The Image of Biblical Figures | Rabbi Shai Finkelstein (Part VI)

okay so we are we continue with ra bazak and uh the last thing we saw the last thing we saw was uh about RAB ysf K and um he was a colleague of Rashi and he talks about the best attribute or the best tool in learning The Narrative ISAT whatever is okay so now we are on the last paragraph on that pageant ah which page it looks they look all look alike um but this is the way it looks like it's really if you on the top of the page is so now at the end okay let's ask me the question anyone who has social have it now good people are holding on to it I see with two hands okay um no way no no it's more precious than diamonds oh at the end of the page when when you start with the essay of R bazak so if you turn the page it's at the end of that page the second page okay so the ability to learn in every generation to understand the in every generation and to accomplish new insights who this is probably the best expression for what for the relevancy of the Torah always renew itself it never sto not in the time of the sages and not in the Middle Ages and we continue to renew it every day every generation also develop different tools to what to to have a better understanding and enrichment of theat you know there are some generations that talk more about theik okay why this word and not that word then you have something else you have methods of what we called um also by the way just as a side note the same not the same way but some tools that are being developed in other departments you can use them for what for tanak and for other things I mean for example it's just met a side note statistics okay statistics have nothing to do with Tor necessarily but sometimes when you for example you want to be you want to um to research to research for example uh let's see uh I just saw a research interesting not my not my department and not my expertise at all but I saw someone who was researching okay and basically with the usage of statistics and other tools tools nothing to do with ch nothing to do with talm nothing to do with tanak basically what he tried to do is to try to see where was the peak of the CH in what year what's the reason for that and then he compared it to other PIM in America and why was it that MOA was becoming the posek when when he was in Russia he was epos okay you understand the difference between EPC and the POC okay so this is fascinating because he used tools that has nothing to do with shoot and and all of that but he used it in order to prove a very interesting point so basically what razak says we have different tools that are being developed in the Academia and also in in just also and um and basically they give us a better two to try to understand and with the people who are with the approach of what of the the expansion they basically fulfill rash's values that um which is to learn the T from the itself form and theim that you that you have from yourself not from yourself that you look at T and oh I'm going to decide obviously we all understand if you are a serious tanak learner what do you do first what you do in any other research you see and you learn what people before you said said after you went through everyone who is relevant then you have your own opinion you can form your own opinion you can agree you can disagree you can partially agree but you don't come and say okay I'm going to tell you how to read it and even if you have aot that no one else thought about it you also understand that what that today you came with this chat and tomorrow someone else can come up with a different chat so if you are really intellectually honest you do a research of what was before you and you understand that you are not the last word on everything okay so let's continue okay everyone agree meaning you can't just say yeah that's what I think that's what I feel that's very nice we can go to a psychologist with that but not to have a per for the narrative okay you need to have something that it's based on something based on what on the narrative itself based on another Paran based on many things agenda politic also don't give interpretation based on what on your political agenda or ideolog or even ideological anti against the tradition says I need to admit sometimes when you read biblical biblical critics you see that it's really driven by agenda as we saw on the other side as well look people will never be able to be totally clear from their own upbringing mindset education agenda but the question is is that what leads you or is that just part of your background and then he says here he says something very interesting he says you might know that this guy has an agenda political agenda that you totally disagree but it does not mean that his research and his parut is what is strafe you are basically being required to do almost like to which is Zak but may was the ofish who became a he took the core and he threw the pit not the P the P which means the fact that someone that you you you know that he or she writes within a political agenda or with a anti- religion agenda whatever it is does not mean that he or she does not have something that it's truth and it might have been even be helpful by the way I'm going to maybe shake your bubble a bit or burst your bubble a bit um we know we know that um sometimes especially uh in early years in the 10th and 11th century uh sometimes we took interpretations from the Karim the way the Karim read the PUK they adopted because it was not wrong so it does not mean because you are AAR you are immediately tra okay now we obviously have more stigmatization then accept the truth from whoever he said it okay so we have that to have this interpretation on has many ramifications on many areas one of the major points of dispute is how to approach sins of our Biblical figures because really many figures in tanak really committed sin or failed in different events he says this dispute between versus Gish