The Power of Davening with a Tzibbur (Pt III) | Rabbi Yossi Goldin

Um, we're going to get started cuz I see I'm a few minutes late, so I apologize. Uh, we're getting started a little bit late, but um, I hope everybody had a wonderful wonderful PES and um, that we're now getting back in, as they say, getting back into our our regular regular schedule, which will then be interrupted next week by all the things we have next week and then the week after and then the week after. So, it's uh, next week. No, no, no, there are classes. There are classes. It's just it's a very busy it's a very busy month that we have coming up. Um but uh it should be a meaningful a meaningful uh kayets of of learning together. And as always we we dive in that our learning should um should protect our our soldiers and um should bring back our bring much to all those who have been affected by this war. And as we always end as as well should give guidance the proper guidance to our leaders to make the right decisions all all our our learning. Okay. So we're kind of kind of getting back into something we were in the middle of talking about and the truth was my initial plan had been to finish talking about davining with davining uh with the tabore before pesak. I even tried to rush it if we those of you were here last the last class before pesak. tried to like rush in the last few ideas and I was like, you know what, better to do a little bit less. Sometimes less is more. Um, so what I what I decided was we're going to spend this week finishing up the topic of doinvening uh with a tibor, the power as I call it, of doing with a treor part three. We're going to repeat one important idea that we did cover last week, last time we were together. Um, but I think it's an important idea and I kind of rushed it at the very end and then we're going to cover a topic which has come up. we haven't really discussed in detail and that is the topic of uh women's obligation or women whether there is a value uh what value there is to women doing with the chore as well. So we'll start with I want to start with um just just to remember what we've been talking about. We had been discussing the few weeks leading up to Pesak talking about the importance and the power of davining with a tibbor with a minan. uh we talked we spent a lot of time seeing various ideas as to why it's important to do davin with a t-bore the value of what comes of domining with the tibbor what we also saw towards the end was we discussed how there is a second type of davening there's ding with a minion but then there's also something where if you look at the text of our text actually is in the language of plural where we're not just when we say even the ding that we do that's as an individual the and much of the that we have are stated in the plural where we're not just domining for ourselves, we're actually domining for the community. That's a second type of because the idea is that our not simply self-directed, but the areali they're form is they are there's also an opportunity for us to add in our own personal but we have to remember that much of our is meant to be not just for ourselves in a selfish way, but to also be domining for for the community and for the tou. The last thing we did was a a a beautiful idea that it's a it's become a famous idea that was developed by by Salvich the Rav um regarding another type of bitore and he called he distinguished between two ideas again we saw this last week last time but I want to kind of see it inside again he distinguishes between what he calls bitsore and hats okay what's the difference between the two bits which is a tremendously valued thing refers to a group of individuals who come together to davin as a minion. I am sitting there as an individual and we have 10 individuals at least who are coming together domining together and Cesra Salvich many of the sources that we saw that talk about the value of diving with a minion refer to that idea. The idea that people come together and they dive in as one creates a certain aura. It creates a certain ambiance is much more powerful uh as we know come the is found anytime 10 people come together to dav to to davin and that sense of salvation is a very powerful idea. But there is another type of that that we that we are able to tap into when we come together um as a community and that is what he calls hot and that is when the community is no longer a group of individuals each of them doing together. It is when the tibbor coaleses and creates a communal their of the community. It's not a commu. It's not it within the community. It's of the community. And the best way to I think uh to understand this and Salvich himself distinguishes this as well is he distinguishes between is the model of corbanote. When we had corbanote in the beta mikdash there were different types of corbanote. There were the corbanote y and then there was the corbanote. Corbonote y referred to an individual had to bring a corban whatever corban that would be and every individual would come and bring the corb. It could be if he sinned a corbanat or it could be if he took a vow when he promised to bring a kban. So he would bring a corban dava or a corban aurban. Um another way of looking at it we just celebrated pes was pesak. What was everybody had to bring a pesak. So if you the describes how you had hundreds of thousands of people who were coming and bringing a all on one day. If you think we have bad traffic in Jerusalem now, imagine what it was like walking to or trying to bring your horse whatever it was to bring your goat to ones when all of Israel were coming on Pesan to bring the Quran Pesak. To me that is the symbolic or the is comparable to Bitsy. Each individual was bringing their own pesak but they were doing it in a communal way. Theishim describes how they had how the kohan were very efficient in doing the and passing the blood. It had to be very very efficient because it was a lot of people bringing a lot of corban out all together. Then there was another type of of corban which is what we call it a corban hatore which is one animal that's brought but that one animal represents the entire community. Okay. The corbanote of the khagim or corbonote sib the corbanote of yum kippers. Sorry corbantame. Thank you correct is also a corbans where it is one animal that is brought but that animal represents the entire community says of salvic it is the same thing with when we dive in with a minion we are actually tapping into two different levels of of communal there is bit where we're all coming together and that he describes as what happens when we all say the silent shimon together when everyone the whole minion comes together and they're each saying their own silent That is we're each individually saying our own but we're doing it as a community and there's tremendous value spiritually and many different things that we can gain from that. Then says we have is when the gets up. One person says the rest of us say a and that salvic is comparable to that is one prayer said by one person but he is representing the entire community and that says is comparable