The Image of Biblical Figures By Rabbi Shai Finkelstein (Part III)

so we continue with our um I don't know attempt to understand R desla and his uh perspective on uh the sins of biblical figures and uh we spoke about the idea that uh Rabbi desler is we need to understand the background we need to understand the story behind it he's uh in a very uh serious Junction in Jewish history he after the Sha the faith in the rabbis is basically um jeopardized and he needs to strengthen and Empower a small group of people who he what we will call today and he needs to create some kind of a has that defend them and defend their decisions and also to try to understand that are mentioned in the T and to show how when the Torah says someone doesn't really mean like the way we will view it but rather as something that in his madrea you know it Con either s something else but it's really not so we spoke the last thing we spoke about wasen uh which uh we I guess uh dedicated uh much time to try to understand R D's uh opinion so now take a look at page 162 it's like on the top of the page still I know it sounds strange we don't have 160 Pages here but it's the on the page the number is okay okay so everyone got it everyone got it okay good okay so look at not 162 but like 163 don't don't turn the page just on the page go to the left here and like here okay so you go on that page go down to the second paragraph from the Endo you see okay so so um first a little bit of an introduction um and if anyone wants to hear more about SCH I don't know if I can do that I guess I can't it's my sure I can do whatever I want um tomorrow night I'm speaking at about scho uh again about the expectations and the disappointments from scho but it will be in Hebrew uh right schol for their community so says if you say that committed a sin you are again you are mistaken like the same thing with r but States what it says clearly in the T that says that his heart was not as full as David why because his wives deviated his heart or they caused his heart to deviate and by the way and I know he ignores it there is another that says it's the same place and you know we all understand when you want to get a point you're not necessarily going to quote everything else but the gamar says that when schl had some kind of a prediction that that what will say about him in tanak he says that he would prefer to be meaning to clean up what gutters rather than that the tanak will say about him that his heart was deviated that he that he deviated from the right path okay but does not quote it quote it but rather he says what he brings the that says but he didn't which means really didn't really was an idol worshipper but in his madrea when he allowed them to do whatever they want it's like that he was an idol worshiper I guess did not have any problems with him violating the negative commandment in the okay so I guess he ignored it and I guess the ignored it as well I just wanted to by the way telling you two things a I'm not against R I think he has tremendous meaning to many things in this in this subject I might disagree a b we need to also understand something which is I think important is that there is no such a thing the's opinion is the talmud is a compilation of what of different opinions different opinions different times different backgrounds different surroundings and different AIMS in terms of what do they want to accomplish so you can't have someone say it's not even in it's not true you have debates and then you have at the end you have some kind of but that's it but there is no such a thing especially in hash this is the only opinion so it might be different opinions different times but nevertheless when it comes to schl he wants to prove again that if you think that SCH was really an idol worshiper you are you are wrong okay now now that's going to be a tough one and when regarding to obviously there it's a little bit uh difficult to explain um I think we did it here I think we we learn yeah we learn about David and B I think we did it about David and Bacha it was a long one and we spoke about the idea that uh the Tor the tanak describes David when he gets the rebuke fromi about the of the Mas of says what I committed sin now look you know what I'll just do it for two minutes when we look at the story with David Anda and so we know what the tanak says first and foremost Nat comes to David and he says to him gives him this Mas about this lamb and then David says okay so first and foremost obviously a b we know also that hem says to David David was shal his heart was full there is no justification to what he did with he basically sent urya to his death okay and what about Beva she was a married woman right so how do we explain that so we have many explanations for example she there was a g there was a G alaf right there was a conditional get which some soldiers even today but definitely back then they will write a get and will say if I don't come back from the war so the minute before I die you will be what divorced why would they do that because they didn't want her to be auna okay good now this is a obviously but there is a problem with it what's the problem the problem is that the get is what the get said the condition says what if I don't come back so first and foremost when urya came back it was after David was with Beva which means not only that he was alive we know for sure that he was alive how do we know he came back unless it's a clone it's the same guy so if he's there so there is no condition in the gate and there's no condition in the G so she's what she's married so right unless you want to tell me that no it's a continual condition so even if he comes for an after you know you know what is an after like for four hours okay and then he goes back still the condition is there and and then he died so retroactively