Parshas Tazria - Metzora: Rav Shmuel Salant and the Conversion Controversy of 1848

This Torah class is brought to you by Torah anytime.com. Okay, welcome everyone. Thank you everybody for joining us tonight. Um we thank uh all of the live participants to time viewers tonight as all the sherik sponsored by the zakim family. I see someone from the is on the screen. Thank you very much. So anonymously sponsored all the lemas our grandfather tonight shar is sponsored by Dr. Federer in honor of his father's yard site which is today Gabriel Benze and as a aval you should have good health and also sponsored by the Klein family. Okay, that is the share for tonight. No actually that was just the introduction. Okay. Um, welcome everyone. Tonight we have a fantabulous subject, very interesting topic. Um, a controversy that happened about 170 years ago. Very interesting controversy and it's based on the Gumarra that we learned in Yama recently. And here we go. this uh what's the connection to the para in the para we have the mitzvah of so we're going to speak about the role of brisma in establishing someone as a Jew we know in order to convert um when someone is born a Jew all they need is milah but if somebody is a gentile and they want to become a Jew then they need gayos now what is gayos there are three opinions in the morning of Alf going on to me. The first opinion is the opinion of Lazar. Rabazar says you need and that's it. All you need is you do not need R Yeshua on the other hand holds and says where do I learn it out from? I learn it out from they left. They entered into the Jewish fold with and they never went to the mikvah. What mikvah did they go to? They had a mikvah and the midbar. They had a vision mikvah. They had a sat or mikvah in the midvar. What mikvah did they go to? They there was no mikvah. So they had ma. There's no and they were Jews. Rabishu on the other hand says without ma works. Just go to the mikvah. You want to become a Jew? Jump in the mikvah. It's interesting. No all you need to do is jump in the mikvah and you be could you could become Jewish. According to Rabi Rabu says where do we learn this from? The im the mothers. How did they become Jewish? They didn't have a they went to the mikvah. So, so too anybody who jumps in the mikvah becomes Jewish. And this is how we say um if you look in number one on your sheets, you're not a until you circumcise and immerse. Okay? And that's that one is not a G until they go to the mikvah and they until they have circumcision and they go to the mikvah. Good. Excellent. One needs ma and Michael, you have a question or it's just uh Oh, no audio, huh? You can't hear what? You can't hear people. You can't hear. Um, are you you're you can't hear. Could you hear now? Could you hear? Anyone raise your hand if you could hear? No, no one could hear. That's real. Um, Okay, one second. Let's see if we can. Yeah. Um, I don't know. You're not able to hear? No, not at all. Not at all. Um, how about on the the live stream? Try restarting the Zoom. I don't know. Okay, you'll have to come here, I guess. you know read lips or you could just watch you know um sorry so that's the uh that's the uh the gumar's conclusion's conclusion is in order to become a you need mila and you need without mila mila without is not a good gas that is the conclusion of the garra now what order matter um the order yes you have to do mila and then you do okay so the gumar theis has the following shila And this is what this is based on the says that encounters the following someone who's avo that had and did not have cannot eat from the carbon. Okay, that's we have a derives that who is going like if he's going like that then without is a good gay then why in the world can you eat from the car and p you're a full-fledged gar g you're a complete g you're a total g why do why would the pik say you can't eat from the p well because you don't have a law doesn't do anything according to rebel Eli Raba holds like and or like Yeshua that Milo without doesn't work is not a good gayos. So then why do I need a puk that you can't eat from the p you're a complete guy you're you're not even so asks why would need a that someone who has without cannot eat for the p if you hold is necessary so then of course you can't eat from the pes you're a and if you hold is not necessary so then why can't you eat from from the carbon p you're a full-fledged Jew So says really holds like rebuha and ma without is not a gayos. I if ma without is not a gay so then why do I need a pik that you can't eat from the pes of course you can't eat from the pesak you're not Jewish. This is the puk from which you learn out that if you don't have mikvah you're not Jewish. We learned it out from the carbon pes. In other words, from the fact that the Torah says if you have mil without you can't eat from the carbon pes. Yeah. I don't I I don't know why there's no sound from the fact that the um the Pik says that if you have mil without you can't eat from the carbon pes from there we learn out that you're not Jewish unless you have. That's this is the source. But again let's get tous's question clear. Tus's