Kashrus Q & A: Rabbis Menachem Genack & Moshe Elefant

uh before we begin I want to acknowledge the presence of uh of Julie Burman R Julius Burman a former president of the OU and who many the over the last several decades about 30 something years there's been enormous growth in in terms of the the the um you know the out the the the extent of where the U kous which it's writ run so to speak and a lot of it is um is to Julie's credit he was one of of solvic price tum very close to the of many of the other projects including the U press Julie has his imprint on it so uh you know deserves a big um I'm just in terms of just we're going to first give a little bit of an outline about the OU in terms of how we run this operation it ou has grown over the last several years enormously by a factor of 20 um or more um and um one of the reasons for the enormous growth is cerence inspired leadership is because of the the change in the world economy and that is now we live in a global economy um and ingredients come from all from the most places on the globe we have you know one of the ingredients that we use is sodium quinate which is a milk protein so it's derived from milk and to get it efficiently you have to obvious you go to Farms that have milk you know we get milk from cows and companies are looking further and further to find it they went afterwards when the Soviet Union collapsed they were going to Eastern Europe um because they had these you know the Communist system very large centralized um uh herds and then as both either of Supply or price they kept moving further and we sent a person from Israel Morty gromberg who went to Tibet the roof of the world to see the the milking of yak for for this for this purpose why did we go there it's not that we're interested in being in China or Tibet or or these most obscure places in the globe is because in the global economy American companies are looking to the literally to the edge of the of the of the world to bring in ingredients and we have to read it to to to supervise it and we've created large systems in terms of our program our um computer programs to analyze this we have about 9,000 plants now under the OU in over 80 countries we have a million ingredients in our database that have to be evaluated all the time and then of course there are shist that come up in Hala um that we that we that we deal with and uh so that's all part of the mix when I came to the OU there was one and a half people in the cous Department um um my predic was Rabbi lifshitz and Rabbi Reese who was a part timer now we have something um something between 50 and 60 rabbis just in our office um with a lot of staff and so on handling all of these different issues you see both in terms of the the theas from how it's how it's how it's grown I'm going to deal with just one question that comes up all the time then I'm going to ask elephant to speak about some of these things as well one issue that we we hear about all the time there are two issues that we have to confront one is Bish akum which you mentioned yourself you know what systems do we have and this is that's often in people's homes at least where I live is you know observed in the breach um and the the is that food that in order that was cooked made this to avoid at least to avoid um as a Bull workk against interm marriage that that food that is of a high grade which is literally means that can be served at the king's table whether that's actually the standard or not and also food that has to that um can't be eaten Ro it's not generally eaten warw requires that it should be there has to be some Jewish participation in the cooking so I'm just going to deal with one issue which comes up what is what's the definition of that's a very ambiguous phrase all can mean one of two things it could mean it could be interpreted to mean literally something that's served at a king's table so it means in extraordinary High you know very high grade or that would mean something in our contemporary context something you know sered but junk food for example would be excluded potato chips and things like that or mean that it's not an inferior grade it's something that you know you wouldn't even be embarrassed to eat or to serve and and then potato chips would be included in that issue so R Schwab I once had a discussion with r Schwab about this and he thought that Allah he said that he once heard he asked the Kish about this and the K said that he thought means literally served it means not what literally served in a uh King's table but something that that even a king could eat because the the issue that was dealing with as about is whether you can eat sardines because um The Joint used to send out cans of sardines and said no it's also it's also so said but many thought it was including obviously difference of opinion about this so he asked him but what does mean so says I the Ken for England the king of England for FR for breakfast sardin he also eats sardin so there are different opinions and these the kind of issues that we deal with all the times I just want to tell you the U's position is and this is with after consultation with the with he thought it was more lenient position was was the correct one it meant that it was as it sounds means something that is served um you know at a king's table means something that's a high grade but something that is potato chips or not a high grade would not be included in the is of bisham having said that we set up systems in factories um sometimes computerized to make sure that the Jew lights the fire the Mash lights the Fire or the um and if it's