Naftuli Moster on Leaving, Fighting, and Coming Back

It's so hard to leave. It's so hard to leave. Well, guess what? Any community that you're in is hard to leave. >> I want to discuss what Yafed is or was, what um footsteps is or was because I I have no idea. Um yeah, now I feel like I'm in the box. >> One thing I would never say publicly, but inside I did feel it and I think people could tell. It's not people are not dumb. That's one thing about the Karedi leaders, you got to give them a ton of credit. They can see a threat a mile away. So when you were trying to do the positive message, the focus wasn't anymore on education, the focus was rather on here are pictures from a mental health AIA with 150 and this is ongoing. And I said, >> you're right. I want to teach people you be who you are. Keep all the mitzvah, keep all the and all. I get it, but be proud of yourself, >> right? You know, >> I am a community leader and I I'm telling you, >> welcome to another episode of Positivity. Super excited to be here with my guest Napali Moer. Um, this episode is a very interesting episode and conversation. Some people might not know Napali at all, which I I think can still be valuable to hear his journey of how he felt a certain way about education, what he's done about it, what that process uh was like and shifts in his own personal life, which I think can be very inspiring. more so I think can be inspiring for people to enjoy this episode by seeing how he now chose community and to come out and openly say that the way he approached certain things that he did wasn't the right way. more than anything his compassion um to community um currently I think speaks very very loud and he is I think a very smart and bright person that has good ways of bringing it out with your examples and and personal life experience for a lot of us that we choose the the community or an orthodox community we were brought up that way for you you were you were there kind of left it and chose it Again, I think that that can be very valuable for any person. For me, it was very valuable because I felt a lot more lucky after listening to some of the things that you said. I felt a lot more lucky that I am part of this community. And I'm seeing it in a whole different light. And my hope is that everybody listening to this episode will feel the same way and feel once again proud when they look at their neighbor, when they look at their community, when they look at their even Kahila or Reba or school that they went to with a greater appreciation for for what it is and what it actually does for them. So, I'm very excited to share with you this episode. Let's get into it. Do you have a big electric bill? Solar might just be the answer. People today's saving up to 60 70% through switching to solar and the panels group helps you do that. You can get 100% financing for the solar. Even if you need a new roof, they can also put that into your monthly payment so you can get a new roof for your house. You can reach out to them and get a free quote. The number is 347-4352327. You can get $500 off when you mention this podcast or Weber servicing New Jersey or Muny neighborhood or anywhere where you can need solar even in Arizona. Reach out to the panels group again 43 347-4352327. So >> welcome to the show. >> Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Um, yeah. I remember when I reached out to you, I was actually surprised because in some circles I was so well known, too well known, you know, and I spoke to you and I was like, "This guy doesn't know me from beans." And it was a little surprising. Then I spoke to the producer here who also I guess the younger generation >> maybe I skipped a generation or something, right? Okay. >> I think um it was much more heated for a certain like generation. And I I can't figure out the generation Gen Z, Gen X and all that stuff, but basically um a lot of people have known about this sort of the mar as as it was called for secular education and um but basically just to take your viewers back a little bit about myself, how I got to start this advocacy and so on and so forth and then where I am now. >> Feel free to interrupt me. I'm sure you're you're going to have a lot of questions, but um I grew up bells. I am the middle child of a very big family. I have 16 siblings. So I'm the middle child. Um actually from a family as I mentioned in the moment. Um my you know my name is after the um so we have a lot of and um you know I had a you know a hectic upbringing obviously 16 siblings um my my father is a rebel of a little shul in the back of our house and um so it was like a little bit of an interesting upbringing because it's not the norm once you're like a little bit different it's put you on a different back. Um but anyway um you know in Beld for yes well first of all in in I was like one of the best best kids bestim um just truly the the rebes loved me I knew everything I was you know I give the example in the moment um magazine of like when the belove came all the way from he would only come visit America once I don't know once every 10 years once every seven Um they made sure that Napolei must have was right there in front because you know he goes around to the different classes and he really has a question or two and like must go right here ask a question and boom I know the answer and it's great. Um but anyway I was a good book and all that but then I was in when I was in Belgiva at some point I remember sitting around like it was like in the evening it was just like very few people were like it was during shakas or even after that like very few people brim were actually learning it was like the people's heads were down they were drinking coffee smoking cigarettes outside in the hallway and at some point that's where sort of like the the bug came into my head about education I was like, wouldn't it be nice if we learned a little bit of something that'll prepare us because we're going to be getting married soon. >> That's sort of where the bug started coming in. I actually remember um I guess that was like sort of my first community organizing where I started asking other book what they think. Um I just realized, am I supposed to be speaking in English this whole time? >> Yeah, it's all English. It's fine. >> Um I remember asking other book I'm like, what do you think if like we could bring someone to teach some, you know, English, math, things like that? And of course they were like, "Ah, it's never going to happen." But um then I came home from yeshiva and I was not married yet. I still had um older siblings. So I decided to to enroll in college >> and I heard about Mala Pan. It's like a branch of Toro College. It's in the heart of Bar Park. So it sort of like had a level of like a kosher stamp of approval. The fact that it's right there on 13th Avenue. Um, but most didn't go there and especially not a b like an unmarried man. >> But I I basically got in, I snuck in, I started and and I was interested in going to school to become a psychologist. This was when it was still not so popular. Now everyone goes to therapy and everything, but back then it wasn't. Y >> and um so that's why I started and and just getting into college was very difficult because they expect you to come with a certain you have to have a high school diploma >> and obviously we didn't have it because to get a high school diploma you have to go to you have to go to high school and you have to learn English, math, science, social studies, a bunch of things and I didn't have it. So it was like a whole roundabout way of how to get in and it was um it was a lot of stress and then finally I did get in. I felt like I was struggling a lot in in school. So that's where it really started, you know, where this whole thing began. And um over time, I sort of like went OTD, you know, if you will, and got into footsteps and things like that. And >> okay, I'm sorry. I don't want to just want to break it up. So basically, this is a that I just heard of. 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So basically you started your own journey and you you did the journey till about the age of 20 was perfectly fine and then you wanted to become a psychologist and go and learn and you noticed how poorly educated you are in terms of probably spelling or writing or something like that which made you notice that okay there's there might be also a problem in education over here because I was a young kid a young bk and I didn't even have the I didn't even have a way to see if I'm being well educated or But in the real world or in the or in the big world I am not clearly not educated which I guess made you feel a certain shame or something like okay I'm I'm limited >> and in that and that resentment I guess fueled you to >> become not so religious >> basically. >> Yes. Okay. So so let me give you like some more specifics. when I was in school first of all even though it was in the heart of borrow park back then I would say only half of them were and they were like sort of like people who also weren't in the box and a lot of them were like litak or even I don't know less than that so to speak >> so you had people who had a decent English a decent education and then you had some people who did not there was like one guy from Williamsburg there was actually one guy from Keriso um I still remember and we we we had some good times. Um, you know, but the reality is that I felt clueless, especially because it wasn't just >> if it was a a bunch of them only, like I feel like I would have fit right in, you know, >> but it was a mix. >> The school system, you mean a school system? >> I'm saying that that school even though it was in the heart of Bar Park, it had there were a lot of like nonidum. So let's say I'm sitting in a classroom and I'm sitting in the back and they're teaching us something and I I wanted to learn. I was the same way I was a good bish I also wanted to be a good college student. So if I didn't understand something which was a lot of things >> I would raise my hand and I would ask >> and sometimes it was relatively dumb. >> So so the whole class would turn around be like who is that whatever sorry for the language who doesn't know this basic thing. You know what I mean? Um, I remember this. This is silly because this is not even the kind of thing you necessarily would learn in school. >> Yeah. >> But I remember asking who OJ Simpson was. >> Yeah. >> Most of your viewers don't know for two reasons. First of all, because of the education, but also because >> it's an old story, like the newer stories that happened, but back then OJ Simpson was still a reference point, right? >> And I'm sitting in the back and I raised my hand. Who's because the the teacher gives an example, >> right? >> Something about OJ Simpson. And I raise my hand who's OJ Simpson and like in unison everyone turns around and this is one example of many um so yes it sort of instilled in me a certain like shame and over time I became not you know less religious and look nowadays I'm beginning to recognize how much social media um which was relatively new was brand new back then had an impact in sort of steering me away from the religious life and we can get into it a little bit more about why I feel that way. But the reality is I was moving away from it and once I was in a different with a different group of people um it sort of like just made sense like why don't I take on the whole community why don't I just fight for you know for yes education you know and so I decided to sort of I started pursuing it and started having some meetings with government officials and other community organizations not not so much karish organizations I tried a a little bit but not much. Mostly I felt like I was already out of the community so I knew that I would have no legitimacy in the community >> between me and you. So I kind of like >> self uh I don't know how you say it like almost self excluded myself by by only working from the outside and that was that was the big mistake. >> Yeah. >> That was the big mistake from the beginning. um which I feel like it had terrible repercussions because as you started off there's a legitimate cause here and I've said it before even though I've moved myself away from the cause and I went I know I went about it the wrong way um the truth is most of the community will say yeah you know our education is not so good it would be great if it if it was a little bit better but because of the way I went about it it backfired >> it wasn't done from within. So now they had to sort of like circle the wagons, use the expression and so forth. >> So what are some of those biggest mistakes that you feel you made? >> Well, the very first big mistake is going to the government. >> Mhm. >> You know, in this community and