Women & Sifrei Torah Pt II | Rabbi Anthony Manning | September 10th 2025

Good morning everybody. Thank you all for coming. It's great to see people. If I could just reiterate the requested to please turn off your phones. Um I'd like to thank our sponsors for the year that all the shirim in 2024 25 sorry behind the times our sponsored leu zi and brought bandit uh and we're very grateful for that sponsorship. So last week we opened with a very interesting I thought it was interesting I enjoyed it anyway shar on the issue of women in cifray Torah part two is today which is the issue of dancing and women's hakafot with the cif tora which is a topic we haven't looked at before this is all leading up to the even more I think involved topic of women and laning from cif to which I was hoping to do next week but then I realized this is a new topic we haven't prepared before this is at least two sheir rim possibly three and I cannot possibly crank crush it into one she next week cuz you will be all left uh disappointed as will I. So next week we will not be dealing with that. I will put that off to after the my apologies if you were excited about that but don't worry keep you know keep you on because it'll it'll happen. Uh and next week we'll have a topical uh issue that will relates to rashipa. Next week will be our last sh before the uh the Wednesday after that is already sh the Wednesday after that is already kippa and then it's sukus. So after the week after not the week off but the week after we will start again in these shim issue. >> Right. So you'll have to work out between now and then what you're doing about women's laning on simara. If if that if that's your thing, >> what's that? >> There'll be more. >> There'll be more sim to come and this is something which is not just people do this on a regular basis. So not for now. Um so in part one by way of just summarizing what we did last week and I brought you a summary at the beginning of today's sheet in bullet points. We saw that safer to should be moved as little as possible and only where its own covet is enhanced. We saw some really strong statements on that. postkim that didn't even want to take a a safer tora to a shiver house didn't even want to take a safer tora across the cottel plaza to a minion because you shouldn't be moving a safer tora the people come to the safer the safer does not go to them even the long route that we take around the shul when we bring the safer tora out for people to kiss it the postkimo are already saying well you know it's I suppose it's accepted now it's kavra but it's not ideal really the people should come to the safer the second point we made is that cifric tora are not susceptible to tuma which means that anybody who is t can lift them and carry them and open them and read them according to the strict letter of the law which would mean that a woman who is in need is definitely permitted to hold a safer Torah uh to open a safer Torah to read from a safer Torah I'm not talking publicly yet we'll deal with that sh nevertheless we said that we brought from some very strong sources over the last thousand years that there is a very strong minhag for women who are in need not to uh and we saw there was some extreme statements of this not to touch a safer Torah not even to daven not even to make brahas not even to uh to engage in the basic religious activities lighting candles etc and we said and we'll see this remark again today that this is clearly not the minhag today women clearly do davin all the all the time um and the remark said that women also do come to shul Although he uh he said that this was really only on the yam nay that there was a custom for women to come on the yam nim and we we have to we asked last week and we will ask again what's the difference with the yamim nay and he said that people are going to be very sad very depressed uh very unhappy to be left out of these big set occasions and therefore even though women he said do not come to shining krakow the rest of the year if they are nida they do still come for um for the amar and we're going to have to just analyze what is the difference between them uh etc. So we will look today at two issues. The first one I will look at very very briefly which is the issue of taking the safer Torah round the shaw into the women's section on the way back to the iron all the way from the iron. I don't know if you've been in any shs where they do this but this I wouldn't say this has caught on. This is still, I think, quite rare, but I've been to a number of shows where this has happened that the man takes out the safety from the Aaron walks down uh takes it around the men's section, hands it over to a woman, she takes it around the women's section, hands it back to a man, takes it to the beamer, and the same in reverse on the way back. Um, most are not particularly happy about this or very unhappy about this. And all I will do is refer you to five or six sources at the beginning of the sheet, which I'm not going to read. Um in number one and number two I brought you a two uh sakim from Ravosnner and from Rav Zilbustine they are not talking about this specific issue they're simply talking about taking the safer toe around the men's section where the women can reach out and and touch it and kiss it and even that they're very very lukewarm about and you can look at their reasoning yourself and I don't think it would be a stretch to say that they would clearly be unhappy with the idea a of taking out the safetera into the women's section. But I brought you also by way of balance in number five. I brought you a piece from Rabbi Avi Weiss. Now you can imagine that Rabbi Abi Weiss from Riverdale was quite keen on this Minhack and actually this is an early piece from Rabbi Weiss in 1982 when he was innovating some of these new ideas. He talks about what he did in Riverdale. Uh the women who supported it, the women who opposed it. Um and uh then I brought you a short piece at the bottom from Dha. I strongly strongly commend the the website Dha. It's a fantastic website. It's just a nicely put together site, but also very easy to use and also very packed jam-packed with women's hakic issues. It's excellently uh curated and edited. Um Lori Novik and and Shaina Goldberg very involved in this. And therefore I I brought you a piece from there which I thought put out the arguments quite fairly one way and the other. It's up to the shaw and the different shaws will have different uh sensitivities. So I'm not going to really get into that issue because it will take us too long and then we won't have time for all the dancing and we can't stop the dancing. Uh therefore I will leave you to read that on your