Our Bubby Didn't Go to Therapy — But Maybe She Should Have 😂"

Welcome to another episode of Positivity. I'm very excited to be here today. Originally when I started a podcast we did a very holistic approach, therapeutic approach, because that was the journey that I was going through at that time. Um I was very into therapy. I was I had a coach at that time and I felt like I needed somebody to carry me through the day. I was processing a lot. But Hashem, as I went on and I learned these tools, I felt like I was able to go away from the therapy and stop taking the treatment of therapy, but I'm still a huge fan and I have these specific friends that I know that I can call and almost get like a therapy session with them cuz they're good listeners. So, I'm very excited to bring back again a therapist on the show. Um and we didn't have many therapists. I think the last one we had maybe was in Yiddish or maybe yes English, but was Bosner from Monsey. Um but until then we haven't done in a while if a therapist on the show. And I'm happy to sit over here with Avrohom Lefler who is very vocal and you're an activist. You're on LinkedIn. A lot of people know you. Um you worked with different projects in mental health. And I want to start with a question of what is the importance, in your opinion, of therapy for those that don't understand, for those who are starting literally from the beginning. They're listening to this first time. They've never done therapy. They've thought about it. Maybe yes, maybe no. Give us a little bit of an introduction into what is therapy. >> Wow. A great first question. First of all, thanks so much for having me. Pleasure to be here. It's nice to meet in person. Um I really appreciate it. You know, uh I think you call this the Positivity podcast, right? >> Anacortes, the People's podcast. That's my new thing because that's really what it is. So, like if I would need to open a new podcast, I would call it the People's podcast. But that's That's the slogan. Positivity podcast by the people, the People's podcast. >> So, I love anything with people and positive, you know, just the name alone I'm in, you know what I mean? So, yeah. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, so okay, so what is therapy is a is a is a very broad question and if you ask 100 Jews and 100 therapists, you're going to get a thousand different answers, right? You know, it's it's for real. Everyone's probably like checking AI right now like, hey, what's therapy? It's not but yeah, the importance of therapy, what is therapy, right? Whether we like it or not, it's it's a huge part of of life right now and I think Hashem I think it's become much more something people are more open about. >> Yeah. Which is which is tremendous, right? >> Okay. So, and again, if if if one person listens to this and they feel better about their process or as a result they go to therapy, you know, to me it's it's all worth it, right? It's it's tremendous. So, therapy is something which number one is is very very common, all right? It's becoming more and more common. Hashem there's a lot more options out there and there's there's something for everyone, right? There's there's private therapists, there's clinics, there's really is something for everybody and and therapy not only is it nothing to be ashamed about but to me any client who comes to me, I understand it's it's a little more private, you don't have to yell it at the rooftop but I always look at it like it's a source that you're here, it's such an opportunity and I tell that to adults and kids. That's how I frame it. It's an opportunity. Even if a kid comes to me, I see kids through adults. The kid comes to me, I say, you know, turn to your parents and thank them, right? Like you're here for it's a tremendous opportunity, right? And the reason is is because, you know, we could get into why and is the world tougher or the reasons why people struggle with things, more expectations, whatever it is, there's so many reasons but the reality is but that is true. So, for people, you know, who need it, you know, does everyone have to go? Do most people have to go? The bottom line is um therapy is a place where people could come and it's a non-judgmental setting and zone where you speak with someone, you get attention, you get validation, um you get skills, you get a mah ha ha ha yum. You know, you learn what to do in a a multitude of situations, emotions, relationships, self-esteem, process trauma, you name it. Um it's really a place when you go with the right therapist that is has to be a good fit, of course, right? Um you really it really really could be life-changing. >> Right. So, do you find that people go to therapy and they're proactive or reactive? For most people, are they coming to you when they already have the problem or they going to you when they say, "Before I reach any problems, I want to be able to process my relationship, my emotions, my feelings, my life, and so on." >> So, most people probably come because it's reactive. >> Mhm. >> You know, most people come because they're already dealing with something or someone sent them to therapy, right? >> Okay. >> Um and they're struggling, you know, anxiety, this, that. Um so, the truth of the matter is and I don't know if you're alluding to this or not, but yeah, you know, how love I people would come and not wait until it's it's it's too late or and and sometimes it is sometimes it's like why 5 years ago would have been like the better time to come, you know? >> Right. >> Um and and I know again, anytime is better than no, it's always a good time, right? There's no such thing as it's too late, right? You know, we're happy to have you. But yeah, sometimes it's like it's easier to help someone and it's it's better to deal with it, you know, before it gets out of control, before it's chaotic. >> Right. >> Right? Let's deal with it. Let's build you up. Let's help you to be able to cope ahead and not struggle mightily, right? You know, so absolutely and it is and there is it has been a little bit more of a movement. There's been a little bit more of a shift as far as like more proactive stuff. Let's say, you know, people get married, you know, premarital stuff like that. Used to be it was more controversial. >> Yeah. >> Pre-marital, no, you're going to cause issues and problems. Now, there is a little bit more of a movement as far as, you know, hey, let let's meet with someone. Let's discuss what is an emotion? What is a relationship, right? What is connection? >> Right. It's funny because in my opinion, and maybe I'm just reflecting off myself, [snorts] I'm seeing that in the future I think people would need less therapy versus a lot of people saying in the future we're going to need more therapy cuz there's more technology and whatever, but I see it as a chance that we're going to need less therapy because people are getting used to acknowledging feelings, asking the right questions, knowing how to be open with a friend, and knowing when to actually go for help. So, because it's not such a stigma, there's a big chance that we'll have these tools more naturally, more effortlessly um than in the past. It's just my own little thing that I was thinking now as you're saying it because you're saying how we're so open to it. I think it's true. A few years ago I didn't know about therapy. When I started therapy I felt like it was a big stigma. Today's days, if I do feel I need therapy, I know exactly where to go. So, you know, things are shifting, right? >> I think things are definitely shifting. I have a vibe. I hope we get there, right? That it's less. I'll be the first one that I'll take down the shingle. We'll do something else, you know? But, yeah, if someone's thinking about investing in therapy, I I wouldn't say no quite yet, you know? It's a >> It is a rising thing now? >> It's first of all, the the field is thriving. There's more therapists than ever, right? So, you know, and you know, again, you want to go to a good one, but yeah, for right now I think it's a slow crawl. In other words, yeah, there's there's a little bit more weirdness, you know, which is awesome. There's a little more of like, you know, decreasing the stigma, which I personally I try to do as much as possible. Try to be an ambassador of therapy, you know, normalize it, you know? Someone comes in, you know, it's great. It's shmack. We have a good time, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> You know, we're we're here, you know, >> It feels great to be talking to somebody >> It really does. And you don't have to be a whole life, right? That's the point, right? It's >> 100% >> You know, just come do what you have to do. >> Yeah, so when and why did you become a therapist personally? >> Funny cuz that was our first day of graduate school, right? They