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Prenuptial Agreement; History, Document and Implementation
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A discussion with Rabbi Mordechai Willig, Av Beth Din, Beth Din of America & Rabbi Shlomo Weissmann Director, Beth Din of America. For more information visit: https://theprenup.org/
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Auto-generated transcript. Not time-synced to the video.
foreign
[Music]
to have joining me Rabbi Weissman
of resident of America I believe he's
the manal executive director of the
dasden and Rabbi Mordechai willig or
shashimi Chiva University
and RAV in Young Israel of Riverdale and
most importantly for this conversation
the avbezden of the best of America
we are finishing misaka's getting
towards the end and I thought it would
be interesting for the London on this
platform and all over to understand a
little bit what the prenuptial agreement
is what was his history what is the
actual document what some of the support
or the last considerations of this
document and hopefully at the end we'll
have some time to speak about the New
York get law I talk to myself I'm an
amorits in both of these matters so
everybody will like is a person who's
been involved in both of these in yanum
and we'd love to hear
some of the halachic ramifications of
both of these both of these
Weisman could talk from a practical
perspective what they have done and how
they're implemented today so before I
begin I just want to be Weisman for 30
seconds to introduce himself and The
Business of America
sure thank you Rabbi schwed first of all
for having me for having us and for
talking about this topic uh
well I'll talk generally about the
president of America the president of
America is uh best and affiliated with
the rabbinical Council of America with
the RCA we also have a closed
association with the OU
um and uh I've been working at the
veteran for about 15 years when I tell
people what the president of America
does the answer is we do the things that
a typical besden does and usually I
divide that into three spheres we handle
matrimonial issues ranging from the
Seder I get the actual technical
implementation of a get people schedule
an appointment they'll come and they'll
do a get at the bazden sometimes our
involvement with getting issues extends
beyond that when there's recalcitrance
when things get complicated when one
spouse or another doesn't want to do the
get or doesn't want to do the get now
things now is not the appropriate timing
for the get and so we'll get involved uh
in some of the complications in that in
terms of osmanas and cerem and uh see
too that there's a process to sort
through controversial issues like that
and then our matrimonial practice
extends into resolution of end of
marriage issues when people get divorced
uh they need to deal with financial
issues custody issues all sorts of uh
disputes that might arise between the
parties and so we'll be involved in
mediating disputes sometimes sometimes
arbitrating disputes in a dentura
um that's kind of one sphere of what one
one-third of what we do the second third
is DNA Torah generally where we're
helping people resolve commercial cases
business disputes that arise also
through either mediation or through the
din Tower process where typically you'll
have a panel of three dionum and the
parties will sign a binding arbitration
agreement and we'll have hearings and
issue of Sac and work through that help
people try to resolve their disputes and
the third area which we're involved is
halathic personal status issues where
people have questions about uh where
where someone or rev has a question or
the community has a question about
whether the person is Jewish whether
they're eligible to marry manzaris
issues
um unfortunately sometimes come up we
have to deal with those
um and um all in all we do that with our
with relatively small staff uh very busy
office handling hundreds of cases of
year and all three of those Realms
that's uh that's in a nutshell what the
president of America is
okay thank you the last thing that you
mentioned about so we already discussed
perhaps we'll have to bring yourself and
everybody will look back when we
learned that I feel me to have a
conversation about so people like if you
could give I guess we'll call it a brief
sheer on the history of what was going
on in the world before the prenuptial
agreement what it is and what's
happening now thank you very much
everybody sweat for your kind
introduction
and inviting me to speak with
otherwiseman it's very difficult and
important topic
I have no choice but to give you a
personal history because otherwise it'll
be incomplete to understand the whys of
my involvement
I'm celebrating it's hard to believe
50th year in their bonus in Young Israel
Riverdale
when I entered
almost 50 years ago
the Laguna issue already surfaced
and rabbis found themselves fairly
impotent to resolve these types of
situations of recalcitrance
would I change
number one
the seemingly exponential increase in
the number of divorces
the more divorce that you have the more
complicated situations you're going to
have and sadly in the Years leading up
to my beginning in the Revenant the
divorce rate increased and it's since
then it's increased again
that's number one number two this is not
a new phenomenon where I bought him
today lacked the authority of the
previous generations to go back to
pre-war Europe
or let's say
pre-emancipation Europe
at a time when they were organized
kehilos
and there was a Arab in it with a chief