she was divorced yeah but it says only if he die in war not that if he was sent to die okay so we obviously have a problem with that as well and then we have ah look if this entire thing with Bacha was terrible how come that AEM allow B to have whom schl scho is the king oh this is a proof that what that probably this I am willing to accept it but don't tell that what that he didn't commit any sins okay this is one of the issues that we have here which means what do you want to say that there was no sin at all or there was no sin that we can understand you want to say there was a sin there was a transgression it was horrible but the power is it is that that he did chuva and if he did chuva it means what that everyone else can do Chu meaning God does not close the doors for B Chu in a way it's more powerful now with we also understand why there is no way to do Chua why he's dead he's dead G you can't bring him back so there is no way to do any Chua on it with there was might be a way to do Chua so says so he takes this opinion that why that there was a conditional get so he wants to claim that what that the condition in the G is such is that now let me take a step back there is a discussion which means if a soldier before he goes to war he writes a condition in the G and says if I don't come back you will be divorced so now is she married or not it depends the best answer if someone if a RAB ask you a question best way to look smart to say the debate okay okay then you will be almost sure that you are correct so and if not you can have a m on that that on that answer too so the thing is like that basically that's what the ask what's her status in between because we don't know if your husband is dead or or not so the gamar says ACC one is which means what like half pregnant what does that mean she is she is married she's considered a married woman or she's not considered as a married woman if someone makes give her Kush is she's mes or not if someone go God for has an affair with her so she's a married woman who has an affair and she has a child is a m or not oh if it's true no no no no he's the second child that's after they got married in in the right way the first one died the first child died yeah yeah me a oh that's what ra holds like the opinion that says that it's a mish get now I don't understand if it's a mish and she is not married why natana says to David what did you do and David says soest says no this is exactly the point in David's Mila in his madrea it was considered as a sin because he was with who with a someone that basically was married she's not really married but she's married yes now I did it in a dramatic way just to send you a a message I don't know just say I understand why he doesn't want to say that David am sinned with a married woman because most of us will not do that so David a one who composed no we know human nature human nature they do it so David a who composed who became the King this is our aspiration for mashiah so but in a way I will tell you that I'm not that surprised with all the respect how um how do we have that's from Yehuda and Tamal is that the cleanest way to bring children home no and then root and boas is much I mean it's complicated uh root came from where from the moabites moabites are the daughters of FL okay so that's the first one even the first Moab without any bu this is for my father so that's a better way to do it yeah yeah with she married so you ask yourself we did find in our Jewish uh lineage and history certain things that are surprising so why do I want to run away from what seems to be theat and even if I can I can make it delicate really I can make it delicate maybe she was a and is a king so he thinks he can do whatever he want but said I can understand it and then he did chuva also by the way his chuva and I saw a few hands so I'll get to you in a second by the way if you remember the story she was pregnant buta was pregnant because of theid and the son was very sick and what did he do when he was sick he DAV for him he cried and all of that when he died he stopped and everyone asked like what are you doing it's exactly the opposite and he says when he was still alive I tried to bring him back when he's dead he's dead but if you look at it from a political view the should probably D for him to die because this son was basically the A and B that was a a constant reminder of the Shand but David is doing exactly the opposite which means he davens for the child to let's say if the child was alive everyone will call him what or he will not be able to get married and it will be a constant Thor in David's eyes and that you see how the chuva the David was sincere so in my opinion when I read the narrative I dka I might take the opinion that he she was a sa and David saw her and he was a king and he will do whatever he wants yeah and there was a moment of weakness on his part and therefore after he realized he made a mistake he did CH yes no that's for sure that's one the question is what about the second one and in addition if you already mentioned I'm sorry but if you already mentioned that there is another sin that he did that everyone comment that that was a sin which was what to count the people you remember to count the people and the Jews were punished there was a plague for three days there was a plague gave him choices that's what we say every day in the Phil that was when says you know what you're going to give whatever plague you want I'm whatever you want to punish me but he committed another sin okay yes that he had he knew be together had but he acted hly so there is a mid that says before he ate he ate a fruit before it was uh ried which this is wonderful but it means what that he still ate something that was not belong to him at that moment yes yes so he says according to the opinion that says that it