The Theophany at Sinai | Rabbi Neil Winkler May 29th 2025

is taken from the Greek word theo means uh not god but the religious theophony divine let's say the theophony was a divine experience let's say uh at harsai so called theophony and like I said it's primarily so that people could be um confused about what that is and open up and listen hear what he Um Mhami, it is after all just a few days before Shauvo. It is fitting that in the um and the the holiday on which we mark the anniversary of the giving or of the asser or the pronouncement of the asser that we should um get into a little more details about the jiro which is what my plan is here. Oh, this is even better. And as I often tell you, the whole point of um all of these sorry of all of these lectures is to open up ideas and thoughts that we didn't know before that we thought we knew and that the text sometimes says it a little differently than what we thought it was. And um here it is. I need it to be higher. Excuse me. And therefore, come on. There's another one. Oh, that's why. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was going to do that next. Oh, pleasure there. And for that reason um this uh class this sh is going to address exactly that. What do we know about the ass and what do we think we knew about the assro? Hopefully certain ideas will come to um realization uh and maybe we'll learn a little something a little different than we had known before. All right. Um first of all I am going to announce that which was mentioned in the other classes. Um the sum this day today were sponsored by Estelle Harris. Um I don't um a member of her husband um Richard Mark Harris that's a fellow mayor Ben Hirs um a loving father and grandfather I don't know how many people today could say more than that but I knew these book I know um very well as as um Estelle and I knew her husband uh in the beginning of my um rabinet I after our first year in uh in Cincinnati 1972. So in 1973 I moved to uh Trenton, New Jersey and there one of the people there actually um uh Estelle's father was a uh head of the board was of the SH and um Phillips and SHs and I do therefore knew Estelle and her husband and so I feel honored to be able to say something and to at least tell her that uh that we are uh basically um getting the the honor of being able to fill a a Shia now uh in memory of the of the uh Estelle's husband uh Rafael mayor Ben Sih who as I said I did know I'm not going to begin by reading to you the asser had brought because uh you're somewhat uh knowledgeable of them the ten commandments we call them and uh it's very well known to both both um Jew and non-Jew those who know the Bible at all as they call it and um I'm going to begin by simply understanding the ABC of this the ten commandments So let's understand it. Um first I'm going to address the fact that the de are found not once but twice in the Torah. It's found in parro which is what we're going to be reading. please God on Shàuote on Monday and um also in found also inan um and uh the a part of the history of Israel's journey through the midbar until they and um there's a difference between the two of them and um we would eventually get through those differences sometimes they're very very minor. Um if it says uh for example in the U inro it says or and and it says not big big differences. um uh shamat also differences but when it comes to for example why we observe Shabbat there were tremendous differences between the two why and why there are differences is something we will get to I don't think we're going to do it completely but I think just as an over uh you know looking over the whole thing an overview if I say of too. The difference is you should be under you should know that these two these two versions of the boat are not two ten commandments. Sometimes we see before shim trying to well why did he change that? Well what did it really say and so on and so forth. Um the um idea that devarim in which we find a second version of the was after all uh a a a retelling of the Torah of what had gone happen and um therefore we get into trouble if he if it's merely retelling why does it retell it differently? Um, but that's a misconception. That's simply not what Dvar is about. And quickly I'm going to go through this because it ties into understanding the brought and why there's two of them. That is just the first part of what I want to say. Uh, and and that is to understand what is not a Mishnet Torah, which means a repetition of the Torah. That's not what it means. Um, it's not a repetition of the Torah because the Torah has five books. It has a book of Beresit. What part of Beresit in the story of Abra and Yakov and Yoseph and what's how much of that is repeated in? And you're right. None. None. Or we can go into um Okay, good. There you have the ser the slavery of Egypt, the enslavement of the Israel, uh the birth of Moshe, what happened to Moshe, Moshe in uh in with Yitro when he had to run away, what he did, all of the 10 plagues, uh the splitting of the sea, and guess what? None of them is found in Sephar. So as a book that was supposedly a retelling of the Torah, that's not true. All of Gray is not there. A good bulk, the majority of Shimote is not there. Yes, it does recall the mentions at least the sin of the which we still we uh studied last week and it does include the the broad but the story of Yeo is not even mentioned here though in Peragal it's it's sort of hinted to although we don't know which which uh story whether it is the establishment of the elders or or of the judges which is the time of it uh but it's not mentioned not his name at all of the whole last part