rabbi
and there was no escaping
you couldn't get away the only way to
get away was to convert to Christianity
short of that you had to be part of a
Healer by government Fiat and therefore
there was a significant amount of sway
that the local rather than has to try to
resolve these issues this of course
completely fell apart here in the United
States and even before that so therefore
the rabbi has a very few uh means at his
disposal to try to get someone who
doesn't want to give a get to give one
very difficult to achieve anything and
that's why these twin developments cause
this serious problem when I began my
rabbit so I designed it as a Young Man
very young man that's not happening on
my watch I'm going to try to do
something about it you know something
okay but I had a honeymoon the first 15
or so years of my rap bonus
and another problem there were a couple
of divorces but the people resolved on
themselves that didn't ask me the woman
ever asked me for her help
but of course like I think all good
hunting was it ran out and in the very
late 80s I was involved in a situation
which was precisely such a situation
where after trying to help the ship with
Sheldon bias Etc uh the woman asked for
again and she was right to ask for it
and the man said if you don't do this or
that you'll be a naguna
I felt like a a bull with a red flag in
front of him this is exactly what I said
I won't let happen on my watch and now
it's happening on my watch what do I do
about it
so I felt we have to tell the fellow you
know this is not right what you're doing
you should please give the get and he
was a good guy she was a wonderful woman
both but just they couldn't get past it
so the the wonderful balabas did what
organ do he went to a different rabbi
went to a different rabbi and because he
was such an honest person really he told
it I knew both sides he told his story
from his perspective to the name of the
rabbit was Robbie Jonathan rosenblatt of
the river Jewish Center told him his
thought of the story and the rabbi said
yes we have to give again
the two strikes takes three so he went
through Avi Weiss from the third show
then this is back in the 1989
and said his story and he said again you
have to give again
all right now he sort of struck out but
he's still not giving it again so after
a while this is right after circus of
that year 1989 we did something which is
very rare in our circles today the three
of us were the maletta called him up and
said please do not return to our shows
until you give your wife again
the months went by from after circus
until pesach
and he was not in any of our shoes he
went to some little shoe for retirement
he's a private show
and then
as it happened our Yeshiva was learning
getting that year
and before pesach I told my Tommy them
listen we're learning 80 busier
getting that everyone's now finishing
that if you want me let's do something
for Claudia so let's just focus from now
I have to pay stuff on this thorny issue
and try to do something for the cloud
okay so we started learning right after
PESA and the courage was very good three
days they have to pay that week after
Payson we started learning the get was
given
what happened what changed
well as a judge the judge was a
non-observant female Jewish judge who
gave the following decision I'm going to
split your assets 50 50. but if you give
the get within 10 days I give you 55
percent
instead of punishing him she rewarded
him which is a completely close to get
the get was given and was told his ear
exactly two weeks after Payson began
that job as he came to my show
I told the guy bye
you have to give him shlishy
he says six months he's Persona nagrada
and I get solution I said exactly for
six months he wouldn't give a get and I
gave the guy he deserved salishi so he
got schlichi after the next Aaliyah I
went over to shake a sandwich and he
wasn't half so happy as initials but yep
we're friends he remarried she remarried
that's the way there's a partial of
Garrison in the Torah for a reason okay
meanwhile we got started
a few days into this project we kept
going
so the first thing I discovered and
looked at the Modern literature was an
article which had been written exactly
two years before
in a very prestigious Journal called
Maria in Aries Israel
I didn't know
very famous now but then he was sitting
in a coil somewhere in May I show him
and he had written a beautiful article
where he quoted
Goldberg the name which is Hardy fellow
then also about a certain uh approach
which apparently had never been
discussed before many other suggestions
have been made I don't have the time to
go into them right now but none of them
enjoyed uh a broad rabbinic uh approval
fine so someone put me in touch with me
I called them up and he was very very
polite to me he's a God will be Israel I
was really uh very uh
very very distant from his level of
learning but it's very nice to me and we
started corresponding back and forth
starting from we'll say
uh
if motive here
all the way for about eight months were
corresponding and I realized to move
this forward I have to meet this man the
person and see what happens
so it was now up to January of 1991 I
flew territor Israel to meet this God
will be Israel
and we meet we said he's always very
very respectful he had his wonderful
Robinson they both passed away not that
long ago she's a daughter from she was
so nice to me uh amazing
but then he says after all this we have
eight months of Correspondence already
you can't just do the space of one Rabbi
you gotta speak to somebody else the
cloud one I said who should I go to