was M get they will need to get married after that's also why we have a problem with this condition meaning even today we have a problem with this condition because what does it mean a at the meantime and B when they come back to they need because if you tell me that when they come back they need to marry her it means that if someone during the war gave her K so what she mes so we have too many too many complications hierarchically anyone else yes alling to ER that's the point of R especially not everyone as we saw before not everyone agreeing with that everyone understand that we are not talking about just you and me maybe you is different but definitely me um but R desler trying not only to do that he's trying to say that the that is mentioned is not really the according to what you think which means when it says regarding these biblical figures does not mean what you think and this is the nobility in his analysis so we said in the beginning he is trying to build up trust that was part of it and also to create what we call he was one of the leading voices in creating what we call today D to translate T which means whatever the Rabbi says to you it can be what kind of cucumber to buy or who to marry or what car to buy or what to invest and in and has you need to listen to him and why is that that's part of it was a reaction and B when you are a very small group and you have so many influencers not talking about the Instagram the other influences especially in the 50s and the 60s you need to create this is the model whatever he says goes so who came up with this idea it's very interesting I will tell you just as a side note because I gave a class about it once about the Tor I don't know if here but I gave it in the shoe um it's that it's interesting so he so he says something interesting he says I heard that some are asking different rabbis in things that are nothing to do with he says what does that mean since when we do things like that interesting however when we go to Raba that's exactly what Raba tried to do yeah to understand that somebody s does Chu the sin is erased like he never did it or he did it and then he did Chu that's a that's a very very good question with tremendous debate over it when you do chuva that sometimes the T says that things you even did intentionally becomes some people say it's become like and some people say that you can totally erase it and some people can say no that it's still in the past but you can derive from it lessons to do something in the future so choose whatever you want okay his sin was like deep deep in his heart now this is a very interesting proof in order to be intellectually honest and not only to analyze or to criticize you also need to look at the proofs one of the suim thata brings in order to substantiate his theory that David really didn't do anything wrong between you say he says says which means only to you God I committed the sin so it's not between but rather why because look in the eyes of the masses when David took do you think they cared if she was half married half not married there was a get there was not a get what do you think will be the headline in the newspapers was killed but cheva was taken to David's houseace Z that's what it will say and therefore it created what sh so comes to and says what is evil in your eyes a city I committed a sin between but however even that proof which is an interesting one it's a it's even a strong one to say but you can also say that look what do you think David is going to say he already knows that he committed the sin between him and and now he says to hasem also I also committed a sin between me and you but the word might suggest a different interpretation okay say there is something even deeper than that even that sin was not according to his now there is another statement thear which is very interesting and I want you to analyze this statement the statement in thear says in that which means he was not a person that will do something like that but why did he do that in order to show Chua says the same thing about am am is was not really in a Madre to do but they did it in order to show that you can do CH now no no this something you become more critical than me that that's scary know I hope I'm not such a good teacher so let's let's think about it first and foremost let's go one by one first thing this statement basically says what that a sin was committed and it was committed in order to show that if someone else does it there is a way to go back there is a way to CH okay wonderful B it says that in a way the was taken away from them their free will the ability to choose was taken away from you why because you are not in that madrea to to sleep with a married woman but in a way you were pushed to do it and then the consequence will be what that you will do chuva and you will teach everyone else that if they will do it not by force even by choice there is always a way to do chuva now this is a bit of a problem and I will tell you that the midash is also goes along this those lines in one midash the midash says that when Yehuda and Tamar when he saw Tamar when she pretended to be someone else in a way the angel pushed Yehuda to her Corner which which is interesting why do I say interesting because you are basically telling me that you are taking one of the fundamentals the essential principles of human beings which is and it was taken away so Yuda will be with Tamar I can tell you one thing from the conversation between Yuda and Tamar it doesn't seem to be that Yehuda was forced to be with her okay and uh and it doesn't seem to be any external forces pushing Yehuda to do what he did so the thing is is that this statement is a very interesting statement and again you see from the multiple statement and some of them that he does not quote is that obviously the rabbis struggled