Wine Uncorked: Mevushal, Vineyards, and the Kosher Harvest

So, this is because it's so large, and this scale is just [music] so tremendous, we had to bring 44 mashgichim or 44 kosher workers to handle a 2 and 1/2 week production run in California. [music] I know there's a certain kind of liquor that has a worm inside of it. Is that Is that kosher? Can it be kosher with the OU ever certify a bottle with a worm inside of it? That's a good question. I think wine, kosher wine, has been a big contributing factor in the sanctity of Klal Yisrael, the sanctity of the Jewish people. Welcome to Kippi and Kosher, the podcast where we go behind the scenes of the kosher world. I'm your host, Rabbi Ezra Sarna. Today, we're sitting down in the OU kitchen [music] with a seasoned veteran in the world of kashrus. Rabbi Nachman Rabinowitz is the OU's resident expert on kosher wine and alcohol. He oversees the incredible scale and complexity of large kosher wine programs in secular wineries across the globe. It's an absolutely fascinating conversation that [music] will completely change the way you look at the wine on a Shabbos table. Thank you very much for joining us. [music] Thank you for having me. My father-in-law always tells the story that when he was getting married, so he was tasked, even though he was the groom, he was tasked with buying the liquor for the wedding. So, his friends told him, "Go to Dubin's Liquor and tell them how many people you have, and then, you know, they'll tell you how much liquor you have. And whatever they tell you, get half." So, my father-in-law says it was 1982. He went to Dubin's Liquor. He told them how many he was having at the wedding. And they said, based on the numbers, he should get eight cases of liquor. That's what they usually provide, recommend for weddings. So, he bought four. And he said, "It was 1982. In those days, he returned two and a half cases after the wedding was done." And that was 1982. Now, I think whenever you go for Shabbos, generally I find the hosts know many different brands of wine, different kinds of wine. It seems like wine and liquor has has taken a new uh space, a new role in uh from eating. So, you are you're responsible for a lot of that, I think. >> [laughter] >> So, if we can start, if you could just break down what is yayin nesach, what is stam yeinam, and are they related? Excellent. Excellent question. In antiquity, religion was a very central part of life. Whether it was our Jewish religion or whether it was pagan ritual, religion was part and parcel of, you know, most activity. And wine played a very significant role in [snorts] that because wine was used as a libation. It was used in the Beis Hamikdash. It was used as for nesachim. It was poured together with other korbanos, other sacrifices that were brought. But at the same time, it was used by pagan idol worshippers to pour in honor of their deities. There's a concept, it's a biblical concept, of takrovas avodah zarah. That means things which are used to worship idols are forbidden. They're forbidden from consumption. They're also forbidden even to benefit from. As a result, when you lived in a society that was constantly involved with the deities, constantly involved in pouring or sacrificing in honor of the deities, wine was used consistently on that basis. And therefore, it's biblically forbidden for us to drink wine which was poured for avodah zarah. That's what you referred to as being yayin nesach. >> And uh let me pause you there. Does that exist nowadays? Do they still worship that way? It's an interesting question. >> [sighs and gasps] >> In our Western civilization, the argument has been made that yayin nesach, you know, which was worshipped, which was sacrificed, doesn't really exist. So, what we have today is the second term which you mentioned, which is stam yeinam. That means general wine which is from the nations, not um specifically made kosher and not specifically made by Jewish people. Now, the reason why that was prohibited was for a second reason. Wine is not [snorts] so much used in religion today, although we still use it, you know, we use for wedding, we use it for kiddush, to usher in the Shabbos and Yom Tov. As we exit from the Shabbos and Yom Tov, we use it by a bris milah. >> [gasps] >> But it's not that much used in the secular world. It is used, obviously, to drink in the context of socialization, fraternization. And there was a concern that we should not allow foreign cultures to mix with our own. We have to have our own identity. We have to have our own sense of self. That's b'kum shum chasnus, as the Gemara calls it. That means we don't want to bring things that will lead to intermarriage, to assimilation. And therefore, they said wine, and not just wine, other types of um fraternization that would occur in the context of a meal, we try to look for and they picked on specific issues in which they brought separation between ourselves and others. So, yes, of course, we intermingle with the with the the the host culture in the diaspora, but there are limitations to that which have really preserved us over the millennia. So, let me ask you, on a technical sense, you have wine, assuming it's already wine. What makes it stam yeinam? If it was handled by people not of the Jewish faith or people even of the Jewish faith, but who are lacking in their level of observance, um so, that would be something which is stam yeinam. It's wine which is, you know, nondescript. That's really, I think, the way you can best define it. It's wine which was not supervised, was not handled by observant Jewish people through its processing. And is it only pouring? Is it only touching? Is even if someone passes a bottle of wine, what's the uh geter exactly? It's more than just passing a closed bottle. A closed bottle which is sealed um has no concern. Um it's when it's poured, if it's when it's touched, if it's when it's uh moved from, let's say, one pouring from a bottle, um movement, um all those are handling restrictions that are applied to to wine. And once wine is moved, is handled in that manner, um it certainly opens questions to the kosher integrity of the wine. And is it only an issue with wine or all the grape flavoring and all the grape juice, is that subject to all the