please go to a prime symbolist the Tel
Aviv
these were Pals from yet both in William
and the youth and the symbolist was such
a great diet the revolution considered
him the number one diet in all of Israel
how do I know
but the whole panovic fight broke out
and it did a shellish he asked of a
symbolist to take that responsibility
for which he got busy on us till the
very end of his life
which is you know a sign of a good diet
anyway so uh I went to meet him in Tel
Aviv
and uh I came to his house he looks over
it was written says you know
I don't like it so much and he turned it
around a different way
the opposite way sort of the details
we'll discuss momentarily
I was so depressed eight months I put on
this Rabbi a says this or maybe says
that nothing's going to come with the
whole thing
thinks for a minute says we'll do it his
way
we'll do it this way that's
you know we realize
what are the proof taxes of districts
partial parachas akev I saw it in my own
eyes in a heartbeat he said okay we'll
do it his way if they had printed the
other way two years ago already it's now
almost three years ago we'll do it his
way good
so I'm back and forth and back and forth
and back and forth to get proper uh
conclusion
fine I go back home at the time I was
helped by a group called the Orthodox
caucus
which uh helped me and they had a whole
bunch of lawyers to make sure that it's
going to be workable for the perspective
of American law otherwise it's worthless
took me another whole year to get a
proper draft and I went back the next
year this is now January of 92 and
that's when I have some time off from
the Yeshiva and I went again and
I went also to rabavadio safe
how I got to normal value saved another
long story but in that month that I was
there in those two weeks he gave me both
scum and myself
and he had comments which and his
beautiful handwriting in his blue pen on
some of the earlier drafts and by the
time I left I had a drift with
signatures first
then from rabba Raja and then I went to
Tel Aviv so the simple list they all
three signed this is a proper it's dated
I think we're something
done came back to America and I worked
on it we just went to work
I got two additional high schoolers in
America First from Rabbi liebis zal it
was a very distinguished and famous Rob
from the igorithm then for Rabbi
Schwartz that's all from the president
of America so now I had five
distinguished rap on them three from
Israel two from America done
I had asked a number of others
whose name I shall not mention right now
and they said you know it's okay but
like NIMBY not in my backyards not
happening in my community which sadly
caused a lot of grief since then fine
we went to work we did it okay now some
of the details what does it say what
does it say over there
so a little background what happens if a
couple is married so we all know the
Torah says he's obligated to support her
what happens if they're no longer living
in the same house
what's the din
clearance
that depends whose fault the breakup is
if the breakup is his fault he must
support him if the breakup is her fault
Hindi not support her they understand
very well that in our world of no fault
that no fault uh car insurance
everything is no fault because here you
find fault she'll turn white so we
describe or whose fault there really is
so what this does is tries to close that
Gap it says it's obligated to pay her a
reasonable amount I wish it was a
hundred dollars a day
it was on the time you wrote This
original article in 1988 50 a day that's
the amount that costs for full room and
board in a hotel
I'm not sure what hotel he had in mind
uh but anyway so we upped it then to 100
a day which was uh considered a
reasonable amount at that point in time
until about 1992. we went to work and
it's been in effect ever since so what
does it say aside from the arbitration
agreement that is going to go to the
best of America if there's a problem but
there's also a paragraph which reads
more or less like this all right the
other side here we obligate myself let's
call me after the case the parties break
up the lower living residents together I
hereby obligate myself to pay some of a
hundred dollars a day
of course if I refuse to uh abide by
what the business says Then I then uh of
course I have to pay if she refuses to
abide by the decision the recommendation
of the president
then it's a different story otherwise
she'll have to hold them up forever
and there was some other verbiage yes
please
so essentially
what's happening is is that we're giving
Rochelle's permission to the president
to decide fault or they're going to come
together is that how we're doing that
the answer is even if
he's saying that even if the fold is not
mine and the fourth is hurtful so if you
go with the strict laws of Heaven as a I
need not pay any money nonetheless I
decide to accept upon myself I'll pay
her anyway which is a 100 permissible we
got to some of the details later
is in addition there's another Clause
that he waves his rights to her earnings
because very often she's making much
more than a hundred dollars a day to the
math and therefore she'll say Okay okay
so you're giving you know
he'll say fine I'll give my address that
you give me 300 a day from your from
your earnings so what's what did it
accomplish that's also put in there is
it there are other phrases will perhaps
get to a little bit later on this is how
we've been going with that with that
assumption and we've been going with
that assumption ever since in terms of
later developments so uh I think it was
2008.