own. Let's start at the top of page three. What could be the issues with women dancing with the safeter? So let's start with the general minhagug of dancing with safetyra. Where does this come from? It's a very strange thing to do. Usually the safety is very gently taken out, gently put back and then all of a sudden on on everybody's waving it in the air and dancing around the room says the Ramba talking about the in the in the in the there is a mitzvah to increase this. But not everybody got involved in this dancing, this this exciting uh spirited dancing as they brought the water up to the mish the mikdash. Not everybody got involved. Not the not anyone who just felt like dancing. He's getting this directly from the Mishna theim only the top echelons the the leaders of the community. They were the ones who do did the dancing but the regular people the menim and the women yes they came they were the audience they came to clap they came to applaud they came to cheer but they did not come to act wildly that was restricted for the leaders now that's very interesting Because as we get into Simatra, we'll see that this was originally the Minug on Sims. Not everybody just a free-for-all running around and dancing up and down, but this was it was much more controlled. And in the last h 100red years, it's kind of got a little bit out of hand. Uh not to not to mention a little bit alcoholic, which we'll talk about as well. Look at number eight. Um generally speaking, dancing on yont is prohibited. There is a general a rabbitic law number eight says that the following activities are prohibited because of is the name for a rabbitic rabbitic prohibition on y for shabas. Um and included in that list is loapim the sapkim the loyim clicking your fingers and slapping your thighs and dancing around the room. They are all prohibited on a rabbitic level. Why? Because the Gammora says because once people start jigging around and dancing and clapping, someone's going to grab a guitar, tune up the guitar and that's an isodor writer to tune a musical instrument or to fashion the musical instruments to make some kind of makeshift music. That's an isodora and people were obviously very you know tempted to do this and therefore they made a clear gazer. You're not allowed to do these things. I remember even on Shabas when I was younger grumpy old men in the shaw stopping people dancing and saying you it's assur to dance in shabas who dances on shabas uh now it's almost ridiculous to even imagine that people would not dance around the room everybody dances around the room used to be uh Judaism used to be more kind of staged than it is today let's say okay sim clearly is an exception and the gaonim record this number eight look at nine sorry number nine will be yans of sheni this is from the gaonim but on the yans of sheni on the second day what we call they were in Babel they had already gives the people dance even the old people meaning the elders again the elders the people who are the the teaching the others when they all sing to the Torah um because this is as a prohibition And because it's they made an exception because there's a general principle that two levels of Rabon are usually permitted mitzvah and since this is two levels of dabon meaning generally speaking dancing on yonf would be a rabbitic prohibition and it's second day yf where everything is a rabbitic prohibition to start with. So you have two levels of the Rabon and you have the mitzvah of Torah and that's the exception that we make on Torah. But it's interesting he talks about the zakim the zakim are dancing the rem brings down in number 10 we call this this last of we make a special suda that we finish the Torah. I think he's talking about kdish that we make. That's probably what special suit we that's what we have in Poland is we take all the out in the evening in the morning and we say we sing praises and songs and everyone does its own thing in its own way and then we do Okay. We are the with the Torah. So again he records that they get the cifra out and they put them people sing and there's a that they carry them around the beamer etc etc they carry them round the bema but again no mention yet of uh of wild dancing. The idea of dancing seven with dancing as well as just processing is from the Arizal. It's from the makubalim and I brought you here from the in number 11 he quotes the rash of sharabi who was very one of the most important cabalists of the of the 1700s and he quotes as follows number 11 at the very beginning of the service we put the safetra down because of course it's safe for they put it down on the bear okay and there's a man standing there holding in the safety to make sure he doesn't wobble or fall off calls man while everyone does I got this from theashpid al he was mpid what was he magpid on either they all do hakot or that the safh is in the middle and someone holds it but again they're not doing hakafot dancing with the safer tora they're doing hakafot around the safeter the midnight that we have today sort of I mean just the beginning of that comes from a very interesting book called the Now I don't know how much you know about the I didn't know very much but I know a lot more now that I've been working on this year this week the is a very controversial safer it was it's a cafer it recalls a lot of minhagim it's a cabalistic safer and it was first published in the early 1700s by Raviakov algazi who was a very famous farad pisk but it was not his book and he published it anonymously he said well I'm not going to tell you who wrote this book I'm going to publish it and people can read it and it's going to be very you know impactful on Minhagim etc etc almost from the very beginning there was a great deal of suspicion why would you publish a book at the beginning of the 18th century anonymously what was going on in Turkey and around Europe at that time this was exactly this was the fallout after the Shabites debacler of the 1660s And this at this exact time where people like Rav Yakov of Endon were on the lookout for anything that even smelt of uh Sebatian tendencies and he immediately zeroed in on this book and he wrote very clearly this book is Sabatian. This book has to be off the menu. You cannot have this book. It should be taken away. Uh and his theory it was written by Nathan of Gaza. Nathan of Gaza, of course, was Shabisi's right-hand man. Every Messiah needs an elya and Natan Azati was a very accomplished makubal. Shabesi himself was not such a big talam certainly not as much as Natana. Natanana Zati was the spin doctor. He knew all of the stuff. He has a whole cabalistic approach which is seatian in nature. And Rabyakov em said this book is seat. It