The Day That the News of the First Churban Reached Bavel | Rabbi Anthony Manning

good morning everybody and welcome um as you can hear unfortunately I have a little bit of a bad throat um it's getting over a cold I feel barash a lot better but my voice is still uh suffering a little bit my experience of these things is either it'll get a lot better over the next half hour or it'll get a lot worse but uh if necessary we'll have a slightly shorter Shear but hopefully we'll we'll still get our uh we still get our money's worth as it were um I'd like to just uh thank our sponsors three sponsors today first of all the sherim through the 2025 Academic Year are sponsored U nishas bras brandid and zelik Bel Ben calman um and second of all two very specific sponsorships for today um the sherim this morning all the morning shearim is sponsored by Ellie and Adel freed wild to commemorate the Y side of adel's Father ra abah yob thank you very much to the Freeds always good to see you thank you for the sponsor ship and also the shear specifically today is sponsored by Phil cinsky we the family cinsky over there it's good to see you all um well not all the grandchildren but like a good number of youm uh in loving memory Phil's wife AIG ala basai Arin savinski um who is yite is January the 8 8 tet and uh I was thinking of like counseling today because of my throat but I thought you know something there's all these sponsorships it would be a bigal to cancel um and uh I think we'll we'll make it through so it should be an Aliyah for all the nas that we've mentioned but eem okay now there might be a slight overlap here with Rabbi Adler but I don't think much because I'd like to take a few different angles on this as I'm sure you're all aware oh yes another reminder please from Miriam to please turn your phones off as I'm sure you're all aware that we're coming up to aarit or should I actually say more specifically the fast of tavit because the fast of tavit is not as we'll see necessarily aarav our men get to fast on aarav but really the idea is that there's a fast in a there's a fast in tamos there's a fast in tavid and there's a fast in Tish and the actual dates may vary but let's just remind oursel exactly what is what is going on here so I brought you some dates at the very beginning when nebuchad netar assumed the Throne of Babel conquered Judea um exiled as we read in the the beginning of together with the leading Scholars including Mor and that was also in tavid on the first of tavid that that Exile which now of course is Kaneka so what was originally a day of morning on the first of tavid because of that Exile has now been over overcome by kekah but for our purposes the most important is neuch kadeta Lay Siege to Jerusalem on the tth of Tav and eventually reaches the walls on the 9th of tamos on the ninth of tamos now the walls of the second basa mikdash were breached by the Romans on the 17th of tamos so the question is why do we fast on the 17th and not the 9th is it just because it was more recent and in our memory we're still 2,000 years ago but we'll see exactly as we come later on that the date is not necessarily the key thing so let's remind ourselves of some of the key SES now number one again months are key the key is the only way to get these fasts of these different months to be Feast to be days of is by it's only if we fix the problems of a fairness of justice and of Shalom of peace and of course there's the famous question which was raised to zakari you know when the people he actually records there when the people said look we've we've come back already from Babel now we're rebuilding the B mikdash do we still need to keep these fast do we still need to have these fasts aren't we part of the solution now and Zakaria tells them no what are you talking about unless you fix the specific societal problem then you haven't fixed the issue if you can tell me that we've returned restored Society then you can talk about um not having the fast and in fact the rash deals with this issue as well number two he calls them zakar calls them a fast day how can that be there shom in the Jewish people what's shom in the Jewish people so here you see the rash says is Dre that the Jews are securely living in their own land securely whether you need a temple or not is a good question but you need the Jews living securely in their own land maybe they two the two things are the same then their days of if there's destruction complete destruction then there shom if we're living in a kind of limbo where we can't say we live in a time of shalom but we can't say we live in the time of the two are too extreme then so we get an option fast become optional fasts is that true as well says the TSH is quite different because so many bad things happened on Tish it doesn't have the same status of uh it could be an obligatory fast or a voluntary fast TSH is always an oblig fast and actually the rambam says and I'm not your time to go into it today that even during the second B mik they still fasted on TSH which actually sounds that way from the mishna it says that they sent out from the mikdash when they were M even for Tish for the fast of Tish so it