set up for B we set it up also on occasion which we did for tuna fish at the request of who was then the rabbi of Israel to make sure that that that actually the mash is not just lighting the fire which is the lency of the ra which is good for asazi but we set up a system also for um for that would be acceptable to them as well these are the kind of things that we deal with and that we juggle to try to make it that it's something that is UN a high standard universally accepted for I just want to give you one other example then I want to introduce RAB elephant um one other example is in terms of um you know that there's a very big dispute about what the definition of k is the P but there's a lot of misinformation about this the PES was of the opinion that our milk now in America he doesn't speak about America he you know he was here before America but the says that if that it's not there was a specific Isa there was aash a concern that maybe the milk that that came into the into the milk stream was came from a non koser animal whether they milk pigs or trayers or whatever um and that milk would be forbidden y so therefore said that you you should always have a Jew who knows what the source is to make sure it's but it's not that the milk that they made that it's also it was that's the opinion of the and the said based on a reading of of aashi which the thought was not correct but no they made a that all even if there's no that if not you all the milk is so there are those who for this those who are make like the it's interesting to know this is not generally known but in his CH held like the Len so therefore all the milk in America without cha according to the Kish is permitted um I once spoke to the to kki son about kki and he said that's I said that that's of course that's what he said and in his chis he interestingly says that r once when he was Consulting with it and said I don't think you should print this CH so because you know and this writes all of this in the shap of the he says but said no I'm going to print this CH and he did print it he thought it was m so um but finds had even a more elaborate header namely that even according to the thought nowadays since there's government inspection in the United States and regulation all of that is the equivalent even according to the of I mentioned this because there are disputes but how does the OU take care of this so we when anything is made on Dair equipment we will always designate it as UD sometimes de dairy equipment because even according to to if you didn't hold like the many of these things would be permitted because we consider all the milk to be permitted and it would be maybe not by not it would wouldn't be a problem um and it would be but since we're concerned about about those who are mock about like in we always will designate to let people know if it's you know that that even though the standard is not but if it's not so everybody could use it if there's a Dair component or something even that would be that would normally according to the the lenient opinion thees would be we always make sure to designate on our labels thank you Rabbi ganak um it's a little hard to speak about Rabbi ganak in his present Mi of I when I when I think ofak you know we work very very closely together not just the many hours we're in the office together but many hours when we're not in the office together we've traveled around the world together you know what but the one thing I I'd like to point out and this really helps Define what our OU cashous department is really all about there's a lot of talk a lot of talk especially lately about the United Nations and certainly the United Nation does not represent a place that is Friends of our people but when I think of United Nations I don't think of the UN because who would want to think about them I think about the ukis department and it's a kesem to walk in to the ukash Department what raak has been able to accomplish is that as he said we have between 50 and 60 Rabon I'm not speaking about the literally hundreds and hundreds of around the country and around the world that work for us but just this our office where we have between 50 and 60 Rabon and all of these Rabon come from all the yeshivas that we all are so familiar with Lakewood andir and every Yesa there's only one there are only two requirements R asks of us is that we be really three and that's really what we've been able to put together he's been able to put together and that's why I believe we barem been so very very successful in set and certifying hundreds and thousands of products all around the country and around the world I I want to speak just about a number of points quickly because these are questions that are very often asked and also represent misconceptions RAB ganak mentioned that Mr Burman um is here and I still remember when I was interviewed for my position during a Sarah she made chuba in 1987 barab gak and H Raba of 1987 by Mr Burman in his office and after I joined the OU the world of cashis I'm talking on the marketing side was changing and there was an emerging of what is known as many the the community the H Community was growing and they wanted a buy product with their supervision certification on it at that time the OU had a policy in place that the OU did not certify dual supervisions there were some minor exceptions but if you wanted to be OU certified you canot be certified by anyone else at the same time but the OU which is a perfect the U Cashers Department which is a perfect blend of the ronam and the balab batam working together recognized the change in the market