question is we have a by that someone who has a without immers immersing in the mikvah you can't eat from the pes so wants to know according to the that you need to be Jewish so then why do I need a that you can't eat from the p of course you can't eat from the kak and if we hold that milah without fa is a good gayos then why can't you eat from the kam p comes the rajba the rajba is really the uh main source of tonight's sh and the rajba says inf says the rajbah why does say a g that's circumcised and didn't go to the mikvah is not a g until he goes to the mikvah what do you mean of course uh I I don't need a pik that you that uh you can't eat from the kasak you're not Jewish in other words why would rabaka need a pik you can't eat from the kbasak You don't have says the raja tremendous for the rajba asks like this do I need a let's say you had an Arab who had mila without any uh then would I need a puk that he can't eat from the k of of course he can't eat from the kum p he he's not Jewish right so why would the puk be saying excluding someone who has meal without fela someone who has me without is not. So the Rajba says there's a very big difference between a G who has mil without and somebody who is let's say an Arab who has Mila and doesn't have the difference Arab who has mila without he didn't do milah to be a Jew so I don't need a to say that he can't eat from the carbon however someone says a rabb who has ma without so he did ma were for for to be a Jew. So says the Raja the following. He says the rajbah that when someone has mila even without even though he's not fully Jewish yet but he already began the process of entering Judaism so he's slightly Jewish says the rajbah niknas kitasia He's entered a little bit the Jewish fold and all he needs is in other words the raja says the following even though we pass in if somebody does milah without they are not Jewish nevertheless they have entered the fold a little bit they they're quasi Jewish they'reas and all they need is and therefore you would have thought they could eat from the carbon p and therefore I need a p to say they don't eat from the carbon p in other words here's the raj's whopper of the raja comes along and he says that even though we pas that someone who does circumcision and he doesn't do um is not a Jew but he begins to enter the process just a little bit and because of that I would have thought he's allowed to eat from the pes and the puss says no He doesn't eat from the carbon. Okay. So that's the that Mila does something. So based on this we have the following historical account in 1848 in the city of Shallayim on the 23rd day of Adverted to Judaism and he had a ma. The only thing is his mil was not uh healing. His m his mila was not um being cured and he couldn't go to the mikvah. The vama says that if somebody's ma is still raw, you can't go to the mikvah. The mikvah will irritate the uh the wound. So he didn't know what to do. So the natural choice would be to go to salant and to try to uh had to have a shil. what should he do? He can't go to the mikvah. Now it's a so you say okay he'll wait until the wound heals. But the question is what does he do about shabas? Because if he doesn't have he's not Jewish. If he's not Jewish then he has to desecrate the shabas. Should he desecrate the shabas before he goes to the mikvah? So he goes to salant salant was out of town was going fundraising for uh some new initiatives. He uh had to raise money for a new yeshiva that he established in the courtyard of Rabhuda and and he went to Russia to collect money. So who took over salant had a backup rabbi for the weekend. So this Garrett goes to the backup rabbi. He says, "I want I had mila. I didn't have it. It's shabas. I'm not Jewish. do I need to keep the shabas or I or do I need to desecrate the shabas. So he said uh you know you're going to have to desecrate the shabas. You're not Jewish. And he told him after me I want you to take out a pen. You're going to write two letters. You have to be mal shabas. After all shabas is and that's what he did. This this future g was mal shabas. The other rabbis in the area found out about the psaka of Rabmo Salant and of this rabbi who we're going to see his name was Usher Leml and they said you're wrong. You can't tell a potential convert especially a convert who had ma to desecrate the shabas and all the sardic rabbis led by Ravagan disagreed with him and they cried out about this and they said this this potential gar has to keep the shabas. That was the dilemma. So Leml didn't know what to do. And by the way, this story is recorded by a a descendant of salant. I had this when we were by Harim, we visited the cabaros and one of descendants is Tachinsky and Rab records this story and he says was starting to get very nervous because nobody agreed with his that this potential G should be Mal Shabas. So he wrote a letter to two gdylum in the time. First he wrote a letter to salant who was in Warsaw and then he wrote a letter to the chief rabbi of Altona who was the arak of linger and they both wrote to leml I'm sorry to tell you but you're wrong and you made a big mistake. Yeah. This