really in any community, if you're trying to like be like a a member of the community, you're trying to affect change and you're trying to be wellreceived, you don't go and maser on them right away. >> Right. So what what would have been the better approach? >> The better approach would have been to start meeting with Rabunim um and community activists and um see where they how they feel about it. See where they feel, you know, and look, you lay out you could make a good case that a lot of people even if they're successful like you've given yourself as an example, right? >> Yeah. you're successful and there are a lot of people like this, but if you speak to them, they'll say, "Yeah, it would have been nice if I could speak a more fluent English, if I could do better math, you know, um, and and in which case I think it could have had some sort of impact." Number one, number one, the little English they taught they could be take a little bit more serious. You're saying inveud not so much. But my point is that they could take the the little time that they do provide they could take it more serious. Maybe they could increase the time a little bit. Maybe they could introduce it to Yeshivana, which I know would be like very controversial, but >> I don't think so. I I happen to think that it it would be very valuable. I did Yeshivana and it is 14 hours. Yeshiva was, I believe, 15 hours of school. Why not have for an hour a day you teach math or just basic know I mean I don't see what would be wrong with that you know um >> that's what I agree with you it's all a matter of how it's done on the other hand I would argue what would have if if I would have gotten more education so again I took I was a very serious student English happens to be the the the one time that and I call it English because I think that's how they call it and right but that's not the word that they would use correctly. >> It's general education, you know, >> general education, whatever. But so let's call it English, how they call it. >> Yeah. >> Um, I took that very serious personally. I I enjoyed that time of the day. I see >> as a kid. So I would I would study hard with my friends that actually studied hard the other part of the day as well because I remember who my kavisa studying was in English >> and I took it very serious and up until this day I very good at writing spelling I have a good handwriting I'm very good at math all these things >> so the question is is my excluded from the that should do a little bit more >> or or did they do enough. >> I don't know. >> Assessing now the situation. Okay. So, the way you approach it is wrong. But is there actually a problem? >> May I ask you how old you are? Just cuz I'm trying. >> You're 28. So, technically, you know, you were going to when this was all happening. So, it could be the made a little bit of improvements in response to the complaint. >> Maybe. But um look, the truth is at this point I'm not even sure um because part of my um my journey or my evolution and the way I'm thinking has shifted in the sense that I think there's something very valuable about a community that holds to itself. I think education in the in the rest of the world includes way too much garbage that kids don't actually need. >> Yep. >> Things that cause destruction to society. Um, I don't even mean like the the harshest things, the LGBT stuff, even even basic things or or things that we consider basic. It is it is irrelevant. It's time consuming and it's just brings in ideas that we don't need. Um, it's a bigger it's a bigger topic. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> but I think that um a closed society has is is a good thing especially in a world where people don't have much identity. They don't know who they are, where they belong to um and so on and so forth. I think what the community has been able to do to hold on to this so tight >> is is a good thing. >> Like that's the way I see it now. I know even you may not see that. So you're saying basically that the fact that they are limited to only that hour and a half of English and in the English that they teach or secular education they only teach writing, reading, spelling >> and math >> arithmetic. Yeah. >> And I think we had a money book or something but these five things are the strongest that I remember. >> You're saying that is better than the education of a full day of psych education where the different things come in. If it comes with all >> you have to choose one or the other. >> If it comes with all the garbage that's being taught in the public schools. Absolutely. >> And is this part of your change? >> It is. Yes. That's what I'm saying. >> So, I really love how this conversation is going and I'm getting hungry and I've heard about this new product. Live tasting. 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Metagitten Munch, Mitagitten Crunch, make sure to check out these delicious croutons in the both of these flavors. You have a spicy flavor, you have a sea salt and vinegar flavor. Make sure you pick up your bottle and when you do, please send me a picture and give me your feedback, your honest feedback on this product. Enjoy the episode. So, that's one part of your change. Another part of your change is I guess because in general you acknowledge that community is important and if if you don't choose this community which other community do you choose or which where where else do you belong? >> Let's get to the community you back to this. >> Let's get to the community later. >> I'm just trying for people that listen that they should understand. >> No, we'll get to it. >> What's happening in this conversation? >> Yes. First let's focus on the education. did want yeah because in the beginning I did want to I did want to sum up your journey which I don't think I did I gave my opinion on it but I did want to sum up your journey which is that you were a very strong advocate for secular education and that I think I mentioned it briefly but that pushed you kind of out of the community so to speak to a place where you like I said you weren't religious but then you noticed that hold on I I do need a community. Um, so two things changed like I just mentioned. Number one, you said, "Oh, hold on. That whole approach of how I did it was was definitely wrong, especially now that I have my own kid and I see um it's two parts. Number one, it was wrong. Number two, I also have a kid that needs education. Number two is that I definitely want the community back, which is a place that I left or or a people that I resented." >> Um, so those those were the changes. >> Let me get to that soon. And now we're here at the part where you say, "Okay, let's let's have a conversation because I'm still an advocate just for a different thing or I'm just I'm I'm still a person that wants to share and and help people but in different ways or I want to make things right in different ways." I think that sums up who you are. So for the viewers to understand because in the first 20 minutes of this conversation, it can >> it could be a little bit confusing as to who are you? Where where is this going? >> I see what you're saying. Yes. So, definitely the reason I'm here is because I've shifted a lot a lot of my perspective and and you know, you've decided to bring me on here because of moments uh you know, featuring me. So, clearly there's been a big shift. >> Correct. >> For people who who know my past, >> I was known as a as an advocate for secular education. And um going back to the timeline is you know we started like meeting with government officials but it kept being ratcheted up. Okay. And at some point it went sort of way beyond education because people were basically pointing out to me you have a closed community that generally doesn't bother anyone else. So how can you get anyone to care about the fact that they don't provide an education? You have to make it you have to make them feel it. You have to make them feel like it's hurting them. So like, oh, if you look, you see that there's poverty, high poverty numbers in the community and high dependence on government assistance. That's going to upset average people, >> right? Nonaredum, non-orthodox Jews. That's going to upset them. That's going to anger them. And they're going to be your allies and advocating for change. And that's why, you know, I went from being like, okay, whatever, like a bit of an act activist for yes education to being like the the sa, you know, the number one hater. >> Um, because I basically started pointing out all the all the different problems and it was like everything was got dirty. >> Everything was leading back to secular education. Oh, if only they got a secular education, uh, there wouldn't be poverty. There wouldn't be dependence on government assistance. they would they would not violate the COVID rules. Um everything was, you know, >> so when you were trying to do the positive message, the focus wasn't anymore on education. The focus was rather on here we have this guy that's hurting us in different ways or making us look bad in different ways. >> When I was trying to do a positive message, what did you mean by that? >> That you were you were going to focus on education, >> right? But the way to focus on education, it ended up being focusing on Jewish people in general and what they do, right? >> It was it was it was very bad. >> And >> what happens is you have to start sort of finding your allies. You have to start finding who are the people who are going to like support you. So I ended up sort of like pushing myself in a corner with some of the most >> whatever I don't know how to describe >> negative energy kind of people. >> Negative energy people who who are like fringe in many different ways. upset. >> No, but I don't just mean I I don't just mean exac them. There's a lot of that, too. But in general, within the political world, there's sort of the fringe >> and it just, you know, I one day I find myself I'm like surrounded by these people and it's very hard to extricate yourself from it. >> Um, as much as they mock or they criticize the community that it's it's so hard to leave, it's so hard to leave. Well, guess what? Any community that you're in is hard to leave. Correct? You know, especially if there's an incentive to stay. So, but then came the issue of me having to choose a school for my own kid. >> And that was like a big eye opener when I was like, >> yeah, >> there's no way I'm sending him to a public school. >> I had worked in public schools before. And I'm like, I know what it what goes on there. And I'm sure there are some good ones and some worse ones, >> but there are quite a few bad ones. And frankly, even the good ones, >> I quickly realized that I don't want him to learn some of the stuff that they're going to be teaching. And by the way, I always talk about this big spreadsheet we put up in our kitchen as we were going through these discussions. My wife is more of a researcher. So, she wanted to create like a spreadsheet, okay, with the X the Y-axis and the X-axis, you know, and there's like types of schools and what are some of the features they have, right? Yeah. >> Um, obviously Jewish education, which was important to us, secular education, which was important to to us, still is to a degree, right? um we didn't want screens. Um and we had a big thing that we didn't want them to start brainwashing them about some of the gender issues and stuff like that. >> And at the time we were convinced that we would l land land in a conservative Jewish school >> and I remember when we were going you go on this on tours we're going to a school and they were bragging about how they are so welcoming of trans kids. M >> I was like even the fact that it >> if you do it that's one thing if you are welcoming of the kids >> the fact that you that this is a big topic of a conversation when someone comes to tour the place >> is is an immediate red flag to me right I'm just giving one example >> and ultimately we were like wow >> an orthodox education is probably going to be the best one part of it was also because we looked at the conservative community in general conservative reform and we saw that there's no future trajectory there. I'm sorry to say it. >> No, I'm saying the numbers are shrinking terribly. And part of it, which is mentioned in this article, is how we would sometimes occasionally go to conservative shooles in Rockland County when we lived there. Um, and it was kind of sad. It was very sad. You walk into a shel that is massive. It can hold hundreds of people and there are eight people, okay? And maybe that includes four people on Zoom. >> It was like it was so so sad to watch. We'll get into this later, but modern Orthodox is also very much shrinking because there's modern Orthodox Mahmir/hivish