Order Up: What Makes a Restaurant Kosher

So, would you say that hashgacha is mainly built on trust and once that trust is broken, that's the that's the end of all of it? >> I can't give you hashgacha if I don't trust you, but my job is to verify. >> So, the mashgiach is he supposed to be at busy times, is he supposed to be in the kitchen? Is he is he out with the people? >> In general, he's supposed to be in the kitchen and washing his vegetables and checking what he's doing. He's got he's got a lot of his on his plate. I have a chat called Mashgichim in a Pinch. I So, I have about 15 people on the on the chat. >> Welcome to Keeping It Kosher, the podcast where we go behind the scenes [music] of the kosher world. I'm your host, Rabbi Ezra Sarna. Today, we're sitting down in the OU kitchen with Rabbi Dovid Schrayer. He oversees the hidden infrastructure of kosher restaurants, manages a massive network of Mashgichim, and is an expert in the intense operational and halachic realities of the food service industry. Rabbi Schrayer, thank you for joining us today. >> My pleasure. >> So, a lot of people know that the OU gives hashgacha to food companies, factories, but I think a lot of people don't realize that the OU is also involved in restaurants and food service. I want to ask you, what is the difference between giving hashgacha to a factory and giving hashgacha to restaurant? >> So, the first big difference is the daily operation. A factory has their set list of ingredients. The OU puts together what they call their schedule A and schedule B. They're not changing their ingredients. They go through research and development, R&D. They sample, test, look around, and before they change something, it's going to take a take a long time. By a restaurant, it's a food operation. Everything is coming in on the same day. Um they could be getting oils from three different companies on given on three days in a week. They could be getting all different products, and not everyone is married to a specific brand of mayonnaise that they're going to But they're going to use whatever brand their distributor sends them as long as it has an OU or has a good hashgacha. So that requires a mashgiach to be on top. It's not only with oils, then you start dealing with things that could be either dairy and not pareve, not neutral, things that could be dairy equipment, or if the restaurant decides to take on itself an extra level of being pas Yisroel or or cholov Yisroel, and something comes with an OUD or a plain OU, and it would not be acceptable in the restaurant. So we need someone who's going to be checking everything that's coming in. In a factory, we have we have a system and and how we check and how often we check, unannounced visits. In a restaurant, we have to have a a whole structure as Rabbi Genack always said to us, he quotes the pasuk of from Koheles that says "Gavoah al gavoah shomer u'gvoah al aleihem." So you set up a system that has checks and balances from the beginning. In every in every restaurant, we have we have a mashgiach. In addition to the mashgiach, we have a Rav Hamashchia, who's visiting on a regular basis, unannounced in different times. Um sometimes early morning, sometimes late night, but sometimes during the day. You have a person in the office, I'm the rabbinic coordinator. I have a couple of other colleagues who take care of some of the restaurants. And on top of that, I have a group leader. But there's always layers upon layers to be able to to deal with the issues. Some of the issues are you know, can wait. Some most of the issues can't wait. This morning, I I got a text from a mashgiach from a on a product that just came in. Um what is it? You know, I couldn't tell what it was from it from it, but you know, modern technology has has made things a lot easier. Cuz instead of just telling me, "Oh, I got in vegetable oil, uh what is it?" Can you send me a picture? I tell the mashgichim, "Send me a picture, both sides of the label with the ingredients, with the hashgacha. Don't just send me a picture of a hashgacha because while the OU does accept certain hashgachas, taking a picture taking a WhatsApp or a or a or email or a text of the actual product, you're 17 steps ahead of instead of five five phone calls back and forth, what is this, what's going on, you're able to answer things in real time. >> There are so many products coming to the restaurant and they're coming in every single day and probably throughout the day. So, what time does the Mashgiach's job start and what does his day look like? >> The Mashgiach arrives in the morning. He does a quick check to make sure that the way the night Mashgiach or if he was the only Mashgiach the way he left it the night before is there, whether the refrigerators are locked, the gas is locked, um the meat was put away at night, that there's nothing in the in the refrigerators upstairs that aren't locked. And and he begins his day. Um sometimes when he arrives there're going to be deliveries that he has to check in and you know, depending on the size of the place, there could be multiple deliveries. He's got to check and make sure that that all the products are there, but he also has to make sure to turn on turn on all the fires and make sure to keep a keep a calculation of which fires are on and which fires are not on. It's not enough. The OU was a policy requires the pilot lights to be working on the ovens, but we require the Mashgiach to turn on the the the fires as well unless the pilots are center mounted and and strong enough to to to cook you know, an egg on with without turning on the fire, then then the Mashgiach has to also turn on the fire. So, he's got has to be constantly going back and forth and monitoring and seeing all right, the staff is allowed to adjust