may not be touched. Others disagreed very strongly. There were others who said no this book is legitimate and it was supported by many Sari Rabanim and to this day there is a debate about this to this day. There's even a version of the book that was printed with a poem with an acrostic of Natanati in it. So that's a pretty much a giveaway but there were others who disagree. If you look at the academics you'll see I brought you in the uh in the uh footnotes. You don't need to read them right now. uh but uh for example Boaz Hus and Gersham Scholam uh and Yesha Tishbi who wrote a lot about this say the book is Sebatian other people say the book is not Satian so there is to this day there is debate why is that of interest to us because we'll see he is the origin or at least one of the first people who records lots of minhagim that we do for example we'll see in a minute where does the come from to say David everyone's mp to say that's where we're getting it from. There were a number of Lithuanian postkim that stopped saying David or when it turned out that it was from the and to this day there are people who don't say David Zaka the beginning of Yonkipa he's one of the main sources for zaka um and many other things as well if you you can you can Google it online you'll see other ideas that come out um that come from the kdas yamim so a very controversial very interesting book uh and as I say the jury is still out on on how that works. Um, look at number 12. So, I'm going to quote from the book because it's on the Baran CD, so it can't be that bad. But, uh, but also it's it is quoted a lot by different people. Rab was very happy to quoted, although as I said, many others not. Number 12, it says we bring the Torah not just out on we take it under. So, he says as follows. any you can do in front of the safer [Applause] it is from the word there is a parallel there is a there is a match between what we do down here and what happens up there the more we have down here the more is up there aim and of course this is all energizing certain aspects of this I don't know if he's specifically talking about bina which is often called imma the habanim I'm not but he's saying it does real things. Therefore, we bring out the sacred. We put them under a and we dance in front of we do a in front of the under the like bringing them under the you have to be very very particular to make for the sake of Torah which is a from that I think he says you're going to be damaging you're going to be knocking holes in the in the sh in shama in the heavenly edifice of What's going on if you don't do a Have you ever seen anyone do a kupa with a safer Torah under a >> haknasa safetra? Yes, that's very interesting. So maybe that survived in haknasa safetra. Um I don't know if it's at all related but one of the things that really infuriated the rabbon of Turkey that started to to push shapes completely out of the community is he performed a wedding under a ka with a safeter where he married a safeterra. Now that's not the same thing as what's going on here. But the minute the minute I saw Torah and in the same sentence, it in my mind it raised the question as to whether there was anything going on here. Could be nothing. I'm not saying it's connected. And you're right. We do this still with the space. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. We do the that's very interesting over the Torah. Maybe that is one of the one of the survivors of this min. Anyway, but still he said the dancing is in front of the sacred terra. Next paragraph take the from under and go around seven times. They take them from the Torah Torah. They do it singing in front of the cate and they dance seven just like hosana. And then the last paragraph he says anyone who is true servant of God should be lifting the on these occasions was in front of the Torah and you should go wild. Don't be worried about that you're going to look silly as the dancing wildly people will make fun of you and the people will will look down on you even if you think you're a big was greater than you much greater than As we know David went wild was critical etc. But again we see from here dancing in front of the safer Torah. When did things become like they are today. So I brought you already number 13 a uh a quote which references uh the minag of bkarest. Okay. So the chief rabbi of Israel, Ra Yakov al Yashar, uh quotes the Rav of Bkares, which is in Bulgaria, right? If I'm not wrong, I think somewhere like that. Um and he says as follows, number 13, Romania, excuse me, Romania. Excellent. Thank you. who this raven saw that it wasn't the the the the uh zakanim of the community that were lifting up the cifer to do the hack office. It was the average people theim and the youth were taking the cifer the coverat and they were not behaving properly. for Zion in the morning seven which interesting nice to start he wanted to try and crack down on this and you'll see soon coming out of many of the postgmanu when they talk about women's hakoffas one of the things that they immediately say is we don't like men's hakoffus what men are doing with the cifra is not correct and now you're asking if women should do it Why would we expand something which is already not correct? Now you you can decide whether you feel that's a fair argument or whe the women are going to say well all the time the men were doing it you put up with it and now that we want to do it you won't do it. Yes. >> Started with saying that this was only >> yes >> which is which is which is only coming to Zion. >> No no no Torah for seven. >> No and in the morning zarim. Yeah. He's not. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, let's get to women. Let's get to women. So, generally speaking, there is an incentive on Sim's Torah to try and involve everybody. Number 14. Whatever we can do to increase mitzvah says the rabb on we should do. Now, of course, he's not talking for one second about women's hackers. He's just giving a general clout. But it's important to mention that general sort of metahalahic urge on that day to spread the sim. But I did find on the draa website a very interesting source from verbs in the 17th century. So that's you know not early in the community in worms but in sort of early modern period and he says as follows the the kazan of the shaw says like this the shamash minashim what was the min of the women in verms in 1700s. between on the night before they came in all their beautiful clothes all their lovely and they came to the outside courtyard of the shul in front of the the outside entrance to the road the nashim of the women's shul interesting they had a women's section there and most of the women especially the