this is the original Hebrew was a very
spare there's a few lines and we had
made a number of of amendations and
additions so it was only right that we'd
be translated from the English to the
Hebrew so Rabbi Gardner took a pen in
his hand and translated the then English
into Hebrew he went back to signed his
name again and a new star on the horizon
who signed his name on it again even
wrote a very nice letter of
recommendation to myself and Rabbi
Gardner supporting it and uh we're very
happy to have his support he's a very
very well known in broader uh Torah
Society
okay so this is the very basic outline
now are there objections yes there are
objections there are objections as a
matter of fact
um I was asked to go to the greatest
Diana of the time
um I uh was asked
told me not to go because he's not gonna
won't be able to help you he was right
he smiled at me and said
also asking
that that's already a different uh
different uh personality it's very hard
to get into Rubio very hard to get into
him and when I finally got into him uh
over the objections of his main
associate Rabbi ephrati who who made our
personally to say that ah don't bother
the rough but I got into
to someone else who currently lives
Robinson you know how it is so ferrati
was a very
big gentleman even though I got in over
his head he's still introduced her of
the ocean as someone who's shalom
the two raging debates of the day I was
both on his side first was the brain
death issue and the second was the New
York get law issue which maybe we'll get
to later on
so that introduction of the Usher smile
to me and said you know God Rabbi
Morgenstern he is another very important
associate who's American born and
trained uh very very smart man he'll
tell you what I think of this and he
told me
one issue was which is printed by our by
God in the original article the person
will not know what he's signing
yeah again average cost does nobody's
silent now you tell you think he knows
me so many songs like silver
he doesn't even know the language
so I thought so what who cares who
doesn't know it it's it's obligated
anyway
that's objection number one objection
number two
that he thought it might end up in court
of course it's the opposite is true this
keeps it out of court
objection number three I don't
understand is that well he may want to
be giving a get which otherwise he may
not want to give that's exactly the
point there's someone says
the fourth objection which I understand
very well is something called asmakta
means the person who operates himself on
a contingency
and there's a many many details time was
not allowed to go into every last detail
of the asmakta issue I smacked the low
Kanye and we attempted to overcome that
uh issue within a number of ways number
one according to many authorities based
on a mission
it's only an exaggerated
obligation that's a problem we felt ours
is not exaggerated we're estimating how
much it costs to live that's number one
number two with certain technical
statements if a person says he's doing
it may actually the best of
that seems to overcome a smart according
to the
and that's why we thought we're we have
overcome that problem
now as one very smart lawyer from Israel
told me once wrote to me you know
wherever is against him because he wrote
a Triva that he thinks I smacked as a
problem even if you write Kenyan
he felt that it's still a problem with
respect to accepting obligations it may
not be a problem with respect to
transferring property but still with
respect to uh accepting obligations my
personal view is
is a hundred percent right according to
the Rambo
I think so however I do believe it's not
correct according to the time was not
allowed to go into the details of sugar
about an
Orangeburg okay but remarkably
Revelation never came out against our
prediction knew how to come out against
things as we all know he was famous for
him never I have a theory as to why it
never came out I can't prove it
Revelations
the same number and one he says what I
just told you that there's a problem
according to Discord but the two he has
a very simple question how can any super
obligation you add to a surface silver
apply smackda
he doesn't expect to have to pay
unexpect of the divorce his wife
so why
why then
why then is it effective is a great
answer
foreign
but we don't think it is in any event
that's my theory yes
so the third reason that you were saying
about that he's giving it against his
will does that touch on the which you
said I don't think is a problem at all
because that's what we wanted to do is
that touched on to get more sir that's a
totally separate I cannot answer that
question I don't understand what you
meant that person gives the cat he
doesn't want to let's say he doesn't
sign a prenup he has to give her
amazonas okay
so he's giving away get because he
doesn't want to give them his owners so
that's that's a good get every get is
that way so I don't fully grasp it
that's why I can't comment uh in detail
okay it's interesting uh a PostScript to
that a couple years later this is now
tough shindon hey three two years later
two things happen one they asked me to
print this whole I wrote a whole article
in Maria
you can print it
he said no don't print it so it's never
printed since then I still never printed
it
I feel that I'm going on princess I'm
not printing it
all the substantive facts
are strewn over my last safer uh
the substance of facts that animal out
of print but the the whole article is
still is still in in my in my hand
that's another thing happened the same
year a few months later it was a very
remarkable to the young lady from the
Hebrew Institute of Riverdale
and the young man from the Yeshiva farak
away at that time uh the uh assistant
to have a pair I mean pair with the
Russia the first prenup came from my
repair
foreign
that's all so that was that's very
important that's sort of a kind of an
arbitration agreement which is that is
good which is obviously good it's it's
it's like a mother and apple pie it
certainly is good and I should interject
now last year they made a Hess game
in Brooklyn where there has come of
