Gebrokts Unpacked: Origins of the Minhag and its Applications

Let's say a family or an individual gets invited out to another family and [music] that individual does not eat gebrochts. Shows up at the home, they have the meal and [music] the food is gebrochts. The people who are desperate for the matzah balls on Pesach, there are 50 other weeks of the year >> [music] >> and they never eat them. So, only on Pesach you need to have them. What is the volume of questions that you get around this time of year? Welcome to the very first episode of Keeping It Kosher, a new podcast from OU Kosher. I'm your host, Rabbi Ezra Sarna. We live in a world where we see kosher symbols every single day on our snacks, our drinks, and the ingredients in our pantry. But, how often do we think about the story behind that symbol? This is what Keeping It Kosher is all about. Every month, we're going to take you behind the scenes of kashrus, uncovering the little-known stories from the front lines, exploring the inner workings of food manufacturing, and digging into the questions that matter most to you, the kosher consumer. Whether you're looking for clarity on the latest food innovations or just curious about what it takes to certify a plant in a remote corner of the world, you are in the right place. Today, we are sitting down in the OU kitchen with someone at the forefront of the world of kashrus. Rabbi Moshe Elefant is the COO of OU Kosher. He oversees the certification of approximately 15,000 plants in 105 countries and manages hundreds of staff members. But, beyond his work at OU Kosher, Rabbi Elefant is a rav of a shul in Borough Park and has thousands of talmidim around the world that listen to his Daf Yomi and Kitzur Shulchan Aruch shiurim. It was a fascinating and inspirational talk. So, I was told a funny story that a fellow wanted to go to a certain Pesach program in South America. Small sweaty Pesach program as had on the ad that they have a bunch of different onion and very exciting attractions and they also wrote no gabroks on the spider program. And so the person is calling up was an Ashkenazi Jew and he said, "You're a spider program, why do you say that you don't gabroks?" So we thought that was a hummer and cashes so we didn't we don't know what gabroks is. We just put it on there to make it look at So so I think a lot of people are confused about about gabroks and I want to try to clarify to you with with your help. So tell me where where what does gabroks mean? Where does it come from? So let's start from the beginning. It's a good place to start. Gabroks, what does the word gabroks mean? So gabroks is a Jewish word, a Yiddish word and it means dipping something into liquid. And there's a custom amongst certain groups, particularly Ashkenazi Jews, but not all who don't eat gabroks on Pesach. The reality is gabroks is not in the Shulchan Aruch. It's not quoted in the Shulchan Aruch as something one has to be concerned about. Not in the Ramah, not in the Shulchan Aruch. But as I said, certain communities, certain families have that stringency that they don't eat gabroks on Pesach. And what's happened, I'm sure we'll have that part of our conversation is how a minig, a custom, which was sort of limited has now, like you said, gone mainstream. And what does that mean and why did it happen is I guess going to be a great conversation. And there's people who are opposed to it. I know there were abundant historically that were opposed to gabroks. What's the opposition? So the real opposition is that you know, they these rabbonim these communities don't believe that we should ask stringencies where stringencies are necessary. That's really the basis. There's another element to it. And the other element is a lot of foods that are made with brocks are quite delicious. And now if you're going to refrain from them you're not going to be able to have them. And why shouldn't I be able to have them if I believe that they're halachically permissible? I knew an individual I knew him very well who you know many people eat soup Shabbos Yom Tov they eat soup Friday night. They eat soup by the night meal when you come home from shul. But usually you don't hear people eating soup by the day meal. I'm not I'm not a chef. But that's not typical that people eat soup on the Yom Tov meals Shabbos meals both by night and by day. Right. There are halachic concerns on Shabbos they don't exist on Yom Tov. And this person told me that he eats soup every meal every day of Pesach a Passover. I said what guarantee you why do you need so much soup? He says because I love kneidlach. I love matzah balls. And that's the way I enjoy Yom Tov. Enjoying Yom Tov for me is being able to eat matzah balls. So that's why I have soup at every meal so I can have matzah balls at every meal. So now this rabbi who has a custom from Hungary or Galicia that he never even knew existed on the map and doesn't