Tefilat Arvit - Obligatory or Optional | Rabbi Yossi Goldin

open up and unfortunately we heard some news of a of a of a of a TR of a number of soldiers that were unfortunately killed yesterday so we're going to open up with um with our that our learning should be a for all of our and for the return of our and and bring to all of those who have been impacted by this war and that God should should should give guidance to our leaders to make the right decisions um okay so we are now after taking a few week Hiatus um where we where we talked a little bit about had been talking about kanuka and and last week we're not going back to our our regularly scheduled programming where we've been um dealing with issues connected to um and we've been focusing specifically recently on the development of and what I wanted to do today last last time we had discussed this we had talked about the the uh the concept of ding three times a day where that comes from and the significance behind that what I want to do today is focus on on the status ofat AR what we call generally Marv um because there's an interest very fast very interesting and fascinating discussion discussion excuse me regarding the status of of AR whether or not it is an obligation or it is it is actually optional um and it begins in the in the garab and then it has there's the discussion continues through all the way through until uh the status of Marv today in the modern day post schem so we'll start with the the main source which is a gar inot and thear inour ver number one begins by quoting the mishna the mishna is discussing the timing uh of how long you have to D in the various and the mishna ends with the phrase that's the beginning here of source number one that the evening has no set doesn't say what set what so asks the gar my what do you mean what does the mishna mean when it says that the mar has no set says the if what the mishna wanted to say was to say that a person can all night you could have said that very easily you didn't have to give a vague phrase like there's no set the Mish should have simply said you can dve in all night says the there must be a different meaning to the Mish the mishna must means something else when it says what does it actually mean [Applause] says that this mishna must be according to the opinion that says that daving is not an obligation but rather is optional rash meaning you perit permitted to do so it's an optional thing it's not something that you're obligated to do rash as opposed to as we're going to see the language of okay thear R and It quotes r says it means says that it is is an obligation to davu says it is it is permissible it is permission is an optional excuse me is is the best best way to say it yes you're pointing out that the language OFA sorry then is not so clear what they're saying by Ina means it's not fixed it's not determined it's not mandatory rather according to this interpretation if that's what the mishna meant when it said you're right it is a funnier phrase what they're basically saying is means that it is not mandator it's not fixed but it's rather something that you can do if you want to that's what you'd have to interpret the language the meaning of the mishna to mean that that that's that that's what the gamarra initially thought it meant and then the gamar says no because you could have said that much more easily yes correct you are correct you are correct and I you're right you are correct that is that that what the mishna was talking about but then the gamarra inter determines that's that that that's not what the mishna actually means and the conclusion of the gamar seems to be that this is according to the opinion that says that it's a rash it's optional and then the gamar goes on to quote a number of opinions regarding this question so here it quotes between Rua says thatav is is obligatory Rua says it's optional the gar continues claims that wein that it is obligatory says we that it is actually optional and then the gar goes on and quotes a fascinating story this is this I don't want to spend too much time on this story but I want to read this story because it's connected to what we're talking about and it actually is the beginning of a well-known story in the gar that's connected to this specific topic the gam tells a story regarding the between on this specific topic the rabbis taught there was once a student who came in front ofua he asked him is it obligatory or is it optional he responded by saying it's optional they then approached who at the time was the head of the they complet the same question is it is it optional or is it obligatory said of course it's it's obligatory amarlo said the student this guy was a little rabble Rouser what your student who's a part of this he told me it was optional couldn't believe it he said I'm gonna wait until the tough guys or the tough guys the uh the tough characters enter the B mid and then I'm gon to challenge rabu on this issue when the when the main when the tough people entered the b m that same student who was creating problems got up in the B mid and asked the following question I want to know is is it obligatory or is it optional responded it is absolutely obligatory then got up and said and turned he turns to the b m is there anyone here in the crowd who disagrees with me and who obviously was who was in the crowd at the time RAB Yoshua okay rhua Rua says no everyone agrees