potential garrett is not allowed to be mal shabas. So sort of records what what did this rabbi hold? What did this hold that he told this potential to be shabas? So records the whole story and this lel writes how none of the rabbis agreed with him and they said who ever heard such a thing that if you have a g who is already circumcised and he didn't have yet then you're supposed to tell him to shabas who ever heard such a thing said well you heard it here first please explain to me he says if you want I could tell you a and if you want I could tell you a gar that this g is obligated to be shabus number one he says it's avara the is we like the that you're not a g until you do and which means before you do you're a full-fledged now what does the garra say in says means Ify keeps shabas. By the way, where do we learn out that from? Where do we learn that from? We learn from the day and night. You cannot let it cease. And by the way, the garra says, not only is a not allowed to keep shabas, he's now to keep Monday. For a gentile to rest 24 hours straight from Sunday night to Monday night is an isa says not only for Saturday, for Sunday, for Monday, for Tuesday, any day gentile cannot spend the entire day without um doing. now is a for observing shabas. The says go the raam learns that that's an exaggeration. The ram learns that even though that violates any of the however if he violates shabas bezen will hit the the but bezen will not kill the But at the end of the day, it's an for a a convert for a to keep the shabas. So says, I don't understand. We pass in that is a is a and a is not to keep shabas. So how could anybody in a clear conscience say that this is has to keep the shabas? And what I what I'm saying is absolutely correct. We all know that one major distinction between a g between a and a and a Jew is whether you're allowed to eat an animal that's you know is you the animal and the animals she did but is alive it's still thrashing about can a Jew eat an animal that is and is absolutely yes can a eat an animal no because it's not dead so a is now to eat A Jew is now to eat an animal that's noted. So this animal, but it's alive. So says, do you think that this G who had and didn't have is allowed to eat an animal that's of course not. It would be an is we would kill him, right? A G that did without if he wants to eat an animal that's he would not be allowed to be lenient. We would kill him for eating the animal. So the same way he can't be lenient to eat an animal that that's says he should not be able to be lenient to do what to eat uh to to observe the shabas what they know that he can't he's a he's on his way but we what we still haven't answered the question well we pass in Gem is is a So if he's a the same way it seems like everybody says you can't eat the animal that's you should not be able to observe the shabas. Furthermore, um we find in sh that the garra says that a that has that doesn't have is and the garra even says by the way if you remember that there was a certain guy who the father was a shamal the woman was a Jewish woman and pasin that in rail's opinion a that marries a Jewish woman the children are mam zam We don't pask in that way but that's what Raban said that a that married a Jewish woman is considered um the child's imams. So you see without is so mil without is not anything. How could anybody say that this this should observe shabas? This was the argument of he feels that nobody got it right. He's the only one who saw it clearly and honestly between me and you I would agree with him is very nice he had a very nice he could have had the best in the world whoever you whoever you think that is but he didn't go to the mikvah he didn't go to mikah he's a if he's a can't keep shabas I think I would have agreed with comes from of salant and he says in his opinion raasher lel made a mistake primarily based on the of the Rajba. Listen carefully. The Rajbah wanted to know the says that a cannot eat the carbon says. Who is the excluding when it says says it's excluding someone who has milah without you here that it's coming to exclude someone who has mil without now the raja asks why would I need a to exclude someone who has ma without but someone who has me without is not Jewish I don't need a to exclude them the raj is madesh even though they need but the raja says they already began and entered the Jewish religion that all they need is so the raj was that once a person has without you would have thought they could eat from the carbon and I need a that says they can't eat from the carbon says that means you would have thought mila without renders you capable to eat and I have a p that says in fact you can't but do I have a that says that if you have milo without fo you can't keep shabas the same way I would have thought if you have milo without fel you could have eaten from the p I also would have thought if you have milo without fa you could keep shabas and I happen to have a puk that no if you have mil without fela you can't eat from the current p but I don't have a that if you have milo without fa you can't keep shabas. So the havina that I would have had by carbon