Tzadik V’ra Lo part 2 by Rabbi Anthony Manning

We dealing with a very sensitive topic, one that I put off dealing with for many many years, which is why is it that such terrible suffering happens to people and we have no real understanding of what they could possibly have done to deserve it. And in the first year we looked at the issue of God's knowledge and free choice, a more philosophical chuva, the Rambam. In the second year last week we looked at the issue of what you might call skeptical fearsome, which is the approach that yes, God exists and if I understood God, I would be good. And I can't possibly God and that's not a cop-out answer. That is a logical, perhaps the most authentic, the most the most honest answer you can give. How can you possibly with such a narrow perspective on the universe and the future and the past and the world to come etc. How can you even understand what's going on? And we looked at the the pros and cons of that. Today I want to look at something which I think people might find a bit less comfortable, but you can't ignore it because it's all over our sources, so we have to try and work out what to make of it, which is the issue of suffering as a result of punishment. Um again, this is something that comes up again and again and we have to sort of look at how Hazal saw this and how we as modern-day people see this, especially after the Holocaust. So, that's what we're going to look at today. Punishment theodicies, how we understand them and also something which is, you know, rather in a highfalutin way called divine intimacy theodicies. Meaning, can we explain suffering as a way of bringing us much closer to God and God closer to us? And even if we can, are we going to turn around and say, "Thank you, but no thank you. I'm happy without the suffering. I'll take the distance. I'll try another way." And we'll see the Gemara discusses that and we'll leave that at the end of the sheer on a bit of a question. We have this idea of surin shell ahava. Sufferings of love. And the question is do we really believe in that? Does the Gemara ultimately accept that? Or does the Gemara say, "No, you know something, that's not a Jewish idea." The Rambam will say very clearly will say very clearly says, "Not a Jewish idea." The Gemara raises it, the Gemara rejects it. Others, not so clear, but we'll get to that towards the end cuz we have a lot to do. Let's start with number one, something very straightforward. The Homish presents reward and punishment very clearly. Maybe just before that, I'll just make make three quick introductory statements. Whenever you introduce a theodicy, a justification of suffering because of punishment, there are three things you always have to bear in mind. The what the sources we're bringing don't necessarily explain the suffering. They don't necessarily justify. All they do is they say, "This could be a way of understanding God's existence notwithstanding the question of the suffering that we're seeing in front of it." In that sense, it's a defense. It's not It's not a full-blown explanation. And it's important that we retain humility on that. We're not trying to explain suffering specifically. And we're also not trying to explain this suffering, this person. And we'll see it's absolutely immoral to ever project these ideas onto someone else. You're suffering because of All you can ever do is look at yourself. We'll see that. But it never explains specific suffering to specific people in a specific way. It's a much more general argument. And it never explains away the suffering. Oh, now that I've worked this out, oh, baruch Hashem, I understand God's plan and I can get on with my life. Who am I to interfere with God's eternal plan? Just like you don't, you know, greet a poor person who comes to your door collecting stalker and say, "Well, you know, buddy, God runs the world. You know, I got money, you don't have money. When God wants you to have money, then you'll have money. Who do you think runs the world? Not me." God forbid, you never say that. And therefore, even if you come up with a a theodicy to a way of understanding God's existence and and and suffering, it never absolves us of the responsibility to to cure the suffering, to involve us. And that's very, very important because it One of the things that people object to with this kind of argument is well, now that you realize why there's suffering, you're not going to do anything about it. And we mustn't ever do that, and we'll see sources on that, too. Okay, so let's start at a apparently very easy in a very easy way. Number one. By I'm sure this is what we say. We read this this morning in davening. If you listen to my commandments and that I am I am If you do these mitzvahs with love, you will my kosher after the holidays. I give you all the things. I give you money. I give you food. I give you plenty. I give you peace. But watch out. In case you turn your minds away, you go worship other gods. God will be angry with you. He will shut off the heavens. So, it's black and white, no? If we do the right thing, we get reward. And if we don't do the right thing, we get punishment. It sounds that way. And the mission does We'll see it's not quite that way at all. But the mission does seem to sometimes present very clear very clear nexus between if you do this, then good things will happen. If you do that, then bad. Look at this again challenging mission number two. We read it on Friday night. Three specific results in God forbid the death of women in childbirth. I am zero and not careful with family purity and lighting candles. You're You're to tell me that a woman didn't light candles, she deserves to die in childbirth? Of course not. God forbid. But the idea that there's a connection between the two seems to come out. Number three, Rebbe Meir. Rebbe Meir says, "Nikia bakala, you should always try and teach your children a good way to make an easy parnosa." I don't know if there's such a thing, but a clean and honest and it's all very well saying I want my son to be a doctor, I want my son to be a daughter to be a lawyer, but then they're going to work for 19 hours a day and never sleep and and and so it's not so straightforward. And you have to daven always to God she'ein umna she'ein ba aniyus v'ashirus because there's no profession in which people some people make it big and some people completely fail. Some people are successful, some people are are rich, some people are poor. She'lo aniyus minah umnas v'lo ashirus minah umnas it's the money you make is not dependent on the profession you choose ela hakol al pi s'char it's all depends on your merit. Your z'chus. Now, we'll see maybe at the end of the series that z'chus here might actually mean mazel. And mazel is going to really throw us off because after all of this talk about good behavior, bad behavior, we're then going to say, "Well, if you have a bad mazel, then what can you do?" So, we'll get there, but not yet. Just to flag it. And then Rebbe Shimon bar Elazar says, "You know something, I don't understand it. I can't make money. The birds seem to manage and the animals seem to manage. All of nature seems to manage to sustain itself, but I can't make a living. Why is that? Because of my sins. Because of my aveiros. I messed up and I'm being punished." Seems again fairly straightforward. Number four, the Mishnah says again here in Sotah, "B'mida sh'adam moded bah, modedin lo." Whatever