with the issue of David and bacheva yes different the first one really but here in terms when compare with we see that did not never said here with we do so is even though we heard it before in t the other have said and but with in terms of the ultimate and the continuation is that possi why it's again saying is the paradig of it might be it's a good it's a good point it seems to be that the gar goes out of its way in a way to clear clear his name and to make sure that he's that he is okay I almost positive that there was um an agenda to make sure that David's name is as clear as we can by the way not only by kaz's agenda it already began where inim when you read Chronicles A and B it's very favorable to Mal David now because we are getting to kanuka we know how kazal criticize whom because they took away David's and they took it to thems which was not accepted by kazal especially not the ramban the rambam had some more tolerance towards it but if you read the ramban at the end of when yob says to um to yehud basically you say that that that the ran says that because the took the crown and they became kings that that was the reason for their downfall okay so I think there is no question that David besides being a Biblical figure also some someone that is a king and also Asim like who doesn't know okay and you want to tell me that that the healing was composed by someone like that so therefore you need to try to what to justify him yes yes D did not really view what he did as a sin which is why nasan had to give him a Mas to show that he sined I think without the Mas he would not have come to the realization oh you oh okay so you're saying did not come along after the night right he didn't wake up in the morning it says oops he had that Natan needs to come and tell him that's true now I will tell you two things we just don't know Kings but real Kings and that was always a struggle between the prophet and the King most of the Kings did not like prophets many of those prophets found themselves what dead or in prison okay elah you want the list go to T okay and basically to stand up against a king and to tell him you are wrong you need to have a tremendous courage and also that the king needs to be open for criticism so I don't think that David thought that he made a mistake at the beginning right I agree I think he says I'm the king I can do whatever I want how do I know that open up Al and per if I'm not mistaken and Shu says to the people you want the king the I'm just telling you what's the least of the things that he can do to you he can take your children he can take your Fields he can take your property he can take your wives he can do whatever he wants that's what you want okay so in a way theid and this is not a foreign thing you can take whoever woman you want Z so comes to him and gives him the Mas and immediately understand that you know there is I mean the way he reacts to the masal is very harsh because it's thy for thy you pay what double or four times you don't call for his death soav was very moved and then when says to him you are the man so obviously realized he did something wrong so you can ask me how did he thought he didn't know that he did something wrong I guess he didn't he didn't do something wrong so now um okay so that's now now turn the page it's time to turn the page well not to turn the page just flip it okay the page starts with 164 the first word is matu we found a beautiful thing we should understand it um clearly okay was a prophet because he heard God's voice like Adam when did he hear God's voice when hasem said where's your brother before before before before before he killed heaven when he brought the the sacrifice says to him says why are you so upset why don't I'm upset my My Sacrifice was rejected but you don't need to be that upset next time don't worry don't bring something so lousy and uh next time you know you always have a second chance don't be mad and K obviously didn't listen Okay so so now he's asking a good question he says I don't understand before the murder so hasem spoke to K after K murdered his own brother Hashem continue to what to talk to him how come that he didn't lose his ability to be a prophet a prophet can be a murderer so he says basically wants to uh draw a concl a a a distinction between the early generations and the and the current Generations in terms of our mot our levels our spiritual levels and it derives from this question now how can you explain that hasem speaks to what to a murderer so he says like that so we found in's [Music] writing so the in y say say meaning the early Generations their sins was revealed and also their end was revealed and their Good Deeds are hidden and their sins are exposed why because their heart was good but us current Generations exactly the opposite our sins are hidden our Good Deeds are exposed and we try to hide our sins and not to reveal them what does that mean so [Music] he says we have tremendous knowledge about hasem about the Torah today especially with computers and everything you know we we know probably in terms of knowledge or access to knowledge more than anyone in previous generations we can have all together on the same screen and we can make an analysis and synopsis and all of that we in a way have more knowledge so therefore you would think that with more knowledge we will be more righteous righteous more but he says but actually we're not exactly so basically it says there is a disconnect between what we know and what we do we might know more than previous generations but in terms of not of of not being able to stand up against the not only that we are not as strong as they used to be we also in a way justify because we know so much much and as I said every so am I'm allowed to do it on Shabbat I'm sure there is an opinion that says yes right somewhere I'll