Can You Be Mafsik Once The One Who Makes Hamotzi Eats? The Landmark Ruling of the Rema

Okay, good morning everyone. Shalom aleikhem, baruch haba'im. We're continuing Mishna Berurah dafa shvua. Now is a good opportunity to have in mind to mekayem the mitzvah d'oraita of Talmud Torah. Also now is a good opportunity to make sure you commit yourself not to bring your phone into shul. Because as of this morning Mashiach still hasn't come. And I signed up. Don't blame me. Maybe other things. But if you didn't sign up yet, you're holding it up. Sorry. I have I'm saying it nicely. I'm just saying you're holding it up if you didn't sign up yet. Okay. Um let's continue in Mishna Berurah siman kuf sameach zayin seif vav. In seif vav we saw we're in the middle of seif vav. You should eat immediately. And you should not talk between the brachah and achilah and if you talk, you have to go back again. Unless the conversation was about matters that you're making a brachah on. For example, you made a brachah on bread and before you ate, you said bring the salt or bring the dip or give to a plain tea eat or give food to the animal. Uh you don't have to if you were mafsik in any of these things, you don't have to make another brachah. The Ramah says "U'mikol makom l'achar achilah yaftzei klal. Achilah rishon shouldn't be mafsik at all." Let's see the Mishna Berurah v'im sach if you spoke "Afilu teiva achas" even one word. But if it's mayin dvarim "Afilu hifsek b'dvarim she'einam l'tzorech prusa samuchti" Um even if you spoke about matters that are not relevant to the piece of hamotzi rak may in you need suda it's about the meal in general. Even if you spoke to bring Kaylin that are needed for the meal, it's not a have sick. This that we did. Even that should be a mouth for lift up. Even our pass which is wheat and has spices in it that is pass can you don't have to wait until the salt is brought nevertheless since he wants the salt or he wants the dip it's may in you need suda. Whether he's poor or rich. Even if you didn't say give Let's say you say bring him his own bread become a marker may in you need suda. Let's say you say feed the animal. That's also may in you need the suda. You're not allowed to taste until you give to your animal. It's mash ma from here that even to muetes is also like the opinion of the base you say if not like the taz that only kabua is also. And the staff so far says could be so you say if that even to is also before you feed your animal. For this reason the Rabbi Mendel writes the Tshuvas that since the mazones of your animals upon you and the animals reliant on you, if you don't feed it, it will be tza'ar ba'alei chaim. So, it gave a zman kavua that the achila of the beheima is before you. Says Rabbi Akiva Eiger, this would apply for other ba'alei chaim that are in your reshus. Even birds and fish, where there's no tza'ar ba'alei chaim. But, a dog or a cat, that they could always get food from the garbage, you're allowed to eat before them. It could be nachon l'madakdek b'masechta l'hachlitam even them. And certainly, let's say your daughter adopted a stray cat against your own will, you're allowed to eat before the cat. I'm just saying, not that not that that has any specific relevance. Just pointing out. So, dog and a cat, it doesn't apply to it. The din that you're not to eat before your animal doesn't apply to a dog and a cat because there's food in the garbage. There's more food in your garbage usually than in your refrigerator. That's stam a klal. Okay. Um K'tuv al Magen Avraham b'Shem Sefer Chassidim, d'lishto adam kodem l'beheima. You're allowed to drink before an animal. You're not allowed to eat, but you're allowed to drink. K'dei d'chsiv b'Rivka, she amar l'Eved d'shesh say, "V'gam g'malecha ashka." Rivka said, "You drink, and then I'm going to give to your camels." What do you mean? What do you mean? Uh you have to feed the animal before the person. There's a big chasam sofer on this. What what's the raya? You have to feed your animal before you eat. Mayhechi tasi, when someone comes to your house as a guest, I need to I need to feed I need to feed your animal. I need to feed the guest's animal for before the guest. Mayhechi tasi, it's not someone's responsibility. What's the raya when it comes to drink? Drink, you're allowed to drink before your animal. This is someone else's animal. Yeah, but that's how the Mugging of Avram Paskins from the Safer Hasidim. Ein Besam Sofer al ha-Torah. Fine. Says the Rama, "Va'afilu im haya pas she'eino einaki, even if the bread