Parshas Vayeitzey: Breaking an Engagement

this Torah class is brought to you by Torah anytime.com okay here in Hills that that's right has the following question raan wants to know and what's in this week's we know that we have a tradition even now presuma Not only was abah M but the other of us were also M the whole and therefore that begs the question IFR was m and was M how could Yu marry two sisters how could y marry two sisters to which the ran offers the well-known answer that that the main location of the performance of MIT is doing is only practice but it's not the real thing and therefore y never married two sisters in he only married them in okay that's the famous answer of the ran comes along rakov ketki and rakov and the OV ask a question which is very befitting of his personal character and that is he says I don't get the raman's question to begin with I don't understand what's troubling R you want to know how could yob marry two sisters what's the problem with which woman do you woman do you have a problem you have a problem how could he marry Leia what's wrong with marrying Leia Leia was a Jewish lady you're allow to get married doesn't say anywhere in the T you can't get married what's wrong with marrying Leia oh you want to know how he can marry ra I'll tell you how he can marry raal cuz he told her he would marry her they had a ver he said he promised her he would marry her you want to know how he can marry Rael cuz he said he would marry her there's a concept in the Torah maybe not everyone's familiar with this concept that if you say you're going to do something you're obligated to do it if you say to somebody I will do this I will call you I will meet you I will then you're you're morally ethically biblically responsible to do it so you know how yob can marry two sisters Leo he married and Rael he said he was going to marry they had a v they're engaged yeah but keeps the whole Torah before it was given that's a and many people don't know thatas don't interfere with Biblical obligation you don't have to keep the H tar before it was given y wanted to it's an extra stringent practice you don't let extra stringent practices interfere with fundamental obligations he told her he was going to marry her um so therefore says says ketki I don't get what's troubling the raob was to marry to he married and he said he was going to marry they had a v you can't break a v once you're engaged you can't break an engagement you're not allowed to break an engagement in Europe and then we're going to get to that and therefore rakov ketki revolutionizes Ran's question ROV Kami says never was ran bothered how could yakob marry two sisters what the ran was bothered by not a question on yob a question on Hashem question ask question on hasem ran is bothered since jakob's personal commitment was to keep the and likes to honor the commitments of of the why would hasem put yob in a situation where you would have to violate his commitment to keep the tah why would Hashem put yob in that compromised situation that now yob can't keep his being the before it was given to which the ra answers that never compromised jakob's commitment because he was never married to two sisters in only in but never was ran ever bothered by the how could yov marry two sisters he married Leia because he married her and he married Rael because they were engaged and that brings us to the topic today of whether it is permitted to break an engagement oh that's it does an engagement have H binding status well so you say maybe in the olden days when at the engagement or at the V or you know here we live in kugar Hills and the bukharians what do they call the V and after the birth they have what they have a different kind of you remember what does that mean what the girl gives out sugar they give out sugar but that's the engagement that's the V is it is it Hally bind say oh back in the day when they used to make T at the they used to write formal agreements that the's going to give the kala 100 chickens and 200 sheep and fur coats and she's going to give him you know rubles and diamonds and so forth so there's a formal uh Financial agreement so that's legally binding but nowadays what happens at a v nothing happens at a V all you have to do is you have to go to Bar Park you have to buy that cake with the cream in it for $80 and that's a wor that's the only thing that you have to do at a right no there's no other or legal transactions taking place at a v so does the V today does the does the engagement have any standing that's the question and do have standing okay that's what we want to discuss today now first let's talk about the word where the is what does the word mean you know if You' go outside of Main Street and take a poll what does the word mean before you know but what does the word mean what does the word mean so most people would say if You' ask them what language is the word 99 100 people would say is no is an aric word the says in those who join together are called the word comes from the word the Aramaic translation of the land was at rest the land was at rest so the word means rest now anyone who's ever been through the process of might be thinking sh is anything but anything but so maybe it means once you finalize once you complete it then it's I'll let you debate that but that's the meaning of the says the word means but interestingly the has a different translation of the word the on the in his lexicon on the word sh he says the word comes from the word now literally means intertwined you can have two Vine branches that are intertwined it's a way of saying you have two disparate individuals that coming from different backgrounds and now they're right but it could also mean could mean