is is is meant to be modeled after the the the corbanor. So if you look at source number one, this is a this is a excerpt from an essay. So again, so I believe I believe that what speaks about it specifically regard regard regard specifically regarding I believe we can suggest that it really refers to anytime the community comes together all those things that we can only say as kadesh kadusha again I don't know he doesn't extend it to those things but to me it is logical to suggest that anything which can only be said as would be when we all together that again I don't know it could be that you could see that as we're all saying it and it's just something we could we as individuals can all say only together or it could be that that when we all say it together it coaleses to be uh to be to be the uniqueness about which could be what was referring to is that it's only only the khazin says it and if only the khazin saying it he's representing everybody you could in theory s try to extend that idea to anytime the community comes together to say things that only we can say as a Tor I don't know that is just a that's an it's an interesting question okay if you look at source number one this is where Salvich describes the idea beautiful idea he's discussing a question regarding what should be said out loud onhat and through that he develops this idea and he develops it in many different places I just brought you one excerpt says it seems to be lamarak shelu right any part of the and I think he's referring here to the if I'm not mistaken he's referring to the bureanim which if there is no coh and you say then then that certainly in it's where they don't do so they say there's a part that that only the only thean says and says it needs to all be said out loud okay we're going to skip the bracketed says because only when the says something out loud and you have at least nine i.e. Therefore a group of 10 who are coming together to say it. You have you have the saying the and everyone else is listening and answering and responding. Then it becomes a part of the debate because there are two different concepts when it comes to the of the community. What isore? What is as a community? That's when you have 10 people, each of them saying their individual quietly. He refers to and they're all saying it together. And there's a special power to that. And then because the represent is the he is the messenger. He is the representative of the community. He is dening as himself for everybody. It is similar to a cohane who brings the corbansore. When the Cohen would bring the Corbanor as as he says, it was one animal that was meant to represent the entire community. And therefore, says Salvation, that is what that is what khazarat is. We're going to skip source number two for now, but if you look at source number three in Sharav, one second, I just want to finish this point and I'm happy to take a question or a comment. in Nephes which is say for that u refers she roshiva and roshola yes university uh who was who was one of the talid muvak of of of so he has a book called nephesh harav where it's a few different it's actually a series where he outlines different minhagim that had uh so if you look at source number three brings this idea and he even mentions a practical ramification of this of this raenuay rail in source number three raenu means used to Okay, there are two different concepts as we said and is of the community right when the says he's not justing for himself and therefore he says he it's for the entire vash When the gets up to the words of the then becomes like a communal offering the same model. It's the same idea. It is on behalf of the entire community. And he says it also has it impacts it impacts um it impacts. And then he says the following and we mentioned this last time as well. Therefore, therefore had the minimal had the min that even during which is the time when many of us start to walk around and you know hopefully not look at our phones and look at the safer that's right in front of us and look what other alone is over there and talk to our friend right all the things we shouldn't be doing had the mug and I've seen many who do this his entire he stood with his feet together focused following word for word why because he understood that this was not just the kazin saying again it was the for the entire that was there the khazin was representing him and in order to be represented he needed to be appropriately ready for and therefore had the minhug to to keep to stand there with his with his feet closed okay a couple of questions but I'll Give you one second so he can raise his hand first. Yes. Sure. People are saying it together or is it okay if one person is saying good question. Good question. The question that was asked was if we're talking about does it have to be that everyone's kind of up to the same thing at the same time or can it be that everyone you know one guy's in Shamar and the next other guy other guy's close to Shabbach and the other guy still putting on his filling good question I don't know I haven't seen Salvich discuss in detail I think obviously the idea is and part of why again also by the way you could if you think about it there's also different models this this just came to me now um if you think about the way that Ashkinazim Davin or the way that Davin right the the sparty davin Even the sukimra is a very sim is is similar to what we have forhat where the person gets up and he's saying and everyone says everyone says it together right what do we do in Ashkanazim if we're lucky the kazin says the first line and the last line and then everyone tries to catch up to him for for each for each paragraph okay now what's the purpose of that some places by the way there are some yeshiv vote in some places where they don't oh they don't they say nope everyone on your road in 15 minutes we're going to get up or 20 minutes we're going to get up to we don't need to have a pace many try to have a pace I think The purpose of having that pace of every of ending every paragraph is to try to keep a certain pace together. And I think that's the ideal of what we would call. We're each saying it, but we're each saying the same thing. Now, does that mean if I fall behind or I come a little bit late, I've missed out. I I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't know. I don't know where to draw that line. You could argue that as long as we're all in the act of davining together and we're all generally in the same place, that's considered to be for example of there's questions. what's considered to be domining with the tibbor you have to start with start with the there there are there is a discussion about these things it's usually mostly around which is the main fela than it is around the other stuff but I don't want to get into the the nitty-gritty but it's a good question I think you're right that in order for it to qualify as we we're calling fa bitsy bore you should be generally up to the community now if you're not what do you do should you skip should you those are all those are all lucky questions what happens if you