and recognized that that was a market that could not be ignored that was a growing and continues to be a growing market and how are we going to service them so under some very strict conditions that we keep until this very day and I can mention them briefly we will only do dual supervision with a that is a reliable but most importantly to the conversation that I'd like to have today is we will not be a the OU is not a rubber stamp the U does not represent what we know that this hash does a good job and is very and has very fine and therefore they they're entitled to put on the OU symbol that doesn't happen and therefore any product that you see the OU on whether it's a wine whether it's a meat or it's a candy or any other product that has both the OU and another supervision on it the OU is involved in the supervision just this afternoon we received emails about one of our ronam his name is Rabbi Miller lives a mon just spent the week last week in Uruguay in South America inspecting that these have also but that doesn't mean that we didn't send our own representative to do our own supervision and so is the case in wine which also very commonly has another H but that doesn't prevent us and not only doesn't prevent us we very much require our own representation in supervising these establishments the second po issue I'd like to raise um I I know was part of the agenda so we'll speak about it briefly and that is Kus in America versus kasus in Israel when I speak about Kus in America versus kasas in Israel I I really have two areas to discuss one is again what and who is the OU in ER so again it's important to point out that the OU in ER where we certify remember gak just told me the other day he he he got the exact number that we certify 200 plants in Israel again is not a has most of the facilities that we certify in Israel the vast majority are supervised by the bat many are also certified by Rabbi Rubin but that doesn't mean that we don't have our own staff in Israel we have an office in Israel and we do our own inspections allbe it maybe not as often as we would be certif as we would be visiting a place that has no other there's no reason why we need to duplicate effort you know I always say many years ago there was a small F spice Factory all the way up in the North of Israel in AO it's not even open anymore it was a small spice Factory that had 35 employees all together and they had nine Haas they didn't have just nine they had n so you could understand you have a small Factory with it's going to be a recipe for a lot of friction and that's exactly what happened but now I had a problem all these MIM couldn't get along and there was nobody in Israel who can make peace between all nine of them because everybody in Israel was was assigned to a certain group so everybody was n so they asked me because the OU doesn't get involved in this Petty politic to come to Israel to try to settle this m and I went and the U was bar helpful in settling the issue there the point I make is that we even though there are so many hhas and so many factories in Israel we still remain independently involved in all of those facilities but number two the question that's always asked and I don't know if we're going to go into the details but one of the differences I would say the stalk difference between the OU and our position here in the United States and around the world versus the raban nut in Israel you know the the most commonly asked question is because bar everybody's traveling to Israel where can I eat what can I eat it's a very hard question to ask and we're not going to answer it but what is the difference between the OU versus the rabut the OU certainly not a private business a communal organization as youve certainly noticed today but the OU doesn't have to give any it doesn't want to give and therefore we're very serious about our standards we're very serious about how we give as and every company that we certify has to sign a contract and every company that we certify has to agree to unannounced visits by our and every company we certify has to agree to only use the ingredients that we tell them with the stipulations that we tell them to follow and therefore if the company says well rabbis this is not for us so we say then it's not for us it's not a sh in Israel it's much more complicated because the raban is really part of the government and every company is really entitled to H and becomes much more complicated for them to decline giving H much more than we we don't ever have a problem declining H I really have to say and I see Mr svitz standing here as well a former president of the u a former he was also a president and chairman of kasis but to the credit of the U balaba in the close to 30 years that I'm at the OU I don't recall one situation where U balabas told us to R you have to give this I actually remember cases where we want to give and they said no so we we we're not obligated to do any HH they have a much greater Challenge and that's why it needs much greater care and precision when visiting Israel the last point I want to make and it's a point that I often make when I have the opportunity to speak to audiences I know the attitude and it's an understandable attitude of people who come to a session people who are interested in knowing about casis people who care about cashus as well that's your job it's the job of the Rabon to give good cashus and therefore will'll be comfortable at home to eat the product that we um that you certify and I have to respectfully tell you that that isn't the way we look at it do we where we look at it very much