except for the um parad Duma, the last part of Schmote, which is all about the building of the Mishkan, all of the tales about it and everything of in Truman Tit and parts of Kitisa in all of Pakud is not found in. So, so far Besid is missing almost all of except the two stories is missing. Ah so vayukra undoubtedly will you know be put in this this repetition of the Torah and all the laws. Now the stories of tuma and tahara the whole concept of um purity and defilement um all the sacrifice rituals what has to be cleansed where they are uh where where it has to be slaughtered and where their blood has to be all of that stuff is in vikra it's not invar don't find that invarim um the story of yale that we just read uh last week in uh in uh this in Bahar that that is the jubilee year not mentioned not mentioned inim and even the concept of theatical year is not mentioned in invarim it's mentioned as where where and for the first time and only time where all debts are also um during the seventh year but the idea of not work in the field which we always speak about when it comes to schmita is not found in okay so now we got nothing that's embraced there's very little that's in um the story is in almost nothing that is but in that's that is inra so finally comes to bidbar great so we'll talk about that good so midbar begins and you'll find all the census all of the countings of the of the people of and of of le that's a whole safer uh I'm sorry para of midbar then nasau comes tells us what the had to do what they did in the mishkan and that come that uh that's not there at all either uh comes to bahala the entire uh para ofk is not mentioned in mid doesn't mention at all the sins that we go through there and so on so forth first time we have anything about safe that we learn in and we read in safe midbar is the story of the spies and we'll get to that too another time. So that is mentioned in Dvarim. Um and um so okay then we go to the story of Korak not there the story of of Balac um not there the the the ina all of the additional sacrifices the musaf not there. So this whole concept that oh Misha Torah yeah they're reviewing the Torah that's not true. Hardly anything about the Torah is reviewed. The idea of the concept of Mishnet Torah was uh Moshe teaching some new or some actually repeated laws that were taught. And sometimes there were laws that were taught over the 40 years. But here in the 40th year, Moshe writes it down and reminds them. We think it's the first time we're reading it. Not true. Moshe had been teaching it the whole time. It wasn't written down in this part, but he he makes sure to write it down in so therefore it's o it's going over the laws before what? Before they enter Israel and who's not going to be there. And who wasn't there when they got the to the Torah? And that's wrote the bulk of the people. They all died out. This is the 40th year. When you understand that historical thing that the bulk of the population that was there were not around, not only in the debt, but in Egypt. They didn't know about all of the they heard about them. You know, papa told me about this, but they weren't there. So it's understandable that what Mosha was going to do is remind them of the things that did happen but not the details that we already had but those things that are going to impact the mitzvah that they have to review and have to follow. Okay. Understanding this you understand now also that the we had that we said oh it's the second version. It's not the second version. Mosher Raenu wasn't planning to tell you this is what was said. Not true. Um because it was never meant to be an exact duplication of what was written in para. In fact, whereas in it says that Moshe spoke God spoke these words. He spoke these words. But inan it says and God [Applause] spoke something like these notes. It wasn't meant to be exactly the same thing and it wasn't. So just like the stories in were not meant to be duplicates of the ones in the earlier books and most of them are not even included. The only reason that there's is not because to repeat them but to as I just said remind the people who are never there. This is what God said. I know your parents told you I was there said Moshe. I'll tell you exactly what he said. I was up in the mountain. I heard God's voice. And most crucially and most people don't understand this. It's so important. Mosher Raenu was telling them the mitzvot. That's what Dvar was about. And that is precisely the purpose of safer duvarim. Moshe reviewing the mitzvah that he had already been teaching there years. And one would imagine that some of among the 2 million people, 3 million people and Jews have a habit of having maybe one or two who may speak out when they shouldn't. I know I've taught for 50 years, believe me. Who is going to say if not openly imagine to himself So if God taught us all of these mitzvah, Moshe, why are you telling us? Moshe, why are you telling us? Why doesn't God and why didn't he at Hari get up there and say, "Okay, number 345 mitzvah is this 610. This is the mitzvah." Why is it that he get 10 pronouncements, right? And nothing else. Why? not to speak. Excellent. Very good. And where do we find that? that we find that inb but we find that in this story the story that's told here in I should there is not told in detail in because here we see in the inan exactly what was said and that is um don't have He said the people came to him after they had they heard the sound of God. They were very fright. Was that after the first two first two dibro as uh Kazal saying or as the text seems to do it all 10 either way when they heard that they were frightened and they