young girls who've got all this energy they all take each other's hands and the head of them is interesting the wives of the braces they are also given the kavod at the front of the crowd the eagle and they make circles dancing and they sing gigd interesting I don't have a special tuneer [Music] So there was a minhag of women's dancing again nothing to do with the safer Torah here but the idea of women coming out and dancing on silk Torah is a very old old minhagen why not why would women not dance and in fact when Rav Ravia's son uh was commented on that he says clearly number 16 of course it's mut for women to dance on terror. Of course, they're clapping and dancing in Torah. The problem only comes when they want to dance with the safer Torah. Uh but the idea of women dancing and actually this is a very important first point. Many women that have spoken to me say Torah for women is very boring. They stand, they watch the men dance around, drink whiskey, behave badly, and the women just stand there like shmearles and they and they look. So the first thing is before you even get into a discussion about safar, why isn't there dancing for the women, forget about the safetera, have women's ruin in a special part of the shul and and have someone organize it and the young girls and and someone exciting and energizing and and that that for sure should be. There's nothing to talk about. A shul that doesn't put that on is for sure just ignoring the women. They should at least have the dancing and that's been minis for for generations and generations. So that's the first thing and actually in Alanut which I'll refer back to soon because Arshel had a something of our community about seven eight years ago had a major debate on this issue what we're going to do on Sasra and Arshel actually has uh three different things going on for the women at the same time. Uh one of them is the women just stand and watch. Okay. Some women like to stand and watch. If you like to stand and watch that's great. Some women like simas they can just relax and chat with their friends and stay home and come late that's good. If you want to do that that's great. Then we have women's dancing just women's dancing just without a safeter. And then in the amot downstairs which is not technically part of the shaw they have women with the safeter. So we'll get to that in a minute minute as to who said yes who said no. the the debate that we had about that and my wife says it's about a third a third a third there's you know a third of the women stand and watch a third of the women dance without the safety third of the women dance downstairs with the safety but why would it be an issue at all so there are three basic concerns the first one is the issue of nida that we raised last week let's have a look again briefly at the what he says number 17 we looked at this last week but for those who weren't here last week or have forgotten what we said let's look at it briefly again number 17 says in all people who are can read from the canma apart from we said last week a man who's had a seinal mission that was a special rebinic Ezra separating them from all other vas and they said they can't do this they're not allowed to so that would not be like chickens with their wives. I think he means overdemanding, overindulgence, etc., etc. But we know that that all got cancelled, but they cancelled the and they went back to the regular. You don't have to go to the mikvah anymore if you're a man. Even a You don't even have to do which is standing under a shower and as we said there are you know certain people who would go to the mikvah but then in chimes the so according to the according to the no there's no problem with a woman lifting a safer uh reading a safer etc says the in the script but there are other opinions a woman when she's actually menstrual uating during the days that she's bleeding shouldn't come into the shel and she shouldn't even dishe or even mention God's name no or the safer or even touch the safer now again does this mean just a safer tora or even as far a safer at home which is very interesting because if she's not coming into shul why would she be talking about touching a cifera although people had cifher at home as well could be that now it's interesting that even though that sounds extreme we saw last week it makes it into the rama as one of the opinions and other people say no no no we don't do that at all and that's the so nobody disagrees on the that the women are allowed to do all of these things it's not uh it's not prohibited but our in Poland is like the first opinion that women don't do anything at all but that's only when they're actually menstruating when they're just keeping their shakim then it's okay and we said at the end of last week What's the difference? If if the problem is tum, then the tumar doesn't change. The gammorra is very critical of people who make a distinction between the days when the woman is actually bleeding and the days of the shivim and somehow think that the shaim there's a lesser nida than there is. No sham, it's no different. So if it's all about tum, what's the difference? And therefore, we saw the rabak of suggest well maybe it's nothing to do with tum. Maybe it's just about personal hygiene. Maybe it's about the fact that women felt uncomfortable in shul they wasn't a lot of personal hygiene uh you know help available uh for for people who are menstruating maybe it's nothing to do with the need at all and then he says even if people are to say to the women that they shouldn't come on similar days where lots of people lots of women as well want to go to the even these other women can go. So again, we said, if your problem was tum, why are you just making an exception for the all of a sudden it doesn't matter? No, it's obviously something else. And he said, we're not going to stop the women from coming. And he says because it would be very upsetting for these women that everybody's there and they're left outside. And we said also last week that this was extended in the to a family mitzvah etc. The women are encouraged to be in. Okay. So what are we going to do here? So I brought you on the top of page five. The labrebi the labrebi was consulted in the 19 in 1970s by riskin. Rabbi riskin he should be well intab what he thought about women's hacus with the safer. Okay. Uh I'm sure he consulted with Abi Vice about Weiss about it as well and and all from the same era and in some ways from the same uh background in other ways not. But look at number 18. Another aspect of the promise says the Rebi which although it is not connected specifically to Sim's Torah and to the hakoff is still directly connected to the question of what