asked the asked everyone to get up and to answer that question, right? Why did you So, of course, most people put on acts and so on. And it was actually a very varied and diverse group of people. I'm not going to name names right now, but you know what people answered, but it would be interesting. Um the the real truth is is you know, the reason why anyone hopefully goes into the field is prerequisites are that you enjoy working with people, right? Otherwise, there's nothing to talk about, right? >> Okay. >> Um you have to enjoy working with people, enjoy helping people. So, I felt like I had that. Um and there was also the practical. At the time that I went in, um it was it was a good time for me. It was a good time for transition. I can't say there was any like, you know, life awakening, moving, shifting moment. It felt like, you know, it was just like it was practical. The program opened up. A lot of guys were doing it. I felt like it made sense for me. Um but it's definitely something which um it was the best thing I ever did. Um I grew into it tremendously every year more by more and more. Um I'm more passionate about it now than I was when I started 15 years ago, you know? I love it every day. I love it. >> But how many years of school did it involve? >> So, it was 2 years of full-time graduate school. >> Okay. >> Um you know, pretty pretty intense, you know, writing a lot of papers, you know, traveling into downtown Brooklyn, internships, and it it takes time to build up. There's no way around it. It is a bit of a hot topic now like as far as is the field getting oversaturated and is it hard and could you make a parnossa from it? All very legitimate questions. Um but it's it's a very meaningful career. It's a tremendously meaningful career and I I still think that holds true. And if anybody reaches out to me, which a lot of people do like, you know, should I become it? Should I not? You know, if you if you enjoy working with people, if you're passionate about it, if you're not looking to get rich, you know, there's is nothing like it. It's such a meaningful career. >> Right. >> I'm sorry that I that I there was a question there somewhere. I don't >> Yeah, no, no, it's very it's very interesting. What do you think as a therapist, what is not think, what's your specialty? What would you say is your specialty? Is it focusing on anxiety, relationships, personal trauma? IDF, there's so many different routes and therapy. Yeah. >> So I specialize in people, you know, but but yeah, you know, everyone sort of does need, you know, whether you need a niche whether, you know, just what to answer people or not. So I work I have a studio I do work with kids through adults. I work with anxiety, phobias, OCD, panic attacks. I do a lot of parenting, love helping parents. We do a lot a lot of parenting. Anything to do with emotions, relationships, mood, emotional regulation, anything to do with that. So I do. >> Right. >> I feel pretty confident doing. And my approach, you know, over so I could just list all my trainings, my approach is, you know, sort of my tagline, which my LinkedIn people will know, is compassionate and evidence-based therapy, which I think is unique and I think it's it's important. In other words, compassionate cuz otherwise what are we talking about, right? It's important and you can't take it for granted. And then evidence-based as far as like, you know, we do things that we know works and we know it helps. So I'm goal-oriented. In other words, what are we doing? How are you doing, right? I do frequent check-ins with my clients, but compassionate. So I'm very very friendly, interpersonal, you know, and so on and so forth. We have a good time, but at the same time we have we have goals. >> Wow. That's >> I nice I find it's it's a nice it's a nice potent combination and works for me. >> Yeah. No, it's amazing. Um I'm thinking because anxiety personally has been something that I I personally struggled with uh for a while. Um and I think the root cause to that is not feeling safe in your environment growing up and it's nobody's fault necessarily because kids and teens will interpret their version of the world than what it is so they can have the best parents or best friends but still if they had something that they didn't process, it still can stay there as a strong emotion. Um I'm not sure. I don't I don't know if therapy gave me necessarily the tools or rather the support that it's okay. That it's like as if I always felt like, you know, if worst the worst thing happens which is I don't know, maybe ending up in a mental institution, God forbid, like then at least somebody knows my story but my point is that not going that deep and far but I knew that I have the support. Somebody's there to at least help me with my mental health. And to me that was a lot. Obviously, I learned also tools but I at the end of the day it was a phase and it was me coming to certain realizations that therapy helped me with. So I'm curious in your opinion, do you think that that's what therapy is? Is it a support or is it giving people tools? Is it a long-term or is it just different for everybody? >> So for sure. >> [laughter] >> You know, >> Loaded question. >> So it's it's a very loaded question, right? But you know, we'll answer as the best of our ability. We'll answer honestly, right? >> Yeah. >> So um so again, I'll start off saying, you know, one of my most, you know, commonly lines I say is it's all on the dialectic, right? What does that mean right in English, not Chinese? So everything in dialectic means that there's truth to everything. I think it's such an important thing in life in general. Um we can learn from anything and there's truth to anything and there's no one size fits all, right? So, I'm huge into that in life in general. There's no all or nothing. There's no this is the one approach, that's the one approach cuz people are different, right? People are complex, right? Every therapist is so different, right? So, that's the first thing is there's definitely no one size fits all. So, so important. But, I think, you know, again, as far as I know, um research has always shown that one, if not the most important thing in therapy, um is the relationship, right? At the end of the day, right? So, I think both are so, so important. Um if you have a therapist, they can know thousands of skills, right? They could have 82 letters after their names, right? But, at the end of the day, what's the feel in the room, right? Like you said, does it feel safe, right? If you walk into room, it's it's a felt sense, right? Okay, I know I'm wanted here. I know it's safe, right? If that's the case, then first of all, that's huge, right? For some people it might be 90%, for some people it might be 30, 40%, but it's the connection is huge. Feeling safe is tremendous. Having connection, right? Is is a very, very important. And for other people, you know, even if they're going to do learning or skills, right? I don't you know, could that take place if they don't feel safe, right? Or if they're feeling like get me out of here, right? You know? So, it's it's it's it's it's a huge prerequisite for therapy is that felt sense of feeling safe. So, so, so important, you know? >> I think the my next question would be is like how do I know now if I need therapy or not? Like, you know, there's a chance that >> The feedback's already coming in, you know? This is a this is a you know, >> Yeah. Uh there's a chance that the the it's actually my mother, so >> Maybe you should take it then. It's your mother. >> Yeah, what's doing? Oh, okay. Perfect. All right, I'm going to text my wife. Okay, bye. Bye. >> Yeah, mothers you know they're you know >> Yeah, and I and it people get are are amazed when I don't even cut it out. >> [laughter] >> I think that I think that adds to it, you know? I think the naturalness, the genuine aspect of it. >> Yeah. >> Having said that, I don't still have to hear the conversation depending what it is, you know? That might have to be cut out. >> Yeah. >> Do you just run live the whole thing? Do you do editing or every bit >> So, no. I try not to do editing because I'm bringing people into the conversation and if my conversation um if my conversation got interrupted and then you know, they're along with me for the ride anyway. >> Love it. >> So, yeah. Um The the my next question is how do I know if I need therapy right now? Meaning I feel good. I feel relatively happy. Um I have my anxious moments. I have my even depressive moments, which I happened to have learned in the book of the power of letting go, um which helped me a lot because it was explaining the cycle of depression, which is that you go into your ego mind, ego self. You then lose yourself and you feel as if you got this. And then at a certain point you can't hold up