the fire, but they can't turn a fire on even even from a pilot. In addition, he's got to make sure that all the vegetables that that are needed. I always tell the Mashgiach him that that we we try to stay a half a day ahead. Meaning, it's very hard to be hand to mouth that we need this vegetable, we need that vegetable. That the night when the when the afternoon Mashgiach is checking vegetables, he's not checking it for right now, he's checking it for for the Mashgiach in the morning because every place has their routines of what they're doing and what they need and the Mashgiach if the chef needs something at 7:00 in the morning, the Mashgiach is coming at 6:00. There's no way that with him doing everything he needs to do at the beginning of the day that he's going to be able to get that ready in that 1 hour. But, the night night mashgiach very often kitchens are no longer really prepping much after 7:00 at night and the crib mashgiach there till 10:00 11:00 at night, that's prime time for a mashgiach to be washing vegetables cuz he's not in anybody's way cuz they're finishing off the products that they that they already prepped during the day. So, that then he's got to take care of the vegetables. He's got to make sure in in a in a meat restaurant to make sure that keep the segregation of meat and fish. >> So, it sounds like they have a lot to keep in mind. Is there a training that they go through before they can be an OU mashgiach at a restaurant? >> Yes, we we go we go through training with them to go through go over all of our policies and make sure that they're that they're familiar with with all all the things they need to do. We also send them to one of our senior people for vegetable training. But, vegetable training isn't is not only vegetable training cuz this person also shows them what the fires look like and how how to how to turn on the turn on the pilot of a of a fryer and you know you know you know everyone loves eating french fries, but they don't know what kind of machine it's made in. It's not like you made in a little pot that you make in your house, but rather it's you know they have a this big machine that fryer and has to be lit by the mashgiach and he has to know how to do that. And he show and he shows them the various vegetables, you know, exactly how to wash them. He gives them a whole list of, you know, mushrooms that that need washing that don't need washing how exactly what to do. You know, it's not enough it's not enough to have him explain them how to wash the vegetables. He has them you know, do the do the actual washing so they they see it in you know uh that they're that they can do it themselves. >> So, I imagine each restaurant has its own culture and its own pace. Are you a de facto Shulchan? Like is it a matter of matching up also different I'm sure restaurant owners have different personalities and different ways of working. >> Yes, for sure. That that that's that creates a a different challenge that one of the ideal processes that we would love to do is to switch people around on a regular basis. And because of that specific issue that if someone's working now from 8:00 to 4:00, right? I can't switch him to a place that works from 7:00 to 3:00 because he can't be there before 8:00. And what am I going to do with with switching him? But very much it's it's a we tell our mashgichim that 80 to 90% of their job is building relationships. It's not it's not Yes, you have to you have to take care of and do all the things that we showed them to do and and monitor fires and check the vegetables and and check all the deliveries that are coming in. But you have to do it with chachma. You have to do it with with wisdom. You have to do it be smart. Not not not to antagonize people. Even though even though you may be running the kitchen, you don't have to say that I'm the boss. You don't have to You don't have to antagonize. You have to be be respectful. You have to do your job. You say, "You know, I trust you. I love you. But you know, you see that symbol over there? The people that the people that are trusting it are expecting me to verify it, not just to not just to do that." And yeah, you have to do it with you know, be smart and not and not try and antagonize the people. >> So, you have 40 to 50 restaurants that are on they're under your purview, under you know, your your responsibility besides your caterers, besides your programs. And there's constant chalos happening because there's new products, the fire was on, the fire was on, the fridge was open, etc. So, what is your day like? >> So, you know, it starts early in the morning. You know, sometimes you know, I'm learning in at 5:00 in the morning. I can get a text from a mashgiach. I'm you know, learning at 10:00 at night. I could get on my train ride in, could get a text. One of the things that the OU Food Service Department prides itself in is that we get back to people and we're available. So, we've tried to create a create a scenario where we have a we have a WhatsApp group for all our mashgichim where if we need to communicate something directly to everyone, the other night by by one by a catering event, there was there was some cakes that were delivered to to an event that were that was under a reputable supervision, but something didn't look right to the mashgiach. The mashgiach reached out to this hashgacha and he and they told him that it's not legitimate. It's not legal. And he sent he sent me he sent me the picture of of the product and and that he that they said it's not okay. Um and I sent that out to all my mashgichim to make sure that if you got a cake from here, that that that's the purpose of you know communicating. Something happens in one place, right? It's usually something that people need to know about. But