and the modern Orthodox community is is also shrinking. So, I know this firsthand. >> We'll get into that, too. Um, >> but I think it's I think in a sense they're not upset about it because they're okay moving moving towards Florida, which is warmer, let's just say. So they're they're okay that it's not that it might be falling apart because they all want to be parts of the people that say, "Oh, okay. I'm I'm just going to do more. I'm just gonna become somewhat warmer or whatever the word is." But they're they're very >> Florida and warmer. >> Yeah. >> I first thought you were referring to the weather. >> Yeah. >> Are you? >> No, I'm I'm referring to they're okay that it's falling apart on my north of they're not resenting it. They're very very okay with it. And I happen I don't know if I told you this or if you know this. My wife is modern orthodox. >> I heard from your other podcasts. >> Yeah. >> And I want to hear I want to hear more about it. >> Yeah. >> Um I heard some of your discussions on the differences between you know modern orthodox people being closer or similar to more similar to Yeah. >> versus litfish. Um I agree with some >> I want to discuss that with you as well. >> So that's I don't want to get Yeah. I don't want to get into the nitty-gritty of the story. >> Got it. >> Where you were because I don't think it's relevant. >> Meaning I've heard a long version of your story. I don't think that it's going to be interesting necessarily because it's in the past. We just had no meaning >> not just like physically, emotionally, mentally it's irrelevant. I'd rather want to have a conversation with you now. How you see it looking back. I want to discuss what Yafed is or was. what um footsteps is or was because I I have no idea. Um yeah, >> now I feel like I'm in the box. I had a whole conversation with my friend here on the podcast, Bucks or not. >> Um he also made me feel a tremendous gratitude towards community because you are right. Everybody needs an association, a place where they belong, a place where they would you know we they we need belonging. This is something that throughout the history thousands of years all people have agreed we need a belonging. We need a place. We need community. We need a family. Love. >> Um, >> we didn't we didn't even have to agree. It it was just >> Yeah. >> The same way we knew we had to eat. >> Yeah. >> You know, you have like an internal thing that tells you you're hungry. You have an internal thing that tells you you're sleep. You have an internal thing that tells you you need community. >> And today's days, I feel like we live in a world where people try to deny some of the like basic realities of of the world of of nature, >> right? And it's it reflects a lot in this idea of community where people think that they could just live anywhere. They could just be anywhere and they could be alone. I like my alone time. I like my alone space. And it also reflects in other places. It also reflects in other places where when it comes to like I could be anything I want in terms of gender and stuff like that. So this is a bigger critique of of the the world that we're in. I think technology and social media contributed a lot to the place that we're in. But um I want to I want you to steer the conversation because >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Go ahead. If you have like specifics. >> So I do have specifics. I want to try to keep it on the on the thing. >> What what was what was Yafed? What was the point of that like I I my my respect for you grew when I saw like founder executive director of Yafed. So try to in short what was it? What is it? Whatever. It's funny when I first started Yafet, I didn't know what a what a nonprofit was. I didn't know what advocacy was. Didn't know anything. But anyway, eventually it came to it. Um, I put in a lot of sweat and blood. So, eventually I was able to put it together. But basically, it was a nonprofit organization that was fighting to improve. I put it in quotes because I think it was also to hurt >> the the achieve education. >> Was it to hurt or you used the method of hurt to get to achieve your mission? It depends who you know answer I was very resentful and one thing I would never say publicly but inside I did feel it and I think people could tell it's not people are not dumb that's one thing about the leaders you got to give them a ton of credit they can see a threat a mile away no 10 miles away they're not dumb they're some of the smartest people so even though I was speaking very nicely about how it's just about improving education so people can do better and all that The truth is that I also did want to in some ways undermine the system as we know it. >> Okay. >> The idea is like everyone should be able to choose. Right. A big part of it was that I had such a hard time going OTD that I wanted to make it easier for everyone else to go OTD. >> Wow. >> Right. So, so that is something that the community knows, the leaders, you know, can figure out very quickly. So to answer your question, >> on paper, Yaf was here to improve secular education and >> but between me and you the subtext as well as if you think about who was supporting it, who was doing it, who was supporting it, OTD people, secular Jews, other nonedi Jews, what's their what's their interest? Oh yeah, we want to improve the we want to improve theidic. Of course, between me and you, there's there's automatically a certain idea that we know what they should really be like. We know what a good life is. Yeah. And they should be they should be like that. We should make them be like that. Um, and this and the crazy thing is now in hindsight I look back and I'm like I think back of like individuals that I that used to support it and I'm like >> like if you look at their lives it's not like they could be wealthy, they could be they could be influential, they can have a good business, >> but I don't envy their lives. I don't think they have a good life. I I think they're relatively lonely. I think I think their life their lives lack meaning >> and purpose and fulfillment and and ironically they were hoping to get that kind of fulfillment by supporting a cause like Yafed. >> Yeah. >> And and I have to say subconsciously there's something else to it. It makes them feel better about their lives because otherwise many people they look at the community automatically they have a certain level of respect and jealousy. Okay. It's a fact. You see a community that is so tight, that is thriving, it's vibrant, it's growing by leaps and bounds, you can't help but automatically be jealous about it. >> Yep. >> But the moment you can find problems in there in that community, then it makes you feel a little bit better about yourself, right? >> You know, okay, you see, it's not a good it's not a good community. It's a terrible community. It's abusive. It's it's it's don't provide an education, forced marriages, mit they can find all a whole list of things of how terrible the community is. And in my opinion, now with the benefit of hindsight, I think that's what that's why so many people are eager to point out these flaws in the community >> because they're jealous. >> I do think so. So what what I also get to is that the fact that you had this and although you were in government or in councils or and making a somewhat maybe like you said valid point to the point where maybe some parents agree that English can be a little bit better but the push back from or powerful individuals in the karate community was a lot more powerful to the point where it didn't really work and that to me >> is pretty cool. You know, >> it's very impressive. Uh the community puts up a fight like no one else. And that tells you, >> well, they're powerful. >> It's not just powerful. They have something to protect. You see, if you don't have something to protect, you don't have to fight for it, fine. You want to change the law about, I don't know, immigration, fine. Want to change the law about this or that. when you have a when a community has when they strongly believe in their values and their religion and their system, they protect it. And I think that's actually kind of beautiful. >> Was there a real claim to what you were saying? >> Yes. I think most people know there's a real claim to what I was saying. >> So the real claim is take it a little bit more serious. Now I'm saying was there a real claim in the government? Meaning is is is there an actual problem? Like can is there a a law requirement? Yes, that was that was basically the entire premise of my advocacy. What happened was while I was at footsteps or whatever in that kind of crowd, I discovered that there's a law that requires all schools including non-public schools, which means private schools, private schools, >> which includes yeshivas, need to provide an education that is quote at least substantially equivalent to public schools, which means >> the education they provide has to be at least very very similar, >> a half a day >> to what the public schools provide. What does it mean? the the government didn't have very clear rules about it. That's part of why the fight was able was taking so long. >> Um and by the way, New Jersey has similar language. Actually, most states have similar language, but they all >> So, you also fighting that law, not just the school. You were fighting that law. They make it clear what the requirements are. >> So, I didn't I I thought I thought the law was clear enough as in >> English, math, social studies. Yeah. like you were kind of saying, a half a half a day at least, you know, of secular education. Um, and again, at the time, I didn't really care if the yeshivists are forced to cut back, cut off half of their Jewish education in favor of secular education. Now, I really appreciate the Jewish education. >> Not just because people are like, "Oh, it makes you think. It makes you whatever." There's that, too. But I actually think the value of a certain people and in our case it's the Jewish people learning our books, learning our history >> most of the day. >> Yes. Wow. Is so is so important and again there were two things that happened by the way. It was >> two things that happened to me with my change. One was seeing the benefit of the Jewish education. The other part was seeing the opposite in the rest of the world. seeing the negatives in their education. When you combine those two, like I always remind people, this isn't to say that the community doesn't have flaws. This isn't to say that the education system is good enough, right? Like you said, it it can and perhaps should be improved. I'm not the right >> and it is getting improved. >> And it is improving. Yeah. >> Because it really is. >> So, but but when you combine those two, it was like a no-brainer. like I don't want to mess with this system when what I'm seeing on the outside >> is so much worse. Yes, they teach more English. Yes, they teach more math, science, whatever. >> But on the whole, I don't envy what I see on the >> In other words, the the Kari secular education is at least filtered to what is really going to get somebody through in life. >> I'm looking at the whole picture. >> That's how I see it. What I'm saying is yeshiva system in general. >> Like I remember when I was already like internally I was changing but I didn't have a way to yeah tell the whole world >> some some journalist from a different country far away like Ukraine or something. >> Came to the US and they asked me to meet with them and I was trying to tell them I'm no longer doing this. >> Yeah. >> But I met them anyway. I had they wanted to meet me in bar park and it happens to be we had a sim so I was like fine. and I came an hour early and we met and I basically tried to tell him it's a non-issue but then we walked a little bit down 13th Avenue and I remember seeing it was like in the winterish and it was getting dark early and like two two little boys were coming back from yeshiva and they were just like looking into a food store just like from the window looking at the books over there. Um, it was such a sweet photo and it was such a sweet picture and it reminds me a lot of my own son, you know, being very into reading. Yeah. >> And I know what's happening on in the rest of the world. Like kids are glued to TV, glued to tablets. >> Wow. >> And and all of that stuff. And it's like, is it really that bad after all? Not so much, you know. >> Wow. >> You know, it's interesting hearing it from you because you have a lot a lot to back it. By the way, for me, it was looking into galpas and waiting for the next inclusion. That's album. >> Hey, my son recently got a 246. I don't know if you know what that is. >> Yes. >> Boy, is he obsessed with that. >> So, you're really Lvish cuz 246 is very Lish happens