come late to schul and how do you you know that's that's that but it's a good question it's a good Yes. standing during the entire shot. Uh does he mean that does that mean that he's with obviously that? No. No. So I I again I don't know. I don't I I don't I don't I do believe that he holds that we do say to Rabban. Um again if you if there there are there are I don't I would say it this way. I'm not 100% sure because I didn't I didn't do the research on how how how it applies to Raan. But what I do know that by modem Raban there's also a big debate what you're supposed to do. Meaning there are some sh some people that when when we're saying modm then and then very often the some in some places the the the kazin just says the mod the regular modem to himself and no one can hear him and then by the time you get back you kind of hopefully you end by the time he ends. Other places say no you're supposed to wait let everyone say and then wait so that everyone can hear you. You're supposed to say every single word out loud ideally in a way that everyone can hear it. I think we generally assume that mean that everyone that that even when I'm saying I should still be able to hear the the saying saying the regular modem I don't think I don't think that this is necessarily one against the other it's a good question because if it's if it's so some listen it could be that he holds that even at sometimes just like we we all say it could be that there is some kind of give and take uh the question you say you're saying well there is no a because the a's only the the later part but we are our own text. You mean after right? Right. But there's no but there's no we all say then we say modem he says modm and then for for for the next by the time he gets to the next I think we all agree that we that we that we that we answer but it's a good it's a good question. Yes. What are the sources actually? Surely the fact that everybody's talking is there anyone understand? So, so, so, so again we I I it's no, so I I I I don't I don't think that I don't think that necessarily means that the general as again and I have my understanding is the general source and the main source for the concept of of was the idea that it used to be at a time when people not everyone knew that knew the text and therefore and that's why it started okay I don't think that necessarily goes against what rosiki is saying because it could be that the reason it was initially instituted we could ask the question once Meaning the the main question by the way there are many people who try who have tried to say we shouldn't do anymore. Why? Because we all have sedur and we all know how to say it. And I think ideas prove that no there still is value to what we're doing. Meaning I don't think it's necessarily in either in either or proposition. It could be that it started out as something that was practical but it still has meaning has significance and it could be it's later significance uh that that that it becomes something that now we come together as a community to offer. And I think again even if you understood it to be that it was it was initially instituted for people who didn't know the fact that we do it as a community doesn't mean that we should be treating the fact that we still do it means we should be treating it with respect. So I think of Salvatic's point of if you're not going to stand with your feet together the idea that you should be paying attention and answering a main and not talking and not you know all those things. I think that's 100% true even if you didn't even if you didn't necessarily agree with Salvich's distinction. But I I I do believe that Salvich's distinction has a tremendous amount of meaning in terms of visually understanding the power of of Okay. Yes. Two last questions and then we'll go on. to the part of the mod. We're saying and he sayim for for himself. It's a good question. I'm not sure. I'll have to look into that. I don't know. I I don't know exactly why we say the mod raban. What you're saying makes sense. Um although it why would we have a different text than what than what he has. It's an interesting it's an Yeah, we did. Correct. Correct. Correct. But again, if if we understand that and this is what I think if we understand that that that this is really a a communal that would make sense. We we each should be should be should hear his text as well. Uh I don't think it's mutually exclusive. We could say our own text and still think that there's a value to what we're saying. Yeah, of course. 100 100% 100% 100% but that doesn't necessarily take away from the from from the importance of of hearing his text as well. That's a good point. Have a question about generally because um I have yard twice a year from my parents and then I go with my son to unfortunately cottage. It's unbelievable how fast the men shoppers in the morning. Like it takes them about 25. So we get a lot of So yeah. So that that that's a that's a comment. Many of you many of you have commented about the about the speed of this and and and by the way we're going to get to that. By the way, that's actually something we're going to touch on today when we talk about the obligation for women, whether women should go to shul. Should they go to sh every day? Do they need to go to sh every day? Uh should they d within? Should they d at home? This is an interesting question that you're ra that you're raising. Um I think it's and and again we you've mentioned this a number of times many people have mentioned this I I think at the end of the day and and the one thing that I would say about that is that every shul has its own has its own pace has its own nature has its own style and I think you're right that and and and I think there's also I don't think there's one I don't think there's one rule that every that every minute needs to be slower every minute needs to be faster because there are different types of people and there are some people as I mentioned in the past there are some people I've heard that say that they that they have better kavana when doing is shorter because they that as opposed to when doing is longer and I the logic to that in the sense that obviously you have to say the words but other but people say words at different paces and some people so I think that as we all know people are different and people find meaning in different styles and in different lengths and in different things obviously there's always going to be a limit in terms of what should be the minimum amount of time and we can sit here and debate what that what that should be I think the job of a shul and the job of a rabbi is to find that balance between what what is appropriate what should be the minimum what should be like listen this is already becoming what we would call a which means it's almost embarrassing it's not dovening That should be the limit. That's the rap the job of the rabbi and the leadership of the community to say this is the minimum whatever that is. I mean I I've been in many shs where they have a set they have a set time some depends on the kazin whenever kazin gets ups there sometimes it's long