Partnership Minyanim & Women and Torah Reading (Pt II) | Rabbi Anthony Manning | January 14th 2026

It's good to see everybody. >> If I could ask you please to turn off your phones >> so that we don't have any interruptions. Thank you for coming out on a cold and uh damp morning. It's nice and warm in here and this year she will generate quite a lot of heat today. Uh I'm going to be able to feel your brains overheating, I think, a little bit. It's going to be complicated. But before we get into the sh let me thank our sponsors the shirim today uh the benmidash program here on Wednesday mornings is dedicated for this academic year Daniel ben Davidid and limudram strauss morai ben mosha and raisel may marcus um parents of judy and marcus also my sh for the year is sponsored anonymously leu nishmo brandit and zeli ben kalman alle malam Um and also the sh is specifically sponsored today by Miriam and Marvin Sha. Um Miriam's father Mosha Rnner Zra whose side is the Shabas the 28th of Taves. Thank you for that sponsorship and much much appreciated and we will get straight into the share. This is part two of a threepart series. The good news is next week is more straightforward. Uh I've already I had to prepare next week before I could really do this week as well. Um uh and we started last week with an overview of what is kaatur. We're really looking at the issue of partnership minyanim and their main innovation which is giving women aliots um in a minion with a mita but calling up the women and then making the braas etc. Uh we are not dealing today with the issue or in this series of women davening from the certain parts of the davening. We can get to that another time. Next week we'll speak a little bit about kal isha a little bit next week. Um and I also realized that I I don't have time in the three shirim I I'm doing to get into the broader hashkafi questions. We'll do that a little bit today a little bit next week but I want to give a a different maybe series dedicated to that possibly after purim. Uh but for now we're in the more technical issue. Last week we looked at the foundations of the Torah reading being from Sinai and also from Ezra when Ezra and you read the Torah in in also from the mitzvah of Hel where the king every year reads on Sukas for everyone to listen. And we saw there that that all three of those occasions specified very specifically that the women had to be there. It was essential that the women were part of that experience. And this therefore does connect women very strongly with the idea of creator. The question is whether it relates in the same way or a parallel way to the to the mitzvah that we have on a weekly basis. And we saw that that evolved as a rabbitic law from Moshe to Ezra and now to what we have today. Originally it was just one person reading the Torah. Maybe three, maybe three people reading one each. Then Ezra said there's a whole system Mondays and Thursdays and Shabas morning with seven alias and and Shabas afternoon etc etc and we have now this mitzvah that we do the main thing that we need to keep in mind all the way through today's sh is the following question when the person gets up to read from the Torah and to make the braas we'll see that now we've split those roles we'll see that today what are they doing are they fulfilling some kind of individual ual obligation. Do all the people, let's say all the men, we'll look at women again today. Do all the men there have an individual obligation? I need to hear what's being read here. I'm you're reading it for me a little bit like McGillad Esther. It's not as much as with McGillad Esther. It's clear everybody has an individual obligation to read men and women. And the person who's reading it is doing that for me. But do we say a similar kind of thing with creator or no? Or do we say this is a communal obligation? This is an obligation on the community. Maybe the men have a responsibility to set that up to make sure there's a minion to make sure there's someone who can read. But once they've done that, it's a community obligation. And therefore, I don't really mind who is reading, who is making those braas because they're doing it for the community, not for us as individuals. So as long as they're part of the community, then that's fine. And women are part of the community. So we we have to keep those two questions in mind. And the the problematic nature of this topic, in my personal opinion, is we never really resolve that question. It's left as a question. Is it a communal obligation? Is it an individual obligation? And when we get into the nitty-gritty of women saying those braot, that's going to be very very important. And the the the question of woman being called up to make an aliyah is only even going to get started if we say well it's communal and therefore people can do it even if they're you know not a man and we'll see that it's very hard to make that point which is why I'm going to suggest to you today that women's aliot probably don't even get off the ground even from the first stage because of all these complicated issues and then we need to get to next week's sh which is even if you've made a that women can be called up for an aliyah having got through all of this complex web that we're going to do today. You then have to deal with the question of which is if you remember the Gammorra said the quoted Bryce in theory women are able to be called up for aliot and we'll see maybe the way we do it today that doesn't work anymore anyway but you you can't call them up because of next week we're going to look at what is cover does it apply today does it change with time can people say in we don't mind we're happy etc now I'm not going to take any questions right now uh we're going to just see we need to get into it otherwise it's going to be too complicated with everybody uh you know asking questions which probably I'm going to deal with anyway. So let's let's have a look at some of the very important parts of uh creator. I think this is important just as a topic to learn because we all hear the Torah. Forget about the issue of women's aliot. What are we really doing when we hear from the person reading the Torah? So let's today look at the brahas as a starter. Look at number one. Remember from Ezra when we were reading this Ezra makes a it's there in the Ezra makes his to the great God. He glorifies and and magnifies God. And all the people responded. Amen. This is in they lifted up their hands and they bowed and they prostrated themselves very energetic very exciting etc. highlights this number two. What was the thing that really glorified and magnified God? How did they do