to be. I mean, respect the 246 and the people, but this is it's their brand. I think it's a you know, a Lidish guy who created it. First of all, just the fact that this device exists in this day and age is actually like a miracle. And it's it deserves its own story, its own, you know, its own front page story in the New York Times, like other issues about the prestigious community. >> But it happens to be I've become such an extremist about screens that even that is too much for me. >> Wow. >> But it's great. They give parents like real easy parental >> in the car. I mean, it's right. >> No, no, it's in your pocket. It's in your hand. >> Okay. They also have some things that that constantly update. Like I would love an MP3 player where it's like the music is there, you push a button, you play, you put it down, you don't have to look at it because it's just playing, >> right? >> They do have some things that make you come back to the screen which I don't like. >> Conversation for a different time. Not trying to knock 246. >> Yeah. >> Um, you know. >> Okay. To sum up the Yafed, what were you actually successful? Is there something that was successful and made a change? >> It's hard to tell. or or what had the biggest impact or nothing really stuck. >> It's hard to tell. In some ways, it was harmful because again, there's a strong argument to be made that change was going to happen, >> right? >> There were there was a crop of sort of chilled activists. You know, I don't want to maybe name drop, but if you think of like the the people who are currently maybe elected officials and other activists of a slightly older generation than you who were predisposed to wanting better secular education, but they were going to do it from within. >> I came along and I sort of destroyed the whole the whole thing. >> Now, it was like a fight against most >> against Yafa. There's another problem is that I've given I've unfortunately generated a lot of content, a lot of material than a negative about the community. >> So that's a negative especially in today's world with anti-semitism, >> you know, and especially combine it with AI. >> AI, you type in a query into AI asking information, they're digging up, >> they're consolidating all the information that >> people like me have fed it for the last 20 years. Um so and it's so that's what it's basing its entire knowledge on. So we have to undo that but you know that's going to take years. Um so there was so there was quite a bit of you know damage that was caused. Could there have been some improvements that came out of it? I don't know. >> No. Is there a day that you woke up and you said oh wow maybe this mission is working? >> Yes. >> Always I'll tell you there were multiple. First of all when the government would say fine we're going to come out with new regulations new rules. Right. remember when we talked about how the law wasn't clear enough. Yes. So, they were like, "Fine, we're going to clarify the law." >> Wow. >> Um things like that. Um or when I would get tips from someone that, you know, this yeshiva is is improving their education and even if they're not going to admit it publicly, it is because of Yafa, I was like, "Oh, it's nice. It's nice to hear." >> But nothing physical on a major level where it was like, "Okay, the government sent a letter to every school. You have to have minimum three hours." >> No, they did send who? So what? >> It didn't change. And and that's the that's the whole point. The community has too much to to protect. You know, now I understand it >> now that I have a kid in the >> yeshiva system. >> I think about like how I wouldn't want someone like my former self to go out there rather >> screens or teach us about >> and by the way it happens to be like every school can improve including my kids school. every school can improve, >> but this idea of someone who's not part of it >> to try to sort of dictate and get themselves into it >> is is basically >> is a scary thought. So like in hindsight, I'm like I totally get them. You know, I used to have a question that I truly believe I told you in the beginning of this episode of this interview that I truly believe that most people want to see some improvement to the education system. I still believe that. And I kept asking myself, if that's the case, why are they not speaking up? Why are they sending petitions to the government? I don't know if you we haven't gotten to this point, but they were like, there was a time when the government was putting out these new rules and they said, "Send us your comments." It's a it's a system that happens all the time, >> a process. And there were like tens and tens of thousands of comments against the new rules, which means parents sending comments against the rules. And we had very few people supporting the new rules. And I thought to myself, where are all these supporters that I go around saying we have >> secret supporters in the community now? It makes sense to me in some theoretical level. They want to see improvements to the education system. Again, like we all want there's always room for improvement, but this idea that the government is going to come in and who knows where it's going to go, right? um um you know what's the what's the expression where it's like one thing will lead to another you don't know where where it's going to lead what they're going to demand the schools provide you know >> what did you say >> domino effect >> there's something else there's a slippery slippery slope slippery slope is the word and I'll tell you during this whole thing in England >> the government was also cracking down on on yeshivas and guess what over there they were very clear that part of the problem they had with yeshiva was that they're not teaching about the LGBT lifestyle. >> Oh wow. >> I got to tell you when I heard that as much as I was openly saying publicly saying don't worry our government isn't asking for that where we're just talking about the basics deep down I was like what's to stop them? What's to stop them from >> already looking into yeshivas in schools. >> What's to stop them from eventually demanding >> wow >> that as well? >> You know, you live in a liberal state. They expect everyone to know about this wonderful >> Yeah. >> range of lifestyles. >> Yeah. For me, it sums up that there that there was a lot of things that happened, but not nothing necessarily that made a I was curious how far you got in the campaign. But I I guess I have my answer. I'm curious what is um Footsteps? I heard about this organization. >> Um I heard the name. >> Yeah. >> Is it an organization? What's their goal? Who runs it? What's the point over there? >> Okay. Footsteps is an organization that helps people who leave the >> community. Okay. Community. >> Um at least that's what it should be. should be an organization that helps people who desire to leave. The idea is at least again from my perspective is that even if we don't want people to leave, but if people do leave, it shouldn't be a death sentence. You know what I mean? Like I get the the we want to we want to avoid people leaving, we also want to make it we want to disincentivize leaving. So I can see the logic for saying there should be no safety net on the outside. That way you have nowhere to go, right? You have to come back. But I could see both ways. But so what I'm saying is in theory, Footsteps is there to help people who've decided to leave. Um in practice, I think they do much more than that. They sort of like um first of all, they introduce people to the secular world more so than what they're necessarily looking for. And um and again, maybe they see it as part of their mission to help once you've decided to leave to help you learn about the whole world that you're joining. >> Um and because they have a very liberal bent, >> they automatically introduce you to things that um are more on the sort of left side of the spectrum, >> right? >> Um you know, again, gender is one of them, right? Um, it's like one of the first things you come there, you automatically like get challenged about when you say you're a man or you say you're you're straight. Everything suddenly is up for discussion. Everything is now sort of >> you join a whole world where it's like there's no there's no limits. There are no outer boundaries. And I think that that causes a lot of significant problems because some people, yeah, it was tough in the community. They needed a break. They needed to get away, but they could still have a certain respect for the community, >> right? But once you go there and you sort of like get immersed in this whole new >> Yeah. ecosystem and the whole new also a new lexicon like a whole new dictionary of words and and you start learning you know and like this practice that the community does is oppressive this is sexist this is this that you know what I mean everything has a negative title so it's like it unnecessarily pushes people farther away from the community and also towards taking on causes even like the one that I used to >> right >> push. >> Right. Got it. Um I did forget that I >> which by the way you know this is like a little bit of a plug for myself more recently I started my own initiative. It's like literally still >> fledgling but it's called >> and it's meant to serve as an alternative to footsteps. >> Oh wow. >> That that it's basically hoping to do two things. First of all to help prevent people from leaving the community. Not from a religious Yeah. Not from a religious perspective, >> from a community perspective, >> from a well-being perspective because you know when you look >> which is sorry to interrupt which is super popular in the last five years that people are deciding I don't have to they say OTD stands for on the derek >> right >> and I and I just love that and it's it really shows when I was a kid a polo shirt mean meant you're out of the community today means okay you're in the community you're dressing a little bit different okay >> right >> so I think would Exactly. >> So that's um so it's meant to help people find their place within the community, >> right? >> And sometimes they struggle with real things and they think the answer is on the outside, >> right? >> And the truth is what cannot be addressed within the community. The community has so much going for it like resources, organizations, support like >> much more than what the outside world can can offer. Right? And the second one is for people who do leave or people who've left years ago. I think there's not enough that's done to help facilitate not necessarily the return but also to facilitate a good relationship with their family and some cooperation. I think one of the biggest problems is and again this is something that the >> footsteps ecosystem or universe teaches you is that you should just be selfish. You should be about yourself. Just focus on yourself. You've left a whole family behind. You may have left a spouse. You may have left kids behind, but you got to focus on yourself first. And that's not a real way to live. Like we have to be more considerate. So I think yes, the religious family should be more considerate for to the person who made a decision to leave even if we don't agree with it. But also vice versa, the OTD person has to have that talk. Someone has to have that talk with them that this is a two-way street. It's not like you don't live in a vacuum. Yeah, >> there are people who are being impacted by your choices. Let's at least have some conversation about how we mitigate it and how we keep some stability for everyone. >> Yeah. Beautiful. Because I guess some people are just very rebellious. They're like, "Let me leave everything." But at the same time, because some one person heard you, I'll never forget this. I had um one of my uh the conversation almost 20 years ago that I overheard that's getting arrived. one of my uncles I was speaking to another uncle and he was like he was saying to him that you know because you were thrown out of yeshiva don't be upset at the entire community find out which person it was and in which case he knew and just be upset at him >> right >> it gave me a lesson for life >> wow >> like and I personally in my story I did the same I was also thrown out of yeshiva katana yes I do I was thrown out of a of a place literally but who threw me out >> right >> the same people who two years later called to apologize >> you know what I'm saying so why be upset at the place >> right >> rather so I let go of a lot of resentment >> towards towards anybody yes maybe things could have been different for me maybe I would have could have had a better education maybe certain things are still wrong >> but to resent the hate is the opposite let me speak my truth my love I I would also I would I would say that I would