with that identity and you get depressed. And then once you're depressed, you're obviously more connected to yourself, so you heal, you take care of yourself, and then you're strong again. But then you go back into an ego mind and you say, "No, it's fine. I'm good." And you start being reckless, you stop exercising, you go to sleep late, you eat unhealthy foods, and the cycle continues. And then you get depressed, and then you heal, and then you're good. So, it's a really a four-step process. Now, in the book, they were explaining how this cycle can go for years, can go for months, weeks, days, hours, or even minutes. Meaning to say that And I saw that in the beginning when I got depressed for the first time, it took 7 or 8 months, or even a year almost till I got out. And then every story afterwards lasted less. And then today I would have even last week I felt really depressed, but I also knew that I had lack of sleep. I was a little bit stressed, had a lot of new business opportunities within my companies. Um so, the whole depression kind of lasted for 2 hours only. And I was able to see past it. So, I've noticed that if you know the cycle of your life in general, whatever that is, then it's a lot easier to go through it. Um back to my question is how does a person know if I I don't know, maybe I do need right now help. Maybe I'm on the brinks of a collapse, maybe on a mental collapse. People see mental breakdown as the worst word ever. There's nothing wrong with a mental breakdown. Everything that happens in our life every kid has mental breakdowns. When they switch from eating like this to eating like this, it's a mental breakdown. >> stressors, there's there's everything. >> Yeah, the mental breaks down. So, how does a person know maybe I'm now before a mental breakdown, maybe I can prevent it by starting therapy, and I can say tell a therapist, "Hey, I'm doing perfectly fine, but I'm noticing I am a little bit more stressed than usual, maybe a little bit less present. Maybe we should start working together." Or no, or I say no, I'm perfectly fine. Let me do this on my own. You get my question? >> I I totally do. First of all, I'm right here, so you know, no worries. [laughter] Wouldn't be the worst timing in the world, you know. >> Yeah, yeah. >> But um so, it's it's excellent question. It's excellent question. So, um it's let's two-pronged, right? So, number one is how does someone know if they need therapy, right? I think that's an excellent excellent question which a lot of people are probably wondering about, right? So, let's start with that. So, the way I say sort of the get there that I use, right, is a person, you know, benefits most from therapy if they have something which is affecting their functioning, right? Now, if someone's doing great, they're doing great, right? You know, and that gets into this everybody needs therapy. I think most people would benefit from therapy, but does everyone need therapy? Not necessarily. If you're doing good, you're doing good. Don't obsess about it, you know, you're doing great. Keep it up, you know. Affecting functioning though is another story, right? So, if someone has, let's say, anxiety, right? So, anxiety is not the enemy, right? Some anxiety could be good. Healthy anxiety could be a motivating factor, right? What if it's too much? What if it's out of control? He can't sleep at night. He's afraid every minute he's going to get sick and he actually gets sick cuz he's That's what he's thinking. And there's so many anxieties, social anxiety, avoiding So, now he can't go places. He can't work. Avoiding work, avoiding class, and staying in his house, right? You you go somewhere and instead of going and being open to people, you're hiding, you're sitting with a a big safe over your head, right? Not such a masochist. Avoiding anxiety, right? It's sad, right? So, yeah, affecting function, that's a reason to reach out. You reach out and let's see what's going on. That could be with any emotion, any trauma, any anxiety, depression, you name it, right? If it's affecting your functioning, then yeah, you should probably speak with someone and at least get a better idea what's going on, what's needed. Is it therapy? Is it meditation? Maybe it's a rebbe, a rav, a friend, right? You know, exercise, sleep, right? These things which are we call vulnerability factors, including sleep and eating and stuff like that, right? But yeah, affecting functioning is is really name of the game. And then once once someone's in therapy, the goal is for the person to be their own therapist, right? It's another big hot potato. When does someone stop therapy, right? Ask the million therapists, you're going to get a million different answers. Is the goal no, you keep them as long as, you know, possible? I don't know if they want to come, they come. Or they're doing well. Um so my personal perspective is we're looking for the person to become their own therapist, right? I think that's the most empowering thing. But they know what to do, they feel better, they instinctively second nature, right? They know, like you said, you have you have something that works for you. >> Yeah. >> I'm not intimately familiar with that, but a person learned thoughts, emotions, CBT, DBT, IFS, whatever it is. A person knows their inner world, they have the confidence, they have the skills. The point is they have what works for them, right? You said used to be months, now it's 2 hours, right? You know? Is that not worth a million bucks? I think it is, right? Maybe more. Maybe more, right? That's that's that's the goal. >> Michael, what do you think? >> I think we should really >> give you a mic, by the way. Hey, this you can talk in. Huh? Sounds good the conversation so far? It's interesting? Okay. How about I could we get you a mic and uh you'll be able to Now, that you don't you don't have to see your face, but it's just like a lot of the podcasts have like a commentator sitting in the side fact-checking. >> Absolutely. And he has a lot what to say. We were talking beforehand, right? >> Yeah, he's a smart guy. >> [laughter] >> If it's not you, it can be Schmeely. Um it's very interesting. No, I'm actually I'm enjoying this conversation because in the past when I had conversations with mental health professionals, I was in that place where I felt I was relying very much on it. And over here, I feel like I'm giving this conversation I have to go back to that place where I was driven by anxiety and depression and fear and whatever and think in their perspectives what is the questions that they would have or what can be helpful for those people at the time. I think also for me the tools that I learned is I'm able like we said to get back into the place a lot quicker. So, for me, I think what leads what brings me personally to depression is not being present. So, it's like the more present I am, the happier I am. The less present I am, the more borderline depressed I am even not knowing. Like because you can be running for a very long time. Some people run for their whole lives. They run, they distract, they then they make jokes. They're like the funny person usually. And all they're doing is they're running away from depression and anxiety. >> Massive massive defense mechanisms, right? You know, absolutely. Sometimes the the loudest people, you know, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and in one word, mindfulness. Are you familiar with mindfulness? It sounds like being present, right? So, mindfulness is huge. Another big thing, you know, that we know is across the board. >> Yeah. >> You know, mindfulness, being present, being more calm, being more curious, >> Yeah. >> participating in our own lives, >> Yeah. >> noticing what's coming up, right? Mindfulness has been opening a light, opening your eyes, right? >> Yeah. >> And living your life that way, you see sometimes we don't like the view, right? So, we want to close our eyes, right? >> Right. >> But then we crash, right? So, better to be able to sometimes feel that difficult emotion >> Yeah. >> like a person, but we see where we're going. >> 100%. I mean, presence >> 100%. >> Presence for most people that don't understand what present means because everybody thinks, "Oh, I'm present." But the fact is it's impossible to be present if you look at your phone at the end of the day and you see that you're on your phone for 10 hours out of the day. That's that's zero presence. And what what happens is and how I got into depression was because I didn't know myself anymore. So, I was becoming super famous and I went through personal troubles in my life lose I lost a close friend or just different things that happened in my life and at some point I was like who am I? I have no idea. And and why should I have known myself? I was on my phone till 1:00 at night still