Prenuptial Agreement; History, Document and Implementation

foreign [Music] to have joining me Rabbi Weissman of resident of America I believe he's the manal executive director of the dasden and Rabbi Mordechai willig or shashimi Chiva University and RAV in Young Israel of Riverdale and most importantly for this conversation the avbezden of the best of America we are finishing misaka's getting towards the end and I thought it would be interesting for the London on this platform and all over to understand a little bit what the prenuptial agreement is what was his history what is the actual document what some of the support or the last considerations of this document and hopefully at the end we'll have some time to speak about the New York get law I talk to myself I'm an amorits in both of these matters so everybody will like is a person who's been involved in both of these in yanum and we'd love to hear some of the halachic ramifications of both of these both of these Weisman could talk from a practical perspective what they have done and how they're implemented today so before I begin I just want to be Weisman for 30 seconds to introduce himself and The Business of America sure thank you Rabbi schwed first of all for having me for having us and for talking about this topic uh well I'll talk generally about the president of America the president of America is uh best and affiliated with the rabbinical Council of America with the RCA we also have a closed association with the OU um and uh I've been working at the veteran for about 15 years when I tell people what the president of America does the answer is we do the things that a typical besden does and usually I divide that into three spheres we handle matrimonial issues ranging from the Seder I get the actual technical implementation of a get people schedule an appointment they'll come and they'll do a get at the bazden sometimes our involvement with getting issues extends beyond that when there's recalcitrance when things get complicated when one spouse or another doesn't want to do the get or doesn't want to do the get now things now is not the appropriate timing for the get and so we'll get involved uh in some of the complications in that in terms of osmanas and cerem and uh see too that there's a process to sort through controversial issues like that and then our matrimonial practice extends into resolution of end of marriage issues when people get divorced uh they need to deal with financial issues custody issues all sorts of uh disputes that might arise between the parties and so we'll be involved in mediating disputes sometimes sometimes arbitrating disputes in a dentura um that's kind of one sphere of what one one-third of what we do the second third is DNA Torah generally where we're helping people resolve commercial cases business disputes that arise also through either mediation or through the din Tower process where typically you'll have a panel of three dionum and the parties will sign a binding arbitration agreement and we'll have hearings and issue of Sac and work through that help people try to resolve their disputes and the third area which we're involved is halathic personal status issues where people have questions about uh where where someone or rev has a question or the community has a question about whether the person is Jewish whether they're eligible to marry manzaris issues um unfortunately sometimes come up we have to deal with those um and um all in all we do that with our with relatively small staff uh very busy office handling hundreds of cases of year and all three of those Realms that's uh that's in a nutshell what the president of America is okay thank you the last thing that you mentioned about so we already discussed perhaps we'll have to bring yourself and everybody will look back when we learned that I feel me to have a conversation about so people like if you could give I guess we'll call it a brief sheer on the history of what was going on in the world before the prenuptial agreement what it is and what's happening now thank you very much everybody sweat for your kind introduction and inviting me to speak with otherwiseman it's very difficult and important topic I have no choice but to give you a personal history because otherwise it'll be incomplete to understand the whys of my involvement I'm celebrating it's hard to believe 50th year in their bonus in Young Israel Riverdale when I entered almost 50 years ago the Laguna issue already surfaced and rabbis found themselves fairly impotent to resolve these types of situations of recalcitrance would I change number one the seemingly exponential increase in the number of divorces the more divorce that you have the more complicated situations you're going to have and sadly in the Years leading up to my beginning in the Revenant the divorce rate increased and it's since then it's increased again that's number one number two this is not a new phenomenon where I bought him today lacked the authority of the previous generations to go back to pre-war Europe or let's say pre-emancipation Europe at a time when they were organized kehilos and there was a Arab in it with a chief rabbi and there was no escaping you couldn't get away the only way to get away was to convert to Christianity short of that you had to be part of a Healer by government Fiat and therefore there was a significant amount of sway that the local rather than has to try to resolve these issues this of course completely fell apart here in the United States and even before that so therefore the rabbi has a very few uh means at his disposal to try to get someone who doesn't want to give a get to give one very difficult to achieve anything and that's why these twin developments cause this serious problem when I began my rabbit so I designed it as a Young Man very young man that's not happening