Rabbi Dovid Eliezrie #2 - Author of Undaunted, Previous Rebbe Life and History, Litvish Gedolim- RCD

So I'm here with uh Rabbi Dova Deazri who is the of Orange County center but more importantly someone who has uh spent a lot of time with people throughout the world on Jewish issues and most recently has written this book on daunted a month or so ago it came out and we're going to focus now on the second segment of the inter of the interview on this on this book. And let me tell you, David, that I've received several calls about the book and uh engaged with them in conversation. I'm going to share some of what they said and and I want to hear your >> Well, now I'm really, you know what, gets me nervous here. Everybody I talked about the book to now was not a real historian, but now I'm up against some I'm up against my match, you know. No, I'm I'm not going to challenge you on history, but I'm going to ask you some pointed questions. So, first before I do that, I want you to give me just a brief a brief background of how this book came about. >> Well, how the book came about is like this. I did a book called The Secret of Kabad that did very well and even was a a runner up in the National Jewish Book Award. I wanted to do another book, but and but and I really was very intrigued by the previous Reb. So I was at the National Jewish Retreat a few years ago and my dear friend Rabbi Mendel commonson from London says to me, you know, Dubbin, somebody has to write a book on the previous Reb. So I said, "That's a great idea and I want to do it and I've already planned out the book." In other words, I mapped out the chapters. I made a book proposal, but it's going to cost a certain amount of money to do the research because this is not a book that you can just write yourself. So I specified the amount of money and there was a guy standing next who I happen to know and he says that's not a problem. and they gave me the money to do the research and I felt it was divine providence. So I spent four years two three hours a day I'd come in the off office like 6:00 in the morning and 6:30 work for 3 four hours on the book and then go run my regular kabat house and it took an extraist and historians and tremendous amount of research and I think um I the book is doing very very well. After a week, it went into a second printing and it sold out on Amazon within it. It it caused us a whole problem because it had so many sales on Amazon it got backlogged for two three weeks. Barashem is now moving in the right direction on Amazon and the book is doing well. >> Okay. So, uh that's wonderful. So one of the one of the criticisms of academics that I I believe you're aware of is that the previous which this book is based on so much of his writings so much of his writings in addition to of course your own research and and you've done a wonderful job. I mean this is very extensive. It really is. It's it's it's going to be a classic. No question about it. >> Well I must tell you I cite you a few times. >> I know that. I know that. But but but but >> now I know the book is good. understand we're in great >> da this is the question the question that the academics will ask and probably I I assume you got the question already is the freed sometimes seems to contradict himself with dates and and and there's been this let me finish the question please there's been this um coal you know this outrageous uh uh uh sound that that he He writes heography. Hegraphy and hedgraphy is a big no no in the academic world. I I want you to address this because this is very >> I think it's very first thing the Reb himself addresses it and the fact is like this. Sometimes the predic will mention a date 50 60 years earlier and he will say one time what this date and one day that date off by six months or a year or something like that. But the basic gist of the story always remains the same. And I think we have to ask ourselves a much very bigger question. When you look at those historians that have documented the history of Jews in Russia and even here in America, most of those historians are coming from a very liberal bent and their value system is profoundly different. And by the way, I actually challenge the these historians in the note to reader and also in a long footnote in the book because I think they they they lack the ability to really their research is really not comprehensive because they're only using the more secular kinds of sources and they don't and they have not most of the work on Russian jewelry was done 30 40 years ago before a tremendous amount of material was published within the kabad community which is heavily documented and heavily sourced. some of the great work of Rabban who's the librarian of the series of books of the history of kabad which gives tremendous amount of detail also there was another thing because a lot of these academics did the works in the 80s and 90s it was done when kabad wasn't talking about what we were doing in Russia like it was this is a subject that was it was it was secrets you're not going to talk about a Jewish underground when you're operating a Jewish underground because you're going to put it at risk >> right >> and people see has a tendency to see the world in their within their own parameters and their own silo and these are people that are more secular and and and they themselves don't see the value of religious leadership. So I think that what to me the book undaunted the fact that the previous reba may have remembered one way 50 years later a date and and another day remembered a