p and is only uprooted because I have a that you don't bring the carbon without we would apply to shabas that ma without you could keep the shabas based on the rajbah you hear of salant's argument is saying the rajba learns that the reason I needed a pok by pes is cuz I would have thought that Since ma that since ma is um makes you enter the Jewish fold to some extent I would have thought you could eat from the pes so by the same token maybe I would have thought you could keep shabas if you have meal without fel and the only reason if you have meal without fel you can't eat from the pes is because I have of but I don't have by shabas so that means I would have thought you could keep shabas with mila and I have no pik that's saying you can't keep shabas by by someone who has mil without va and therefore says leml was incorrect in passing that this g has to desecrate the shabas then the rajbah then salant offers another reason why this partial convert should have kept shabas says what is the status of someone who has mila without and then he wants to retract like this. Here you have a guy his name is uh Jim. So we give Jim a ma he's not yet ready to go to the mikvah. Then Jim says, "Ah, you know what? Tell me some of the." So we tell him, "Hey pal, you know, you can't talk by." He says, "Really? You're telling me I can't become a Jew if I talk about?" Say, "Yeah." Said, "No, no thanks." Let's say he wants to retract. Could he retract or he's a Jew? He's allowed to retract. He could retract because he's not Jewish yet. He only had me. He didn't have says of you know what he's like let's say you say to a woman hey lady I'm marrying you in 30 days and the guy's thinking let me see if she knows how to make chant or not and then he has her chant the first week it tastes like uh you know tastes like rotten applesauce on a good day he says let me give her one more shot it's horrendous it's terrible Does he need a get or could he say uh hey lady you know see you later I uh this this ain't going to work out there there's no commitment he said I'm going to marry you in 30 days. So the same way if you tell a woman I'm going to marry you in 30 days you could retract without a get. If someone does ma without they could retract on the gayos and they were never a Jew and what if they decide you know what I do want to become a Jew I won't talk by fine they have to go through the gar again I they had mil they have to do so in other words says what's going to happen if somebody sees this g who had mila without and then the rabbi He says, "Uh, by the way, you this shabas and you didn't have yet. You got to desecrate the shabas." People are going to think he desecrated the shabas. And then on Tuesday, he went to the mikvah and he didn't have a he didn't have a hatris. So people are going to think that if you retract on a gay, all you need to do is go to the mikvah and you don't have to do the mil again. And that's not true. You do have to do the ma again. Now, this guy really doesn't have to do the the meal again. Why? Because we told him to desecrate the Shabas since he doesn't have. But people are not going to know that. And since people are not going to know that, they're going to think mistakenly that the is that if someone who has without and then desecrates the shabas, then if they want to become a Jew, they could just uh go to the mikvah and they don't have to do again. And since there's so many areas of where because we're concerned of what people are going to think we uh we change the accordingly and therefore says in this case of a guy who has ma without and then we doesn't know what to do on shabas heaven forbid to tell him to desecrate the shabas number one because of the of the raja that ma without fela enters you into the fold of Judaism to a certain extent at least to be able to keep the Shabas. And number two, if you're going to desecrate the Shabas, it looks like you're retracting on the gross. And if you're retracting on the gross, then you can't just go to the mikvah after. You're going to have to have bris. And even though this guy is not really retracting, he's just listening to our advice because we're telling him to desecrate the Shabas because he didn't have yet. But people are not going to know that. And therefore, for these two reasons, Paskin that we are required to tell this uh prospective uh g that he's obligated to keep the shahus. By the way in the salant he brings that this question happened again. It repeated itself about 30 years later where uh two arm came um in front of the bezdon of the and they did not to they were in toal and their ma did not heal yet and they wanted to know what should we do are we allowed to keep the shabas or do we have to desecrate the shabas and salam said by the way I remember basically this story happened 30 years ago and raasher lemo hold the g to desecrate the shabas and he was wrong that is you have to keep the shabas for the following two reasons number one the rajbah namely once you have mila you enter the fold of Judaism to some extent and therefore you have to at least keep the shabas and number two because if you're going to desecrate