same? So, wine halachically is defined as anything which is crushed. Meaning grapes from which there's a separation of liquid from the solid, from the pulp or from the skin. And that's even before fermentation. Even if it's not alcoholic, even if it's just grape juice, you know, many times people say, "What could possibly be restrictive about grape juice, orange juice, apple juice, or grape?" You know, it's all the same. They don't look at it as being different. Wine, they understand there's a certain, you know, uniqueness to it and a special regard that it has. But in halacha, um [snorts] one would have used for in the, you know, the Beis Hamikdash as a a sacrifice, as a nesach, as a libation, both wine which was fermented and even wine which was not fermented. And therefore, it they're identical in terms of how they're restricted. And all the grape flavoring, is that actually grape? If you see grape flavored popsicles or grape flavored Tylenol, is that actually grape or is that chemicals with some purple dye? More likely not. I I remember when I first uh started in the world of kashrus, I once visited a soda company. And they had a naturally flavored grape soda which was certified kosher. And they had a artificially flavored black cherry soda which was not kosher certified. And when I asked why one was and the other was not, I was told that the naturally flavored [clears throat] grape [snorts] soda had no grape in it, could be kosher, whereas the artificially flavored black cherry did have grape, could not be kosher certified. So, the world of flavors, there are many, many thousands, tens of thousands of grape chemicals. Some which are identified as natural, some which are identified as artificial. The fact that something is natural flavor does not mean that it has natural juice in it. The fact that something is artificial doesn't mean that it doesn't have juice in it. >> What does it mean it's natural flavors? >> The FDA has guidelines for what are considered natural components and which are considered artificial components. They're based on a lot of different factors, but the fact that it has natural juice or not is not not specifically a factor. Wow. Okay, I know in the halachas of stam yeinam that mevushal, whether wine is cooked, is is the major question or the major major decider. Can you just explain that for us? >> Sure. Back in the day, when people used um, you know, wine and grape juice for ritual, they would use only what was considered the best possible, the highest quality type of grape. Um a wine which was cooked was considered inferior because the cooking process would degrade some of the flavors, some of the nuances. Um so, therefore, it would not have been used. As a result, when the rabbis made their prohibitions of wine, they did so specifically for those that might have been used in that context, in the in the worship. And they would not have done it for something which was inferior such as a cooked grape. As a result, anything which was cooked would no longer have the handling restriction. Right. I see. You can't take a non-kosher product and cook it and it becomes kosher. Some people confuse that. That's not the case. It It's something which is kosher is no longer restricted once it has been cooked in that manner. Right. And so, why is it that uh Jewish consumers don't just buy Mevushal wine? Like, why is there such a thing as non-Mevushal um wine with kosher certification? Is there Is there any preference on a Halakha for anything? Is it Is it a matter of taste? So, I would say two things. I would say number one, in the In Israel, they have not adopted Mevushal as a standard. And the reason for that is some of the >> What does that mean they have not adopted? The This which I mentioned, that Mevushal re- relaxes the handling restrictions. >> Yes. That has not been, you know, widely adopted in Israel. Two big maybe more than two great um Halakhic authorities in Israel, one of them Rav Zalman Auerbach and the other Rav Elyashiv, have argued that today's flash pasteurization, which is the most commonly used um way to heat wine, does not sufficiently degrade the wine. If it doesn't degrade the wine, then we cannot relax the restriction. >> Oh, so in other words, of course they agree to the rule of Mevushal, they just hold that what what's done now to wine doesn't qualify as Mevushal. Okay. >> Right. So, that that's one argument and the other um is that the reason why wine which was Mevushal, wine which was heated, is not restricted is because it was considered uncommon. It was not done. You have to remember beverages, um why did they make grape into wine? Why didn't they maintain it as grape juice? There was no feasible way to do that. You could keep it for maybe a week, but then what happens is fermentation will start. That fermentation will turn it maybe into wine, maybe into vinegar, or maybe into some other thing that you wouldn't want to drink. So, there was no way to preserve it. Wine was a way of preserving the beverage. Now, that was considered uncommon. People would not cook the wine. And when Chazal made these types of prohibitions, they did so for commonly consumed items. They would not do so for uncommon or abnormally typical um types of drinks. So, therefore they never Now, the question is today, with technology, with the modern processing, would it be considered typical? And my answer to that would be no. Generally, in the broad world of wine, wine is not pasteurized. Some Some of the sweeter wines um [snorts] may undergo pasteurization um to preserve the product, but commonly not. Wines are not. On the other hand, something like grape juice must be pasteurized because if it weren't pasteurized, it would end up >> wine. >> [laughter] >> Well, wine or something else. It would ferment into something. Um in fact, what's interesting is that in the mid to late 19th century, um the There was a Methodist minister who lived in Pennsylvania who was very much opposed to to alcoholism. And to the extent that he did not want to use wine in his churches, which was common for the time. They used to use it um in the ritual. And he didn't want to do that. So, he said, "We will use grape juice. We will not use wine." Um and he developed He had used from that also that era someone