date a few days a few months off or something like that I think that's irrelevant to the basic gist of the story and we know the gist of the story and the greatest proof of the pudding is let's if you look today in in world jewelry that in Russia the dominant force today is kabad in America the most progressive and and and and and and and most important, you know, vibrant and creative force in Jewish life today is Kabad. And all of this it what I'm trying to get a point here, it all be the previous rabbi is is so to speak the one who laid he's the architect. He builds the foundation and if you look at a building, you build a foundation and then you build a frame. Well, he built the foundation and the Reb built the frame. So people who want to undermine the value of these accomplishments and there are people like that and I think that they have their own biases and one of the things that I did very carefully is that I decided I'm not writing a heography. I'm going to deal with some difficult issues which I dealt with hopefully with dignity and respect but at the same time everything is footnoted. There's 1645 footnotes. I would I would encourage these academics to go through the original sources and let them challenge me. I would love the conversation, but they themselves probably could not decipher a the the the Hebrew and the Yiddish sources and the Russian sources that we use to substantiate the argument of this book that the previous Reb is one of the most consequential leaders of 20th century jewelry. >> Okay. So what you know you growing up in in the Kabad yeshiva system and being a and being immersed in in Kabad culture most of your life what was the novelty that you found in your research the number one thing that stands out >> I think a few things well one number one thing I think what's one of the most interesting things about the previous reb's life is his ability to adapt to totally new challenges. The Reb speaks about three periods of his leadership but I think that's a very it doesn't really get to the depth of the issue because the challenges that he faces even before he's rebar Russia the challenge he faced underneath communism which is faced standing up to one of the most anti-religious regimes in the history in in within Jewish history and creating a successful underground not an underground that blows up building but an underground that educates children and keeps Jewish life alive until the fall of the Soviet union was one set of challenge in Poland. He's he's having a struggle for relevance. There's many other great rebbitical figures. He doesn't play along with the program. He doesn't join a goodish Israel, which is not everybody joins a good Israel. The Belerb doesn't, but it's still the primary way that that traditional orthodox jewelry expresses itself. And he is so derma in Hebrew. has an independent approach and he's struggling for relevance and and he has no real in Western Europe and he has a different kind of message. He thinks different, he acts different and he's trying to establish himself and in 19 you know when he gets out of Russia 1927 he's got one tiny little yeshiv in Warsaw and by the time the war breaks out 1939 he's got 11 yeshivas with almost 1500 students which is creating a new generation of a new generation of Jewish leaders. So that's one set of battles and then the last period of his life he comes to America. Now many great rebbitical scholars and many great Jewish figures you knowidic rebas and rashas they came to America before the war right after the war but they were still in Europe. The rebba adapts himself to the American mentality and the American culture in a remarkable kind of way. He sets the tote. He's he number one, he's taking he's he's saying saying that Orthodox Jewy in America is on the defensive and he wants to go on the offense. He creates all kinds of strategies to engage modern Judaism. He he makes yeshivas, but he doesn't just make yeshivas. He makes clubs for kids. He makes a program called release time. He creates academic curriculum. He's really engaged on multi-level strategies to bring about a sense of Jewish renaissance. And in the post-war era, he does something also very interesting that we've said we neglected I think historically which is that you have a group of he had a manpower problem. He didn't have who to work with. So he had a yeshiva in New York with 30 40 students. After the war he gets number one a thousandim as I mentioned earlier escape Russia and number two a group of 40 50 yeshiva students about 40 students come from Shanghai. Now these these he gives this gives him human capital. And what does he do? He doesn't tell them okay guys either all go to Israel the new state of Israel or come to me in Brooklyn. He says no I want you to go to Australia. I want you to go to France. Not that everybody listens and not that everybody succeeds but he's laying the foundation for a transformation of world jewelry that we see happens in the years to come. And so indicative of his personality. What's his last act? To begin the preparation and to order his son-in-law to create a Jewish educational system in Morocco. Now let's is a long way from the kidic village of Lababich to the melas of Morocco. So he has this tremendous. So in each environment the challenges are totally different. He adapts and he succeeds despite medical challenges, sometimes a lack of manpower and definitely financial challenges. Did he take into consideration working strongly with the orthodox world namely Rabim Ozeranski? >> Yeah, he works very