should be the practical custom in this matter of women dancing with the Torah. I mean the abroad in the shuk 88 which relates to women in certain circumstances iid regarding visiting synagogue and safet etc. four quotes. It will be a great anguish for them when everyone gathers but they stand outside. Unquote. That's the rema says the Reb. One should note that the question there deals with entering the synagogue. Even then anguish is not enough to permit it but only great anguish. It's savonad. We see from this that in such matters especially regarding the safer Torah we have no power or authority to create new customs and certainly not to permit holding with the safer Torah for women. Now what's he saying? There are other things he talks about as well which hints to there which is the minhag of the beta which we'll get back to but he he says basically that the ra only made an exception on rashashana because it would be great greatly distressing for women not to come but to tell women that they can't have hakas with the safety will just be distressing but it won't be greatly distressing so one of the questions you have to ask is well how do you know I mean have you asked them and and if you ask them and they say it is greatly distressing when you ask a person that do you turn around and say, "Well, it's not really. You're just you're just saying that or do you believe them?" I I I have no clear answer to that. Who who is it objective? Is it subjective? He sounds like it's some kind of objective criteria. And actually, most postkim do not um really push this angle so much for a number of other reasons as well. First of all, the ramar already said that there are exceptions. We saw it's not a general rule for everybody. And he said in his community it was accepted the women didn't come during the year but they come on yam. Now today in almost every community I expect we're all from the women come the whole year. So that min obviously is not followed at all. The women come to shaw all through the year. So if that minag is not followed at all, why is it relevance for the issue of um of hakafas with the safety Torah also and I spoke to my wife about this when they have women's hakas with the safetyra how many women touch the safetra does everybody touch the safety tora so she no usually one two three women like we saw maybe you know the senior women hold the safety and everybody else dances if it's if it's a problem of nidan touching the safetra well why is it a problem for everybody else why is it surely it's only a problem for the women who are holding the safer Torah and let's face it a lot of women even if they are holding the safer Torah are not need that at all women who are still young and they haven't yet reached puberty women who are past the menopause women who are already in the shiva nikim women who are not tam at all have already been to the mikvah meaning of the of the women if you have a hundred women in the shul who want to dance with the safetra how many of them will actually be touching the satra and fall into this specific issue of actually bleeding in the there's a nida actually very few and then the question is is it right to stop the whole thing because there might be that concern there as well. And there are other things to talk about. Again, if it's a hygiene issue, then obviously that's not a an issue at all today in the same way. Um, how does this relate to Spardim? Okay, you can tell the Ashkenazi women, well, there are minhagium in Poland and D if that's relevant, but is that relevant to the Sparty women as well? So, I I brought all of these questions because I think my feeling was most did not really do not really focus on on this issue as an issue and I think it's probably less of a hakic issue. The second issue is covered Torah. Now let's look at some interesting questions here. Ariel Rabakov Ariel who of course was the chief rabbi of Ramatan from the datumi community to some degree at least. He says we're not even sure what the min is for the menra to dance with the safety. We didn't see a single source that said the men danced with the safetra. We saw that they dance around the safetra that they process with the rahakoffus with the sora but that the hamon danc with the satur. We don't know the makura. Yes. >> He said, what did he say? He said, let's have a look. Just one second. He said, and that we we sing. They take them out and they sing. I'm just going back to number 10. And they do hackers. >> Yeah. hackoffers around not like uh you know all all not any of this okay if if all they did I mean I'm I'm a bit of a killer on sim terror I would love it if they just did a hakafa and then said hakafa you know you know base I would love that and I would just we would take 15 minutes and we'd be y and everyone's fine so I don't he's talking about what we do today with like half an hour of dancing and the lifting the safetas up and down we didn't see anything like that the ham hamakori the original he says to do with the and he said then even for the safet was on the and they walked around the safety on the bim remember we said the says a man holds the safetra and and they walk around there are many problems of what we do today foreign people behave inappropriately with this foreign you can't behave like that with a safer Torah for And he makes the safety of Torah. They slept them, they pushed them, you know, they they grabbed them, they even rid them. Why would women want to do something that's already deeply problematic? If women indeed want to want to have a real, here's my suggestion. This is what I think that women should do. Okay. In their own environment and in their own atmosphere. Okay. They should dance and they should have to around the Torah like the original put a safer Torah on the beamer in the women's hall section. Get the women to dance around safer to Torah and sing around the safer Torah. He said that I have no problems with whatsoever because that's really what the men should be doing. Now let's go on. If you're going to look for a uh lenient opinion on these kind or at least not say lenient but let's say an opin opinion that really takes into account the the women's feelings on these issues was very in touch with that. Look at what he says number 20. If they really want to do give to the women which we said last week from the Gammorrah there's an idea there's a metahakic idea if the women are unhappy then we should all be unhappy and if we can allow them to do something which is not actually prohibited although it's usually not done but it can be allowed in a certain way then we should make them happy and we should have shalom with the women in the community if they really want to do that with This is what I think they should do in the women's section. He's not got a problem with the need. And even if it's a problem with Nida, so you'll find a woman that there's not a problem for. Yeah, I think he wouldn't have a problem with the need at all. Let a woman stand in the middle holding a safer Torah. The rabban needs someone important, someone they want to honor, an older person as long as she can carry it, etc. Okay. Okay. They they they let them dance around her. And let them dance around her. That would be a beautiful thing to do. There's no problem with that at all because we don't have any problems with women carrying safer Torah. He just dismisses that. And maybe the men will find out this is what the women do and they'll also do learn from that and behave more appropriately. Okay, got a question sir. >> Completely mineral. >> Ah, that's an interesting question. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. This is what you were alluding to as well that in Israel of course it's first day yon >> and it's a well yes dancing would be well with the women make for yon here as well >> okay because that issue is nothing to do with the women uh that issue is to do with the heter of dancing you're right it's an unusual thing >> even for right even for men you're right you're right simhas in Israel is a hodgepodge of different things all pushed together the simasura makes no sense at all in a one day yons of place the whole thing was designed for what shall we do on the last j and in a place where they read the safer Torah every year which was not the init and was not an issue in Israel. So now we have this kind of Constantina day with and is and everything alto together. It somehow just about works but you're right. It's a very very good point you're making but not relevant for the women. So yes sir >> there in there are some they do >> yes they do actually in some places I don't know what the do as well on they also do especially in the afternoon as well and now we do after as well we talked about that last week and we must go on. So should we say to the women no because what the men are doing is wrong and we shouldn't get more people to do it wrong. So I imagine the women would s would answer well that's fine but then stop the men >> make a new takana that the men have to do this and the women have to do this and let's see what happens and of course my my expectation is you'll have a revolution on your hands and the men will say that's not the min we've never done it the last rabbi was perfectly fine everybody else in the world dances with the safeter we're not going to stop and the rav will basically be ignored um and uh and then you'll have to decide whether you can insist on the to the women that you're you're doing something hakically which you don't actually also insist for the men and they'll say well that's that's just double standards when it comes to the men you're fine when it comes to the women all of a sudden you're mm on cover of Torah so good good luck with that one I hope that was if you're a synagogue rabbi one of the main issues which I want to focus on for the last 20 minutes of the shia 15 minutes of the sh is issue of the synagogue customh is very against this number 21 he's also talking about women's prayer groups which is is more problematic. So he puts the two together. This is a major departure from the traditions of our fathers and it's it's going through it's breaking down a offense in the Jewish people and it's separating from the community and we're particularly sensitive when it comes to shul why because of reform and conservative one of the first things that they changed is the shul service you have mixed seat eating you have it in English you have this you have musical instrument whatever you have and therefore we are very nervous he says when it comes to changing anything to do with the short service and after we've looked at it we've looked at it seriously in we've looked at it seriously it's prohibited no women's especially when it comes to the shaw is like a mikdash we won't allow it in it's we're very sensitive to it he says ramon raises the ra of our community is quoted in a private chuva when asked about women's sacus with the safetyra he quotes lienstein raaron lienstein of course the the son-in-law of salivic and we'll look at number 22 lienstein I would not allow says and he did not allow in the shs that he was involved in dancing with women. Sorry if there is a debate to be had that should be in the mid but he says but even in the midrashenstein when asked by his daughter Rabanid estie okay Rosenberg who is the rash midrasha in mikdal oz who is raikenstein's daughter she asked him should we have can we have hakafot with women of the seatra And they had a haknas to say for Torah said no. Okay, we'll see in a minute what he means by no. Leato says Rav Rav Ron according to Rav Likenstein is like a private place it's not inus. So resistance to changing the minhagim in the shul. Now what happened in mikdal o in mikdal they did not have hakafot with the safetyra for women after ra lilenstein died there was another haknasra and raanit sd consulted with the rashi shiva of the gush and they changed and they said they are going to have hakafot because they said that raikenstein never said it was in the midrash he didn't like one in the shaw but no assur in the midrasha but he didn't recommend it and they said okay he didn't say it wasur and and now it's like we've moved on and we'll see what that means moved on and therefore they now allowed it. Rav Rabinovich just confirms here in 23 um that uh of course the Killer has to be happy with it. Even if you're going to do what he said and have have a woman standing in the middle with women round again he didn't think that you should give the teter to all the women to dance but have one woman. He said only if the rav agrees and only if the shaw agrees and then you end up with this very interesting dynamic between the rav and the shaw. The shaw has to do what the rav says but the rav is appointed and can be fired by the shul. It's you have to do what the rav says to do but you choose which rav to ask and therefore this very difficult I've never been a shulra and I don't have any ambitions to be one but this is an issue which is very very sensitive and I saw in Harov as well in the in the datumi community there were many women who for years and years had tried to persuade um Ravoystein who used to be the rav there to allow women's hakaf with the safety to he said no no no no one year he said okay we'll we'll do it this Yeah. And there was a revolution. There were debates and disputes. And the RAV said, "We're going to have six weeks