confusing yeah a little foggy so both could be true the time of shim is a time of confusion a time ofb but it's also what one is hoping for is a the time of but what we're going to discuss today is do does an engagement have a legal binding status is a v is an engagement is a does it have status so the first thing you have to know is it's brought down in the which is like the uh the on K and he brings down and this is the of really all the it's forbidden to break an engagement one party cannot break an engagement it's not permitted we have to see why why not what's the reason for that you might be thinking why can't you break there are no uh formal Arrangements being made there's no document being signed and if anything this could be called as what's let's say you know let's say there's no Financial Arrangements given but the commits himself he says don't don't worry I didn't give you the ring tonight I'll give you the ring and she says to him don't worry I'll give you the cuings but is that is that a formal Arrangement is that binding that's called as what's as as is when you when you commit to do something but on condition that such and such is met if the conditions are not met or if you don't if you don't know for sure the conditions are met you're not go in your mind you don't have full uh acquiescence to really give over the thing for for instance there's a whole question if somebody uh is playing a game of um a money game where they say a card game and they're going to be uh they're hoping to win the game so let's say you know nobody should play it but certain card games where people put money down if you lose the money the other person gets the money it's a question whether he could keep the money what do you mean but but you gave it to him that those were the rules of the game that whoever wins the game takes the money but since every party in the game is thinking they're going to win so in their mind they're not really giving over the money because in their mind they think they're going to get the money so to the people are committing the financial gifts thinking that the arrangement will work out but if the arrangement doesn't work out then it shouldn't be binding it's they're assuming things will work out in other words when the two parties commit to make a wedding together to give gifts to each other they're assuming the arrangement will work out but if the arrangement doesn't work out it should not be binding it's called so why would it be prohibited to break an engagement well so this is the first thing you need to know gives the landmark rationale um for why it is prohibited to break an engagement what's the reason says the reason says why an engagement cannot be broken is because once everybody knows about the engagement everybody knows the couple had the everybody knows the couple had the V everybody knows they got engaged they put it on that thing on the computer what's that thing you posted on only s only Sim so everybody has to know everybody's business so now now everybody knows everybody's business so if they reneg on the arrangement it's embarrassing it's shameful so says in a situation where reneging on a Financial commitment brings embarrassment it's not even though normally these situation you have a commitment to each other because it's embarrassing all your friends know about it all the r know about it the word has gone out it's public knowledge everybody thinks the guy the guy it's GNA be embarrassing for the guy he's gonna get called up for and he's going to turn white cuzz right or everybody people are going to be going over to her giving her gifts and what you going it's embarrassing for both so for any to break the engagement it's a why even though normally as in a situation of embarrassment why what do you want to say not allow to embarrass somebody to embarrass somebody you don't need you're to cause somebody to be to be embarrassed answer is St yeah but but if one party feel this is not going to be a good so they're not actively embarrassing the person they're they're they're reneging and because of that it's going to cause shame it sounds like that is not enough of a reason to say you can't reeg it's the it causes the commitment to be binding it causes a financial arrangement to re binding that's the Ty of Sara in other it's not you getting up and shol and saying you know that person they're they're they're terrible they're and you're you're not actively you're backing off and as a result the person is suffering shame sounds like that maybe it wouldn't be but nevertheless it would not it doesn't make it binding what makes it binding is The Bu makes the financial Arrangements B that's what say she was ready to go into the fire you not okay okay I hear that's that's a s of now the the rest of today's sh is not for a general audience but some of the cases that we're going to learn about right we we'll have to use the ression we'll put a rating on the but all these cases are are from the classic sh some of them are quite uh interesting we begin with number seven on who was ni in the year 1546 he was a tal of ta taik was one of the contemporaries of someone who was eligible possibly to be the one to write the writes about him that we accept his words on the same level as the rambam himself he talks about an amazing case ready for the story there's a man by the name ofu Ru had a daughter Leia Ruan looking for a a son-in-law for uh for himself he's looking for a husband for Leia and he finds a terrific guy and they get engaged they had a they had a they had engagement party everything all the various Wast of times they did everything and what happened was Ruan had another daughter named Rael Rael was married to Ley Ley was a great guy