The Image of Biblical Figures By Rabbi Shai Finkelstein (Part IV)

no one has okay anyone would like to share with someone who does not have I would share mine I just have one so okay uh first the sh is sponsored for the 2024 2025 academic here which comes to an end uh in a week and families in memory of okay so we continue with our uh with our subject uh regarding the biblical figures and we are on page no page so where it says bazak okay ra and ra bazak the common denominator is that there is a RAV before each one of the names but they are very different each one of them represents a different hashkafa different isot a lot in common but also a lot that is not that much in common so this pmus this this debate over how to look at biblical figures uh is something that uh came to really to the news as you see it's it's a newspaper um and basically they uh took our debate and debated it uh in public how to view biblical figures how to view their deficiencies and everything we spoke about but they added obviously some Modern uh components to it so first a um says the following oh I need to have one more introduction one small introduction we will talk about what we say tan what is tanak like you read tanak and it's the same height of your eyes you don't need to raise your eyes which means don't look at them like our Angels don't lower your eyes which means don't obviously look at them as someone who is less than you but be but the problem is that be is what some people can raise their eyes some people can lowerer their eyes and some people can close their eyes Okay so this is basically the debate so he says still lives in our generation so he says that looking at biblical figures meaning not to raise your eyes to them it will what it will cause a damage in your ability to spiritually Elevate yourself in order to criticize them you yourself need to be pure holy and With No Agenda which means no one can criticize them okay so you remember ofla after the sh okay so now we have ra who has very strong opinion about it which says like that so that's the question should we present the biblical figures to our students to our young students to our adult students to basically present them as people who are elevated from everyone else they are not in the same mad like anyone else or People Like Us with struggles with difficulties with challenges with ups and [Music] downs so if we will look at them as us like us so we can obviously be inspired so he says like that okay and should I translate you want me to get upset okay I will I will obviously translate um sorry sorry um basically says there are not People Like Us sounds very familiar right for and by lowering them and by viewing them as us that's not how we're going to be spiritually inspired the are like the Chariot God's Chariot they are the ones who carry God's name the divine presence dwells dwells in them in their actions in their personality in their soul in their Spirit their limbs and organs it's not by coincidence himself they will be the founders of the Jewish people K that we will start our Jewish history with what with giants people who are really not like us that's him saying I'm just translating now I will tell you my comments to the later of all Universe obviously could create this world from what from bottom up which means from a very low level people and then to what to climb the mountain and to reach highest the highest people or the most spiritual people but that's not what God did but rather God decreed but God decreed that what that ab and yob going to be what those giants Davido meaning I have and since them we in a way inherited some of these spiritual characteristics and some of their unique personalities and that was imbued in us this is a national treasure for us meaning the founders of our nation were giants we are not but but we have little bit of their DNA and this DNA is part of who we are so therefore when we fall and when we make a mistake we have a way back those giants whatever so they what they gave us they shared with us some of their DNA that will help us to what to stand up again after we do something wrong obviously every human being might might betray his own nature that's how decreed it which means even a Jew committed a sin he can also what go back do Chua there are still people H so now he says there are still people at the beginning he says not that they are not people at all there are not People Like Us now he says there are people not like us now the r says what that even you can find deficiencies even with the na canu sorry but it doesn't mean that now after he committed the sin he's like us who you know what is planet different planet okay when you hear says to it's not a compliment okay so it means like where are you coming from from Mars like okay so um says yeah he has deficiencies but it's not the same deficien deficiencies like us which means it's it's becoming very similar to whater says without quoting him yes they they achieve they be model they also started simple and Achieve greatness in the same way we could aspire to that you can also start the only one that I can agree with you is Abraham not and not Jakob so your question is basically is being zoomed only on Abraham and for that you need to see I mean the maharal talks a lot a lot about that Abraham in a way started fresh from 70 or 40 or three it depends yeah it depends okay made a mistake that's what the r says he was angry on the nation listen to me Rebels so he says in terms of the name he is angry I'm angry so Mo and I are best bodies right so he says no we are angry about silly things isain was angry why because he was so upset that the spiritual level of the Jewish people is not up to