is that you not just ronam and not just the balat of the OU but you the consumers of kosher food have a lot to say about kasas certainly on the simple level if you see a food that you want certified then you should tell the company you want it certified I always repeat the story that for many years the O Mars Food one of thear of not the largest candy company in the United States did not was not interested in kosher certification they finally were interested in the OU supervision for one reason because they were ice cream companies that were U certified that used to use they used to use Eminem bits for they used to use Eminem bits for their ice cream and they said well they need to be certified because the ice cream is certified our Factory is certified not long after Eminem became certified they came back to the OU the Mars company and they said we want anything that's certifiable to be kosher to be U and we asked them what happened you never were interested in us they said you know in the back of every pack of food that we package there's a 800 number Consumer number and we got a lot of calls after the M&M's became certified and the words I'll never forget the words they use they said those calls were passionate people were very excited that we became kosher and that's why we decided we'll go all the way with the OU so you have a lot to say about what will become certified but it's not only what it's also standard you know we could only do as much as we can do and we try very hard but the example you know all of us or many of us may recall that number of years ago there was a situation a terrible tragedy in M where it was a butcher shop owned by a religious chew under a supervision that was Court selling non Kosher meat and poultry bar wasn't all you certified it's terrible that it was certified and what in our opinion was the problem the problem was one problem the problem was that there was no m there on a full-time basis because they relied on the owner who was a from je and we for example at the OU when we certify a restaurant or anywhere any restaurant dairy or fix and certainly any meat establishment have full-time supervision so it's the consumer if you walk in and you don't see a m then walk out and we've invested tremendous resources and contined to do so in making sure that we educate the community about cashis this session being a perfect example but we're open to calls we get calls all the time we have one R who's just devoted to answering consumer questions it's a difficult job answering 300 times a week if Oreo cookies are mil or par we're still not sure if it's not the same person calling all 300 times but it's we are very anxious to work with you I just want to conclude I just want to conclude with a story that I just saw and if I just saw it it must be I should share it there you know this situation it's not new of Children at Risk children not succeeding and whena was the Rob of the town of pan he was approached by parents that had a child Who as a young boy was very successful doing very well in yiva and then as he was growing up he he wasn't the same and they took him to doctors and they took him to all sorts of analysis nobody could pinpoint what happened they came to rer rer said is it possible that he ate non kosher food so the parents said non kosha food in our home it's not possible her said make sure and they started remembering that there was a butcher in town who had not followed the directions of the r and the r removed removed the it was still kosher but he removed the and then there was somebody making a party a Sim and this butcher without haa obviously his meat poultry was cheaper than the butcher who did have a this used that meat instead of the other meat and this child ate from that butcher said that's your problem Kos food has a profound effect on who we are and who our children are and together we can hopefully work together to have this is a question answer session so yeah when traveling on planes not a lot but regular are there things that we need to be concerned about from a c perspective for having a cup of tea and things like that right um yeah the the question is what's how careful does a person have to be I'm just rephrasing it you know while flying on a on a airline in terms of food food that's given to them so in terms of the coffee or tea um this is I'm just make it a broader issue not just in terms of Airlines you know there's a the Starbucks which happens to be under the OU now um um um the the Chicago abinal Council put out a a a suggestion that people should be careful about buying Starbucks in current stores even though the coffee is fine because star guts in most stores now has begun to to up to increase its its offerings and it also has now sandwiches which are not Kosher they wash them all together and you know that was their suggestion it's a good suggestion but he ID is probably mut because all what you know what you what you would be offered at the end would probably be something that would be bottle in terms of Airlines similarly I mean first of all if suing that they're giving you to in a paper cup and everything is throw away the likelihood is that it's okay they have standards in the you know the coffee bins that they have so those I think are are okay the the the the general problem in terms of what they offer on the plane you know so that you look at the thing the OU or whatever you know supervision that's reliable good recently SE a grocery store and I bought a b of Arizona drink you on the back it was called blueberry green tea diet I was horrified later it was tasted pretty