we've also created a WhatsApp group for all the mashgichim of the restaurants or the caterers in each for each place. So on each on each restaurant will have myself and a couple of my colleagues and there there have a mashgiach who's visiting. So so if my phone is on airplane mode just to to record this, right? I'm not the only one who can answer such a question that that no no one feels alone. So we try to make ourselves available at all times. >> So you you have a an army of mashgichim and each of them is absolutely necessary for the restaurant to function. What happens if a mashgiach calls and says I'm sick, I can't make it? >> this happens all the time. We have we have a chat. I have a lot of siyata dishmaya. That's the only way I can answer that. You know, I'll give you an example. What happened was I needed someone for for this coming Sunday in a place. And I reached out to one person, he wasn't available. Another person, he was available. And then this person who was available Sunday got a call from somewhere else where he substituted that he needed that he would that he needed someone for Sunday. His father was had a had an appointment. His father's not feeling well. And it was a lot more hours. Let me see if someone else is available for what for this place you would agreed to. And then I'll be happy to let you go to this other place. Not 10 minutes later cuz I had put out on a I have a chat called mashgichim in a pinch. Right? So I had about 15 people on the [laughter] on the chat. Uh one of the people like a day later from when I sent it it he said is is Sunday still available from 8:30 to 4:00? So I reached out to the person. I said I told him the story. I said I have somebody but he I want to put him somewhere else. He said this is the Mashgiach's number. Confirm with him that you're going to do it and then I'll let the other guy go to the other place. So you know that this is what I call Siyata Dishmaya cuz I know I could have been busy to find someone else for Sunday and Kaddish Baruch who sent it my way. Before before COVID, I had about four or five guys who were who were we'll call them Yankee on the spot. And his name's not Yankee but but that that they didn't want to have a full-time job but they were more than happy to be busy four days a week. Whereas if someone can't make it somewhere they're all happy. So during COVID, you know, two of two of them were just frightened of COVID. They wouldn't go any near anybody. Um two of them replaced two other Mashgichim who were who were frightened of of COVID and that and that left me with one person. >> So let me take a step back for a second. You have a very pressure um ridden job. How did you get to the OU? >> I I grew up in a rabbinic family. My father as a friend of the Bracha was a member of the Rabbinic Kashrus Commission. He used to come monthly for meetings in the OU and he used to I used to talk to him about it. It was something that interested me. I you know I grew up in in Flatbush and there were a lot of challenges with as the community became became more more frum and whatever. It intrigued me how we could come to a situation where we could find you know that something would be acceptable to everyone. So I was very interested in Kashrus. When I was engaged to get married, the OU ran their first Ask OU seminar. A success story. I I I did I did the I did the seminar. I was it was actually three weeks before before we got married. I I took a week off. I was learning in the summer. I took a week off. Did it. I connected with a number of rabbonim in the OU at the time. And then I was uh it was my last year of of Smicha in YU. I ended up getting involved in a a project of kashrus that uh that had me speaking to someone in the OU almost on a daily to weekly basis about some issues. Um when when this issue finally uh you know, was dealt with, um I I asked, "Is there anything available for the summer?" And with, you know, some of my father's connections and and whatever, I I was able to get what what was called an internship for the summer. At the end of the summer I was, you know, I was looking for a rabbinic job at the same time and, you know, nothing had panned out and the kashrus of Rabbi Genack let me stay. At some point I was asked to review some places under what was called the Midtown Board of Kashrus. And uh they uh Rabbi Genack gave me permission to split my time between the two. Um in the interim I interviewed for a rabbi position and it was a Tuesday night in March that the uh the shul was voting between me and another rabbi. At Wednesday morning at about 11:00 Rabbi Genack called me into his office and told me they were hiring me as an RC in in 2 weeks. And about 11:30 I got a call that I didn't get the job as a rabbi. So, Kodesh Baruchu had uh had this uh plan for me and and uh you know, been here, you know, since and Baruch Hashem I've had I've had, you know, the OU's been very good to me, to my family and I I started a month before my oldest was was born and Baruch Hashem my my oldest just had her third kid, kein ayin hara, and we ayin hara, so uh >> When you're going to restaurants to find out uh you know, if this restaurant can get OU hashgacha when you're dealing with it. The owners are under a lot of pressure. They are running a restaurant that's helping the community. How much compassion do you have? How much of the uh side of the restaurant owner do you take into account and how much are you thinking like these are the protocols, this is about you know, this is what we need to do. E- Every every person is a person. You have to you have to you have to deal with them, you have to listen to them, but you have to be true to the to to to what's going on. I mean, I have a a very personal relationship with a lot of the people. Uh I