on my watch I'm going to try to do something about it you know something okay but I had a honeymoon the first 15 or so years of my rap bonus and another problem there were a couple of divorces but the people resolved on themselves that didn't ask me the woman ever asked me for her help but of course like I think all good hunting was it ran out and in the very late 80s I was involved in a situation which was precisely such a situation where after trying to help the ship with Sheldon bias Etc uh the woman asked for again and she was right to ask for it and the man said if you don't do this or that you'll be a naguna I felt like a a bull with a red flag in front of him this is exactly what I said I won't let happen on my watch and now it's happening on my watch what do I do about it so I felt we have to tell the fellow you know this is not right what you're doing you should please give the get and he was a good guy she was a wonderful woman both but just they couldn't get past it so the the wonderful balabas did what organ do he went to a different rabbi went to a different rabbi and because he was such an honest person really he told it I knew both sides he told his story from his perspective to the name of the rabbit was Robbie Jonathan rosenblatt of the river Jewish Center told him his thought of the story and the rabbi said yes we have to give again the two strikes takes three so he went through Avi Weiss from the third show then this is back in the 1989 and said his story and he said again you have to give again all right now he sort of struck out but he's still not giving it again so after a while this is right after circus of that year 1989 we did something which is very rare in our circles today the three of us were the maletta called him up and said please do not return to our shows until you give your wife again the months went by from after circus until pesach and he was not in any of our shoes he went to some little shoe for retirement he's a private show and then as it happened our Yeshiva was learning getting that year and before pesach I told my Tommy them listen we're learning 80 busier getting that everyone's now finishing that if you want me let's do something for Claudia so let's just focus from now I have to pay stuff on this thorny issue and try to do something for the cloud okay so we started learning right after PESA and the courage was very good three days they have to pay that week after Payson we started learning the get was given what happened what changed well as a judge the judge was a non-observant female Jewish judge who gave the following decision I'm going to split your assets 50 50. but if you give the get within 10 days I give you 55 percent instead of punishing him she rewarded him which is a completely close to get the get was given and was told his ear exactly two weeks after Payson began that job as he came to my show I told the guy bye you have to give him shlishy he says six months he's Persona nagrada and I get solution I said exactly for six months he wouldn't give a get and I gave the guy he deserved salishi so he got schlichi after the next Aaliyah I went over to shake a sandwich and he wasn't half so happy as initials but yep we're friends he remarried she remarried that's the way there's a partial of Garrison in the Torah for a reason okay meanwhile we got started a few days into this project we kept going so the first thing I discovered and looked at the Modern literature was an article which had been written exactly two years before in a very prestigious Journal called Maria in Aries Israel I didn't know very famous now but then he was sitting in a coil somewhere in May I show him and he had written a beautiful article where he quoted Goldberg the name which is Hardy fellow then also about a certain uh approach which apparently had never been discussed before many other suggestions have been made I don't have the time to go into them right now but none of them enjoyed uh a broad rabbinic uh approval fine so someone put me in touch with me I called them up and he was very very polite to me he's a God will be Israel I was really uh very uh very very distant from his level of learning but it's very nice to me and we started corresponding back and forth starting from we'll say uh if motive here all the way for about eight months were corresponding and I realized to move this forward I have to meet this man the person and see what happens so it was now up to January of 1991 I flew territor Israel to meet this God will be Israel and we meet we said he's always very very respectful he had his wonderful Robinson they both passed away not that long ago she's a daughter from she was so nice to me uh amazing but then he says after all this we have eight months of Correspondence already you can't just do the space of one Rabbi you gotta speak to somebody else the cloud one I said who should I go to please go to a prime symbolist the Tel Aviv these were Pals from yet both in William and the youth and the symbolist was such a great diet the revolution considered him the number one diet in all of Israel how do I know but the whole panovic fight broke out and it did a shellish he asked of a symbolist to take that responsibility for which he got busy on us till the very end of his life which is you know a sign of a good diet anyway so uh I went to meet him in Tel Aviv and uh I came to his house he looks over it was written says you know I don't like it so much and he turned it around a different way the opposite way sort of the details we'll discuss momentarily I was so depressed eight months I put on this Rabbi a says this or maybe says that nothing's going to come with the whole thing thinks for a minute says we'll do it his way we'll do it this way that's you know we realize what are the proof taxes of districts partial parachas akev I saw it in my