some shs they say no 10 minutes for this 15 minutes for this seven minutes for and there's there actually is a sheet of paper that says please do not start and that at least you know what you're getting at least you know what sh you're going to I think our job is to find a community in a that is my team for us if we know that we're somebody who dav in slowly which I think is always valuable if and that and that's what works for us then we should we should be trying to find a community and the minion that reflects that. But I don't but I I I think that what the way the way that I say it is that like I I find with minanim everybody has their pace and anyone who goes faster than them is way too fast and anyone who goes slower than them is way too slow. Right? That's just it. Meaning so like and and if you and if we went around the room now we probably would get 50 different approaches as to how long it should be. So my point is is that it's very individualized and our job is to try to find the community that most reflects our values. the job of a rabbi in a community and and the leadership of a community is to find that balance between the needs of those communities and what that community wants because every community every community person uh is I think is is is very different. Yes, there was one sorry one more question I think. Yeah. Yeah. No, just the comment that I heard that many of the communities we adopt very fast. It's to outra theor very cute to outra theor. No, I I again I do I have heard some people say that was suggested by the answer. Yes. Okay. Very nice. Again, no again I I I I think it is important to recognize that there are some people who they they a faster pace is more meaningful for them in terms of a flow of the or there's somebody who when they take longer there's their mind starts to wander. Many of us who I'm sure have dive in longer also often find ourselves being like what am I in? Right? You're sitting there and you're gonna do slowly. You're gonna say every word and and I'm sure I'm talking to mostly myself, but to many of us here as well. And all of a sudden you're domining and you're dominating and you're going slow. All of a sudden you're like, you know, thinking about the New York Mets and thinking about the stock market. Then you're like, wait, what am I up to? Did I already do or did I not do? It's embarrassing to do it a second time, right? So you so you have to So we The point is that longer isn't always better. I think we should strive to be saying every word striving to say every word with kavana for everybody that might be a little bit different and I think it's important to recognize that and it's the job of a community leader to find that right balance that helps everybody and for us to be mashim what I mean by that is if we come to a this is the we and they go too fast you know we really should be doing not just I'm saying it's okay to complain it's okay it's okay to speak to the rabbi but you know what you should do come five minutes earlier come five minutes if you know that this is something that goes too fast this is the minion you're going to dive in in. Put it upon yourself. I think we should be focusing on the owners and ourselves and say I know this is a minion that goes too fast for me, but this is where I want to dive in. I'm going to make an effort to come earlier to start earlier. I'm not saying we can't complain to the to the powers that be if that is the appropriate thing to do. But I think where it's more effective to put the challenge on us to try to find that pace and to try to find that than it is to to do everything else. Okay. I I just want to I want to if I think so. I think that qualifies. Again, we're talking about starting. I'm not saying so start. I think I think if you're doing that in order to be able to keep pace to get to I I I think so. I believe so. I'm not saying to start before them. I'm saying to start before them. So those are parts so that when they get up to and sh you're hopefully at pace with them which is the most important place to be at pace with them. That's I mean again that's my that's that would be my understanding. Okay. What I'd like to do now is I'd like to this community with this and then the other one you look basic but it's different. So if I go up there no one can tell me that I and that other okay so you're raising you're raising a different I think what you were talking about and again I don't want to spend too much time but this this isn't this is this is an interesting phenomenon and I think it's important I'll mention it very very briefly and that is Nusa okay so you have you have in what again this is obviously there's more than this the general three that exist in Israel I again there's more because you know within there's probably like 30 different types of but I'm there's what we call Ashkanazi what we call nusakarad okay which is Ashkanazi with a twist They say and they change a few words here. It's mostly Ashkanazi. In America we call that we don't but we we call that no that's and then you have what's called which in America we usually call theim but that's a little bit it's it's different here. Okay. So you have Ashkanazi now is a totally different text generally. They have a different style. They have a different way of how they do it. Nusk Ashkanaz are are similar but they're they have they have they have their additions. They have the orders are different. I don't want to get into all the details of that. Now should a shul have won or not? When I I what I recall for many many many years when I was growing up certainly in the schul in America and many many shs in America and I imagine it was true here. Most shak it was akin was and that was what it is. It has become much much more common. When I I lived in Ranana about 15 years ago and there was one schol that had this and I thought it was very very strange. depended on the kazin the if the kazin who got up was was ashkenaz and everyone did ashkanaz and if the got did was farad I remember thinking this is very strange now 15 years later having moved I live in shalim and many shs have adopted that min I don't know why the sh the sh that I'm in the show that I'm in now that I adopted in in in in kibbut shalim used to be a very proud ashkinaz was like that was who we are and now whenever they get up. Whoever gets up it's now I find that very frustrating because I don't know what the guy is saying especially when we're talking about answering kadusha right am I supposed to say am I supposed to say so there was the shulan ran on that used to do it I thought something was very smart they used to have a sign and the sign had one side it said and the other side it said and when the kazin got up the gabay or the khazin's job was to turn the sign so at least the tibbor knew what we're saying now whether or not this is the right thing to do it seems to become much more mikubal. Maybe it's just a form of trying to give uh expression to everyone who moves into the community recognizing that we're all different groups. I don't know why it's become much more common. I find it confusing but it has