with you which we know obviously was a little bit not correct then turns and says but I heard in your name from somebody else that you actually are telling people that it's optional yua get up stand on your feet and tell us what you believe what is what what what do you believe in got up and said if the person if that student that student who created the problem was no longer alive then I could deny that I ever said anything because I'm living he's Al he's no longer alive and I could claim that I never said that it was R now that we're both alive how can I basically I I can't I I must tell the truth cannot tell a lie I'm the one who said that it was rash so Yeshua is admitting now in front of the whole B mid to Rael who is the head of the yes that he went against or he disagreed with Rael then continued to give a Russia he basically ignored rabi Yoshua who was forced to stand stand in the corner almost as it were I don't know if it was actually in the corner and he made Yoshua stand there while he gave a dress it was almost a way of punishing RAB Yoshua for for for for disagreeing with him and the gorah goes on we're not going to do again I don't want to focus on this too much but the gorah goes on to this actually this event was the eventual cause of Rael being replaced as the head of the Yeshiva which is a very well-known story they replaced withar Ben aarya who was much was too young for the job but then overnight we know the famous story that what happened to him was he turned his beard turned white in order to make him appear more roate and it actually becomes a fascinating debate because Lear aarya was a much more amable type of Personality as a ring who was much tougher personality and there's a fascinating conversation regarding Styles leadership styles Lesar bazara opened up the b m to anyone who wanted to come in R Gamel was much more Discerning in who he led into his Yeshiva because he wanted to make sure that it was going to be only a cadra of of of of excellent students which method which educational method is better those who let anyone into the b m who wants to come in or those who believe in creating an elite that are going to be continue the future of of of am Israel so you it was a fascinating conversation and it's a fascinating story um and it all started from this discussion from this conversation regarding the status of mar Marv of Arvid whether Arvid is rash or it isov uh so I I think get basically what happened what happened was thank you no yeah you're right I didn't translate that last part what happened was that g forer your should would be standing there as he's giving the jush and eventually the crowd got up and said to the the person who was translating and said to him this can't continue this can't continue we can't allow Reb Yeshua to be embarrassed like this he's just standing there like he's you know kind of the what I the image I have I don't know if he's like the guy standing with the duns cap in the corner right he's just standing there while you're giving the Rasha and then and then they say this isn't the first time this has happened other times where he has challenged reab yosua and then a group of people approach and they and they and and and the idea to replace is the head of Yeshiva gains traction and eventually B aarya becomes the head of the Yeshiva so again I I brought it because I think it's just a fascinating thing to snipp it to be aware of and it's it's really a wonderful wonderful story and and has many many ramifications for educational educational Styles and leadership styles but for our purposes what we see from here is we have this it's clearly a that began with the T it continues through abay and Raa who are the who are who are the the amim and we and and and there's clearly a big debate here whether or not Marv is obligatory or it is or it is optional but then there's another gar that mentions this as well the gar in Source number two quotes uh discusses a similar type of type of of situation a question regarding the status of mar and it and it quotes that RAV who is also again another one of the seemingly whoin that Mar is is a r well I'll read the gar quickly I don't want to get into the details of the context to is a little bit complicated but Source number two if a person do Ander he no longer he is now P he is exempt from daving Mar that night well I don't want to get too much into the details of that of why that would be this was an extra doing once he already D is usually DAV towards the evening time once you DAV in the evening you no longer that's that's that's ra wait a second but the implication that if you D in you're you're exempt from DAV Mar implies that if you didn't DAV then DAV Mar would be an obligation says are you implying that holds that is actually an obligation we know elsewhere says elsewhere paskins that DAV is not an obligation it's it's a it's it's an it's optional answers the gar he was only he himself believes that it is that it is optional he was talking according to the opinion that beli that it was obligatory okay but what we see from this gamar as well is that RAV clearly pins that that that Marv is r and and in terms andon him discuss and point out that if you would take these two garas the seemingly implication would be that we would pass that R why number one because the in in Source number one that was how the gar explains the mishna the mishna now is according