that especially apart from just the reading soap? I'm not getting into that. But that's very interesting that that Ezra actually said the shame hurash. This was not in the beta mikdash. This was outside the beta mikdash. So that's a whole conversation. How was that? Okay. Obviously was how was that? How was that done? Not getting into it now. But no, it's the making of the bra that is the key point here with the creative Torah. Not just reading from the Torah, but that we all make a public brah. We're going to talk about boraku in a minute. So we're going to see a reading of the Torah without the braot or with inappropriate brahot is very problematic because the braha is really at the center of everything that's going on here. Um for example let's talk about boru for a second. There is a debate in the Mishna. People may be familiar with this. When you lead the benching and people say there's a debate in the in the Mishna actually as to whether the person leading the benching says let's make or he says no we don't do for benching now but there is a debate should he do tell them to bench should he say but the Gmorrah chimes in here the number three he says but when he comes to the braas on the Torah faining Harry who everybody agrees he has to say laning benching is the question laning is not a question is central to laning so much that I brought you from the number four where he says I think I want to suggest he says even in the time of the and immediately when Ezra brought this in and it could even Even from the time of Moshe from the very beginning was central to what we're doing. It's this public invitation and the people had to answer. We take it so for granted. We say it so many times. But this is an enormously central part of what's going on that you turn around to the whole congregation say bless with me. If we did this in English, we would sound like an evangelical church. Praise the Lord with me. And everyone goes, "Praise me." And it it really this is what we're doing. We're just doing it in Hebrew and we're used to it, etc. is very very important. The idea of making a before we learn Torah, which we do, of course, in the morning, men and women. The idea of doing that before is in the Torah itself. There is a debate as to whether um the on learning Torah the before learning Torah is itself. Look at number five. How do we know says that making a before you learn Torah is itself a Torah requirement? What what's going on there? Mosher Rabenu is about to teach the people Torah inu and he says before I even do this I'm going to call out in God's name and you're going to respond as if he stood up and said like and they all responded and then he teaches the Torah. So there is sad to say that the brahas that we make in the morning on the Torah is a Torah requirement. What about making a bra after reading Torah? When do we make a well the only which is in the Torah of course is Ben? No. Every other we make is for sure. But if you look here in the number six, the Gomorrah goes on to say we see that there's a mitzvah to make a afterm from all the more so just like it doesn't need a before but it does after meaning on food that we eat. There is no Torah requirement to make beforehand. Everybody agrees, but there is a Torah requirement to make afterwards that's all rebinic. But uh but benching afterwards that's been so has a after but no before. But when I now say now additionally has a before it surely it has to have a braha after because having a bra after is the Torah model. And if I now see it has to have a braha before then all them also it has to have a braha after. And therefore the idea of making two andu is is is very built into the system. We're going to see at the end of this year, I'd really hope to get there. When we talk about women's Torah readings with just women, meaning not a partnership minion, a women's Torah reading, they don't make the brahas. Well, well, they shouldn't make the brahas. We'll see that. That's clear, but maybe they do sometimes. But the Torah reading without the braas, I'm not saying it's it's zero. It's definitely wonderful. People want to come together and they want to read from it. Back in the old days, people used to have a safer Torah in the house and when they wanted to learn a little bit, they'd just pull a safer Torah out and they they just read it to learn when he would give a shir on Friday night, he'd had his he had his own safer Torah. He had his own private safety to he didn't open a he opened a safer Torah. And there is actually an opinion which we for sure don't follow me so I brought it down that even a private individual who is about to learn Torah maybe from a safer Torah just in the evening one night still makes the before and after he stands up and he says okay and afterwards now we don't follow that opinion but it's it's you see so baked into the idea of learning and reading the before and after that the idea of of reading without a really uh deflates the mitzvah very significantly, but we'll get there when we get there. So, they're the in the original system. Now, you know where everyone who gets an aliyah makes a didn't used to be that way. Number seven says the gor shabas morning you're calling up seven men to read. The first one originally the first one makes the beforehand. And every and he doesn't make an after it. All the next five people that you call up don't make any they just get up and they read and the last person number seven who gets called he doesn't make a before he reads and he finishes off and the whole thing is one unit. The ran explains in number eight the reasoning behind this is only the first and the last make the opening and the closing the middle people but they're all exempted because it's one mitzvah. Everyone in the middle is just part of that mitzvah and they're all like one person. In fact, the Meri brings down that all of those men who were getting alias in the middle had to be there at the beginning and the end to hear the braha of the beginning and the end cuz those brahas were also relating to them. Why did we change this? This sounds great. It's one unit. You open with a braha, you close with a braha because people came in late. People left early. Everyone's, you know, running draining in, draining out, etc. So the GRA says we can't do that anymore. Even in the time of the Gomorrah, people were running in and out. Look at number nine. So now just like we just said, the opening guy has to make a and the closing guy makes the after. And it's funny, isn't it, to see the Talmud saying and these days like these days in our modern times says the everybody makes a prophet before and