answering WhatsApps and Instagram. I had zero connection to myself. Um that's where I started doing daily breathwork and meditation visualization just figuring out who am I? What do I fall back on? What are my boundaries? Like uh do I have boundaries? Do I have a connection a relationship to myself to Hashem? Like what's what's happening in my life? I think most people if they do an assessment like this they'll immediately feel a lot better. And most people are not going to do this I'm going to assume but if they do they will feel a lot better and they'll live a much happier healthier life. They can be their own therapist by being mindful. >> That's right. And it start at the end of the day it does start with the person right? You know there's no way around that. No but selfish and no it it starts with the person. Person does have to get to know themselves ideally like themselves and even love yourself in a healthy way. It's it's very very important and then boundaries and everything really all that follows. And then it becomes so much easier so much >> Is anxiety very common in our community? I mean you deal with a lot of people here in Lakewood. Um yeah which by the way shout out to the Westwood studio beautiful building. You were amazed when you walked in. >> Beautiful building beautiful building. >> you to them this is their studio and uh I really appreciate it. Thank you Westwood Westwood one Westwood two. If you're looking for an office feel free to reach out to them. Um do you think a lot of people in Lakewood struggle with anxiety and what's your take on anxiety in general? How would you explain it? How do you see it? >> So, I'll give you two choices, A and B. A, do you do you think a lot of people are anxious or do you know? What would you guess? >> I think a lot of people are anxious. >> Correct. >> [laughter] >> I I would I would concur with that. Anxiety unfortunately is very very common. >> Okay. >> Very very very common across the board. All ages, all spectrums. I've had clients as old as 80 who came to therapy for the first time. >> Wow. >> They were dealing with it their whole life. Like strong anxiety, strong social anxiety, self-esteem issues, right? >> Yeah. >> And people who are very very young as well, you know, have anxiety. Anxiety is very broad, but in short, I'll even give you my best clinical definition of anxiety. Anxiety is an overreaction to a perceived threat. >> Correct. >> That's how I view it, right? You know, of course it's real, it feels of course, right? But at the end of the day, usually when we feel anxious, the bear is not chasing us, right? You know, there's no one coming to eat a tall guy after us, right? We feel anxious, right? So, we are overreacting to what we consider a perceived threat. And that could be anything from emotions, trauma, it could be past experiences, it could be we're taking a test, right? It could be high schools, mesifta's, right? >> Yeah. >> Bottom, these are real things, these are real stresses, right? You know, societal expectations, right? You know, this guy's learning better than me, right? You know, it doesn't end. >> Right. >> So, I think there's a lot of expectations and that's a biggie in Lakewood for sure. And it definitely leads to a lot of anxiety and that could be generalized anxiety, social anxiety, OCD, you know, you name it. You know, it's it's it's unfortunately it's pretty common. >> Wow. Yeah, personally I think for a while I I had health anxiety. So, that's pretty scary. It's like every moment you're afraid that you're not healthy now or you're not going to be healthy um which is funny because as much as I've worked on it but I am still I I call myself Jewish almost to validate No, because we people are now moving away. The first thing that you that people ask Do they have a tzolah over there? Like collectively as a nation we somehow have I think crazy anxiety. I was just watching a video of uh the uh new area in Orlando. Um forgot the name of the place. >> they're building there the new community over there. What is >> Okeechobee. That also, yeah. That also >> That's the one I saw. >> But there's there's a there's a place Eden Gardens about an hour away hour and a half away from there. And also they have about 50 families or whatever and they were showing on the videos, yeah, we have uh tzolah vehicle and there's during the week there's one atzolah member. It's like how obsessed are we with atzolah with our health when we know that health emergencies happen one in a million like me I mean not one in a million, but what are the chances? The chances are pretty slim that you're especially for a young person that you're going into a cardiac arrest. So it's like which is the one thing that needs to be treated very quickly or choking or So my question is for a person like me, how do I even deal with this? Why is this still something that's on my mind and how do I get over it? >> So very brave of you to you know >> Yeah. >> Very brave of you, but hey, listen, that's what you're here for, right? So health anxiety happens to be health anxiety is is not kosher. I find health anxiety sometimes is is actually really hard, right? And you have to say it's just a manifestation of whatever anxiety, but um health anxiety, yeah, absolutely is is basically it's the same thing as any anxiety as far as healthy anxiety is you know, you know, basically you have something going on, right? Let me deal with it, right? But people with health anxiety sometimes you know, they'll go to the doctor and the doctor until the doctor says if you come back to me one more time, I'm going to send you to a therapist like I'm going to buy you therapy. >> been there. I mean, I've been I've been going to doctors for once a month and then at some point I was like, okay, nothing is wrong with you. But the question is where where does health anxiety in your opinion even come from and how does one take care of this? >> So, you know, so I'm not going to get into the whole, you know, CBT for thing, but basically in one word it's uncertainty. You know, health anxiety uncertainty is, you know, it might happen, I might get sick, right? The symptom might be something, right? I might need Hatzolah, right? And as a result, you know, you know, a person engages in what we call safety behaviors, right? Constant checking, excessive checking, right? Where's the closest, you know, thing, you know, let me just in case, just in case. So, it's actually really hard, but you know, you know, sure we do all of this stuff, but it's ultimately it's being okay with some uncertainty, you know? And that's hard. >> So, how do how do I get, okay, with some uncertainty? I mean, one of my best friends, Moshe Young, he's very smart and very into these things. He taught me this idea of baby steps, which I love because I remember for me about 2 years ago I was I was I wanted to challenge myself. I think it was almost 3 years ago. So, I was like, "Motza Sekus, I was like, I'm heading out to Niagara Falls and I'm going on my own cuz I'm going to finally show the entire world that I'm not afraid, I don't care, I can be alone. I don't need Hatzolah, I don't I don't not afraid." And I ended up going there and as soon as I got there, that's when the panic attack, legit anxiety attack I should say, started. I was like, "What the hell am I doing? I'm here, nobody's here. There's no nothing here. There's no Jews, there's no There's no whatever. There's And now I'm pretty screwed because I just drove for 7 hours, so I'm not going back. So, I'm sleeping over the night. I ended up driving back the next day because it was like, "Okay, challenge over." So, I wanted to stay for two nights. And uh so, that I drove back the next day and then I was just sunk cuz driving 7 hours, didn't sleep much. Driving back 7 hours, by the time I got here, I was crazy. And then And then the actually the anxiety really woke up in my life because I was like, "Okay, I couldn't even go to Niagara Falls fully." So, at some point I was afraid to drive from here to Brooklyn. But the point is I I'm I'm I'm saying it because I did extreme measures to show >> the key. Extreme measures versus baby steps, right? >> And baby steps would have been that drive like I did last year still because it's still something in my life. I drove last year to Atlantic City. I was like, "Okay, it's 55 minutes away. Let me go to the fair night. Slee- see if I can And it was successful. And I was very proud of myself. Last year Pesach, I also went to Tulum, Mexico, so which was a even bigger step. It's like, "Okay, now you added a country. You're even further away." And it took me a day or two to settle in. Um but my point is that the quick answer is baby steps. But I I'm curious if you have a quick answer for somebody that has this anxiety and only wants to play it safe