own eyes in a heartbeat he said okay we'll do it his way if they had printed the other way two years ago already it's now almost three years ago we'll do it his way good so I'm back and forth and back and forth and back and forth to get proper uh conclusion fine I go back home at the time I was helped by a group called the Orthodox caucus which uh helped me and they had a whole bunch of lawyers to make sure that it's going to be workable for the perspective of American law otherwise it's worthless took me another whole year to get a proper draft and I went back the next year this is now January of 92 and that's when I have some time off from the Yeshiva and I went again and I went also to rabavadio safe how I got to normal value saved another long story but in that month that I was there in those two weeks he gave me both scum and myself and he had comments which and his beautiful handwriting in his blue pen on some of the earlier drafts and by the time I left I had a drift with signatures first then from rabba Raja and then I went to Tel Aviv so the simple list they all three signed this is a proper it's dated I think we're something done came back to America and I worked on it we just went to work I got two additional high schoolers in America First from Rabbi liebis zal it was a very distinguished and famous Rob from the igorithm then for Rabbi Schwartz that's all from the president of America so now I had five distinguished rap on them three from Israel two from America done I had asked a number of others whose name I shall not mention right now and they said you know it's okay but like NIMBY not in my backyards not happening in my community which sadly caused a lot of grief since then fine we went to work we did it okay now some of the details what does it say what does it say over there so a little background what happens if a couple is married so we all know the Torah says he's obligated to support her what happens if they're no longer living in the same house what's the din clearance that depends whose fault the breakup is if the breakup is his fault he must support him if the breakup is her fault Hindi not support her they understand very well that in our world of no fault that no fault uh car insurance everything is no fault because here you find fault she'll turn white so we describe or whose fault there really is so what this does is tries to close that Gap it says it's obligated to pay her a reasonable amount I wish it was a hundred dollars a day it was on the time you wrote This original article in 1988 50 a day that's the amount that costs for full room and board in a hotel I'm not sure what hotel he had in mind uh but anyway so we upped it then to 100 a day which was uh considered a reasonable amount at that point in time until about 1992. we went to work and it's been in effect ever since so what does it say aside from the arbitration agreement that is going to go to the best of America if there's a problem but there's also a paragraph which reads more or less like this all right the other side here we obligate myself let's call me after the case the parties break up the lower living residents together I hereby obligate myself to pay some of a hundred dollars a day of course if I refuse to uh abide by what the business says Then I then uh of course I have to pay if she refuses to abide by the decision the recommendation of the president then it's a different story otherwise she'll have to hold them up forever and there was some other verbiage yes please so essentially what's happening is is that we're giving Rochelle's permission to the president to decide fault or they're going to come together is that how we're doing that the answer is even if he's saying that even if the fold is not mine and the fourth is hurtful so if you go with the strict laws of Heaven as a I need not pay any money nonetheless I decide to accept upon myself I'll pay her anyway which is a 100 permissible we got to some of the details later is in addition there's another Clause that he waves his rights to her earnings because very often she's making much more than a hundred dollars a day to the math and therefore she'll say Okay okay so you're giving you know he'll say fine I'll give my address that you give me 300 a day from your from your earnings so what's what did it accomplish that's also put in there is it there are other phrases will perhaps get to a little bit later on this is how we've been going with that with that assumption and we've been going with that assumption ever since in terms of later developments so uh I think it was 2008. this is the original Hebrew was a very spare there's a few lines and we had made a number of of amendations and additions so it was only right that we'd be translated from the English to the Hebrew so Rabbi Gardner took a pen in his hand and translated the then English into Hebrew he went back to signed his name again and a new star on the horizon who signed his name on it again even wrote a very nice letter of recommendation to myself and Rabbi Gardner supporting it and uh we're very happy to have his support he's a very very well known in broader uh Torah Society okay so this is the very basic outline now are there objections yes there are objections there are objections as a matter of fact um I was asked to go to the greatest Diana of the time um I uh was asked told me not to go because he's not gonna won't be able to help you he was right he smiled at me and said also asking that that's already a different uh different uh personality it's very hard to get into Rubio very hard to get into him and when I finally got into him uh over the objections of his main associate Rabbi ephrati who who made our personally to say that ah don't bother the rough but I got into to someone else who currently lives Robinson you know how it is so ferrati was a very big