closely in Europe but um he he actually has a very strong cooperation with very interesting letter he writes. You know he had a dilemma in 1929 because the major source of funding for Russian jewelry was for the joint distribution committee. The joint is an organization set up by American Jury, which still functions today and has a budget about $400 million a year to help Jews overseas. And he was very troubled by the joint that had decided to become partners with the communist government and build agricultural colonies. And they spent a quarter of a billion of today's dollars in those years between the late 1920s till 1937 in creating agricultural colonies where Jews were forced to move their homes and live in these agricultural colonies that ultimately failed. In my mind, it's one of the greatest failures of Jewish philanthropy ever in the history. So, he's in Isra. He's in Europe and he's trying to get the joint to help him out, but they don't. And he understands that decision makers are in America. And who does he consult with? He consults with and and they advise him, you got to go to America. He writes a letter. I've decided to go now that I've consulted with these two. He has with them a strong working relationship, but he's also independent in his strategies. And we see that in not so much with but we see this he has a marked difference in strategy between him and the literature yeshiva world and it's a strate it's a strategy which I think exists still today about how about what are the goals and what is the strategies for Jewish survival and Jewish identity in America and all over the world and I and the Reb takes a tremendously different approach in Russia and in America than this community. >> In what way? In what way? >> In what way? Okay. What? Let's let's look what happens in 1920. Communism comes in and wants to restrict religious activity in Russia. So the great Russia Shivas is also America. They say we have to save the core and we're going to we're going to leave go to Lithuania. We're going to go to Poland and we're going to preserve that core of Jewish learning and scholarship. The Reb says I'm responsible for every Jew. I'm staying and I'm going to build a system to keep Judaism alive in Russia. They are I I think historically they looked at the example of Zakai after destruction of the temple of Yavn we have to preserve the core of Jewish scholarship and learning and that's what they do. Fast forward to 1940 we have the same battle what the Reb says he tells his yeshiva students I mean I have a beautiful quote in the book from Abra who was one of the those yeshiva students. He said the rebba wanted to push us out of yeshiva and we should go make Jewish day schools comes the great Lithuanian rashivas aren't cutler in particular and they want to build a center of scholarship guess what they succeeded today you can't argue that lakewood is not one of the greatest centers of Jewish learning in the world but I want to tell you something very honestly that nobody in Orange County California sees any relevance of Lakewood in their lives in other words they created fortress Judaism and this is a bigger deeper philosophical argument that what's the Jewish continuity. Are we going to engage the world around us or are we going to build an insular kind of fortress or ghetto Judaism which will deal with the outside world but we want to live on our terms only. And so this expresses itself number one on strategies for Jewish survival and you cannot say that the Lithuanian yes world did not succeed. It's a magnificent success. Does it change the lives of the Jews in Orange County, California or Montana or other cities? Not really. And they do establish coyles and you got to give them but if you go to these cities these coyals again fortress focus on a small nucleus of people who are very engaged in religious life. They have very little effect on the broader Jewish community and you know you come to my center half the people coming to classes are members of the local reformed temple. So so this disagreement is on two levels. Number one philosophy teaches us that we can bring holiness to every place and they are fearing the outside world. So they want to become insular. The Reb wants to engage. Number two, what is our responsibility? Is it only for ourselves or is it for every single Jew? And this is a real difference in worldview and in mindset. And we see this this we see this also expressed with the establishment of the state of Israel. So, so what you're saying is that this difference began with and the freed I want to say I think had a very strong kinship with the freed there's no question they were very close I think you I think that I don't he didn't move any yeshivas out of out of out of out of what's his name out of Russia any but he pro I and I can't speculate if he advised those Russas to leave maybe he did But but there is here a great I I don't think the focus is on there is here the real statement about what's the key to Jewish continuity. They are saying it's Jewish learning and scholarship. Guess what? They did a magnificent job. Look at the SMATS 50 70 80,000. The next semas is being planned right now. They're going to be in two or three stadiums. It's an unreal success. On the other side, the Reb says I can't abandon every single Jew. But this this disagreement is on two levels. Number one, it's all it's on it's multi level. It's also about how we see ourselves as Jews are how because the centerpiece of kabad educational system is this idea of internalization of values what