eat gebroks why should I not eat gebroks because he doesn't want to eat gebroks? So that's that's an element. And it's always just interesting to fight if you could instead of getting along I guess. [laughter] As far as the Brisker Mincha he was telling me that the Brisker Mincha going back to Rav Chaim Brisker, is that they have a bowl of water on the table and they dip the matzah >> Right. into the water. >> don't do it on the first day Pesach. The first day Pesach, even in Brisk, they don't eat gebroks. Because? Because gebroks may be considered like matzah ashira, like egg matzah. Ah. And there's a big discussion if egg matzah is considered real matzah or it's not considered real matzah. So, if it's considered real matzah, we don't eat matzah on erev Pesach. So, we should eat matzah by the seder. Right. And that's why on the first day Pesach, you don't eat more matzah than you're supposed to because we're going to have another seder for us in chutz la'aretz at night. So, in Brisk, even though they do eat gebroks >> Not the first day. The first day Pesach, they don't eat gebroks. So, we spoke about who keeps gebroks, you spoke about the different minhagim. What is the actual concern? The primary concern of gebroks is that when the matzah is baked, you may have particles of flour that were not properly, completely baked when they went through the baking process of the matzah. Those particles of flour or or might be flour if the matzah wasn't baked properly. And if you have those particles of flour and they come in contact with water, so whenever we speak about matzah, matzah is the most interesting food that we could talk about on Pesach. On one hand, the only food that you have to have on Pesach, at least by the seder, is matzah. But from all the food that people are so careful, and they should be, about what we eat and what we don't eat during the holiday, matzah is the most dangerous food as far as the halacha is concerned. Right. Cuz matzah is probably the only food on your table that could become real chametz. Cuz if you have flour and it's in contact with water, 18 minutes, you have chametz. But it gets worse, not better. The reason it gets worse is because 18 minutes is the amount of time when you have flour and water together that that becomes chametz. If it's not water, but it's a juice, like a different type of liquid and water, then it's much faster. So, think about a case where you have matzah and you have a concern that there are particles of flour left on that matzah. And you're putting into some sort of a fruit juice, but it's not pure fruit juice. You're sticking it into your grape juice. And your grape juice has water in it. Does all fruit juices nowadays, the way You have to assume that all fruit juices have some water in them. Uh-huh. You have to assume that almost any liquid that's not pure water is in the category of fruit juice. Right. And therefore, not only are you going to have a problem that you would have if it was 18 minutes with water, now the amount of time diminished considerably. So, that's the reason that people, unless and we have it on the back on every box. Every box of egg matzahs that we certify, we write it should only be eaten by people who have to have egg matzah >> [snorts] >> cuz you're dealing with a complicated issue in the eyes of halakha. And therefore, because of that concern and because it's Pesach, and as much as we are careful about all dietary rules all year round, we're so much more concerned on Pesach because the halakha is chametz is also the martial even the smallest spec the smallest amount of comments is a problem on Pesach. As an extension of that concern. We're concerned who knows if there isn't some flour left on the matzah. And that flour come in contact with any liquid. Could be the beginning or the end of something really serious. That's the genesis of this a minute custom. And it came from some historical event where there a bottom actually found. Concerning matzah. Was there ever a matzah found with flour on it? I would hope not. I would assume yes. And again that's what the minute story is. >> That when when we when we talk about concerns and we talk about concerns of a lot of her. Concerns of a lot of her don't mean that we had. A situation and because of that situation we're doing something. We have to be proactive in a lot of her. So even if you are baking matzah and you have a huge bakery and you're baking thousands of pounds of matzah and you could tell me there was never a speck of flour. Left on your matzah. You could guarantee it. So now if I bake by matzah from your bakery and I'm careful about the broth I still shouldn't eat it. Because the concern isn't because it happened. The concern is it could happen and again because it's Pesach and because we want to be concerned we take that approach. So two follow questions. You mentioned that most fruit juice nowadays we