afterwards. And the following reason is the reason for this because people Rashi explains I'm not going to read the rash inside people might come in late and they never heard the braha at the beginning and they'll say shand people are reading the Torah without saying a braha that's terrible people might leave early and they didn't hear the braha afterwards and they'll say terrible meaning you just see how important the brahas are that We don't you could say to the guy, "No, you came in late. What do you think's going to happen? You don't hear everything if you come in late or if you leave early." We don't even want people to think by accident that they didn't make a braha. The braha is so important. So that to the to the point that they made every single person make a braha, which is interesting. I mean I mean are these brahas? Obviously not because said when kazal say make a braha the braha is obviously a legitimate braha because they said to make it can't be a braha. But they added all these extra braas again and again and again. Even someone's already had an aliyah, a Cohen who is called Cohen and he makes his two braas and then they say Eddie Levim here and there's no ley. They say do it again. Well, I just did it. Do it again because you you every single unit now has its own bra. We're going to see in a minute. It's a sepha. If there's it used to be if there's but before they had val ka val if there's only one man there who can read from the Torah you call him up seven times. We'll see that in a minute. Okay, how that works. But the braas are very very important. And I brought you number 11. An interesting story when they brought this in this new rule that everyone makes a said the story is told. Okay. He was he was walking by the window by the when they were laying from the Torah. He could hear this congregation reading but they didn't have people making on each. They were keeping the old which was already outdated and they changed it. I'm alone. They said he said to them you can't do this. How long are you going to read the Torah? What's kak >> bald? You're making the Torah bald. YOU'RE KIND OF PULLING OUT its it's got to have these brahas there. You're giving a patch a patchwork Torah. A bit here, a bissle there. You're not allowed to do that. It has to have its braas. You're not allowed to leave the Torah bare, etc. Now, okay, good. We have a bra now on every single aliyah. We do that because of the people coming in, the people going out. Who is the person making the bra for? Who's the person making for? And we're still holding in a in a paradigm where the person who's called up is reading their own portion. Yeah. And we don't have a buri yet. Buri came after the Gomorrah. And we'll see why in a minute. Very interesting reason. So when the person's called up and he comes up and he's making his braas and reading his bit, who's he reading that for? Who's he making the brahas for? So there are three approaches. One approach is that the person is making the braha for uh the individual obligation of the people who are there. Okay. What does that mean? Every single person present has an obligation to make a braha. But the guy who's making the brah is making it for me and for him and for him and for him and for her and for him and for her. Maybe her. We'll see her in a minute. Okay, fine. So the bet yf says this an interesting thing. Look in top of page number three. The scenario we're dealing with is as follows. The Torah asked an interesting question. What happens if somebody came late to Shaw? Coming late to Shaw obviously is a real uh you know scenario that people have been dealing with for a long time and they were late and they're catching up and they just said their own in the just started. They just said it. They didn't even have time to say the corbonus yet. Meaning in the morning we say the brahas and then we learn a little bit a little bit of a little bit of Mishna a little bit of Gomorrah. He didn't even have time to learn. He just said his braas and then he heard, you know, and he doesn't know what to do. He walks up. Can he make them again? Meaning he's just made and now he's going and he didn't do anything with it. And now he's being asked to make again. Surely you can't just make the same twice, says the bet. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. Number 12. If the man is late, someone was late in and they called up for this scenario. He quotes he has to make that all over again. Okay. And the reason he gives is he has to be everybody else. He made the for himself. But it's not just for him, it's for everybody else there. So that's clearly going with an idea that he's making the braha for me. We all have our individual obligations. Alternatively, option number two, maybe he's just making it for himself. Maybe I don't have an obligation to read. Maybe I have an obligation to hear, but maybe he's just making it for himself. And then we're going to ask the question, well, let's say women are not obligated in a mitzvah. Can they make a brah on that mitzvah? >> Yes. >> Well, the ashen say yes. But the spardim say >> no. >> No. And we'll get to that in a minute. Why did the spardim say no? Well, one of the main reasons is how can she say how can she say God commanded me to do this? Well, the Torah doesn't say. So, is it okay even for? We'll get there in a minute. So, that's another option. She's making it he's making it for himself. Or the other option which we keep coming back to is maybe this is nothing to do with individuals. This is all about the community. I don't care whether you have a we have a community. Anyone can make the who's in the community. If you look at number 13, this is a very important cha of the rashbah. He makes this point. The rashbar is asked me someone who doesn't know how to read which of course is the new reality he's dealing with in the 12 13th 13th century. We're going to bring in this said he's asking does this even work? We do this every week. Can he go up and make the and somebody else come up a professional and read which you and I now call he does this work? He answers yes someone who makes the and didn't read it's not called it's fine he can make that why not like we just saw it's not an individual he's being it's for the it's for the community of course he can make the game ap me ain't I don't care whether he's reading I don't care who's reading it's for everybody together it's a now you're going to ask are women part of that well for Mintora they were for Ezra they were for Hak they were on the other hand we'll see next week Ravgor says yeah but we need a minion and the women can't do that so how can you be part of