almost argue that if you would have started your journey 15 20 years ago >> and you would have just let's say opened a podcast and spoken about the positivity of education or or what you think should be done >> people would have been able to listen and make that choice >> and that's something that I try >> that's exactly what I'm saying >> you asked me before like what are some of the harms that came out of it it's like >> yeah going to the government going to the courts going law enforcement whatever law authorities was not um >> um what's so something that I'm just curious about that I forgot the rap >> but hold on actually I'm sorry I don't want to lose I don't want to forget this the point the point that you made I think is very powerful >> is that if you think like you know how anti-semitism works it's like you know people you know when they have a problem they blame the Jews right it's like a thing >> there are these funny videos about you know someone stubs their toe it's the Jews >> I think for many people who are who are like leaving the community it's a bit of a similar thing towards the karedi community >> um where it's like any problem is like ah it's because of the community >> when you start looking at other communities to the extent that they even exist suddenly you're like like not really like you know I remember like you know thinking that there's like so much abuse in the community and it's like okay fine I joined the secular world I've seen it all like I've seen it all um >> you know go to the clubs you know the the amount of um you know abuse or harassment or whatever that that happens in the secular world on a daily basis like just like a lash >> so it's like >> it's very easy and I think this is a problem that not only is true for OTD people I think a lot of people who are not fully fitting into into the community they start buying into the narrative even while being in the community that the community is oppressive and that it's bad and it's sort of like their bad luck that they're stuck. >> And I think that's such a bad >> attitude that a lot of people have, right? >> And they need to get like a wakeup call. And that's part of what I was hoping to do is like, no, no, no. This you're not here because you're stuck. You're actually lucky. Wow. >> I know what's going on out there. And you live in a community that is actually like really fantastic. People are so jealous of it. Like, stop feeling bad for yourself. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. Beautiful. Beautifully said. I have a lot of respect for you and I think it's beautiful your journey. I also feel that it's genuine. I think it's real and genuine. Um just one question to go back to before and you said that you mentioned in the article that Yafed is still open and I'm actually curious. So what happened to that? You started organization now it's still open. What does it still do or or if you can? >> Yeah. when I left when I left Yafed first of all I was sort of like beginning to >> see the problems with Yafed and and with my whole approach >> but I wasn't where I am right now it was just beginning to percolate >> and um so I was like look I want out I need to go >> right >> um in fact when I left Yafrid I didn't fully leave the troublemaking I started which was a news outlet kind of like designed also to you know expose problems in the So you could see it wasn't like a full >> I knew that the whole Yafhat strategy wasn't right and I knew that there were certain things that >> in the secular world that are contradicting with my mission and all that but the point is um when I left the the organization had a board of directors and still has and they went on a search and they hired someone to replace me. So the organization continued to exist. >> And what are they doing? Are they still active? Are they still causing damage? it still it still exists. They're still active. They're still filing lawsuits and things like that. Um and uh >> but you know now how impactful it is or not which I guess it's not. >> You know what's interesting when you have pe there are people who >> they don't have much better to do. There's like a whole narrative they tell themselves about how >> they're playing the long game, right? It's going to work. It's any day now. any day now that new law, the new >> the new court ruling that happens. Yeah. >> And you know what's missing from this whole strategy is >> you're missing the people from within. Like >> didn't want to use this example. If people wanted change, there would be people pushing for change. And if if you can't prove if you can barely pull together three activists at a press conference, um you know, that tells you that there's no big calling, >> you know, clamoring for change from in the community because again, most people in the community recognize that their kids' education is pure and it is good. They can also recognize that it should probably be better when it comes to secular education but not that way. >> Like let us work on it. Let us work on it. >> So my point is I don't think Yafed is going to go anywhere. I don't think it's going to succeed. Even if they have court wins, even if they have law wins, even if >> the change has to if there was a change, it's coming from noticing people inside, not from the outside screaming and yelling. >> Exactly. And now it has even less representation than it did during my time, you know. Um during my time I myself was a yeshiva graduate and some more people were >> directly impacted by the system. Now and by the way I'm not the only one who from Yafed who opened you know his eyes >> like there was like another >> like activist that I had who was like a strong >> um vocal one helpful one who also in in the last year or so we actually connected after he saw my public interviews about it. He's like oh my god I've been I've been feeling the same way. So, I don't see it going anywhere. I feel like it's a waste of everyone's time. >> Guys, if you enjoyed this episode, I want to let you in on a little secret. From every episode, we have bonus footage from before the episode from after the episode that we still sit with the guest and we record. And I release this as bonus footage to the people that support the podcast for $9.99 a month. You have bonus footage from every episode recorded over the last year, plus sometimes early access to an episode or episodes that were only released to the membership, as well as vlogs behind the scenes of how we build the studio or any extra content that I feel can be enjoyable for people to watch. You will find that on the membership on YouTube. Please subscribe, join the membership. It means the world to me and helps us continue with the program and all the costs of the program. Thank you. Yeah. And in the same time and I tell this to every person who messages me about maybe with some kind of resentment towards the community. I say that the community is moving forward in so many ways. The fact that this happens, the fact that this can happen, we can have a conversation and people will just listen to it and be open. Everybody will they'll have an opinion, right? Yeah. I'm I'm I'm excited to see the comments on YouTube. Somebody's going to say, "Oh, he's whatever." Somebody's going to say Ellie is crazy for bringing up some. I mean, again, you know, mostly it's positive, by the way. I don't know why I feel like I'm trying to attract stuff here, but I'm saying the fact that it's even a conversation that we can have and we're open-minded enough to say, "Hold on. At the end of the day, you are one of ours." This this is what this article did. It said, "You're one of ours. We don't care where you were, what you did, as bad as you were." This is this is humongous. This is a reason that I would buy this magazine every single week. No, like literally. >> Wow. >> I really respect them for this because you know why? Because this is who we are. Mhm. >> Um I want >> It's funny that you that you say it though because um having come full circle and I now understand things like I'll give you an example like now I suddenly have an appreciation for why the community leaders banned the internet, banned television when it came out. >> Yeah. >> And it goes back to this idea that I said before that I don't want anyone else to influence my kid. >> Yep. It's me, my wife, my immediate family, and the school that I send him to for eight hours a day. >> The same way I don't want to put him like, you know, same way I don't want to put him in front of TV. I don't want him to sit in front of a computer, you know. Um, and the same thing I don't want some other outsider to come and tell >> his school how he has to educate him. >> So, it's funny, a similar thing is happening is that the community is opening up a lot to other influencers. Like, it used to be very top down the rabbis, >> right? and you see it as a positive because you're one of them. You're one of those influencers that are now accepted. And I I heard your previous conversation. You had a whole topic about whether you are on par with the rabbis. Yeah. >> But the truth is the truth is as much as I'm happy for you and and your influence, >> there's something sad about the fact that the community leaders are losing their grip because what's going to happen is that that rules are are starting to be bendable. depends which rabbi by the way. >> Okay. Yeah. >> My personal rabbi was here on this show and that's why he's my rabbi. >> Can I ask you for his name? >> Yeah. Rabbi Shalaban. >> Oh yeah. Okay. Nice. Nice. >> He's my rabbi. He's my He's my dasto. Any shalah that I have anything any Yeah. >> He is my rabbi and I in my opinion is because he gets it >> right. >> Um but but again in my opinion all the rabbis get it. And that's why you had a visit in the White House and they all went because hi we're here we're at the table and I respect them tremendously for it. You know what I'm saying? >> So I'm the change that's happening >> is tremendous because as they say technology is changing 2027 already and whatever things are changing so fast. So are we. We're adopting. We're I I often say this and and I feel like I'm attracting this specifically is that the place where the community is is just beautiful. It's so accepting, so loving, so >> But the point I'm trying to tell you, the >> the point I'm trying to say is that I'm afraid where it's going from here. Because the the thing I used to be told is like the community is changing. They're only just a few years. They're always just a few years behind the secular world. >> Yeah. >> Having now discovered what I how I feel about the secular world, I dread to think if the community is only 10, 15 years be behind the secular world, does that mean in 15 years we're going to look like them? Okay, that's not good. >> So again, so they can they can be making sometimes mistakes or they can they could be somewhat behind. Um the whole internet saga was there were rights and wrongs some that can be admitted to and some that not you understand you take a community actually it's surprising because you come you say you come from bells >> bells out of all the profile that I have and maybe people have different information but from what I've experienced personally >> growing up on my school there was a bell I saw a lot of bells when they had They would watch the wedding on video to me. That's very open-minded. Bells was one of the first where you would see them and I remember passing the sh theum have smartphones and I was like but it turned out that their was one of the first to say you can have a smartphone but you have to have a filter. Not you don't shouldn't have a smartphone or don't use internet have a filter. Again I'm not specific with the things. I don't know >> everything, but I I do know that they have I know that Belarba has a lot of schools in Israel for every style and level that you are at. So I feel like Bell's happens to be I think is relatively to other very open-minded. But I hear this about as well that they're becoming I hear this about Smir how in tune they are to mental health. For a while I used to preach on my status when I went through my own mental health journey and I was just very anxious and depressed. I was like what are we doing for mental health? And I had this therapist that was following me and he you know a veryish guy living in a veryish community and he said here are pictures from a mental health AIA with 150 and this is ongoing and I said >> you're right I'm taking my story and projecting it but it's not true. There is major things that are that are happening which is very very positive in the community. >> Again, I think you're you're not fully hearing me. What where I'm going with this is I think that they're that they're going too far. In other words, even when