should assume has water in it. I know there are different hug him of the broth there are some who won't dip in water but will in fruit juice. Is what are the different? Types of of men hug him of of the broth and. Well the broth is all this begins in the same place. >> Right. The people don't want to have matzah come into contact with water. Now the question is there are different levels to that minute to that custom. What I mean to say is there's some people that won't have matzah come into con- contact with water. Right. And that's gebroks, and that's it. Some people will say, "Well, fruit juice Fruit juice is very interesting in halakha. If it's pure pure fruit juice, where you could be confident there isn't a drop of water, which is very hard to be confident, because it's not just that there's no juice in the water, there was no juice on the equipment that that juice was made on. No water on that equipment. So, there are people who say fruit juice is if it's pure fruit juice, it can't become chametz when it comes in contact with water. It's only a problem if it's fruit juice and water. I don't have to be that concerned. Other people will say, "No, no. No liquids." Then there are people who will say, "What about matzah and oil?" So, they'll say, "Oil certainly doesn't have water in it." And even though they don't eat gebroks, they'll eat matzah brei, which is matzah fried in oil. >> Right. Other people will say, "No. Matzah doesn't come into contact with any liquid." There are some people >> And eggs and mayonnaise >> Eggs and mayonnaise is all the same. No, it's in my family we won't put mayonnaise on matzah until after Pesach, until the eighth day. A lot of people say, "Mayonnaise? It's eggs and oil. Why can't it be put on matzah?" There are people that if they have matzah on the table, that they're going to eat plain matzah, they'll always have the matzah covered. So, when they want a piece of matzah, they'll take the piece of matzah and eat it, but they won't leave matzah exposed in any way, cuz who knows if you leave it exposed, there might be some liquid that comes in contact with the matzah. So, what does the halakha say? Okay, what's the answer? I just gave you so many different variations. What's the right answer? All of the above. Every This is a khumra. It's a minhag. And everybody has a different way of applying that minhag, and everybody should follow their minhag. >> [snorts] >> Okay, so this is fascinating. So, in other words, we have this minhag khumra, and you're saying it's not a real concern. It's a good thing that some communities took on. How far does that go? Let me give Let me give you some scenarios, and >> [snorts] >> you're a rav of a shul in Boro Park, and you deal with real people and real needs, and and and and serious questions. So, I I'm going to try to give gebrochts a stress test. What would you say to the following cases? Let's say a family or an individual gets invited out to another family, and that individual does not eat gebrochts. He shows up at the home for Yom Tov meal, and the food is gebrochts. Do you say, "Sorry, I can't eat any of your food. I don't eat gebrochts." Or do you say, "This looks delicious. I'll eat it." So, the best way to answer the question, and people know I like to say stories. I'm going to say a story about myself. Okay, by the way, we won't tell the rebbetzin whatever you say, so you just >> No, she knows all my stories already. She's heard them. She could say them herself. So, I got married quite a while ago. I got married, and I actually got married not long before Pesach. And my I I discover that my in-laws eat gebrochts. I can't believe it. Believe it. >> [laughter] >> And we didn't hear the story the story yet. And my family we don't eat gebrochts. So, what do I do? Seder's coming. Going to my in-laws. So, my father-in-law shalom tells me that he had an older brother who also married into a family that ate gebroks. So, this is a really long time ago. And when he got engaged and his and his in-laws ate gebroks, what is he to do? So, he calls they went to a very prominent, distinguished Hasidic shirov. And they asked this shirov, "So, what do I do? They eat gebroks, we don't." And the shirov told him, "In your own home, you won't eat gebroks. But when you go to someone else, to your in your when you're going to your in-laws, and you should not say, 'Well, I'm not going to go to my in-laws because of this.' You can even eat gebroks." Wow. And my father told me, "That's what you should do." I wasn't ready to go that far. I wouldn't have eaten the the matzah ball. I could survive without them anyway. You know, I always find the most interesting the people who are desperate for the matzah balls on Pesach. There are 50 other weeks of the year and they never eat them. So, only on Pesach you need to have them. Stolen waters are sweet. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> I don't I can live without them any week. [clears throat] So, I wasn't going to eat, but I was going to not make a big deal just because they cook gebroks in their pots and pans and dishes are gebroks. For shalom bayit, I don't think it's worth making an issue out of it. Having said that, God has a great sense of humor. So, my mother-in-law, because she wanted to be a good mother-in-law cuz I'm the first son-in-law, felt bad for me and said, "No, I don't want him to to something that he's not comfortable with." So, she made separate pots and pans that are not gebroks >> Wow. for me. And then she got two more sons-in-law who also don't eat gebroks. And her parents came and they didn't eat gebroks. So, we ended up being the majority and the only one eating gebroks was my father-in-law. So, you said that she got separate pots and pans. Is that part of the humrah of gebroks to have separate pots and pans also? >> No, people who don't have gebroks don't need separate pots and pans cuz they don't have gebroks. >> but in other words But, if you want to >> gebroks, they will not eat from People who really In other words, you know, going and that's the way I look at your question. Going to your in-laws is something that you're not going to say no and you're not going to make a dispute and argument because of gebroks. But, if you were to invite me to your home and you eat gebroks, I don't have to go to your house on Pesach. So, if I don't want to eat gebroks, I just won't go. So, it's a very different situation and what I tell people and I tell to myself and I tell to people, what you have to do is you have to evaluate the situation. So, if it's somewhere that you have to go or you should go, it's one situation. If it's somewhere that you don't have to go and they eat and you don't, so you just don't go there. And what about the following case? Let's say in your home do not keep gebroks and you have kids who are in your kitchen and they make gebroks in your pots and pans or in your other kosher for Pesach. Would you would you advise the family to kosher it or to What would you tell them? No, you nobody koshes a pot and pan for gebroks. They put it away till next year Pesach. And you don't kosher on Pesach. I mean, it's not just gebroks. If a pot or a pan or something in your home became not kosher for Pesach over Pesach, you can't kosher on Pesach. So, it's not like if something became gebroks, you kosher it. You put it away for next year. But, if you have if you're keeping gebroks in your home and you're having guests, you would assume and obviously you have to tell them, but you would assume that it's right to tell them, you know, in our home we don't eat kitniyot. I'm not saying that you're doing anything wrong, but when you're visiting us, then you shouldn't eat kitniyot. It goes both ways. Um, you know, now the now the tables have turned in my life. And now not only do I have married children, but we go to them for Pesach. So, out of my four children who are both or married, three don't eat kitniyot and one does. So, this is really an example that you mentioned. So, what do I do? So, I don't have to go to them for Pesach. I don't have to I could be home. I could go to someone else. Right. So, I wouldn't go to their home for Pesach if they ate kitniyot. Because I have wonderful children and because they do want us to come, even though it's my son-in-law's custom to eat kitniyot, in honor and respect to us, he doesn't have any kitniyot in his home. And it's very common like >> There's a lot of mixed marriage going on. >> Yeah. It's not intermarriage, it's just mixed marriage. Is there I I know for a lot of minhagim minhagim that are based on a chumra in halacha that sometimes you have to be matir neder if they nullify the vow. If a if a wife who did not eat kitniyot marries a husband a wife who did not eat kitniyot marries into a family that does eat kitniyot, does she have to do hataras nedarim? >> Absolutely not. Cuz the halacha is very clear that a wife when she gets married accepts her husband's minhagim. That's part of getting married. And even if she ate kitniyot her whole life, um, if she does if the the night when she gets married, whatever her husband's minhag is, in both directions, stringent or lenient. I always say, "What did my wife do the night before we got married?" She went to eat Haagen-Dazs ice cream because I eat kosher only, and she didn't. So, she had to get her last non-kosher ice cream. That's one more forethought, right? Foresight. [laughter] So, let me move on. Now, this has been a very >> That was before I was to tell you. >> [laughter] >> This has been a very relaxed I'm going to now move on to a topic that might be a little more stressful. I want to talk about the OU and and Pesach. How What is the Pesach season at the OU? How many months in advance are are you working on Pesach? >> one group that's worse than my wife is the