par with what he thought and that's why he was so angry this is not the same anger is it anger is anger now there are different reasons to be angry I can be angry that someone took my power in space and I can be angry about someone who does not fulfill his potential and I can be angry with the decisions that are being made by uh whoever but it's all has a name of what of anger different levels for sure and I will ask and I will tell you that everyone who is angry and is not like just an angry person but if you ask him why were you angry and he will give you the reason he would think that what that this is the most important reason to be angry for okay so the thing is basically what and I'm not analyzing it yet but basically what a says he says yes he also was angry but because the reason was different so it was a spiritual anger and we don't have spiritual anger okay yes they are giants and they have deficiencies but the deficiencies is or lamp special kind of deficiencies because they are special kind of people there are special kind of deficiencies why the did not reveal its reasons and says what I will have a lot of women and I will not commit sins and I will have a lot of forces obviously he did so he says so you learn three things was one of the greatest even if you are very great you are um also susceptible for fa failures and because of his sins he's not going to what to stop being a giant the says even though is God's friend andem loves him and everything he committed what he committed a sin but he's still what he's still great now there's no problem to say that right right all right and we spoke about it a little bit previous weeks which means basically what he says what does he say he says there are humans there are special humans and special humans has special deficiencies and despite their deficiencies they are still what great and special okay so in a way he does not say that they are angels he's careful he's not saying that he understand that we need to learn from them however he says you cannot look at them like you they are not you they are whatever that means he doesn't want to say that that's how he's careful he doesn't want to say superum he doesn't want to say Angels but he doesn't want to say just what regular people so we need to analyze a little bit more what's the definition yes no no no no when they commit a ver you they need to do CH finish as regular people but he still retains his weight so that to me that because he's so great he allowed more leeway and as well more leeway init a than we as regular people are I thought you would ask something little different maybe you mean that I will maybe let me rephrase your question for a second in a way I maybe that's what you said when I read it I was like one second if hasem decreed that they are going to be which means it was it was already predetermined that they are going to be right which means even if they will commit a sin they will continue to remain whatam so I didn't look at that so much as oh they can do whatever they want because they did not know that but from God's perspective in a way whatever they're going to do they will remain and if I will do what did I probably will never make it right yeah so so that will be the problem yes do you remember where you saw it or no okay so we need to see the source I I don't know um but obviously there are some many I mean there are many issues from what he says in terms of okay but let's just let's try to finish it and then to reanalyze it so we should be praised and we should be happy that what that we started we initi our people our nation was initiated by so he says if they are like us you will not be encouraged to what to lift your eyes you will not be encouraged to see them as models you will not be able to be spiritually inspired this is not the way you need to what to immediately the beginning to look up to them and they are on like a pedestal to some extent and this is the way you need to teach this is the way you need to learn T he says you remember says that what that exactly the opposite they made mistakes they are like us and they were able to what to become to become he says that's true that's what he said but you know what a you don't need to accept his per B you are not so what I'm sure I'm not I guess what he wants to claim is he says it what he's allowed to say you are not necessarily allowed to say it and his entire interpretation to the Torah is filled with respect and fear from the biblical figures but from time to time you have a little crumb of criticism interpretation I so resentful first and foremost not that it's going to God forbid to lower it to lower do you know that the entire per on of was what he gave to women in the mid in yeah to the women he spoke with him about the he spoke about modern lives in Germany that's what he spoke anyone who knows anything about he was stuck between what between two main two the very reform and the Very and he tried to create some kind of what we call T okay to try to it's not modern Orthodoxy and it's not religious Zionism M I'm not sure that was a Zionist at all no so but the idea is that he tried to merge to intertwine the modern world and the Torah and how to create talk to his people to tell them that there is obviously they need to be rooted in Tora but modern world is not a terrible thing there is obviously many others that has nothing to do if he was a ga Kad whatever he says it very clearly and it's not crumbs it's not like a per here and a per there m it's a big okay when you look at I did okay and I will say I I went over all his per and all the I don't think it's perim I'm not saying that that's the only thing he did definitely not a b with all