gentleman even though I got in over his head he's still introduced her of the ocean as someone who's shalom the two raging debates of the day I was both on his side first was the brain death issue and the second was the New York get law issue which maybe we'll get to later on so that introduction of the Usher smile to me and said you know God Rabbi Morgenstern he is another very important associate who's American born and trained uh very very smart man he'll tell you what I think of this and he told me one issue was which is printed by our by God in the original article the person will not know what he's signing yeah again average cost does nobody's silent now you tell you think he knows me so many songs like silver he doesn't even know the language so I thought so what who cares who doesn't know it it's it's obligated anyway that's objection number one objection number two that he thought it might end up in court of course it's the opposite is true this keeps it out of court objection number three I don't understand is that well he may want to be giving a get which otherwise he may not want to give that's exactly the point there's someone says the fourth objection which I understand very well is something called asmakta means the person who operates himself on a contingency and there's a many many details time was not allowed to go into every last detail of the asmakta issue I smacked the low Kanye and we attempted to overcome that uh issue within a number of ways number one according to many authorities based on a mission it's only an exaggerated obligation that's a problem we felt ours is not exaggerated we're estimating how much it costs to live that's number one number two with certain technical statements if a person says he's doing it may actually the best of that seems to overcome a smart according to the and that's why we thought we're we have overcome that problem now as one very smart lawyer from Israel told me once wrote to me you know wherever is against him because he wrote a Triva that he thinks I smacked as a problem even if you write Kenyan he felt that it's still a problem with respect to accepting obligations it may not be a problem with respect to transferring property but still with respect to uh accepting obligations my personal view is is a hundred percent right according to the Rambo I think so however I do believe it's not correct according to the time was not allowed to go into the details of sugar about an Orangeburg okay but remarkably Revelation never came out against our prediction knew how to come out against things as we all know he was famous for him never I have a theory as to why it never came out I can't prove it Revelations the same number and one he says what I just told you that there's a problem according to Discord but the two he has a very simple question how can any super obligation you add to a surface silver apply smackda he doesn't expect to have to pay unexpect of the divorce his wife so why why then why then is it effective is a great answer foreign but we don't think it is in any event that's my theory yes so the third reason that you were saying about that he's giving it against his will does that touch on the which you said I don't think is a problem at all because that's what we wanted to do is that touched on to get more sir that's a totally separate I cannot answer that question I don't understand what you meant that person gives the cat he doesn't want to let's say he doesn't sign a prenup he has to give her amazonas okay so he's giving away get because he doesn't want to give them his owners so that's that's a good get every get is that way so I don't fully grasp it that's why I can't comment uh in detail okay it's interesting uh a PostScript to that a couple years later this is now tough shindon hey three two years later two things happen one they asked me to print this whole I wrote a whole article in Maria you can print it he said no don't print it so it's never printed since then I still never printed it I feel that I'm going on princess I'm not printing it all the substantive facts are strewn over my last safer uh the substance of facts that animal out of print but the the whole article is still is still in in my in my hand that's another thing happened the same year a few months later it was a very remarkable to the young lady from the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale and the young man from the Yeshiva farak away at that time uh the uh assistant to have a pair I mean pair with the Russia the first prenup came from my repair foreign that's all so that was that's very important that's sort of a kind of an arbitration agreement which is that is good which is obviously good it's it's it's like a mother and apple pie it certainly is good and I should interject now last year they made a Hess game in Brooklyn where there has come of everybody of Slimmer Miller who was considered the pricing now in Lakewood also signed on to it and guess what no traction zero attraction it's not going anywhere which indicates what I've said all along the main reason why our prenup was not accepted in the yeshivas is not because of the substance because it's something which considered to be new foreign that's the real reason so as a matter of fact um this gentleman Robert Kaufman with the time now he's in Waterbury he says what do I do I shiversary now is that sound and what do I do I said you know I spoke to him a few years before he said it's okay just and I knew he'd say it's okay and smart could not be a private calling to him he had a beautiful little could just call me Dora Dora about yerusha it's all based on the Shah khatizaka with exactly the same type of a uh smarter but much more difficult than ours it's so an exaggerated sub and he still felt it was okay so I knew he couldn't object even though he's the number