OU. Because we begin Pesach the day after Pesach. >> [laughter] >> So, Pesach at the OU is a 12-month-a-year affair. Wow. Frankly, weeks and months before Pesach, we finish Pesach. Cuz all the productions, and we have many productions, of Pesach products, both ingredients and finished material for Pesach, they have to be made and shipped and all be in the stores well in advance of Pesach. Wow. So, we finish Pesach very long before Pesach. But Pesach is very important here. It's important on many levels. First of all, it's important because halakhically, as we've been discussing, Pesach is so much stricter than than any other area of halakha. Cuz in other areas of halakha, again, these are questions that rabbis have to decide. There are different situations that if something not kosher fell into kosher, can it still be considered kosher? Can that still be considered kosher? You don't have those leanencies on Pesach. That's one issue. Right. And Pesach the OU we give hasgacha to over 15,000 factories in 107 countries around the world. But well over 90% of what we do is not with a full-time rabbi at the production. We have rabbis visiting these facilities on a periodic unannounced basis. But not visiting the plants sitting there. Right. OUP means that there was a rabbi there for the entire run. Wow. So arranging all of that and doing all of that is quite And the logistics, yeah. >> The logistics, the checking a company has a whole list of ingredients that they use that they know are acceptable. And then when comes before Pesach, become the Passover run, say throw that out because now we're starting all over again cuz we have to analyze every ingredient for if it's acceptable for Pesach, for Passover. Many times we have to kosherize equipment, also complicated and stressful. So Pesach is is a huge operation. It's a very important, complicated operation. And it comes with a lot of responsibility that we take quite seriously. And weeks and weeks before Pesach I we are ready inundated with questions. We have a hotline here at the OU answering questions about Pesach. We can't keep up. We have so many rabbis answering and they're here extra hours and we have everything trying to work and we just can't keep up. And it doesn't start It used to start two weeks before Pesach, then it moved up to Purim and it keeps on getting earlier and earlier. So OU kosher begins the day after Pesach uh preparing for the following Pesach. What is the volume of questions that you get around this time of year? So, we typical on average day we're getting a good couple hundred calls. And and I want to qualify what that means. Those are the people that called and those are the people that got through. But there are a lot of people that don't get through, but we try to get to everybody. And number two, a lot of people just look up the information online on the web or can communicate with us. We have the web rebbe who answers questions on the email and on chats. But in terms of phone calls we got the we got about 9,300 calls from Purim to Pesach. Wow. The record of the biggest the largest number of calls volume we got in one day is we got 1,100 calls in one day. It wasn't the same question. >> [laughter] >> But a lot of the questions were repetitive. And we have, as I said, many rabbis answering. We have >> have to onboard new staff or open up new phone lines for >> No, still we have two rabbis who all year round all they do is just answer questions. One does all the questions on the phone and one does all the written communication. That's all year round. When it comes to Pesach season all hands on deck. Everybody does their part in answering the calls. And it's not just here at the OU. I, for example, I'm on the radio every night answering questions. I'm not the only one. We we're visiting all sorts of communities. This year alone, I know we're going to Boca and we're going to Lakewood and we're going all Monsey and Brooklyn all over the different types of places where our rabbonim our experts are going out to educate and answer questions about Pesach. And we, because we're concerned about people being able to get the answers even erev Pesach, the day before Pesach, we have rabbis who are available to answer questions on online, and we have rabbis even Sunday before Pesach. Our office is typically closed on Sunday, but we're all available to answer calls just because we're out there and want to be out there to help people prepare a kosher Pesach. And the rabbonim in the OU who are responding, like you said, all hands on deck. They all do their learning on themsel- but you know, on their own at home and then they come in or the OU has trainings and meetings about >> all trained. We have meetings. There's There's a lot of information. The amount of information that the rabbonim at the OU have, not just about OU products, obviously about OU products, but but kosher in general and the