the respect if he is allowed to say it it's there he wrote it it's for us to learn from it he didn't say this is my opinion it's only my opinion and therefore you can never use it and just know this is my opinion and it's not your opinion and I'm allowed to say it and you not allowed to say it never exactly the oppos talk to the people his exactly on the I said before for was the women in the sh it was not to like a don't get off but like a great Scholars who learn in Yeshiva all day long it was to the people and then that he gave to the to his community so I can be nice to many other things that he wrote this one historically it's not correct that's a b with all the respect for how can you say that he's allowed to say it and you are not allowed to say it but he a Tana is aora is m is what he's a wonderful Rabbi great Rabbi from the 19th century and he's not considered as aana or he a like many others he might be more learned and even though he was so learned he still said what that they are like us and they made and they made sins and they commit sins and they did CH and they became and that's how you learn from them so this one is obviously something that uh I couldn't uh I couldn't hold on until the end yes just don't time but just to hear um who are examples of people who said I'm saying this but they'll never repeat it because it's just me there's only thing that I know in the tal is that what we called but that's about this is not interpretation which means you can ask me a question and I can tell you look this is the but don't say it in the marketplace why because there are some people there that if they would hear that raai says it's allowed to do this they are going to what to drive on Shabbat okay so you are a scholar so I can tell you the but but I I'm asking you don't tell it to the people in the marketplace but that's I can understand you don't want people to what toer not F on because of what I said but here wrote it to the masses it was not only for exactly the opposite he wrote it to the masses he didn't write it to to so what I'm saying is that what he said I don't know where he has this and and and that's what I'm saying to you one in the tal that talks about but there is no such a thing that a rabbi will tell his talid I'm allowed to say it you're not allowed to say it there's no there's not such a thing that I know of if you know if you have have an example the only one that I said in the or you keep it here in the mid that's what you can do but but that's it okay but between the no such a thing and even among I think we spoke about it a bit and many others says told I am met whatever the truth is yeah with the tremendous respect and you can take another Rion to say okay I'm holding like him and many other and disagreeing with this made in his on the sometimes against the again with tremendous cavod and everything but to and but here no one will say that I'm not allowed to disagree with if I have Gooding we learn that we can all be emotional it doesn't say that was look at that we all have potential I don't know uh the question here is very good it says even the rambam says no one can be a Nai like Moshe but everyone can be like Moshe is a and you can be like what do you mean you can be like according to the when he taught the class mosu came to the class and had no clue what's flying and M says to you give the through me give it to don't don't tell me how to run my world okay so basically what do we see we see can be mhu definitely you can be and maybe to some extent it it address your he was not born mosh Renu okay he was born any other child he was says that when she open up the little basket there is a light and yeah wonderful however he was not born mosh Renu he had to make some decisions to become mosha renu and by the way when he started the M sayon what Ison like in training likeon okay they are not yet soldiers that's what the mid says until they became what the ultimate Prophet the ultimate okay so let's go back no same uh same thing very similar to R Desa he represents as I said before in the introduction he and r bazak are on a very different uh planeta and uh ra is more what we call today not master you you know what it means right okay so uh which means it's more we will call it more to the right I don't like those definitions because everyone says he's in the center right so um but it's definitely a little bit more um yeah yeah yeah and especially in a reaction to as I said also I think last week or two weeks ago I think it's 30 years people here might remember better than me um there was a revolution led by the and in Reading T learning T teaching tanak and with that came some kind of a phenomena of not biblical criticism but using sometimes biblical criticism but also looking at biblical figures more in a modern way and in a way to protect the children and the education ra and many others had to react and again like in any other phenomena obviously there is the middle way and then there are the extremist okay that yeah I mean you can take a very modern look on one of the biblical figures and to get to some outcomes that are terrible even according to someone who is very modern and can tolerate a lot but there are certain things that you will not be able to tolerate and then you will ask me meaning everyone needs to have limits the question is where do you want to put okay now there are conditions if you want to show criticism or to give criticism you have there are some conditions that you need to to follow in order to criticize anyone and especially you need to be pure holy uh God-fearing person and without any agenda in my humble opinion I fit like if you think you can do it so you are arant so that's