one cause of Revelation in this particular day he didn't agree he said that's not it works fine anyway getting back so yes everybody really could spend two minutes if possible just giving what isn't as much people listening what is US briefly in the beginning it's an obligation made upon a contingency if this this happens the case of the mishnah if I will not work your field uh Shalom Alpha zuzi give you a thousands which is a million dollars that's not valid I'll just tell you what I what I cost you that works which is one of the reasons why the non-exaggerated son may work there are other ways to skin that cat but not for now okay okay continuously obligation but as I mentioned earlier every example in case it's a divorce I'll give you a lot of money okay let's go back so at that point I wrote to Rubicon a one-page memo I faxed it remember faxes I faxed it to him and I have the original and I wrote the four objections here but Morganson told me to the Peterborough and remember the son of the rabbi coffin does notwithstanding that feel free to do the wedding with this freedom so that's just a hysterical fact going back to 1995. fine so when Meandering along time goes by and will fill you in that it's very successful why is it successful because an individual who has an obligation which is enforceable in the secular court that he has to give a hundred dollars a day then he is less likely to be reconcitrant he can no problem he can but it's just less likely most people not interested in giving money to the Superwoman no longer living with and they may know the love they may actually hate so that's it's been very effective it's been very effective now there's been some challenges to it submit some challenges to it um I'll give one example I think of Connecticut someone said it's unconstitutional because it's it's it's it's a violation of certain Church state things and the judge struck that down it's a purely financial obligation we had a fascinating case this is where we we tweaked the document a little bit I always say the documents out of Sarasota we've been tweaking it all the time but what happened was there was a situation in which a couple somewhere in Maryland were getting divorced and the woman asked for a divorce and the husband said right I'll give it to us today I'll give you again today well she wasn't interested in taking so fast so they went to the best of America it took three months so they got an appointment with the best why three months when you needed husband and wife Ethan had a lawyer and I basically take lawyers NATO I know for reasons maybe every wife will have time to tell you why and three judges that's seven people to get them in a room it took three months good at the best he says I give it again today she said no she doesn't want it today fine took three years for him to fight it out in court after three years are up he gives a regret no problem then he gets a love note from her I need from you a hundred thousand dollars hundred dollars a day times three years please give me a hundred thousand dollars he said what I was gonna give you the get the first day came to our business it was a rare Split Decision we almost have almost unanimity in our cases Split Decision what two judges said you know it's very nice he came to business and said he's gonna give a get but the first three months he didn't count the medicine the battle is his fault so he has to give it ten thousand dollars for three months the third judge says that's ridiculous he doesn't want to come the first day we couldn't get everyone together he owes zero and our person there was an appellate division you can appeal to the advanced or so many designates both sides appealed she wanted 100 and he wanted zero sir by schwartzell appointed me designated me as the Appellate judge and I worked on it you know hard and I wrote a decision uh I grew up the first originally in Hebrew that's what I always do I wrote a kind of achiever and I wrote it in English he's obligated a total of zero I follow the one judge against the two she was infuriated even the ten thousand she lost she went to the court in Maryland to say that she should vacate my decision why there's only two ways to make a decision to arbitrate as one corruption bribery ex parte which of our best you know we're not the best person in the world but our record on Integrity no ex parte and the bribery I believe is spotless and therefore the judge couldn't throw it out in that basis she says irrational an irrational decision can also be thrown out so the judge comes back and says irrational that's a beautiful decision makes perfect legal sense so that was a feather in our cap that was that story so we've had challenges here and there look every judge is a judge somewhere who who thinks it shouldn't be buying it because it's sort of forced into it forced into it you want to buy my house give me five million dollars you agree and then you say no I was forced into it absurd but self-judge wanted to say that somewhere but as a rule has been it's been upheld in the secular courts okay so we're going along everything's fine and dandy um there have been objections on the ground but more recently uh I I can name the rabbi because it's already printed now name is one of the greatest rabbis of our time who was provoked by an individual the name I will not mention it was a troublemaker I whenever I think that he wanted to promote a prenup of his own but you know the way you do that is you knock down every other prenup and it was so dishonest he took signatures of of rabbis in 1986 before our prenup even existed uh saying opposing a different prenup and he somehow cut and pasted it as if it spoke about our prenup which didn't even exist at the time but you know people who are have an agenda don't always follow uh honesty anyway so you can have a struggle to