we call pmis and if you are pimi if you've internalized the values then you're going to keep those values wherever you are. An interesting thing the lowest rate of OTD people leaving Orthodox Judaism today is the children of Schlim who are brought up many times far from religious communities. I'm telling you this is statistically we've done a study on California the lowest rate of OTD in the f community is the in California is the children of which is about 1%. And the in general probably in the kabad community it's six 7% in the the orth whatever the numbers are the orthodox rules modern orthodox a little higher what it's so interesting okay they're exposed to the world they understand that I can give you a whole analysis of it but at the very end there is the question of how do we deal with what's the strategy for Jewish survival and what's the strategy for living in a modern western country where freedom and opportunity and the same thing expressed itself in Israel with the establishment of the state because what does the khaz do it's a very interesting thing the Kazan who's the most important leader of Lithuanian jury has a famous meeting with Bengorian those who know that piece of history it's a very I think seinal event in in modern Jewish history Bengorian comes to the Kasnesh I think it's 52 or 53 and Benorian system what are we going to do to protect the country says we're learning Torah what about that the taxi drivers and the firelet and the firemen what we're learning Torah what's really lying at the core of it the attrition from the orthodox world in the first half of the 20th century was massive. So the the the Kazish and other litig felt the only way that they would have Jewish continuity is to build a wall between themselves and the modern society and create this culture of scholarship. And they succeeded. The Reb comes along. What does the Reb do, the previous Reb? He wants to establish a town in Israel. And he works with Zman Shazar, who comes from a Kabad background, was a Zionist leader and eventually becomes a president of Israel. And they want they suggest to the Reb, let's make this Kabad town next to What's A sleepy town five miles from Fat which is known for one thing. The burial site of the great Tammudic sage. We'll send you there where the cabalist want to hang out. The Reb says no way. I want to be next to Tel Aviv. He doesn't want to preserve the core. He wants to influence the society. H >> at the same time that's one point >> and number two when the asked him should they go to the army he tells him yes not that you shouldn't you should go learn yeshiva for a few years but you have a responsibility to the broader society and we've lost probably a million or a dozen I don't know how many kabad soldiers since the beginning of this war since October 7th at the very end of the day with the big question about how do we deal with modern Israel is really the same issue they want the idea of karedi society is to separate yourself from that society. Kabad wants to engage that society and this so we see this difference expressing itself not only in strategies for Jewish survival but also in strategies how we live our lives and come to terms with modernity. I want to go back to something uh that David Fishman, Professor David Fishman, I think today he's at uh University um that he >> Larry Shipman, >> no not Larry. David Fishman. >> David Fishman. >> Yeah. So David uh wrote he wrote a book on Russian jewelry I think in the 20s and 30s and he writes that the previousb cided when he when in allocating funds more to the his own than to the Lithuanian uh students from the various yeshivas. Did you come across anything like this in your research? Not really. And I I but I would I I I I I didn't come across that. I haven't seen his the work of Fishman. And um and at that time I think the Reb's approach was to support everything. And we see this very interesting in one story here in America. In the early 1940s, yeshiva to Adas, which was the mother yes of America faced a tremendous dilemma. It was behind in salaries, behind in mortgage, and it was on the verge of foreclosure. And the great fial mendelovich u Mr. Mendel Rabbi Mendelovich who established yesa was distraught and he was about to he basically was giving up he he they were going to they were coming and when the reb heard about it he contacted Mendelovich and he said what's going on and the upshot of the whole story is that the Reb bailed out Torbadas and he said in a in a statement that was given to Tobas I never let a yeshiva close in Russia and I'm not going to let one down. So, I don't know about the turf battles of what happens, you know, 70, 80 years ago in Russia. I can't speak to that because I don't have any firsthand knowledge. Um, I I can't speak to that, but we do know, but we do know that that the Reb intervened many times to help other institutions, and I document some of them in the book, and I don't think that that was his worldview. So I think maybe there was a little I think there was probably >> people some people that were you know the Reb had established a a committee of rabbis in Russia in the beginning of the 1920s as a public face for Judaism and he was the chairman and could be that some people disagree didn't want him to be the chairman >> and they opposed him. I um I uh I responded to David Fishman in one of my works and uh showed him that unfortunately he didn't understand the Hebrew properly of the letter of the original letter. The letters printed the previous and uh he simply interpreted uh