to the opinion that says R and number two based on general rules of when we have between and ra we generally will we generally pasin like Raa and when and R we generally pin like RAV as well so because of the people involved here the application seems to be that we're posing that Marv is rash the problem is is that if you follow if you look at the number of other garas the gamar seems to indicate otherwise and that's we have now a number of garas which we're going to do we'll do them we'll get we'll go through them because they're each making a similar point but they're all pointing out that seem to seem to imply at least at at face value that Marv is actually an obligation and not a rash which we go against what we what we just saw in in the first two garas yes excellent okay so so the idea of where Marv came from which we're going to see also on the continuation that we've done in the past but the simple understanding is that and this is part of the conversation but the simple understanding of where of K came from at least the earliest earliest earliest Source would be the gamar that says that it came from the aot okay that would be the earliest Source the idea that and Yakov each of them established one of the different filot and the gamar that gamar that we that we saw earlier that says that that that Yakov was one who Tain arvit that's that's the gamarra the gamar also connects it to the corbane although the corbane it's a little bit different because in the Corban note you only have two corbano that are Corban tamid and then the third one Marv is said to refer to the burning of the of the limbs of the of the corbano that that that continue to happen through the night and that corresponds to to to Marv that those are again according to the gamar are those the sources for ding Marv or are those just hints to the idea of daving Marv that's unclear okay but there is this idea that Mar that is where Marv seems to have come from and then theal establish it as as as three times a day but the Bas the main sources are those two places okay but the qu as we're going to see soon there will be a difference between those two uh and we'll see we'll see why that's going to be important okay so now the question becomes whether or not this is obligatory or not now let's continue AR we have a few more garas that now seem to indicate that actually is obligatory and not optional what do we see that's Source number three the gar discusses the following scenario what happens if a person forgets to DAV Min or a person forgets to so the says the following ask the following question let's say a person forgot or for whatever reason he was unable to should he twice so says the well one thing we know for sure is that if you miss if you forget Mar you should D inak twice says the that makes sense why does that Mak sense because if we know that that Hally the day the Jewish day begins at night so the first so it would make sense that if I forget it Mar I can continue and make it up in shakit because shakar is really continuation of of mar of of the night before says the gar maybe if I miss Min Min already belongs to the day before Mar belongs to the to to the next day so ask the gamar maybe I shouldn't be able to make up at Mar because they're now I've now crossed over to the second day answers the gar no you can you can even though Mar is already the next day you can still make up from the day before if for whatever reason you missed all the Reon in point out why is that because again even though they're separate days nevertheless you're able you're able to make up a that you missed at the next even if even if even even if it's Hally the next the next day all the Ron point out that the implication of this gar the idea that if I miss what do I need to do make it up the next day what does that seem to clearly indicate that Mar is an obligation because Marv is just a r if Marv is optional if I missed it I missed it not only not only is it a big deal if I if I miss it I don't have to do it to begin with so all the rean point out that wait a second something here doesn't doesn't doesn't fit in so that's gar number one that they say this seems to clearly indicate that Marv is a source number four another discussion a similar type of discussion Amar raar ra Anan says in the name of Ra what happens ones evening if I forget to say at night says the I don't have to repeat this many of us are familiar with that if you forget y you should repeat but if you forget it at night you don't have to repeat says the why what's the difference between so if I were to ask you that question what would you all say it's optional that's not the gar says what does the gar say why not because is all about what's called KES when they would sanctify the new moon and that only took place during the day it did not take place at night all the him asked wait a second why are you giving me a reason connected toeses to the sanctification of the Moon the very simple answer should be why do I not need to repeat at night if I leave it if I leave it out at shakaris Marv because I don't need to say Marv to be begin with so the gamar the fact that the gamar needs to bring another explanation connected to implies that this Mar would be obligatory that's question that's that's again another gar that seems again and now a third gamar this gamar is discussing a different scenario this gar is discussing the that a person is