or doesn't is afraid to travel, is afraid to go somewhere where there isn't more Yidden or it's >> Absolutely. So, you know, before the baby steps, so you know, basically we use something called CBT, which is we help the person to understand their inner world, their thoughts, their emotions, the behaviors as a result of it, and to under- to learn to estimate the thoughts. Are they accurate? Are they not? And the relationship between the So, we do all of that, but after all of that, there still is the baby steps. And another word, which is a if I could use a dirty word on a podcast, uh exposure therapy. Exposure therapy. Not exposing yourself, exposure therapy. Which basically that's a way of saying like baby steps, right? So, in other words, but >> So, you you believe in exposure therapy? >> Uh absolutely. Exposure therapy is crucial. It's just it has to be done the right way. Where I find a lot of therapists are a little too gung-ho and a little too overeager. Jump in, you could do it, right? And then if it's a disaster, that's not therapy. That's more traumatizing than the event itself. That's a big problem. >> is the challenge for me one step at a time? I mean, like literally in any area where I have anxiety, just go >> Absolutely. It's It's It's basically it's together, let's say, you know, if you'd be working with a therapist, collaboratively coming together with what is reasonable for you to try, you know, that you have a pretty good plan for success. You know what to expect. You know the anxiety that you might feel, and you have a good plan for dealing with it, right? >> Right. >> At least logically and rationally. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And but we we do exposure therapy, we help the person ahead of time. >> Mhm. >> In other words, these are the physical symptoms that you're having. So, we do things on purpose, you know, let's say if someone has the heavy breathing and heart's, you know, I'll have them spin in my chair, a chair just like that, and they'll spin for 2 minutes, and stand up suddenly, and they feel dizzy and faint, and what happens is they don't fall down, right? So, the goal is that, and it's so important. Panic attacks, >> Yep. >> anxiety, it's like you see, it's the symptoms themselves aren't dangerous, you know, it's just your reaction to the symptoms. >> Correct. >> It's very It's so so important. Also, you get used to it. >> Yeah. >> Become a little more used to it. Like, okay, you know, yeah. You know, so that's yeah, that's the key key key, and it's helpful across the board. Um and then the person's willing to say, well, if I know cognitively there's no threat. I know in the history of the world nothing's happened to anybody because of a panic attack, which is true, by the way, right? Um it just feels really scary, which it does. I've had panic attacks. They feel really really scary. >> They do. Yeah, cuz you don't really know what to do. >> But I use this stuff and it it works. It works, you know? And then And then we do the baby steps, you know? It has to be the person is prepped and they feel they could do it. And then yeah, so whether it's going up for an aliyah, whether it's health anxiety, right? Whether a person has fear of traveling cuz they're going to have to go to the bathroom, right? Um we deal with it all, right? And it's all about First we go through it and like, "Okay, yeah. Let me drive a block." >> Yeah. >> Let me drive Right? I don't know where the bathroom is, right? Or you know, "I'll go to the dentist, right?" Or yeah, "I'm not going to call the doctor for a few minutes." Like and then they taste success, right? And it's hard, but they do it. And like, "Okay." Then you move to the next step, you know? So yeah, that piece is crucial. >> Yeah. Right. I love that. Um I also find it personally that within my anxiety, obviously if I eat healthy and exercise and sleep well, then these symptoms are a lot, a lot less and vice versa. And by chance now I'm I'm in a place where I can already tell and see from before and then I know if I'm anxious, I ask myself, "Okay, what's going on? What are we Where are we lacking in the physical?" Because our body body is the vehicle. So the more we take care of our bodies, the more we have the strength to deal with these things that come up. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. As much as that gets overshadowed sometimes, right? Um health is important, sleep is important, right? You know, what what a person eats, you know, it has a tremendous impact. >> Yeah, so I I was thinking like for a honeymoon, I was thinking because there's so many tropical places where you can go, but I in a sense, I feel like I have the anxiety. It's like, "Where do I go? I go to a some island over there and there's I don't know. I need to make sure I have >> for sure now. >> No, it's all a for sure. I need to make sure I have my food. It's For me it's not just about atzalah, it's for me it's also about the unknown. It's like, "Who's going to be there? Am I going to be comfortable? What am I falling back on to? It's like, where do I go if I'm not comfortable? Um, but yeah, I guess Hatzalah is a part of I I don't So, for me I decided I was like, maybe I should just go to Panama. Over there there's Jewish community, there's Hatzalah, there I have everything over there. And it's still somewhere where it's not a my comfort zone. Yeah. >> absolutely. So, did you go at the end? >> So, I want to go in the winter. But it But then again, someone would can also say that, okay, look, you're just falling for it. You're just, you know what I'm saying? You're feeding into it. Now you're showing yourself that >> such a good and I get asked that all the time, right? I I get asked that this week. I don't want to give away too much information, right? You know? But uh yeah, so again, you got to be normal, right? You know, what's called normal, right? A client this week asked me, you know, could I have water, right? You know, I don't want to give in to the anxiety, right? You know? But I want water, yeah. Have water, you know what I mean? Like it's a normal thing to have some water, right? You'll build up and you'll get there, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, I think we we don't want to get too much inside our head, you know what I mean? We don't be too theoretical, you know? It has to make sense. So, as much as, you know, we try to eliminate we call safety behaviors and all of that. No, I I wouldn't tell you to go to, you know, you know, some igloo in Antarctica where there's no one within 10,000 miles, right? You know what I mean? Like no, that's too much. >> Definitely don't start with that, you're saying. So, for me >> If you go to Alaska on a guided tour and you could do that, then you could go a little further north, you know? >> When I did, when I went to Tulum, Mexico, which is really Mexico for itself is a supposedly some people say it's dangerous. I I did feel safe because I think for two reasons. Someone I knew I'm going with close people that I knew that you know, they're just there if if something were to happen. I also knew that it's it's the season of Pesach where there even if there's no Hatzalah, but there's also there is hundreds if not thousands of people there. >> there's people like so you know within range. >> So I I do think that people make me safe. I'm trying to Sometimes I try to kind of trick my own brain and just tell her that it's okay. Like you don't have to rely on Like there's 911 everywhere. So it's like maybe there is that tool that you need. Or when it comes to food like there's food all over. Every grocery has eggs. Like it's okay. I try to a little bit reason with my brain if that makes sense. >> Absolutely. And it's a good thing. It's It's a good thing to do. A good thing to do. And it's some uncertainty and some logic and all those kinds of stuff as well, right? Um and we can deal with it and what's the worst case scenario and all those kinds of things. Absolutely. So uh it sounds like you're handling with it well and >> Thank you. >> a good balance. A good balance. Absolutely. >> send the invoice after the >> no no no invoice. It's If If you'll send me, you know. It's It's a good balance. A balance is so important in life just in general, you know, just you know, just you know, to be balanced, not extremes, right? You know, you work your way up. We'll be honest assessment, you know, not saying you. I'm saying I'm saying you like the everyone else, me, you, the viewer, right? You know, where where you holding, right? Where you holding now? Do what Do what's healthy, you know, do a nice middle ground, you know, and then you'll go from there. You know, I think that's is pretty important. >> Right. Um I want to talk about relationships. Is that something that you specialize in? Do