sounds like they kept Tish but it seems like the other fasts like AAR Tavis in a time like we live in today which I think we clearly we don't live in a time of shom but we don't live in a time of schmad schmad is too extreme so should be optional one way or the other so if you look in the the three in mag Mish so the rambam who ruled that we have to keep these fasts explains now the is the is that we keep all of these four fasts I call says for all intents of purpose these fasts are compulsory until we get to the ban B okay fine in terms of the actual origin of this particular fast there are two different that we need to look at we one is inim and one is in so have a look at number four in in the ninth year it's good to remind ourselves of exactly how this happened in the ninth year of the reign of King in the month of the 10th month on the 10th of the month and his army came against and he Camp camped against and he built a Siege Tower around the city the city was under siege for two years until the 11th year of and on the nth of the month this is the month of the the famine was so uh intense in the town they didn't have any bread eventually The Siege succeeded the walls were breached and the forces of escaped run away Through The Secret Gate which was in the King's Garden and the Babylonians were surrounding the city but the S escaped down towards the ARA into the Jordan Valley beautiful so the Persians the Babylonians I should say chased the M down into the valley you they CAU up with him in and all his forces basically all melted away and they captured the king They seized the king they brought him up to NE and they they put him on on trial in particularly grueling end's Sons were slaughtered in front of his eyes and then his eyes were gouged [Music] out and they brought him in in irons in chained up if you like into B and that that's where the 10th of tavid if you like figures but there's another Point here which I think is the key issue as to why we have this unusual situation that the tenth of tavid has a stricture that no other fast has which is certainly know the reic fast which is we fast even on chabas this year um Asar bavis falls on a Friday and we will be fasting into shabas now this happens every few years it happens every seven or eight years that this falls on a Friday when was the last time this happened last year it's extremely unusual that a sar bavius falls on a Friday two years in a row it last happened back in the 1970s when Nixon was in office it'll next happen in the 2070s when who knows whether it'll even be an office oh Trump you reckon be 115 so it it hasn't happened for quite some time but the reason this happens meaning every other fast which Falls could potentially fall on a Friday or shabas it's always pushed off it's a Sunday so you look what it say number five at the same time as we read these that we've just read that neet besieged the town on the 10th of TI 10th of T excuse me look at number five says God's word came to me on this ninth year of's re the same the same time on the 10th of the month of Tav lay it said the following write down make a note this very day this this very day the king of B has approached and again he repeats and the Rak explains how this works if you look here in number six he gets this he's in B already he was taken away to B with he gets this on the 10th of the same day that the attacks beses and he tells him write this down and show it to all the people in Exile and when they later find and the the criers come from that's indeed the day that it happened this will give a stle that he wrote this down at the other side of Asia as it were over in Babel the ex day when this happened he won't listen anymore to and this this uh this the importance of this day that it was set it was recorded if you like in two different places in the same way on the same day the that's why it has this special status if you look in the BET number seven the BET says an interesting thing he says G the rambam says no we push off any fast that comes on shabas we push it off the Sunday the ab says is different from every other even if it fell on shabas which by the way it can't fall on chabas in our fixed calendar but it can fall on Friday you don't push it off you don't push it off because it says on it like it doesn't come on Shabbat but even if it did you would fast on chabas like and he writes also does sometimes fall on Friday we fast on Friday and other fast never fall on a Friday um what is the unique power here which is very interesting interesting the idea is that the 10th of Taves has a special status almost like that of Tish itself the Jewish people were meant to be exiled on The Temper of tabus but in fact there was a special given there was a chance they were given an extra chance look here at the uh the um sourcer number eight look at the midash number eight see how it works sorry the great great good was done together with the Jewish people to the Jewish people by God Kate said how does that work on on the 10th of Tavis they were meant to be exiled from has a special status what did God do he said if they have to go out now in in January but s they'll die from the cold m what