kashrus of products is is incredible, staggering. And all that information, we're prepared and willing and able to share with the community because that's what we're here for. Are there like five very common questions that you wish you could just put up a sign and everyone would know? >> Yeah, of course. We We We could tell you ready is is frozen Does frozen fish need special Pesach supervision? Does bottled water need special Pesach supervision? I could do these questions in my sleep. They think it's the first time this question was ever asked, and we encourage people asking questions. It's just a little hot. Right. And and because the there's such a growing population of people who will not eat gebrochts, has the OU incorporated that into their Pesach certification? Do you have OUPNG? No, we don't have a special designation for not gebrochts, but you could easily identify if something is gebrochts or not. If you know it's if you'll see matzah meal then you'll know it's Gebrochts. That's the biggest sign that it's Gebrochts. And we don't incorporate it into our symbol. We don't incorporate it into our symbol. But what happens is that the companies who are manufacturing products who are not Gebrochts or the people who are running programs they're not Gebrochts. That's a marketing tool. Right. >> it's a marketing tool they'll do it. Because they want to do it. So it's not something that we're as actively involved with. Do you think it's actually a possibility to have a non-Gebrochts kitchen? Very easy. In other words if you really think about Gebrochts the one thing that will typically create Gebrochts is matzah meal. Mhm. Cuz people aren't cooking with a whole matzah. Or they aren't baking to cook with a whole matzah. It's only with matzah meal. Somebody who's running a non-Gebrochts program whether at home or in a hotel doesn't have any matzah meal. So if you don't have any matzah meal then you're not going to have any questions. Yeah. In other words that's really where Gebrochts begins and ends. Okay. Now I want to shift. Somebody told me you look nervous. I said I'm nervous because I'm interviewing a real elephant and a real elephant doesn't like to talk about himself so much. But I'm going to try. So you're running an organization that has that certifies 13 over 13,000 companies or facilities. >> Facilities. 15,000. >> 15,000 companies. >> That's plants around the world. But who's counting? >> Who's counting? And you have hundreds or thousands of staff. How did you get involved in this? Where did you start? Oh, goes back a long time obviously. First your wife Haagen-Dazs and then the next step was After Haagen-Dazs, I was still Berkshire learning in Yeshiva. Not thinking about these kind of things. And I was learning in a Kolo in Brooklyn in Machon L'Hora'ah. And there was somebody who had learned there previously who had a position here at the OU. And at that time, it's 38 years ago as I said, more already. Um the OU was looking for another Rabbi to work in the office. And Rabbi Genack was was Rabbinic Administrator. And he told me and he told Rabbi Genack that he that he thought this would be a good fit. I was interviewed. And we're here. Wow. And Do we have to do the 38 years in between? Skip that. But I I am curious because I know that you are not an alarmist and that when it comes to kashrus concerns or any concern, you know, we've we've worked on a few projects together that you are thinking about the tzibbur, you're thinking about the community. You don't rush into things, you think about things very carefully, analyze them, but at the same time when there's an issue, you're not afraid to call a spade a spade. And if this is the truth then then we go then we go with it. Were those Did you have role models that you have, rabbaim that you picked that up from or was it more just I I often quote the following. As I said, I was learning in Kolo in Machon L'Hora'ah. The Rosh Yeshiva was Rav Tuvia Goldstein, zt'l, who was a very prominent Rosh Yeshiva and a posek, person to decide halachic questions. And because he was trying to train us in being able to also at answer a lot of when he would get a question which wasn't your typical question what broker do you make on water he would call us together and he would say to us so what do you guys think is the right answer like that we developed a method and approach to answering a question so one day he calls us over he got a question but this one was like you know really on top of the charts the details are not important they have nothing to do with Pesach or Gabrooks really really serious question and started having a very serious conversation yes no maybe and after we had finished our conversation and everybody had gone back to their seats I stayed standing there and I said to him could I ask a question respectfully he says yes so I said you know we get questions as rabbis we get questions all day