the shabas it looks like you're retracting on the gross and if you retract on the gaos you would have to do again and then the salant makes the following If someone who had milo without there's a p that says he can't eat from the car. Let's say I wouldn't have a p that he can't eat from the car. I would think he could. Now what's the punishment of someone who's not Jewish and eats from the and even so this person who has without I would have thought he's supposed to eat from the even though he's tampering with something very serious potentially but we say no you had mil that renders you enough of a Jew that you need to eat the pes had it not been for a so says if I even would have thought you could eat the pes which has a of because you have ma certainly you should be able to keep the shabas which does not have such a severe punishment for someone who is not Jewish for keeping the shabas as we said the ram says someone who keeps the shabas inappropriately is not so if you would even eat a pes Withoutah certainly you should keep the shabas. That was the of salant both in 1848 and in 1878. How would allow people in in the midbar if all they had was me? Good point. You want to say we should be able to prove that you don't need for because the Jews in the midbar they did not have when they ate the okay we're going to that's a a very important point we're going to come to the chuva of the and the makes a similar point please take a look at number five this shila was brought to the shila such binyan The shout to bin is Rabakov Etinger. Ravak Eninger was the rabbi in Altona and he received a letter from Asher Leml and Rasher Leml said look I really feel that since this convert does not have he's a and therefore he shouldn't be allowed to keep shabas and uh the says look I heard that nobody wanted to be mabsak nobody wanted to accept ypsac so I did a little research and what I discovered was there is no in the world that if a G did Mila and did not do the Bezen is going to tell the prospective G, hey, you need to desecrate the Shabas. There's no such thing. It never happened. There's no court in the world that tells the G that didn't go to the mikvah, he needs to desecrate the Shabas, says the I'm not sure what the source is. It could just be avara. And here's the Svara. We know that when somebody um gets a circumcision, it's called a bris. What does a bris mean, Azrael? Circumcision. What does a bris mean? What does the word bris mean? Covenant. A treaty. When someone has a brisma, they have a covenant with God. In fact, the garra says in Shabas when a has a you make a habris. Well, shabas is also a bris between us and God. Does it make any sense to say that a convert who has ma and enters one covenant with God should then be obligated to break and enul the other covenant of chabas. That doesn't make any sense. It's just counterintuitive. Once you're entering the covenant, you should have to keep the covenant. What's the s of? Oh, you're getting the maha. So, oh, the first thing you need to do when you get the milah is break shabas. That doesn't make any sense. If you're entering the fold, you're entering the fold. If you're des if you're not enter, you're not entering the fold. Sometimes you need to just use a little straight thinking, a little common sense. Says, it is not that when somebody enters the covenant of ma, they should have to break the covenant of shabas. That's just not logical. Furthermore says the what uh says says the following very good. He says in my opinion says I would answer Tyus's question different than Tyus based on Tyus wanted to know why do I need a Pak to say that someone who has without is the Pak why would I think he eats the carbon pak he's a full-fledged guy says I'll tell you why I would have thought he eats the carbon pak Because even though regarding every other mitzvah in the Torah, he's a full-fledged guy. All you need is where do we see that for all you need is the Jews in the first carbon they ever ate they had. They didn't have. So you see that in order to eat a car, all you need is so have a very simple answer to's question. Tus wants to know why do I need a puk that if someone has me without you can't eat from the car and pesak but he's a guy why would you think you could you know what I would think you could because the Jews in the desert in the wilderness of Sinai the Israelites partook of the Pascal offering with just circumcision and without immersion so you think that when it comes to kan pas all you need is mil without fa that's why I need a puk but then it comes out that I have a special puk that if someone just has mil without they can't eat from the but I don't have a special that if someone who has without they can't keep shabas and here's the whopper of the night the first whopper the second whopper we'll see if we could get mendy to hear men will be very happy after he hears this the first whopper is like this when did the Jews get shab shabas when did the Israelites they were Right. They're commanded in before the Jews got shab before they got the Tyra. Now, historically, when did the Jews circumcise? The night of mim. When did they go