think a a few months ago one of one of the one of the people I deal with, he called me to discuss a uh discuss a certain project that he was looking into. And I think the the biggest uh compliment he gave me in the course of the conversation, he says, "I know anything I tell you doesn't go further." All right. So so you know, people trust you you build a level of trust that that you know, they can tell me a lot of things, but I don't go tell it to anybody else. Besides the fact that in every contract we have a confidentiality clause that we're not going to tell tell everything, but the sometimes people misunderstand this confidentiality clause. You know, it means that I'm not going to go tell someone that this this is what he uses this is the oil that so and so and so uses in his in his french fries. But when someone calls and asks who's meat this restaurant is using, and you know this person only wants to use a certain brand of meat, I So I'm sorry, I can't tell you. All right. That's that's not the answer. There you have to balance that, but but you know, you build trust with people and and they you know, I had I had one place that came to us for another from another hashgacha. And we had a number of battles cuz he was used to doing things his own way, and after about 10 months he said to me, "Rabbi, I have to tell you I don't always agree with you, but I appreciate you cuz you get back to me." All right. You know, that that's that that's that's what we we try to do. I I try very hard to to to answer people and get back to people, and but you know, I've had a lot of support from the from the senior management and uh you know, I I speak speak to the post game all the time whether it's Rabbi Gerstner or Rabbi Schechter. Rabbi Belsky was was very supportive and very helpful through the years of of establishing how how we are able to move forward and and work with the people and not not against the people. >> It must It must take a lot of strength. It must take a lot of g'vurah. You probably have to say no to a lot of people. You have to come come down on people. Is that a natural trait of yours that that you have to >> So what what what one of my colleagues quoted a quoted a line that says, you know, you can be machmir without being a chamor. You can be a maker without being a cow. All right, you have to do it with a smile. You have to do I tell people you can accomplish a lot more with sugar than you do with salt. All right, you don't have to, you know, hammer a person. You have to explain it to him and listen to him. And sometimes you have to let the person vent. All right, you know, I was a I was a rabbi in a shul for about 15 years. Remember soon after I became a rabbi, >> [snorts] >> there was a man in well well into his 80s who started davening in the shul cuz his wife passed away and he was coming to say kaddish. And he came and as it was getting to the winter, it was getting colder, he didn't come for a few days. And Thursday night, you know, before Shabbos, I picked up the phone, I called him and I said, "How are you, sir?" So he went for the next 10 minutes complaining about all his life and the difficulty and he misses his wife and the and I'm not even sure I said "Uh-huh, uh-huh" at any point of that conversation. But after about 10 minutes, he says, "Thank you for listening, Rabbi Gutnick." All right, so so some sometimes, you know, that being able to listen, you know, and and knowing that that, you know, the person's under pressure and he's frustrated and he's you know, it's it's not it's not you. It's you know, whatever's going on. It's hard. It's sometimes I know the the person in the in in my position before me used to have a sefer in his in his office called Orech Chaim. Right, that he had in front of him that went when when certain uh proprietors were were pushing his buttons, he would just hold the sefer just to remind him to to you know, hold hold it hold his tongue. >> So you described that the mashgiach is checking lots of packages. They're checking bugs. Are there any things that go on in the kitchen that consumer really just does not appreciate? Complexity is or or stresses? >> I think each chef is is a all on his own in whatever in whatever language he speaks. All right, so so so being able to navigate that is is not not so kosher. The people don't realize that, you know, they don't want the mashgiach to be there. The chef will be said it earlier. The chef doesn't want the mashgiach to be there, but but he has to be there and he has to do the job. It really starts from the top. And many years ago I was a mashgiach in a hotel for Pesach. And it started a couple days before Pesach. Um the manager of the hotel was walking into the kitchen. And one of the chefs made a very nasty comment to to mashgiach. And the manager could have done one of many different things. He could have walked and given the guy a high five and just smiled along with everyone else. Or he could have done what he did. What did he do? He turns to the chef and he says to him, "Do you want to pack your bags now or in 5 minutes?" He set the tone for the rest of Pesach. Everyone was shining the rabbi's shoes. They no one would say a word to the rabbi in a negative way. And a person has to be sometimes I know some of the rabbis who visit factories uh keep note cards in their car about the, you know, the the guy who's running this piece of machinery. Um he just his wife is sick or his kid was sick. And then before he walks into the factory, he reviews his note cards to know who who's, you know, what's going on. And sometimes, you know, the chef had a bad day. You know, just stay away from him. You know, like knowing how to navigate that, sometimes you you just you just don't even realize, you know, what goes on and someone's upset