better like I don't understand it I mean a where do you get it from okay we know that there is no rebuke so much anymore because there is no one who can be but criticism is not criticism a here it's more in the intellectual realm okay it's in in the analytic realm you look you want to tell me that now there is no Bor on talmud on negotiation in the T theak in the tal now we need to stop thinking we need to stop analyzing things we need to stop critical to be to have a critical mind which just need to accept it the way it is they say in Hebrew little strange and then he says what by the way I think he criticized the other opinion don't you think I brought him first but he he's reacting okay so he's criticizing other phenomenas so I guess he fits um I think the last thing he wanted to be called is Adam kados okay he wanted to be an intellectual he wanted to be a scholar he wanted to be someone who can inspire people but his aspirations were not necessarily I think to be holy okay from what you read from him that's a he wanted to talk about K not being Kad that's a b he just bring but do you remember the ran the ran says what same thing mid same thing so it's not only the thing is and this is a very it's it's a tool that sometimes in the movement and in the Kali movement you have is you need to be kados you need to be T and obviously if you are honest obviously I'm not kadosh and T I'm not holy and pure so therefore is what I can do that but there are only those people and and what what are we and who who says that they are they might act in but to say that someone is kados is very different you some what I'm saying meaning I can behave or I can try to carry myself with Kusa with Holiness but to tell me that I am I am kadosh that's um wonderful if you feel like that I don't know what to tell you okay so let's let's just continue I I'll hold on for the questions let's just continue a little bit more our sages were pure hearted and if they criticize those giants we can accept it you see now he's taking it to what to The Other Extreme he says Ah if you tell me that David and me are the same David committed a sin with a married woman I never did it ah who needs to lift his eyes to whom David needs to come here to learn from me that's the extreme way I don't think anyone says it I think it's a it's a I need to choose my words carefully I think this is a bit of uh not a bit this is this is exaggeration and extremism to take an approach and I I don't I don't know it might exist that's not mean that it don't not exist people who seriously learn tanak and will say after they learned the story of David my God I'm going to Omit him from any place in daving yes I'm not going to DAV for Servant your mashia I don't think he should be included in tanak and he takes a white out tipex okay and start erasing every time in t that it says David name because he committed a sin with a married woman and I did not with all due respect I think this is M exaggeration yes no no no not never it's it's in the Mish says that maybe he will not have yeah which means what they struggled with him they struggled with him this is the this is not rash this is not this is a simple mishna when the mishna says that they thought about what take his and and to hide it in a in a cemetery okay to be to make it g or not to even allow him quote unquote to go to it means what the rabis read tanak and they struggled with it and then they decided you know what no he did a b and c terrible but he did e f d n m and God allowed him to continue to be a king okay how do we deal with it this is not criticism that's how what do we do with someone that we are being challenged with and always always with all due respect to all of us here all of us we didn't make it to our names are not there okay they are so I'm not saying that they are angels they are very unique people they overcame something or they were chosen to be something settled I don't know don't have any problems with it yes son split the it was already splitted God told uh splitted again split thank you I just made up a word uh thanks for being understanding uh don't criticize me be careful so um so the thing is that uh um Hashem already told the navi that uh he will let schlomo Reign Over the entire am Israel but after that because of what schlomo did the nation will be split yeah so it's not really in a way didn't have any choice he made a terrible mistake by being so um stubborn and not to alleviate the taxation but uh that was his that was like quote unquote the reason but he he was not the cause yes cin and my husb lady cousin on this note says my husband said to her that the gdan in Europe made a very big mistake when they told the Jews not to leave Europe and to go to either Israel or the United States she said absolutely not the gdan never made a mistake never made a mistake and it was better to have gone to as these are her words so help me God which even to say it whatever better to G to Ash than to go to any of the traits in the medas so you talk about someone who ad to the concept of not criticizing today alol so also don't um there I can D me I can maybe come and say look you know they were so anti-zionist and they didn't see any future in the land of Israel in America so said you know what let's just stay here and things will change okay hopefully it will change for the better even though obviously we know that some of those who said don't leave they left and that's what I said before before I don't know how many weeks we are learning this thing but part of what rer had to deal with was this lack of faith in the because how can you explain that that you told us not to leave you yourself left and now also what you told us was