become much more commonplace. What's more confusing is when you have a sh doesn't have a sign because our doesn't have a sign and once I said well why don't we have a sign? They're like well most people know that who the guy is getting up. What I'm like what what if that's a guest? What if I just moved here and I don't I haven't let learned. So to me, if a shul decides to do that, they should at least have a sign so they can inform the seabore what the sucker dominate. Um, yes, but even that I get confused about sometimes because I don't even I don't I don't always know which order they did it in. Meaning you're right, but let's say I don't hear whether they started with with hu or this or that. And also, and this is where it gets even more confusing, you have one from Zimra and another gets up there for so it can get it can it can it can sometimes get confusing. That's true. But even there sometimes you might forget you don't remember meaning meaning I find it I find it confusing personally but that's become the the the communal the communal approach. Yes. Okay. I really don't want to take too much time on this but one thing and then then I want to go on. Pronunciation pronunciation of of the again so that that is that it's a great question. It's a great question. I think that I think that again I think everyone has their own pronunciation and their own and their own way of saying the tilot. It could be certain seabors will only let someone if they have that that that that that's a communal decision. The one time that that really becomes a question is in creator and the only time that really becomes a question is when is when creator is is biblical which would be on parad. So I'll just tell you a quick story. My my wife my my oldest my oldest was born a week before a week before p. If she had been a boy, it would have been a bris on Purulish. Okay. She was a girl. Barashem. Wonderful. Uh, take that as you will. And and my wife and we were we were in Sh we were in Shah Tadek and my wife went in or we were in over Shabas. The baby hadn't been born yet, but we were at the hospital already Friday night. Baby was born Shabbat and I ded in the shul in Shared. Long story. We talked about another time, but uh I ded I ded in the Shul in Shared and uh it wasn't Shek, sorry. It was in Karem and I ded for Par. David they had at least seven different readings of parad they had Ashkanazi tmani. So now there you're talking about a biblical commandment to read from the Torah. I could understand that people are going to be mocked. who want it to be read in your and therefore there are many shoos where even if they're Ashkanazi they'll still have someone come up and read it from Misra or read it just because we're talking about the biblical fulfillment of a mitzvah and therefore you can mock when it comes to regular davening again certain communities might say no this is our community and you have to do in the way that we do it but in terms of what's considered appropriate I think any that is within the general approach I think is considered to be to be appropriate okay so now we're going to we're going to move on to the uh to the to to the topic of women and ci um again This topic I know is mostly relevant for the window and I think it's actually it's actually an important topic because it enables us to highlight a couple of different aspects of that I think that I think are important. Just quick background and a summary of what we've seen till now regarding the obligation of the bitore. When we discussed the men's obligation for you may recall that even there there was a mllo at whether men are obligated to davin bits or whether it's just recommended because it's an opportunity. The language of the we saw was you should try didn't say to and and some were some inferred from the that this is something that's an opportunity we saw the power theoras all talk about what you gain from it and how the are more accepted and how and the is found and some postkim understood that to mean it's something you should try to do because your tot will become more accepted and more have more power to them but it is not a full-fledged obligation we saw of Mosha Finstein in a couple of paces and many other post say no this is an actual obligation this is an actual obligation all things being considered it could be that if you have various reasons not to for certain circumstances then okay you can be lenient it's not you still should dive in but it's not as import it's not as high of a level as the obligation to davin but Moshe did say that it was an what he called ava an obligation and a mitzvah that a person should try to dive in with a minion but understanding that even when it comes to men there's a question is an important background as we now look at the question for for women. Okay, the postgrims say pretty much unequivocally that women are not obligated to datab with a minion. There are two main reasons that are brought down that are mentioned for why that is the case. One is which is the more famous well-known reason right because this is a mitzvah that even though we saw that according to many postgame itself the concept of just davening that's not because you can dive in whenever you want right we saw the Rambab says that davening just dvening can be done in any form whenever you want and therefore it is not a timebound mitzvah but davening is certainly going to be a time bound mitzvah because there's only certain times when you can find the tibbor and therefore Or it would follow that if since women are are not are exempt from time not they are not obligated that's one reason also not counted in the other the other reason the other reason that postkim mentioned for why women are not obligated to dive in bits is because they are not counted in the minan that because they're not count no this is actually interesting because some postk say the opposite some postk say the reason why they're not counted bits is because they're not obligated bits so which is came first the chicken the egg. It's a good question. But but many posts do just say that since women are not obl since are not counted for the minion, they are therefore not obligated. Okay. Now, why are women what so what what what we're going to get there. We're going to get there. Now the question becomes well okay so when it comes to women being being pure uh from what's the main reason why women are generally patur from so the standard understanding and explanation is again I'm summarizing lots of different discussions and sources just to kind of simplify it for us uh is is that because women have other obligations and have other opportunities and and and things that they that that they that they are dealing with specifically when it comes to child rearing. Um, and that requires not just time, it requires mental energy, it requires a lot of thought and and therefore when you're in that stage of life, it's not like you can say, well, okay, so it takes two hours to get the kids out and therefore I could, you know, no, once you're in that stage of life that it it it any mother can attest, I'm sure many of us who are fathers