you remember Gish okay is that how should we approach the of our Biblical Heroes and they used the way we look at them as a tool to what to say oh you don't know how to and you dismiss the heroes and you have no and all of that okay says he says that g you remember the Gish which basically the what no no no no no no it's not about Zionism at all it's about the approach that basically says biblical Heroes didn't commit any sins we are you are not even in a madga to judge them leave them alone and is what we spoke about before which yes they committed sins they are not exactly like us but we still need to learn from them something so he says uh he says that um gav the opposition basically portray the people of with someone with political agenda so he says that's not fair says on the contrary exactly the opposite says exactly the opposite we believe that we need to what to try to understand to create a mindset of the T not based on my mindset and my Paran but rather exactly the opposite which means I need to try to understand the world based on not to understand the based on my perspective on the world he says be honest if you come to the T without too much of an agenda you understand that our Biblical heroes are complicated not saying bad not saying great I'm just saying complicated they have different layers to them okay even if you don't know anything let's just think you come from you just came from Mars and you came to this planet okay and you read bit and then you see that Abraham is so hospitable and he's so great and at the same time he sends his son out to the desert with his mother with a little bottle of water and a piece of bread you're not going to ask yourself a question of you feed everyone else and your own son you expel and you give him a little bit of bread and one piece of and one bottle of water obviously you need to ask yourself some kind of a question you're not going to ask how come that yov says to his father if you don't ask those questions something is um I don't know maybe you read a different t or maybe I don't know what you do but you definitely need to ask a question so then he says which means basically to deviate from the truth he says exactly the opposite if you come to tanak and you put blinds on your eyes and you think all of them are so Pious and so righteous and they are so blameless and sinless you are going to at the end of the day you're going to come out with a wrong outcome this is not the place to try to understand why is it that the T describe and delineates those heroes in such a complicated way he says in short I would like just to suggest that I think that the Torah described them in such a complicated way to show that they were humans and we can learn something from them teaches us also about the responsibility that we each one of us has and also our ability to do CH us that there is no person he can be the greatest one that you are basically immune from committing sins and that you can keep yourself always sinless says the main issue don't lose sight how we approach biblical Heroes and their sins this is a subcategory the main category is what are we allowed to continue to learn which G says no and we say yes sorry not we it's not fair to say we I'm not going to include all of you I don't know what you think I okay David oh oh everyone is getting excited okay by the way did I because if not we can do it after we finish with we learned of it in B right sh we did I I thought we did ah ah okay okay okay so let's put it like that how many of you remember what we learned about theid and no I thought it I remember I thought was many years ago ago okay okay okay maybe so let's talk a little bit about okay says another point of discussion between and is the awareness of disputes among Kazan meaning this I always try to tell you that in among the shim if you hear Rabbi says the gamar holds that you need to do a b and c not I'm talking about don't believe him the talmud is a basically a book that compile many opinions different opinions from different rabbis different times about the same issue and some of them saying that from experience some of them saying that because of their interpretation to different PIM in a different way some of them has a different M from their RAB okay so the does not have one opinion about what you need to do not in but in we have framework but in definitely not he says you need to know that there is dispute between the between our sages and the and what the dispute that we have over today it's not that far from what we used to have in Generations before us basically suggests and and and and prefers to do what to take one opinion in kazal and to say Kadesh this is the only opinion and to ignore other opinions despite the fact that it might be that the other opinions might be closer to theat rather than this one and says no we need to to share all the opinions and then you it's your responsibility to choose whatever you think it's the best you hear that's the rambam the rambam says if you have a dispute between two three four and it's not about of how to do something but it's about what it's a what is Ash your mindset how you look at life or whatever it is so then you can't say meaning you cannot determine this is the only ashfa in hash and look I'm not naive I understand and I'm know little maybe little bit about education when you give too many choices to the younger generation and even to adult sometimes but especially to the younger generation it's confusing it's hard so it's easier to teach one opinion and yeah and z and everyone and that's what you are being raised with and this is the way you are educated and it's less confusing when you have too many options it's too confusing and it's hard to educate people and to teach people however first you need to be a fool to think that he or she will not discover later on in their lives that there are other opinions and if and if they are not trained to think that there is more than