mean necessarily that they're not also So this is a very big discussion over here. What what exactly is this idea that maybe they're also acting on our behalf? So the ask ontois that what do you mean the gar and kaducian says you can't say they're because of if there are how could they be our in any capacity whatsoever to do something that we ourselves are not able to do in other words's kasha is the garan kadition comes to a conclusion they have to be working for heaven if they're working for us how can they do something for us that we ourselves can't do so what's the answer the question is could they also be working for us. How could they also be working for us to do something that we ourselves can't do? So this is where Raban comes in. He says something astounding. Let's see if we could figure it out. This is in Rabban. Raban is found in Simmon. Now it's interesting. There are not that many sim in the ketar the last sim pay. So this is really toward the end of Raban. Raban brings the kaducian. He brings the kadushian's conclusion. He brings tous's kasha that in the darim we don't have a shila. Why in in a darum we have a shila we don't have a conclusion. Why doesn't it bring the conclusion of kadush and tyus in yuma? I guess I don't know why he doesn't bring in and kaducian answers that we definitely know there is maybe they're also to which asks you could still ask so says based on a principle that he advanced earlier he says there are two types of agencies namely where without the act wouldn't help the has to give himself over to the in other words the needs to invest the power that he has in the and regarding this mechanism we say something that that the person themsself can't do. How could Okay. In other words, when the needs to invest his whole essence into the this will only work if the male himself could do it. That's when we say Raban says there are two kinds of one is the mash gives over to the his capacity let's say to marry a woman the male gives over to the male's capacity to marry the woman and the acts on his behalf in that case we say how can I do something for you that you yourself can't That's by the kind of that I need to give over to you my capacity. But what if I don't have to give over my capacity to you? What if we only have to attribute a certain act to the male? In other words, the does the act and the mad that the could do it himself. But the needs that the attributed to the for this we don't apply the rule that if I can't do it myself if the can't do it himself the can't do it for him. If we say that you're just my and you're not working for heaven at all. So then what does that mean? You're not working for heaven. What are you doing? So the answer is I need to invest you with a certain capacity over here. Well, I can't invest you with a capacity if I myself can't do it. If you're if it's just then the is needed to certify the if the is without the carbon the carbon is In other words, if we assume that are and they're acting for us, that means their only capacity here is through the isam. So the problem then is how could how could they be invested with a power to act if the isam themselves can't do it. So therefore the garian says and the garra concludes they must be acting for heaven. But now that they're acting for heaven, now we have another shila. The shila is okay. They're working on behalf of heaven. So heaven has invested them with the capacity. But we still need to attribute the act back to the is don't we? If they're also our agents, we don't need them to act as an agent to make the carbon kosher because they're it's a kosher carbon. Heaven ratified them. All we need them to do is attribute the act to the is for that. We don't say that the mice is to the like when we say so that we don't care about let's I think I I think we can explain it very clearly we start with the gar and kaduc thear and kaduca wants to know they're khan are bringing carbonas in the b mikdash who exactly is giving them the ability to make to to bring a carbon who are they what's a what's a kayen it's It's not like it's not like this coin has to bring a carbon. He didn't do an aa he didn't make a nar. What's he doing in the mikdash? The shila is are they invested with power from heaven or are they invested with power from the person who appointed them. So says who invests them with power? It has to be heaven. It can't be the person who's to bring the carbon because the person who's to bring the carbon can't invest them with a power that the person themsself doesn't have. The person who has to bring the carbon can't bring the carbon. So if he can't bring the carbon, he can't invest them with power. So what makes a eligible to go to a B mikdash and bring a carbon is heaven. Okay. Now the question is does that carbon need to be attributable back to the Israel that it should be considered like the Israel brought it or do we not need that? Do we not need to attribute it back to the Israel? the coen brings it. It doesn't have to be considered like the isra brought it. As long as somehow the isra made sure it was brought, it doesn't have to be considered that the isra brought it. So now we're no longer dealing with the question of who invested the cyain with the ability to bring a carbon. If that was the question, the gumar and kaducian already dealt with that question. The gumar kaducian says who invested the kayen? It has to be heaven. It can't be the is the doesn't have the power to invest in the ken. But now the shila is is it critical that when the coen brings the carbon we could say it's being brought on behalf of the isra that the carbon is attributable back to the is so that's a shah what's the would be whether the isra is mud or from the ken the nafkamina be would you need the of the but we wouldn't now say oh that the is can't do and the ken could do there is because the reason the kayinka do it is it because God invested him with the power there's only one limited question now are do they need to attribute it back to the isel regarding the second element of we will not apply is there something that the could do that the can't do that's only regarding if they're needed if we need to understand what gives the the ability to act we don't have a problem what gives the the and the kind the ability to act. Heaven gives them the ability to act. The the limited question is do we need to attribute that act back to the that's the whether are only or are they also we ask well if there's an element of then how can they do it for the is who couldn't do it himself. No, that's only a problem when we're dealing with the element of where I need to invest you with power. You've already been invested with power from heaven. Now, all that's needed is we need to attribute it back to the regarding that says we do not apply the problem of the gar in that the cannot do and the yeah that's what we got today. That's Raban's explanation for in kaducian apparently it's also in Yuma. So there are two suggest and shas kaducian is dealing what what fuels the ability of a to act in the mikdash that heaven deals with okay does that need to be attributed in any way to the is that's the shilah by the way seems to have a very strong that no kahanim are in fact and they are attributing back to the israel Well, and the only carbon they could do by isarap because you don't need das. So the garra seems to be saying that even though what fuels the kahanim's abilities what the kaducian says there is still an element of also have an amazing day everyone. If you find yourself near Cedarhurst, our Shul M is having a annual barbecue um dinner campaign launch and everyone's cordially welcome and invited. Thank you. Have a good day everyone. Cult recording stopped.