did he do it was was a it was a that God did to us that he took us out in the summer so we could walk out of the city in the summer we didn't have to walk out of the city in the middle of the winter but actually the B rebi says an interesting thing that it says that nebuchad came close but is also says the the idea that he he only came close he was is also to support as well um and therefore he says the idea that The Siege of Jerusalem had the potential to actually be it saving but if the people had only done shua but they didn't and they had this kind of in between period from the tenth of tavid for two more years okay fine um let's uh let's just pop over the page my voice is not getting much better but we'll see we'll see we'll see we'll see we'll try and keep it going now I can't suck and speak at the same time no it could it could end it could end in a very uh have I tried it might be my last share oh there is I I thank you should I try I don't know how this is going to work I don't you might need a doctor in the house actually no something think I'm going to have this afterward I don't trust myself thank you for the what's that I've got two cups of hot water here I'm drinking I'm drinking I've got lots of people looking after me my mother will be very pleased okay the idea of the tenth of tavid being almost like Tish itself a day uh and and some says it's the day on which mashiah could have been born just like tab itself that's why it has this special St the the the idea of turning these these fast days into a is as I said at the beginning dependent entirely on the idea of have a look in number 12 and we'll see what we need to do what maybe our our task is in order to achieve this at number 12 this was again famous from from chapter n of says to G the put a t on the foreheads of the of ink God is going to let loose their forces of Destruction in the in the and Gabriel has to put a Tav now what is a Tav a Tav is a marker but actually inav in the original script not the script we use today A T is like an X that's how it looks it doesn't look like a t now so an x marks the spot put put them on the forehead and put a red mark on the on the foreheads of the R so that they so that the forces of Destruction the of Destruction we know who they are and we'll destroy them so it's very interesting Source here the forces of accusation went to they said why are you saving this group and you're not saving that group what's the difference what are you talking about the people with the with the black Mar the they don't deserve to die and the other guys are so so the the the accusing Angel says yeah but these could have done something about it they could have done Outreach they could have they could have made an effort they could have tried to influence the other people and they didn't try so so God says to him God says yeah but I know that even if they tried it wouldn't have helped and then the last line the last the word goes to the category of so he said the accusing angel said even if you know they didn't know they didn't have an excuse they didn't get involved in Outreach and social justice in trying to influence others they ignore them they just get separated from the rash and they they should have tried they could have tried this idea of AR of AR and there a maybe a slight difference between these two ideas the idea that the the tior the famous you know ACM of the ti being sad they have to be together and in fact in number 13 the mid says when Esther says to you have to gather together all the Jews all the Jews and you see from here the most important thing about fast day is the Jews coming together that's the key that's what we should be doing on a fast day make a fast says in call stop to everything gather everybody everything together and that's why the said the word s is from is connected with the word suit the word suit is a junction why is this the word suit a junction because the word s is a braid where two things become entwined one with the other that's why we call a tomit at tomit because it's all these sort of Road spaghetti of Roads coming all together so say the same thing applies for the Tom the purpose of the psalm is to bring everybody together to connect everybody to knit everybody together and therefore whatever we can do on the psalm to to be the Jewish people is definitely the the Mitzvah of the day okay so I can a little bit on the sares but actually there are two other fasts like I mentioned last week which I wanted on a little bit more uh today as well so have a look with me about the eighth of Tavis last week we spoke about the ninth of Tavis but let's talk about the eighth of tavus and this I think you'll find is very interesting so um I read for you last week that there is this list of uh what's called sikim the the extra fasts that certain sikim used to keep and it wasn't just the 10th of Tav it was the eighth and the 9th and the 10th so you look at number 15 so the B writes these are the days you have to fast on the eighth is the is the story of toi the king what was the story of Tomi the king so the records it number 16av on the eth of Tavis the Torah was translated into Greek there was Darkness