was not wheat and now and doesn't have spices that tzaruch l'amalech and it needs salt, gam kein also have to come see the mad, it's also assur to be mafsik before you swallow. In other words, even something you mamash need, um l'chatchila you should not interrupt." You ready? Fasten your seat belts for the next Rama. I'm very into Rama lately, the Rama. People are undermining the Rama. Says the Rama, "V'ha d'im sach d'varim b'teilim, tzaruch l'achazo l'varech." This din, that if you have idle conversation and you speak between your hamotzi and eating, you have to go back and make a bracha and davka she's sach kodem she'achal hab'tzia. That's where you spoke before the ba'al bayis ate his piece. But if the ba'al bayis made hamotzi and then the ba'al bayis ate and then you asked, you know, "What what did the what did the Yankees do last night?" and you didn't eat the hamotzi yet, it's not a hefsek. It's not a hefsek. You're subordinate to the b'tzia. Once the b'tzia made the bracha and he put the hamotzi in his mouth, even though he is being motzi you in the bracha of hamotzi, so now how could I be mafsik? No. He already took care of the fact that he ate right after the bracha. I'm good. I will have a have a sicha hefsek. They're all yotzei with the eating of the beitzah. They don't even have to eat in the first place. They only do so l'chibuv mitzvah. That's a whopper. The Rama says that when somebody makes hamotzi and is motzi everybody in the bracha of hamotzi, first of all, once he eats, the other people could talk because they don't even have to eat the bread in the first They don't even have to eat the bread. They don't have to eat the bread. How much does the beitzah have to eat? mashahu mashahu No, din, he does not have to eat a k'zayis. He could eat a mashahu and speak. We saw in the Mishna Berurah last time, it's tov to eat a k'zayis. He's not m'chayev to. Now, this is an underrated Rama. This Rama has far-reaching reverberations. You'll will see soon. Okay? Let's go see the Mishna Berurah. Dafka, if the beitzah I know, it's interesting the Mishna Berurah changes the girsah here. I don't know why. I thought the way we have the Rama is very good. The din that the participants, if they speak, they have to go make a make a bracha, is if they speak before the ba'al tokea eats. The Mishna Berurah changes it dafka if the ba'al tokea speaks before he eats. I don't know why he has to change it. Lo chairo, it is true that if the mesubim speak before the ba'al tokea eats, it's a hefsek. A val acher kach, perush, a filu hesiach acher kach hashoymim v'yotzim b'vracha kodem she'yitmu, even if the listeners and those who are yotzei with his bracha are mafsik before they eat, gam kein ein k'peida b'di aved. There's no hakpada b'di aved. Halacha l'maaseh, halacha b'rurah she'ha mevarech the bracha the bracha was already chal. Meyuchad, l'chatchila b'vadai yotzei l'chol ha'deios she'lo mafsik kodem she'yitom. For sure, l'chatchila it's assur for any of the listeners to mafsik before they taste. Now, that's the Rama. The reason why this is coming as such a shocker to you is because almost everybody disagrees with the Rama. V'hinei zehu rak daas Rama, aval kimat kol ha'achronim, the Taz, the Magen Avraham, the Eliyahu Rabbah, the Pri Chadash, Shulchan Aruch HaRav, the Chayei Adam, Lo chairo, the Biur Halacha writes as the Sha'ar HaTziyun, Lo safek l'chol ha'deios od ha'shoyme'a mevarech atzmo, the listener is not any better than the one making the bracha himself, k'she sach kodem she'yitmu, if they would speak before he tastes, she'chozer u'mevarech, the listener is not better than the mevarech, if the mevarech would speak before he tastes, he would have to make another bracha, so the listener is not better than him, ba'al chinami, ha'shoymim im hefsiku b'dvarim kodem she'yitmu, so the listeners also, if they're mafsik with words before their te'ima, she'chozerim u'mevarchim. Now, so far the Mishna Berurah didn't say what to do with my sir. He didn't say to because all the argue on the so we're going to drop the no, we're not we're not dropping the no, I didn't say that. What do you mean but all the argue on the uh uh? That's very nice. But the is the uh uh. Now we'll see right the Mishnah Berurah doesn't say therefore um you can make now the uh uh is the lenient opinion here so he's he he has something going for him of but right now we don't have a conclusion. The that way the speaks before he tastes I'll show him a cloud even if the listeners did not speak it's master from the place game that the