the where you can't actually make the thing that creates the ability for the Tamil to do So we'll see Ravgor whether we agree with Gin Ravgor when we get there. Okay. So you see already there's a debate which we're not going to answer exactly but that that terms on you know what are the brahas uh who are they being made for and now what kind of braas are they? Is it like a on a mitzvah? Habac number 14 says the really interesting range of sources we're going to see today from the school of he says okay let's talk about number 14 if you want to argue if you say that somebody uh somebody forgot to say in the morning do they have to say later on let's say there is a rule I'm not sure If you wear this is a hala and somebody didn't say birkatra a man or a woman or they can't remember if they said birka zatatura at the beginning sometimes people are a bit smished at the beginning of the day they just woke up and they they already think oh can I did I say bas or not you can well how could someone think that way it happens to me more than once you know the answer is it's fine when you read which is the before the and it says or lame that acts as a bas that is the bas is okay. So somebody already did a my timer. So what's the reason now creates? So why do they get up and make another so the answer when he's reading from the Torah? The answer is no. It's a mitzvah. It's an independent mitzvah because Ezra made this a rabbitic mitzvah. ores or the if you want to do a mitzvah you make a meaning I don't know what you're asking it's a on mitzvah there's a separate mitzvah of reading from the Torah it's a rabbitic mitzvah you make a it's nothing to do with what you did in the morning so but you see from here he understands that the on the Torah is a mitzvah okay it doesn't say doesn't matter it's a different kind of but it's a on the mitzvah and then we're going to have to ask well again if a woman who is not obligated in the mitzvah does she make that yes or no we'll get to that in a minute however the Torah says this is not a mitzvah it's av it's praising God looking at number 15 which is we'll see also in a minute from the 112th century he says as follows he brings of Sagon even though this person's already made the early in the morning when he reads the he still says the on the why not it's a it's not that I'm making a on a mitzvah I'm making av like the on thunder the big the big shil in the school that I teach at yesterday is all the girls told me they woke up in the middle of the night in two nights ago with a clap of thunder like you've never heard I don't live in I live in Kushet we didn't have that clap of thunder there and all the girls were asking you know do I have to make a bra you know if I'm asleep and I've just woke up and I didn't wash my hands and they're like I'm very impressed that they're all asking those shilas okay but it's av you make it's not a mitzvah It's a praise. So maybe the on the Torah is we have Torah. We're very happy. Again, even if you want to argue, women don't make brahas on mitzvah that they're not obligated in, which is debatable. Well, maybe this is not a mitzvah. Women make brahas of praise. No one's obligated. It's praising the Torah. So again, we're not going to resolve that. It's going to be a question out there as an issue. What kind of braha is it? Now let's get into the issue uh of the balra cuz this actually is fascinating. Why did we start with the balorra? The garra doesn't know anything about a balora. The gammorra assumes everyone who goes up reads. So look at number 16. This is the I referred to before only has one person who can know knows how to read every time you know he gets all the ears because he's the only person that can read. He has to sit down each time, you know, but he he gets all the alias and maybe he would make a braha. Maybe you don't make it at the beginning of the end. Again, this was before everyone made a braha. What's the problem of of of just having a go, you know, okay, you don't read the best, but like no, you can't have a balora who doesn't know how to read in in in an ideal world. Look at number 17. This is a phenomenal midrash. I'd never seen this midrash before, and it's it's it's very very striking. Rabi it happened once with Rabi the Gabby which I call him up for an aliyah this is reba the he didn't want to go he said no said to him and this is not young this is olda with raenu they said like didn't you teach This Torah is a life. This is the length of our days. It's terrible to to to be called up and refuse to go when it says this is the length of your days. The Gomorrah says elsewhere. Someone who's called up to the Torah and doesn't go for the aliyah. It could shorten their days because this is the length of your days and you're not going up. By the way, little preview for next week. One of the situations in which today's postkim do allow a woman to have an aliyah depending on who you ask is if they called her up mistakenly the gaba you know doesn't realize or doesn't care and he says yam yam you know rather and and and and he calls her up maybe you called her up she's she can't refuse because once you call someone upbas whatever then then she can't say no. We'll we'll see. It's very it's very problematic to say no. So why did he say no? He said to them I swear he says the only reason I said no is I didn't prepare the laning. I'm not going to go up there and read when I don't know what I'm doing. I didn't prepare twice or three times. You're only allowed to read from the Torah. You have to have gone through it clearly twice or three times prepared in advance. And then he says an amazing thing. We find that Hashem did the same thing because it says this is the ten commandments. God said all of these things saying first of all first he practiced the laning. God's practicing the laying of the ten commandments and then he says it over but God's not even God's not going to come along and laid it in public without being sure what does that even mean how do you even touch there you know unpack it it's a fascinating message but Rabi said no and therefore people who can't lane shouldn't lane number 18 look someone who just doesn't know how to lane Okay. Okay. He's completely uh he's completely uh exempted. And he's not even allowed. He's not allowed to get up and read. What happens if he can fudge it just about? Okay. He's not like he's clueless, but he can, you know, I need a bit of help. What do they do? Again, they didn't have about Cairo. So the the should whisper the words to him. Yeah. Like someone whispering to their friend but mustn't hear the whispering it because then there'll be two people at the