on the world for three days we talked a little bit about that in the previous shum also there's a hint there to the idea of a three day fast as the eth the n9th and the 10th but also darkness comes in in 3day in 3day units as we see in sh so this story of the Torah being translated into Greek is actually very uh is much uh broader than I think people realize we see it appears in the gamorra it appears in the gamarra in in Milla we see in the gar M Sim in number 17 s is probably a slightly later Source than the gar Milla but we originally also see it in two much earlier sources Pho Pho who was a a hellenized Greek sort of influenced Jew a religiously observant Jew living in Alexandria the uh in the first century CE he also writes the story of uh the uh translation of the Torah into Greek this is hundreds and hundreds of years before the gamar records it h and he includes the ideas that we're going to see in a minute that they put people in different rooms and they all came to the same answers but he he painted as a very positive outcome he says because the Greeks really admired the laws of the Jews they forget Pho a lot more learning has gone into Pho recently I don't know if you've ever studied any phos it's got a very interesting very different take ones Etc but Pho understood that the Mitzvah were Universal and that if non-jews understood the Mitzvah they would be a universal law For All Mankind they're all rational and you can understand what they are and therefore the idea of translating tan to Greek foro was a was a great Sim and he talks about it being a a great occasion not like the gamor in a minute which we'll see gives it a very negative spin or at least one part of it he even says and I brought you in the appendix you don't need to look at it for now I brought you a long uh excerpt from Pho of Alexandria he says every year on the island of feros which don't forget back in those days there was the I think the lighthouse was on faros right the Seven Wonders of the World it was the library of Alexander Andrew which was one of the wonders of the world and the liest on Farris says every year he said on Farris there was a national camping holiday where people would go and have picnics to celebrate the translation of the Torah into Greek all those years before Jews would go non-jews would go he said it was a very uh a very uh very exciting holiday he had but I even brought you an earlier Source still than that that this story of the translation of the Torah into Greek is actually recorded in the second century second late third early 2nd Century BCE is something called the letter of aristas aristas excuse me which I brought you at the back as well aristas sorry I the first time the letter of arist to philocrates you can see that in there as well you can read that how they translated it Etc but they have a different spin on it as then the gor we're going to see number 17 have a look in number 17 there's a story of Five Elders that they translated the Torah into Greek for and that day was was was difficult for the Jewish people like the day that they created the agle this is the key here because you can't translate the Torah properly why why can't you translate the Torah on the contrary Greek a Torah written in Greek is a kosher sa Torah we talked about this a couple of weeks ago it's the whole torist written Nation Greek it's kosher is a scroll so why can't you translate the T into Greek what's it not what's not possible seems to have been an impossible task and it shouldn't have been done but then people don't realize this there's a second story of not the first one they brought in these 72 elders and they put them in 72 different rooms but like and he didn't tell them what he brought them in for okay and then he went into each room afterwards and told them this is what you're here to do write down the Torah of your of your master into Greek and each one of them had it's very interesting this this account is not described negative terms in the same way as the first one each of them had they all made the same alterations okay and they wrote each one wrote a were 13 specific things that they changed and if you're interested in looking at the 13 I'm not going to do them now but uh I wrote down uh in uh number six all 13 changes that they made and you can see for yourself all changes that they made so that people wouldn't be mistaken and uh and understand certain suum in a way which could have been heretical now what's interesting as far as I'm concerned is the Septuagint which is the Greek translation of the Torah does not have these 13 changes in it which is very interesting so when we talk about the tagum shim the translation of the T into Greek there was clearly more than one translation going on even in this sourcer number 17 we've seen two different stories of translation one was with five Elders one was with 72 elders and the Septuagint which we later see is the Greek translation of the Torah that everybody was using there's a debate as to whether Pho was even even had access to Hebrew maybe he only learned the Torah in Greek and commented on the Tor in Greek but it seems to be a slightly different translation and