wrong so there is the idea what was basically developed what we called T which means which means basically what the Rabbi says goes and in a way there is um I I gave about it once if not I can give it here uh but this is something very very interesting that was obviously developed lately but I don't want to talk about other let's just go back to our issue okay okay uh short and ran both M show name right so ran says I've sinned and that's why we went down to M he gives different reasons but says anybody who says so you have two which one am I supposed to follow if I say let's say I were living at the time or the and they would have both pass it how do I say none of them makes ack that's the idea and I think so this is the Beauty and the asked it the asked the question how what should I do what does it mean you should remember it you don't know what is in Hebrew but you remember it because you were born when there was still a phone like that I remember that too okay I was not born into a cell phone okay I was born I remember the one with theug okay AET is the one that you put to your ear okay this the thing okay or if you really remember the one that you do that you remember that okay so this is called AET and the AET is something that you listen carefully a say listen to what they say and then make a decision it's on you it's on you and it's okay and you know what every year you can come up with a new Theory I love especially seph bit every time I prepare a every Das is different and it might contradict what I said last here now no one remembers it besides me so I'm not worried but the thing is is that I am happy that I contradicted myself why it means what that I saw a new thing I grew my perspective change I read the Paran in a different way I read a new Paran that I didn't know about him or her the idea is is that I don't know who comes before me I don't like to come to a shi with yellow papers that I had for 10 years okay I think someone told me salic would always come with a new um what do you call it a paper pad whatever it is and when they ask him why don't you use what you said last year I think he almost answer I didn't eat what I ate last year right this is the idea the idea is you come new and this is not this is this is interpretation okay so we have framework we have framework you can say there is the majority you follow the majority sometimes you can you can rely on A and B and C in a framework of it's much easier in a way that's why it's so difficult with and you know when you do chuv you don't do chv only onim you also do CH on what on which are more difficult much more difficult because it's not tangible it's not tangible and you need to be truly honest with yourself that what that you should that you did something wrong with your thoughts and to to Cha for it so what I'm saying is yeah it's a struggle and you know what Judaism is not an island of stability okay and calmness think everyone knows that but it gives you tremendous Hope and Faith and that's part of being religious person it's not just to go to ask yourself a question and you know what today is a different day than yesterday and today you know what I do believe that you know what I think that the that the the soldiers of King David gave oh that's the the reason why because I'm now dealing with the in a year from now when I'm dealing with I would say that no I think that had a different problem yes the right way to be able to uh open up to something in that American culture to the old people not to talk to you jobs so complicated you know terms of say it was didn't work there that was the main that's got you okay no no no so I think I just I don't know if people heard you so enough yeah ah okay so two things so naali first naali said that when he grew up he says conservatism tried to create this harmony let's call it yeah between uh between religion and and modernity I hope I understood you correctly and basically the question is always you what's the balance like what's the balance what's the fine line that you go between these two as we know you know I'm not going to give now a shi on all the streams of Judaism but we know that reform and conservatives are not working the fastest growing movement in America is the unaffiliated after that it's Orthodoxy okay yeah that's the that's the problem okay unaffiliated okay but but definitely in terms of growing in terms of people it's Orthodoxy that was basically eulogized in the 40s in the 50s okay thought people thought that it's gone why part of it rituals part of it the commitment there's no question about it okay so but we are not doing an analysis for I'm not criticizing anyone after what we read then the question is also was what's the difference what is the line between biblical criticism or critical critical analysis of the biblical figures and questions just question to understand the text and the behaviors and the actions very good and the answer is I don't know okay we need we need to we need to move forward a bit we need to move forward a bit so he is talking about he's the one to criticize and for their lack of understanding of Education this is a must read piece of you looking at me like so look at that when the the youth grew ASA became a hunter and yov was was whatever so says what does it mean only when they grew up you saw such a so says they were Twins and and made a terrible mistake he says much terrible educational mistake they thought they are twins so we're going to dress them like alike and we're going to teach them alike and it says that was a mistake he says you should teach each one of them he says da by teaching as what they taught yob he created resentment to it they had to teach asav how