Peretz Eichler interviews Dr Moshe Szyf on new findings in the field of Epigenetics

okay all right we're talking today with Dr mosha Schiff he's a geneticist and molecular biologist at McGill University in Montreal Canada and he has done some very interesting research that might expand the notion of Jewish guilt well I guess we'd have to know first of all what what is Jewish guilt I don't know if a geneticist uh can do um much more than than Websters but what do you mean by Jewish guilt Dr what is Jewish guilt to begin with I really don't know what Jewish guilt is because we as a researcher I'm not interested in Jewish guilt but I'm interested in understanding basic biological uh processes H but um you know there's a long Jewish history and the big question is how does this history impact us uh physiologically how does it impact our health and how does it impact our the way our brains are working so the question is whether when things are done to people are the consequences just for one generation or are they leaving marks behind that can pass on to other Generations you know Jews were exposed to a lot of abuse for the last uh 2,000 years and the question is do we carry those memories of this abuse in our genomes in our genes you're saying that this is not just something of intellectual recall and memory you're saying that it could actually be embedded within our chromosomes that would affect our physical and psychological Behavior today so that a child a young young man or young woman today might might be exhibiting some signs of behavior that very well are genetic because of experiences that previous generations might have had right so we have to differentiate here between genetic and epigenetic genetic means that there was a change in a sequence right so the gene has changed and now The Offspring has a different Gene that was than the one that was common in his ancestors and that Gene gives him a certain Behavior so that's possible as well because the Jews in Europe went through a tremendous selection uh remaining Jewish in Europe was tough and it stands to reason that uh the guys that are our ancestors were selected H for um you know certain traits that allow them to survive the persecution that they were enduring that's one thing but the other thing that I think is more interesting and and and more interesting from a Jewish point of view is that the experiences that we experience can result in a different chemical marking of our genes and these will Define how the genes work even though they don't change the genetic sequence but they change the way the gene is marked and by changing the way the gene is marked you change the way the gene works and we have shown that that process is extremely important uh and at different experiences in life uh can can do that and can then fashion the way uh the animal or the human um is operating and so it might well be that the traumas that we suffered in the past left behind those marks that are passed from generation to generation and it will affect the way our brain works as well as our health what does this all have to do with let's say something which does affect U everybody particularly U younger members of uh of the community you know let's say between 18 and and 26 or 36 people that are forming their their values and modes of behavior what about the concept of let's say freedom and responsibility I mean you had said Dr Schiff that with a deterministic genome we we can't decide what kinds of mutations we're going to pass on but if we experience um something that's important in building a healthy genome it gives us a feeling of some level of control exactly what is that what does that mean exactly right and so the terministic genome gives us actually a sense of freedom and it's interesting that the idea of a deterministic genome came about by Darwin um theories of evolution and eventually genetic theories that essentially said that you know it doesn't make a difference what we do if you have the right Gene you'll be smart you'll be successful and if I have a bad gen you're doomed and um and that gave you a sense of freedom because you don't care what you're doing and nothing will change anyways um but what we're learning today is that that's not completely true yes there is this element you know some of us unfortunately in hurted mutations that will cause disease like breast cancer and others but most of the genome is very responsive to the kind of life we're living and that will Define not only our own genome but the kind of genomes that we're going to pass to Future Generations so the way we treat our children the way we take care of them is not doesn't just have the immediate effects that we see but they will have long-term effects that will affect their life many years down the line and probably affect you know um Generations in the future so that adds a tremendous amount of responsibility for individuals as where as well as for societies uh because we know now how critical the early life is for the developing child both you know his health as well as his mental health intellectual capacity his moral values Etc at the basic biological level not just what we see and feel around and so therefore societies have a tremendous responsibility to make sure that the early life is is is is is done in this in a in in a in a way that will ensure the survival and the success of of the child um and uh we can we even people with with genes that let's say Define them is not as intellectually successful as others with uh good enrichment can become as successfully as successful as those that have you know other genes that make them intellectually more fast and and fast Learners would that would that in turn then make an imprint on the genes that let's say that this young person now going into the the the Avenue of marriage would now pass on to Future Generations in other words what's the gap between the behavioral change of something which has all been imprinted and now reprinting the genome as it were if do I if I have the idea right in other words somebody you said doesn't have in his genes that great intellectual capacity but the person decides I really want to be a good student I want to make it and they do become a great student and very successful in what they're doing now how long does it take for that to become implanted part of the chromosomes that they're going to pass on to their next Generations right so the two ways by which epigenetic information is pass and it's important to emphasize that one way is not through the germ line not through our sperm or eggs but actually through our behaviors because we pass behaviors too to the Future Generations right so the