trembled and they said we don't want to hear this. They said he said why should we have to die by sitting there and by standing here and listening to God's voice. Please Moshe, you go up to God and you listen to him whatever God tells us tells you and you can then tell us what God has taught you everything he said and we'll listen to whatever you say and we'll do it. That's easy. That was the point and that's exactly what why Moshe has anything about the brought in in it wasn't because he wanted to tell this is one this is two but because at hari at that you didn't want to hear God's love God's plan was to give you the mitzvah there certainly all 10 of them uh but probably all of You didn't you you could not stand in that in not in a negative way but rather in a real way you could not be able to listen to God and you said please and what did you say Moshe you teach us so that's why before he starts teaching them the mitzvah in all of he now explains to them in are going to say, "Hey, what happened to God? How come you're taking over?" He's saying, "I" he would have, but you you asked me. It was your request of for me and of God that he not that he not speak and that I listen to him and I would speak to you and teach you. So, the reason that I'm teaching you these mitzvot and God doesn't come and do so, is not because of me. It's because of you. you wanted that. So now he said that he now can go on and you'll see goes on to start tell what the mitzvah are. But that was an introduction to and now you understand far better. The whole thing wasn't to retell stories. He wanted to explain to them why it is that he now had to give mitzvah. He had to review them those he had been teaching them. And in case they say, "How come God didn't teach us? Maybe you're just making it up." He said, "Because you didn't want to hear and you asked me to do it." It's a phenomenally important thing in understanding all of but also in realizing that Israel whether consciously or not started the concept of teacher and student of having to pass down down what we would call the msora from one generation to the other. You speak to one and they you speak to the next and that's how hello we're still here 3,000 years later studying the same brought because our generations like Moshe to the people taught down and down and that is all right so it's a good introduction even though it was about the it was about really all of and now let's find if we can clarify a few things about So let's now question number one. Why do we think there are 10 dB? Why are there 10? Why why aren't there 11 or 12 or maybe eight or nine? Well, why 10? It's an even number. Even number it could have been like eggs could have had dozen of them. Yeah. Fingers. Oh, 10 fingers. That's why if ah it could have 20 cuz he could have taken they're wearing sandals. They could have cut they could have counted on dead toes too right and then the term of um debro commandments if we accept that there are 10 and we'll show you why we have to accept that which are the 10 if I would have you read through the text and I think I gave you the brute that whole sheet of the ten commandments And if I would ask you, how many commandments do you find in there? I think you'd be um surprised. Okay, we say ten commandments. Let's see. And I have where it says the yro version. It's not in English, but we begin with, for example, well, I'll I'll take that aside. We'll do that in a second. And again debro as I said are debro commandments. No what what are what? Okay. Utterances. Well exactly. What would you say if you say ten commandments? You say I say it what? Utterances spoken. No. No. How would you say it if it was commandments? What's command? Well, it's a directive in in Hebrew. What is a commandment? A devot de. No, you're doing dropped. How do you say I want you to do this close? I want you to do this. It would be correct. That's not what it says. It is called and you correctly pointed out that it source is from the dair. So it doesn't mean ten commandments. It means 10 pronouncements. You are correct. Um, dra whatever you want to say it. So I I sort of solve that reason why I say dra. But let's why do I think why do I do we think it's ten commandments? I'll show you that there are a lot more than that and that and this thing. So why do we say ten commandments? It means we had no choice because the Torah calls it that. refined it in um I'm trying to see if I have it here in my source sheets. I don't have it here. I should have it here in the source sheets where you see it. Um please please please two or three could fit into one category. But but it's but it's more than one command. But it's still one fit into one category. Then there's Well, fine. That's true, by the way. But still. All right. Good. I didn't have it here. I didn't do a very good job when I wanted to. Okay. Anyway, you have, for example, we find that it says not once, not twice, but three times in the Torah, we have it says Moshe stayed with God and it says he didn't eat and drink. All right? wrote at the Rahab and he wrote down the the words of the covenant that God made them 10. So there it's 10 not 14. So it says 10 and then it says shown again that Moshe wrote down as were in the first tablets the 10 things pronouncements we'll call them right and then we have it at even a third time um where it says uh that God spoke to them again this is inanim you heard God's voice but you didn't see God and God told you then about the the bre that you are uh tied tied to that he told you from the 10 things. So three times in the Torah we see that this what we call the wrote had to beer because it says that's how we know