can attest to this as well, seeing not from what we do, but from seeing what our the seeing what mothers do is that it is a full-time job. Even if it doesn't even if you have another full-time job, it is a full-time job. requires your time, your energy, your emotions and therefore women are oblig are not obligated in that mitzvah in anything that is time bound including the mitzvah of dominating or the opportunity of domining with dominion. The question becomes that's great for women who are not who are who are who are in that who on that stage of life and every woman can decide how long that stage of life goes for her in terms of how long those obligations go but what about for women who are forever. Amen. Amen. Uh but what about those who feel that they're past that stage or what about people who are before that stage? What about young women who are teenagers who are not who who are no longer who are who have not yet begun that stage? Um maybe they should be obligated meaning if it's all just a practical element of needing to raise a family. So then why maybe they should not they should maybe they should take should they take advantage of the opportunity. So what's clear is and again this is again this is all clear and then we're going to see a bit of a mus in certain aspects. What is certainly clear is is that even women who are not at that stage are still putter. They're still exempt. Meaning it is no question of fundamentally even a young woman who has bach mitzvah and is not you know is not yet going to be involved in in in motherhood for for a long time still fundamentally the mitzvah is women are praish. So fundamentally they are putra just like they're not obligated in suka or they're not obligated in lava. They're obligated in many other mitzvot that are mitzvah mama even if they have not yet entered the stage of motherhood. Now why is that? Some might suggest and this is what the makava side to this understanding. Some will suggest that and this obviously highlights the difference between men and women and that again from a spiritual perspective it's not just that they can't do these things because they're busy. It could also be that the nature of women is such that they are able to connect without I'm using a phrase that is not necessarily true of everybody without needing necessarily these different mitzvot. Women have a more innate nature and an ability to connect and that might apply to fela. The argument has been made that when it comes to the world of tila, women might have might have an ability to be able to men might require that group mindset. Men might need more of the energy that comes with the tibor. Whereas for women, it's not necessarily uh um needed. They might be able to connect in a more personal way, in a more private way, even without the minan or the shul. That doesn't mean they can't. And it doesn't mean that if a woman feels that she would like to and it helps her to feel that she's discouraged from coming. But it sets the tone for our understanding that this pure is a pure that exists fundamentally and fundamentally also exists at all at all stages of life and it could be based on something less not just practical but more hushkafic in nature in terms of the different the spiritual difference between between men and women. Okay. Yes. primary care. Excellent. Excellent question. Excellent question. So what happens if the if if the husband is the priary primary caregiver of the of the family and the wife right there there there is a model where there where the where the husband is the one who stays home. So I think there's no question I could be wrong but I think there's no question that that's a more modern phenomenon. Meaning I think I could be wrong. Uh but my understanding of it is even if that is something that is done in a number of different families, I think what was generally understood in in Jewish history was that that that was less common. Doesn't mean it's wrong. I want I don't want to say it's more Oh, that's what you were talking. You're referring to that situation. Uh oh, I thought you were talking about something like the more modern more modern model of where uh Okay, fine. Okay. So So we're in agreement. We're So we're in agreement. We're in agreement that the more modern model is is something which is a little bit different and I don't I don't I I don't mean I think that's that's a separate question. You're talking about what happens if the mother is not in the picture for whatever reason a divorce or someone passed away. That's an excellent question. I don't know. I hadn't thought about it. My hunch would be that for practical reasons um if a husband is unable to go to minion and I think I've seen this meaning I've seen this more that I I would say it this way. I've I've never been involved in specific cases but I have seen that in some in my community for example fathers who are in charge they're they're less present in the minyan and things like that and I'm ass sure that's based on the fact that when you have practical reasons again I'm remembering that even for men it's whether it's a whether it's whether it's if you have practical reasons that you need to be involved I don't think that that reality would give them a blanket pure of mitzvah grand similar to women because I think the basis for that pur has also to do with the nature of men and women and not just the practical that being said a person also always has to weigh a practical needs versus versus the need for a minion. So what I'm saying is is that let's say somebody somebody's in that situation which is a great a great question. I don't think that means that he doesn't he doesn't do suka he doesn't do I don't think it means that he's no long he's now he's like a woman and therefore he's no longer obligated. I think what it means I think I think it means that when it comes to certain practical things it could be that he that his his family responsibilities will mean that he doesn't have to go to minion and I think after it's an individual basis it depends on the situation depends on the needs and he should consult with his rabbi but I think that there I would assume that most situations where a husband or a father is responsible for the family especially when it comes to practical needs of getting the family out in the morning and taking care and all that kind of stuff it probably means that he's putter from from does that mean he doesn't need to go on chabas does that mean he doesn't need to go at all those those are individual questions questions, but I would think that the practical the practical piece does come into play. Uh that's my that would be my my guess. So that's again I don't I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think I think I think it would mean I think I I think it depends on the individual situation and I it might part of it might have to do with how does he feel about it? Meaning does it bother him that he can never go to minion? Does he feel lacking in his in which case maybe he he should on Shabas I don't know impose on I think every individual will will matter. I think when it comes to the