by the name of Louis Pasteur, who was the inventor of the pasteurization method. He borrowed that from France, that method, and he applied it to grape juice to make a grape juice that could be used in his church's ritual that would not be alcoholic. That Methodist minister's name was Thomas Welch. And as you might imagine, >> [laughter] >> what evolved was um the Welch's grape juice company, which is still a very, you know, substantial company in the US market. Wow. And so, in Israel, do the Are the wines labeled Mevushal non-Mevushal? So, in Israel, and this is an area which confuses American consumers because we're, you know, accustomed to seeing one or the other, Mevushal or non-Mevushal on every bottle, which is what we prefer as a kosher agency. However, in Israel, the assumption the default position is that it's not Mevushal. And only those wines which are Mevushal, which by the way are not that that easy to find in the Israeli market. Israelis, for some reason, look askance at Mevushal wine. They feel it's inferior, uh despite what their skin may have argued. Um they feel it's It's, you know, not not on the same level. And the Israeli consumer is not interested in it. And uh therefore it you won't find it that frequently. And it's sometimes even here those wines that come to the US, if it doesn't say anything on it, you must assume it is not Mevushal. Wow. >> Only where there's Mevushal. And the very same wines that are marketed in Israel as non-Mevushal, those very same wines can be marketed in the US as Mevushal because they realize their clientele in the US, um anybody who, you know, a kosher agency that's supervising a restaurant or catering establishment, a wedding, a bar mitzvah, will insist on Mevushal. And the reason for that is that, you know, the waiters and and those who serve at these events will, you know, be non- non-Jews. And uh as a result, to have non-Mevushal wine in that context would be dangerous. Because it's very hard to, you know, to make, you know, to have specific In Israel, again, there are issues. Not to say in Israel there are no no issues that that exist, but they're They have a a system whereby you have special people to pour the wine and sort of maintain um that supervision over it, even by weddings and and that and and those events. And for the non-Mevushal I mean, wine gets better the longer it sits, right? So, you have wine which includes non-Mevushal wines sitting for years. So, there's no overseer of them staring at the barrels for 12 years while they're aging, right? Well, 12 years would be That's more like in the Scotch industry. >> Okay. >> [laughter] >> But yes, there are some wines which are aged for a number of years in barrels. Um anytime you have kosher wine, and even if it's Mevushal, I have to know that this is the wine that we supervised. So, it has to have some kind of a seal to protect it. When it's in a tank, we seal the inlet, the outlet, the top, the bottom, and all different spaces. Um that's how, you know, that it's in that that That's something which when you have seals which are sitting sometimes for long periods of time and they're baking in the sun, those seals, that tape can become brittle and can crack and can fall off, which is a concern for us. So, we have to find, you know, the right solutions that are uh seals that will endure. And that's important in any case. Uh with you whatever you have on then then even after the bottle it's it's bottled, so you have to have the proper capsule on top. You have to have the proper cork, which is it completely tamper-proof, but it's it's considered legitimate enough that nobody's going to bother to open it up and, you know, and replace it and to um it's just not It's not worth anybody's while. That would be considered a sufficient enough hechsher, sufficient enough seal for kosher purposes. So, let me ask you I I think some of the common common questions are a person uh has a company and he has business associates and he gets a gift of non-kosher wine or non-kosher liquor. What is he supposed to do with that? In this area, I think there's maybe a distinction between those of Sephardic descent and those of Ashkenazic descent. The Shulchan Aruch, which is obviously the, you know, the posek for the Sephardic world, and the Beit Yosef, Rav Yosef Caro was um originally from Spain. He ended up in Israel. Um he argued that even though what we call stam yayin today is only rabbinically forbidden, it remains forbidden not just to consume, but also to benefit from. So, when one has that type of a product, you can't benefit. If you gift it to somebody else, that also is a benefit to you because you're you're benefiting from that, you know, his the person receiving the gift. In the Ashkenazic There may be certain ways of, you know, dispensing with it which are Halakhically permissible. Speak to a rabbi um of that community. But for the Ashkenazic world, the Rama, Rav Moshe Isserles from Krakow, he argued that because it is not the same level of prohibition and the whole concept of idol worship really doesn't exist today, he took a more lenient approach and he did allow the sale or the benefiting from wine. So, one could gift it, one could sell it. If you have someone gives you a gift of a $1,000 bottle of wine or more, um that can be a a significant decision in terms of what direction you take. Wow. Okay, so as consumers it's pretty easy. You know, we we look for Mevushal. On the off chance that we buy non-Mevushal, we're careful. But you have the job of making sure that it gets to that point, right? From the grape until the sealed bottle. Is the process of overseeing uh kosher wine, is that easy? Is that hard? And I think most people when you think about kosher certification, you have a mashgiach popping in and popping out. From what you're saying, that doesn't fly with wine. No, not at all. It's a you know, from from the products that probably everyone recognizes are the most intensively supervised would be something like shechitah, you know, meat and poultry, and wine. Those And each one has different levels areas where wine may be more stringent than meat. And obviously, the shechitah is a very, you know, precise um it requires, you know, special expertise and and the the salting. But, wine um from