write a to mention not print up by name instead of sarabona and say it's no good why is it not good because this app is a penalty 150 a day we moved it from 100 to 150 somewhere my wife won't tell you what year I forgot that's ridiculous amount of money it's crazy so it's a penalty clause and it's penalty Clause a class oh that's a Ramon cuff was asked was it good or no good my boss says it's good but do you have it but I have reasons to say it's not the way I'm in Michigan it's yaakov and the whole two of six pages or based on a false premise or based on a false premise we actually went through a number of years ago and we tell them that but yeah whatever he did but despite that fact he's he put in this safer anyway we tried our best so um these objections are all you know reasonable for those who don't know the facts recently just recently I attended a Candace spoke there just a month ago at the very beginning of July and I had to get my facts straight so I asked my my Economist for my shoe whom I had asked some years back to check out if 150 000 a day is reasonable uh for the zip codes that we serve you know by ZIP codes he said yes at the time and I asked him again to do to read to redo the numbers years later he told me except for a few zip codes that we hardly ever served the number should really be 200 000 a day just yesterday someone called me yesterday why isn't it 200 a day I told him you know you're right you're right my Economist just told it to me but it's not necessary because likely is to give it for 200 will give 150 as well we don't even want the track is to say our numbers are exaggerated yes what about Eric's sister oh so I was asked somebody asked around their number is 75 a day because it's uh the cost of living is is small so this is the prenup this is what it says this is his history and we feel confident that it's all likely valid and I was standing uh those who have various objections Rabbi black shalita was a significant objective the grounds about smackda and I recognized his position uh he said we'll go back to osama's original way which is a little bit different instead of saying I owe you the money from the time that we separate which is rough simple this way which by the way is I believe as the president test which is the sign of the atonement of the ties of the 17th century because of takana goes back to the 12th century it's true to our prenup thinks that that's not a good president because they're the only money is being given so she shouldn't starve to death and here there's another possible agenda my people checked up the coins of the 17th century said much more than that to staff to death so he feels that uh my doesn't either way that's it's not I don't think it's college at all I think it's Joshua but in any event it's a lack of the valid and the someone who wants to do the app what are the options I owe you the money from today from today from the moment of the it's not a conditional obligation I owe you the money every day or your hundred dollars a day except as long as we're living together we separate in America anymore that's a wrinkle which I would have done away myself but the average American mind doesn't understand that it's too complicated yeah right but black is is famous for its complicated formulation which are always accurate but doesn't understand these nuances so since we feel that our our position is correct we stick with it but someone wants to do it by black I encourage him to do it that way that's fine the sad fact that most people and the only machine was not using his not using mine not even using this game which has a scum of all their greatest red bottom inertia inertia just shave our tasks which ordinarily is a very good thing we are very conservative we'll see religion we don't like changes is not a change if I'm correct uh there are other halachic intricacies Rabbi black thinks that the uh the nakashiva Sima test only worked because then at the power of Health Care Bears and hefka they can impose it against the will so it didn't have to agree my counter with that is it's two parts of Europe there was ashkenaz and Poland in Poland this is all this is all those secrets in the physical children and evanesmer in Poland it worked against the will even if you didn't sign it as binding not an ashkenaz so Nationals presumably it's not based on the healthcare as an African based on the person's agreement that's my counter there's much more to be said this is just the tip of the iceberg but I think I've spoken too long it's amazing it's uh very eye-opening especially we talk about Limelight you know who are putting in the time to at least learn the deaf and they'll take some time you know over the next few weeks and these things stay around so people you know they get an interest I want to learn about a topic it's available so to me eye-opening and so much new information and so many things to talk about and think about and there's two parts in my mind always it's just so much here to talk about and then the Practical the practical application of it which is what you intend the rabbi Willie the Rob intended it to before and at least in some circles it's going and Mr Shem as the rough Souls holds it so maybe you at some point it will become a Joshua nation and be uh be more accepted all for the the help of Cloudy so for the betterment of Amish Weissman um do you want to talk about a little bit from a practical sense of what you've been seeing beforehand obviously you weren't around before pre pre prenup but then we discussed that you had uh wanted to talk about how it plays out somewhat at the end when they come actually for the get sure yeah I'm happy to talk about that a little bit for just picking up on on the the kind of controversy over the 150 versus 200 and as everybody will point it out it's not necessary because the 150 