or someone said something to someone, you know, the uh I am always be out of lotion and my massage better lotion. I have to be careful with your words. It you can you can destroy a person. You can uplift a person. And, you know, sometimes mashgiach him, you know, uh you're not you're not sitting in the basement of this anymore. All right. You have to you have to relate to people. You have to speak to people. You know, what happened what happens when you you know, you catch a catch someone turning on a fire? So, Bishul Akum is a serious issue. It's you know, Chazal made a number of decrees for it to to avoid intermarriage. You see see a chef turning on a fire. So, usually if you see the chef turning on a fire, by the time you're going to reach me, even though I pick up the phone and you pick up the phone, by the time you reach me, the food's already Bishul Akum. I tell the Mashgiach, "Make sure that you stir the pot before you call me." Why? Cuz if you stir the pot, you did some you you had had a hand in the cooking process. So, even even though we may want to discard the food because you have to teach them a lesson, which we try not to cuz it's you're you're dealing with people's money and you don't want to just throw a person, but but you have to, you know, set set a precedent and make sure that they know it. But, you have to know how to how to navigate. That That's also another job of a Mashgiach, the checking the alcohol and checking the wine and >> And in terms of the complexity of the kitchen itself, I mean, I think people generally think, "Okay, there's a stove and there's a frying pan and there's a little thing for french fries." What What are the uh What else is going on that people don't realize? >> Right. First, we have the segregation of meat and fish. The ovens are next to each other. They have to have separate kaylim, equipment, etc. Um the french fries, where the french fries are cooked with uh with which oil they're put in. If the french fries are fried in the same oil that you're for frying the chicken, we don't allow them to to serve it with fish. So, some restaurants have on the opposite side a small fryer that they use for fish. Some people have on their menu, "We We don't serve uh french fries with fish." It dep- It depends on the place, but they they know it's a you know, if you're walking into a restaurant that it that's seating 300 people for dinner, right? And you're you're everyone's ordering at the same time, right? There's a lot going on at once. >> So, is the Mashgiach is he supposed to be at busy times is he supposed to be in the kitchen? Is he Is he out with the people? >> No, he he he's he's out with people if someone has has a question for a Mashgiach, he'll come out. But, in general, he's supposed to be in the kitchen and washing his vegetables and checking what he's doing. Monitoring the fires, he's he's got he's got a lot on his on his plate, no pun intended. >> Are there other things in the kitchen that that that presents complexities or >> There are there convection ovens that are that are used many years ago. They the modern convection oven has an automatic shutoff that when you open it it goes off. So if it goes off and it's a 350° it goes under what Rabelsky that's how coined the sheer bishop which is the cooking temperature it goes under 200° in in you know I won't say rapid fire but you know within 5 6 minutes that it stays open for that long and then non-Jew closes the closes the oven and we have a problem so try to figure out ways to to operate that and monitor that and see what see what goes on. >> So let's say you are um sitting in a restaurant and the restaurant has a good hashgacha or you are otherwise and you see something that you doesn't seem right to you. Should you as the consumer assume listen hashgacha is hashgacha assume the mashgiach is fine everything's probably fine I'm going to go on eating my chicken or should you do something about it? >> So it really depends what people think are is an issue. I so you know one of the things we tell our mashgichim is that what we spoke about the confidentiality issue a while back one of the confidentiality issues that's very important is that the mashgichim don't call their own rabbonim with questions because if a person is not dealing in kashrus all right and is not familiar with the intricacies of what's going on he's going to hear the question he's going to think that he's going to think the world's on fire. So a sim- a similar thing you know a person who's doesn't know what he's looking at and doesn't know what's happening it's very important that he that he you know speak to the mashgiach first or speak to someone you know you know can I speak to the foreman or to to the manager or or you know you know contact contact the hashgacha I mean we get calls all the time I get apologies from people calling me Rabbi I'm sorry for bothering you who's hashgacha who's Who's going to be the mashgiach?" And I tell people, "No, no, no, you have it wrong. You shouldn't be apologizing. You know, in in every other industry, the consumer is right. All right? You're not. All right? You Don't be afraid to ask. If something doesn't look right, it may not be right. Uh we do our best, but the consumers are our best customer. You know, to take off of what the what the Sy Sims used to say, right? An educated consumer is our best customer. You know, we have the OU has a whole education department. I speak all over in yeshivas and schools and you know, try to tell people that, you know, what what are the things you're looking for, what are the things If it doesn't make sense, it it's probably not It's probably not good. And that's something we we try to do to to educate the community. But if if something doesn't look right, reach out to the