Ley was the best husband in the world Ley dropped that now Rael ra ra dropped it ra dropped that yeah oh boy Le was RA dropped that you're right ra dropped that and then Ley is a good son-in-law good guy he's an Alman he's looking for a wife so ruin says to himself instead of me giving over Lea to Shimon who knows what Shimon is he looks like a good guy but you know he doesn't have a track record let me give him to my first son-in-law Ley Ley proved to be a good husband to to Rael M would be a good husband to Leia so the father wants to break the between sh and Leia and give over Leia to his first son-in-law his first sonin-law Le what no they weren't they weren't married they were just engaged they just had a v that's it they ordered the cake from Bar Park that's all they did they had a v but they weren't married they weren't married now Shimon said no way we're engaged Leia said no way I like Shimon shim sh's my man she's my my future husband she doesn't want to go she doesn't want to go along with it what happens what happens is the father ruen doesn't want to hear anything about uh Leia living with shim so he demands that they break off the engagement so what does he do he takes all the gifts that Shimon gave to Leah and he throws a back in his face what does Shimon do shim takes all the gifts that the sh gave him he throws it back in the and all bets are off but Leia says I don't want to marry you Ley Ley is is a brother-in-law I don't I'm not interested in him he's already uh an Al guy Al now I want to marry shim I want to marry shim so what does she do she moves in with shim she lives with shim and Mar each without being married they moving together and the um father wants to get the r involved what a man the shim is he's living with without Kad and it gets a whole thing and um the RAB say look he was engaged to her now they're living together it's inevitable just let it happen you know let it happen so he says fine but I'll let it happen on one condition I'll give my daughter Leia to Shem in in in provided that we do it she needs to move back into my house and then I'll deliver her into into shimon's house like a mench we'll do it like the K she said I'm not moving back into my father's house after he tried to you know uh to undermine my marriage to shim he tried to he tried to intercept it and U she doesn't want to move back in and the question came to the rim who's right is ruin right is Shimon right what should be done in this case is a true story true story true story says the mahaj who's right Ru is an avaran Ru is a Russia why because once he committed himself to give over his daughter Leia to shim he cannot break the sh you cannot break an engagement once a father commits his daughter and they have a formal e a formal agreement to get engaged it may not be broken under any circumstance I you think he's a no that's what's going to happen that's what if you don't let it happen that's what's going to happen and I says what kind of formal Arrangement just because he committed himself financially but it's an so thees in the last paragraph and the says like this he says we know we all know how much the value the Dignity of a person we know that to the point where we say even though that is different because of the factor therefore in this case it's an that rued to and Ru needs to give over his daughter Leia to sh okay another story yeah in a case like that wouldn't the the fact that uh she moved today were living together that wouldn't be considered a marriage they didn't they didn't do kadan what they didn't do kadan in such case that's a that's a sh whether you know whether it's not it's not mean no they weren't they weren't getting married they weren't getting married what that was their intention they were they were going to eventually get married but they weren't uh they weren't there yet it would seem in a case like this that was that was their intention of moving into no no they they didn't no they were they were you they were observant Jews they didn't have they wanted to do in the meantime this was a way of protest what their father did that wasn't the circumstance and presume I presume that she went to M before I wasn't there I don't know no okay doesn't say I don't know we'll talk about these type of situations number eight number eight you have a young girl she's an orphan she doesn't have a father and she was engaged to a bak and after the engagement all of a sudden hey B you look like a strong guy you're coming to the Army so the K says to him when are you coming back he said seven years that's the way it was seven years so the mother said get out of here adio samigo I have to marry off my daughter to somebody else I don't have a husband I can't continue to pay for her in the house anymore I can't buy her things anymore I need a husband to take care of her I'm going to marry off to somebody else can a mother be she had a v she had the she had could the mother be in a situation where the guy ain't coming back for seven years says who wants to be over here the mother I didn't know the mother-in-law is marrying the guy interesting no it's the girl who's marrying the guy if she wants to go through with it then she's to go through with it and quotes a very frightening um Nuance to this whole sugya of why engagement is binding so far we saw a few different s kamki says why is an engagement binding because you said you're going to marry the person the T says because of the embarrassment Factor says the reason why it's binding is because of the famous story of the and the bar this story is quoted by at least three and the the had some interesting details there's a story like this there was a woman she was thirsty she was looking for some water and she