you choose as the way to go in life, that's the way that God will lead you in life. And he brings from obviously the sotah the sotah did this for her lover and now this parallel thing happens to punish her etc. And he gives an example, Shimshon Shimshon halach Shimshon couldn't keep his eyes on the right things. He was looking at women, that was his bet noir. And therefore he couldn't and therefore they poked out his eyes. What more connection can you possibly have midah midah than that? Before you turn the page at the bottom number five, very important statement. Amar Amar Ami Ain mitah belo chet. There is no death without sin. Ain yisurin belo avon. And there's no affliction without bad behavior. It's absolutely goes one with the other. Ah, you might turn around and say, "Okay, so I won't do averos." And then I'll be okay. I've got news for you. You will do averos because we all do. Number six, ki adam ain tzadik ba'aretz asher ya'aseh tov velo yecheta. There's no such person that someone who never did anything wrong and therefore everyone will end up being punished, says Rashi. Number seven, ki adam ain tzadik ba'aretz asher lo yecheta. Therefore, you have to look to your actions. You have to try and be the best that you can. Um Number eight, this will be an important source. I'm doing this quickly because none of this is difficult so far. What we're going to see is the reaction against all of these sources. Amar Rabbah, Amar Imrei Adam she'isurin ba'im alav. If if you see in life that suffering comes and the Gemara elsewhere which I didn't bring you, says suffering could God forbid be very serious and very very challenging and painful. But it could even be a a small thing, could even be yisurin. The Gemara gives a few examples. When you put your hand in your pocket for your wallet and it's not there, that that panicky moment it's not there. Oh, it's in it's in my other pocket. Oh, wow, that's good. I I was with somebody yesterday, a colleague of mine, he lost his car keys. Oh my goodness, yisurin. And then he found his car keys, gan eden, you know. So, yisurin yisurin could be small things, they could be big things, but when they come, you first face with yourself, then look yourself to do chuva. She ain't nothing to say but that girl. When I show up to the sham Uh, we will we'll check our deeds as a we'll do chuva. Now, fish face below masa, what if you looked at your life and you couldn't find anything wrong? Hallelujah. You looked at your life, nothing. I can't see what I could possibly have done here. You can live a bit of Torah. For sure you didn't learn enough Torah. I can say everybody. Maybe that's more men than women. We're not getting into that now, but for sure it's Torah. She am I reading the positive that as well. The entire of a low masa, but if you look at yourself and you think no, no, no. I didn't do anything wrong and I learned Torah day and day and night. I didn't I can't find anything. Then be a dual she is sewing shall I have a hand. A very important source we're going to get get to later. You know, if you didn't do it you can't find anything wrong and it's not little Torah, then it's afflictions of love. God is punishing you and giving you suffering because he loves you. Now, we are going to have to ask a question. Is that like a real thing or is it What do you mean? You looked at your life and you couldn't find anything wrong and you don't think there's any little Torah? That's your imagination. Meaning there is something there and you're imagining there's nothing there and that's what you think is you sewing shall I have a or is this genuine? No, this person is perfect and that's why God's crushing them because we'll see if it's okay later that God afflicts those who he loves. What What What's going on? We'll see. Don't don't It's just the beginning of the show. Okay, fine. Even Sadiqim even the greatest Sadiqim do a virus number nine. Says Kwarum is shown B Bisyona who only shown Kapara who. Do we bury people because it's a Bisyona? It's a It's a disgrace if they're not buried. It's not covered how maze or because it gives them a Kapara that they get atonement through the barrier. So the Kamara says, wait a second, we buried Sadiqim. Why? So it must be because of Bisyona cuz why do they need a Kapara? No, even Sadiqim. Even the greatest tzadikim tzadikim also need tzadik la kapara tzrihi. Yes, in the same Adam ain tzadik ba'aretz asher ya'aseh tzadik v'lo yecheta. Okay, fine. Number 10. Again, I'm just lining these up and I could have given you many, many more. God never holds back the reward that is due to anybody. You'll get the reward and you'll get the punishment, God forbid. It's always going to be there. There's never going to be a break in that nexus. Number 11 is a famous Gemara. Why was the first temple destroyed? Because of these sins, murder, immorality, etc. Why was the second temple destroyed? Actually, let's read the source cuz it's important. Why was the first temple destroyed? There were three terrible things going on. Avodah Zarah, Gilui Arayos, Shfichus Damim. But on the second temple, they were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very pious. They were very So what so what possibly have gone wrong? No. The number one thing is even worse. Because it's just as bad as all of the other three that the first temple was destroyed. And probably even worse. Because the first exile was 70 years and this exile has been thousands. So in case you thought that the second temple was destroyed without sin, no. There was hatred. Sinat Chinam was one of the worst things you can imagine. But life doesn't seem to work that way. Bad people don't seem to get struck by lightning and good people don't seem to have good lives. So I brought here from an unusual source. He was an Italian commentator from the 18th century, 19th century. And he says as follows. Number 12. Sometimes God feels the right thing to do is to bring forward punishment. So what possibly have gone wrong? No. The number one thing is even worse. Because it's just as bad as all of the other three that the first temple was destroyed Sinat Chinam was one of the worst things you can imagine. Ah, but life doesn't seem to work that way. Bad people don't seem to get struck by lightning and good people don't seem to have good lives. So I brought here from an unusual source. Rabbi Yitzchak Reggio. He was an Italian Italian commentator from the 18th century, 19th century. And he says as follows. Number 12. God feels the right thing to do is to bring forward punishment. Or that's to someone who sinned. Or that I see as the total and that's always going to be good for them. But sometimes sometimes it's going to be a long time. And and you're not going to get the the the reward. And that's what we call the reward. Because the will get his reward in and you might not see it happening immediately but don't worry, it's all happening. We'll get to that in a minute. Hopefully not literally but we'll talk about it, okay? And other times it seems Sometimes bad people never get don't seem to get punished. Don't worry, it'll happen eventually. So and this is what is called Russia the total. This is a happiness dance of that. Okay, fine. I could have brought you another 15 sources. Maybe I already brought you too many. But if you wanted to find you know, evidence in our sources that punishment goes with sin and reward goes with they are many many of them. It