that's what we're supposed to do get questions and give answers and hopefully you're going to give the right answer but usually question you know if a food is Gabrooks is not the same if somebody's going to live or die so how do you take it on your shoulders to make that decision and he told me three words that Khazars our sages use Kira Kakh Notzarta which means that if a person believes if a person believes that what he's doing he's doing cuz that's what God wanted and wants him to do. So, that's why he's here in the world. And that's what you're supposed to do, cuz that's why you're here in the world. And I live with those three words. I wouldn't say just every day, I would really say every hour. There are some tough days and there are some tough situations, there are many good days and many good situations, but there is everything in what I do. And sometimes you would just say, what do I need this for? But then I remember what my rabbi said, kilo kach metzarto. If you believe that that's why you're here, then you don't get then you do what you got to do. You have thousands of students um through your Daf Yomi shiurim, through your Kitzur Shulchan Aruch shiurim, your Rav Hershel It's interesting, I actually got a call uh last year. There was a fine Jew in his 90s, Mr. Josh Eisenstein. And like most people in their 90s, they're home. Uh he asked his grandson-in-law if he could find out where you say Daf Yomi because he'd been listening to you for years and he finally wanted to meet you and attend the shiur in in in person. So, you're you do a lot more than I kosher. You're running the busiest kosher operation in the world. How do you manage your time? So, there's a lot of answers to that question. The first answer is siyata d'Shmaya. The second answer is having a very supportive wife. My wife really supports me in all of my projects and tries to take away um any other distractions so that I could be devoted to OU Kosher and to my shul and to my shiurim. That's why if you'll ever see me in a grocery store, which you probably won't cuz it doesn't happen. You know, we just said that would be a great skit. Send me Rabbi elephant to the store cuz I don't know anything is I don't know how to buy anything. Because my wife really takes away all distractions from me. And you know, it's it's there's one more very I believe key to success to success in general and to answering your question. And it's interesting that you ask the question in a Pesach themed program. Many years ago, I was in Montreal on business and there was a very prominent famous Rabbi who lived in Montreal the Tash Rebbe. Tash Rebbe. And I went to visit him. I was in Montreal anyway. I come to [snorts] the Tash Rebbe and actually my father's family they come from the same neighborhood in Hungary as Tash. So there was a fam- familiar connection and we're talking with a it was a great conversation and as we're ending the Rebbe I turn around to the Rebbe. And I ask him what what does the Rebbe feel a Jew should put energy into? What what should a Jew try to do better? He says to me what is the holiest night of the year? I said, what is the holiest night of the year? He says, the Seder night. And he says, why is the Seder night called Seder? It should be called matzah. It should be called dal koses four cups of wine, maror, whatever. Maybe gebrochts, maybe called matzah meal, maybe called matzah balls, I don't know. Why is it called a Seder? Because what marks the Seder? What does the word Seder mean? There's a it's organized. There's a schedule, there's a system. He says, "What you should always remember and concentrate on is try to remain organized." Wow. And if you'll be organized in your thought, organized in your life, then you'll be able to be very successful and do a lot more than you think maybe you could. So, you said that you begin OU Kosher preparing for Pesach the day after Pesach. Is there ever a moment where you personally or OU Kosher takes a deep breath in and says, "We did it. You know, we helped Klal Yisrael this year." We do it every day cuz we didn't do it every day we couldn't survive. There's a lot of pressure, there's a lot of complaints, and we got to do what's right. And we take a lot of deep breaths, and we don't always sleep so well, whether it's because we're getting calls all the time from the mashgichim in in China or because it's a big responsibility that we carry. But, we hope for Siyata Dishmaya. So, before we stop, I want to clarify one thing that I think a lot of people are confused about. It's the eighth day of Pesach. First 7 days, kitniyot for many families is the second, besides for chametz, the second most um influential, you know, law in the home. When it comes to eighth day, it's still Pesach, but all of a sudden, matzah balls, you know. So, there's really a number of points to that. First of all, we know that the eighth day of Pesach is only