does the trick I think that speaks to an important aspect of the prenup which is that often we find when these cases actually get played out the actual threat of a dollar support obligation whether it's under 50 or 75 dollars in our Israel version whatever it is is often almost an afterthought and is even less important than the first provision of the prenup which is the completely not controversial provision which simply names the best then meaning when people sign a prenup and it names the president of America that already Cuts past the whole part of a controversial divorce case meaning a potential a worst case that involves potential recalcitrance a lot of times those cases get caught up in the stalemate that exists when the wife wants to go to one beds then and the husband wants to go to the other best then and they can't agree and then there's not an easy way to resolve that case a saver of can't be issued because each one is prepared to go to bed then it's just that they're arguing over which president and so having a prenup song mind that names the president of America or names a particular business that's responsible president and will see to it that the get is arranged that alone setting aside any kind of monetary obligation not alone as a huge towellis and uh it speaks to the fact that uh you know even in segments in our community that are less comfortable with Rabbi Williams prenup for whatever reason there is what to be said for for advancing a prenup that uh that just includes that first component yeah even if the truth is you know the second component is useful in some cases that really cleans up what essentially every case and it really allows it to have a uh you know a full compliance rate and allows us to be successful in ensuring you get in in virtually every case but there's what to be said just for you know for emphasizing the first aspect of the prenup which is you know naming a bezel which is what are they really mentioned before is clearly ramosa Feinstein already told her that part was was simple push it and then advise you just want to add that my wife was being kind one best or another business what about secular Court what about secular chords that's a tomorrow might even a bigger problem aside from the Israel cause it's just and I want to add one more point that I did mention before in our prenup there is a uh an option it's not mandatory because some women didn't want to start that the jurisdiction of the best extends not just to the issues of the get and the exuber and this support agreement but all issues issues have a distribution distribution of property of custom visitation everything everything if that is signed if all the monetary aspects are given up to the peasant that's a simple solution to what we'll discuss later the Get Low problem the Get Low problem is this terrible problem because they can go to secular court and they can impose a penalty and all kinds of stuff but not if you saw an aprina and include the financial part so that's why it's an additional reason that uh should be supported for r for r cleanup or some other prenup just to get out of secular Court yeah the signing the optional problem kind of supercharges the prenup it allows you to resolve not just one problem not a problem of get recalcitrance but also the problem with this sarcos and the very practical problem that nowadays in the United States it takes a long time to get a divorce you end up paying lots and lots of money to where players you end up fighting in court if you can't reach a settlement early on you end up fighting in court for a very long time there are some counties in New Jersey now I think who have uh just paused their divorce docket because they're so overwhelmed and you end up just just sitting for months and months and months waiting for a civil divorce to go through waiting for a trial date it's it it's a much much more streamlined process in based in it's a hierarchically compliant process invest in I should say first but there are a lot of practical reasons why uh why it's good to sign that optional section just giving best in jurisdiction overall issues one more practical question I guess a two-part question so the RCA and best of America as the best then is there any um I guess to use the phrase requirement that a rabbi could not should not officiate a wedding without a prenup A and B just to understand because I've seen people sign it years into their marriage so how does how does that work let me comment number one uh that's we call that call that a post nub that is something which is uh primarily to create awareness primarily we hope that after those years of marriage they don't have no they'll last forever in their marriage but it's a show of support uh I do also say that it should be signed well in advance when the husband car company I try to sign it right then and there in the Yeshiva we have plenty of Adam they come to see me right then and there we sign it it's not a good idea to sign it just before the wedding or at the wedding they're for various legal reasons in certain States and it's just unseemly if you ask me uh so I I I don't I don't do that um uh but I think that uh the critical nature is to get it done if it has to be getting done then then later later but must be the earlier the better and I think that it's something which is workable at least in in our Island will I serve as Masada if they refuse to sign it my answer is yes the Aussie is not so happy with me because they want to make it you know you have to do it that's not my style I I'm not I'm not the kind of a person let's say you have to my way or the highway just not me I would try to explain to them why it should be done and you know there's some people just refuse to do it for various reasons and sometimes they rule the day but uh you had a famous case I used to go to