find it after Shabbat so the thing is is that even though we have more knowledge we have in a way more less commitment to what to stand up against and because we already succumbed or or we submitted ourselves to yet once or twice in it becomes what so then we don't even feel the conflict between what we know and what we do early Generations were not like that they might know knew less but everything they knew infiltrate their hearts so therefore they attach themselves to God by the way as a side note M side note the abarbanel who lived in the 15th century in Spain and he was expelled and all of that he in his writings he says that most of the Jews who were simple Jews did not convert to Christianity in 1492 and dka the sophisticated Jews many of them convert that's interesting as we say meaning because they are so sophisticated they were able to justify it no not exactly Trinity yes Trinity at home I'll light candles but the simple Jews said okay we are not converting if we are expelled expelled and if we are die we die we believe in one God we don't know how to uh to manipulate the issue so he says uh so if you tell me that they glue themselves to their creator meaning the early generations and they were attached to God so how can you explain what that they committed sins so he says because there is a principle rule when we fight evil inclination more righteous you are than the other guy the is going to to be stronger because you always need to have a free choice and if the cannot win or cannot confront you by deceiving which means he wants to say that in the early Generations they will confront them directly meaning not like in a deception like what we do what he does to us that we think that we are doing a Mitzvah they knew that what they do is wrong but the was so strong that they in a way lost the battle and then he says I will say my comments about it in a minute and it's all in order to maintain the what the free choice in Balance meaning if I am so Pious the obviously needs to be what stronger and then he says um which means immediately after the left they realized immediately that they did what that they did something wrong and they didn't try to what to suar Cod oh it's no no no it was a and therefore they immediately did they didn't let it linger and then to forget about it they immediately addressed it and then he says but we the current Generations that we always are so terrible so now after we committed the sin we justify so if we justify it obviously we don't see it as a sin and if we don't see it as a sin we cannot do CH okay so then he says it sounds perfect but we're going to break it so so because we don't know that we committed a sin obviously we cannot what end it we cannot do ch so when kind committed a sin so he did it like the like the early Generations which means meaning confronted him and he submitted himself to it says K immediately did chuva and we see that Noah that was born from wife no's wife that was born from Ken so they immediately rejuvenated the dewal and uh and you see that he obviously was worthy to do you know what what do you think I'm not going to give you my opinion yet and whoever they were okay okay very good one one aspect Z you all good with that yes justification human beings I'm not saying they were on higher level and the whole the whole history begin gracious almost like the lesson for us everyone of the US in their were totally dysfunctional so if you're dysfunctional don't feel so bad because they weren't such good parents and they weren't okay very good we spoke about that I think before you joined we spoke about that little bit idea ran midashim and others basically says what no no they did something wrong and we're not going to cover it but you can learn from what they did um and grow grow from me yes oh good so now we have a concept of what we call the generations incline de decline however we also have a that says in which means we all like to have to be alist it's called in Hebrew Nostalgia okay we all like Nostalgia oh everyone was religious in Europe nonsense nonsense it's not true there was a concentration of Many religious Pious good Jews but most of them were not look at the 18th century and the 19th century and look at the numbers and the names and you will understand that they were not that religious oh the a yeah the environment of religion was in the walls of the house for that by the way I can agree a little bit more um there is a very very famous article by Rapture I I can't say the word rapture I don't know meaning like Chev Chev what is CH Rapture okay and and something like that whatever he speaks about the Rapture thank you he thinks he he speaks about the idea of um the transformation of the Jewish community that from back then in Europe that most of the mothers didn't walk and you could feel the Judaism in the house rather than to the modern Orthodox communities that you know both parents work and you know sometimes you are raised by the n and the N is not necessarily I mean she might be a Pious lady but she's not from our tribe and all of that and basically you need to have a different educational system so it's it's a fascinating article um there are some Revis revisions to what he says whatever but the idea is to think that you know early Generations was were much better than us in their DNA I can agree with the in terms of knowledge yes um not talking about information talking about knowledge the r already talks about it also for example the r in in he says that back then a judge could judge without witnesses witnesses he can Jud he can listen to you he can listen to her and then he judge by himself no Witnesses and also he can count on a woman or a child who tells him look you know this guy is a liar and if he trust the child or the woman it's fine don't get too excited okay by the way he learns it