same time. And we we people can't focus on two noises at the same time. We'll see that when you call is so what did they do back in the day before they had a bal. So people who couldn't read they didn't call them up. people who could half half read, they call them up and they they they'd look at it and they'd look at the guy and they go, "Bracious berious." Now they they do all the this business, you know. Oops. >> Sorry about that. >> Okay, that's you. Sorry. Um, >> it's a l o u d. >> What did I say? >> You spelled a >> Oh, repeat them aloud. Sorry, picked up my spelling. Yes. Yes. Quite right. Aloud. Not repeat them aloud. Thank you. I will correct that. Um but the um the point is that they whispered they whispered uh to them what the laning was and to bring the same idea that they would whisper the the laning the reading to the person who was reading. Look here in number 19 they didn't have a a fixed to do the laning. What do we do now in France? He gives him a hand. He whispers the words in his mouth because we don't want to embarrass people if they don't know how to read. Like we see with this is already from in the mikdash. They had to the person who was bringing the first fruits had to do had to say it in order not to embarrass people who didn't know how to say it. They instituted that the person would be Maka. They would say it for them like we do often under you know the the rather the the they do this less and less now but when I was younger they everyone did this says har at you know madesh etc cuz they people get flustered in the in the in the you know the last minute and and and don't know what to say. Fine. So we don't embarrass people. So we we we whisper everything to them and we let them read. Fine. We instituted a baloran but for two reasons and we'll see the second one in the rush. One of them we've just seen is people don't know how to read and it's embarrassing for them if they're called up or if they say no or if they don't know what they're doing. But there's a second reason that the rush going to bring. Some people think that they can read. Oh, I'm about from pan, you know, and you call them up and it's not embarrassing for them. It's embarrassing for everybody else because he doesn't know how to read and he thinks he does know how to read and then he'll start a fight in short. Okay, people can get borers quite easily. You may have worked this out over the last few years and therefore that's another reason why we brought it in. We'll see this in a minute in the rush. So originally we had no balor but now we do. So now we have a problem and this is going to compound our our problem with women's broccolas. It was one thing saying, "Can I call up a woman to read herself and make the brahas?" It's another thing to saying, "Well, now we're going to have someone making the braas and someone else reading." Who's doing what for whom? And there are four options. Option number one is the er is really making the brah for himself and he has to read along quietly. And any people in the room, I assume most of the men have had an aliyah, will know that most people read along quietly. If anyone's a bal courier, they'll know that most people read along quietly and get half of it wrong. Okay? But nevertheless, they read and that's based on a rash number 20 these days. He's living in the 13th century in Spain and then in Germany then Spain. These days he says that we have a fixed cross. is to not embarrass people who don't know what they're doing. Not everybody knows the interesting the tim is the song. Okay. Is the trope. So not everybody knows that and if you get the trope wrong you might not be y this is actually a very interesting question we're not dealing with. If you get the words wrong it's definitely a problem. But what if you just don't know the the tune? So the tune can be the punctuation for for the words. You know in English we have commas. In in in the Torah they have no commas and full stops. And therefore the difference between let's eat, grandma and let's eat grandma are are very two very very different statements. So um uh for example in the do not steal I can't remember the exact each one for their fellow men is usually a mitzvah between Jews. So, oh, it says lognov, you're not allowed to steal from Jews, but you are allowed to steal, it sounds like, from non-Jews. And the answer to the rit says, "No, you didn't punctuate it right has an period. You can't steal from anybody. The other mitzvah at the end, and that maybe is a different chil as to who you're dealing with, but if you don't if you don't pronounce the trope right, then maybe you're getting it all wrong." So we have a for who and this person who's going to get up in his own eyes he thinks he can lane and if you if you don't let him imagine you have a him will let lane you we won't let lane there's going to be a fight but the person who's called up has to read quietly and properly we're together with and the says if you don't read along quietly with you just made a why cuz the was for you it was for your mitzvah you're making that for yourself and if you can't read you can't read and you're making and for someone who doesn't know how to read quietly you can't call him up because it doesn't make sense that he's making a for the he's making a for himself the pas and the pas this way number 21 if the person you're calling up doesn't know how to read along you can't give him an aliyah a blind person you can't give him an aliyah because unless he's able to read properly with the with the balkari rather it's brok now we don't do that today can you imagine if we only called up people we test it it's bad enough that we test the the balor we have to know that the people can read before we call them up we we don't do that and we'll see why in a minute we don't do that um Rashman raises a question like why exactly are we uh are we saying that this works that the is making a bra and then reading so quietly that no one can hear him okay maybe he can here himself. He raises a question. I don't I don't know how that system would work that he's making a bra for himself and reading quietly along. Like I said, um we don't ask in that way. We call up everybody for an aliyah. We call up a blind person for an aliyah, every man for an aliyah. Um part of the reason for that is zohar. The zohar actually says not only is it not necessary to read along, but it's terrible to read along. Alpa and a lot of people now kind of rely if you like on that. And also Maril says you don't have to read along. I'm not getting into the cabala now. But that whole system of reading along okay it that's what the rash says but it's not