good I was horrify looking at the ingredients to discover there's not one drop of any kind of blueberry in the ingredients everything's artificial whatever but there was a picture of beautiful blueberries on the label I think that's gas D why does the O you allow such a cuz I wrote them a letter and what did they respond they said the higher up people are looking into this right okay so you know you I don't know I don't think that's frankly I mean if you if you written the letter to me I don't think that's P gavas that's called marketing but I mean but marketing um is maybe as posit on gas but just in ter but I think it's a good thing to to focus on you know when you buy a product especially flavors flavors are something enormously Hally Hally sensitive because it's a Vier and they're not bottle we have a special section two people actually who deal with flavors Rabbi Wick in my office and also Rabbi newberger because there are components to flavors that are that you know you wouldn't expect that can have an impact on the on the flavor like civet which comes from the civit cat or Castor that comes some beavers or oil of cognac so flavors you know companies create these delicious things with different flavors I think people know in general you know what it means they don't think they're putting actually blueberries per se blueberries may be a component that they extract from blueberries I'm just giv in terms of your example I don't know the specific but it's not blueberries that they're squeezing you know in their backyard and putting in so I I I think you're you know the world you're living in Reber Goodman is a little naive to think that that's what they were doing but I I don't know if that's really NE St I just want to say one other thing but more generally in terms of what U's responsibility is we get calls this is just a correlate of your question you know how do you give supervision to this it has so much sugar it's has sodium it's that healthy this we're not experts in that area we're just giving in terms of what the product is koshar all those other issues including with you know marketing issues or gastas and so the the we really rely on the on the government agencies that that that have the expertise to to evaluate these kind of things into the healthfulness of products and so on we usually this first time I actually got this kind of good but the the issue about healthfulness of you know how do you give supervision to this product it has it's junk and has this and that it may be true may not be true you know I'm not again we're not in position to evaluate that and we don't make an evaluation about the OU only tells you that in terms of the castra standard that and the implementation that that we we stand behind that of the equipment so milks well actually at some of the soy milks we we've started to do it you know um but the question is yeah the question is why don't we you have more use of the de and the truth is we've been very reluctant to do it because for two reasons but but we our position is beginning to change now and I'll tell you how it's changing the the reluctance was you know the more symbols that we put on that are confusing to people so now de we have to remember the OU is sold throughout the 50 states and you know and many many countries out the world and it for the more symbols that we put on sometimes it can get very confusing for the average consumer now the de is important for a person who wants to eat it after you know it's a not by not so you can have it within within you know immediately after not immediately but after eating fles and there's a value to that but but it's confusing to a lot of companies and as rabi elephant mentioned before the most a shiler in the United States now day is about Oreo cookies is it power or not and the and the answer is that the standard Oreo the standard Oreos are at this point power that could change but it still says UD and but there are those you know some of the combination perations of the some of the oros are not necessary but the standard Oreo that you get we we still tell you know when people call the office it's pav even though it has UD but it's interesting why do we why does it still have an UD because the company the bisco that produce Oreos doesn't want in that say oh you because if it changes its formulation it doesn't want to have to throw out its millions of dollars that has in inventory and labels so they will not change it but we've changed our policy and been more flexible in this respect because of consumers like you that have asked that if a company wants it to say de and we know that that in fact it's only Dair equipment we will now list it as as de but otherwise it's going to be de UD um because first of all it it's it's another level that we have to affirm that there's no Dairy ingredient not that's only not not just an issue of and that the equipment is all clean and so on and that's another level that we don't necessarily you know for for this for this incremental value about not by not getting involved but because but soy milk and things like that then let's say for children we we've been moving already over the last few years designating it either as de or Sayang daing equipment again when the company when the company is asking us we are now beginning to list it as de no but but no just to just to follow up on the chocolate um I know it was it wasn't actually the question wasak was just responding to the 's position on De and the question was what about chocolate chips are they just de or are they really power or they really deir um it wasn't actually an