sees a pit of water and she goes down she bends down to fetch some water from the well and she falls into the well and she's screaming for help help help save me save me and a young man passes by and he says what's the problem what's the problem you I'm about to drown so so uh he says well if I save you what will you give me she said and they agreed that if he would save her he would marry her she would not marry anybody else and he would not marry anybody else so he saves her and they both come out of the pit and she says well who's going to be the witness that to this deal that we made between ourselves so there was nobody around except for the pit and a weasel that was passing by so they said let the pit and the weasel be the witness okay and many years passed and he kept his end of the deal she kept her end of the deal but as these things go she kept her end of the deal more than he kept his end of the de and after time passed he forgot about it and he married another lady and they had two kids he weasel out he weasel out of very good good work but then listen to what happened the first kid was bit by a weasel and was killed and the second kid fell into a pit and drowned and the wife said what's going on here he she she turned to her husband this is M two children to I like this what happened what did you do wrong and he told her the old story that he had committed to marry someone else and the Witnesses were the weasel on the pit and she said well then I'm not and he divorced her and he found her and according to the the details were he went to find her meanwhile she was keeping her end of the deal so anytime there was a perspective that came her way she acted like she was epileptic and also a hiker as well she she had alas right so and the guy come the guy cames to the the guy comes to the door and she comes to the door like a like a and he said you know who I am she said I don't care who you are and he said I'm I'm the I'm the I'm the weasel I'm the old guy who committ to marri and they got married and they lived happily ever after says the look how much Faith look how powerful faith is that if someone puts their faith in a pit and a weasel the pit and the weasel will come through for them all the more so someone who puts their faith in theam the will come through for them what do we see from here that if you give somebody your word and you tell them I will do so and so you cannot break it no matter what and the consequences are very severe so if a boy tells a girl and a girl tells a boy and they agree to get married with even well we'll see whether yes or no but once there's some type of formal agreement to get married you we cannot break an honest agreement under any circumstance says AB if the girl is willing to wait seven years and that's something which is debatable she may not be obligated to wait seven years but if she's willing to wait seven years the mother cannot break the commitment to this boy that's what AB pasin now okay so you'll say you can't break it you gave the word it's embarrassing the the the pit and the weasel but what happens if you break it I mean it's free country you're not supposed to but is there any penalty what we're gonna learn is there's a of the not to break an engagement the same way there's something called what's is that no you can't marry two wives so somebody says you know what it's not for me I don't I don't hold it that told of that anyone who violates well by the same token the put on somebody who violates this prohibition of breaking brings down in you need a lot of what we're going to learn is what do you need more to break to marry two wives or to break an engagement to marry two wives you need to break in engage we need wowow even today we'll see we'll see about that so you say he doesn't say I'll show you who says it he just says now again we're not talking where both sides have a mutual agreement we're talking about where one side wants to break the both sides having a mutual agreement may be different excuse me says which made this Tak which we know which made this on an engagement no l than he quotes looking was ra now you should know R the rush writes was the greatest of all the and 150 and it's considered of so it's a pretty serious thing it's not just an is but it also comes with now really in a person's mind should be worse than is an what what carries weight to people when they hear the word everybody knows right but this is It's a and this of the word or is it specifically and more particularly the which is it it's the why breaking word it's in other words let's say somebody says I'll call you in an hour and they don't call an hour they're not in they broke their word but it's this type of agreement a word to get married is a serious thing and and again because of the embarrassment Factor because of the you put you sort of put good faith in the other person so for all these factors they put a on it um now what if now here's the the question question is again we just to summarize it's brought down in in the modern day in it brings down this that they put and the question is what about baz what about baz because as we know it used to be in the olden days when when a was made they wrote T they wrote official Financial agreements nowadays we write it at the wedding didn't I'm talking about by by us over here by the way by us the tan we write at the wedding is meaningless what it's meaningless meaningless it is meaningless it's meaningless it has no meaning mean it's just a formality yes just another it's or another way of saying it is you know what ano means means nothing it means nothing so either meaningless or means nothing right so that's what says either way it doesn't mean anything it would mean something