so straightforward. There's another option. Maybe I'm not making the braas for my own reading. Maybe I can make a he can read and I'm by what? If I have in mind I have an obligation to do something and he does it for me then it's as if I did it. Think about it. Um uh para Z or C McGill. So we have a situation where um the person who reads is reading for me. It's as if I'm reading. I don't need to read along. I'm listening. He has in mind to be moy me. I have in mind to be with him. I'm doing it. If the person making kdish on Friday night is making kdish he has in mind for me. It's as if I'm making kdish. I'm actually saying the wordsically even though I'm not saying them physically. So maybe it just works through that. that Joseph says this in number 23 says you could alternatively argue no as long as the person who is coming up for an aliyah can hear what the is saying and he has intention to be covered Harry's as if he's reading the because we say is and therefore that works just fine the misha ask a question on this like does that really work? Look at what he says in number 24. If you're not reading along for yourself, then you're like everybody else. Think about it. The guy who's standing there says and then quietly listens. He's the same as everybody else. So why is he making a braha? Why is he any different from the guy sitting on the fifth row listening to the laning? Let him make a braha. It's all the same. Well, what are you doing? You're just just you're just listening and well, he's also just listening. So then why are you making the and he's not making the you're all in the same boat. But with the people sitting in the they didn't make a for them. And he answers maybe I could maybe say maybe the is only having to be the person who was actually having the reading for him. Well, what about all the others? We'll see. The whole point is we don't embarrass people if they don't know how to read. What about the guys, the women in maybe maybe they don't need to say it, they just need to hear it. And therefore, now we're kind of splitting people up, which is the person having the ali as if he's saying it. But the people sitting in the audience, as it were, they don't need to say, they just need to hear it. It's a different kind of mitzvah. And that's why they don't say a braha. Maybe it's different for he's the only one who sees the >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He's the only one who could read. Yeah. And the mitzvah can read. >> Those words. >> I understand. But with McGill, we don't care. With parak, we don't care. I don't have to read a McGill to be and just listen. Rosha makes it even more complicated. If you thought it wasn't complicated enough, number 22, the guy who's getting out to make a who he is considered the one who is reading and he is is is reading for the other people for the even though he's not reading anything for who and that's because the actual So Ra Moshi says, "What's actually happening? I go up for an aliyah. I'm making the I'm not saying anything, but I am being the rest of the people." Okay. Well, I'm not saying anything. No, but he's my and I'm making him my to read for me and therefore he's doing the physical acts, but it's really like I'm like, whoa. Like what's going on? This is getting very complicated. Suppose >> he's deaf. suppose who's deaf and >> a good question that it falls apart if he's deaf because he can't hear you can't it doesn't work if you're in a shame you're right then there's the possibility which is the one we keep coming back to well maybe it's just a communal thing and then we don't mind and anyone can make the braha really as long as it's anyone in the community and we're going to see that's what the the women's aliyah movement is going to fall back on even though that's a minority opinion and then you have something really interesting which is a complete flip which is that the maybe it may be that the the real person who's reading is the bal I'm making the brahas why >> for him >> for him he's not reading for me I'm making a bra for him and he's the one that's doing the mitzvah does that work can someone else do a mitzvah and then you come along and make a braha yes because and now we have arous for example we're not going to learn it inside. But number 26 is the mitzvah of sits. So the the uh when when someone wants to wear tits and they say, "I'm going to wear tits, but I'd like you to make a bra for me." So if everybody's doing the mitzvah together, then for sure one person can make a braha and everybody's covered. We do that all the time. Yeah. Um and that's what we do with food and drink. If like everybody's having a glass of coke, one person can make shahakal and everybody says amen and we're all good. But if he's already done a mitzvah, I already did the mitzvah before. Can he make a braha? Now with Shahakal, he can't do that. You can't say to someone, well, you're not having a drink of coke and I am, but please can you just make the shahakal for me and I'll listen. That doesn't work because he's not drinking. You can't just say shahakal in the middle of nowhere and somebody else be it. But it does work for mitzvah um because and therefore someone can really turn around and say okay you don't want to make the braha I'm going to make the braha for you in like no you could maybe even do this for benching I'm not meaning somebody's had bread and somebody says can you just bench for me you didn't even eat maybe you can sit there and say the whole bas for them because there's a if you didn't do the mitzvah I didn't do the mitzvah. >> Good question. What about for wine? What about if one person didn't hear kittish and everybody else did? >> Oh, then they make they didn't hear it at all. They have to make their own kittish. Obviously, >> have to make >> Yeah, sure. Because because they didn't hear kittish. So, you either have to hear it or make it. So, it could work like that. And I'm not even going to get into all of the the the possibilities, but it could be that I'm the who's making the braha for him and he's doing the mitzvah. Okay. So, let's get to women. Now, let's talk about women. All of this I needed to prepare you with in order that you'll now know how it all works with women. So as we said before, let's just look at the uh the the the source again. Just skip 27 and go to 28. This is our main classic source. Everyone in principle adds up to the seven alias. Whether it's a woman, whether it's a child, but the rabbi said a woman shouldn't read from the fine. the cover and the we'll get to next week. But in principle, a woman can have an aliyah. So now let's try and plug this into