from whom froml made this decision based on what on he he she said and he she says and that he made the decision no Witnesses no nothing that's why the people were scared from his wisdom now however says but today not are not that great and the D are not that great so we are going to use what Witnesses and all of it however he still says he says if the Dian trusts someone who tells him something and he knows that the two guys who claim are liars says he needs tolep the de somehow and to convince claimers to admit that they are liars okay so somehow but I understand that I have no problems with that how you Justified that good very good questions question says we know in the for example am cannot dispute a Tana righton will not dispute a gon so first and foremost we know that there are many exceptions to it um and also it depends how do you define yourself for example the rambam who lived in the 12th century which obviously will bring him into the category of Rishon he many times in disputes whom the gon why because the ram calls himself gone why because who is the one to determine when a time period is over meaning ra ra ra all of them did they know that they are amim right raban lived his life as raban now he obviously he knew there is a rebi there was ran gel there was RAB mayor right especially RAB picks on him because he died when he was 92 years old he died in 278 so he saw D see he saw them he was a child but he saw them so he knows what greatness is but even raban and definitely the first generation for they did not see so much the line between them and the they also looked at the mishna as something that it's not Holy One of the examples are what does that mean the mishna is missing something and let me fill it up which means I can do it meaning uh uh what do you call it interfering with with the code of the mishna you need to see yourself as someone who who can do it now I agree we do have in those status however read the of to and look at and look at and many others who says look we definitely have tremendous respect but if I think that my is better and I can find this in other I as can rely on those and debate this for example in his debated so you can say those are the exceptions or you can say those are the exceptions because most of the times we agree with them and but because if not you are basically what's the you know there always what they call Mid the slippery slope you know there's slippery slope on both ends which means if you tell me that that's it it's stuck so cannot be viable meaning if I'm going to say something that they didn't say I'm going to dispute them and I can't do that so what will be now how do you you do it what's the framework that you use not like marish I think like I feel like I I'm talking about what you bring you bring you bring other opinions that's what I think he says the tweet and that's was our tradition always that then he brings up platon Plato he says that's what brings ler um so the idea is you are correct there is tremendous respect to early Generations however if there is something that we need to debate will debate now H okay no next week we'll do something one second I think I have a one minute um oh one more thing you know what for next week think about itest talks about the fact that K did chuva that K did chuva where exactly ah says many commentators look at that as G a now I'm giving you a different reading and that's what the mid says three biblical figures came with a conspiracy one of them is K I'll tell you about the other two maybe next time K comes to Hashem and says what you're going to punish me but you can't carry on my sin you're going to kill me because of what I did what you can't forgive me and hasem says I'll forgive you why because the original punishment was what after the chuva it's only what NAD that's it there's no na which means the chuva did something but it was a chuva of pushing God to the corner which means what if you can't forgive me you are not a true God okay I'll give it to you now just for the minute I'm so I'm sorry I just need to finish it and then run to who else did the same thing same chuva very similar chuva a king you close to very close to him like one generation after him like his son man manha when they put him in a Boiling Pot he to all the idols and then he says oh you know what I remember my father taught me that when I'm in troubles I should reach out to God so he says to God God if you are the true God you would listen to me and you will save me so the ministering Angel says to God and says what are you doing don't listen to him obviously you know he that's not chuva and Hashem says what if I'm not going to listen to him B CH will say oh God does not listen to us so what did he do he dug a tunnel whatever that means okay and he brought Mas underneath his holy throne and he gave him accepted his chva and brought him back to his kingdom oh according to rabuda according to T why because it says because the and one of the says no so now that's was so we have K and there is one more and even he's not mentioned there but I will say I need to run to also did to hem something very similar imal Mountain he basically says to Hashem what you must show that I am the true prophet and you are the true God you must accept the sacrifice you didn't give God too much of Choice same thing with elah when he did the drought okay because you remember the story says to him you think that really that Kel's children died because he buil Jericho says and he says to him are you kidding me you know yosua says Moshe says that what that there is going to be a drought if we will worship idols and we worship idols everywhere soah says to Hashem what you need to show him that when you say something you mean it so you need to bring it rout and he bred rout so the idea is Shabbat Shalom we'll see you next week