to be a Jewish Hunter there is such a thing but not but not what but not to teach him how to be a that was not his personality so they created resentment now by the way we know we have in yes even in yes not everyone can learn so if you teach them and you drill it into him they will hate it so now many yes are proud to say that what they have different ex what do you call it tracks right Nott why do you think in the modern times we have so many for the Americans for the Israelis all sorts of things okay we do katif every Tuesday and we do every Monday and we do only Torah yes and and and why because we understand it's not one size fits all that's what says about so he takes this one and he says you are teaching you are like an educator you think that they can come and learn from you that's a terrible mistake that's second time criticism on the a now continues this is not how you learn you forget who you're talking about or to or about really he likes get plan he says is's a man but he's a person but he's from a different planet that's basically saying he's not like you he might be an angel in my opin the gar in Shabbat says that if they him are like children of angels we are like people and if they are like people we are like donkeys now okay now I look at that and I am really not impressed and why why I'm not impressed because there are many many opinions in the town regarding early generations and and uh and and current generations and each one of them and we told I told you so many times if you hear a Rabbi says to you and I'm sorry the tal says and I'm not talking about even with definitely with hash the tal says that's what you need to think you need to raise your hand and say Rabbi do you say it based on learning the entire talud and this is the only opinion if he says yes check it out if he says no this is just one opinion accept it because the talmud is definitely a a composition of so many different opinions different people different surroundings different societies different understandings of the situation at hand I will give you one just as a a dma and that we will conclude we'll go but I will tell you there is one Su I think I thought it you once about yes is and is I think so if there is a ma to is or not so there is a debate in the yes or so some of the rabbis of the says yes which means you are under the control of the ma and sometimes you are what you are unlucky and therefore the who lived in the end of the 13th century beginning of the 14th century in provance what they called he says those said yes but but they didn't really believe in what they said they just said it out of their experience they were poor they didn't have a position what they should have and they had troubles with their wife and their children so everything in their life was what uh schles okay so they says okay if we are probably yes is and this is why we are not not God is like a direct Providence over us there is but there is a mazal and we basically was pred predetermined for what for poverty [Music] and that's which means what sometimes when Aur said something he says it not because it's to this is what this is understanding of his life experiences and that's okay did you ask yourself why in the town you have all sorts of things that has nothing nothing to do with and I'm not talking about the demons that the rambam says that you should not pay attention to it talking about just behaviors how to behave what to eat how to deal with people nothing to do M nothing to do with you ask yourself why we have it in the town I guess not now it's the right time to ask yourself that question okay because there are there is a a variety of opinions and sometimes this why don't don't we reject minority opinion why rabuda Ani decided to put a minority opinion in the mishna answer is because there is going to be a time that you might need it so you need to know that it exists there's nothing wrong with it what I'm saying is and and with that I will end is that I understand the only thing I understand I think is where coming from like with raesa but uh when you take a very extreme in my opinion my opinion extreme opinion of R and to try to portray them the way he portrays them and and to and to say that you are never allowed to criticize them it's only twice already okay twice it's not not even twice and I think I found more than just twice um I think it's in a way you create a world of people who just going to what to obey it and to read and now I just want to ask one more question and with that I'm ending now it sounds like a rabbi said this is the last thing already three times so how should I read T so when I read that Nat comes to David and says to him the Mas of katash the poor guy with a little lamb and David says so how should I read it How am I'm about to learn it a b when I learn and I go to T and there is a discussion upon discussion in different time inti places in the Shas regarding what exactly David did should I ignore should I say that they try to understand in his madga because none of the answers given in the town would says what it says my interpretation is that if you look at David only through the prism of that without looking at it his entire life you are to you are definitely to a this is is my but again this is my interpretation might be different interpretations but I think this is the idea I don't understand how can you read the way he suggested unless you are like a tiki he you could just repeat the sentences and uh this is wonderful life for people who are again you see I'm not condemning if it's good if it works for for people La I think that it does not encourage you to be a deep thinker which I would encourage people people to do okay