you deal with both sides of the relationship or just one individual seeing their interactions, the relationships if we can talk about that? >> Sure. Absolutely. So I work a lot with relationships. Um first of all, people have relationship with themselves at the end of the day, right? So um perhaps of the most important ones. >> Absolutely. >> I think that's pretty important. Um as well, I do some marital counseling as well. So I do see both. But even when I do individual, which is then the focus is more in the individual, usually I will invite the spouse in, you know, so we don't I to neglect that. So um yeah, so I do have a uh a fair amount of experience with relationships. >> What do you see is the common relationship problem? Like when somebody's coming in, okay, we're having a problem, which in my opinion, a problem, I I'm guessing is basically we're just not getting along or there's fighting or there's disconnect. We don't feel good in this relationship. What do you see is the common um reason to that? >> So, you know, with relationships, um I find that it's anything from communication um and deeper than that is sometimes with couples is um ultimately it's a feeling of safety. You know, so what I do with couples a lot is something called EFT. I don't know if you're familiar with EFT or not. So, emotionally focused therapy. So, the goal is it's not as much on the content, it's more on the emotions, it's more on the patterns, it's more on the feeling of connection, of attachment, of safety, right? And things like that. So, um so on one hand, communication is important and we we do definitely do that. It's pretty important. But also we focus on a little bit deeper is what's the cycles. We try to understand the cycles that's taking place. That takes a lot of braveness from both the, you know, the spouse as far as like, you know, um you know, you know, get reactive, what's really going on, right? You know, cuz we feel so anxious, right? >> Yeah. >> And and what happens? We we get upset, you know, and either we get so defensive and attack, right? "Oh, he's doing it to me." Or we withdraw, right? And we run for it, right? "I'm out of here," right? And it makes sense cuz what what should we do? We feel threatened, right? We feel our whole sense of self is, right? Is being attacked, right? >> you're saying and that's why many times So, you're saying that a lot of the times there's something deeper really why the patterns are happening. >> Absolutely. And I'm not saying couples aren't ready when they get married or immature or anything. I'm not even going there. I think just with a lot of people, I think across the board. I think if there's something which is not addressed and in the relationship if there's not the safety to be able to bring it up, which is hard, right? Not every marriage has a thing of, "Hey, what I really mean is, you know, this and I don't feel safe and I want this from you and let's connect and let's have attachment." And especially if they weren't taught it as a child, they didn't have attachment, they might not even know themself what it is, right? So, then how could they express it to their spouse? >> 100% >> So, we try we try to do that together and and then a result, what better person than a spouse sometimes if you if they're willing to do that work of, you know, "Hey, yeah, let me prove that you are safe with me, right?" And yeah, you could, you know, be yourself or express yourself. >> And then, in a sense, they can hold you accountable of whether you're feeling unsafe and they can give you safety or you're feeling uncomfortable, whatever, they can make you feel comfort. Yeah, >> So, who better, right? You know, who better? Not me. I see you 40 minutes a week, right? You know? So, better them and then also, once you feel safe, then it's easier to communicate, right? You know, it's you know, it's not that complicated. >> So, do you sometimes see singles also that have trauma and you're trying to help them get into a place where they can be ready for a relationship? >> Absolutely, absolutely. And it's a great goal and it's an important goal and, you know, we try to help them to to do well without the pressure of, you know, I need to get married or I need to do this, I need to do that. Just, you know, feel good, >> Yeah. >> understand the relationship, understand what an emotion is, you know, what's the anxiety, >> Mhm. >> you know, what's going on if there was any trauma, you know, just to be able to, you know, navigate their own emotions, >> Right. >> sense of self and then to be able to form a healthy relationship with another person. >> Right. You mentioned that you see kids through parents. What does that mean? >> through parents. I see young kids all the way through adults from >> Oh. >> age six, seven, eight um to to 80. >> Oh, wow. So, kids of 6, 7, 8 can have anxiety, can have these problems. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Unfortunately. >> Problem is a kid. >> All of you, all of us as a kid, you know. >> And And how does working with them when their brains are not fully developed yet? I mean, no disrespect to kids, but I I I I look down on kids sometimes because I'm like >> Okay. >> You're stupid. You're You're young. You're No, you're not fully developed yet. >> of kids. I'm like, you don't know anything. You could just Yeah, have fun. Live life, right? >> Yeah. But at the same time, it's like whatever you're doing now is not what you're going to be doing in a while from now. So, and I can't have a mature conversation with you. So, but anyway, I'm not I don't really look down at kids. I think they're the cutest and adorable and whatever, but I'm saying when working with them, how is it different because whatever you're teaching them now, they're they're growing still. >> Yeah, they are they are still growing. Yeah, it's it's different work. I happen to love it cuz I love both, you know. Not everyone could. I I love both. I love the diversity of it. It's such a great change of pace, right? You work with adults, you know, it's like, you know, adults could talk sometimes, right? You know, they're a little more advanced like you're saying, right? Um with kids, um on the other hand, like you said, kids are cute, you know, kids are they bring something else to the table, right? But, you know, too much of anything, you know, sometimes people get stagnant. So, it's actually awesome as far as the change of pace is is tremendous. Um but to answer your question directly, um I would say for carrots. I mean, people say adults are nothing but, you know, kids who happen to be taller. You know, so, [laughter] you know, since you can go either way, right? >> Sometimes more innocent than >> Yeah, they're more innocent and also in a way, it's like, you know, when should we really work on it, right? Is when the person's 42? >> Uh-huh. >> And they're already so scarred and battle-weary, right? And they're so developed, right? And now they're trying to like change all of that. They're trying to change their belief systems, and which is very doable, you know, but or someone who's younger, 10, 12, right? And they still are able to do that, right? And if they're able to have a good mastery of their emotions, right? And understand what a relationship is, and be happy in life, and thrive, and do good, then it's more likely they won't even need therapy when they're 42. You know what I mean? And even if they do, which is fine, right? Um you know, they have that resource to reach out cuz they had a positive experience, even if they are a little young, which certainly could happen, right? You know? But you know, they remember like I was nice, and he listened to me, and you know, we had a good time. I even gained a little bit, right? And the bottom line is, it's still a non-judgmental place, right? And it's fun, and it's connection. And who doesn't love one-on-one attention, right? You know? So you know what? Let me give him a call, and that happens all the time. Right. People reach out. >> Wow, so you're saying that from a young age, they're learning that it's okay to process emotions, talk about it. >> what I do with kids is I don't do pure only like play therapy, let the kid just plays for 6 years, and just reflecting, oh oh I love how you threw a brick at my wall, and now I have no wall. So I I'm not going to do I I'm more in all the connection, but also also some skill-based as far as like I do help them learn about emotions, and behavior, and and relationships, and connect them, bring in the parents, so it's powerful work. It's powerful work. >> Impressive. Um yeah, it's amazing. Um >> You ask good questions, I will tell you, you know? Like uh I couldn't have prepared better questions myself. Like I think you would have wanted to cover, so >> Amazing, amazing. I appreciate it. Yeah, I hope