also it was only thees it wasn't the whole thing so you can you can uh you can look into that in your own time as to exactly what translations with which and how that works but the idea of translating the Torah as being such a negative thing requires a little bit of thought on our part because if you look back and ra yon iitz makes this point if you look at number 18 originally when MOS wrot down the Torah it says you write it down on the stones they wrote These Stones like like the of Rosetta Stone at the beginning when they went into the uh the land of Israel they put these Stones up you write down all the words of the Torah artive what does it mean artive Rashi says artive in 70 different languages so the Torah from the very beginning was meant to be translated it was translated into the 70 languag or at least kazal understood that this would be a positive thing to do to translate the Torah into 70 different languages so why are we so upset about the Torah being translated into Greek so it's interesting some of the MIM say that it wasn't in itself a bad thing it was it it was the potential to be a bad thing says also Lai says this it was like the day that they made the agle not the day that they worshiped the agle he says the day that they made the agel nothing had happened yet they just made it it was the next day M like Aon says we're going to worship agel so just translating the Torah into Greek in and of itself is not necessarily a problem it's question is what are people going to do with it and one of the main problems and this is true of of anyone who's ever you know done any in-depth skills learning when somebody translates the words of the booking for for you they take away all the Contours of the uh of the text all the things that you would like ah why is it written in this way why is it written in this way intertextual ideas between one area of and another area of or whatever um they they they've all been flattened out because someone's already done the work for you and in that sense the translation um is uh misleading I heard there was an expression in in Italian now I'm going to get it wrong now it's something like like trut TR that all translations are traitors okay um and therefore we have to understand that the translation itself is taking away a very significant part of what was the original kak of the Torah itself and I brought you on number 19 just go to page five a source that I don't always bring I don't often bring of elov in the sa so he writes a beautiful Marshall here number 19 what is this like like a lion that you capture from the wild and you put in a zoo before the lion was captured Everybody's scared of the lion everybody's running from The Lion now who made seats in everyone comes and looks at the lion you know the lion neb is in a glass cage and all the kids put that put their hands on the cage and bang on the cage to be to the lion you know it's a terrible thing people say I thought lines were scary lines are not scary look it's right here when it's in the hands of the Jewish people and the the people who interpret the Torah can come to it and and reveal the multi layered reality the Torah in original language everybody is in awe of the Torah and and there's a great nervousness at misinterpreting it because you see you have to prove it from the text and even a nonew who wants to learn Tor they have to come to they have to learn it there and they have to speak Hebrew but once you lock the Torah up if you like Torah you lock it this beautiful idea of you you you you trap it in a Greek language you've taken all of the out of the Torah anyone who wants to can come and peer in an inappropriate way and anyone who wants to misinterpret Torah B can come and miss and separate the Torah and I brought you a couple of very important uh I think ideas underneath here which is which goes even deeper according to the Greeks the truth was in the idea it was in the form okay the idea is true the words are just a means of transmitting the idea from my head into your head which is actually a very clever thing I can be thinking of tree right now and I want you to be thinking of a tree so I say the word tree and now magically this image which is in my mind is magically in your mind it's an unbelievable thing if you think about it just by wobbling my vocal cords and your and your bones inside your ears you know vibrating I have now transmitted the idea from my mind to your mind but the truth is the idea the word tree was just nominal you could have used anyone if we all agreed that the the word for this thing that we call a tree was a box or a cat or a dog then we could have used any of those words it makes no difference which words we use the key is the idea and whichever word communicates the idea is the key have a look at number 20 Greek philosophy more or less begins with the Insight that a word is only a name I.E it doesn't represent the true being the word is only a name in Hebrew the word for a word is a davar which is the thing itself the word and this is key for us the word itself the text itself has a life of its own it's not just a means of communicating an idea look in Plato number 21 he who follows