behavior of the mother can affect the way the genes are marked in her children and these children will become mothers and their behavior will now affect the way their genes are Mark in their children so you can pass for generations and we know that from animal studies you know certain behaviors that without having to have a real a germline what we call germline transmission so the parents are affecting the children by their behavior in a way that will change the way the genome works these children will now have their children and they will do the same thing and they can pass from generation to generation these what we call phenotypes or these the the way that people behave and and and and look and this is very important from the Jewish point of view because you know the whole concept of conversion is really an epigenetic concept right H it doesn't make a difference what genome you brought into the conversion once you become Jewish your behavior that you adopt will now have an epigenetic transformation and you become part of the Jewish people and you pass that to the Next Generation through epigenetic ways of course there is also a an other epigenetic way of of transferring or transmitting information which is through the germine through the gametes or sperm and our eggs and and that's much more questionable H but there's more and more data suggesting that not only we H we pass those epigenetic marks through experience we also can pass it through our germ cells and um most of the information comes from animals where there is evidence that experiences could affect the way grandchildren or grand children and Grand grandchildren behave um we don't know in humans you know what's the balance between uh epigenetic information that we transmit through our Behavior versus epigenetic information that we transmit through our behavior and changes The Germ line of our children and then is passed from generation to generation through the germ line most of the evidence suggested that you know events like trauma um aggression um can be passed from generation to generation at least in animals through the germ line other things can only pass through the behavior of the mother or father but once the behavior stops the transmission stops what about this idea Dr Schiff of um tinkering with the environment you know Biogen gentics is very well known for that how does that affect the concept of the epigenetics as this the most important thing genetics relationship to the environment the idea that environment can have dramatic effects on the way our genes are programmed and have long-term effect not just immediate long-term effect so even if we are exposed to an environment for you know a year that might have an effect throughout your life and into the lives of your children and grandchildren genetically of course genetically as well what's that within a year that I don't know if it's a year you know I mean I I'm just giving us an example it could be shorter could be longer um the the idea of epigenetics is that it essentially takes a transient environmental exposure and fixes it right so for example uh when we did experiments on on on the pups of rats that were either licked by their mothers or not this is only one week that the mother takes care of the pups but it will Define their entire life so even though they're now old they behave differently because of the one week of licking and Grooming by their mother and it's similar you know if you have a stressful environment at very short times early in life they can have a huge impact so we don't know if it's a one minute or one year exposure but we know that short exposures can have long-term effects because the genome remembers our exposures so an exposure like to 911 can have effects that probably will go to future Generations as well even though it was what less than a day and you know Dr shift I know your area of expertise as you as we're obviously discovering is genetics and epigenetics but in uh in the realm of where you are in terms of your your Jewish observance have you ever run across across a kazal that in some way substantiates or cerates any of the research that you've been doing no I think the whole concept of epigenetic is very strong in the concept of of defining um um Parenthood or relationship to the Jewish people for example you know issues of um um the mother defining the jewishness of the child uh is is very strongly supported by you know the epigenetic role of the mother in passing uh many many important traits to to to the children and another question is what's the difference between a a surrogate mother or a real mother in passive jewishness right so you know we have now invital fertilization and we have surrogate mothers so let's say you know a a Jewish egg was found in a non-jewish mother or vice versa a non-jewish egg in a Jewish mother what is more important right and this is exactly the question what is more important the genetics you know because it was a Jewish egg so it had Jewish jeans or it's its epigenetic environment which is being harbored by a Jewish mother and so but I think kazal were very sensitive to the idea that that it's not just the sperm but or the genes but it is much more than that that defines jewishness and so I think that's absolutely a sensitivity to epigenetics but also I think the strong emphasis on what we call tinan or the Early Childhood as a critical time another interesting example is you know there's a mitzah H which is to to gather the people to Israel to Jerusalem and and read the Torah to them or missionary Torah and there there's the idea that you have to bring the children and the question is why do you have to bring the children they're not going to learn anything anyways and so that was a profound understanding of how important is to imprint on on children um you know this kind of Moral Moral and and and religious U uh teachings even though they don't really understand it but that experience uh will be with them for for their whole long life and the children's life so I think um you know the these Concepts were very strong the concepts that epigenetics plays a very important role I can give you another example you know um there's a gamar Yoma where after yam kipur you know the kenad comes out of The KES kashim and the whole people are following him and then shamai comes out and all the people leave the kohen Gad and go to shamai and the kohen Gad is UPS is upset he says I'm the grandchild of Aron aen how can you leave me for this one who is a grandchild of of of dear because he was a son of K and um and and so what what what what the coin is is essentially claiming my jeans are much better than his genes and