incorrectly but I just was wondering if you spoke if you came across that. Okay. Um the next point is like this. First of all, what you said before about versus KB and that whole discussion. This was one of the criticisms that I received last week from a Lakewood individual, an 80-year-old man who's a a very serious person and I respect him. Was one of my rebies he's one of my Rebi sons. Um so he's Quasa Kabad, not Kabad, you know. Um and he wanted to know why why did you have to um you know write that and you know and Meltzer did that you know and and the others they they escaped they left you know whereas the >> truth is truth >> right that that's the msas that's the truth right >> this this was their guess what I'm arguing that they had an historical precedent they felt they have to save their yeshivas Right? >> Guess what? If they hadn't saved their yeshivas, the world of yeshivas wouldn't be here today. Right. >> But there was a disagreement between them and the previous reba about what is the strategies for Jewish survival. >> Right. Right. Right. So So like no need to repeat it. You explained it well. I'm saying I'm I'm very happy that you that you spent some time on that. Then the other issue that uh that came up and I I think this is a valid criticism if I may. Uh why didn't you uh uh print some of those kuras where you see all three signed together? I think that would have been very valuable. >> I didn't print first thing I think that I did mention in the book in the narrative they sign things jointly. I didn't print anything except pictures of the previous book. >> But but may maybe for future printing you would consider >> I'm not going to do that. There is some consideration to create a website as a support for the book. But I only I chose this is a very technical question. I only chose to print pictures. I could have printed a lot of different other documents or whatever. It just would have been too much. But the very fact that it's mentioned multiple times in the narrative of the book that they signed things jointly, I think it makes up that point very clearly. >> Okay. Okay. Now, um, going to the to other parts of the book and the discussion and yes, the footnotes are are wonderful and extensive. Um, how do you deal? I don't know if you deal with it here, but how do you deal with the previous Reb's call for five years for immediate rede repentance brings immediate redemption and it didn't happen. Do you at all tackle this idea in your >> No, I actually spoke about it in in chapter 10. and I discussed this and I think there's a seminal letter from the rebba from the previous rebba to a guy called klatskin who's a Jewish activist an intellectual I don't know if it was fully from but he was a he it's it's I think it's a very important letter it's written in 1943 and I talk about this letter extensively in the book because I feel it really lays out the Reb's worldview is faced with a dilemma and this is what he writes Klatskin he says to him. We're having this terrible crisis and nothing is working. In the past, diplomacy, we would work quietly and we try to get people to help Jews. Their ears are closed. The Jewish activists who have a little bit of influence are concerned with interfaith relationships. Let's also understand at that period of time in the 1940s, Orthodoxy had no agency in in in in Washington DC. Today a good Israel does conventions and the OU and Kabad has an office even though we don't do organiz we don't do political stuff but we still have a degree of influence and today we have our own we have agency so to speak the orthodox Jewish world has agency to stand up for issues that it feels important but at that time everything was dominated by primary the reformed rabbi Steven as the liberal Jewish establishment and um in fact we see especially with this white house right now Orthodox Jews have probably more influence than liberals Jews, >> but that was not the case at the time. So, so the Reb points out the fact that politically we get we're getting nowhere. The the media, he says, is not interested in writing about the stories. What is the spiritual response to Jews in a time of crisis? It's a turn to the aster and hope for redemption. And I feel this is really a natural extension of what Judaism has already taught all through the ages. He said he he tried every We've tried everything else. Diplomacy is not working. Media is not working. Um our our political connections are not working. We're only left with one thing. We got to pray to God. And so therefore, he only publishes this magazine creating the war years. The minute the war ends, it's done with. It doesn't happen anymore. Interestingly enough, and this is intriguing, he writes this letter to Klatskin. But when the great march in Washington happens which is orchestrated to its credit by Vat Solah who who uh and together with um what's his name the the um organizer >> the nephew of Hill Cook the nephew of Rook >> Rabel Rabzar Silver and Peter Bergson Peter Bergson is the organ he's the the money and the vision whatever and rebel silver so in the march of Washington Yum Kipper I think it's 1944 the previous rabbi sends a very distinguished delegation of his to join the march. He supports the march. He doesn't he sends two of his secretaries Dr. Nissan Mandel Mandel and Rabbi Quint. He sends Zman Gari Rashiva and he sends um the son of Vitten who is he's basically the Reb's assistant in the house. He's the what we call the so he sends prominent leaders and he sends his close the guy who works with him every single