names in the search after things and analyzes that meaning is in great danger of being deceived how real existence is to be discovered is I suspect Beyond you and me we must rest content with the admission that the knowledge of things is not to be derived from their names you don't get any truth from the words itself says the Greek so to Aristotle number 22 spoken sounds are symbols of affections in the soul and written marks symbols of spoken sounds a name is spoken sounds significant by convention it's convention only it doesn't matter what it is and for us that's very different because the text is the one thing which is alive for us the text is the thing itself and what we're always doing when we're trying to learn text is to analyze what the text says I think this is it sounds like an obvious point but it's really not an obvious point I'll give you an example from um that my students often raise with me how old was Yak the arada how old was Yak at the arada 37 you're all very confident about that where do we get 37 from I mean does he sound 37 from the text not really okay and how old was Rifka when she's doing all the water with the camels three now this is all part of the same system the reason he would be 37 and she would be three is because you've read Rashi and Rashi quotes from s Raba who says look just do the math SAR was 90 years old when Yak was born Sarah died when she was 127 so Sarah died when Yak was 37 okay so far it's just straightforward mouth yizak got married when he was 40 also in the text and the birth of Y is recorded just after the AA okay and the death of SAR is recorded at the same time so the aada the birth of Rifka and the AA all happened and the sorry the the AA the birth of Rifka and the death of SAR were all basically the same and therefore the same time and therefore Rifka was three with the camels and Y was 37 of the AA now the Ezra comes along and says that doesn't sound like it sounds like r was much older and it sounds like Yik was much younger he said he can't have been like three or four cuz he's carrying the wood okay so he's probably nine or 10 it's probably nine or 10 and Rifka could well be 17 18 19 20 because you're not forced to say that the three events that I just mentioned in the text all happened at the same time you don't have to understand that the aada happened and immediately afterwards Rifka was born and immediately afterwards SAR died we used we conditions at so my students ask me but I don't understand how old was he can't have been 37 and 10 meaning if you debate you say should be this and I think the should be this okay I understand why they're both true because you can look at the in different ways you can analyze it this way you can analyze it that way but you can't be two ages at the same time y cannot being 11 and 37 so which was he well that's a good question what's the na why do I even care how old y was at the age of the AA so there's a tyus I didn't bring it on the sheet but it's really very ger this that says no you've misunderstood when you see theim arguing about how was at Thea they're not arguing about how old Yak was at the AA they're arguing about how to read the text because the text is all I really care about Thea is history you'll never go back there you'll never know how old was theut has a whole play piece where he says history is Gan it's it's it's you know even if you got in the time machine and you went back to a great historical event and three of you stood there and watched it you still have three different views as to what exactly happened here but we can't even do that so we can never get access to history history is dead what is alive the text the text is alive and the na in it is this the story of Thea and the story of RKA are there to teach me on a certain level how to be a better Jew that's why I'm learning them I'm not interested in some sort of uh abstract historical reality now of course there are real historical things going on in the text of course there are but that's not the purpose of why I'm learning them I'm learning them to draw a message out of the araa and you get a very different message from the AA if Yak is 37 and allowing himself to be tied up then if y was 11 years old and being held down by his father screaming what's going on what's going on let me go it's a very very different message and therefore this is why people I think one of the problems that we have is that like it or not we all read the Torah now like Greeks which is the words don't really matter what really matters is what happened or the idea that he's trying to teach and it's that's not true what really matters is the words because the words themselves the text itself is absolutely key and uh this is one of the reasons why the translation of the Torah into Greek was so all pervasive because it's made us all think like Greeks we should be looking at the text as real and the ideas as uh as coming straight out of the text and not the text just trying to communicate the ideas in Hebrew the word and the word cev could never be interchanged from each other they have a meaning within themselves it's not like dog and cat which we could call it cat a dog