show him in a night Mhm. Now that which the says so come out all the say that the listener is not better than the and if the listener speaks before the listener eats then it is a half sick. By the the Mishnah Berurah didn't say and therefore that which the said that the listeners don't even have to eat in the first place everybody argues on that it seems like it's it's implicit implicit in the fact that argue on the and they say that if the listener speaks before the listener tastes it's a half sick so that means the listeners are going to have to eat from the it's not just then It's not just nice for the listeners to eat from the hamotzi, they would have to. They're not just doing it l'chib of hamitzvah. Let's see quickly the Be'er Halacha. Not like the Rama. And the Be'er Halacha challenges the that according to the way the Be'er Halacha understands the Or Zarua and the Rakach, there is no makor for the din of the Rama b'chlall. What emerges from this Rama because the the Mishna Berurah is not dropping the Rama like a hot pancake here. Don't think the Mishna Berurah says, "Oh, all the acharonim disagree." He didn't say, "Okay, therefore since all the acharonim disagree, therefore the halacha is chozer u'mivarech." It's I don't know why he didn't say that. L'chora, he would pasken that way, although he doesn't really say that. L'maisa, this Rama is used l'halacha. How? Ready for this? Fasten your seatbelts. It's leil Yom Tov. I think most people were conditioned um not to do what I'm about to tell you, and I don't think it's correct. It's leil Yom Tov. Your wife already made shehechiyanu on hadlakas neiros. Why she did it? Nobody knows. Even Rabbi Yaakov Emden can't understand it. But Rabbi Yaakov Emden was a very smart man. He challenged many gedolim, but he never started up with his wife. It's a very important limud. Rabbi Yaakov Emden was not a a timid person. But yet, when he was wondering why his wife was making uh shehechiyanu on hadlakas neiros, he had no understanding, but he let it slide. Yeah, fine. Now, you come home and you make kiddush, and you make a shehechiyanu. Should your wife answer amen? Should your wife answer amen? She doesn't need to. She already made shehechiyanu. Should she answer amen? Furthermore, is she yotzei kiddush? Because legabei her, your shehechiyanu is irrelevant. So, regarding her, you are mafsik between mekadesh Yisrael v'hazmanim and drinking. So, legabei vis-a-vis her, you're not yotzei kiddush, so maybe she's not yotzei kiddush. That far we don't go. Many poskim say she should not answer amen, right? You I'm sure you've heard that. Many poskim say the woman should not ans- It's wrong. It's not wrong, but it's not correct. She should answer amen. Why? Cuz of this Rama. Says the Magen Avraham from this Rama we learn that she should answer amen. Why? Cuz we learn from this Rama the shoymein are subordinate to the mashmia. And whatever is needed, and therefore says the Mishna, since the person making kiddush needs sh'ma Yisrael, the shoymain become butel to that person. Ad k'dei kach, they should answer amen. Because the person making the bracha needs to make the bracha, so the person listening is secondary, is mashubet to them. If the Rama goes so far as to say that you could even be mafsik because the because the iker is that the mashmia was yotzei, and he wasn't mafsik. So the Mishna learns from this Rama, even though k'mat all the achronim the Mishna brings down argue on the Rama. No, they don't argue fundamentally. The achronim are not fundamentally arguing on the Rama that there's a svara that the person being b'yotzei'a is the iker, and everyone else is tafel. It's just they say we cannot allow a hefsek because of that. However, we cannot allow a hefsek of dvarim b'teilim. But to answer amen, says the Mishna, from this Rama we see she's mechuyav to answer amen. The Mishna brings other ayas. The Mishna says if she wouldn't be allowed to answer amen, then Rabbi Akiva Eiger would have had to start up with his wife and stop her from making the sh'ma Yisrael in the first place, so she shouldn't be in a matzav where she has to sit there and not answer amen, cuz it's not permitted to put yourself in a situation where you're not able to answer amen. But the Mishna bases it b'iker on this unusual Rama that all the achronim disagree with, but the way we're explaining it is that they don't disagree fundamentally. They just say loy odif hashoymay'a me'amavarech l'hafsik b'dvarim k'dei lemteima. Yeah, we'll hold it over here. >> Recording stopped. >> Le Mesa