obligation to do it with opinion, he his oblig I don't again I don't I'm just my own understanding. I haven't really looked into this but my understanding would be that he probably is not obligated if he has to deal with things that have to take care of the family. Whether or not there there are times where he should rely on other family members or neighbors or this or that. That might have to deal with well what are the needs? How much does he miss it? How much does it impacting him? And and how much would it impact his family? There's there's so many factors and I think it would require an individual conversation. But I think the conversation would be different than just with women which is oh you're putter don't you know I think you're right that practically he might not need to come to to to minion most of the time but it would be a different kind of a conversation because of the difference between men and women and and and there just the overall of okay yeah I've always wondered about this new idea I've never seen it before I personally never did it the women saying kish with their parents especially when there's no boy in the family I saw two women who were finished raising their children they had husbands But they went to show me and say so it's a good it's a good question. Uh the question was asked about women saying kadesh. I I didn't look up the hakik issues. What I what I've seen it and I've heard it. Um my understanding is that it's acceptable if that's meaningful for the woman to do. There are some communities and this is more I think of a a cultural sociological question. There are some communities where they'll they're more comfortable that if a woman is saying kadesh to have a man saying it as well just for purposes of what you want you want to call it or you want whatever however you want to say it meaning there are some there are some communities that will say that that first of all if you go to most shs there's lots of people saying kades so the woman saying kades and having 10 men saying kadesh that's fine if that's meaningful for her that's what she connects to what happens if only a woman needs to say kadesh and there's no one and there's no men that need to say kadesh so there are some communities where that's fine and that's accepted I mean hologically she's not singing so I don't know the only issue could be what we would call issues of and that's more of a sociological cultural thing. There are some shoos where that wouldn't necessarily be socially accepted and and again maybe we don't do it in those shoos that's up to meaning but in those shooles I've been in the shel I was in one one time I was in the shel and we asked the r what should happen if a woman got say kish and he said then somebody else whose parents are not alive and has said kish in the past he should say kadesh as well and that way that way there's there's a man saying kottish with her for purposes of what what we're calling societal or and they sing it. You also have to have a female sing it for Oh, I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I don't I don't I don't think so. I don't think that you have to have a man saying the kadesh. I think uh there also also, by the way, I mean, again, I don't I don't get into this, but the whole idea of saying kadesh many and it used to be and the main is not that every single person needs to say kadesh. The main is that one person says kadesh for everybody. Meaning the main the straight up and the is that if let's say you have a minion of 15 aim only one says kadesh because what happens we we many of us are familiar with what happens when you have 10 different people saying kadesh this person's up to this and this person's up to that do I say I just said now do I say this well it can get confusing so some shs have a place a designated place that everyone comes together but there are there are postkim and this was the initial again we arin has become that everyone says kadesh and I think that's because it creates meaning more than anything else Um but the main was one person one of the aims says kadesh and he represents all of the aim and I've even seen this I've even seen I've even seen this rehearsal shak was mopping about this and he if he was when he was in ais if he was in a show where there were other aim saying kadesh he wouldn't say kadesh because that is the main we generally allow others too because it's it's harder it's part of their processing of the of the loss but that's more of an additional thing um okay so let's so we we've kind of laid the groundwork now the question becomes now what do we do so are is there a value to women coming and saying kadesh. Is there a value to women saying sorry not coming against saying cutters. Is there a value to women dominating with a minion got confused. So let's see a couple of the sources. So there's a there are a few different more primary sources uh that I that I wanted to explore with you that I think are important to see. The first is a gamarra a gumar. It's actually an agata story but it does seem to highlight a value to women um ding with a minion alman. There was an alman. There was a widow and maybe she was coming to say kadesh. I don't know. Doesn't say. Bisha. She would come to shul in a specific community that wasn't a little farther from her home. It wasn't the closest shul, but many of us like to go to the closest sh. That's where I go. She was going to a little farther. Every day she would go and she would d in the bish which was a little farther from her from from her house. He said to her bt like my my you know my daughter means my ma'am don't you have a shaw that's closer to you and she responded I get more if I go farther to then I get credit for traveling farther to I'd rather get that extra credit. Okay. What do we see from this? That whatever is included in domining with dominion should seem to apply to women as well. that here she was suggesting that she gets more scar for the minion. Okay. The next case, this is a chimoni. Source number six. There was one woman. She got very very old. She came in front of she said to him, "I'm too old. I'm done. I'm too old. I I I can't I I have no I have no will to live. My life is just it's just a bad life. I can't eat. I can't taste anything. I can't drink anything. I want to die. Okay. Very sad sad story. This is this is where she got to. What mitzvah do you do every day that maybe is the mitzvah that's keeping you alive? Even if I have something important to do, I make sure that all my ding is done in sh every single day. Now here we're assuming we say shul we mean shul as a as a place of not necessarily as a place of just even though we're going to see that that has value as well. So what did what did he say to him? He said, "You know what? If that's what's keeping you alive, here's my suggestion. Don't go to sh for three days and see what happens." She did it and in day three, she died. Now, again, I'm not we're not getting into the details of this story. We're not getting whether there was the right thing to do. Is that the way a rabbi should react to a woman who comes and says, is that