not allowed to involve the or it's discussing really two separate issues but we're talking about that a person who is when when when when the time to comes comes a person isly obligated to start ding right away right one generally when the time comes you should start doing you shouldn't wait unless you're involved in certain activities if says and the gamar says if you begin those activities before the for comes you can continue those activities but if you haven't started the activities yet you should DAV in first and then begin those activities now for us this this actually is less practical because now that we have set times for AR we're less worried about forgetting to Davin back in the times of the gamar a person didn't have if a person didn't Davin right away when the time came we were afraid he would forget and therefore there were limitations to what you could do before you dve it so the gamar says if you began certain activities you can continue those activities if you didn't begin yet you should first Davin and then do those activities so then the gamarra goes say well what's considered starting an activity and the gamar now goes through a number of different activities and defines what's considering the starting point for those activities that's the gamar in Source number five so one activity is getting a haircut that you shouldn't get a if you started getting a haircut which used to take a lot longer he started getting a haircut before his man of came then you can continue to get that haircut but if you hadn't started yet you should or the time for Mar came you should have Mar says theor what's Define what's considered starting there is it sitting in the chair is it when he starts to cut so says when is it considered to be that you've begun the process of getting ha that you now do not need to stop in the middle to you put that like the handkerchief that that that that that that the barber puts on you that's the beginning of the process of getting a haircut okay what about another activity was going to the bath house which US used to be a much longer activity when when they would when they would go to take a shower and it was a much bigger process when is that considered to be that you started the activity when you start to take off your cief they used to wear some kind of outer cchf on themselves when you start taking off your clothing the first piece of clothing that you take off that is considered the beginning of the process of you've already started going to the bath house and you can continue that inav afterwards borski is going into is doing an act of tanning tanning certain uh animals when does that process begin when you tie certain things between between the shoulders of the animal again we're not going to get into all of the details one other activity which is really more relevant for us right now is another activity that you're allowed to continue if you started is when you start eating if you began a meal before this man came you can continue that meal and finish it and then Davin if you didn't start the meal yet you should dve in first and then continue and then and then begin your meal what's considered to be beginning the meal so the gamar gives two explanations once you wash your hands you've now begun the meal and you don't need to interrupt it if comes once you start to take off your belt or unlo right open up your belt in order to be able to make food for make room for the food okay and then the gamarra goes on and says well these are these are these are they're not there's no argument here these were different places one was in B one was somewhere else in different places there were different actions that were done to indicate that I am now beginning my meal okay that's all background comes ab and he says all my friends from B according to those who say that arv is going to be R once he once he opens up or loosens his belt when it comes to it's gonna be different than Mar once you open up your belt once you loosen your belt that's the best way to say it once you loosen your belt you don't you no long you've now started the meal and you don't need to stop and interrupt to go Mar says thear wait a second why you talking about we just said that that's true about about as well right we just said a second ago that once you start your meal whether it's Mar or it doesn't really matter in both cases you've begun your meal and you no longer need to interrupt your meal in order to in order to says the if you hold is is obligatory you would make him tighten his belt and go DAV which we know is a and we already said that if a person loosens his belt he no longer has to stop the meal he can continue the meal so the gamar then goes on to distinguish between the gamar says is number one at night there's more of a chance that you might at night people used to drink alcohol as part of their meal and if we have them start the meal there's more of a concern that they might forget to do it and therefore only because Marv is optional therefore will be more will be more lenient and even once he opens up once he begins the meal he can continue it we're not worried that he's going to drink and because we're not worried that he's going to drink we'll be more we'll be more lenient and let him continue the meal even if he hasn't even though uh once once he begins once he begins the meal so again forgive me it's a little bit of of a confusing of a