it comes to mental health, it deserves its own episode. But I think there's too much mental health talk going on in the community. Everything is now about trauma. Everything is about boundaries. Everything is about safe spaces and things like that. And frankly, I think it's it's leading to a lot of problems in the community, including people going OTD, including divorces, um, which is apparently skyrocketing, at least compared to what it was 10 years ago. Um, that's my theory. Um, >> I don't know if it's skyrocketing or not. Um, and it's also >> it goes from 2% to 4%. That's doubling in a few years. >> In the community, it's skyrocketing. >> Yes. But it's a question if it's a positive or negative. Some people see it as a clear positive. >> Let's have a separate episode to just discuss whether divorce in the community is a positive or a negative. >> No, I I see it as some people are just getting open-minded and they acknowledge that their first marriage was they never chose it, which is why they justify doing wrong in their relationship, not to get into it. So divorce is the the right thing to do if that was the case. If you didn't choose your partner, it's the right thing to do. And that's why there is I don't know Kai and Schlomstein's organization. You know what it's called? Maki the one that gives you information for dating. Um can you can you look it up please? A dating organization. um which is tremendous like huge in helping prevent these kind of things because when we have a relationship and I was discussing this with a friend today where one to another where they're unfaithful which is the cleanest version to call this right why does that happen because I never chose you I never chose you so why should I be faithful to to you what am I protecting that's his organization there is one that uh teaches uh dating just basic dating courses and how parents should make information. But why should I be faithful to you if I never chose you? >> So that's besides the religious reason to be faithful. >> But I'm going to also say to what you keep on saying that it's it is happening internally. It's not somebody coming out a reba or a dino or a roof saying that oh we should start now the minimum dating should be five dates. You should you should yes go to hotel lobby. It's just naturally happening like this. Yeah. you speak to the most from person they'll tell you oh yeah we we had a bash show but it was not in our parents house where it's super limited and somebody's listening to the conversation >> right >> so things are happening from within which I'm very happy and grateful and proud of >> right I think some of it is good some of it is good comes to divorce um that's really my wife's expertise >> um >> what does she do is she like a therapist >> she got a PhD in sociology and and her main study was divorce >> amongst OTD and kared choose. Um, but generally speaking, you know, you talk about like not choosing, you know, so so what's the excuse that the the secular world has for having a 50% divorce rate if they are choosing >> that they don't have a community that they don't have a reason or a mission to live? That's my opinion. >> Okay? >> Or that they have too much education. >> Okay? >> No. Meaning so you see >> I got married to my wife and yes we are very different but I I kept on telling her and her parents and my parents our goal is one let's serve God let's build a Jewish family right those are so much bigger than the average daytoday need or ask or want. >> That's what I thought all the time. >> So you're saying in the secular world they don't have that and that's why the divorce rate is high. >> That's my opinion. What I'm trying to say what I'm trying to say is that >> having a choice doesn't didn't somehow doesn't reduce the divorce rate. Somehow >> we see a much higher divorce rate. My point to you is that in reality um the choice thing you know is is a as they say a red herring >> and in most cases people could make it work. There's a lot of ego involved. And again nowadays when people give you language to use to describe everything as abusive and describe everything as as you know you know a problem with boundaries or whatever it's there's just more ways to make a case for getting divorced. That's my opinion. >> Um you know and by the way >> um arranged marriages which we have is is catching on in other places. People are tired >> of the secular dating scene. They want to be arranged. They want to be like, you know, >> I call my arrangement uh my marriage arranged. >> It was pretty much arranged as arranged as it can get. In the same time, yes, we did also meet by ourselves and we decided when to go out by ourselves with the guidance of the arrangement. >> I see. So >> who arranged it? I'm so confused. >> The my Yeah. >> So my I met my wife through Instagram. >> Oh. >> So yeah. So who's the arranger here? Instagram. >> So no, we arranged it. >> Okay. >> But I'm saying it was arranged in the sense that it it fully had the guidance and blessing of our parents. >> Oh, okay. >> So that's how I see it. Arranged marriage. We don't have to go away completely. I'm not I I never told anybody to not uh uh date or bash or whatever or to find their match on their own, >> right? But what I do tell people is now that you do have a mind of your own, make sure you stand for your boundaries within the community guidelines. And I think this is what what everybody figured out. Um, and I also urge people to be proud with what they're doing >> because so many times I feel like too many times people grow up with this idea that they have to belong or fit into a box. which basically by by the way sums up the conversation that I had on our last episode at Momo that did I think by now maybe 40,000 views over 500 comments which that was the main friction in the conversation was that I think I was saying be who you are and own it >> you don't have to be in ignorance is bliss you don't have to be in a box own who you are own who you are because I feel like both me and him we are on on same levels I felt like I own who I I am and he is somewhat saying that I can't own who I am because I am somewhat different than the community while the community is still great. It's it's one thing and same thing I told him with the modern orthodox it's the same. We're all we're all Jews. We're all good for what we choose to do. >> The reason I say that is because growing up there's there's this big thing of we are the one, we are the chosen one. We are we are the ones kind of going to Ganiden and we hold the world and this this is this is only one way. Anything other than this way is not so good. >> The issue with that fine you know okay let's say that's fine the issue with that is it puts tremendous pressure on the individual on that kid on that bid. Yeah. On that grown-up hold on so if I do something a little bit out of the box then I'm then I'm not good enough. I'm not holding the world anymore. that I'm that I'm so you're telling me that the modern orthodox person who we both know then in theory can be a lot more religious than him he is and I'm so then now you're choosing if you are doing something you are let's say sin now you have to do it hidden you have to hide you have to do it nobody should see so from the outside you're going to be wanting on the inside another thing I I don't like that I want to teach people you be who you are. Keep all the mitzvah. Keep all the and all. I get it. But be proud of yourself, >> right? >> Be you be an advocate for yourself. Be >> I think you real yourself. >> I think one of the things and I know this is not what we discussed before. We're just moving along topics a little bit. Yeah. I think one of the things and and now I'm no longer an activist and I'm not dictating I'm not telling people how to run their communities but I I do think now having this benefit of the hindsight and having gone through different communities what I think is so strange is that the community can can be so wonderful and at the same time many people don't feel like it's a wonderful community like they feel like you know they don't feel good about themselves they don't feel like they have choice they feel like even like kind of like what you were saying there's a bit of a contradiction because the leaders have to talk about the toy and the mitzvah and all of that stuff because that's ultimately at the root of of who we are as a people, right? Our values and their entire community can't exist if we don't have this book that is holding it together. This is the guide book and that's why we all share this experience. The problem is that I think the ham could benefit from hearing in addition to the book that you know that we all share happens to be that we also have a good life. happens to be that you know I heard you mention in the previous podcast about like you know waking up in the morning and saying an saying there are other nice phyis that that that are said that I don't think enough people realize that the secular world is dying to have something like that they they they look they go to like yoga yoga places and and other places where they do affirmations you say over there you know like this this yahirut or whatever about like having good and good, you know. Yeah, I remember. I forgot the words now. It's like slipped my mind, >> you know, even just saying these words, especially if you pay even a little bit attention to it, it like it it is in your brain, right? And if you say it every day and if you pay attention to it every day, it has such a positive impact on your life. You know, saying positive words has a positive impact of your life just in general. So when you say these things, you know, again, whether it is because Hashem is there and you're speaking to him, or it's just call it affirmations, call it, you know, positive vibes. My point is the same is true with everything. I was talking in the magazine about like certain things that we think of as limitations. >> I have to go to shul. >> Yes. But that is the only reason you have the tight-knit community that you have is because everyone has to go. And you know what happens when you don't have to go to shul? you're left with eight people, four on Zoom. >> Yeah. >> Like like you know, just just look at the big picture. Look at the long run. >> To have like a a a you know, um a thriving community, it takes sacrifice, right? >> And the one thing that's missing from all the other types of communities that are trying to form and that have formed and why they fizzle out is because >> there's no sacrifice. Right now I'm into this, right? >> And if I am no longer into it, I'm gone. And everyone else feels the same. So eventually it fizzles out, >> right? >> Here you have a community that's in one form or another existed for thousands and thousands of years. >> Yeah. >> And we have the the the proof >> to back it up, right? And how is it is precisely because it has some some commitment, some sacrifice, some of which are are weird, you know, like doing kum on on yam kiper. I don't feel so comfortable doing it like getting down on my all fours and all >> but you do it and you know everyone else in the shul is doing it and you are one >> 100% with that community. I call myself in many senses and I and I'll say this because I think people can learn from it. I call myself a traditional. Sometimes people ask me what are you say I'm a traditional besides being aid and I and I love who I am, my identity and my community. I also call myself a traditional because sometimes we don't feel meaning towards a sikip. >> But what about the tradition? >> My father, my mother, my blood, >> right? >> What did they do on y? They dipped honey and apple for a sweet new year. So maybe you can't connect it. Maybe somebody hurt you. Maybe you have resentment. But the tradition shabas maybe you don't want to keep it but there is a tradition part in it. So please yes keep it. That's that's that's how I see it. And I I beg people find meaning in yourself. I daven every day the full doing. Why? >> It's gratitude to my creator. Wherever however wherever he is in which form right whatever I I want to thank for the person that I am. So what I want to say about community to people is either find within your community what works for you meaning to say find the person that resonates with you the person that welcomes you and a lot of people are very connected to the rabbi son why because he's easier to access sometimes more relatable sometimes more knowledgeable sometimes younger so connect with rabbis son >> meet that person I made for myself I have a policy my ru or monik has to be somebody that will give me a hug So my Reb is >> Nichols. I'm a proud who said also that's where I grew up. But my Reb is Nicholsburg >> because he he'll take off his becker to put it on to a kid that will smile because he has the reb but he hugs and kisses every person. >> Where does he live? >> Nichlsburg and Bar Park but he has the up upstate woodburn shul you ever heard shieldbu isaban because he is relatable you know I can I can reach him it's relatable. I respect him. He is knowledgeable, you know, down to earth, up to-date, all those things. My shul, my local shoo where I davin is a community of a hundred people that are nice and kind. You walk in, everybody will greet you with and by the they're not even by the way. It's a mix of all kind of people. Um, a very firm community, by the way, but but welcoming and nice. And again, I think most people are like that. But my point is choose a community that works for you. One more thing I wanted to say is that I I said choose a community that works for you or even within a community that you are in make it work for you because I think we both acknowledge how important community is. Another thing he said he mentioned this sign I had one of my uncles once told me that the answer to all the anxieties that we have in life is that sign. Why? Because you're worried you might have this that something might happen. The answer to that all is Hashem. I ask you from all those different things, right? All the we don't know. Every person has a day it can be full with challenges. >> In order to live without anxiety or control it at least the minimum that we do is we ask God protect me from all those scary things. >> Right? After I say that, I can say, "Okay, I already asked God. Now I can somewhat feel safe and secure. I did mine." >> Yeah, that's nice. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> So, >> exactly. >> I I'm just the whole conversation. And I'm thinking the the responsibility of of me sitting in this chair and having such a big powerful impact on people. It's it's I look at it as scary. I I don't take it for granted. I really >> I really really ask and pray and and kind of take it in every time and say to myself, "Wow, like okay, so if tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people are listening, the responsibility is is is humongous." And and when you talk about leadership and whatever, I I I sometimes question >> where are the leaders? Why why I'm waiting to hear from you. I'm the leader. like maybe I have to work on my confidence but why why am I a leader and a voice and a person helping so many people. >> I think everyone has >> where are the others? >> I think everyone has their own role. >> There are the people who are in charge of preserving what Jew what being Jewish or being in this case being aid Jew means. Um, so they're more focused on the the the books, the davening, the the the yum, the rules, the whatever, things like that. And then there are people who are more focused on some of the social issues of our time. And that could be you, you know, >> but I wanted to actually discuss something. >> A valid point. Then I think about it. Thank you. >> Oh, I wanted to discuss something because I think before this we were discussing about like the question of like modern orthodox versusum. >> Yeah. is you've already discussed that topic and we could discuss it but but I want to focus on something else. Do you recommend to people who are struggling in the community do you recommend them to become an Orthodox sort of as a way of staying from but not feeling uh suffocated? >> Short answer, no. >> Long answer. Um, the long answer is that we are we are Jewish and there's different levels and versions of it and as long as we can respect every version of it, you'll be able to respect every version of you. In other words, the community or the or the sect or the group is not what makes you. It's what you make of the community. Mhm. >> That's how I see it. So when people ask me how can you compare that's that's where this all started. I had it was a on a podcast of somebody that is Orthodox and in that community >> and I said that I feel like they're very similar in certain things. The reason I feel that it's similar is because I see us all as one and I don't see the difference. Maybe you're a little bit more observant, you're a little bit less observant. At the end of the day, we're all Jewish people with the same mission and goal. >> I can see why people have a problem with that because it's a little bit too too >> I don't see it as fitting in. >> Flying in the sky. Oh, we're all the same. We're all equal. I think some people want to talk. There are obviously differences. And this is where I'll get in. By the way, the reason I brought it up is because earlier you were saying that, you know, you should find your shul, you should find your your rabbi. And and I think that's crucial because I agree with that point. I think that people in the community who are having a hard time right now especially in today'sish community there is enough variation within the community that you could find your place right like on the one extreme you have like and on the other hand you have whatever I don't know square I don't know but my point is there's so much variability in between you could definitely find your happiness but I personally have advised people not to become become modern orthodox. I say stay where you are but within there. Find a range >> that works for you. But but hold on. But hold on. But but but but according to you all the same. I want to be I'll explain an orthodox. >> There's no becoming. There's no becoming. That's what I'm trying. And again, by the way, maybe >> integrate, acclimate, assimilate. >> If I walk into their sh I'm becoming mythodox. >> Can you move? my kid went to their school and I still liveish. >> Well, that's >> am I becoming man orthodox? >> The example I gave in this magazine, >> okay, >> is I was once Shabas at home. >> Mhm. >> I was just finishing my Shabas meal, Shabas day, and I hear knocking on the door and um I go open the door um and before me are three. This is in Tene. >> Okay. >> And I'm like, whoa. And then my eye shifts and I recognize one of them as my neighbor. He's a labid. The two other areat or at least they look like it. And I'm like, >> what is going on here? And he tells me that they are checking out Tene because they're thinking of becoming modern Orthodox. They're not fitting in. They're not fitting into the community. They're thinking of becoming modern Orthodox. So there's an organization that helps people who don't fit into the Kasich community. Maybe they could become modern orthodox so so that they don't end up completely OTD, which I think is as a last resort. Yes, that's a great idea. Um, it's not what my project is trying to do, but that's different. But, so he's like, "Look, I have to run, but they wanted to speak to you because your name came up at the Shabas meal." And I said, "Hey, he's my neighbor." So, he brought them over. >> So, we spoke and for the next like hour or two, we were sitting there and talking and I heard them. One of them his English was so broken. Um the other one was a little bit better. But for that reason alone, just being very pragmatic, I had to tell him like just be realistic. Can you fit into this community? You can. There are immigrants. There are people from Russia. There are people from Ukraine. Ukraine. >> Yes. A lot of Israelis. Although the Israelis at least find themselves, you know. In fact, sometimes that I'm surrounded by the Israelis, I feel left out because they're like they go into Hebrew, whatever. >> Yeah. >> But the point is you can, but it'll be very tough. And that's just the beginning. The language barrier is just one. It's also culture. They grew up with sports. They grew up with secular bands. Fish, it's like apparently PH is like a big popular band in the modern Orthodox community. It's a secular band, but you know, they're very into their secular music. Um they they tend to have professional degrees, you know. Yeah. >> Now, you might be a nice successful entrepreneur, Husid, right? >> But again, it just creates this little this little barrier. And my point is that that we we have to be honest about it that your best community is the community that you grew up in, >> right? >> That is the place that is, you know, your brain as you grow up, >> right? >> Gets wired accordingly according to the community that you're in. It's the community that has the most they owe you the most, right? The most um I don't know how to describe the word owe you is is wrong, but I'm saying like they have the strongest commitment to you for good or for bad, >> right? And that's your best place. Now that doesn't mean that you know if you went to the most extreme sat bismish growing up that that's where you have to be. Thankfully in the current community that exists there's so much variation that you could go two degrees away from the that and you can have a chilled you know davining you can have people who are more relaxed and so forth. Um, so again I don't come come at it from a very like religious you know perspective. It's more sort of like what is best for you. But I'm just saying like when you were talking about like the difference between and modern orthodox in a way I totally get you like we we don't take ourselves very seriously both and modern orthodox um we understand that the religion is something that brings us together. We enjoy a good kadesh. Um I recently davened like men at a at a litfish. It was in a Bangala colony. It was a litfish medish and I was actually traumatized a little bit because that was >> that was harsh. It was like they were so serious over there, you know. I was like, >> "Wow, it's not the modern Orthodox and it's not the this is like serious business." >> So immediately something about what you said made a lot of sense, resonated with me. But I just wanted to also clarify that there are some very objective clear things in which the and the modern Orthodox are so different. I don't want any I don't want anyid coming away with the impression that oh it's easy I could become modern orthodox if I don't fit in. You know >> my point with putting them so close together is so that you don't hop over from either one to the other. >> It's it's all the same. It's all we're all Jewish. a little bit more religious, a little bit less religious. And again, I respect and I love >> Hold on. In that sense, can't you say it about every single uh sh of Jews? >> Yeah. >> Okay, great. >> But I I use them as a reference because that's a place where I got familiar up close and personal. Maybe if I were to marry my wife was Lvish and I would be a lot in Lvish communities. Maybe I would stand up here and say, "Hey, Lvish, this is more similar than I thought." Listen, in the last decade or two, the litfish have practically merged with the kasid in some ways. Um, they they have a certain var kite. They seek out they seek out they enjoy the the food, whatever. >> But yeah, they're still more by the book >> and that's beautiful. That's that helps and enables people to to jump between different things. you know the lidish that wants to become more warm is becoming and it doesn't usually go vice versa but uh you know but but I'm saying there is it it it does enable people to do different things. >> Yeah. >> Um again I just to me I see it as as as one and as beautiful and as open-minded. That that's my point. I feel like growing up and there's no talk about modern Orthodox because we're so afraid that somebody's going to go to that community. Why why dismiss them? Why ignore them? Why why make it that way? Give them the respect that they deserve so that your individual that you're raising can have the respect for themselves in whatever version they are. That's that's my summing up the whole man orthodox bid. >> I recently heard something that scared me about the modern Orthodox. I think you tried to bring it up at the beginning, which was that um someone who studied it that close to 50% of modern Orthodox people essentially leave. It's hard to call them go OTD because it's not the same, >> but apparently they leave. I guess you were saying that they were shrinking. Maybe that's what you were referring to. >> I was surprised to hear it because when we were doing that whole spreadsheet and deciding where we're sending our kids, >> a big part of it was like what is a community that's growing, not shrinking. >> Yeah. >> And obviously there's a but I couldn't put my family in there suddenly. >> Okay. >> But and then on the other hand, there was the conservative reform that was >> for sure shrinking. Okay. And we thought the modern Orthodox community was thriving and growing. And I still think it is. So I was >> I don't know about growing. >> I was surprised to see that that study that suggests that so much so much um so many people are leaving. But >> it's not it's not leaving. It's