everybody of Slimmer Miller who was
considered the pricing now in Lakewood
also signed on to it and guess what no
traction zero attraction it's not going
anywhere which indicates what I've said
all along
the main reason why our prenup was not
accepted in the yeshivas is not because
of the substance because it's something
which considered to be new
foreign
that's the real reason so as a matter of
fact
um this gentleman Robert Kaufman with
the time now he's in Waterbury he says
what do I do
I shiversary
now is that sound and what do I do
I said you know I spoke to him a few
years before he said it's okay just and
I knew he'd say it's okay and smart
could not be a private calling to him he
had a beautiful little could just call
me Dora Dora about yerusha it's all
based on the Shah khatizaka with exactly
the same type of a uh smarter but much
more difficult than ours it's so an
exaggerated sub and he still felt it was
okay so I knew he couldn't object even
though he's the number one cause of
Revelation in this particular day he
didn't agree he said that's not it works
fine anyway getting back so yes
everybody really could spend two minutes
if possible just giving what isn't as
much people listening what is US
briefly in the beginning it's an
obligation made upon a contingency if
this this happens the case of the
mishnah
if I will not work your field uh Shalom
Alpha zuzi give you a thousands which is
a million dollars that's not valid
I'll just tell you what I what I cost
you that works which is one of the
reasons why the non-exaggerated son may
work there are other ways to skin that
cat but not for now okay okay
continuously obligation but as I
mentioned earlier every example in case
it's a divorce I'll give you a lot of
money
okay let's go back so at that point I
wrote to Rubicon a one-page memo I faxed
it remember faxes I faxed it to him and
I have the original and I wrote the four
objections here but Morganson told me to
the Peterborough and remember the son of
the rabbi coffin does notwithstanding
that feel free to do the wedding with
this freedom so that's just a hysterical
fact going back to 1995. fine so when
Meandering along time goes by and
will fill you in that it's very
successful
why is it successful
because an individual who has an
obligation which is enforceable in the
secular court that he has to give a
hundred dollars a day then he is less
likely to be reconcitrant he can no
problem he can but it's just less likely
most people not interested in giving
money to the Superwoman no longer living
with and they may know the love they may
actually hate so that's it's been very
effective it's been very effective now
there's been some challenges to it
submit some challenges to it
um I'll give one example I think of
Connecticut someone said it's
unconstitutional because it's it's it's
it's a violation of certain Church state
things and the judge struck that down
it's a purely financial obligation we
had a fascinating case this is where we
we tweaked the document a little bit I
always say the documents out of Sarasota
we've been tweaking it all the time
but what happened was there was a
situation in which a couple somewhere in
Maryland
were getting divorced and the woman
asked for a divorce and the husband said
right I'll give it to us today I'll give
you again today
well she wasn't interested in taking so
fast so they went to the best of America
it took three months so they got an
appointment with the best why three
months when you needed
husband and wife Ethan had a lawyer and
I basically take lawyers NATO I know for
reasons maybe every wife will have time
to tell you why and three judges that's
seven people to get them in a room it
took three months good at the best he
says I give it again today
she said no
she doesn't want it today fine
took three years for him to fight it out
in court after three years are up he
gives a regret no problem
then he gets a love note from her
I need from you a hundred thousand
dollars
hundred dollars a day times three years
please give me a hundred thousand
dollars he said what
I was gonna give you the get the first
day came to our business it was a rare
Split Decision we almost have almost
unanimity in our cases Split Decision
what two judges said you know it's very
nice he came to business and said he's
gonna give a get but the first three
months he didn't count the medicine
the battle is his fault so he has to
give it ten thousand dollars for three
months
the third judge says that's ridiculous
he doesn't want to come the first day we
couldn't get everyone together he owes
zero
and our person there was an appellate
division you can appeal to the advanced
or so many designates
both sides appealed
she wanted 100 and he wanted zero sir by
schwartzell appointed me designated me
as the Appellate judge and I worked on
it you know hard and I wrote a decision
uh I grew up the first originally in
Hebrew that's what I always do I wrote a
kind of achiever and I wrote it in
English
he's obligated a total of zero
I follow the one judge against the two
she was infuriated even the ten thousand
she lost she went to the court in
Maryland to say that she should vacate
my decision why there's only two ways to
make a decision to arbitrate as one
corruption bribery ex parte which of our
best
you know we're not the best person in
the world
but our record on Integrity no ex parte
and the bribery I believe is spotless
and therefore the judge couldn't throw
it out in that basis she says irrational
an irrational decision can also be
thrown out so the judge comes back and
says irrational
that's a beautiful decision makes
perfect legal sense
so that was a feather in our cap that
was that story so we've had challenges
here and there look every judge
is a judge somewhere who who thinks it
shouldn't be buying it because it's sort
of forced into it
forced into it you want to buy my house
give me five million dollars you agree
and then you say no I was forced into it
absurd but self-judge wanted to say that
somewhere but as a rule has been it's
been upheld in the secular courts okay
so we're going along
everything's fine and dandy
um