or something like that of Shirim on the pros and the cons and we're going to see, you know, so people can be educated, which is very sensible. And we're going to have a vote of the Kahila to see what to do because he said the RA as a Rav, I'm happy to permit it, but as a Kahila, you need to decide." And they they all took votes and I I wasn't there at this vote, but apparently it was exactly 50/50. >> So, what do they do? >> They don't have it now. He's gone. I think I don't think they don't have it now as far as I'm aware but I might be wrong. You can check that etc. Um I want to bring you two sources by one by Rav Mosha Miselman who is the nephew of Rafalik and one by Rav Moshikenstein the grandson of Rasvik. Two Moshers that do not see the world in the same way. Okay. Rav Mosha Miselman number 24 in his Jewish women in Jewish law. An associated issue, although technically totally different, is the permissibility of women dancing in the synagogue with Torah scrolls during Hakkod and Shaturra. This practice has been opposed by all contemporary rabbitical authorities. My revered teacher, Rabbi Joseph B Salvich, also his uncle, told me that he opposed this practice when questioned by synagogues in Brooklyn, Massachusetts, and New York City. The basis for this ruling, he told me, is the town that in Brahot that just as there is an etiquette that regulates one's behavior when visiting someone else's home, so too there is a tradition uh that regulates behavior in the synagogue. Thus, for example, eating in the synagogue is not permitted, and an element of proper synagogue behavior such as the prohibition against eating in the synagogue is explicated in legal detail by the Talmud and subsequent codes of Jewish law. The same applies to the introduction of innovations which our ancestors considered to be in conflict with the feeling of respect and all owed to the synagogue. Proper synagogue behavior is determined by practice and tradition. Since it has been the age-old practice of synagogues that women do not dance with casora scrolls during a cafot, the introduction of this practice will be a violation violation of synagogue etiquette. And even though Raf Meiselman is prone to stress the more right-wing side of Raf Solvich, let's put it this way to the point that some people say this is a distortion of Raf Sullivik's view. On this issue, you should know that Rabbi Norman Lamb includes this quote in one of his forum and and even if Rabbi Norman Lamb wouldn't necessarily agree with Rav Meiselman on the outcome, he presumably agrees that this was Rasvich's position, he would not have it. Again, what Rafa Salvich would say today is a good question. But uh then he clearly did not allow it. However, look in source number 25. for Mosha Likenstein who is a rashiva in the Gush and of course Raban Est Rosenberg's elder brother everything is connected here number 25 I think that women's dancing with the safer Torah in the women's section is desirable today 20 to 30 years ago it was not desirable the reason for this is twofold changes in prayer and custom and synagogue standards need to occur in a gradual and not a revolutionary fashion as an as additional changes have occurred in women's participation and involvement in the synagogue. This change adds onto a broader process and fits the current reality in a way that I did that I sense did not exist 20 to 30 years ago. My catchphrase evolution and not revolution is very correct here. So the first point is in 1976 when Rabariskin was asking the Reb and in 1978 when Rab Miselman was writing his women's involvement generally in the community was much more limited in the running of the Shaw. Now women are very very involved in synagogue practices. In many shors they have a a gabay a woman who's responsible for the things in the nashim and for leazing with the women just have a much greater involvement. It's 50 years later. So number one the the the context is different today. Women are already much more involved. >> Women are much more that's number two. Furthermore, I feel that the advances that have occurred in this time period in women's talah also make this change necessary. As long as the connection to Torah increases each year, so does the justification and expectation to dance with the safer Torah on simkat Torah. I would say this change is necessary even without this point. But this point certainly increases the justification for it. That's a very good point. In 1976, how many women were learning dafomi? I suspect very very few. There are thousands if not tens of thousands of women learning dapyomi today. Many of them on the third cycle second third cycle. There are women who give dafomi shirim. There are women who are yo halaka. There are women who are very learned. There are women who are graduates of jeeps and and these are women in the mainstream orthodox community who know an enormous amount of safer Torah of Tama Torah. And therefore it's not a tokenism. It's not like well if the men can do it why can't we? The answer is well we learn as much Torah as many of more than many of the men who are dancing around with the safer Torah cph tora. So why why should that be a disconnect? And then he says a third point additionally dancing with the safer Torah is not just a privilege but a challenge. If women expect to dance with a safer on it will also lead to expectations of occupying themselves with Torah over the course of the year. Nice message. You dance with the safer Torah. now go learn the safer Torah for the year ahead and it'll be a makay for those women to do it. So that's very interesting. So you see there are different views on this. Um it is somewhat iron ironic that synagogue practice should be the the uh the the reason why we're resisting change to minhagim because the whole nature of what happens in the synagogue on simas to Torah is is recent. It's all evolved over the last few hundred years even to the point that what actually happens is not what should happen as we've seen. So synagogue practice is probably a weakest in its justification on this issue. But nevertheless the there are voices that are very concerned. I brought you Rav Leza Burkowitz in his Jewish women in time and Torah. Now Burkovich was a somewhat controversial figure in Chicago especially towards the end of his life and he was a student of the Sredday Aish uh and he says uh very clearly what is the difference between the Sid's approach on minhagen which he's happy to change for example bat mitzvah we don't have time to look at it now but we've given this she a couple of times bat mitzvah the has a landmark tuber vineberg says even though we never did it before we should be doing it now it's very important for