one opinion you are Inus that's a B I don't think it's fair I don't think it's fair to hide opinions I'm not talking about some opinions that are totally out of the and you need to understand the age and the sophistication and all of that but you cannot I think it's to minimize the Torah A and B you will be responsible that whenever that person go out to the world and he discover he or she discovers that what that there are other opinions they will blame you for that and probably they will take the other opinions over your opinion now in groups and camps that their kids don't go anywhere else but rather continue in the same isot and the same isar basically are teaching them the same thing over and over and over so you have less of concern okay because if you are in Al and they tell you that uh David for example was waiting for the get from to come okay and that's what they teach you in second grade and in third grade and then in high school and then in yes so you don't know there are any other opinions and even if you learn you don't really get there because they right so you just skip it over right but if you are you have children that go to other places to Other M and then they go to university and then they might take a you need to make them you need to prepare them you need to make them ready yes are there many cases in Russia people come about this Russ brings quite a few explanations about something say Obviously Russ wasn't himself happy an explanation maybe not with the second one that's why he brings so many and leaves to the to deci that many yeah there are many opinions about why why Rashi chose what ever me Rashi chose a b why he cut it off after the first one when in adim he gave you know three example yeah so there are there are many speculations really uh we don't know I mean I don't know okay so he continues and he says like so he's now he's going to what to illustrate his point with two examples okay so he's going to illustrate it by pointing out few things with without to go into too many details I'm just going to um highlight what is known really based on the simple understanding committed two major sins that's based on that's what that in that's what it says You Killed you the cause and the second one is you took his wife he admitted his sin and because he admitted his sin so Hashem had some mercy on him and he didn't kill him but there are some punishments about him and his descendants okay the main approach in is most of the commentators and by the way he is correct that's why I ask if anyone remembers the most of the basically blame theid for this two there is some kind of variation but the is there however there is an opinion which means the justification that Gish always like to take is she was not really a married woman because there is a a g before you go to war there is a g and also deserved death why because he was now before we go any further read the story when David was with Beva urya was still alive the entire idea of the get is that what if he does not come back because just imagine it needs to be like that why because if you tell me that every wom that her husband went to war she's basically meet it means what married that when they come back they need to do what did you see that anywhere inaz definitely not so basically it only says that in order to save her from a if don't if he does not come from the battlefield and you don't find him and you try to find him and I guess a year goes by and you don't find him so then we decided that why and if you want to tell me that if someone had an she had an affair with someone she will not be considered as what as at the time at that moment so you say so was what I don't know what's worse worse okay but whatever it is whatever it is no May if you do it retroactively it doesn't make it better okay so so that's that's one the second thing is so now you tell me that what that when later when David ordered urya to come back urya was a great Soldier and not only that okay so he said okay why he was because he said first my general you have is in the field and I understand why you can understand someone who rebel against the king but at the same time I can tell you what do you want from him he just came from the battlefield the only people he remembers now are what his generals and his Colonels and his his his soldiers and that's it that's that's what he remembers with all du respect this King sits like on on the throne and drinking coffee okay he's not with them in the battlefield so of Shalom is a okay this is someone who is a so he said you before the king no I understand I don't know what is King all about and the King it's good to be a king right you can do whatever you want and if he decided but that was only after now I'll take you in a second so the thing is basically what he says he says look most of the parim say what he committed a sin variations of sins but he committed two sins so but Gish ignores it and Bas their idea and we saw it at R desler and ra that says what we going to say a no everyone who says that David committed a sin he himself he's mistaken and why because of these two things now the question that we need to ask really is not so much about Gish about that approach we need to really ask how do they read T when when natana came to and says to him this and says and says how do they read it leave I don't know how did they read the oh so they say oh my might level in a way what I did is to explain to you how they are they are smart people okay the fact that we don't agree does not mean that they are not smart they are very smart people that led them to the idea that what not our level not your level based on his level it considered like okay very good yes so basically picks and shows who he would punish for being because when shim cursed him he let him go when said before him that's marus but the fact of the matter is he probably did this TOA because he wanted his wife correct correct I think when