hashgacha. Don't don't be afraid to ask. Now, if you're only doing it because you're going to then go to the owner and ask for a discount on your meal, so let's let's not, you know, be so holy when you when when you when you're going in that way. But But if you're you're sincere and you and you're asking and you want to know, you know, I I I often uh when I speak in schools, I put the uh the number for the OU kashrus hotline. And you know, and the email for a kosher Q at ou.org. The you know, if you have a question. I said, "But make sure the the question is real and sincere." >> I've heard from a number of people who are on specific programs. I won't mention them cuz it's not important. That they asked the mashgiach if they would eat in on that program. The mashgiach said, "No." If you ask the mashgiach and he said he personally wouldn't eat at that program, what are you supposed to do? >> So, it really depends on on on what the answer to what the question is. All right? You know, we we've mentioned the possul of chol Yisrael, etc. All right? If someone's machmir on chol Yisrael and the program's not chol Yisrael, so so you know, you can't expect him necessarily to eat. But But if he's saying it's not kosher for me, but it's kosher for you, I would, you know, somewhat have a have a challenge with that. All right? Uh But But it really depends on on on the circumstances. You know, many people think that when they're going away, they they're um trusting whoever's taking care of it and and not not commenting on the programs, but very often the programs that you're going through for Pesach or other others are caterers who have a trustworthy hashgacha all year round, but they don't have the regular hashgacha for Pesach. You just have to ask yourself why not? So, the the simple answer is that the caterer is not engaging in hashgacha, but rather the tour operator is engaging in hashgacha, and they specifically don't want to write who the hashgacha is in case they can't do what they want. So, they'll change the hashgacha. So, if if you look at the programs how they're advertised, they're clearly advertising on great you know, all the catchphrases of kosher without mentioning a person's name. And that's intentional, unfortunately. >> So, is that related to why you don't see many OU Pesach programs or OU cruises or things like that? >> So, the OU has been doing food service for many years, and they've put together a number of requirements that that they need need in place before they're going to uh do a program for Pesach. The halacha says that you there's an issue of of hachana, right? But they they there is a heter >> Preparing. >> Preparing Preparing from one day of yom tov to next, right? We didn't have that issue cuz it was Shabbos, so everyone made an eruv tavshilin, but when when on regular one day of yom tov to next, you can't do any prep until the until the second day comes. So, the Shulchan Aruch writes a heter that you can be marbeh bishurin b'osek kedeira, that if you're making a a soup pot near the soup pot is the soup pot the size of Oog Melech HaBashan, so you're allowed to fill the fill the pot or full even though it's the same pot. So, what what some of the operators have have done is they'll make um 50 or 60 trays of chicken, take one piece of chicken from each tray, and suddenly the stuff's hot much much much more quickly cuz they're serving it for the children's dining room, which is before shkiya, which is before sunset, right? So, So can they can So, so these are the type of uh you know things that and and suddenly they're also heating up all the prime meat or whatever else they're eating. They're serving that they're not serving in the children's dining room but they're you know So one of the one of the workers they'll let him have a tiny piece of the meat just so so they can say that >> And sometimes you hear or the word on the street or the rumor on the street is all the restaurant did was this and they pulled hashgacha and it makes the it makes the OU or whatever other hashgacha hashgachasim little What are some things that can happen in a restaurant that will make it that the hashgacha needs to be pulled and what are things that the >> So it's very it's very hard to to to pinpoint a specific issue It's somewhat of an attitude. I think recently I'm not going to go with where what there was a there was um a certain place that was that that they pulled hashgacha from that because of pas yisroel brits. And you know the the the son of the owner put out a whole diatribe against hashgacha and but but ultimately the issue is we're on the same team here. If I say you can't use something, you can't use it. You want to discuss it? We can discuss it. But but if you're if you tell my mashgiach, you tell me I'm using it anyway and then there's no basis for a relationship. We very much try you know to have a relationship and a conversation and speak to people and you know what? Sometimes you you can complain. You can you can ask and you can say and this is no good. You know the OU has a policy with the with meat that meat has to be OU. All right? And not only that has to be OU has to be processed by by OU. So you can't just walk in anywhere and not say oh I went to the local butcher and got got got meat. Oh they told me it's OU. That that that that does that doesn't really work. But at the same time if if a restaurant is doing a tasting for four people and and they're going to order and and they need to to get you know four pieces of whatever steak you want to get and you know their distributors only going to send them you know three cases minimum to to order and they say Rabbi you know the the local supermarket says they're using this okay it has a good can I get this just for this tasting and you know I understand