Daf Hashavua - Nedarim 33b

Okay, good evening friends. We're continuing in we're learning. Actually, this gumar should be very familiar to you because we had basically this gumar inubis and this exact gumar appeared at the end of the Mishna says as follows. The Mishna says we'll start it again. If you answer yourself to get from your friend, you can't get Han from your friend. You could pay his you could pay his debt and you could return his. What if normally you pay the you pay the finder for returning? If the guy doesn't charge you, now he's saving you money. You know, it's very interesting if it's it's only because it's something that you would normally pay for and he's saving you money. But paying a debt we do not view as something that you would pay for. The fact that somebody pays off your debt is not considered saving money. It's only if someone returns your object and it's something you would normally pay for and you don't have to pay. So that's what uh Yehuda was asking was asking you know why is paying a debt not like a place where you would pay money. Wouldn't you pay wouldn't you pay money to you know let's say someone had credit card debt. Say they had $1,000 of credit card debt. Wouldn't they pay I don't know $600 $700 $800 to get off the debt? $100 to get off the debt. I mean, you would think so. So, we'll have to see in the Gmorra what the logic of this is. So, in a place where normally play, then the guy, in other words, let's say you say that I'm now to get h from you. If you return my object and I would normally pay for it, I will I'm now to get h from you. So, what do I do? I got to pay the money to he what does that mean in other words you return let's see the says on that so let's say like this I say I'm not going to get enough from you and you return my object so I should pay you so I could one way out of it is I pay you but what if you don't want to take money then I pay hectish I I give the money to saddaka right so in other words uh that's the way the best way around it is if it's something normally that people pay for so I should pay you for I'll pay you for it okay the garra says what's the logic here this the ran said we saw it yesterday is going on paying off the shekel and paying the debt the reason why it's mut is because I'm not giving you anything. I'm just removing the nuisance of the mala. Now, why are you allowed to pay my shael? Because either way, it's not like you're mahani that you're giving me in the carbon cuz even if I don't pay the sack, I'll still have a on of the carbon. I you're paying off my debt. No, it's Ariana. Who is this Tana who holds is says he this is the opinion ofan it's the opinion ofan who says is motor let's see the ran uh the run we read it yesterday says that if if somebody supports hurts the wife of their friend that a husband has to pay his wife, give his wife miso. If somebody goes and gives her miso, it's like he put his money on the horn of a deer. That lots of luck ever seeing it again. So when you pay off the debt that a husband owes his wife that's called that's what we did yesterday to which the now says it could even go according to everyone meaning even if you argue on and you say that if you pay a woman then you're allowed to go collect from the husband because you are mahanim him in the case of our Mishna where you're usher to get Han from your friend. So you know why he's allowed to pay your debt to we're talking about we're it was lent unconditioned not to have to pay back. Let's say you know those are always the best lenders. They lend the money and they don't um demand payment. So everyone would agree that if the condition of the loan was here I'm lending you the money you don't have to pay back if somebody pays back the debt uh that's not called being mahana the person even if out of courtesy the person would would pay it up but since he's not obligated to that's not considered being mahim by the way we had this exact gum in okay we had this kamar we had the of and now we're going to have a we had at the end of myan where exactly did kanan say his teaching the we learned in a this Mishna is found in the end of a guy who went overseas and he has to support his wife while he was away someone got up and supported his wife says lots of luck he lost his money he lost his money and they say you should swear how much you spent and collected said like However, said very good. Okay, these are the two opinions by the way. Take a look in the even say that the to return to this guy the value of the debt that he paid for him. by someone who answers that is in our talking about where he gave it on condition not to have to pay back when he lent him the money he stipulated that when the money was lent the stipul ulation was that he doesn't have the ability to force it to be paid back. Only if you want to. When the person who the nether was made against pays off the debt, it could be that the person who is not allowed to get would have ultimately paid up out of embarrassment since if he wanted he didn't have to pay. He's not giving anything to the person who he's not to get from. You hear this? So even though he would have paid, that's not called a hana because he didn't have to pay. He didn't have to pay. He didn't have to pay. Then the run has a I understand if you pay someone's debt. What about the case where you pay someone shekel? What situation is there where what you didn't have to pay the shekel? Everyone has to pay the soar says he would interpret the in a case where you tak if you send payment of the shekel and it's stolen or lost. So in that kind of case the RA says taka you would be putter and even if it's the common practice to pay it nevertheless that's not called being mahana somebody okay that's how the run interprets that we didn't have to do that run but still it's okay we did a run an unauthorized run fine now the garra discusses why the [Music] rav Ravoia said it's going likean and ra said it's going like everyone. We had inubus. The only thing is inubus it says it a little differently. If you remember that inubus it says it differently. I give you a very big hug. Okay. Ra did not say like because wanted the mission to go like everyone. He wanted the Mishna to go even like those who argue on Kanan. The Mishna didn't say it's going like Kanan. So therefore Rava was uh is reasonable in interpreting according to everyone. Why didn't say like Rava? Why is Raosha