everything we've said. If everybody is individually obligated and now we're calling up a woman to read, can a woman who is less obligated read for a man who is more obligated? And the answer is no. That doesn't work. We have a principle number 29 says the mission. If you don't have an obligation and you can't do it for other people. Now you're going to tell me, "Yeah, but well this guy who just did a mitzvah can still make a bra for someone even though he's no longer obligated. I I already benched and I can bench again for you. Maybe certainly I can blow the chauffeur or something for you if I already did it." Well, that's because of arvas because we're all responsible for each other. If you didn't do the mitzvah in a certain certain way, I didn't do the mitzvah either. I could make, let's say you come to my house on Friday night, I didn't hear kdish. I already heard kdish. I already made kdish. I can make kdish again. I can do that even though with the braha and everything because we're responsible. But that's because we have the same obligation. If you don't have that obligation, I I can't do it for you and you can't do it for me. It doesn't work. We're on a different obligation level. So the Magna Ram is the one voice that wants to suggest maybe women are obligated but he says like I said in the end of last week but then he says but I don't know because all the women walk out of laning when when we start laning in Mulan in the 1600s but let's look at the he's very clear and this is the position of pretty much all postgame women are definitely not obligated in the same way in the Torah number 31 he says I want you to know it does the women have to listen to like men do and I want to say it's not really that remember that is a problematic source it also said women have to have an obligation to say which is not true we really think in this sense that women and their children have the same obligation here Tal she's not obligated in the same way in Tala. So of course you have to hear the laning the same way. And what could be more of a positive timebound mitzvah than laning? You can only do it now in on a Monday on a Thursday and don't we have a principle that women are exempted from positive time by mitzvah? This is the the ultimate the don't bring as an example. All the women had to be there. The women says that the have to the says the women have to be there for this is a special thing once every seven years. The king read from it was very inspirational. But you want to tell me women have an obligation every that's a strange thing to suggest and you can see just look are the women there or are the women not there do they come does anyone tell them they have to come nobody goes and tells the women they have to come for grace etc they're very uh very much part of the or if they're there but they don't have to come along and and generally speaking ef And even if they come, they can't even hear. >> Why can't they hear? Because the sh acoustic is terrible. Because they're all talking, you know, because the men are talking. Let's me >> all the way in the back. >> They're at the back. He says look you know he's not saying that's an ideal but they they're not able to hear from is just giving you and also that's when they had a women even understood it then because they translated simultaneously says now we don't even we don't even have a taragum so what are the women going to get out of it he's assuming the women are not literate they don't understand Hebrew they are they're not there they can't hear it he says don't come and tell me that women are obligated in Tamata it's just not true this Magnaf Ram is is if he's even sure he said even though the Magnav Ram is not sure he says I am sure women are not obligated I brought you number seven at the top page seven sorry 32 Rasha says that of course if a woman comes to laning she is doing the mitzvah of communal creatur because even though she's not obligated she is doing the mitzvah she's part of the sib and he's going to that with with women's prayer services if she goes to a women's reading with no brahas with no baraku she's missing out on the mitzvah of ka satyo now you could sit around and say okay well she's not obligated she prefers to do this it's more okay good you can make a case for that but it is no there's no question that the women are uh or there's almost no question they're not obligated the miri which is a long miri which I'm not going to read inside says and therefore this is very important number 33 when it's said in the bryer that the Women can be called up. He meant in the middle when they didn't used to make brahas. You have a man at the beginning, you have a man at the end. They make the brahas. They're obligated. They're being mozzar. They're doing everything right. And the women in the middle are reading, but they're not making the brahas cuz remember they didn't make brahas in the middle. So it's fine. It's all one unit. Why are they calling up women? Could be there weren't enough men. There weren't enough people that knew how to read. They had a guy for the beginning. They had a guy for the end. And they had a few kids and some women in the middle. But it doesn't matter cuz they're not making the brahas says the mir but today when everyone makes a bra on their own aliyah the whole thing falls apart. It doesn't work. How can she make brahas? She's not obligated in that mitzvah in the same way and she certainly can't be Mo mighty the man. Um now let's go on a little bit. Um yeah let's go on a little bit and then we'll talk about women's readings at the very very end. Let's just make one more point on this issue of uh whether women can or can't make the braha. Just go to page 8. So we all know that there is a distinction between and ashkanazin. Um in fact on this question where it's very interesting to who is the one who's trying to justify generally with with mitzvah that women are not obligated to suka cha um lulv why do ashkenazi women make brahas? He's trying to find out how can that be okay. The Ramdown says explicitly it's not okay. The Gomorrah never mentions it. Now if the Gomorrah never mentions it, maybe he never mentions it because it's obviously not okay or because it obviously is okay. But the Ram says no. So it's to say what can we do? Our women are making brahas. It sounds like it's coming from the women by the way. But that they can't be wrong to tell all the women that they're all wrong. He says that's not an option which is very interesting. I don't think the ram man would have a problem with that. And for the spar also even if it's a min, I don't care if it's a min. If it's wrong, it's wrong. For