it's 10. So that's we took over that question. Now um I could go through and I may have to if you look quickly at how many mitzvah we have in the jiro and we see clearly it's not ten commandments. Let's stop. Well, I'm I'm going to put that aside unless do you see here on that first part of the um that you see on the right side of the page of the itro. Count how many what we say breaks there are as a Torah would write it. See how many spaces there are. count. There's one after two after three after then four before low. Number five before low. Number six before low. Number seven before low eight n before nine after that mode again. And then 10 at the end. But the very breakage breaking po pauses found and written in the Torah also indicate that there are 10. God saw it as 10 10 which is interesting. It's not only um it's not it's not something for sure because for sure we know because it says in the Torah but it's even written that way. But what I wanted to look for is mitzvot. When you talk about the we always mistakenly say the ten commandments. It's not we say it's not commandments. It's a dro pronouncements. And it's not really uh and it's 10 because it says so. But it's not ten commandments. I'm going to start with the first one. Okay. Um let's go to I would say the other side but I don't have it inside the last part of the I brought things you shouldn't do or all what we call lavin all things thou shalt not you know the old story that um when Moshe when Moshe shattered the at um Hari the joke goes that when it broke in half. Um the um people of the world came running around. They grabbed they grabbed the broken pieces and the Jews also did. The Jews ended up getting all of the low low low and everybody else said everything uh it's a joke but it is something that it says at the end there you have obviously um one two three four five we have five basically so it's it says uh loaf and low mode which Isn't those five? So, those are five mitzvo. No problem. But look at the first five there. It's more of a positive thing. Although it has some ex very interesting. Um are there any low what you cannot do in the first five? Look at the first five you see in lines one through uh 22. Let's say it's really to 20 24. But any how many times do you see any low you shall not do something? Huh? Why didn't you? I can't hear. What? No, there's one. One. Really? Let's go. one is two, right? Um three four um next five, right? Shabbat. So it says there right six lows are found here in the first part. So I have six over there. So so right away I have six more lavin six negative mitzvot beyond the five that are negative in the end. That's 11 and I haven't started the positive ones yet. So already we are more than than um 10. So let's see um what's the first what is the first command that we have uh here again it's not in English but what is that the first words it says I am the Lord your God took you out of the the land of Egypt uh from the uh let's from enslavement in the house of slaves. That's the first mitzvah, right? Good. What's the command to acknowledge? Hello. Acknowledge. Oh, so it says, "Thou shalt acknowledge that I am Hashem their God." Right? Oh, makes sense. Very good. That is exactly what Rashi says. That other traditionalists say that and it's certainly logical. It's only one problem. It doesn't say that. Why doesn't say thou shalt know that I am your God? Doesn't say that. Thou shalt believe and know that I am God. Doesn't say can you. Is this a mitzvah or not? There is a command someone to acknowledge that choice. Can you can you command you to love God? That's a command. Huh? Good. There is a there's a difference. There is an argument between commentators whatever as to whether that's a mitzvah or not. Theel says it's not. Which one? The first. The first because there's no Every other one has some sort of command. You shall and you shall not. This doesn't say nothing. But what about free choice? How could free choice? That has nothing to do with Is this a command? That's all I'm saying you. You're saying it's not. I'm not saying that. It's the nothing before. It's not a completely agreed. Isn't it a commandment to acknowledge and therefore accept? How about this? Okay, there are those exactly what you say. That's what Rashi says. How about think of it this way? The people have left Egypt. They had seen 10 plagues. They had seen the Egyptians destroyed. They seen the Red Sea split. And now they also saw a victory at Amal right against the the Amalachites. Moshe showed his hands up, right? They saw man, the mana being coming down. Man in the morning, morning in the evening, man at supper time. There's man every single time, you know, twice a day. They had man every single day. Every morning they came there and came down from God cuz they complained they wanted. They even had some meat that God sent with the slav and now they come and God says I know you haven't seen me but you know all of those uh miracles I know I'm the one who took you out of I'm the one who did all these miracles for you. So be aware of that. If I'm about to give you mitzvah that that you have to follow, you have to know it's me who's telling you that. You have to know that I'm the one who has done this for you. And as a result of that, you are obligated to listen to what I've said by knowledge. No, I asked you is that is if that's a command and the point is there's no word of command. You know what this is and it makes so much sense. It's an introduction. Hi, I'm God. You know, I do all these good things to you. Now, listen to me. Don't do this. Don't do that. Don't do that. That first thing is not many many believe. Not a