becomes more difficult when you deal with something as traumatic and enormous as the Holocaust. How are you going to develop a punishment theology for that? Is it is it in any way acceptable to even discuss it that way? So I brought you a couple of sources and then I'll add one in. Number 14, let's start with Lichtenstein. Lichtenstein starts a conversation. There are many ways of having this conversation. Number 13, he says the Holocaust as a phenomenon raises many intractable questions. But the question which concerns us principally is the prophetic question which echoes throughout the generations. Why do the righteous suffer? The question of theology. And a number of possible approaches exist in tackling this problem. And one of them is the first one he gives. He says, let's just ask. Maybe there was something that went wrong. And it had to be fixed. A, not only is it not true that God ignored what was going on, but on the contrary, the Holocaust represents a fulfillment of his will. He goes through a lot of different options here. And the first one he gives is this one. We need to recognize this and confess that it was because of our sins. To see the Holocaust as a punishment and to answer the question of the suffering of the righteous with another question, why do we ignore our own behavior which preceded the Holocaust? If we are so concerned with the fulfillment of the prophecy of quotes women consuming their own offspring on quotes, why do we not conduct an equal level of soul searching when faced with the image of priest and prophet have been slain in God's sanctuary? Meaning, maybe we have to look to ourselves as a community, as a world Jewish community, maybe we did something that went terribly wrong and the Holocaust is a result of that. Now, I only bring you this because Rabbi Aaron Lichtenstein is the most sensitive, most empathetic, most thought-through Pope commentator that I could possibly think you could bring. And I brought it to show you that even he raises this question. He doesn't give an answer because answers are not what we're looking for, but he raises the question, what did we do wrong? And maybe we could do that right. And actually, the Aish Kodesh, who as you know lived through and died in the Holocaust, says the same thing. Number 14, "A Jew must believe and perceive that everything happens at the nod of God and that the Holy Blessed One does not execute judgment without justice, God forbid." This is fundamental. It is one of the 13 principles of the Jewish faith enumerated by Maimonides in his commentary on the Mishnah. I believe without a doubt that the creator, blessed is he, rewards those who observe his commandment and punishes those who violate them. Besides this, it is also a source of strength and joy in the times of suffering as written in the Tanya, "If a person while in pain acknowledges his sins, because everyone knows the blemishes of his own heart, and sees why this particular punishment was justly dealt with, he will not complain, God forbid. On the contrary, he will assume that just as God has punished him, so he will nurture him when he repents of his sins. And like a father reconciling with his son, God will comfort him. In these reflections, a a person may take courage and joy. So, even people who were close to who were directly involved in the Holocaust didn't just dismiss this. Painful as it is, almost offensive as it is to ask this question, he said, "No, we have to actually ask this question as well." But, I I brought another source which I didn't put on the sheet. Rabbi Eliezer Berkovits, and this is a segue to the next section, which is a turnaround from this. He says, "Not for a minute." And I'll read you this source. It's not It's from Faith After the Holocaust. He says, "Not for a single moment shall we entertain the idea that what happened to European Jewry was divine punishment for any sins committed by them. It was injustice, absolute. It was I think there's a phone going off somewhere. Oh, it just stopped. Baruch Hashem. It was injustice countenanced by God, but if we hold on to our faith in a personal God, such absolute injustice cannot be a mere mishap in the divine scheme of things. Somehow, there must be room for it in the scheme, in which case the ultimate responsibility for this ultimate evil must be God's. The idea that all of this has befallen us because of our sins is an utterly unwarranted exaggeration. "I'm not prepared to hear it," he says. "I'm not even prepared to discuss it. It's It's It's obscene to even ask that question." So, you see people I don't feel that I'm in a position to make any comment, but quoting from the people who lived through that era, some of them said, "Look, we have to take the question seriously." Another said, "No, we're not prepared to even discuss, even raise the question of a punishment theology when it comes to something like the Holocaust." And one of the reasons is the next group of sources we're going to see. Because it's all very well Rav Ammi saying there is no death without sin and there's no punishment without affliction, but the Gemara rejects that opinion. You can't just quote, which I did, that opinion and not reach the end of the Gemara. Look at source number 15. Source number 15 is a tricky four or five lines of Gemara, but let's look at it together. The Gamara has just said there is no Rav Ami has just said there's no punishment there's no sin uh punishment without sin. The Gamara questions. Maseh, number 15 he says as follows. Amru malachei hashareis lifnei Hakadosh Baruchu, the angels said to Hashem, Ribono shel Olam, me ma kanasta misah shel Adam Harishon? Why are you punishing Adam Harishon? Throwing him out of the Garden of Eden. So am aleihem, God says to them, listen. Mitzvah kalah she hayisah bi yadi, I gave him one tiny little mitzvah not to eat from the fruit. V'hu avar alav, and he messed it up straight away. Of course I threw him out of the garden. It's a it's a punishment. Amru lo, they said to him, v'halo Moshe v'Aharon shekiyemu es kol haTorah kulah umesu. What about Moses and Aaron, Moshe v'Aharon? They didn't mess up. Now you're going to say, well, maybe they did mess up, but this this Mishnah is saying, this braisa is saying they didn't mess up, and they died. What are you going to say about that, God? It's not a punishment. So God says to the angels, am aleihem, you know something? You're right. Mikreh echad latzadik ulerasha. Everybody dies. Because everyone has to die. And it's not because they're being punished, because Moshe and Aaron weren't punished, but they died because everybody has to die. It's part of the human condition. It was always meant to be that way, says this source. Very interesting. And it's not because of sin, it's because we're human beings. Ah, but Huda Amiki Haitana, so maybe Rav Ami, who who thinks that everyone is punished, and therefore death is a punishment and suffering is a punishment, maybe he holds like this. The Tana, Reb Shimon ben Elazar, Reb Shimon ben Elazar says, af Moshe v'Aharon becheit amesu. No, Moshe and Aaron did sin. And that's what we normally taught. Shenemar, yan lo he'emantem bi. God says, you didn't believe in me. Ah, he'emantem bi, if you had believed in me, ad on lo yigmar chein litol min ha'olam hazeh, you would you would have gone to Israel. So okay, good. So whose that opinion like, says the Gamara? Maseh. Arba meisu b'atzei shel nachash. There are four people