it's it's adapting. It's moving on. It's changing. And I'll tell you when I say leaving what I refer to exactly and this is what I heard from my from a friend ours of that is in the Orthodox community. Um and she was saying that a lot of them are either just not choosing a religious life so much or the others are choosing a religious/ Yeshivish kind of life what they call today as modern Orthodox Mahm. >> Yeah. They're basically this they're moving to to either direction. >> Yes. So that's that's where they are. And so I don't see myself ever being a modern Orthodox. I don't think it's I don't think it's a it's a community. Let's just say it's not a community. It's not doesn't have a leader. It's not uh it's it's a style of of living. It's being orthodox a tat of modern. That's that's how I see it. And that's why I joke around with the whole tooth because it's it's how many are are modern as well. So most of most of us probably are choosing some version of modern. Maybe it's just your smartphone in your pocket, right? Or it's more openly and you you you don't want to wear the pious. You're you're also modern. So you so then you're a modern Orthodox. Oh, so it's such a big difference. Oh, no. But the word triggers you. Why? Because they didn't tell you about modern orthodox. >> The difference is modern orthodox. >> Modern Orthodox has a very strict very serious um um how do I say it? Like the the underpinning of it is the foundational value is Torah um tora. >> Correct. which means learning Torah and worldly knowledge. >> So they have this guide, you know, these these guides. Um they do have institutions, they do have leaders. I beg to differ with you. They have leaders. They have institutions. Just because No, they're not a lot. Oh, you're saying they had leaders. >> No, I think they still have. They still have. >> Who? >> I myself can't name them. You know, I go to my show. >> No, just because you and I don't know. >> In other communities, there's not. They have a rabbi that they appoint from the yeshivas. whatever there's no leader has the same thing. So I started >> talking about whatever like >> they had they had Rabbi Rabbi um Rabbi Shapiro maybe um they had um um I had the names I mentioned it in one of the podcasts. They had rabbis that helped find fi um um that that helped find the movement of what modern orthodox stands for that that they supported this idea of you can be very religious and firm and orthodox while also getting an education. So they they had people for that and they said that okay like and again certain things that they stood for were more modern but right now there's no leader over there. There is no this and that's one of the reasons why people are going Mahm. Where are the people that are going Mahm to one of the things they're looking for is for a local bismeish a local shul again I am in five towns every other week for Shabas. >> So I see what's happening over there the people are going from the gigantic shul that you mentioned and they're going to a local with a rabbi. >> So it it is evolving. >> Are they going for the rabbi or are they going for the um atmosphere? Maybe both. But the point is that modern Orthodox as a whole, it's not like this is a community we can join. Here's your form. Fill it out. No, it's we all have a modern Orthodox in ourselves. >> And and the community also doesn't have a form that you have to fill out to join you. You >> you know, >> again, when you join, when you becomeish, the first question somebody's going to ask you, oh yeah, which are you? >> So, >> what should I ask you? Which modern Orthodox are you? >> Where do you live? Yes. Modern Orthodox is more geographic. >> Okay. Oh, fine. So, it's either T-neck or it's five towns. That's where it ends. >> More than that, but uh >> where what am I missing? >> There's Fair Lawn. There's Upper West Side. There's um >> yeah, there's Staten Island. Um >> you can choose to live athodox life, but it's not a community. >> It's not one. Is there a WhatsApp group for modern Orthodox? Where's where is the basis of the community? >> What about litfac? What do you mean? >> Okay, but if I but if someone says >> this is my if someone says I'm a litfac orthodox have a when I ask you give me one man orthodox bismetrish. You have something for me? >> I happen to know all of them in >> I also know them but I'm asking you is there a bismed that this is Monroe has a bismetric what's the man orthodox? If I want to become orthodox tomorrow where am I walking into? Reinat, there's IAB, there's Beth Aaron, there's Arz, there's Jewish center. >> What's the bismetrish? There is >> there's nois in in theish community either. What are you talking about? >> Of course there is. What do you mean in Barak? It's Bab and in in Monro it's it's the biggest which Bab >> both. >> Oh, so now it's both. >> Yeah. My point is every has every has multiple but I don't think that's what you go by. I think you're creating arbitrary differences the ones that you're used to. You happen to be used to like the name of the is I think to >> I just ask you where's the community? You didn't answer me. >> No, I g Well, we know at least these two places I gave you. >> That's the community. >> Who cares? It's big. >> So bet is the community. That's the >> Oh, no. I'm saying team I I told you it's >> text is not a community. >> You can't join it. You can't you can't unjoin it. >> Why not? Of course. >> What are you joining? >> You're joining the community just like just like joining a kas community. You could join the modern Orthodox. I joined it. I joined it. I live there and we're part of a community. you know, does it doesn't look the same way that you're thinking of as a community, but it is still a community and it's an in-person community, which by the way, to contrast it with what's happening in the rest of the world where people actually don't have >> there is a shoo and a thing. >> There's a sh there's there's schools that we we not everyone who goes >> that calls itself uh is there a school that calls itself school of modern Orthodox kids? >> No. But is there a yeshiva they call itself yeshiva for >> yeshiva salvic or whatever to sum up the conversation of the man orthodoxidum because people find it fascinating. I just want to say this before I got married I spoke to a friend of mine older persona respected guy somebody I respect um he does in healing and therapy just very nice person and um he told me to this conversation of man orthodox because I asked she's man or how's that going to work he told me something that struck struck accord and I took it on as a somewhat mission in life that you're assuming or people are assuming now I'm going away from what he said but that oh I'm becoming monthodox or people can become I look at it as the opposite in in his words he said you now have a chance to take a modern orthodox family or could have been modern orthodox family and bring them into something that is more warm. And that's how I see my comparison to man Orthodox is we're not bringing closer to man Orthodox. If there's something valuable there for you, then keep it. But we're bringing modern Orthodox closer to its values, its beauty, its culture, its warmth that we have. And I think that is very powerful. >> How does your wife feel about that? She loves it. >> So, she's fine with you saying that her commun her her upbringing was without a community. >> That's one of the things that I'm trying to explain to the world and to you is that they acknowledge it. They're they're not holding on to an identity. Oh, we are modern Orthodox. No, they they they just feel like they're modern. They also speak Yiddish. They're highish people. They're gakahish people. And yes, they grew up and are more modern. But you introduce warmth, we don't care. When I go to B shalom with a thousand people that dav there, they never look at me twice. Oh, he's the pious, he's the they don't just the opposite. Welcome. You are welcome here. So they have the yearning towards towards more towards more warm or whatever word it is. And I think that that's beautiful. right here. I think, you know, if I spoke to my rabbi of my sh um if I sat down with him, he will list to me exactly what the modern Orthodox community stands for. You asked before about their rabbis. Every single one of their influential rabbis from founder down. Um >> we both know the monorlex rabbis are paid actors. It's why are we really going down there? >> Oh my god. You making me say this on air? Like why are they more paid? I respect them. They're amazing. But >> why are they more paid actors? >> Because that's how they make it. It's a commercial thing. It's not like necessarily either chosen by the community or or yeas or whatever. >> They're it's hey for the next five years you're the rabbi here. It's >> that's a good thing or a bad thing. >> You can look at it as a good thing. I respect it tremendously. But that's not the yearning. That's not the community. And that's not I I don't see it as necessarily a community. I think it's it's a way of living. >> You understand? It's a >> I I know what you're saying. I disagree with it. >> It's like an identity. I see it more as it's not necessarily community. You can't become it or you can't leave it. You >> It's funny that you're suggesting that having like an unappointed rabbi or like an unelected or unhired person somehow that gives it more of a community feel. So again a point that can be a lot of communities let's say in Tom's River there's thousands of them here >> they they chose a reba they didn't hire somebody nobody got hired for the gig >> so how did they choose them >> in in in the modern orthodox >> how did they choose them in what way did they choose them >> because the one person that moved in and was they felt that that's a okay you become rabbi here >> like my rabbi he was appointed by his people >> and you're telling me a salary you're telling me they're not getting a salary not an active salary. Maybe they make money from the community or whatever from running the shoo or maybe they get their house paid off. But no. >> So what's the problem? They aren't a salary. >> What the problem is? >> No problem at all. >> The the So the modern Orthodox, >> you're like telling me my rabbi will tell me what modern Orthodox is. Your rabbi is being paid to to greet you gabas. We both know that >> everyone gets paid for everything. Everyone has to have an incentive. >> No, but there it's officially like that. They they pay the rabbi. The rabbi makes a salary of a few hundred,000 a year. So you don't like that it's official. You're the rabbi. >> You don't like that it's official. The sat each sat is worth a hundred times more than whatever our rabbis are worth. >> What's the difference? >> Why is that better? >> They weren't paid. Nobody paid them. >> But why is that? So you're so traditional tradition. >> I told you your framework of what it means to have a community is is just you're stuck in the kidish world. That's why fine and it's okay. There's no judgment. I just think that you're you're having this inability to the point where you're literally invoking things that are meant to be a negative. The fact that they're unelected, unappointed, unhired, that's sort of a good thing. >> They are elected, just not paid. >> But my point is these things don't make money. That's different. >> These things don't matter. So in our community, they they you know what they do to to to hire rabbis? They vet them. First of all, by the way, they bring on three candidates. >> I know. >> And then they go through a third and they have to give a speech and whatever. >> So, >> sounds to me like uh Okay, listen. Next thing you know, the Martha community is throwing me out. >> Well, you don't live there. You're here in I don't >> Yeah, I'm afraid they'll throw me out just for sitting with you and and hearing this apeis. Anyway, it was nice uh nice sitting down with you and >> I hope >> it could serve as a positive message um to people in the community. >> I hope people get where I come from, my background and my journey. You know, >> I am a community leader and I I'm telling you that you are welcome here. >> Stamp of approval. >> Sounds good. All right. Go ahead. >> Cheers. Thank you guys so much for following. Really appreciate you being here. It means the world to us. Please support our sponsors, the panels group, um the um BS uh Q, um Zers, uh Westwood. Thank you, Shimmy Rubenstein for setting me up the lighting and uh all the and the sound and the mics. Um thank you so much for supporting, guys. We do have a lot of juicy bonus footage for the membership. So, if you join that, I'm going to be sitting on that uploading full episodes to the memberships. It's $9.99 a month. 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