lacking the Rava? Why? Because Raosia would say that according to Rabba, what's the Mishna talking about taka? If you pay someone's debt and you're mud, you're not allowed to. Why? Because you're being mahim. In what case is the Mishna saying you're allowed to pay his debt? in a case where it was stipulated that it does not it's a debt that doesn't have to be paid up. So that means you're saying that the Mishna is talking about where there was such a stipulation and that's when you are allowed to pay the debt but ordinarily you're not allowed to pay the debt. Well, maybe you know what? Um, Raisha didn't want to say that that's the case of the Mishna because if you're not allowed to pay the debt in a situation where it's a debt that has to be paid, we would make a you're not to pay the debt. Even in a case where the debt does not have to be paid less you come to pay the debt when the debt has to be paid says it's that not to pay a debt that doesn't have to be paid less you come to pay the debt that doesn't have to be paid and therefore we we prefer to say it's going like that you're always allowed to pay the debt because it's so the round says If you say that could pay the debt in a case where it was stipulated that it doesn't have to be paid, it's logical to make he might come to pay. He might come to pay a debt where the debt has to be paid. Therefore, if the Mishna is the you would never be able to pay it. There's no case that it's permitted. So must be that you could always pay the debt. Now the ran raises a very interesting point and that point is that the way the garra sets this up over here, this is not like the gumar inubus. The Gumar Suba says that the would say you can't pay a debt even though it was stipulated that he's not out to pay that he doesn't have to pay because since he would be embarrassed not to pay you're giving him that's the which I'm sure you remember by the look of your faces I could tell you remember especially the people I can't see but when I could see that on your face you remember it like you were learning yesterday. Oh, there you go. See that? Um the the says look. Okay, so that's how the sets it up. Now there's another shila that the ram discusses that regarding supporting someone else's wife thatan said it's like the rajba says that you're only cannot collect if you say explicitly I am giving you this because of the mazo of your husband. So then Kanan says that you cannot get your money back. But if you give a gift stam then you could collect it because I'm not giving it as a mat. I'm giving it as a and the disagrees with that. Okay. But uh we're already well beyond the the legislated run. Okay. Let's continue uh in the garra. The garra says you're allowed to return the aveda. You're allowed to return the aveda. So presumably that means even though you're doing me a favor, you're returning me the aa and you're not I'm not get enough from you. You're allowed to return the aida. So we have a how to understand this and argue about this one says you know what the case is the case is the property of the returner is on the one who it's being returned to. So I can I positively c an c an could return the to you when my possessions are to you. Why? Because I'm not giving you my possessions. I'm giving you your possessions. I'm giving you your thing an article that is his. So if I'm if my possessions are also to you, I could return your Aveda cuz I'm not returning my possession. I'm returning your possession. But if if the possessions of the owner of the article are to the returner, you can't return it to me. You can't return. Why? Because I, the owner of the article, am doing you a favor by you returning the article to me. What favor am I doing for you? Now that you're involved in returning the article to me, all the 900 people who send you links to their charity campaign, you could tell them, "Go jump in the lake. I'm taking the mitzvah." You know how much money you saved? Even if you just give let's say $18 or $36 to each charity campaign, but since you get about 900 a day, you've basically saved, you know, thousands of dollars. So actually I am benefiting you by being the recipient of you returning to me my cuz since you're doing a mitzvah for me you're exempt from this is called I'm being holds like this has an amazing idea what is the about somebody who is returning an object is heam or a shak simply should be a sham because he is guarding it and he's not getting paid says no you're getting paid. What are you getting paid? You're getting paid the fact you're in a mitzvah. That's a h it's not a major h cuz what's the likelihood that while you're actively engaged in returning the object a sedak opportunity will come your way. It's not a likely thing, but that is a that renders you. If my possessions are ushered to the returner then if then if you can't get enough from me you're not return it to the other opinion is not only if your possessions are to me are you allowed to return it but even if my possessions are to you could return it aren't you because by returning my object you're benefiting that You're exempt from sodaka. You are benefiting. That benefit is only a benefit regarding rendering you but not regarding real. Why not? The other opinion is even if the you could return it. Why? What about the common? It's not not common. and you can get it a solicitation right then. I don't know maybe Bisman would be different. But um let's see the run. Let's see the holy run. Okay, here we go. We're five lines from the bottom. If I'm returning your object, I'm just giving you your thing. I But now you're having now your object is being returned to you [Music] now. So you'll say but by me returning it to you it's not going to get ruined or it's not going to get damaged. That's also in other words you giving me the a you're giving me my thing I by giving it to me and it's secure you're protecting it from damage that's not a positive damage by the way just to point out let's say I make that um I can't get enough from you and a lion is coming to my property to ruin that guy would be allowed to chase it away. I mean, that's the obvious uh the obvious implication. Anyway, when you return, you're exempt from giving a coin to an Now, let's think for a moment. If the possessions of the owner of the aveda are user to the returner, the returner can't return it cuz he he's he's being mah that what that if sodaka comes he doesn't