that died with no sin whatsoever. The Elohim, hey, these are them. Binyamin ben Yaakov, Amram avi Moshe, Yishai avi David, the killer ben David, four people who never sinned and died. Okay? So, who is that opinion like? If you say that's going like the opinion of the original angels, which is why why why did you throw out Adam Harishon? I know because everyone has to die, then it can't be because they named Moshe and Aaron, but they didn't name all these other people. The Moshe and Aaron, they didn't give this other list of Binyamin and Amram, etc. It must be that all the opinions here, and you can go away and look at this later to see how it all hangs together. All the opinions must reject the idea that death is a product and suffering is a product of punishment. And therefore, we learn from this, there are people that die and do not deserve it. The suffering below and there is suffering which is not because of sin, which you have to derive from me. You have to Absolute rejection of Rav Ami. Rav Ami who started this whole Sugya with what we thought was a perfectly reasonable statement based on all the sources. Of course, if you sin, there'll be punishment. No, you have to derive from me. You have to. That's not how it works. And therefore, the Gemara seems here to conclude very clearly that we do not regard suffering as a consequence of punishment. I need to just go on because there's going to If we don't go on, I'll take your question at the end if I have a little bit of time, but we've got a lot to do. And actually, anyone who suggests that you're being You're suffering A person's suffering because of their sins is seen as being an outrageous person. And I brought you one of the speeches of Eliphaz from Iyov. I'm not going to read it through. You can read this in your own time. But if you read through the book of Iyov, you'll see that even though So, the comforters, if you like, of Job start off fairly uh politely and empathetically. If you look at the first speech of Eliphaz, he says to Iyov, uh "Okay, you know, you suffered terribly, but come on, you were always the one that kept everybody going. You were the one that gave everyone chizuk. If you can give everyone else chizuk, maybe you can give yourself chizuk." He sounds like a nice guy. If you get as you go through the speeches, read the speech later. It's terrible. He's basically laying into him, "You must be a sinner and you're wretched, and that's why it's happening." Who speaks like this? It's a terrible, terrible thing to say to someone. And if you look in source number 17, the very epitome of onaat devarim, of how not to speak to someone, how not to speak in an abusive and oppressive way, the very example of that is the way that Job's comforters spoke to him. When they said to him, "This happened because you sinned." It's the worst thing you can do. Number 17, says the Gemara. Tanu Rabbanan. Lo yisonu ish es anito. No one shall afflict or or or punish as not punish, but abuse, if you like, their friend. Now, there are areas of halacha which are onaat mamon, you overcharge people, they pay too much money, but this is not onaat mamon. But onaat devarim hakosev medabei, it's talking about speaking in an abusive way. Hakaitzar, how does this work? Im haya baal teshuvah, if there's a baal teshuvah in front of you, al yomar lo, don't say to them ever, "Ah, zeh chomer asher hayinu teshuvah." What you used to do before you became frum? That's terrible. You You remind them of that? And then he gives other examples which I didn't bring. If you're dealing with geirim, don't say to them, "Oh, now you're a holy schmoly? Yeah? Two years ago you were a non-Jew. You were eating doing whatever, you know?" You don't say that to people. You never say that to people. By the way, just in parentheses, one of the letters to the Rambam is uh is from Ovadia the Ger, where he says in the Jewish community, people scream at him and shout at him and say, "You're a guy. You used to be a over the vote of Zara." And they treat him badly and the Rambam goes ballistic and he says, "How can they speak that way? Because they can't abuse a guy." And not only are you you are never an over the vote of Zara because you used to be a Muslim. And that's monotheistic. But the people who are screaming at you, they're the ones that are over the vote of Zara because they're losing their patience and they're getting angry and they're abusing you in speech. So you can't speak to people like that. The in, says the source. In my you sort of about love if you see someone who's suffering. In my you by love if somebody is sick, God forbid. Or she had its been off. Or God forbid they buried their children. Someone who suffered an unspeakable tragedy. I don't know never say to them could Derek I'm above the ear off. Never speak to someone like that. So where are we? Is punishment a result of sin or not? Maybe not, but you certainly can never say it. You can certainly never raise it with anybody who's gone through a punishment. Maybe you can look at yourself and ask, "Can I see some connection between something that I did and something that happened to me?" Maybe and maybe you'll see a connection and maybe you won't and maybe you'll just put it down to bitter terror. I don't know. But you can't ever project that on other people and you do see this. The people say disgraceful things when it comes to suffering. And like we said last week, I quoted Rabbi Aaron Soloveichik. When when the secular people talk about this, they they spout heresy. And when religious people talk about this, they often spout stupidity. Remember that that's that that that quote from him. And even after October the 7th, I read things that just make your stomach turn about, "Oh, these people were punished because of this." And and these people were put I I saw I was on a WhatsApp group with a rabbi and somebody posted a picture a while ago of showing where all the missiles like were falling. And they showed like Bene Brak was no missile had ever fallen on Bnei Brak. He was like a big like you know cuz everyone of it I I just I couldn't quite believe that it had gone on there. He He didn't even think about it. Like he thought this was Oh, you see? You see? Well, what exactly do you see? People in Bnei Brak are so holy they never get hit by missiles? So, I I private messaged him and I said, "Please do me a favor and just take that down. It's just so offensive and I don't want to get into why because And to his credit, he says, "Well, I don't understand why." But he took it down. Which is which is nice. I didn't want to see something on the group or otherwise he's even worse and everyone's screaming at each other, you know, etc. But you can't speak that way. On the other hand, and there's almost another hand. So, this is like a five-handed uh you know, debate. Even if we turn around and say, "Well, you can't say that punishment is because of sin." Sins are sometimes more subtle than you think. Have a look at number 18. And we'll see an amazing Rav Soloveitchik in a minute. But Kol Zot Lo Chata Eiuv Bisvatav. The conclusion or the the the introduction I should say to Eiuv He never sinned with his mouth. He never actually said anything wrong. At least until he suffered. So, Amar Rabbah Bisvatav Lo Chata, But Beleibo Chata. There were subtle things he did wrong and they were more serious than he maybe thought. And I brought you number 19 where there's a beautiful Midrash. It's