they say they're basically saying you don't have a right to judge you weren't there no no we we try wait wait wait wait wait let's see wait wait wait let's see [Music] okay so the already dealt with the issue how come that David was with B if she was an is at that moment the question is how was she allowed to marry him after that's the question why because that's the ramification okay if she had an affair leave alone kill her later but she's not allowed to go back to her husband and she's not allowed to be with her lover the first opinion is what raped heram which means he took her by force which is horrible okay he took her by force and she couldn't resist and therefore zash L it was not an affair okay it was not an affair so basically that's how she was allowed to what to marry him after not only that she was allowed to marry him after in a way he had he had to if she wanted the second opinion says that what that she was really you know retroactively she was and therefore she was not okay says other opinion says that was a married woman a that momentan says that David begged God to forgive him and andm says no I'm not going to forgive you not in your days I'll forgive you only in schlomo's days and why I will not forgive you because your son is going to say in a in a mish that like you are walking on fire there is no way that you are not going to what to get burned if you're going to set fire in your shirt obviously your shirt is going to what to get burned if you're going to be with a married woman you're going to get burnt but if she was a married woman oh you're asking a very good question very good question you are asking rega we are going to add to it not only that she was allowed to go back to David the king that came after David who build a mikdash was a no was didm hasem loved him we spoke about him so the idea is is that we obviously we have we have a major question so that's that he needs to to pay four times the the Sheep says says to what is no no no adultery enough not enough you will get 16 punishments or whatever it was you murdered someone mid is a little bit of mid around I think 11th century for example he understood that what even though he was an older person he was walking on the roof he was looking at the places that he shouldn't look he was attracted and he committed a sin so if an older person can do it a young man even more so so what do you see from me this is rabid he was called rabid for a reason right he was definitely not a liberal he was not a pluralistic and he was not a didn't come with a political agenda okay he was not from Gish and he was not from Gish okay he was just a good Jew okay in Germany and basically he looked at the and he says it's come to teach you something it's come to teach you that you should never say I'm not going to commit what a sin a sin because you can commit a sin you know is says what the mishna says remember that that you shouldn't on Shabbat you shouldn't read learn next to a candle because you what you're going to what to tilt a candle in order to see more he says no I'm going to learn and I'm not going to and obviously what he do he did it and he says I need to bring a big cow for sounds very similar to right right I will have more women more gold more horses and I will not Dev we know exactly what happen learned a different lesson he learned from that that you should not have a wonderful life when your friends are in this is unbelievable basically says it says David is a king and yeah I understand he did not want to join the war that his that he sent his people he was also older and they asked him stay home but stay home and and Dav say to he say to heal him compose some yeah um do mishpat take care of the people don't go on your balcony looking for women and which by the way I would just say one thing and which I still after so many years I I still don't get exactly why her mik was on the roof says that she was bathing in a mik okay but so at least he knew that she was not n right so what you have to understand real estate you never buy a building for the you don't know what someone else build they built her house was the highest one built a higher one interesting I don't know but the thing is is that look if we what says is that instead of being he basically looked for pleasures and that led him to what to he calls a what he knew it and by the way the T says that he knew it he asked people about her and they told her they told him a b and he says it also add a different crime and what was the crime to kill her husband and now we are in the 15th century in Spain I will not tolerate the idea to be lenient with David and I'm not going to deny the simple truth the narrative says you are he himself says so I am going to say that what I'm I'm better than and he says it's better for me to say he committed a sin he admitted the sin he repented he went through toua theem atoned for it who David oh first child died first child died and also a Shalom the story with a Shalom was probably as a result of it as well but never never admitted right right that's true right it's enough I think with just few ex few of those examples says this approach that basically understand that David committed really a sin and also explains that that we have lessons that we can learn from it theel this is what an ancient approach it's not a new approach you know some of the accusations is oh this is a new approach approach you liberal modern that's not modern and liberal this is what I'm just repeating we going to the the sources this approach basically denies their students from having any access to to their opinions yeah now let's play a game yeah why not we can play a game if I teach you that Beva was not a married woman and that um and and when it says it's in his M what are your lessons from the story I don't I'm not sure you are not in that madrea okay what different levels for different people and what are the and what are the the day-to-day lessons I