to the mikvahi? So, when did they get shabas? Mara. Mara. So okay, we have a tradition they kept shabas in uh in in mim but they were given shabas and mara at that point they had ma without says. So we should learn out from there that even though for Pak we have a Puk if you have Milo without fa you can't eat from the Pak but I have the greatest precedent in the world that if you have mil without you could keep Shabas namely the Jews were given Shabas at Mara even though they didn't go to the mikvah. So you want to know um uh Rabmo you're telling me that this potential G must desecrate Shabas because he is Milo without fel and he's a I will tell you that Shabas is different than any other mitzvah. All the other mitzvah he needed to be a full-fledged Jew and go to the mikvah to be Mahim but not Shabas. Well why would Shabas be different? Because historically shabas was given to the Jewish people when they only had mil and they didn't have and mara and therefore says the why would that be let's think for a moment why would it be that to be a full-fledged gar you need mikvah but for shabas all you need is ma he would say either it's that regarding shabas you're no longer a once you have milah or The two covenants go together. Once you are enter the covenant, namely bris, you need to keep the covenant shabus. And therefore, the says you're a great rabbi, but when it came to this issue, you made a mistake. You should not have told the to desecrate Shabas. Either since we see from Morad that the Jews were commanded on Shabas when they just had Mila. So it comes out Shabas is dependent on Mila and not Vah. Now I'm going to share with you my favorite azer one of my favorite marco I ever came across. I saw this 17 years ago and I never had an opportunity to say it in a shir. It just never came about. When I first started giving shirim so I used to give one she a year. It took me a whole year to prepare the shir and then uh started you know getting the process down a little bit. But I remember I saw this a very long time ago and there's an incredible abner says almost exactly like the or that it would seem that from the fact that the Jews in the Jews were given Shabas at Mara even though they had Mila and not that Shabas is dependent on Mila and it's uh is not necessary but says but maybe you'll ask that was an aberration that was different. You can't learn from the Jews in the desert. I'll bring you a says the even when the Jews ate the first carbon pilar says they didn't have milah until later that night. So why don't we learn out from there that you don't need anything to eat? It must be it was a and you can't learn out from the Jews in the desert. So maybe don't say well they were given shabas at mara so maybe all you need is mil and anyway if they were given if all you need for a shabas is ma so then why didn't god in Egypt give the Jewish people shabas as soon as they did the milah so the says a mindbggling thing says if you look in the zadesh we know there are two parts of ma there's a circumcision you cut the foreskin then you take the force skin and you pull it back and you uncover the corona that's pura says who does that Jewish people do that the Israelites you know and and the descendants of we do that Jews everywhere observant Jews do mila and priya mila the Jews did in Egypt when were we given priya says priya were given at mara at the very same time we were given chabas says that according to the zaha It comes out so compelling that shabas is different than all other mitzvah in the all other mitzvah in the you need mil and but shabas clearly is utterly dependent on milah because you're we so you say why weren't we given chabas in mitim because we didn't have the whole mitzvah of milit we only had mila but the prio wasn't given until mara as soon as we got the prio we got chabas so says the according to the zy it comes out shabas is not dependent on being Jewish. Shabas is dependent on why either like the said either it's or because the two covenants go together. But according to the it is so compelling the dependency of Shabas on because according to the they didn't have Priya in they had Priya at Mara and at the very same moment Hashem gave us Shabas says. So why didn't any of the rishim not to not the rajba learn the yamis that even though you need mil and to be a Jew but forbes and shabis you don't need you only need mil says you know why nobody thought of myhat because never saw the zakad and the rajbah never saw the zhakad others. You say, "How could that be?" The zoyar was written by the rashi and probably by much later am as well. Yeah. But we know that historically the zy was not revealed until after the times of the rishim and times of the early theim did not have the zoar. So since they didn't have the zar, they didn't know this tidbit that the po was given at Mara. So therefore they couldn't establish a connection between Mila and Shabas because the Milo was in Egypt and Shabas was at Mora. But now that we know that Milo was in Egypt, Prio was at Mora and at the same time with Shabas, now that we know this tidbit from the Zoy, we see that Mila and Shabas go hand in