brought in actually in in Avot de Rabbi Natan. Says in number 19, K'she Ba Alav Avraham Avinu Al Pur'anut Gedolah, Amar Lifnei Hakadosh Baruch Hu, "When When Eiuv had this terrible suffering, he said, "Ribbono shel Olam Lo Heiti Ma'achil Re'eivim U'Mashkeh Tze'eivim? Did I not do Hachnasat Orchim? Did I not invite people in? Should I have married with a possuk? Etc. V'Lo Heiti Malbish Arumim? Did I not give Chesed to give money for people to have clothes?" And he gives another possuk. V'Af Al Pi Kein Amar Hakadosh Baruch Hu L'Eiuv, "Eiuv, God says to him, "No, no, no. Adayin Lo Higata L'Cheltzi Shel Avraham. You did all this Chesed, but you didn't reach half of what you could have done. Not like Avram. And he says, "Atayo sheva show you sit in your home waiting for collectors to come to give stock up. For Orchin and the people come to you to eat. And you you give people according to their level. If they're fancy people you give fancy food and very simple people you give simple food. You think that's chesed? That's not really what it's all about. You do chesed on your terms. You're not doing chesed for what other people really need. You think you're a tzaddik, but you're not a tzaddik as much as you think. And the Malbim in number 20 says, "How do you know who's a tzaddik?" Sometimes it's hard to know about yourself. How do you know? You assume you're a tzaddik. Today we're all bothered by the problem with tzaddik varalo cuz we all think that we're perfect. You know, in years gone by people were more bothered by rasha v'ra why why is this bad person having such a good life because it's usually easier objectively to see if someone's bad and even that you never really know. You back to Rav Dessler's bechira point. You could have somebody who was brought up in a terrible environment in gangland and his parents were murderers and drug dealers and one day he says, "Instead of instead of hitting this person on the head and killing them and stealing their money, I'll just push them on the side of the road and steal their money. And why why should I hit them if I don't need to?" And you see this and you think, "This is a disgraceful thing." And actually for this person, what an unbelievable mitzvah they did. So it's very hard to know. Look what the Malbim says. Shemit and who done it mission with tzaddikim karab. We judge people on what we can see. She we see them with our eyes we with our ears we hear them with our ears. She we see them looking doing good not doing bad. And we done it we think that he's careful about it and he's a tzaddik. Oh, then tzaddik missing so he says tzaddik missing from the front. We think that he's a tzaddik. But someone can look like a tzaddik on the outside, but you don't know what's going on behind closed doors. You don't know what they're really doing. You don't know what they're really capable of doing. And he goes through the whole source and says we really just don't know who's a tzaddik and who's not a tzaddik, which I think there's a lot of truth to that. And certainly, you know, judging on appearances is the worst possible thing you can do. You know, you can't tell who's a tzaddik by what they dress like. Obviously, we we all know that very well. And therefore Iyov was more There was more subtle problems there than you necessarily think. He He didn't deserve to be spoken to the way he was, but but who was he and what did he actually do? So, I brought you in 21. There's almost nobody in the whole of Tanakh that we have as much debates about who they were, where they lived, when they lived, if they lived, as Iyov. Nobody really knows. Number 21. Moshe got the sefer of Parshas Bilam and Iyov. So, it says originally in the Gemara here Moshe wrote the book of Iyov. Okay, that's nice. Messiah later Rebbe Levi bar Lachma cuz that supports the view that says that Amora Rebbe bar Lachma Iyov be made Moshe higher. Iyov was a man that lived at the time of Moshe. The Aima be made Yitzchak. Or maybe he was someone that lived at the time of Yitzchak. And I've missed out all the proofs that brings. The Aima be made Yaakov. Maybe he lived at the time of Yaakov. The Aima be made Yosef. Maybe he lived at the time of Yosef. And then Rava says Iyov be made Meraglim higher. He was at the time of the sin of the spies. And then Yosef bar Abba came later of Shmuel bar Nachmani. Someone went to Rav Shmuel bar Nachmani's share. When be Yosef bar Abba came later Iyov lo haya v'lo nivra ela mashal haya. There was no such person as Iyov. The whole book is a mashal. And the Rambam follows that opinion about tzaddik v'ra lo. And the Rebbe Yochanan and Rebbe Eliezer bar Abba said Iyov be made oleh goleh haya. He was one of the He was one of that came back from the Galut in Babel. Maybe he lived in the Maybe he lived in the time of And then the next one, maybe he lived in the time of Maybe even maybe like the Queen of Sheba. I mean, nobody knows. I don't think you could find any debate like this. What What are they trying to tell us? So, have a look at you can read most of it for yourself, but I think it's it's it's an absolutely beautiful piece. It's in I've already put you in source number 22. He picks up on this idea that there are so many opinions about where he lived and when he lived. Have a look at look at this with me. However, in two respects is saying as it was God saying to you, "You were lacking in the great attribute of loving kindness." And he's getting this from I was there like we said. You never assumed your proper share of the burdens of community responsibility. You never joined in the community's pain. Nor did you ever properly empathize with the agonies of the individual sufferer. As a kind, good-hearted person, you took momentary pity on the orphan. You were wealthy. You could afford to give substantial charitable contributions without straining your financial resources. However, over to page five means more than a passing sentiment, a superficial feeling. It has to demands more than a momentary tear or a cold coin. It has to means to merge with the other person, to identify with his pain, to feel responsible for his fate. And this attribute of you lacked in your relationships with the community, with the individual. And now he goes through all the different opinions. You were a contemporary of Jacob who struggled with with Esau, with the man at the ford of the Yabbok. Did you seek to help him and offer him your counsel and wisdom? Who was Jacob? A poor shepherd. And you? A wealthy and influential man. Had you accorded Jacob a proper measure of sympathy and caring, had you treated him with With attribute of steadfast loving kindness, he wouldn't have had to endure so much suffering. And then he goes through each one. You were there during the time of Moses. Where were you when? And you were active during the generation of Ezra and Nehemiah. You with your wealth and influence could have significantly accelerated the process of Yeshuv Haaretz, of settling the land. You were only concerned about yourself. You gave Hesed on your terms. And it's a beautiful piece of R' Soloveitchik. He picks up on each of those opinions and says to Iyov, "So, where were you when they needed you?" If you look at Iyov, he's a tzaddik, but he's with his own family. He's He's very into his own teshuvah, and teshuvah for his own children. But, you know, where is he for the whole klal? Is he there for the klal? And R' Soloveitchik says at the end of the