how a rabbi should react when a woman comes come and says comes and says, "I have no will to live." Uh, we're not going to get into all of that. Okay. Okay. Exactly. Obviously, he didn't have he didn't have the modern day sensitivities. Okay. But what we see from this story, and this is the point that's important for us that some post can point to is that apparently there was a mitzvah for her to go to shul. So, we see from both of these stories. These stories are they're notic in nature. They point to a value for a woman to go to go to shul. So, now what are the what do the modern day postkim say? So again, because of time, we're just going to do I'm not we're not going to see it inside. I brought for you many different sources. There were two different sources that I two main books that I was using for this. There is one that is more of a more of a karedi book. This was written by Rabbi Minak Nissle. It's called Rig Sha. It is a book that he wrote. Nissl is a well-known lecturer and historian. Um teaches in many different places and he wrote a book many years ago. Rig is about women in he talked to many different what we would call modern postiv. These are great who are no longer alive. And he asked them all these questions about women in Fila. And one of the things he asked them about was should women be going to David with a minion and not and and and I brought for you the different sources. He quotes a few a lot of it is in the footnotes. They all both the sources one of them points to the fact that there was a famous letter that the gr that the vil nagon had written to the to to to his to his children many many years ago where in he says that women shouldn't go to dining because it leads to bad midot. Now that was back then. What are the bad measles? They're going to go they're going to start talking about what what other women are wearing. Lashinara this that. Now again again what what I'm mentioning that because it is it is an important source. Remember we've t again I'm mentioning this now. We've talked about how much of this question is going to be not just it is going to be cultural and sociological in terms of what's considered accepted in a community. the reasons why some communities say women shouldn't go to minion or go to schul. one is what what what the vagon said although it's important to know that that was written many years ago and and and and Rabbi Niss I'm bringing it because it's because it's a source that has become an important source in the karedi world but both revel yash and rshinberg said it no longer applies nowadays it no longer applies today that women are going out anyway women are very involved and you can speak lashar on the phone you don't need to go to shul to speak lashar so therefore they admit that nowadays that doesn't apply what would be other sensitivities for maybe why women shouldn't go to shul so what's quoted in the community what's quoted in again the sources is issues of issues of whether or not what the separation and things like that whether it's appropriate in general for women to be publicly again I'm bringing this because I think it's important for us to understand the different cultural and sociological questions because the issue of coming to is not simply a question as we saw there is no that says women need to go need to go to a minion it is a value and therefore in certain communities where maybe it's less accepted for women to have certain leadership roles. The nitia might be that women will not go to shul. Now what is the conclusion in the more karedi circles that I saw and I brought this for you. It seems like they say women are encouraged to go even in the circles nowadays and rashimer both said women should go to there's a value for women to go with the minion both on shabas and during the week but they both added that the minhug seems to be for women to go only on shabas and not necessarily during the week. Maybe because they're busy, maybe because of other factors that is in the moi world. Now in the world that is what we would call more and again even with that there's many different streams and many different value where women are more active, women are more present, women are more involved in the community. It goes without saying that the issue of is still a value that we care about but it's not necessarily a lack of for women to come to shul okay and therefore in our communities the only question becomes is there a value and there too I brought you malamid and many of the other postkim who say there's 100% a value for women to come to diamond with a minion that if if anything their tilos are more accepted their tilos are more valuable roami does mention the same thing that we noted in the other post which is that for for whatever reason sociologically women tend to come only on Shabas and on and maybe on and not necessarily during the week. He doesn't explain why that is. He says it could be because of schedule. It could be there's many different but but they all agree that if a woman is able to come during the week and that is something that she feels would would enhance her domining that she is encouraged to and that felah is considered to be enhanced. The one final thing that I would mention and this will close and I'll take questions separately just because I want to give you guys a break is is not is not to forget what we talked about before which is that if a woman feels that her felah would be more powerful or more meaningful if it's done in private then that is entirely appropriate meaning this is not a question of I must or I have to it's a question of there is no question that felos are that even for women are more valuable if they're with a minion but if a woman says says my nature and my essence is I want to be more private. I prefer to have that to have that as we've seen there's no obligation and therefore it is something that every woman should be able to take into account in her in terms of what she feels is most appropriate. I think in the modern times most women will say that diving in a shul helps them concentrate more creates the avira and creates all of that and I think that that's 100% valuable and valid and and then you should encourage yourself as much as you can to go to shu and even during the week and and even if the men are domining in the women's section you should kick them out. I know in my sh they have a sign that says please don't sit here during davining even during the week in case a woman wants to come into shul. So that shul should have that. I believe that they should have that for women who decide to want to. Um but again I think it is more of a personal decision as opposed to men where we encourage you you should be coming you should be you should be dominating with a minion. For women it's more because of the values that we've discussed. It's more of I think a question that each woman should should really decide for herself. There's no question that it is there's a certain power to it but you know there there are what we would call competing values. Okay, I apologize. We went a little over two-minut break. Uh, everyone have a great day.