hand. And we could say Shabas is different from any other mitzvah in the Torah. Shabas is depend Shabas is dependent on brisah. So they have We are who? What? For more for more would they need? No. The Jews. No. And I'll tell you a bigger that the rajbah says Ley did in did they need to do again when they left mit when Hashem gave the mitz? The rajb said no. Once you do entering Hashem's even if you're not commanded, you don't have to repeat any of the steps. That's the another. So you don't have to do that. So before we come to the real whopper of the evening, it comes out that while this G who by the way came from Morocco and he was not able to have because his milo was not healed while usher Ancho told him to shabas because he held mil without is not a good gay and that's what this gar did. We have three svaras why in fact shabish should have been kept for a ga that has ma without number one the rajbah that even though you're not a full g unless you have mil and you already begin to enter Judaism a little bit with the mitzvah and therefore you can't say he should be malo shabas number two if you're going to be mal shabas it looks like you're retracting on the original gayos and if you're trying the original gayos then really you you should need again and it's not going to look good. And number three, Shabas is different than any other mitzvah. Shabas is not dependent on being Jewish. Shabas is dependent on bismillah. By the way, before we come to the grand finale, I want to tell you Rabio Angel Rabel writes in his kadush that he finds it funny that there are two ingredients in conversion, mil and is it that you know you need to get to two and one without the other is not going to get you there or is it that they're doing different things? So angel says that there are two steps in becoming a Jew. For example, meni you ever use safer? Not recently, right? Not since I'm haven't been around as much, right? So, what's if somebody creates you know some in some places they need help with a minion? So, you have nine people, right? Used to happen. Remember in the good old days where so what do you do? So the swarm discussed you create somebody with a safer is a goam created with a sit is he Jewish not Jewish is he a it's not a so what is he so you see you could be not go not non-gentile and not Jewish not everyone who's not a gentile is a Jewel says ma removes your status of a But you're still not entering the status of being a Jew enters you into the fold of being Jewish. So it comes out. But if you have mil, you're not a You're not a Jew either, but you're not a What? You're a Right. That's a So fine. Anyway, so now we come to the uh the the highlight of the year. If you came for this year, this is this is a historical episode that's recorded in by a history book about that was told to by Zusman of Kasho that he heard from his good friend Frankfforter that in the times of the there was a little city. What's a good What's a good name of a city near Preburg? Frankfurt. A little city. A little city. What? Ser in Ser. We're just we're protecting the the names of the innocents. So, we're picking a fictitious name. A guy came and the guy said, "I want to I want to convert." So, the rabbi said, "No problem. You have to accept the mitzvah." And then they gave the rabbi a uh and then the rabbi gave him a uh circumcision. Now this rabbi was not the most expert uh moel but he did the job. You know it's not like a rabbi living in the big city where he's doing it every Monday and Thursday. He did it once every seven years. The rabbi didn't do such a slick job as we as we would say. And the was in such pain and uh he had to be admitted in the hospital and his life was in danger. And this became a liel where people said the rabbi tried to kill the the gentile and uh the where the rabb the was in big trouble. So the rabbi goes to theamiferam says you did what? You in your little city in sur you took a gar and you circumcised a gar. This is not something it's not amateur hour. G you know circumcision not amateur hour either you know what you're doing now some is very upset but he said okay it's done already there's only one way out your whole city's in danger the whole world is in all claw you saw is in danger this is what you're going to have to do rabbi you're going to call the mile you're going to pick the mile up in your wagon you're going to pick up the in the wagon and you're going to tell the you're taking him to a famous doctor and you're going to be riding along the Danube River and you're going to make a sharp right turn straight into the river and you're going to commit suicide and this way uh people are going to understand that you didn't try to kill the guy because if you try to kill the guy why would you be kill why would you have been trying to help the guy by taking him to the doctor so you the both of you guys got to go into the wagon you got to bring the guy into the wagon drive to the icy river and you need to plunge to an icy death and that's it. You got to give up your life. So the rabbi said, "If that's what I have to do to save Kai, so that's what I'm going to do." He goes to the may