book of Iyov, he is there for the klal. And that was his message. So, was Iyov punished justly? Yes, says R' Soloveitchik, cuz his sin was much deeper. And therefore, sometimes when it comes to aveira, um things are are more subtle, and we need to look We need We need to look harder. I once I must tell you a story. I once went to somebody's house in Manhattan. And uh you know, I I speak a lot around the place, and people put me with families for hospitality. And this fellow was unbelievable at Hachnasat Orchim. He had a bunch of people, you know, at his table. And And I'd never seen anything like it. He was so amazing. And at the end, I stayed behind a little bit when everyone left, and I said to him, "Look, you know, we don't know each other, but I just want to tell you I I've seen Hachnasat Orchim, and I've done Hachnasat Orchim, but I've never seen anything as amazing as this. This is like beyond." So, he said, "Come, I want to show you something." So, he He said, "Crouch down here and look with me underneath the table." Okay, that's a bit strange already. I think I I don't get that. So, I I you know, why not? You know, we So, I look underneath the table, and he underneath the table, he has one of these long, big Manhattan homes and a big, long table seats about 20 people. In the middle leaf of the table is written underneath, he says, "I wrote this. I instruct my children to use this leaf of my dining room table for the lid of my coffin." And he says, "This is what I'm taking with me. When I'm laying there looking up, this is what I'll be looking at." A little bit morbid, maybe. Okay? But and and actually I found elsewhere that this is brought down as a as as a minoc. But I'm just saying, he didn't just do chesed, he said, "I'm going to really invest in this." And this is what you have never did. He never did it to that degree. Okay? So, on the one hand, yes, sin is a is a cause of punishment. On the other hand, it's outrageous to suggest that. It's not. On the other hand, maybe things are more subtle than we think and it's not as simple as we originally thought. Now, there are two other ways of looking at this. One of them is we're off on the wrong track. When it talks about reward and punishment, it's not in this world. Why are you trying to find connections? It's in the next world. We'll see Russell O'Veitchik is very unhappy with this answer. Very unhappy. But look at number 23. I'm a Rabbi Elazar bar Rabbi Zadok. L'mat sadikim nimshalim b'olam hazeh. What are sadikim like in the world that we live in here? He says, "I'll tell you what they're like. L'eilam shekulo omed b'makom taharah, like a tree that's that that's trunk is in a in a pure place, v'nofav notezim l'makom tum'ah, and it's there are a few branches that overhang an impure place. Notsatz nofav, when you cut off the branches, kulo omed b'makom taharah, then it's all completely in a pure place. Kacha Kodesh Baruch Hu mevi yisurim al tzadikim b'olam hazeh, so too God brings punishments, sufferings, not punishments, sufferings on tzadikim, on people who are not deserving of them, b'olam hazeh, k'dei sheyirshu olam haba, because there are the few things that they did wrong, and he's going to pay them off for that in this world. So, in the Olam Haba, they get everything in a pure way. And he brings a possuk for that, too. The lama rashaim lama rashaim doing, and what are the wicked like but Olam Haze in this world? Le ilan shekula im b'makom tuma, like a tree which is rooted in a really impure place. V'naftu netzav l'makom tahara, and its and its branches overhang a pure place. Notzatz nafra, if its if its branches those branches are cut off, kulam oylim l'makom tuma, it's all in a makom tuma. V'kacha kodesh Baruch Hu mashpia aleihem l'tova u'rashaiv b'Olam Haze. So, too, the few good things that the rasha did are paid off to them as a benefit in this world, k'dei so they can go to the lowest hell in the next world and not have to be paid off for that. And therefore, very clearly, the Gemara is here saying in Kiddushin that whenever we talk about reward and punishment, we're talking about Olam Haba. In this world, all you're going to get is just the tzaddik is going to get punished for the few bad things they did, and the rasha is going to be rewarded for the few good things they did, but it's all really happening in Olam Haba. By the way, the Ramban in his disputations with the Christians used this and spun this. He was a a very good at what we call today spin. If you read his disputations, which he he wrote up, it's actually very interesting cuz the king in Spain when he went dis- in his disputation with Pablo Christiani, uh the king said he could say whatever he liked, which was a very big thing. And so, he really said it how it was. And at the end, of course, he had to lose because that's the It's like being in the International Court of Justice. And you know, you have you know before you even start that you have to Jews have to lose. But he the king said, "I never heard anyone lose so so well, you know, as you had to lose." But then the Ramban decided to write the whole thing up as a book and publish it. And the king said, "I I said you could say what you like. I didn't say you could write what you like." And then he got thrown out. He was thrown out of the country. But one thing that the Ramban did is the Christians threw at him the following. He said, "If God loves the Jews, why are you in such miserable poverty, but we, the Christians, are at the top of the world?" So, the Ramban smiled and said, "I've got a Gemara just for you, because the people who benefit in this world are only getting paid off because they're going to hell in the lowest possible way in the next world. But the people who live in poverty and suffering in this world are the people who are getting rewarded in the next world." I'm not sure how impressed they were with that, but but it was it was a good thing. You have to think on your feet on these disputations. But look at number 24. The Gemara against S'char Mitzvah Ba'Ha'olam Ha'Ba, there is no reward in this world. And it brings the famous case of the uh of it was Rabbi Yaakov who saw uh a father going to tell his son to do do Kibud Av Va'Em and climb up a a tower to bring to shoo away the mother bird and bring down the eggs. And both of those mitzvahs are mitzvahs to which the Torah promises you good and long life. And the boy climbs up, obeying the parent, falls off, dies. So, where's the good? Where's the long life? Clearly, it must be in the world to come. And the Gemara says, "Maybe that never happened." No, it did happen, he saw it. And by the way, of course, the Gemara goes on to talk about Acher, Elisha ben Avuya, Avuya, who went off the derech because of this in a in a very, you know, big way. I'm not getting into that now. But the Gemara says, "Everybody knows that the tzaddikim suffer in this world. It's obviously all about the next world. It can't be about this world." And this is the position that you see in Rav Saadia Gaon. I'm not going to read 25 inside, but you can read it for yourself. In the Rambam, let's look at number 27. B'Yishmael Adam Echad O Anshei Medina Chaitim in Hilchos Teshuvah, when people or a whole country do bad things, Ba'Yisrael Chotzei Cheit, She'Osim B'Da'at O B'Ratzon, they do it on purpose and willingly, they're not doing it by mistake. Kemosha Hadana Ra'u Yeli Parami Mana, they deserve a punishment. Va'akodesh