mid'rabbanan, it's only something that we keep in chutz la'aretz. In Israel, Pesach is only 7 days. So, because it's not on the same level, so you could be a little more lenient. I don't want anybody to get the wrong idea. It's only on kitniyot. You can't eat chametz. >> [laughter] >> And if you are Ashkenazi and don't you kitniyot, you can't eat kitni on the eighth day. It's only gebroks. So, because it's not that same level. But, there's another element to it, which is a very important element, and it's an element that whenever you speak about gebroks, I think it has to be part of the conversation. Because gebroks is a chumra. It's a valid chumra. It's a minig, and every minig that people keep is very important. Pesach is a holiday of minhagim. It's a holiday of customs. That's what it's all about. So, you can't just walk away from minhagim, and you shouldn't walk away from minhagim. But, you shouldn't use minhagim to create disunity in Klal Yisrael. You know, you eat gebroks, and I don't eat gebroks, but you're not less than I am, and I'm not more than you are. We're all just doing what we think is the right thing to do. And on the eighth day of Pesach, where the whole Yom Tov you ate and I didn't, we want to show that all these differences are not important, and they all fall away. And gebroks should never be used to cause acrimony. It should never be used to cause disunity in a family. You could work it out. You could work out that people could sit at the same table even if they don't have the same customs. I could tell you a big share of the questions I get this time of the year, you know, what's kosher? The OU has a wonderful directory. The OU has those rabbis who are answering the questions all the time. >> [snorts] >> But, there's so many questions about families, and Israel even more so, where you have Sefardim and Ashkenazim who have very different minhagim sitting at the same table, and tell a Sephardi that he can't eat rice on Pesach is something that they can't understand. So, does that mean if your daughter married a Sefardi boy, you shouldn't have met your table? You should have met your table. You should figure out a way that you should be sitting at the same table. I always say the story. The first Belzer Rebbe had an elderly mother. And Hasidic community, they don't eat Gebrochts. And it was at the seder, the first night at the seder, his mother was an elderly woman. There was no way she could eat the matzah. So, she put the matzah into water. That is the real McCoy. That's real Gebrochts. And everybody, all the Seder that was standing and sitting there, were horrified. And what did he do? What did he do? You know what he did? He ate a piece of that matzah. Cuz he wanted to show showing respect to my mother and not making [clears throat] her feel bad is more important than anything else. And you And I again, nobody should walk away throwing away a minute of Gebrochts. If you can have that, then you keep it. But everything should always be kept in proportion. What's the most common mistake or what's If there's one message that you would give to the public about Pesach that would be? So, the message I would give is there are so many stores nowadays that have Pesach sections or Pesach stores. And you walk into the store and your assumption is that this is a Pesach store. So, everything here is kosher for Pesach. And I don't have to check if it has a Pesach symbol. And the story I always say is the woman who called me on Erev Pesach who had cooked 24 rolls of gefilte fish that she bought in a Pesach store assuming that they were all kosher for Pesach last year. And then somehow or another she realized on erev Pesach that the rolls of gefilte fish that she had cooked had a just plain O U but not OUP. They were real chametz because they put chametz into the gefilte fish. They put bread crumbs or whatever. So I'm not even talking about that she didn't have any gefilte fish for yom tov and that she had to throw out of all the 24 rolls. But the pots, the pans, the silverware that were all used in preparing those 24 rolls of chametz gefilte fish. The question it was really bad and it could have all been avoided. This is not sometimes things are unavoidable. This is something that could have been avoided. Just look for the kosher symbol. We can keep going for a long time. I there are so many things [music] that you in your position have insight in and have experience on and we definitely want to have you back for another round but this has been You know what the good thing about Pesach is? They'll come back next year. >> [laughter] >> Well thank you very much for coming. It's really been fascinating and and inspiring. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Thank you for tuning in to Keeping It Kosher. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe. We'll see you next month as we continue to uncover the stories behind the symbol.