if you wrote it at the at the wedding it doesn't mean anything theha says not my but so why is it done if that's the case it's done why is it done it's a tradition whatever it is but but uh so question is if Bish you could say if there's and one of the reasons why Raa didn't want there to be T is because it it once he have t it makes it much more formalized but what nowadays where most people in our neighborhoods do not make the T at the V is the V standing does it have alic significance in other words without a can one break engagement comes a landmark he says okay here's sh's like this you have a guy he's looking to get married and he sees his friend going out with a girl once twice and he says you know what she's my Bard I like her could she could he come in and so to speak steal steal the girl inter could he inter could he intercept or do we call it right or is it called what's where if you know somebody's a customer of another person and they're already involved to S to some extent in dealing with each other for you to come and let's say you know figure out get you know cut off their telephone connection and and say yeah the boss asked me uh he can't take the order right now he said you should order for me today it's you're you're undermining someone else's business so if somebody if you know somebody else is going out with a girl could you somehow try to intercept and get involved get involved so says like this could somebody else try to get involved with her or is it he says like this as if they went out one time you could go for it if they went out two times you could get involved they went out a thousand times you can get that might not be nice but Hally it's not a problem but once they have a between them to finish to seal the deal then if it's a to make a k or to make a so in a community where they make a or they make a Kenyon if they didn't make the T they don't make the Kenyon yet then there's a Shila if they made the Kenyon they made the or in a that there's no a to make a what do they do they just have a v in a community where they don't make once there's a v it's to break if you try to intercede he says that which we write says once the two parties come together in a house and they eat that creamy cake from Bar Park then is if they break if one party wants to break it it's and they violated the but there's no there no there's no keny nobody picked up a pen or a g there's no that is and already the and and that's it's a very frightening thing um so now the question is are there any circumstances and by the way said this whole topic should be only academic all of the that we're involved in should only be should be without any pick book and it should be this is just to know the inan are there any circumstances where maybe one side could back out so first of all what if the became Mak no in other words like this not that he was always M if the guy was always a bum so she knew what she was getting into or she should have known but he became AAL what's an example he became AAL he uh he be he started gambling and that's that's his livelihood it depends there's enough mean between and even occasionally cannot gamble by it's only on a steady way it's a separate and really whether you become uh whether Apostles you whether it's even or only are much more yeah it's right even once by far by far they can ever do it yeah I believe so that's where based on I'm not getting into that right now the M says in two places that if the becames becomes Mak then that is caused for the girl to break off the and and vice versa if she so if he becomes a bum she could break the if she becomes a B I don't know where he go then uh then she could uh he could break it then he could break it okay fine so now that we're on the topic of the becoming M I'm going to tell you a fascinating shil again like we said this is not for a general audience but this is an amazing case very uh interesting case graphic case that's brought this a Chua from his son the son of nuda brings a case where the kala said that uh she wants to break off the deal why CU became a bum how do we know he became a bum but he's learning in in K every day he became a he tried to be the kala says the tried to rape her they brought the Sha to the says she says he tried to be could she break off the sh just based on that he says no he no she can't why not says first of all she didn't say he did it she said he tried to do it she stopped him but at the end of the day he didn't do it he would have done maybe if she wouldn't have stopped him at the last moment he would have done chuva and he wouldn't have done it we say come on I mean he he tried to do it and she and she f with him says the son just because he wanted to do it he says even though you say it's not that he stopped himself she stopped him says the we don't know what would have happened maybe at the last moment he would have seen and he would have done it but meanwhile she lost her trust in him number two number two he's a k youngite m all his learning it would have stopped him in the last moment may maybe maybe he's a rapist number three but but he's he's obviously he's not a good guy because why was he be with his [Applause] why why she's so right it would be says the son does that make him a not everybody knows this unfortunately there many people are on so even if it's if it's not welln it's not widespread there people are over it doesn't necessarily render the guy makoko and and number four says the son of the nuda even if he would have done it he only did it once makoko is somebody who violates something repetitively just because once he says what do you think is going to happen why do you think and finally says sonud who said he tried to do it who said