there have been objections on the ground
but more recently uh I I can name the
rabbi because it's already printed now
name is
one of the greatest rabbis of our time
who was provoked by an individual the
name I will not mention it was a
troublemaker I whenever I think that he
wanted to promote a prenup of his own
but you know the way you do that is you
knock down every other prenup and it was
so dishonest he took signatures of of
rabbis in 1986 before our prenup even
existed uh
saying opposing a different prenup and
he somehow cut and pasted it as if it
spoke about our prenup which didn't even
exist at the time
but you know people who are have an
agenda don't always follow uh honesty
anyway so you can have a struggle to
write a to mention not print up by name
instead of sarabona and say it's no good
why is it not good because this app is a
penalty 150 a day we moved it from 100
to 150 somewhere my wife won't tell you
what year I forgot that's ridiculous
amount of money it's crazy so it's a
penalty clause and it's penalty Clause a
class oh that's a Ramon cuff was asked
was it good or no good my boss says it's
good but do you have it but I have
reasons to say it's not the way I'm in
Michigan it's yaakov and the whole two
of six pages
or based on a false premise
or based on a false premise we actually
went through a number of years ago and
we tell them that but yeah whatever he
did but despite that fact he's he put in
this safer anyway we tried our best
so
um
these objections are all you know
reasonable for those who don't know the
facts recently just recently I attended
a Candace
spoke there just a month ago at the very
beginning of July
and I had to get my facts straight
so I asked my my Economist for my shoe
whom I had asked some years back to
check out if 150 000 a day is reasonable
uh for the zip codes that we serve you
know by ZIP codes
he said yes at the time
and I asked him again to do to read to
redo the numbers years later
he told me except for a few zip codes
that we hardly ever served the number
should really be 200 000 a day
just yesterday someone called me
yesterday why isn't it 200 a day I told
him you know you're right you're right
my Economist just told it to me but it's
not necessary because
likely is to give it for 200 will give
150 as well we don't even want the track
is to say our numbers are exaggerated
yes what about Eric's sister oh so I was
asked somebody asked around their number
is 75 a day because it's uh the cost of
living is is small
so this is the prenup this is what it
says this is his history and we feel
confident that it's all likely valid and
I was standing uh those who have various
objections Rabbi black shalita was a
significant objective the grounds about
smackda and I recognized his position uh
he said we'll go back to osama's
original way which is a little bit
different instead of saying I owe you
the money from the time that we separate
which is rough simple this way which by
the way is
I believe as the president test
which is the sign of the atonement of
the ties of the 17th century because of
takana goes back to the 12th century
it's true
to our prenup thinks that that's not a
good president because they're the only
money is being given so she shouldn't
starve to death and here there's another
possible agenda my people checked up the
coins of the 17th century said much more
than that to staff to death so he feels
that uh my doesn't either way that's
it's not I don't think it's college at
all I think it's Joshua but in any event
it's a lack of the valid and the someone
who wants to do the app what are the
options
I owe you the money from today
from today from the moment of the it's
not a conditional obligation I owe you
the money every day or your hundred
dollars a day except as long as we're
living together
we separate in America anymore that's a
wrinkle which I would have done away
myself but the average American mind
doesn't understand that it's too
complicated yeah right but black is is
famous for its complicated formulation
which are always accurate but
doesn't understand these nuances so
since we feel that our our position is
correct we stick with it but someone
wants to do it by black I encourage him
to do it that way that's fine the sad
fact that most people and the only
machine was not using his not using mine
not even using this game which has a
scum of all their greatest red bottom
inertia inertia just shave our tasks
which ordinarily is a very good thing we
are very conservative we'll see religion
we don't like changes
is not a change if I'm correct
uh there are other halachic intricacies
Rabbi black thinks that the uh the
nakashiva Sima test only worked because
then at the power of Health Care Bears
and hefka they can impose it against the
will so it didn't have to agree my
counter with that is it's two parts of
Europe there was ashkenaz and Poland in
Poland this is all this is all those
secrets in the physical children and
evanesmer in Poland it worked against
the will even if you didn't sign it as
binding not an ashkenaz so Nationals
presumably it's not based on the
healthcare as an African based on the
person's agreement that's my counter
there's much more to be said this is
just the tip of the iceberg but I think
I've spoken too long
it's amazing it's uh very eye-opening
especially we talk about Limelight you
know who are putting in the time to at
least learn the deaf and they'll take
some time you know over the next
few weeks and these things stay around
so people you know they get an interest
I want to learn about a topic it's
available so to me eye-opening and so
much new information and so many things
to talk about and think about and
there's two parts in my mind always it's
just so much here to talk about and then
the Practical the practical application
of it which is what you intend the rabbi
Willie the Rob intended it to before and
at least in some circles it's going and
Mr Shem as the rough Souls holds it
so maybe you at some point it will
become a Joshua nation and be uh be more
accepted all for the the help of Cloudy
so for the betterment of Amish Weissman