the time like I mentioned, the time that you start separating the juice from the the pulp, from the solid, um the handling has to be exclusively by, you know, shabbos observant Jewish people. So, that you know, can require sometimes very small wineries. You can have, you know, two, maybe three. Um I go like to call them kosher workers. A mashgiach A mashgiach is a supervisor. That's not what we do in wine. We're not just supervising. We are supervising as well, but we're working. We're actually We we don't we don't want to bring in people who are not capable of physical labor. That's why And the OU brings in or the companies have to hire them? No, the OU brings in people. Um I could like I was mentioning sometimes one or two. Um and as many as in the there's a production that happens in one of the largest wineries in the world. And we're not even intending intending to make wine or even even grape juice. We're intending to make grape color. Artificial colors are out and they're replaced by natural colors. And to make natural color, one of the more popular methods is to use grape extract. So, this is because it's so large in this this scale is just so tremendous. We had to bring 44 mashgichim or 44 kosher workers to handle a 2 and 1/2 week production run in California. Because there's so many positions and until we were able to get the grape juice in this case, the navoshal until it was concentrated, which was the method which was used for for bishul, we just had so many positions to fill and scale is just so enormous. We had we had hotels and and shabbos meals and it was a you know, a whole production to get this this group um to to come and and do this this work. I mean, that's very complicated logistics cuz you're talking about a very small window of time. It's not like you're offering people full-time jobs. You have to find people who are capable and willing and who have the time. Yeah, it has to it's very costly. It's it's We have to move people. The wineries are not typically located in Jewish communities. So, we have to bring all these people from wherever we can find them. We have to find qualified people and we have to give them food. We have to give them lodging. We have to provide for their transportation. And they work. They work hard because these are long days. Um we typically do 12-hour shifts. And um you know, that's we do two shifts a day and they work 24 hours a day. Not shabbos, but they work 24 hours a day in order to to achieve that. So, it's it's a it's a big undertaking. It's a lot of logistical um movement to to make that happen. I I mean, I know it's kind of like waiting for an egg to hatch. I mean, they're waiting for the grapes to be ready and then it's all hands on deck. So, is there a month of the year where you don't sleep and you're traveling and you're calling and It extends much more than a month. >> [laughter] >> The fact is the harvest takes place, you know, best of times it happens like Rosh Hashanah time and Yom Kippur time and Sukkos time. We have mashgichim who are actually in grape juice producing facilities over shabbos and over Rosh like, you know, prerequisite to getting the job is you have to know how to blow shofar. Because I'm not going to send somebody to to be in in such an atmosphere who can't be mikayem the mitzvah of tekiah shofar. So, they have to know how to blow shofar. Um but sometimes they are in and you know, they've asked questions of their, you know, rabbis about if you have, let's say, a kolel fellow in Israel who can earn in a 3-month period, he can earn enough to support his family or largely support his family by spending 3 months in the US in such a facility. Um and they said, "Yeah, if that's the way you can support yourself, spend Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and Sukkos." They built sukkahs for them in these locations and that's how they spend their time through this through this period. Is it really worth it for these companies to go through all the expense of hiring new workers and having shabbos meals for them and sukkahs for them and it it Are they going to make that back in their sales having the hashgacha? The success story of OU um in the United States almost defies logic. But, I think at the root of it is the perseverance that we will only eat kosher products and we demand this. And the companies in the big scheme of things obviously does not impact their bottom line significantly enough that this is not worth their while. You realize that companies have tremendous marketing budgets. And when a product is declared kosher, they don't have to market the same way. They don't have to spend the the you know, sometimes millions and millions of dollars on marketing a product because they have this, you know, this consumer, this segment of the of the community which will be receptive to a product which is kosher. So, >> [gasps] >> I I can't I don't understand all the economics behind it, but clearly when consumers want and demand, companies respond to. That's how they That's how they survive. That's how they, you know, succeed in in the marketplace. And the kosher community is a devoted um and uh a loyal um consuming public and [snorts] and can and you know, companies respond to that. And does the OU only give hashgacha to wine um companies here in North America or you're are you're dealing with all over the world? Every major um wine region in the world has OU supervision of wine, whether it's in, you know, France and Italy and Spain, um whether it's even in former Soviet Republic Georgia, um Turkey, believe it or not, has some kosher grape juice productions. Morocco has some kosher grape juice. And not just, you know, in in in the New York and California, but in Washington State, Oregon. We have a winery in Virginia um which is making wine. And every of the 50 states has wine production. Um believe it or not, it exists. Whether large or small scale. Um we're in the Southern Hemisphere in Chile and Argentina and South in South Africa and Australia. So, you know, pretty much wherever the major areas for kosher wine are, we are functioning there. I'm feeling a little overwhelmed right now. Join the club. >> [laughter] >> Wow. And and is the wine making season different in all those countries? Like do you get a break or all of them are all the same time? Northern Hemisphere, Southern Hemisphere? It I would say in the Northern Hemisphere, they're earlier. For example, Spain or sometimes the Southern part of Israel, the Negev, they the season starts earlier. Um even in California, California itself, Southern California starts earlier than Northern California starts. So, there are, you know, but in the Northern Hemisphere, it basically falls out end of August, September, October. And maybe even a little bit into November. In the Southern Hemisphere, it's the opposite. So, it's not Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and Sukkos, it's Pesach. >> [laughter] >> It's So, in It's like a bad joke. >> [laughter] >> It is what it is. It's like your It's like your oven breaking air conditioning. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, seems to always happen. But, that's They didn't tell you. They didn't tell you when you signed up for this job. >> [laughter] >> And it's it's again, but there is activity of wine, bottling of wine, filtering of wine, fermentation of wine, which happens at other seasons. It's those Sometimes wine is kept for periods of time. It's reserved. It's it's aged. So, it's not as if the the wine season, you know, the wine season and the harvest is in within a certain window, but there is activity happening really all the time. So, we rely on flash pasteurization. So, when does that happen? I mean, you take the grapes, you crush them. I'm sure there's a complicated process and then they're pasteurized and then they're put into barrels and then they're put into whatever kind of holding uh container? The answer is all of the above. That can happen at various times. It was traditionally in in the navoshal segment, they used to take wine which was fermented, which was filtered, which was almost ready to bottle, then would do the pasteurization and then they would bottle it. Sometimes they would leave it to rest for a day between the pasteurization and the bottling. That was the most common and probably still is the most common practice. However, um I mentioned before um where we have, you know, over Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur people, some of those operate with what they call a hot break, which means you bring in the grapes and before you destem the grapes, you have machinery that takes off the stems. And then what you and the, you know, branches, whatever else is there, so you're basically left with the grapes. And sometimes they immediately cook it up. They may, for their reasons, for maceration purposes, to get the color out, they may um only do that up to, you know, 130, 140 degrees. For our purposes, we have them raise it up to closer to 190 degrees. So, sometimes bishul happens immediately, even before there's any separation. Um the result of is is you're ending up with a mush, which is really mostly liquid with pieces floating through it. Um there's also a technology which is called flash detente. Flash detente was instituted to sometimes um correct or rectify grapes that have not are not doing well, that have certain problems with them. What they do is through a vacuum heating process, they actually explode the grapes immediately um as they come in. And they put it through this um apparatus, which is an expensive piece of equipment. That sometimes has been used for bishul purposes, whereby the bishul happens immediately, which is actually is a benefit to us because after that it's no longer restricted from handling. Right. So, as much as yes, we have to, you know, we have to keep it secure, we have to know where it is, we have to know that um we have to seal up the tanks, so we know what is the product that we supervised and what is other wine. Um at the same time, handling is not restricted. So, I mentioned I'm already overwhelmed, but sometimes I'll send an email to different members of the OU Kosher asking certain question, and they say, "Oh, this is Rabbi Rubanowitz's question." And has nothing to do with wine. >> [laughter] >> What what else are you involved in in the OU Kosher? Yeah. Yeah, I do it, you know, like I said, a jack of all trades, a master of none. So, I do all kinds of different things. I'm working in the OU for ooh, three and a half decades. So, um I've worked in in many different uh areas, whether it's in bakeries, or whether it's in cheese production, or whether it's in flavors, or you you name it. I've dealt with all kinds of different things, and I have experience in in a lot of different My focus has been a lot with the wine industry, but that's certainly not the totality of of everything that I do in the OU. So, how did you get to the OU? Just give me a bit of your background. Uh well, I'm American born and bred, and both myself, my parents actually are Yankees, all born my my grandparents came to the United States in the 1920s, that's from both my mother and father's side. Um and um my great great grandfather, who was a Hasidic rabbi, was the first major Hasidic rabbis who came to the United States um in 1924. So, um the family has been here, and we you know, identify as Hasidic, maybe I look that way a little bit, but at the same time we're very much, you know, um involved in in in the Jewish community, which um you know, engages the world and as is Americanized, and that's why maybe for me the OU was a sort of a a fit because that's what the OU was. The OU was established in I think 1898, and it was intended for English-speaking American Jews who were Orthodox, and it was meant to support their way of life. Um yes, there were immigrants coming, Yiddish-speaking, and um you know, sort of they came here, they didn't come into the melting pot, but the the OU, I think the Orthodox Union um is addressing the needs of, you know, many Jews of all walks of life in you know, different levels of acculturation in the United States. Um which I maybe brings us back to the um the original topic, which is the you know, the people say that uh this is I think both Jewish sources and non-Jewish sources who say the greatest evidence to a God in this world is the survival of the Jewish people. And we typically think of it in terms of, you [snorts] know, persecution, wars, uh pogroms, um we think of it in in economic terms, how