day and he's making a statement I'm supporting the march in Washington and the march in Washington had success because it brought about the establishment of the war refugee board till this point he's very hesitant to do anything on this kind of level plus let's be very honest he does not have diplomatic connections one time Kabad the reb son-in-law Roshar Garari gets a meeting with with Mrs. Roosevelt, but they don't have connections today. And the connections that were helping helped save him in World War II, which was primarily because of the actions of a man called Benjamin Cohen, who was a top aid to Roosevelt in the White House, and he was even on the p front page of Time magazine in the early 30s as the architect of the New Deal. He's not interested in kamat anymore. He helped get the reba free and that was it. Kalas, nothing more. So, he has no so this but the march he supports. Why? I think because he respected Rebelis silver and he thought there would some be some kind of actual thing that would come out of it that would be effective and the fact is the march succeeds. So when he sees no other hope he does what every other Jew does. It's a spiritual response. >> Right. So so do you think that um why does he stop in 1945? >> I think because the the crisis ended, the war was finished. There's no more Holocaust. There was no reason to continue. I I'm doing this as a response to the war. The war has now ended. That's it. >> So let me let me ask you this. Rabbi Salvich, you probably know Rabi Salvich was originally an Auda member and then he switched to Misra. He became the father figure of Misra in America. >> Right. I know that >> right salvation comes from Brisker who together with the rashab's father they you know they didn't they had their issues with with Zionism. Now Salvich would always say that he he acknowledged it and he said the Holocaust made me change my view. My question to you is do you see any change in the previous rebber uh those last five years because of the holiday? >> Yes 100%. I see the with the establishment of the state he's coming to grips with the reality. See the religious world I'm not talking about satir. The satner is a smaller group. The orthodox world split into three camps about how to respond to the state of Israel. Much of the Karedi world still looked at Zionism with great concern and worry and wanted very little to do with it. Did not want to be part of the modern Israeli society. Did not want their boys to go to the army. And that thing continues till today. The religious Zionist world, the M spe spe spe spe spe spe spe spe spe spe spe spe spe spe spe spe spe spe spe spearheaded by misrai who by the way have paid one of the greatest sac since the beginning of this war. I think that that segment of the population in Israel, what we call the datumi, the religious Zionist population, has probably sacrificed more of their young men in defense of the country than any other segment of the population. Yes, >> they saw the state is what we call the first flowering of a redemption and they felt the state was that they will they will moderate the secular influence of Zionism and they thought this was a miraculous moment. I think the previous rabbi takes a middle ground. He does not see Zionism as the end all for the Jewish people. But he comes to grips with the reality of the establishment of the state as a haven for the Jewish people. He is still struggling with the idea and kabad struggles today with this idea that secular nationalism should replace uh Jewish identity of it was based rooted in Torah. But at the same time he does he rejects the approach of the literature and the kazines that want to separate themselves from Israeli society. He wants to engage in Israeli society. He supports the vote in the UN in 1947. The story is documented in the book. And and while he doesn't see Zionism is the end all, he comes to grips with that reality. So I can be a citizen of Israel, I can support the country, but I don't have to say Mashiah came yet. So this kind of kabad takes a very nuanced approach to the state in the post 1948 era. We support we want to be part of the society. We we support we're going to go to the military. We're going to again after you study in yeshiva it's a very important caveat and not for the girls and bey and we're going to we're going to make a contribution to this country. And we see this so interestingly in the Reb's interactions where he met with all these prime ministers and presidents of Israel. You know, usually when some Russia great prominent rabbi meets with some prominent Israeli figure, it's about getting certain amount of money for his yeshiva. And the Reb was usually about what we can do to benefit Israeli society. How can we make the cong the country stronger? Or is the famous line that Yitz Rabin had a private meeting with the Reb 1972 and he walked out of the meeting, he whispered into the ear of his aid, Yehudav, who told me the story that the Reb knows more about the security of the state of Israel than 120 members of the Knesset. There's this we are part of the common destiny. Now we don't agree with everything philosophically that modern Zionism has to offer this idea that this is the end all that this is the redemption that etc etc but at the same time we're not separating ourselves. And I would argue interestingly enough that what did the Kazan tell Benorian? He says there's a classic story in the Talmet about two camels that come to two sides of the bridge. One is fully laden and the other has no merchandise. And