the Ashkanazin, we take our women very seriously and we take our minag very seriously and therefore it can't be wrong if the women are doing it. One of the proofs he brings that you can see it's okay for a woman to make a bra on a mitzvah even if she's not obligated is from here and she says because you see women are called up to the Torah in theory before we get on to yeah women are called up they're making a braha they're not obligated so obviously you see from here that women are obligated are allowed to make a braha on something they're not obligated in but then they say no maybe there's other things maybe it's not a brick mitzvah maybe it's a brick like we said before Or maybe this like we saw before with the miri that it's the women in the middle that came and not the women that made the brahas etc etc. So again it's not clear and I've summarized for you at the end at the bottom of page eight. There are basically four approaches as to whether women can make the brahas on here we are 1 2 3 4 look at them with me at the bottom of page eight. One the mitzvah and they're being other people and the women can't say them because she's not obligated. She can't make a bra. She can't do it because she can't be. Number two, maybe the brahas are still basi and she says I can I can make brahas on uh on mitzvah that I'm not obligated in. Or maybe because he doesn't say it's different. That's great, but you still can't be mo to the guys because you're less obligated and they're more obligated. Or option number three, the brah is a personal obligation of the I'm not being mo to anyone. She's just saying look, I'm doing it for myself. Okay, that could work. or the braha is a communal obligation and therefore anybody in theory can say it. So maybe number three and number four maybe would scrape through. But then we'd still have to ask the question next week of what happened to cover sibl and before we even get there we have another problem page number nine. All of this is before we had a balora we've just spent 15 minutes talking about what goes on with the balora. Am I doing the bros for him? Is he doing the laning for me? Am I doing it for them? is he my am I doing and there's all Rabbi Frimmer and Rabbi Frimmer who wrote that 90,000word article that I mentioned last week have pages and pages and pages and honestly if we try to go through it we'd be here so there'd be no one left in the share at the end everyone would have walked out I let you read it please um but I'll summarize it they basically said that because of the complications of the bal there's almost no combination that would work today for a woman to have an aliyah other than a woman coming up and reading her own laning for herself. So that's the only one that will work. Maybe according to a minority opinion, a male balora and a female hola, but probably not according to the majority, but what would work is for her to do it for herself. And all of that is before the issue of covered sib. So I I I think it's pretty clear to me anyway in my humble opinion it doesn't work according to the vast majority of postkin before we even get to cover sib which we're going to see next week does let's spend 3 minutes talking about women's readings where not partnership with minyanim where um it's just women now in theory this should be more simple and straightforward yeah because we're not dealing with ka satara there's no minion it's not katatur you're not going to have the formal structure satara and the question is can you have a woman's safer Torah reading which is not creator. So this really is separate Shia but I I'll talk about it for 5 minutes and it's not actually not that complicated. There are four halaki questions. Number one, can the women touch and move the cif to? Yes, we talked about that when we talked about dancing with the safetra. That's not really a haki issue. Number two, can we move the safer Torah for a non- mitzvah? You can't just take a safer Torah out to show to people like a tourist group. There has to be a mitzvah. Okay. So you could argue you use a private safety Torah. Maybe not a schul safety Torah. I brought you here the the hats if someone has people have private cifrey Torah. So then you can move around for uh for for women's readings uh because they're private cifrey Torah. Then there's the question of you know can they miss out on the mitzvah of laning in the when they're choosing to do something which is not that. So okay you know Rasha says it's a shame but she might say it's fine. I'd rather go here. The main problem is the braha in a women's only reading with no minion. Can they make the brahas basra? And the answer is definitely not definitely not because it's not laning with no minion. So what do they do? So some women's services they just miss the braas out and they read. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. Some of them try and replace the braas with other things you know nice readings and citations. Some of them say, you know, the the from which is the everyone should know that because that's what you say when you've started saying and you you realize that you're it's going to be okay that's nice. Um some of them try to engineer a situation. I'm not gonna say in the morning when I wake up and do and I'm gonna delay it till I come and I'm gonna say it now but it's really my from a personal I brought you in the footnotes a lot of reasons why that's problematic and even Rabonin who are very uh open to innovation on women's areas of giggy in the gush says that won't work and the the real uh answer is that actually it seems clear not the real answer but I brought you a survey from Joe for as to who does what. A lot of these women's readings just say, you know something, we're just going to make the braas and we'll just, you know, we'll do whatever we want. And like I said last week, not all of them do that. But that's part of the problem here because if you don't have any kind, and that's wrong clearly, no question. But if you have no hakic sort of supervision of any kind, there's no rabbi, there's no of any kind, even one that's very liberal and very open to these things, people end up doing whatever they want. And therefore you can see for yourself and and go around and see what people do. Uh again many of them are very magpid. There's a women's uh you know Torah reading group in in our in Alen. They're very magpid. They don't make the braas etc. Okay. There are women who are very magpid but there are plenty of situations where it slides into a nonallak observers. Okay. So I hope that that was uh not too uh much. Next week will be more straightforward. Uh but so far so good.