confusing uh gamar what the what we see from this case is the gamar seems to indicate that when it comes to marif when do you not have to dve in Mar once you've begun the process of eating all the ask say wait a second second let's say I didn't begin the process of eating and the time for Marv comes but I don't want to dove in Marv why not because Marv is optional why does the gamar seem to indicate that the only reason you can do this if Mar is rash is because you've begun eating let's say I didn't begin eating if I didn't begin eating but you just told me Marv is rash Marv is optional and if Marv is optional I should be allowed to determine whether or not I want to D and here the gar seems to say that if it's optional only if you began the meal do you not need to stop to DAV marif so this again seems to indicate that even when we say it's rash clearly it must have some kind of obligatory piece to it okay so we have a number of garas we have really three garas and there's more three garas that all seem to clearly indicate that Marv is obligatory it's not optional so how do we how how do we understand those who say it's optional not only that as we said before the this the simple understanding of the gamarra back then was that we POS that it's optional how do we understand these garas how do you put these two together so sorry one other gamar and that's this is also important for us one final gamar that is important is a gar that we're familiar with we've done a number of times and that gamar is Source number six where the gamarra discusses The Source four three times a day and the gamar says there's two sources for doubting three times a day one opinion is is that the aot the forefather our forefathers were ones who establish the the three that they're they correspond to the so some of the say wait a second if come from theot andov okay is there any reason to indicate is there any difference between and yov are they all the aot are they all legitimate aot from what we understand so then if it's if if each of the aot establish a different so then why would anybody say Marv is rash doesn't make much sense doesn't make any sense at all because if Mar why would Marv be rash why is yakov's any less than all the other than all so this G also seems to indicate that that that that Mar should be should be okay so this gar we can actually get out of easily okay excellent so so therefore there's two ways we that we could say that that we could answer the question from this specific one answer we could give is exactly what you're suggesting which is the P Yoshua theosu in Source number seven he basically says you're right this gar about whether we whether we learned F from the aot or we learn we learn that that doing from the corote that is the same of whether is or if you learn the from the aote then what would you conclude that Marv is going to be obligatory just like the other ones if you believe the source for davening the three times a day is from the Corban note then it makes much more sense to say that Marv is going to be is going to be optional because we only have two main tedium we only have two main Corb and the third one is corresponding the burning of the of the of the of the of the of the limbs of the animals but that wasn't an actual Corban so says the in Source number seven it seems to be says that this regarding the sort regarding whether or not sorry regarding whether or not Mar is r or is isov will depend on the m whether we learn three times a day from the aot or we learn it from the from the Cor in which case it's the same you have there and you have the same here they're dependent on each other in which case it's not really a question because you have two different opinions you have just like you had two opinions there obligatory and optional here too the two different sources for can correspond to those two opinions another way we could we could answer the question from this specific is we could say well as we said before this regarding the aot and regarding the corot some people say that this isn't this is this isn't a gamarra arguing over the source of ding three times a day this gamar is just meant to highlight where the TLO could come from that there's themes that come from the aod and there's themes that come from the from the Corban it's not meant to be the main source in which case it wouldn't really be a question because it's not dealing with the actual source for daving for d for daving three times a day so this gamarra we could suggest is not necessarily such a big question but we still have three garas that are a question three garas that all seem to indicate that Mar is is is obligatory and yet we concluded with our first that that DAV was was optional so theim discussed this in detail and there are three main three main approaches three main approaches that that we that we can suggest one approach Source number eight comes from the the is one of the is is a is a collection of on the and he explains the following the basically um sorry so sorry actually we'll we'll skip the for now we're going to go to the excuse me in Source number eight makes the following declaration he says even though Theo started out as R when we say R what that basically means was it was optional but if a person were to ever start to Davin by himself choose to do it after doing it once or twice he now has basically committed to doing it and now and now became a