Jews have survived in in all kinds of societies, but I think maybe the greatest miracle of all is surviving religiously and surviving culturally in host countries that are not really and I think wine, kosher wine, has been a big contributing factor in the sanctity of Klal Yisrael, the sanctity of the Jewish people, and the survival of the Jewish people. What has maintained us, why, you know, all all evidence of a people without a nation, without a country for 2,000 years should have somehow blended into larger society, it hasn't happened. And Chazal saw that, and and that's why they keyed in on something like wine um as a as a method of uh you know, preserving us. And are you also a rabbi of a community? Well, like I said, my great great grandfather came to the United States, established a shul in Brooklyn. It's not in the same location, it's in its fourth location, but I'm still, you know, running that same shul in Brooklyn. Um continuation of what was begun generation after generation. So, that's another of the hats that I or shtreimels that we wear. >> [laughter] >> Wow. And how did you uh first start working? Did you just walk up walk into the doors and knock and say like, you know, >> [laughter] >> I'm interested in wine? Well, what happened was I I was after I got married, um I was already [snorts] running a shul at the time. I um needed parnassah because my wife uh was expecting her first child, and I was learning at the time in Yeshiva Torah Vodaas, and Rabbi Yisrael Belsky, who was the vice chair of the OU, um I you know, knew him very well and studied by him as well. He was helpful in and you know, through Rabbi Genack, um in and in finding this position for me here in the OU. Wow. And I'm still here. They haven't thrown me out yet. >> [laughter] >> I don't think they're planning on it. So, let me ask you some other things that I think consumers have a lot of questions about. Um can you distill, and pardon the the term, the issue of sherry casks? Oh, we're going into a whole new new topic. >> [laughter] >> They can edit it out if they want to. That's a podcast unto itself. Sh- sherry is a fortified wine from Spain. It's a wine which has added to it additional alcohol. Typically, wine stops fermenting at about 14, maybe 15%. Uh occasionally, you can get it up to 16, 17%, depending on the strain of yeast that's used. What happens is the alcohol actually kills the bacteria, the yeast is a bacteria. So, when it reaches a certain level, it stops fermenting because the bacteria is dead. So, how do you bring sherry up to 19, 20% alcohol? What you do is you take some of the wine, and you distill it. Distillation is separating and concentrating alcohol, and then you add that to the wine. The In Scotland, um for some reason, historically, they needed vessels in order to age the wood vessels, and they found out that in Spain, they had all these casks that had been used for sherry, and they started using it, and they found that it didn't just age as, you know, it would have aged in old whiskey barrels, they found that it did something to improve, to enhance it. Why that happens, I've heard a lot of different, you know, suggestions as to why that is, um but um sherry became popular, port, which is similar type of product from Portugal, and also some of the sweet wines like Sauternes. These barrels happen to do well with whiskey. So, what they do is they age the whiskey for a period of time, whether it's 10 years, 11, 12, 14, 15, whatever it is, years in ex-whiskey barrels, and then for a finishing touch, they'll put it into a sherry cask or port cask for a period of year, maybe 2 years, plus more, and they find that that finishing enhances the product, and they advertise this, they're proud of the fact that they do this, and and they market the product as accordingly. Problem is, the sherry, the port, the Sauternes are not kosher unless they specifically went out of their way. I know the Kedem company does, they send port casks, which are kosher, for aging of their own products. Um there are some others that do this as well, but it's a very limited um offering. So, when you have um whiskey aging in wine casks, which are not kosher, so how does that impact this kosher status of the whiskey? So, um [laughter] I would say this, the the OU would not kosher certify a product that would sit in a non-kosher wine cask. Um and as Rabbi Belsky said it like this, b'di'eved, post facto, is it kosher? Technically, likely, yes, because the various halachas, there's bittul, there's nullification of the wine in the whiskey. That's that's probably, again, I don't know that everyone agrees with that under all circumstances, but that's that's probably a an accurate statement. But he says, "They don't need the OU to to we don't certify products on the basis of bittul. We don't do that by a cookie, we don't do that by a a glass [snorts] of soda, we're certainly not going to do it by a whiskey. So, when we certify, we'll only certify a product that does not have those types of casks altogether." This is an area where many people uh took a position where whiskey is whiskey is kosher, and there were assumptions which were made. Um is there reason for someone to take a stringent position? I would say yes, and I could go into some detail, but um leaving that aside, there is a reason to take a more stringent position, but at the same time, I can't be critical of anybody who takes a lenient position because likely the product is is going to be kosher. But I know I've gotten a lot of questions lately about beer and kosher flavors and and and the beer certification and the OU saying that OU events should only have kosher certification. Where's the confusion over there? It seems like it seems like it's pretty simple uh rule that the OU is saying you can't without certification you don't really know what's kosher what's not so you should have kosher certification. So again, with the beer probably even less issues than with whiskey. Beer was assumed to be kosher because it's you know, malted barley and it's hops and it's yeast and you know, what could possibly be wrong with it? That was an assumption and it was probably a valid assumption for the most part. Then all of a sudden came microbreweries and they started experimenting