the rule so we work with them it's not it's not you know we're not we're not unreasonable people and if they're using you want to we're still supporting the OU anyway but but but as a policy this is this is what what our policy is. >> So would you say that has to have has mainly built on trust and once that trust is broken that's the that's the end all of it? >> I can't give you if I don't trust you but my job is to verify all right so my job is to clarify and be sure but but if I don't trust you and I think that you're going to you know try and sneak something around you 30 not going to or not going to help in that situation we try to put in systems and policies that that protect them. >> And would you say the is busy he's checking products he's watching the fires he's watching the fryers he's watching the the workers leave him alone don't don't bother him don't ask him a question? >> No because sometimes he may be in a corner watching you know washing the vegetables and he doesn't have any interaction with people and and that that might actually be good for his day to you know speak to a person but you know if he doesn't know the answer you know could be that he he's there the first day the second day don't don't necessarily hold against him that he's that he didn't know the answer he may not be the regular person he may be a substitute or he said we get calls all the time or texts someone can't come someone can't be there so you know but but feel free to ask the question and if if you're not happy with the answer feel free to go up the ladder. >> Are there certain questions that a person can ask let's say a person's in a different state he calls the OU and the OU doesn't comment about the local vibe they don't have information you go into a restaurant they have you know they have there are Are there certain questions that you can ask to kind of pick up and sense like is this place run well? Does the mashgiach know what he's doing? >> So, I've made a number of presentations which started out calling being called going out to eat what could be the problem. And today's world we don't like so many problems. So, we we cleaned it up and we call it now the ABCs of eating out. Right? So, it it just makes it lighting up the but but after I discuss a number of issues whether it's fish or aqua or it's meat and fish or it's non-dairy milk. What what what you do with that and you know, whether you have to use the actual container etc. I go through it. I I then go on the back of the page. Actually, I gave the shiur shiur was tonight in shul. Um the back of the page has three three different sections with about 10 points of each. One is what to ask about a restaurant and sound intelligent. Two, I'm in a Shabbos kiddush what do I have to be concerned about? And three, I'm at a I'm at a catering event. What does a mashgiach have to worry about? So, at a restaurant, you know, who who has keys to the restaurant? Who's turning on the fires? Is there a mashgiach? What do they do for meat and fish? Do they have fresh as khala? In New York City you have to worry about the filtered water. And and other things. By by Shabbos, you know, how are they heating up the food? You know, what what are they doing for you know, where's the cake from? Is the khala frying? Sometimes you know where the khala is from but the cakes are fancier cakes. Where where they coming from? What are they doing for hot water and iced tea? Etcetera. Right? They make sure that they're not putting lemons to squeeze on the on the shelf. What what do you do with the the portion controlled sugars? Right? They can you open it. But but you know, and then by by catering event, you know, people don't realize and you know, maybe we'll talk at a at a at a different the time we talk more about you know, catering and Shabbos etc. Um that when you're going to a non-kosher location that the staff there is from the from the from the location not from the from the caterer. And you know, you have to make sure you know, when when you're going to a schmorgasbord and and cutting prime rib or beef or whatever, that that if the chef is using his own knife, he can probably get an extra five to six slices out of every out of every prime rib. And you imagine you're cutting you know for 500 people, you have you know instead of 30 prime ribs, you're cutting 20. All right, so it's that that's a significant savings for the for the caterer. So you have to you know be on top of the knives and being turning on the fires on the schmorgesborg. Yes, much of the stuff on the schmorgesborg is already cooked, but not all of it is already cooked. You have to be aware of it. >> Okay, and besides for the kashrus of the restaurant, are there other things that go on in the restaurant that the OU uh gets involved in? >> So in in all of our contracts with with with our establishments, we have a number of clauses about the the ambiance in the restaurant should be should be where someone should be comfortable. All right, there shouldn't be any live music except on a motzei Shabbos or for a seudas mitzvah, right, where the restaurant is not open to the public. >> Uh why is that? Why can't you have live music? >> Right, so so so the the the maran talks about the pasuk that after the destruction of the temple that the pasuk says "Beshiro lo yishtayu yayin." That that when there's music, there shouldn't be there shouldn't be wine wine drunk. And that that's something that we try to keep to unless there's a right the it's excep- the exceptions to these rules are seudas mitzvah or a melaveh malka type atmosphere. Um one of the things that we we encourage our places, you know, is to make sure that the the queue the that they're that they're that they're playing the music should not have kol isha, that someone shouldn't