mitzvah at all. It's merely an introduction to the mitzvah. And you know what's interesting about that? Again, if you look at the text, do you find that there's any break between the first two lines where it says, is there a break to start is there? No. And yet at the beginning of every other uh um I'm sorry command there is a break there is none there. So is that possibly a hint? Now this is not a command merely as an introduction to that first command. So that's very interesting and that's something that we wouldn't ordinarily know. But I want you to whether it's Rashi who says it's commanded as most people think you correctly said you must believe that I am and that's why it is an unspoken command or as others say there's no command here at all because it doesn't say anything about him to do that but rather it's an introduction to let them know that this booming voice that's suddenly coming out of the heavens is not somebody with a good PA system. It is God who has just done all of these for you uh these miracles for you and saved your life and therefore that's why you should be listening to low don't do this but do that and so on and so forth. Very interesting. Good. Um, so now we are going to go through the the like I said the the six loaves that I went through in the first slide and and there are five but one of them is is is but two are found in the last one. So there are six lows in the last habitat. There's a separation. It's interesting. What are the first six different? How are they different from the other six? Well, primarily when the first six refer to the relationship of whom? To whom? Imagine between us and God. Very good. Between us and God. The second six Do not murder, right? Do not commit adultery. Do not steal or kidnap if you wish. Do not uh send a false witness against another. And do not combat another's uh wife or uh any any possessions that he has. So that's the the six there. Of course, there's one that's problematic. Which one do you think that we're saying the first part is all between man and God and less always between man and man? Uh person and person, right? Which one you think doesn't really fit comfortably into that seduction? Huh? Right. Say it out loud. You're right. Thou shalt respect your parents. Would that not be properly in this section that says between one and another, not against God, but rather one and another. That makes sense, right? And yet it's not. It's not. It's there at the at the last of the between God and man, between man and God. It's a curious thing. Why is that? Why? I wonder why. The foundation of respecting God is respecting your parents. So you don't teach your child to respect your parent their parents, they certainly won't respect you. I think that's a very very good answer. I would put it the different way around and that would be if you're not prepared. It's as if you are not showing respect to God. that there is a connection between your relationship to your parents. It's as sancted sanctified as your relationship to God himself. Kazal said over and over again um that within a relationship there are not two partners but three you know there is man, woman and God. uh the famous thing I think is Rabbi Mayor who said that um that is and issa what's the difference in Hebrew between is and isa the yud and the hey which is the name of god god is in that and what does he say if there's no god no y and hey in the in the relationship ship all you're left with is what is what sheer or fire if you God is not found in a relationship of I is all you're going to have is fire is con is consumed the relationship will be consumed will be burned out magnificent way because I'll see it and they're pretty smart they come up with this fantastic things and it's so true. So that's why maybe that's why it's in the last one. The the fact that we have six and six here is also very interesting and I listen I heard this from um Yoel Benu who said what things in the Torah that we know are divided but six and six. Certain things might be hard for you to know other things you might know. I'm fitness. That's 12. What's 12? Anything that loaves the excellence. Excellent. Terrific. The loaves the That's correct. And the uh tribes, he said, right? Well, that's the other one. 12 tribes. Very good. That's what it says. It says, it's in at the end there. It says that uh you have to take the soul and you have to prepare the 12 of the the um right 12ishna. No. Um so huh. Very good. Is correct. And how they divide it up? Well, they had 12. They had 12, but not 12 in a pile. They had six and six. Okay. Very good. When when the tribes had to stand at Har Greim and Haral 12 tribes, how were they divided up? Six and six. Six at Harriim. Six at Haral. Correct. The other thing is when you talk about the breastplate of the you have no six or one or six it says um yeah six of the tribes names are found on one of the stones and the other stones are the other six. So we see there the six and six is not simply oh I'm gonna have something different you know um the de also have a six and six it's a little more subtle than what we read about splitting up the the um and the um tribes at Harrisim and Haral um it's never really commend commended commanded in never said Moshe when he had to inscribe it himself. He said he doesn't tell him okay Moshe put six on this side and six on the other right he doesn't command that at all so it's a little more subtle but clearly it is divided that way which is interesting um one societal laws societal mores right and those are more like religious ordinances Um now what's also interesting and looking at this is just things that when you read don't just