he says the one that's that that that that's fully laden has the right of way and the other one has to give away. So he says you have to give way to us because we have thousands of years of tradition and you have nothing. And I would argue and again this is my novel argument and you can refute it if you want that what Kabad is saying to modern Israeli society is that we have a camel which is full of tradition. We're not telling you to stand away from us. We're walking side by side with you. We don't agree with everything you're doing, but we're not going to separate ourselves from you, and we are going to be part of the society that we live in. >> Okay. So, would you say that the book Undaunted, which is uh the book that that Rabzi just wrote, which is wonderful and very special, I encourage everyone to buy it and read it. >> Available in Amazon and your local Jewish bookstore. >> Thank you. Is it is it would you say that a classical uh litak from Lakewood um would would uh would appreciate it. >> I think he needs to read it just like I've read books about Litfish Gadim who I may have a different worldview from because I want to understand other parts of the religious world and just like I get a I have a subscription that I pay for Mishbah magazine even though sometimes I'm not so enthralled with all the articles they write. I think undaunted number one it treats the baluta the people that the previous rabbi disagreed with it treats them with great respect. Nobody here is denigrated. There is honest differences and there's nothing wrong without having a conversation about those differences as long as it's done with dignity. Secondly, I think that if you want to understand the dest modern Jewish destiny, you want to understand what's going on in the Jewish world today, you have to un you have to know what the real history of of the of the previous Reba is because he made such a profound contribution. And I see we have a tendency what I try to do which is different than a lot of history books that are published with all due respect by Arts Skull and others is they have a tendency to write out of history the things that they don't agree with fully. I wrote them in. I disag I I showed where the points of disagreement were between the previous Reba and first in the Lithua world. But I didn't no way, shape or form did I act like the Lithua world didn't exist. When you read some of these history books written by that are published and and they talk about the beginning of day school education in America and they tell you Torahur started, that's a lie. >> It was started by the previous Reb. And when Torah started the came to the previous Reb and he said, "Fantastic. they're doing what I want them to do. But to write the story the way it is is just disingenuous. And the second thing is I didn't write a heography. I wrote the truth. And there's difficult issues here in this book because the rebell had a difficult and challenging life and you can't ignore it. And so I I think the intellectual honesty and there's one other point which I think is very interesting. Most books we have today published within the Orthodox Jewish world. The view we have of those individuals and many of them are great rabbitical figures that did remarkable things. People of spiritual giants but we have no insight into their internal worlds. The previous Reb was Mala. He shared his feelings and emotions through letters through conversations etc with many many people. So, not only do we know what he did, but we I I was very careful in this book not to tell people what the Reb did, except for two or three places where I said I made suggested we might possibly think that he did because of A, B, and C. I let the Reb speak for himself. And the fact that we have this, his voice resonating throughout this book makes it different than all of the contemporary literature of Jewish of of Gdel Israel, of the great Jewish rabbitical figures of the last century or two. So what what I would like to see David is that uh in addition to your tour in Kabad houses and institutions I re and I really would like to see you get out to the uh literature world. >> I'm willing to come wherever they invite me. I can't walk in the door and pound my >> No, no, no. But but I'm saying you know you should you should make some kind of effort you and your publisher. >> I am 100% open to to go any place. I am now on a book tour. I'm going to be doing it till July. I'll be finishing it in Australia in honor of Thomas Tamas which celebrates the anniversary of the release of the previous reba from prison but and I'll be in Australia in South Africa for Gimmel Thomas for the pre the rebite but I am open to come and to discuss with people who may disagree because I think that makes life a lot more interesting. Absolutely. and and if there is people who are in the Lithuanian world and there's some delicate issues here in this book which could cause a little bit of controversy but I think what I attempted to do was to treat those people who had a different value a different a different strategy and a different worldview than the previous reb to respect their worldview and with a sense of respect also disagree >> right >> and to show those contrasts >> and and um again from the for the the little feedback that I got you know and I'll be getting more but um there's respect for the work even if there's a you know a criticism here or there but overall um this book has has really really opened up to them uh a very important door and um I wish you a lot of much success and uh any