um do you want to talk about a little
bit from a practical sense of what
you've been seeing beforehand obviously
you weren't around before pre pre prenup
but then we discussed that you had uh
wanted to talk about how it plays out
somewhat at the end when they come
actually for the get
sure yeah I'm happy to talk about that a
little bit for just picking up on on the
the kind of controversy over the 150
versus 200 and as everybody will point
it out it's not necessary because the
150 does the trick I think that speaks
to an important aspect of the prenup
which is that often we find when these
cases actually get played out the actual
threat of a dollar support obligation
whether it's under 50 or 75 dollars in
our Israel version whatever it is is
often almost an afterthought and is even
less important than the first provision
of the prenup which is the completely
not controversial provision which simply
names the best then meaning when people
sign a prenup and it names the president
of America that already Cuts past the
whole part of a controversial divorce
case meaning a potential a worst case
that involves potential recalcitrance a
lot of times those cases get caught up
in the stalemate that exists when the
wife wants to go to one beds then and
the husband wants to go to the other
best then and they can't agree and then
there's not an easy way to resolve that
case a saver of can't be issued because
each one is prepared to go to bed then
it's just that they're arguing over
which president and so having a prenup
song mind that names the president of
America
or names a particular business that's
responsible president and will see to it
that the get is arranged that alone
setting aside any kind of monetary
obligation not alone as a huge towellis
and uh it speaks to the fact that uh you
know even in segments in our community
that are less comfortable with Rabbi
Williams prenup for whatever reason
there is what to be said for for
advancing a prenup that uh that just
includes that first component yeah even
if the truth is you know the second
component is useful in some cases that
really cleans up what essentially every
case and it really allows it to have a
uh you know a full compliance rate and
allows us to be successful in ensuring
you get in in virtually every case but
there's what to be said just for you
know for emphasizing the first aspect of
the prenup which is you know naming a
bezel
which is what are they really mentioned
before is clearly ramosa Feinstein
already told her that part was was
simple push it and then advise you just
want to add that my wife was being kind
one best or another business what about
secular Court
what about secular chords that's a
tomorrow might even a bigger problem
aside from the Israel cause it's just
and I want to add one more point that I
did mention before
in our prenup
there is a uh an option
it's not mandatory because some women
didn't want to start
that the jurisdiction of the best
extends not just to the issues of the
get and the exuber and this support
agreement but all issues issues have a
distribution distribution of property of
custom visitation everything everything
if that is signed if all the monetary
aspects are given up to the peasant
that's a simple solution to what we'll
discuss later the Get Low problem the
Get Low problem is this terrible problem
because they can go to secular court and
they can impose a penalty and all kinds
of stuff but not if you saw an aprina
and include the financial part so that's
why it's an additional reason that uh
should be supported for r for r cleanup
or some other prenup just to get out of
secular Court yeah the signing the
optional problem kind of supercharges
the prenup it allows you to resolve not
just one problem not a problem of get
recalcitrance but also the problem with
this sarcos and the very practical
problem that nowadays in the United
States it takes a long time to get a
divorce you end up paying lots and lots
of money to where players you end up
fighting in court if you can't reach a
settlement early on you end up fighting
in court for a very long time there are
some counties in New Jersey now I think
who have uh just paused their divorce
docket because they're so overwhelmed
and you end up just just sitting for
months and months and months waiting for
a civil divorce to go through waiting
for a trial date it's it it's a much
much more streamlined process in based
in it's a hierarchically compliant
process invest in I should say first but
there are a lot of practical reasons why
uh why it's good to sign that optional
section just giving best in jurisdiction
overall issues one more practical
question I guess a two-part question so
the RCA and best of America as the best
then is there any um
I guess to use the phrase requirement
that a rabbi could not should not
officiate a wedding without a prenup A
and B just to understand because I've
seen people sign it years into their
marriage so how does how does that work
let me comment number one uh that's we
call that call that a post nub that is
something which is uh primarily to
create awareness primarily we hope that
after those years of marriage they don't
have no they'll last forever in their
marriage but it's a show of support
uh I do also say that it should be
signed well in advance when the husband
car company
I try to sign it right then and there in
the Yeshiva we have plenty of Adam they
come to see me right then and there we
sign it it's not a good idea to sign it
just before the wedding or at the
wedding they're for various legal
reasons in certain States and it's just
unseemly if you ask me uh so I I I don't
I don't do that
um uh but I think that uh the critical
nature is to get it done if it has to be
getting done then then later later but
must be the earlier the better and I
think that it's something which is
workable at least in in our Island will
I serve as Masada if they refuse to sign
it my answer is yes the Aussie is not so
happy with me because they want to make
it you know you have to do it that's not
my style
I I'm not I'm not the kind of a person
let's say you have to my way or the