with all different types of things. They would add some lactose which is a sugar which will convert into alcohol and it sometimes gives creamery creamy uh texture to the beer and they found that people like that. Sometimes they use grape juice which was not kosher unless specifically made as kosher and they started using flavors and all kinds of you know, here in the United States people will not buy a soda unless it has a hashure because the flavors compound flavors potentially could have issues. Um you know, once you start using flavors in beer it's like any other flavor you know, beverage and so no reason to to differentiate. So you know, it's the large beer companies the standard typical beers are probably haven't changed much but because you have so many in fact the OU I think more recently um had an application from a company which we discovered was using 30% lactose in in a beer product. You can a sugar will convert will ferment into alcohol. So you can use the starch converted into sugar converted into alcohol of the malted barley. You can use other things. So once you have um you know, all these different potential problems and thank God there's also you know, hundreds and thousands of products which are kosher certified. The OU and other kosher agencies the major kosher agencies decided that instead of making assumptions, instead of guesswork um we should take a position. There's enough product available which is kosher which is certified. We should take a position that when we the OU other agencies certify restaurant or certify uh an event in a catered event, we should insist on having a product with a hashure. So let me ask you this. Last week I was in Kiddush and there was a fellow and he said, "Rabbi, [clears throat] why can't the OU just get an OU on this this this uh you know, brand of uh whiskey or liquor?" And the assumption in his question was that the OU can influence companies to get hashgacha. Is that a wrong assumption? The power of the OU this is I think a a more uh general question. The power of the OU is not the OU. It's the consumer. If consumers demand [clears throat] products realize that in every product there's usually I don't know today 800 number probably not. They probably have a website you know, visit our website comment we welcome your comments. Not that many people from the consumer base you know, actually contact the company. So every contact is measured in thousands by them. If we the consumer I say we I don't mean the OU the the consumers were together would demand certain things from companies, they would likely respond. I work with you know, many of the largest um liquor companies. Some of the let's say Diageo or Pernod Ricard. Uh these are you know, multinational companies with dozens and dozens of brands of liquors. The attitude that many have is an attitude which we've taught them. We're going to buy your product with or without the hashure. So they don't feel it. The the liquor company had a lot of Jewish influence and many of the Jews who were in the industry said doesn't need a hashure. And they're still remembering those comments. If the consumer says, "You know what? Doesn't make sense that for spring water we insist on a hashure and for soda pop we insist on a hashure and for cookies we insist on a hashure but we readily buy you know, a product a liquor product which doesn't have a hashure. That you're voting with your feet. I people very often ask about there's a certain liquor. I don't really drink or know so much. My kids know that Purim is a working holiday for me. But I know there's a certain kind of liquor that has a worm inside of it. Is that is that kosher? Can it be kosher? Would the OU ever certify a bottle with a worm inside of it? >> [laughter] >> That's a good question. Um what you're referring to is mezcal. It's a a Mexican uh agave based drink. It's similar to tequila. Tequila's from one region. Mezcal is from a variety of regions. And in a specific area to sort of identify the product as coming from that area they take a worm which is native to that region and they put it into the bottle. Technically speaking tolaim which this falls into that category are what we call nosein taam lifgam. That means that any flavor that it would impart would be a negative flavor and therefore would be permitted. So could you technically drink the the bottle? Don't eat the worm. But could you drink the bottle that the worm sat in? Yes. But it's something that you know, it's not palatable in my mind. But technically it probably would not negatively impact the the kosher status of the of the product. But I think it's it's only a a very limited region that does this in a very limited number of products that do this. >> sent an application yet. I haven't seen one. >> [laughter] >> What's the most exotic place that you've been to in in your travels? Uh that's a tough question. Um Have you been to every continent in the world? No. No, I've never been to Asia. Although we certify wine in in Australia which is uh close to Asia. Um no, I've never been there. We have sent some of our senior wine experts there. Um but I've not been but uh I've been to some continents. One interesting place I I came to um is a country probably never heard of probably most of the world never heard of. It's called Transnistria. Transnistria is a break-off communist portion of the country of Moldova. They identify themselves as being a separate country. You see the sickle and the sickle and hammer the communist sickle and hammer there. And they it's almost like I've been to Soviet Russia when it was still Soviet Russia. This was sort of like reminding me of it. This little strip of land I flew to Chisinau which is you know, Moldova's capital and I went through passport control but when we drove to Transnistria I had to go through another passport control cuz they view themselves as being you know, I don't think the world recognizes them as a separate country. So it was very you know, fascinating like going back 50 years to back to the you know, a a Soviet uh republic. Um but they do make a wine and a brandy based on wine which is kosher there. So um that was an interesting I've I've had other interesting experiences. I don't do just wine. Um but that was one that comes to mind when