he she said she it's we don't believe a word she said he has and she's not beli so she's not allowed to break the but she doesn't want him you can tell no she wants him she doesn't want she didn't want if she didn't want him she might have said a different story she would have she would have made it better she would have said he did it many times it's not that's that's the tra that's a Chua what about the girl expects to marry the and you know they told told him this guy's he's the best guy in Lakewood is a bigger lamb than Shas and it comes out he comes the Z he opens up the gar upside down he doesn't even know from all bets are off he could break the up especially the whole Arrangement was based on the financial Arrangement why do they want to give the money they want they want to get something and it's it's the say says in if somebody somebody makes efforts to become a it's very likely they will be and the fact that this guy didn't it's like a rear a rear Mo that that was unexpected and this is this might be different what about here by the way number 21 you have a whole long laundry list of situations and cases where certain circumstances may come up and now the question is is that enough a reason to break the show let's say the question is they told the that the girl was 26 years old and turns out she's 78 what so that case you probably could break buter talks about a case where they told him that she was 26 and she's [Laughter] 39 so um so that's the situation or another situation was uh the girl was coming uh she was wearing a mask turn that she took off the mask and the the length of the AF was a little bit longer than he anticipated so these are all situations and circumstances that are discussed in theim okay however even in situations where maybe it's m to break it off some place still say it shouldn't be done shouldn't be done and then he brings down you should refrain from doing so unless there's a that maybe things won't work out it won't be B but there is a a certain uh Maxim that they say in the velt there's an expression they say in the the following it's means better to tear up better to tear up a get than to tear up the which means better to get engaged get married and if get is necessary to give a get than to break up the tan better to have a divorce even than to break up a and the reason is like we said because there's a there's a against breaking a there's a the there's such a so in fact I know that uh even even they they uh follow this that they will advise who after the engagement are maybe they say maybe better to have a get than to have a broken engagement again this is not everyone should ask their own uh competent um very competent place a problem that she can get married to a coin if she's a gusa if she's not a GHA then she still can get married to a coin what can you do give her the opportunity there's a can't break the can't break the she AG though oh now if both par agree if both parties agree to um mutually break the to break the engagement then um you do not then there's no however the Min is to to try to attain a document that says that both sides um are each other of any of the financial uh commitments and any of the they may have caused each other the the precise is unclear it doesn't really say in any of the what the precise is in the he brings down that regarding the right I don't know of any specific terminology in the where he brings down all the of all the different he doesn't bring he doesn't bring the it's not brought down and therefore theber writes that any RV could write any language that he want just to um annunciate the idea that each party is is the other party for any finan okay so that's the that's the situation if both parties agree to break off the but even so we said that if possible even when both parties agree Roy better not now what do you do with all the gifts all the gifts that were given in a situation where the gave the kala gifts the gave the Kal family gifts vice versa so the everything is returned everything has to be uh returned to respective parties um what if they spend money on perishables that's about that but these are all issues that come up yeah they a big deal name what Racing's name in a get not in the get I'm sorry in the name okay okay so I'm just trying to parallel here I I don't understand that the breaking of a could be could be worse then than than creating a situation where two people are now divorced instead of have never been having being married I hear it's a very sensitive and difficult topic uh but there is I guess one vantage point is that there's no there's no against having the get as opposed to the the uh The Binding of the T and The Binding of the V which is a and there's no real creation of how to uh how to seever it there is no there's no way to disconnect it so better to go through it I mean that's one way of looking it's better to go through it and then and then break it then to break it out of stage again I'm not saying this is and should be done in all cases but that's that's the logic of it that's the logic of it um he brings down number 24 in the he brings in the name of the sh that people are very afraid to break such a thing even where it's and he says especially I know okay so let us I want to end with really a mindboggling incident a historical incident we have on the uh on the bottom the back of your sheets the back of your booklet meet Benet Mor Benet was the acclaimed godar he lived from 1753 to 1829 he was the godar in Moravia for many many years and and um at the age of 60 years old R Benet began to suffer various ailments until uh the doctors finally told told him you know in the olden days they didn't believe in medicine all they believed in is that if