the says, "I'm going to do that also." They knock on the goy's house. The go, you know, he's half dead. Come on, there's a good doctor. He says, "Is it a Jewish doctor?" Yeah, it's a Jewish doctor. Jumps in the wagon. They get to the Danube River and they're about to make a right turn into the icy river. All of a sudden, they see there's a rabbi standing there with a long white beard. He says, "What are you doing? You out of your mind?" "Sorry, you know, we just lost control. What's going on here? Who's in here?" He said, "Whatever. Whatever." The rabbi doesn't let up. He says, "Tell me what's happening." He says, "We have a in the back. What's wrong?" He has a botched ma. Okay. You guys are mishugoy. We're You're going to a doctor? Doctor? What's the doctor going to do once you botched the meal? There's nothing you could do. I happen to have some water in my back pocket. I'm going to pour it on the And he's going to have her sha. And he pours it on the And the guy snaps out of it. And he has herma. And the rabbi and the head straight off to theam says, "I knew you'd be coming back to me. You needed to have Malikris send to this guy and the truth is says I also wanted to see him but you could only see him if you're willing to be and because you followed my advice which I knew you would elu came and he healed the guy. Don't ever do that again. That's the story recorded. you see the godlessness of theam that he knew a how to achieve gilo how to bring rafua to this uh and how to save the Jewish people that's the story so who discusses the story obviously in the and zuberstein asks one simple question the rabbi wants to give up his life to save the Jewish people you're allowed to do that the gumar and tinus talks about a situation where the king wanted to kill out the city because his daughter was killed. So pus and loliness they gave up their life and they committed suicide to save the Jewish people. Are you allowed to commit suicide to save the Jewish people? Aad you're allowed to. Are you allowed to kill someone to save other Jews? Absolutely not. We know many of the Gumar says that if the say either give us one of you or we're going to kill everyone you're now to give one of them. So the fact that the rabbi wants to um turn right into the Danube river and kill himself he's allowed to do that. The fact that the wants to commit suicide he's allowed to do that. But how are they allowed to kill the go? You say what do you mean it's not Israeli? But he had ma without and according to the rajbah if you have ma without you already entered into the fold and you've already become a Jew to a certain extent and you have kadas says what's the ma without and his life is on the line are you allowed to desecrate the shabas to save their life so quotes the that uh since that he has you're allowed to desecrate Shabas to save their life. Oh, you lie to this. So that means if you lie to desecrate Shabas save life that means if you even have to desecrate Shabas to save your life their life then how could you kill them to save other Jews? That's the and I would answer very simply who's the question on them in other knew that they wouldn't be killing him because knew what the outcome of the story was. I guess the question though is how are they allowed to listen to theam? I don't know. When theam tells you to do it, you do it. When theam tells you to jump, you jump. But I guess that's not right. You know, in other words, it would seem that they should not have listened to the of the says as follows. Even though you're not allowed to kill someone to save other people's lives, but if that someone only has if that someone anyway doesn't have a prospect of living indefinitely, then you may be allowed to take their life to save others. This guy, his milo was so botched that his uh prognosis for living wasn't good anyway. So he was only capable of living. So they were allowed to so to speak kill him to save other Jews. But Rabai, this is the great controversy of 1848 and the riveting story of theam who actually recommended to a rabbi and ael that they commit suicide to save the rest of the Jewish people. And this is based on the sor of the rajbah that it does seem that even though one is not a g if they only have mila without nevertheless there is some element of Judaism that has been created through ma even without according to angel it means the status of gentileeness has been taken away but the status of Judaism has not begun plus says if you're going to desecrate the shabas after mila it looks like you're retracting And one of the most interesting fars we saw is that it seems that Shabas is very dependent on either because they're both covenants or because at Mara received Shabas with Mila and even though they did not receive the yet. Okay. But if you do know any converts, it is recommended that they go to the mikvah before Shabas. They could go to um right over here to the or they could go to uh aesh but it is recommended that they go to the mikvah before the shabas so they don't have to get involved in such a uh heated controversy. Say have a great night. 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