OU product it was a okay product Trader Joe chocolate chips but anyone who's familiar I don't think time allows us to go into the details but if you walk into Chocolate Factory the ingredient that chocolate is allergic to is water you know you'll ever if you'll ever notice in the summer your chocolate gets sort of discolored the reason it gets discolored the reason it gets discolored is because it comes in contact with humidity with moisture and therefore chocolate factories are very very reluctant to allow any real cashing to take take place in their Factory so even bittersweet chocolate or the chocolate chips are really Dairy because those that equipment wasn't cured that's not the isra isn't good bring from America then it's SP you know it's hard to answer a question like that because you know it's not something you heard from RAB gaku me so it's hard for us to defend what somebody else who probably doesn't know what they're talking about said but but but but the question is a fair question and I want to answer it on two levels first of all I didn't say also when I spoke about the OU in Israel not only is the OU in Israel in our opinion a great H if anything the OU in Israel has stand higher standards that we don't have here in the United States I'll give you two examples gave the presentation about that we're not M certainly everybody knows on in the United States in Israel where M on is one there are one or two exceptions where it's very clearly noted another example is yosan the OU outside of Israel is not m is not careful that all the baked products or any product that comes with an ingredient from the grains is y and Israel we are mid that everything should be Yos so certainly we feel that our Supervision in Israel is of a very high standard so but let's talk no no no no no no it's okay it's it's okay we not we don't get offended that quickly if we did we couldn't be in this business um but but what I do want to say but what I do want to say is you know Israel first of all the OU has had some difficulty in getting proper Staffing in Israel which has has been and we used to have ruin from rovot who was very well known but then he went off and made his own as so people thought that represented a change but it didn't and the other thing is unlike the United States when someone goes to the store in the United States to buy a product I recognize that not everybody buys from every haa but that's because you feel that this hash is reliable this as is not reliable you know when you go to Israel shopping it's like you're going to an election and and I I I use this supervision because I'm affiliated with this political party I'm I'm Aid I'm a msag I'm AI so it's it's a much more political environment in general Israel is much more political than the United States and the OU maybe doesn't fit in great into that political scheme I just just put your observation want say we hear this all the time is the OU in Israel the same as the OU in America but you know in one word yes I have a question you explained before that because it's getting bigger we have you have to change now my question to you is are you planning or in the states to be more a little bit or at all if yes when if not when the answer the answer the answer is no is the OU looking to become more the answer is no I mean well if products that saw and they interested but you see I just want to explain s about what U did because it was actually a revolution in America precedes any other people in this room but I remember when I was growing up not such ancient history but you know in the 1950s it was not so much there weren't so many products that you could easily buy so what did we do we used to look at the at the rapper and if it didn't say official on it we knew it was okay but what the U did was make for the average American Jew right not the not the person in borach but for the average Jew in America able to keep kosher at the same price essentially that everything else he he buys this because how this happened but major companies throughout the United States Proctor and Gamble and Nestle and and so on and so forth um produc brought it to the OU as a symbol for their marketing reasons because the E both a service to our community but also because they thought there was a niche market that they were interested which was this niche market beyond the kosher market that's the Jew we're interested in serving to make sure that and and by the way the guy in Bur Park everything that he eats almost everything is posited on the OU system all the basic ingredients whether it be you know oils or or emulsifiers or or flavors all of them started under under the OU and that's why they coordinate all their activities with the OU and the real expertise that exists in the United States for this whole framework it started at the OU I just want to add to what ranak said I know we have very little time left the last time the BBA was here in the United States the last time the belba was here in the United States he asked us RAB gak and myself to come see him and we came to see him and he says you know he's heard all about the OU and he's heard how positive the OU is and the B to the OU and he said the same thing you said he he said you know maybe it's time for the OU to now become only and answered him I was sitting right next to him raak answered him and he said the OU was not just built for the Jews in Brooklyn the OU is also built for the Jew in Texas and the Jew in Texas won't they won't send milk because they won't send two cases of milk to Dallas and he also deserves tee kosher can I add to my question