highway just not me I would try to
explain to them why it should be done
and you know there's some people just
refuse to do it for various reasons and
sometimes they rule the day
but uh you had a famous case I used to
go to speak in the high schools
spoke of one of the famous girls high
schools I was invited to come over here
to speak to the high school seniors a
couple years later I got a call from a
young lady whose family I knew quite
well oh she's in trouble she's got
divorced or what about the prenup
well I I don't have one weren't you
there in my class sure well I decided
Well the rabbi told me I didn't need it
Famous Last Words blood was spilled in
that case can the greatest for about him
and I mentioned the names now blood
fanat for nothing for lack of a prenup
so really but again having said that I
still will do it but I recommend that
everyone should sign
you have more to talk about in the
implementation I guess we could move on
to New York Get Low
sure yeah the only thing I would add in
terms of implementation is I see these
cases on the other end meaning we're
talking now about signing it before the
wedding but
unfortunately there are marriages that
don't work out people get divorced and
the best of America just sees the the
caseload we see the numbers and it's a
no Doma case where there's a prenup to
where there's a to a case where there's
not a prenup when there's a prenup in
place it's just a whole different flavor
of a process it moves smoothly the best
in is empowered to send out as Manas to
schedule hearings to see to it that it
get is arranged and it get gets arranged
what you know there might be some
pushback for the first week or two or
three or even month but the the process
is just so much more streamlined and the
woman is assured that essentially is
assured that there's a get waiting for
her and that it will be delivered in a
timely manner so just that's the only
thing I would just say anecdotally uh it
actually works there's a real difference
that you could see uh between cases
where there is a prenup or there's not a
prenup
okay thank you so let's quickly shift
for the remaining our remaining time it
took a letter but with his time already
uh talk about the New York get law I'm
asking I think on behalf of many as an
ammo are at New York State get law what
does this mean what's the history of it
maybe why specifically New York State
and what what have been the objections
and however considerations for this New
York I'll be very brief in 1983 I
believe that's 40 years ago there was a
first get law which promotion functions
that sell approved
that was a Get Low which said if you
want a civil divorce there has to be a
get and uh the person who sues for the
Civil divorce could not get the divorce
that he sues for Less to get is given of
course the problem with that is very
simple the man doesn't sue for divorce
the woman suits with divorce in which
case the get law is completely
inoperative so that's how it went 1992
[Music]
um Ramesh was no longer with us uh
second get lowest best that's much much
more controversial there uh there was a
concept in New York called equitable
distribution and they many factors it
could be 12 or 13 factors and they added
one more which says that the judge shall
if I'm not mistaken out the word shout
take into consideration if a barrier to
remarried has not been removed as an
additional factor in equity distribution
what that means is plain languages that
the judge shall which means it sort of
has to not quite has to but ciao
doesn't just say may or can I said shout
take into account
their husbands refuses to give again and
on that basis the judge will rule that
you're not going to get the 50 you would
have gotten otherwise you only get 30
percent
that raises the Specter we got Musa
because we pass
not only if you beat somebody up some of
those sad cases you've read about
recently with people who are in jail for
beating people up which also renders to
get invalid in most cases that's not for
now but even if you take away his money
it's also again Musa you take away money
which belongs to him that's exactly what
this law is saying given the judge power
to do them so by black said and he wrote
emphatically with all the uh
significance of what he's writing he
thinks that the default position is
every get in New York state is no good
because every husband knows or his
lawyer knows that if he doesn't do it
the judge can't suck it to him that's
his position and you know the great
godola much
then this is not a takana it's a Sakana
it's a danger to to the cloud very
serious danger in my opinion is a very
serious problem
our Benson deals with this get law very
carefully we work very carefully to make
sure that it gets not been given based
upon that threat
we do the best we can we think we get it
right if we think there's a threat we
will not do it again uh the implicit
threat black refers to in every single
get it's a little bit far-fetched
because who said it who said they are
objective to giving yet in the first
place who said
there's much to be discussed whether you
know that position is right or wrong and
my black expression has not been
accepted as you said
get them in written for the last 30
years
um I believe that probably
I don't want to say anything bad I think
our best is probably the most careful
the most careful about seeing to it that
the an actual threat does not exist in
case that we deal with and with some
sometimes we will just add to it again
but it is it is a bird was a burden
before that law but certainly greater
burden after that law
okay
um I think uh well explained simple and
concise my wife want anything to add
no not really I think uh I was I haven't
said it all okay so just to close I want
to thank both the roshishiva and the Rob
and the avbezden for a beautiful sheer
and explaining the prenuptial agreement
and what the New York yellow is thank
you everybody Weissman for putting this
all together and it should only be uh
for all of us
and uh we shouldn't know we shouldn't
know from from gitin we should only have
happy marriages
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