the young women etc. as opposed to using anesthetic for a brit where the shr said no way at all Israel Torah here we do not use anesthetic for a brickmillah absolutely against Israel what's the difference so says it's obvious what the difference was in the case of the anesthetic nothing has fundamentally changed they had anesthetics back in the day okay different ones but they had the ability to do this a thousand years ago and the rabbon said No, here with bat mitzvah the whole matsaf has changed. No one even gave this a thought. No one ever said this was not right because no one ever thought of it. So on this issue as well with dancing with the cifre I'm sure that rakovich would have been more supportive. I brought you um on page eight just very briefly in the last few minutes two difficult and exciting pieces from Rav Cook. You can read these in your own time. uh in 27 basically Ravk Cook accuses anyone who changes Minhag Israel of tearing down the edifice of Torah of uh of being uh completely destructive and rash and and unlearned. And in 28 he talks about like changing minhagim which now are outdated as being part of the coming of Messiah and and you can try and work out in your study of Rafkuk uh which of these applies in which situations but two very different situations um two different quotes and I brought them in English as well but not for now. The shredation 29 is the uh is the bat mitzvah one. Let me just read you a couple of lines from this 29. He says at the end of the day it's all about motivation. Why why are you trying to introduce about mitzvah? Are they doing it because this is what the Torah needs and the women need to be involved which is what the age agrees with or are they just going with other trends of the time? Are they trying to push an egalitarian agenda? Do they want equality? Do they say if the men have a right to this women should have a right to this? So he holds that motivation is an agenda is the key factor. Now I've been told when I've mentioned this to people usually I've been told this by women and they say well that's not fair because you never ask the men what their motivation is. You only ask the women what their motivation is. And I I respond that that's not true. He's saying anyone who wants to make a change. And by the way, on the issue of women dancing with the safety Torah, it's often women who are the most conservative and against these changes. It's not it doesn't split male female easily. And therefore, anyone who's making a uh a change uh they have to be the one that justifies if you like their motivation. And then the question is, well, how do you decide on motivation? How can I tell? People have the same person can have mixed motivations. Whose whose reasoning do you follow? Who do you listen to? How do you ask them? That's that's a good question. I brought you on page nine uh two uh chuvat. One is Rav Leor Ravdle Leor from um from Ravior is completely against it. Totally and utterly against it. He said these women who want to dance, you can read this in your own time number 32 with the Safa Torah. They're just trying to blur the distinctions between men and women. He said men are men and women are women and they have different essential qualities and they have different roles and women are not obligated in talora and therefore why should they be dancing with the safety conservative opinion on which you can ask many questions. Rav Mosha in number 33, Rav Mosha Feinstein is talking about feminism more generally and he is also against anything that seek to seeks to blur distinctions and agendas etc etc and again all all of these issues what's that >> 197 >> yes this is also from 1976 or raor is from 2002 >> yeah I agree I agree I agree 100% and it's a little bit like communism in the 1920s communism was a real threat to the frunkite of the yeshivas and the Jewish Communism is no longer an issue that we're dealing with. Reform is really no longer an issue. In the 1970s, feminism was a major challenge to Torah thought. I don't think feminism is the slicest challenge today. Feminism has moved in different ways, third wave, fourth wave to a point that most Orthodox Jews just are not comfortable with feminism at all. Women, most feminists from the 1980s and '90s are not comfortable with feminism at all. Half of them have been cancelled. Jermaine Greer, I mean, they're all out. They're all out. these were icons of the feminist movement and they've all been cancelled because they still believe the women are women and men are men and you can't that's that's that's not something you can say anymore. So, uh you're right. It's a question of but it all has to be weighed up. Okay. Conclusions in the last minute of the ship. Okay. So, uh you know you can't expect from me to come down clearly on this one way or the other. Um, if I were the rob of a shawl, then uh I think I would be more inclined if the shawl was okay with it to allow uh what rather binovit said in terms of women dancing around a safe and terror. But I'm not and therefore my opinions are irrelevant and decontextual. But I brought you on page 10 uh arguments for arguments against we've talked mo about most of these. Um there's al there is also a danger of constantly saying no to things which are actually not really a problem or don't have to be a problem because if you constantly say no you just push people out completely and then they end up doing things which are really a problem and I found this in the women's you know dealing with women in the community uh if there if there's never any room even when there are when there's room for that leniency then then that can be a problem as well. On the other hand, there are lots of agendas and to the point that this causes mlocus. This issue can destroy communities. No, I don't know which way that goes. It means you don't don't talk about it or just talk about it and deal with it. I'm not sure. And I brought you other things as well. Many women feel that sim is just a men's club, you know, especially with the drinking which is more of a problem in getting worse. Not so much here. And I brought you some uh some things at the end. And at the end of the last footnote I brought you the very sensitive resolution in Alanut between Ravitman who is the ra of the ishuv and ravon who is the rav of the shul. So ravitman is raman's boss and friend but raman is the rav of gushetsion. So ramon is also ravitman's boss and friend. So and and and and how and how they worked it out together. You can read that and uh you'll see what the answer is and uh and you can see for yourselves. Okay, let's leave it there. Thank you very much to everybody and have a uh good week. I'll see you next week. Please God.