anybody had any troubles what do you do you go to the spa so they used to go to car's B Maran B and they used to bathe in the Mineral Springs in the waters and they ordered was ordered to go to Carl's and he came to kbad in t of the Year 1829 and he comes to kbad and he starts to drink the Waters of kbad and he says the waters in kbad were so toxic so disgusting they entered my body they caused me terrible cramps it it started to weaken his his body weaken his abdomen weakened his AR arteries and ligaments and finally 17 days later the godar passed away on a Wednesday 1829 and he's in car's bad where are they going to bury him so they want to bring him to the nearest Jewish City and they bring him to the city of of lamid shin what's the city of laminat liat and they bring him to liat and as they're burying him in his son naali who is one of the great God of well his son says I want everyone to know we're just burying here here him here in lad temporarily but ultimately we're going to take him to we're going to bring him to nin n to nikolsburg where he was the r of nikolsburg the of nikolsburg he was the T of nickelsburg and in fact his whole life he was always heard saying that he always wanted to be buried next to his re Nichols in fact his wife um the wife of M Benet was uh he she used to DAV that she should die before him so that he could say kades for her he could outlive her and say Kadesh for her and he would she asked him one time she said when I die could you bury me right here next to Nichol and he said no way over my dead body I'm going to be buried next to nberg and you're going to be buried next to my feet that's what he told him so rali when he buried his father he said very clearly that um he said that we're only burying Our Father here temporarily we're going to uproot him and move him back to Lon uh to nickelsburg okay what happened was came a few days later they wanted to um disiner her they wanted to remove his his his remains and bury him in in uh in nickelsburg and the problem was it was illegal cuz in the olden days you couldn't exume bodies you couldn't uh remove remains it was considered very dangerous the bodies uh were considered contaminated in order to remove the remains of somebody who passed away you needed to get a permit so they didn't know what to do they first they went to Vienna to get a permit and in Vienna they did not offer and they did not issue any permit finally they came came to the city of Prague and in Prague they said you want to move a body it's very dangerous to move a body it's toxic to move a body here's the deal you put him in a grave you put him in a coffin and you shmear the coffin with oil and spices and fragrant Aromas and you disinfect it and then you put it in another coffin and then you shmear the outside of that coffin with all kinds of sprays and fragrant Aromas and spices and curas and you burn incense around it and then you put them in a third coffin and for that we give you a permit to to move his remains so they come to remove his remains and sir and they decide that one second the rub of the city of uh of n of excuse me of says remove his remains do you have a heter from any rub to remove his remains who said you could remove his remains maybe it's not M show me show me a that you let her move him after all the entire city of was up in arms that they wanted to move the god they said we were to have the God buried in our midst we were we were right because we say a is kind of so leave him here so the r was very smart and the r said like this if the r would say it's AER to do something nobody would listen the r said but maybe you're incurring the wrath of of Shay you know once you invoke something superstitious oh everybody gets very nervous when you invoke the superstitious so they got nervous so the sons ofet sent the Sha to three of the and that is who do they send the sh number one the son of theud number two RAB ker and number three they sent the Shila to the great and this whole story is um is brought down in the sh you have it on your sheets over here in number 29 where they sent word they sent the shout to is it permitted to remove the remains ofet and move him to uh nickelsburg so and they offered four arguments to the for why it should be number one everybody knows thear talks about that people feel more comfortable being buried together with their ancestors it's more comfortable for a person one time I was driving some old ladies TOA and they were talking about where they wanted to be buried so one of them said they don't like a certain Cemetery it's right by the highway it's too noisy over there and the other one said you know once you're in the ground you don't really you don't really hear it but apparently it's more comfortable to be buried among the family and therefore it's it would be a bigger coved foret first of all benet's mother was buried in nickelsburg number two his wife was buried in nickelsburg his children were buried in nickelsburg he had grandchildren buried in nickelsburg that's where his whole was it would be more comfortable for him plus begin what begin to begin what they had a bar he was the closest stot there's a he died in kbad and they had to take him to to liin that was the closest Mal to bury him now that he's buried now they wanted to move him to uh to to uh nickelsburg okay the second argument he said is his whole life he said he wanted to be buried next to his rebbaa and if that that was the that was the desire of the mess in fact there was a great God there was a great by the name gri Gabriel IIT who testified that he was together with with raet every single night on his deathbed and every night ra Benet says please please please bury me in nickelsburg bury me in