speak in the high schools spoke of one of the famous girls high schools I was invited to come over here to speak to the high school seniors a couple years later I got a call from a young lady whose family I knew quite well oh she's in trouble she's got divorced or what about the prenup well I I don't have one weren't you there in my class sure well I decided Well the rabbi told me I didn't need it Famous Last Words blood was spilled in that case can the greatest for about him and I mentioned the names now blood fanat for nothing for lack of a prenup so really but again having said that I still will do it but I recommend that everyone should sign you have more to talk about in the implementation I guess we could move on to New York Get Low sure yeah the only thing I would add in terms of implementation is I see these cases on the other end meaning we're talking now about signing it before the wedding but unfortunately there are marriages that don't work out people get divorced and the best of America just sees the the caseload we see the numbers and it's a no Doma case where there's a prenup to where there's a to a case where there's not a prenup when there's a prenup in place it's just a whole different flavor of a process it moves smoothly the best in is empowered to send out as Manas to schedule hearings to see to it that it get is arranged and it get gets arranged what you know there might be some pushback for the first week or two or three or even month but the the process is just so much more streamlined and the woman is assured that essentially is assured that there's a get waiting for her and that it will be delivered in a timely manner so just that's the only thing I would just say anecdotally uh it actually works there's a real difference that you could see uh between cases where there is a prenup or there's not a prenup okay thank you so let's quickly shift for the remaining our remaining time it took a letter but with his time already uh talk about the New York get law I'm asking I think on behalf of many as an ammo are at New York State get law what does this mean what's the history of it maybe why specifically New York State and what what have been the objections and however considerations for this New York I'll be very brief in 1983 I believe that's 40 years ago there was a first get law which promotion functions that sell approved that was a Get Low which said if you want a civil divorce there has to be a get and uh the person who sues for the Civil divorce could not get the divorce that he sues for Less to get is given of course the problem with that is very simple the man doesn't sue for divorce the woman suits with divorce in which case the get law is completely inoperative so that's how it went 1992 [Music] um Ramesh was no longer with us uh second get lowest best that's much much more controversial there uh there was a concept in New York called equitable distribution and they many factors it could be 12 or 13 factors and they added one more which says that the judge shall if I'm not mistaken out the word shout take into consideration if a barrier to remarried has not been removed as an additional factor in equity distribution what that means is plain languages that the judge shall which means it sort of has to not quite has to but ciao doesn't just say may or can I said shout take into account their husbands refuses to give again and on that basis the judge will rule that you're not going to get the 50 you would have gotten otherwise you only get 30 percent that raises the Specter we got Musa because we pass not only if you beat somebody up some of those sad cases you've read about recently with people who are in jail for beating people up which also renders to get invalid in most cases that's not for now but even if you take away his money it's also again Musa you take away money which belongs to him that's exactly what this law is saying given the judge power to do them so by black said and he wrote emphatically with all the uh significance of what he's writing he thinks that the default position is every get in New York state is no good because every husband knows or his lawyer knows that if he doesn't do it the judge can't suck it to him that's his position and you know the great godola much then this is not a takana it's a Sakana it's a danger to to the cloud very serious danger in my opinion is a very serious problem our Benson deals with this get law very carefully we work very carefully to make sure that it gets not been given based upon that threat we do the best we can we think we get it right if we think there's a threat we will not do it again uh the implicit threat black refers to in every single get it's a little bit far-fetched because who said it who said they are objective to giving yet in the first place who said there's much to be discussed whether you know that position is right or wrong and my black expression has not been accepted as you said get them in written for the last 30 years um I believe that probably I don't want to say anything bad I think our best is probably the most careful the most careful about seeing to it that the an actual threat does not exist in case that we deal with and with some sometimes we will just add to it again but it is it is a bird was a burden before that law but certainly greater burden after that law okay um I think uh well explained simple and concise my wife want anything to add no not really I think uh I was I haven't said it all okay so just to close I want to thank both the roshishiva and the Rob and the avbezden for a beautiful sheer and explaining the prenuptial agreement and what the New York yellow is thank you everybody Weissman for putting this all together and it should only be uh for all of us and uh we shouldn't know we shouldn't know from from gitin we should only have happy marriages [Music]