Baruchu Hu Yude'a Eikhli Ipara. He knows how this person needs to be punished. Yesh Khet She'adini Shnei Pramim Ela Al Ketz Ba'olam Hazeh Begufa Uvemona. There are things that sometimes has to happen to people in this world. We'll see in a minute what that means. Veyesh Khet She'adini Shnei Pramim Ela Al Olam Haba. But there are other things where really the the main punishment is in the next world. Ve'ein Lo Ela Shumnesik Ba'olam Hazeh. And there's no there's no touch Do you don't get touched in this world. Veyesh Khet She'adini Shnei Pramim Ba'olam Hazeh Uve'olam Haba. So is that Is that punishment in this world or isn't there? The Gemara just said there isn't. But then the Rambam said, "Well, God knows what to do best. Sometimes there is in this world, sometimes it's only in the next world, sometimes it's in both worlds." So this long piece in 28, which I'm not going to read through right now, but it's it's it's it's all in Hilkhot Teshuvah, very important stuff to read, is well worth it. And the Rambam there basically says, "I'll tell you what it means in the Shema that we sa- started with when it says, 'If you do mitzvot, I'll give you rain, I'll give you food, I'll give you peace. And if you do aveirot, I'll give you war, I'll give you famine, etc.'" So the Rambam says, "That's not reward and punishment. The only reward and punishment is in the next world," he says. So what's the Shema talking about? He says, "It's very simple. If you Let's give a mashal. If you give a cell phone as a gift to a 5-year-old kid, which I don't recommend, okay? And you know, you see the next day they've kind of flushed it down the toilet or something. And you say, "Well, what did you do?" "Oh, I dropped it." "Well, obviously you're not old enough to have this phone. I'll wait till you know how to deal with it properly, and then you can have what I give you." And you take it away from them. So so too, says the Rambam, this world is not about reward and punishment, it's about opportunity. Are we able to use this world? He has a whole lengthy analysis for what it's meant to be used for. This world is meant to be used in order to connect to God. If God sees us using the world for what it was meant to be used for, so he gives us more because you're obviously you obviously know what to do with it. I give you extra. You can do better with it. But if he sees that we're just abusing the world, messing it up, using it for our own purposes and not in order to connect with God, so he says, "Well, why would I give it to you? All you're doing is making it worse. You're just making yourself You're just causing yourself problems. I'm going to take it away. I'm not giving you more opportunity to do things even worse than you're doing. It's not punishment. It's consequence. It's consequence. So, it's like they say to the kid, "It's not that you're a bad kid. You just did a bad thing." Yeah? So, God's saying, "I'm not punishing you. I'm just not going to give you the you know, the rope to hang yourself with." But really punishment, reward and punishment is only, says the Rambam, in the next world. And actually, that's Rashi's position as well. I brought you in 29 uh on the pasuk in Ha'azinu coming up soon. Had sur tam in par law that God is all just kol darkhav mishpat El emunah ein avel tzadik v'yashar hu. And so I Rashi says there, "You are the one who will give the tzadikim olam haba and just punish them whatever they need a little bit to take away in olam hazeh." And so too with the resha'im like we have seen. And actually, the the Ramban uh says, "And actually, that's what he thinks it means in the Gemara when it says yissurin shel ahavah." And this is important to get clear cuz everyone disagrees on what yissurin shel ahavah means. The Ramban says, "I think it actually means what we just described. When God does things which feel bad to people in this world, but really he's doing it so they can get a proper payoff in the next world. It's not a punishment. It's yissurin shel ahavah. It is there are consequences. It is because they sinned," he says, "but they sinned in a very minor way. They're not a bad person, but they have to get that payment, if you like, in this world. That's his Shirin Shel Ahava in his book. And you can read yourself. He says, "That's how the tzaddikim are, if you like, {quotes and quotes} punished in this world for the things that they did, minor things they did wrong." That's his Shirin Shel Ahava. Rav Soloveitchik says, "I don't like this one little bit." And I can see from your face, you already some of you don't like this, either. And and he speaks very very harshly about it. Look in number 31. "I believe," he says, "in the halakhic approach to suffering here, in the lecture in 61, I believe that this is a very clear-cut, unequivocal example of how the thematic halakha has handled evil. It is a radical approach, of course, simply disposing of it. If sometimes if a problem is too embarrassing and too tormenting, one simply puts it in the wastebasket and ignores it. Kick it up to next the next world, and we're all happy." On the one hand, we know that this metaphysics has worked miracles with our people whose history is a continuous tale of martyrdom and suffering. The Jewish community found in this metaphysics of evil relief, hope, and courage. Yet, what seemed apodictic, meaning absolutely clear and simple to our ancestors, inspired by indomitable faith and a passionate transcendental experience, might prove to be extremely complicated matter for contemporary egoistic man, who is spiritually uprooted uprooted, homeless, perplexed. I can state with all candor that I personally have not been too successful in my attempts to spell out this metaphysics in terms meaningful to the distraught individual who floats aimlessly in an all-encompassing blackness like a withered leaf on a dark autumnal night tossed by the wind and rain. I tried, but failed, I think, miserably, like the friends of Job." Interesting. He's very honest. He says that when you tell people the reason you're suffering in this world or the reason people suffer in this world is because you're really a tzaddik and you're going to get paid in the next world and you're just being, you know, having the branches chopped off so that you have a pure place in Olam Haba. That doesn't speak. That doesn't speak to us. He doesn't Maybe it's our generation. He said, "I've tried. I failed. People just don't get this at all." There is another approach, which albeit sounds a little bit on the Christian side, but it could be, he says, that the tzaddikim suffer for the sins of the generation. Okay. So, that's very interesting. And actually, I brought you one source from Derech Hashem that basically says that, but there are others as well. I brought There's a Gemara I didn't bring you on the sheet, but I'll quote it to you now. Gemara in Shabbos the amar of Gurion v'itemar of Yosef bar Rebbi Shmaya. B'zman she had tzaddikim b'dor, when there are tzaddikim in your generation, tzaddikim nitpasim al hador, they get caught for the sins of the generation and they suffer and they die for the sins of the generation. And the And the Derech Hashem brings this down as well, which is interesting. Again, it was that It's a Gemara. Was that influenced in any way by anything else? It's a good question, which is not for now. You don't see many sources like that, but it is an idea as well. So, at Can, we've got seven or