I'm thinking about wine. Did you ever have a really big scare in wine production? Um we've had to sometimes take tanks which may have you know, tens of thousands of of liters or gallons of liquid and declare them non-kosher which doesn't make the company that produced them happy. Certainly the people who had to pay for mashgichim it has happened. It's not a common occurrence. We try to do things in a way that but mistakes happen. Sometimes it's the company's own fault. We tell them this is a chaisam. This is a seal that cannot be touched. And if they go and they decide they're going to open up seals you know. And you put it in the contract that if they violate it then they have to spill the wine or they just can't sell it as kosher? They don't have to spill out the wine. We're we're not here you know, to be vindictive and to to make them waste. But if we can't certify the product we will not allow them to sell it as kosher absolutely. Has modern technology helped hashgacha of wine? Wine is made mostly the way it was made thousands of years ago. But with the aid of different equipment. Let me give you an example. When you make red wine so what you typically do is you have the skins fermenting together with the sugar juice in a tank. But you have to you know, mix it. And that's called remontage in in French or or pump overs. Means you're pulling out wine from the bottom of the tank and pumping it back up to the top of the tank. That's a process that can be done manually or it can be done automatically. Um and when you have these pumps which are put into place and everything is sealed in place still a mashgiach would be the one who has to turn on the button. That can be done remotely. You can have today you can do a lot of different things remotely. So if we seal it up in a way that the only person who could activate the pump would be the mashgiach. So even if he's not Remember wineries are not always that convenient to get to. To have a mashgiach drive for 4 hours to do a 15 minute task is not always economically um you [clears throat] know, reasonable. So if we can do this through a remote type of system that would work. Every time they have to take a sample from a fermentation tank. Um if it's non-kosher wine, only a mashgiach can open up the valve and pull out the sample and then give it to the winemaker for him to decide what has to be done. If we can do that, we had a Once a doctor who decided to go into wine and he he was an inventor of medical equipment. If you're familiar with like insulin dosing, that means a person who is a diabetic wears a device that measures the sugar levels within the blood and then doses insulin. So, we developed a system like that where the sample can be automatically removed from the tank. And you know, it can't even be caught into a cup which would be a problem because wine has a unique chumra and a unique stringency called nitzei chibbur that if you pour from kosher into non-kosher, so there's a reverse contamination. It will So, you take out a small sample into a small flask and you just made the entire tank forbidden. So, what we do is we have It's not a direct stream. It falls out This dosing machine comes into another receptacle which only then can they open up and remove it. So, it's indirect. As again, we use where feasible, we try to use it. The danger with technology is it's only as effective as the people who are managing it. I know many times people say, "Well, we have cameras." But there's nobody watching the cameras. So, >> [laughter] >> so that that's It's It's you know, it it can be an extension of what we do, but there has to be a human being ultimately involved with it. >> Can I ask you a personal question? I may not answer. What's your favorite wine? My favorite wine um My the style of wine that I like is more Israeli and Napa style which is bolder flavors. They're usually blends like a cab petit verdot type of blend. That's That's my personal favorite, but wine is you know, there are a lot of wonderful wines out there. Sometimes it's not even so much the varietal, it's the quality. Um and sometimes people think, "Well, if you paid $100,000 for the bottle versus $20 for the bottle." I've heard this Jeff Morgan is a is the the founder of the Covenant Winery and it's in Berkeley. It's mostly based on the Napa grapes. He always says, "Forget about the price. If you like it, drink it." What are the moments where you feel the most sippuk from your job at the OU? When you're involved in klal work, when you're benefiting klal Yisrael. Everyone, you know, in their own work is is doing good. They're supporting their families, enabling their families to have chinuch and to have, you know, all the what's necessary to raise Jewish families. That's all fantastic. When you're involved in klal work, you can you more easily make the association between what we do and I don't mean myself, I mean what we as a group do here at the OU with what benefits the klal Yisrael. And and something that comes to mind is something I heard from Rav Mordechai Eliyahu who was the former chief rabbi of the Sephardic chief rabbi in Israel. And he once spoke here at the OU and he said that just as Chazal say that ma'achalos asuros, forbidden foods are metamtamin es halev, they sort of stop up and they they block the you know, it's like artery blockages. But the not the physical heart, but the spiritual heart that enables a person to grow. And the opposite, conversely, when we provide legitimately kosher foods to klal Yisrael, even if they're not thinking about it when they consume them, it's mefate'ach, it opens up those channels, that ability for them to grow. So, that always resonated with me because I can feel that when I do my job properly If I don't do it, obviously not. But if I do my job properly and when I do my job properly and when those around me all work together to this common goal, we're actually having klal Yisrael grow spiritually. That was an incredibly illuminating conversation. Thank you, Rabbi Ari Biderman for taking the time to join [music] us today. And thank you for tuning in to Keeping It Kosher. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, [music] review, and subscribe. We'll see you next month as we continue to uncover the stories behind the symbol.