and a dog a cat and who cares but in Hebrew he can't you can't do that the word itself has a reality and I think there's a very there's a lot of depth to that there's a lot of meaning to that you need to think about that and how we read the text and what we're reading it for and how we relate to it okay that's just a little thought on the translation of the text into Greek and how we think like Greeks Etc let's look at a few other points before we before we wrap up um so last week we talked a lot about um this strange the strange event of Shima cpon this Jewish uh double agent that was in the uh in the Vatican we're not going to talk about that this week but I also want to mention to you that the ninth of tavid is recorded as the death of Ezra and this is one of the things we talk about also in the in the that we say on on on the 10th of tavid where we talked about Ezra if you look here at number 24 but by so the gar says or the tah says I should say we don't exactly know what happened on the 10th on the ninth rather the T says like this we do know it's very strange we see of 10th of Tavis the bet that on the nth of Tavis Ezra that Ezra s died so we know it's we we're commemorating the death of Ezra and Ezra was an incredibly important figure the Ezra in many ways was the one that reestablished our Torah if you look at number originally means when the Torah begin the Paradigm of learning Torah broken down Ezra reestablished the Torah that all gor that Ezra would have been worthy of receiving the Torah if mosha hadn't received it before him so the death of Ezra to us is a little bit like the death of mosha renu and therefore says R that's why it's hidden a little bit we don't know exactly where R was buried we don't know where Ezra is buried Etc we do know the de of mh's death actually the z z tradition so it's not exactly the same but also it's interesting the T yonis identifies Ezra as Mali Mal the prophet and of course Mali was the last of the so the death of Ezra also becomes for us the end of NAA and therefore that gives it even more importance and relevance and meaning this is the date on which n was taken for the Jewish from the Jewish people which has again shifted um the way we you know connect with God in a very very significant way other things happened in tavid as well I brought here the first of tavid was the was the Exile with king of King y as we talked about before the 23rd of tavid was the day on which the Jews were forcibly converted in Portugal there's a lot of say about that as well but I also want to point out an interesting uh uh go over to page seven on the fifth of tavid so what's with the look at this Source number 28 because the gamarra here has a debate what is which day is the fast of tavid which day number 28 there are four things that R used to learn that an but I don't agree with him I don't agree with how that works here's one of them the fast of the 10th month that is says the 10th but me I don't agree with that the F it should be the fifth of because that's when the Jews in the gut heard nothing to do with the siege they got news on the fifth of T that the city had been destroyed later on it was on the 12th year of on the 10th month on the fifth of the fifth of the month that's when they got news that the the wall that the city had fallen and therefore they the day that they heard the disaster became the day that they commemorated that's the fast of the 10th month not the 10th of T the fifth of T and actually the mishna says the mid says number 29 in the they fasted on the actual action meaning on the 10th of Tavis and in they fasted on the fifth of Tavis when they heard that the city been destroyed and in the end it says but the became the everybody fasts on the 10th of Tavis so how how can there be a debate as to when the date which date in Tavis the the festival is the feast the fast is was it destroyed on the it just surrounded on the no no it was surrounded on the tenth it would destroyed he was destroyed later on in a but they only got news on the so which are we going to do so the has a very interesting idea which I think is very important I'm not going to read the whole thing inside he says that at the end of the day there's often a debate about which day in these months we have to have the fast give you an example when is TSH sounds like a stupid question right when is TSH on the ninth then we see RAB I think it is in the gor says if it was up to me I would have made it on the 10th because the 10th is when everything really burned down okay I mean is that an option you can just do whichever day you like here we see which day is AAR AAR the 10th but according to Rish the faster Tav should have been on the fifth what about Tas so the the walls were breached on the 17th of tamas but that's the second B mikdash in the first basa mikdash they were breached on the ninth so the suggests it doesn't actually matter which day of the month we fix the fast as long as the fast is in that month there's a fast in Ted there's a fast in Tam there's a fast in a and there's a fast in Tish which day it is is flexible which is very interesting so if that's true you know everyone says says you know Tish