be comfortable even though there may be different conversations about that, but should not have women singing. And we make sure that the that that people should be comfortable. I can't tell you that that that they're not playing fast music and loud music and I really that's that's for the consumer not to call the hashgacha and and complain, but they should complain to the manager because really it's a business decision on the place on the in the attitude of the ownership and management of of an establishment. And if no one complains and they just call us. So, they think it's the mashgiach who's calling me and I'm just going to complain and say, "Leave me alone. If If a customer doesn't want to come, let them not come." You know, they they know they'll call if you will call your bluff if say that, you know, "Really you're just trying to start up with me. You're not No no no one cares." >> Okay, now we have some questions uh that our listeners sent in. Uh so, if you can take them one at a time. Here we go. Here's the first one. >> Hey guys. Um so, I actually wanted to know at kosher certified restaurants, how does the mashgiach go about making sure that employees aren't bringing in non-kosher food from home or taking out for their own lunch? >> Excellent question. Um one of the one of the biggest challenges is to make sure that the there's no outside food in the in the establishment not only by customers but but also by the employees. Um mashgiach has to uh be very careful in keeping his eyes in what's going on. He has to make sure that there are signs in the kitchen that that should say, you know, outside food and it's written both in English and usually Spanish. Restaurants often feed their feed their feed their staff to avoid this uh this challenge, but it's something that uh the mashgiach has to be be on guard. That's that's part of the concern about, you know, they get the deliveries from the distributors, but they they're you know, when they run out of something or if a chef has a certain secret ingredient that he wants to bring, he might bring it in his bag and the mashgiach has to uh be aware of that. >> Is that something that you recommend to the owners of the restaurants that they might not have anticipated? >> Most Most places have what they call family meal. Um depending on how often how long they're open and how often they're open, you know, so they may have it twice a day or once a day depending on how long they're open. But for the most part they they feed they feed everyone cuz they don't want they don't want to they don't want everyone going out. Um you know, I know many companies have a cafeteria in in house because they don't want people going out for lunch, you know, You know, they feed them and they even give a discount to the price, you know, to the food. They want to keep people in. >> Fascinating. Okay, let's go to the next question. >> I have a work event I need to attend in a non-kosher restaurant and they can't accommodate me and get me a kosher meal. So, what can I get there? Like drinks, water, salad? What's permitted? >> Being from the OU, I don't like to recommend to eat anything in a non-kosher restaurant. But, given the person's challenges, the best thing is to eat before and to and to drink Coca-Cola. Water might be a challenge in New York City because of uh you know, bugs in the water. So, Coke or diet Coke. As far as fruit, you know, you get a whole fruit, it's probably probably better. Cut up fruit already running into challenges, what knives they're cutting it with and depending on how careful they are in the kitchen. But, you know, you you you know, they're cutting one fruit just for you, that that that might be a more of a challenge if they cut, you know, for for your your eating lunch with four people, they might have cut the the beef with the same knives that they're cutting the the melon. So, you have to be careful with uh fruit in a non-kosher restaurant. Whereas, if you're going to a supermarket and they have cut up fruit, right, it might be different that you you know, if it's cut even if it's cut they're cutting a lot at the same time, you might be able to purchase that on an irregular basis. >> And getting like a regular garden salad? >> Getting a regular garden salad, it's a challenge to wash vegetables in a kosher restaurant. They're certainly not washing the vegetables in a non-kosher restaurant. >> Let's do one more question. >> Is it true that only the mashgiach have the key from the freezer fridge of the restaurants um and not the owners? >> The The OU policy is we require the mashgiach to be the only ones with the keys for the refrigerators and freezers even in an establishment where the owner is from and shomer Shabbos. Um we do that because we don't want to we don't want to have any challenges and and any questions and we don't uh want to start checking people's status to see who's religious, who's not, who's trustworthy, gave the key to his chef, who didn't. And at the same time we insist that there be a lock box in the place where the keys are kept with a combination that that I have a copy I have a copy of the combination and the Rabbi Moshe has a copy of the combination. So, in case of emergency if the mashgiach doesn't come, the keys are the keys are there. I don't have a situation where you get a phone call on a motzei Shabbos where the mashgiach who left Thursday night left with the keys. All right, so you have you have the keys there in case in case of emergency. >> Rabbi Shur, thank you so much for coming. This has been fascinating. It's been my pleasure. Thank you so much. >> Thank you for tuning in to Keep It Kosher. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe. We'll see you next time as we continue to uncover the stories behind the symbol.