therefore you should have followed me and then um and then you know the story ends which Shai says I prefer somebody who is a descendant of uh of a non-jew who behaves like Aron aen then a descendant of Aron aoan who behaves like somebody else and so the idea is that that uh you know as much as genes are important like a Coen is defined by the genetic lineage um there is the epigenetics which is which is as important or more important we know that as members of uh clel we've always tended to live lives and as evidenced by um by who we are today and even the the nations of the world go understand this and use it as a way of um actually admiration that education family structure and religious values so really to come is no surpris that the values have been passed on do you see that as something as still inherent in the genes of uh of Jewish men and women today that those values are are are entrenched firmly in our genetic system I think they're entrenched in our epigenetic system not in our genetic system what's the difference again between genetics and epigenetics so the genetics is the same sequence right that's past that we can't change this we inherited and many of us many Jews carry jeans that come from different kinds of people but I think what we did in with Jewish Education and Jewish lifestyle and Jewish Community work is create an epigenetic environment that not withstanding where our genes came from you know whether we carry European genes or middle eastern genes or other kind of genes and they all came into this Community family uh Workshop that essentially epigenetically transformed them to to the to the uh to the Jewish um epigenetic environment and um and that's the fundamental difference the epigenetics is dependent on what we do we are doing the genetics is dependent on whatever we inherited whatever randomly happened in the history of our genes and the important thing about epigenetics it is reversible so you know if you stop doing these things that will disappear so there's no guarantee that you know we will if we don't do what we have been doing that we will keep the same kind of characters the characters are a function of continuous rep repetition of that behavior once the behavior changes and we move to a different kind of behavior we can erase those epigenetic marks and come up with new ones so I guess you could say kind of that if uh a person decides to address in a very covic honorable way that will lend them to a certain type of behavior or if they would address in genes if we part in in the pun the genes might very well become part of their they taking it far but you know but you know dress is part of behavior right and it definitely has an impact I don't know how strong the impact is relative to other behaviors H but it definitely is part of the whole behavioral um mure that uh that we have um and that mure which you talk about and I'd like to just and the mil which we Define as environment is something which in essence you're really saying at the very core of this is the environment in which a person is in which they live in which they study can very much impact who they are and who their Generations are going to be absolutely yeah actually this sums up the whole idea of Gene environment interaction all right Dr shiff anything else that you'd like to leave us with or to our uh to our younger generation readers what would you advise them in terms of um just like you give nutrients to your body what type of nutrients should they be feeding their uh their epigenetic um genes so that they take a strong emphasis on um on the children the earlier the better um I think the values that we transmit to our children are critical in their well-being both mentally as well as as physically and uh as Community again we have to emphasize those things any small adversity that we do will have consequences and the good things that we do will have consequences as well and and that requires us to be very careful about both our personal behavor behavior and as Behavior our Behavior as as in family and and as a community you know the stronger the communities we build this these values will be passed on and will fashion the health of our children not just the mental health but also the physical health the physical health is extremely dependent on the on the family structure on the uh completeness of the family on the love that the family has on the you know reduction of adversity the family on avoiding aggression uh all these things have consequences to both our psychological as well as our physical health and they they put a tremendous amount of responsibility although we don't understand really what exactly will give us you know better health or better mental health but we know that you know um if we build environments that are peaceful that are loving that are caring and that they are uh avoiding you know it's diversity and aggression and the lesson that we learn both from biology from other animals and from humans is it probably will be much better than the other way and that gives us tremendous amount of responsibility Dr mosha shiff from Mill University I want to thank you very much for helping us to understand our responsibility in perpetuating the values of authentic Judaism both in Generations past present and future thank you thank you very much sh I just ended the interview I wanted thank you I thought it was gtic I'm looking forward to hearing from you again and um I I think what you're doing is just murck and I love the way that you tied in the the other stuff there's also I think a gamor bay and rubber right was it a B's mother rubber's mother used to take him into the base medish yes who was who was it do you remember I don't remember yeah but I know what you're talking about yes I think RAB yanan as well his mother used to take him behind the bed midash and that's why RAB yanan became raban I think the Mara talks about but maybe about Raa as well and when she was pregnant she would go behind at Mid just to hear that's classic epigenetic ah okay that's fantastic I'm looking uh I'm looking forward to speaking to you again and I hope to get up to Montreal and meet you were you there for the summer are you coming to Lakewood at all h i don't come to Lakewood I come a lot to teake because my my children live there and uh oh so um great when you're in Teck please let me know cuz I'm in lwood and love to come up and see and maybe do a video interview as well I think it happen when up great I come quite often to Teena here you other re my grandchildren so it's a good incentive yeah yeah wonderful okay you should have a lot of you to Shas from all of them you too thank you thanks so much cul