is going to be a you know a holiday one day I don't know it just means we're going to have a holiday in tavit a holiday in tamuz a holiday in a and a holiday and tishay so maybe it won't be on the exact dates the exact dates don't M matter that much but you see very interestingly the flexibility and I just want to finish I'm going to finish a few few minutes early and then I'll suck my recolor Suite thank you for that um there was a massive attempt not massive there was a significant attempt in the early days of the state to fix a sarav is the Y and today still there are people I think this has caught on a little bit more again recently but originally in 1949 the raban decided the 10th of tavid should be a National Memorial Day for the Shah and a day to say cish for all those people that they didn't know which which day they' actually uh they'd actually been killed and where did they want to make as the Holocaust Memorial center Hardon there was a big debate in those early days of the state where they should make it on harion or they should make it on har Herzel on or yadvashem where yadvashem is now next to Har Herzel so um the idea the attempt to make the tenth of tavid as the national Holocaust Memorial Day failed uh and in fact they the Kess decided the Y will be the 27th of Nissan which was very controversial because it's during the month of Nissan which is not meant to be a month on which you have uh negative uh Memorial days although originally y was they wanted to make it on AR P which was the day that the the war so getto was liquidated on AR of PES and you can imagine what what a balagan that would have been but harion of course was the place the only place that you could see into the old city in the 1950s the old city was captured the jordanians were in charge and therefore they felt that that would be um that would be the place on which to make this Holocaust Memorial and brought you a uh a an early response from that period which I just wanted to end with and and because we can associate the 10th of Tavis also with Y and he gives you a feel for the kind of questions which were being asked after the war after the Shah when people were so traumatized actually I I heard a podcast about uh post-traumatic growth uh on the Orthodox conundrum and 90% of people who experience trauma experienc post-traumatic growth afterwards not post-traumatic stress 10% experienc post-traumatic stress but there was a real concern when the state of Israel was founded that almost everybody living in the state was post trauma there were ashkanazi and some sarum that had come out of the Holocaust and there were hundreds of thousands of sarum that had been thrown out of their homes in Iraq in Egypt etc etc how are you going to end up with a state of Jews without the the whole state becoming one big you know mental health disaster okay exactly so look what look at the kind of questions they were asking number 31 but the the wonderful thing about today is that we can expect 90% to experience post-romantic growth just going to get through it look at number 31 the in it's a question about a rope which was used to hang um victims in the Holocaust hasat the and the on the T of wants to use it as a GLE they wanted to use a rope as a GLE on that day because the Rope was used to hang Jews during the war so look at what he says so that the the the committee has raised the question people who' come up to live in Israel they brought with them rope that they pulled off one of the trees in one of the Polish cities that many Jews had been hung hanged on that rope in and the the V had decided that they were going to have a min when they all come together on that when they come to remember all of those millions of Jews many of whom we don't even know when they were killed this is on this day the is going to wear this rope as a GLE in order to evoke those memories and then they ask is this okay so is it okay or is it not okay look what he says you have to stop this this is not okay and it's actually to do that and he says that this rope which many Jews had been killed on this has the din of a cloth that had been used to strangle somebody but that actually needs to be buried as well the Rope needs to be buried it's not allowed to be used and if if that's the case is not allowed to wear it as a GLE for who wrer and it is a Torah prohibition he says because we learned this from suim that the Rope which was used to hang somebody has to be buried together with that person the only reason I brought this CH is that like the strength of feeling ofar Tavis um I know that my wife in our community is planning on a saris a whole uh conference on women saying cish for example which is very interesting the idea that uh you know many women want to say Kish we had a whole Shear on that if you remember about a year or two ago a whole series of shearim on that but Asar bavis is in many ways the the sort of central date on which we think of that excuse me okay well that was a bit painful probably more for you than for me but uh but but but but next week uh next week we'll be back to normal service hasem and uh thank you again for all your your uh care and attention yes I