think it's going to lead to confusion and also when God forbid God forbid and I'm not saying that it but when God forbid there is something that it's totally unappropriate that's going on there is some kind of a justification because this person is on such a high madga maybe it's a different thing it's very dangerous now let's go back now let's go to the other approach we need to be intellectually honest and we also need to be careful there is danger in every approach now let's play the game I'm telling you that the might be might be etish how exactly she was allowed to be back with him little bit problematic it's complicated God forgave him half partially but not totally and now what are the lessons that you can have oh okay a even David did chuva he can fail and he was able to overcome this by the embarrassment and everyone knew that this was terrible embarrassment and everyone knew about him so he did it third you know you need to be careful where you're looking D um I what else um you need to when you send people to war you can't uh you can't don't bathe on the roof um yeah um or make sure that your neighbors don't build higher than you right so uh so also you see all sorts of lessons but what's the danger with all the respect was written before he did or it was after he was a know with okay so you start in a way to look at David with some kind of a diminished look and this is also can be can lead you to s David Jakob this is why you need to have obviously a good teacher but also to have a balance in your life and to understand that with all the respect that yes you have a brain and you have a a way to analyze things you also need to understand that at the end of the day he still the he's still the one who wrote he's still the one and he doesn't say sh you know say okay so they made it to T and we didn't but they now maybe when if we would be in their time we will make it too I hope it's not the villains but rather than the the righteous people but whatever it is we need to understand that yes there are people like us and that's their greatness that's their greatness when you know that a person like that could reach his Madre to fail in that Madre and to be able to continue to overcome it I know for me it's a great example yes another the other the other uh went CL manyo and after they never spoke I'm sitting listening but you know what the truth I been asked her check they never spoke before the they never spoke after the person presented because I never spoke after means there was a bad problem in their relationship and so you have to be very careful right this is also true and I will say another thing that if you raise that issue is sometimes we and it's a it's it's very attractive to do it but you need to be very careful in doing it is to do a psychological analysis to families in tanak and to individuals in tanak based on modern psychology no no I'm I'm not joking it's modern psychology and assumptions that we have might be very different than what they had in the ancient time um you know Fathers and Sons didn't talk if there was no need there is no sim you know let's have what is Sim like you take your child you know each child separate you go to a coffee or you go a trip so you have a quality time to speak to them there's no such a thing okay not in Jewish families and not in non-jewish families okay there is no such a thing it's like you know trying to judge love and Romans Romans was only in the 18th century okay the first time I found in the chuva that there is something to do with love was the 14th century the rashba in Spain and be and that they wanted to cancel shim because the granddaughter told her grandfather I really don't like the guy that's the first Chua I found does not mean that does not exist anything else but I did a little bit of a research that love was a component in the decision before that and love love love yes Jews and non-jews I need a woman to cook and to bake and to do laundry and to have children and if she's not good for children this is really not good and uh and I need financial stability that's it had a thousand of them so he had no lack of means of money and there is a this is just the love between and this is a very romantic descript does not mean that there was no love I'm saying that love was not the reason to get married and the fact that for example Rifka and didn't talk does not mean anything about their love okay the only time that they really talk was when she gave him an ultimatum since then right so so the idea is is that it doesn't reflect necessarily on their love or lack of Love shim is a very poetic and a very love song this is not the love of what we [Music] call no no the the description is physicality but it's not the love that we talk about no the couple love each other there there's more desire I will call it you with me that's why kazal wanted to what they didn't know what to do with ch it was a problem until they came along and they says a between I'll clarify my point I think this is not clear what I'm saying is that people didn't get married for love so for what arrang Arrangements exact it was between Jews and between the Jewish communities and and the non-jewish communities same thing the idea is that the idea is is that what what I wanted to say that to take psychology modern psychology and to try to dress it on ancient cultures Z again so that's what I'm saying sometimes you can hear many RAB you know they're making like almost a psychological analysis to what's going on between your and his brothers and between the and it's it's it's nice you can learn lessons but you need to be very careful not to determine that they did something wrong based on Modern psychology that's what that's that's basically was my point yes um when I've heard classes from people like from very say remember what even if they don't use that right it's true okay um I'm not here next week we'll be here B the following week hold on we have one more page