nickelsburg bury me in nickelsburg and at the very least bring me to Prague so besides it being more comfortable for him that was also his desire number three they said toer number three they said toer that raali his son who buried him he announced that he's burying him with kavana with the intention to move him eventually and number four who ever heard ofad it's aous City nobody goes there it's surrounded by Mountain nobody ever is going to go to bealo over there you have to take like a camel up some kind of mountain nobody's ever going to get there if he was buried in in nickelsburg people are going to be able to on his K soab say the question was brought toer and and Samer said I don't agree with any of your reasonings I don't agree with any of your rationals I don't agree with that number one you say that every night he asked to be buried next to who's saying that he wanted to be buried next to R Gabriel iish who is this guy R Gabriel iish what city is he from he's from nickelsburg no kidding he's saying that the rebba said he wants to be buried in nickelsburg any body who comes to that city is he doesn't believe him he has no we don't believe him he has no credibility of course he's going to say that his rebi said he wants to be buried in nickelsburg so we can't believe him he's not g he's a bias he he he has a Prejudice in this case we can't accept anything he says we can't believe him number two especially in light of the fact that said that once he passes away any of his that come to be on his he's going to intercede in him on their behalf so of course the whole city would want him to Mar be buried in nickelsburg so says but maybe you'll say that they're saying that he said please bury me in nickelsburg and at the very least Prague now to marry him in Prague he's notab they're not aab because they don't live in the city of Prague so you could exume him to bury him in Prague now once you take him out to bury him in Prague then you might as well bring him to nickelsburg says no they would still be in because prag is a lot closer to nickelsburg than is soer says I don't accept that argument says but everybody heard him say that he wants to be buried next to he was obviously on that because if he later said bury me in nickelsburg and if not that at least in Prague that means he had given up hope of being buried next to otherwise he never would have said at least bury me in Prague but says the argument that you're using that rali buried him on condition to move him that's a valid argument and therefore says it would seem to me that you could move and then says but you know what after thinking about it a little bit more maybe it's not such a good idea cuz everybody knows that in many of the Cities there's no more space for burial places anymore and they're creating new cemeteries outside of the city and the and the governors of the city they want to create roads through the old and we always have to fight with them not to not to trample not to be mael in in our and they say what's the problem move them and we say no you can't move a Kev so if now we're going to go ahead and move then you're undermining the whole movement of standing up for so therefore if we're going to move that that's going to because of Z so people are going to say if you move the godar even though he wanted to and he asked to and they he was buried on condition to move him it's going to undermine the whole movement to try to preserve says maybe it's better not to but then after thinking about it a little bit more you know what if you could explain to people that this is a unique circumstance that he was the rub of nickelsburg and they buried him on condition to move him it would seeing that it would be permitted to move him this is a very unusual ch is always definitive in his would write CH if he got a question he would immediately write an answer and send it out said about himself that even if he wrote a and he based it on three garas and you slugged up all three garas all his Ras he would still say the why because he knows he has that he's GNA get the right never wavered and here says it should beer should be m maybe better not to okay do it what's going on over here so I'm going to tell you the most astounding story you ever heard samer's soner writes let me tell you what happened in this case let me tell you what happened was about to you could move and he suddenly fell asleep and he had a dream and who came to him in the dream you got the right you could move my remains but not yet why not cuz you need to know that many many years ago I was engaged to the rabbit sin of lenat and I broke the engagement oh my gosh and I was buried next to her in lad for seven months corresponding to the seven months that I broke the engagement and I caused her and because of that even though I was permitted to break the they're being me seven months to be buried next to her for seven months so so right but don't write the letter yet for seven months until I lay there for seven months next to this rabbitson and then you could issue the to move me the seven months later mailed the CH and they moved the remains of there are different versions of the story one version is he wasn't engaged to her but he pass in to someone else that they could break a and in order to be um in order to be that person he needed to be bu next to her for seven months is not but what we should take out of the she is theight of Yakov ketki that says rakov he's not bothered how Yakov can marri his sisters you know how he can marry ra cuz he said he would do it and if you commit yourself to do something you're absolutely bound to keep your word have a great day you've just experienced another Torah class brought to you by Torah and time.com