we covered it all. Did you ever have a case that you felt wasn't something, a person, a situation that you couldn't help, and you had to pass it on to somebody else? Definitely. >> Absolutely, absolutely. It definitely happens, and not everyone could see everyone, you know, for whatever reason. Um it's pretty rare. In other words, most people who reach out to me, you know, it could be there where did their research, or they already know we're a good fit, right? Cuz there are different styles, right? Like, you know, some people it's only somatic or they don't talk, they just want to focus on the body, you know, there are different styles, but um so most people do, you know, pretty well, but yeah, not everyone's a fit. So, it usually is, but if it's not a fit, like, no one could do everything, right? And and for that reason, it could be either things are coming up for the person, you know, could be they don't specialize in that area, there are very specialized areas as well. Um not everyone could be like top top specialists in every area, and if that's the case, um it's really not Yasha's a professional to like keep them on if they're doing damage to the person. So, you doing to have a conversation, you're going to say, you know, uh you know, I really want to discuss with you, you know, maybe another idea, and what's more is I'm going to help you find someone really good, cuz that's what we want to do. We don't leave people in the lurch, you know? We'll find you someone. >> Yeah. I posted on Instagram that I'm going to be meeting with a therapist for the podcast, so >> Uh-oh, don't tell me that some murderous questions that came in or anything like that. >> Yeah, so I I allowed people to put in questions, so we're going to check out a few of those questions. Um people were asking somebody asked, "How do you How do they deal with asking for money when they know the client is struggling financially?" >> Oh, wow. I hear I hear that. Yeah, it's it's it's a tough one. Um so, I don't want to sound like a a businessman, cuz I'm not, I'm a therapist, right? But, um you know, again, so that that is really the all discussed in the beginning, right? In other words, if someone reaches out, they know how much like if there's a a rate or if it's there there is a difference in private practice versus a clinic, you know, so someone's coming to a private practice, so then, you know, they know how much the the fee is. You know, before they start, right? And sometimes, you know, people could ask for a sliding scale and pay less, and there are organizations that help, you know, to pay for therapy. So, there are options out there, um but if a person can't, which sure, you know, therapy can be expensive, right? Sometimes the pressure and the stress of paying is more than they're going to gain from the therapy, right? So, then don't go. It's not worth it and there are there's there are good clinics. I mean, there are people who take insurance, you know, even my place we're thinking about taking insurance down the line is something we're seriously considering. And it's for this reason, it's to be able it's insurance could be a headache and it's a lot, but it's to be able to help the other 90% of people who >> Wow. >> you know, so we're thinking about that. But, you know, yeah, it's at the end of the day though, um the reality is the reality, you know, you know, private practice there is a fee involved, you know, so yeah, there is, you know, >> Yeah, and probably want to be paying somebody because they want you want them to really help them and feel good with their help. >> For for sure. So, it's a real issue and we do feel like really really bad at the end of the day. So, I personally I try to keep my rates actually, you know, a little below everybody else. You know, I can't undercut too much cuz then I get yelled at and it has to be be serious, but I always I go up a little bit when I have to, you know, and people are like, "No, no, no." It's not a serious >> Trying to be reasonable. >> We really try. >> Um somebody's asking, "What do you think about developmental trauma?" >> So, yeah, the developmental trauma, complex trauma. So, what do I think about it? I think it's horrible, you know, it's terrible. [laughter] >> What do the what does it mean? >> goes to So, So, trauma which which starts like at a at a very young age when a person was a child and in the home, you know, let's say there was any form of abuse, >> Mhm. >> you know, or there was let's say it could be neglect, emotional neglect, it could be physical abuse, it could be sexual abuse. So, anything when a person is still developing, so to speak. So, it's it's so hard because first as an adult like we could deal with some stuff, we're a little bit built up assuming we met some of those developmental stages, right? Sort of on the ball, yeah. But, early on it's it's it's so hard because, you know, imagine a young child, right? And, you know, they don't know anything. Like, back to your point, there's what does a child know, right? You know, and then if in that book if if you know there's any kind of trauma or abuse or neglect, right? Whatever it is they're getting screamed at, blamed, critical, you know? And then what are they supposed to do, right? They don't know what to do, right? Yeah, and they they really are powerless. They for sure feel powerless for sure. So that's really what it refers to usually. And yeah, so it's it's it's >> has to be processed. What's the way to go about it? >> yeah, again there's no there's no of course one size fits all. If someone is doing happens to be doing really well and like they were tremendously resilient and they're doing okay, I'm not going to tell them no, you have trauma, right? You know? But yeah, usually yeah. Usually if if someone experienced trauma, depending of course how serious it was, how pervasive it was, was it how alone they were, you know? Was there anyone at any point in their life? Yeah, it's it's it's definitely a difficult partial for sure. >> Yeah. Somebody says um you might want to try discussing your unhealthy amount of confidence. I guess for me for me for me I think it means >> then maybe it's me. Um uh >> Do you think I have a unhealthy amount of confidence? >> I I didn't think so, but I'm [laughter] open to feedback, you know? If that's what they think then I'm open. You know, listen, I'm I'm always open to feedback. You know, positive feedback is great. Constructive feedback that's more important, you know, for sure. >> No, I'll leave that up to you. You want to what you think? >> I have people criticizing me all the time and I always say it's like I always say when when you criticize whether you're right or not, it just shows the kind of person that you are. Yeah, maybe I'm wrong, maybe not. I just I recently posted a video of I was sitting outside eating lunch. It's a healthy lunch. And I was sitting there and I I didn't have my cap on. And I wasn't I wasn't focused on I just had came out of the pool. It became a whole conversation. People saying miss it and I you know, and I carry your responsibility cuz people watch me. And I was back in the days I it used to really bother me. It used to really almost turn you know push me into depression. But now I was just like I was like laughing at it. I was like, "Wow, look at how people This is Look at the way they speak. Look at the Somebody was like, "Oh, you need a doctor." Like Look at the way people speak. And And that's why to these people I give them back the most love because obviously something is not okay. Like for this person with the confidence was asking a nasty question. Who's Who's You know what I'm saying? Okay, I can choose to get hurt. Yeah, it bothers me. I'm not I'm a human being. But just think about them. How bad are they? They They have to be doing really really bad right now to to go and ask a question like this to make an insult. I mean, they say HP HP, right? Hurt people hurt people. >> That's And that's And that's what I was just going to allude to as far as like I don't know. There's There's definitely a thought out there is like if something bothers you, right? That means that there's something else. If you're judgmental to someone else, then somewhere inside of you that's something that you have to work on, right? Otherwise, it wouldn't bother you in the first place. I don't know what it's called. So, I try to keep that in mind cuz we all feel judgmental sometimes. As much as we work on it, we're human, right? We have judgmental thoughts. Why is this person doing that? Sure. Um but you know what I was like, "Okay, 1 second. Like Where's that coming from, right?" Or Yeah, like 1 second. I have that. You know what I mean? I just did that 10 minutes ago, right? And now I'm right? So, yeah. So, yeah, I think we want we want to be careful as far as