have to pay it. So one second. So he would be allowed to pay your debt because that's but you can't return that to him because he's saving you from having to give sodaka. That's not mar. Sounds like paying a debt. You're not being mahanami. Exempting me from saddaka. You're being Mahanami. That's hard to wrap my head around. You know, in other words, I have a credit, somebody has a credit card debt. You pay the credit card company, you're not mahanami. You give me a mitzvah so I don't have to give sodaka. So, think about it. Look how indirect this is. You know, imagine there was an appeal in the shul and everyone's under peer pressure to give. So if the guy said you can't get enough from me, he'd be allowed to give the money for the appeal. He's not allowed to give the money for the appeal. He's not allowed to give the money. Not only that, he can't render you a bit because then you would be putter. Is he allowed to give you a lul of an because if he gives you of an now he now you're from giving sodaka during that time that's an amazing idea when he returns your aveda also the fact that he's returning my I'm giving him that of returning a he's choosing to return the it's amazing when he returns the Why is it dependent? Is it like a So what does the other opinion hold? that we should say don't return it this case. So then why is he since it's possible that he'll come and you'll be na from him. I I So here's the thing. Maybe someone could explain to me how could it be that you're not right. Let's say according to Kanan, let's say the Mishna like the way interprets the Mishna that it's going likean and the reason why you're allowed to pay off a debt is because it's oh you can only pay off a debt. But if the possessions of the owner of the lost object are user to the returner, then he can't return the why because even though you're allowed to pay off his debt, that's not called Hana. But if I render you put from giving sodaka, I am giving you Hana. So making you put from giving sodaka, I'm giving you Hana. But paying off your debt is not h I mean a debt is is a a big oil. No it's but if I make you pot from sodak maybe the guy doesn't want to give sodaka. You're you're being mahana guy that you're making from saddaka. Maybe he he wouldn't give he he doesn't he has to give every single ani. Yeah very difficult to understand. Um, look in Tyus. Tyus on the bottom right hand sign apparently asked this question. If I seen what's the reason why it's not considered mahana somebody to pay off their debt the answer is cuz the guy could say you're not mahani I knew I would have sweet talked my way out of the debt I owe the guy a million dollars I would have gone to his house and said here here's a bowl of Cheerios we're best friends and he would have said I would have persuaded him. In other words, how could it be that paying off a guy's debt is not hana but exempting him from sedaka is hime says The one that pays the debt for him is sending away the lion. It is not definitely a damage. The one who returns it for says, "What would the be like this?" be if I make a I can't get enough from you and then I go into your wallet and I take money from your wallet and I pay off my debts. Well, you say, "Oh, I'm just I'm not I'm not being I'm not being n from you. I'm just chasing away a lion." No, but if I was the one I was telling you this similar Yehuda this morning. Yeah, this is what I was saying this morning. If I come and I take money out of your pocket to pay off my debt, then that's not because my involvement in it sort of renders it. So the in this case by it's not a third party. I'm going and I'm returning the Ara and I'm making myself from giving saddaka. So it's like I personally went into your pocket to pay off the money. So I'm being mak of value the same way if I would go into your wallet and pay off the debt that's I'm actively giving you returning the so now that is considered a benefit that I'm put from the it's like I went into your wallet and took money to give to the soud when you asked me this morning even though if I say I'm not sure if this was going to answer it, but I'm marrying you with the Hano that you get that you don't have to pay. I'm not sure this this I this I could say clearly. I'm not sure how it applies to Kadush, but at least I could explain Gumar Nadara and I that's my responsibility. I'm not responsible for the whole but yeah I think that's what Tyus is saying. Yeah, it's just focusing more on the B part like there's a B thing going on, right? I don't know what he means by that honestly. I hear those words are not really mash the way I'm explaining it. And also yeah saying like potential in one case as opposed to something practically happening in the case of the when he's performing the mitzvah. that what I mean let's get one thing thing to says that even though there's is not a h but if the debtor goes and takes money from someone and uses it to pay his debt that's asser right why But he's not getting hana. It seems like his involvement in it, the fact that he mean it's not han really. So why'd you do it? Obviously you want to do it. There's you're gaining because you did it. fact that you did it that means you're being na I mean in the question Tyus was asking the if the reason why it's not considered hana by paying a debt is it not buri because the guy would have wiggled out then certainly by the ani it's less buri because who says the ani would come. It's that's less h because who said he would come? to which Tyus answers, "But if the guy himself goes and he pays off the debt, by the way, maybe that means I'm not sure if he's saying this, but maybe that means if the guy that means he wouldn't have wiggled it out and the proof is cuz if he would have, why did he go and take money uh to return it to the uni?" Because in that case the fact that he returned the object to you does that mean it's very that doesn't mean it's very likely that the uni would have come to collect sodaka. I just think the fact that you go ahead and and return it I'm sorry and use the take money to pay a debt that indicates that you value it as a haha. So too, if you return the lost object, so you're creating this benefit, it's that would be considered a han. Okay, I'm going to hold it here and with your permission, I'm going to have a marav to pay off the debt, what happens? Is that considered? That's what you asked me this morning. be there and