eight minutes left. At Can, we've dealt with punishment as an idea and we've basically said there seems to be a lot of connection between sin and punishment. No death without sin, no affliction without, you know, aveira. And yet, that's rejected by the Gemara. And yet, sin can be more subtle like Iyov and Rav Soloveitchik saying you were a big baal chesed, but are you really the tzaddik that you think you are? And then there's ideas that maybe it's not about punishment at all, it's about Olam Haba or maybe even the tzaddikim are dying and suffering for the generation. Let's look at a couple of last things. Is there ever an idea that someone can be can suffer but not because of anything they did wrong, but because God wants to be close to them in their suffering. Or is that obscene almost as a suggestion? And I just wanted to I'm trying not to, you know, pull any punches here. I'm trying to give you a full range of what's going on here. So, let's have a look at source number 33. And then we'll see some interesting sources just to finish off in the last 5 minutes. So, we saw the source in 33, uh which is the if if suffering comes to you, then check your deeds, and if you can't find anything, then it's bittle Torah, and if you can't find bittle Torah, then it must be yissurim shel ahava. And it continues as follows. Uh second line, uh yeah, amorav amorav schora, amorav chuna, kol she hakadosh baruchu who chafetz ba, anyone that God really loves, medakem be yissurim, he crushes them with suffering. She nemar, "Hashem chafetz dako ha chailo." God loves, he crushes with illness. What's going on here? Where is it? Where's what? Uh source 33, at the very end of 33, that's up there. And actually, we may even find that with Iyov. Iyov says at the end of this whole experience, you know something? I actually got closer to God from it. Look at what Iyov says, very interesting statement. He says as follows. L'shema ozin shemati'cha, I used to hear you with my ear, the ata, but now aimi ra'acha, I can see you with my eyes. I feel I've got closer to God, that God has punished me, God has not punished me with nothing, there's no punishment here. Rashi said yissurim shel ahava, there's no hint of a sin that the tzaddik did, but there's nevertheless a if you like this crushing almost kind of divine hug that God gave this person. I know it brought you two English sources here that makes express this. Number 35, some suffering can constitute a religious experience is a non-Jewish source and a path to knowledge of God to intimacy with the divine. According to this divine intimacy theodicy, God sometimes permits personal suffering in order to provide occasions in which we can perceive God, understand him to some degree, know him, and even meet him directly. And then in 36, some religious people report that suffering instead of being contrary to the love of God is actually a medium in and through which his love can be experienced. Now, that's actually very interesting because how does how are we going to stop people becoming masochists? You know, I want to suffer and the more I suffer, the more the closer I'm going to be to God. It's actually could be very problematic. And we even see the other way around. God tells us if you're suffering, I'm closer to you because I'm suffering. And this is where we get into very interesting theological debates. Look at number 37. I'm going to cut this part out for a moment. Can't you tell I'm suffering just like you're suffering. Where am I speaking to you from? Where am I meeting you? In the thorn bush. I'm caught up, says God, in the thorns. The idea of thorns, by the way, of course was taken up by the Christians as well in the whole crucifixion story got it straight out of the Midrash, straight out of the idea of God suffering. And so too I brought in 38 that God suffers with the individual as well. A very challenging topic and actually on the on the pages of Tradition Journal there was a big debate in the '60s between Rabbi Ephraim Joshua Heschel who said that there's this concept of what he called divine pathos. That God is really suffering on some level, whatever that means. And Rabbi Yisrael Berkovits, who rejects that completely as a Christian theology. And he get very unhappy. And you can read that. I can send you a link. Maybe I already put put it on there. That that back and forth in the '60s between two giant Jewish thinkers. On the one hand, Rabbi Heschel, on the other hand, Rabbi Berkovits. Where Heschel was saying that, you know, God's suffering with us. And Berkovits was saying that's just Christian theology and you're just been reading too too much from the Christian text. And that's not a Jewish idea. And actually recently Rabbi Dr. Berman wrote an article saying, "Why was Rabbi Berkovits so hard on Rabbi Heschel here? There's plenty sources for this. There are plenty of sources." So, what do we what do we have to say about this idea of Yissurim shel Ahava? Do we believe in it? Do we not believe in it? So, let's finish with one little thing. 39. Source number 39. So, here's two rabbis who seem to believe in Yissurim shel Ahava. So, source 39. Pleiku Rabbi Yaakov, Rabbi Idi, Rabbi Akiva bar Chanina. Chad amar Elohim Yissurim shel Ahava. What what is this this this affliction from love? Kasha ein bahem bittul Torah. As long as you're not losing out on Torah. You know it could be cuz if you're losing Torah, it must be because you are being punished. V'chad amar Elohim Yissurim shel Ahava kasha ein bahem bittul tefillah. If you if you can't daven anymore, then you know it's not Yissurim shel Ahava. Says no. Amar Elohim Rabbi Abba bar Chiya bar Abba. No, hachi amar Rabbi Chiya bar Abba. My dad used to say this. Amar Rabbi Yochanan in the name of Rabbi Yochanan. Eilu v'eilu Yissurim shel Ahava. There are lots of people who have Yissurim shel Ahava. Even if they can't daven. Even if they can't learn. V'amar Rabbi Yochanan cuz Rabbi Yochanan said, "Dein garma d'siyarei veih." This is a bone from my 10th child. He used to carry with him, maybe a tooth. He buried nebach 10 children. Rabbi Yochanan. And Rashi says that that could only be Yissurim shel Ahava. He could never have done anything bad enough to be punished that he God forbid buried 10 children. And he used to comfort people and say to people, "Look, you're suffering terribly. I just want to show you this. This is a a tooth from Nebuchad 10th child that I buried. And therefore, it seems that these people, these two rabbis, and believe in this believe in this idea. But not so fast. Not so fast. Because if you will finish with 42, go over the page. Rashi says it must be had and that's and that we believe in it is a real thing. But number 42, it's so ironic. These same two rabbis that he quotes as being the, you know, believers in Rabbi he had this terrible suffering presumably was static he was number 42 one day became very sick. I mean Rabbi went to visit him. He's the same two rabbis. He said to him, Are you doing it? Is it doing it for you? You believe in so does with a poem with a tooth from his child. I'm going to say he said to him, No, I don't want it. I can't do it. Just take it away. I'm going to say he said to him, "Okay, give me your hand." He helps him off the chair. So much for over. We can't deal with it. We can't cope with it. And then irony of ironies, later Rabbi Rabbi himself got very sick. I went to visit him and he said to him, "How do you feel now?"