read give a look at what is you'll notice that the first five have almost all five of them have differences that have explanations why for example or or what might happen the last five. So they say don't do this, don't do that, don't do this, don't do that, don't do that. But the first five, the first four or five, if you want to stop with the as do why should you not have another god? Because I am a ve I am a I can say vengeful vengeful but I am a I think jeal z je z je z je z je z je z je z je z je z je z jealous is a much better word meaning not easily forgiving um and so that's one course I will punish you then it says don't take god's name in vain there too there's a reason it says god is not going to forgive those who take his name in. Then we have it says about the Shabbat, right? Why do we have to have Shabbat? What does it say there in um not? What reason does it say in why do we have to have Shabbat? because God is the creator and therefore he stopped the creation process on Shabbat so shall you. And then even at even though we seem to be know so to say seesawing between uh man and God and man and man, the reasoning is is certainly has God in here because if you do show um respect to your parents, it says so that you will have a longer life. Who can guarantee and ensure a longer life? Just God. So you see how he's involved there. So it's very simply um and in fact how do they refer to uh God right? It says um right and then it says then it says and it says because each time and each of these five times it says Hashem el God your God. It's fascinating. It doesn't say that, however, on the sec on the second five where it just says don't do this, don't do that, don't do that. Why not? This God doesn't have to repeat himself. Ah, come on. That's not a good reason. It's more obvious. Obvious. What is the first five all about? Your relationship with God. God. So it follows the second five is about your relationship with man. That's right. You don't need a god to tell you you shouldn't kill somebody. There are some basic laws. They're societal laws. Only crazy people go and kidnap and they murder and they steal. No society could survive that way. Although many of the countries today think it's a great idea that way. Yeah. Right. We can't get political here. Yeah. Right. America, it's such an obvious obvious thing that God doesn't see say or else cuz I'm God. No, because you're a mench. You're a human being. You don't do that. It's it's so so obvious. And you point it out. I think it's so obvious. And in society, these are laws you have to follow cuz how would you even think not to, you know? And they say, but Hashem designed the society. I mean the the generation of the flesh Hashem um Hashem also was there when Hammurabi made his uh his code and he has the same same thing not to murder not that who's Hami Hamarabi it said it's written in in he's found in Noah but oh uh no it's I'm sorry it's one of the it's one of the one of the kings who fought against and but anyway. Huh? Amabi. Am Rafael. Am Rafael is found. Amra Rafael is one of those four kings who you know Rafael was Hammurabi. But he made a code. He made a code. It's a very well-known code that was before. Um, and it's interesting sometimes just to uh see how the what what's what's common and what's not common. One of the things we learned tremendously uh I found this fascinating when I learned about this where the co code of kamarabi of the code of hammarabi states for example that if one um um kills another's child right so his child is killed and why do I say it's fascinating because we have in the Torah aut that says uh that one who kills another it says uh and it says there that uh however it says oh come on man it says um that you kill the person and not the child the opposite as well why of course not killed the person in effect one can say it as a response to what seemed to have been a common thing in the ancient world that that's what they did God says no no no we don't do So anyway, that's the code of Hammarabi and I get into that, but I'm just merely saying that um so the second part, the second need no here. This is something you have to know as a moral person. That's part of societal norms that any proper society. No, you cannot live in a society where you're just going to kill people and then steal from death. How how do you you can't live together and if you can't live together what what good is it? So that's also very very very interesting. Um and let's see what else may have other things about it. What I'm going to do, I'll skip a little bit and if you'd like and again you'll have this um brought see if you find the differences. I think the most wellknown is the one that we sing in right the inro starts the the story of the the mitzvah of Shabbat with whereas in when quoting it in it says shabor So Kazal talked about theata the idea that there was a miracle that they could hear both sham and zah one of those gody things that nobody else could do and they heard both things and they were pronounced at the same time that's what it says should say but since alab had written that poem of he has start so he sham both of these said they was at the same time and that's one approach. Um but you can say even at the same time as a zur and more are not two different things we have constantly in the Torah. It says you have right and then it says it means but it makes it the next time it says it it says sham because often sham and are synonymous. Okay, I look my my time is up unfortunately few other things but I think I gave some ideas about the dra little different than what we ordinarily would have seen also delineating the table.