like, you know, um listen, those of us who are on social media definitely are opening ourselves up to, you know, some of that, right? You know, for sure if they have a little bit thicker skin, but um yeah, you know, criticism. We have to be I think we have to be so careful as far as, you know, critical comments and judging and so on and so forth. If someone does have feedback, I would just suggest asking, "Is it constructive feedback? Where Where it coming from? Do you have the person's best interest in mind, you know? And if yes, I I private message at least, you know, not like public, you know? Um I'll sometimes private someone message like someone on LinkedIn and by the way like hey, by the way, I don't know if you know this, but this might be helpful for you, right? Usually very appreciative, >> Right, right, right. >> So, public, um sometimes I'll join the fray, you know, if they're having a good time in life, but it respectful. It has to be respectful. I think that's fair. >> Um yeah, somebody was asking about relationships that a lot of couples are play they're not faithful to each other. So, to put it mildly, um where does this come from? How in your opinion, how should it be addressed? >> Yeah, yeah, it's uh it's true. There is a lot of Unfortunately, there is there is a lot of that going on. How to address it? So, again, what what's there to say, you know, what's there to say? In other words, >> First of all, where does it come from? Why would a person be in a relationship and then go and cheat? What's what's their emotional need? And also, one of the things that I learned and I'm curious if you can address that is that that thoughts for itself is is common. It's human nature. It's It's natural for a person to be in a relationship for a short time or longer time and think what if I was with that other person or what if What ifs is a normal process of life, yeah? >> Absolutely. >> Um but the question is when somebody does have an impulse, where does that come from? At that point, most people would agree it is unhealthy. If you're married to someone, you got to be faithful to them. So, where does that come from and how can a person prevent it? >> So, yeah, it's a big question. That one already might be a little above my pay grade, you know? It's possible. Um well, what should I say? In other words, like, you know, is it a question is it right or wrong? Is it a question of, you know, how can we, you know, be more careful or faithful in a marriage? You know, is it other people doing it today? Do they want the feedback? Are they open to it? You know, what led up to it? You know, is it, you know, you know, lack of confidence? Is it lack of boundaries? Is it lack of understanding right and wrong? Right? So, there's I think there's a lot of factors on play with that one. Um so, uh I don't want to throw anybody under the bus, also. Um what what would you say? What what what do you think are, you know, uh in your opinion, seem to have uh some thought and insight to that there? >> Thanks, man. >> put you in that in the hot seat or anything, but >> Um no, for I think it's passive-aggressiveness within the relationship. And meaning to say that you you got to choose either or, you know, if if this is the person you choose for life, then you got to be faithful. If you've decided that this is not your person, then then go and take the appropriate steps and and figure it out, right? Um so, I think that that's really where um where cheating comes from, that that people don't take responsibility. So, and instead of taking responsibility, they they're like, "Okay, you know what? Let's ignore it for a minute, but let me still go and act on my impulse or act on my what I think feels like freedom and excitement and whatever." But in reality, if you if you face reality, then I don't think that it's something that um that would happen. So, I think I think it's important that people take responsibility for their life. Again, living presently, because if you're not present, then also, yes, these things can happen. If you're not present, you then technically you you one might say, "I wasn't even at fault because I didn't made a mistake." Yeah. So, it's important to go back to presence and ask yourself really what is it that you want. Because if you think about it a day after you made the mistake, there's no going back, and that's for sure not what you want for that minute of joy and whatever. So, I think my solution would be to people is to live more presently and be able to take ownership of where they are in life. >> I think that's well said. I think I think that's well said. >> Thank you. Let me see if I have more questions. >> Oh, wow. It's uh You know, it's a good questions, you know. There's no fooling around over here. >> Yeah. >> You have a very intelligent and well-read and articulate audience. >> Yeah, people uh >> most part. >> Yeah. But, yeah, it's amazing. I mean, uh yeah. >> Yeah, listen, just to be clear, if someone comes across my desk, I'm going to of course, you know, with non-judgmental. Like, as far as like, you know, that's the thing as far as values, right? You know, if someone if someone's a client, then they're a client. It's not my job to pass judgement, right? You know, and so on and so forth. But, you know, there's a concept of right wrong. You know what I mean? It's two different things, right? In the world, there is right wrong. We say in the friar responsibility, right? So on and so forth. I think we we have to be careful we're not docking from that as well. But, if someone is in my office, it's a little bit of a the story as far as like, you know, at that point, my own values, you know, take a backseat. You know, it's another story. We don't judge. >> Right. >> judge our clients, you know, about them, no matter what, you know? But, as far as right wrong or this or that, I mean, it's it's another story, right? You know, I think it's a very important distinction. >> Yeah, that's that is a challenge, yes. >> sugarcoat it, you know. I think we have to be in life, it's it's a very important we're not diplomats, you know. We don't work for the UN, you know. There's things which are which are right and wrong. There's things which you all have to be better at than stronger and so on and so forth, right? But, yeah, there is a difference in the office and out of the office, you >> 100%. Wow. Um Avrum, anything specific, anything else that you would want to share with the listeners or something that you thought maybe before recording, I want to share this with people so that they know. >> So, I didn't think of anything beforehand. Maybe I should have, you know? >> Yeah. >> Um so, just you know, yeah, whoever is First of all, thanks so much for for having me and for this this conversation, which is enjoyable and stimulating >> Yeah. >> and educational um as well as entertaining, you know? Which is important. Um but yeah, whoever is sure whoever's watching this, whoever's listening to this, thanks so much for for being there and for spending the time and of of checking it out. It's a deeply appreciated. And you know, take care of yourself and whoever you are out there, I don't know and it's always awkward like you're speaking to no one, but you're speaking to everyone, right? Um listen, you're the best, right? You know, whoever you are, you're you're important. Um you're you're very very awesome. You matter. Um so, act as such. Um treat yourself that way. Um and if you ever do need any help or, you know, speak to someone or any phyzic, um not only is there no shame in that, but um it's extremely extremely important and there are people out there. Um even if it can take some doing to get there, it could be a challenge to find the right person. Um go for it. Put in the work and you'll be happy that you did. >> Wow, amazing. All right. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for being here. Really appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> pleasure. >> And guys, thank you for I hope you enjoyed this episode. Feel free to leave comments and we'll try to get everybody answered. Um friendly reminder, if you comment on this episodes, you you enter a $50 giveaway every single week. And if you join the membership for $9.99 a month, there's bonus footage from every episode that we recorded over the last year. So, you can enjoy that and support the channel at the same time. Um like the episode, it means a lot. Subscribe. We're really trying to reach 10,000 subscribers in the next few weeks. So, if you can please subscribe and share it with a friend that can enjoy, means the world to me. My personal information is in the description if you want to reach out. I'm going to put up Ron's information, contact information also in the description so you can reach out to him. And uh good luck. Have a good day.