personal obligation okay look at the bah in Source number eight the underlined part when we say is that referred to a person who has never D it's it's it's optional and if you choose never you can you basically keep it optional for you if you start to DAV in or in your mind you accept upon yourself that you're going to DAV in Mari it now becomes an obligation once you start doing it you've now tapped in and basically said I would like to adopt this and now it's become kov so all those garas says the B that seem to imply that you have to repeat if you forgot if you forgot rosesh that you have to repeat if you forgot Tav you have to do tashlin all of those cases were were a situation where this person had already DAV Marv a couple of times and had therefore activated the obligation on himself and that's why he was obligated to repeat if he forgot yalo or do tashlin if he forgot if he forgot if he forgot AR we it started out as a rute and it is now something that if the person chooses to do he now has accepted upon himself as an obligation okay now according to the bahag it seems to be a personal decision okay meaning every person can decide for themselves one one person could choose to never to never David and and he would never have the obligation other people could choose to once they start doing it now becomes an obligation for them that's one direction to go tosos in Source number nine has a totally different understanding toos says the word r optional can have many different meanings R optional could mean it is totally optional under all circumstances optional or rute could also mean if you have any reason not to do it it becomes optional but other than that you're obligated says toos in Source number nine doesn't mean here when the gar says even the opinion that says it's it's optional doesn't mean it's optional in the sense like you can if you want to you don't have to if you don't want to what it means appreciate what it means is that what it means is if you have a good reason not to do it then if you had to pick one then you could you can forgo Mar but all things being equal if you have no reason not to do Mar you're o to D okay so this opinion totally changes the concept of r r doesn't mean whatever you want up to you you want to got can if you don't want to you don't have to what it means is this is less of an obligation than than Shak but if you don't have any other reason not to you should do it good question what he seems to suggest is as he uses a language of aah you have another Mitzvah that needs to get done and by the way you're right in all the other cases he's going to need to explain and this is toast this toast was this to appears in a number of different places and what he basically suggests is he usually refers to as if you have a Mitzvah to do or something similar to a Mitzvah but you are correct that it's going to be you have to really Define what that means the seeming understanding is it means if you have something else of spiritual importance that you need to do you can forgo Mar but otherwise you should in Mar and look at look at look at the next look I I brought toos again in Source number 10 because there he he he fleshes out this opinion a little a little bit more okay and again first he opens up in Source number 10 with all the questions from the garas we brought that seem to imply that it's an obligation and look at the underlined part in Source number 10 even though it is not the formal obligation like you should not forgo it for no reason if not for the fact that either you have a Mitzvah which you need to do or or you started your meal okay so he considers that also to be an important value so again he's you're right that there has to be this kind of definition of what's considered a good reason so he he has to you to that to that line then he continues and says the following he says I'll tell you why it has to be that it's somewhat of an obligation t k because as we got as we said earlier if yaku established this there's no reason to suggest that it's not going to be some level of obligation once if yob established it he didn't just establish it for kind of whoever wants to when they want to it must have some level of obligation since we also saw that Mar corresponds to the burning of the of the parts of the animal even though the burning is not something you have to do it is certainly a Mitzvah to do so the same thing should be here with Marv Marv is the status of Marv says toos is you should do it it's an obl obligation unless you have a good reason not to don't it's not as obligatory as but it certainly is an obligation okay now that will explain how with if if you understand it that way that explains all the garas all those garas that said you need to repeat if you forgot what forgot you forgot yo or you need to make up Mar if you if you didn't DAV one time that's because it really is fundamentally an obligation those are cases where you didn't have a good reason not to do it and therefore you should have doen and if you don't you need to you need to make it okay so that's explanation number two explanation number one was was that it was that it is a it is it is a full-fledged rash is fully optional unless you started to Davin yourself once you started to Davin then you need to continue and the second is is that when we said optional we didn't really mean optional we meant somewhat optional more there's more leeway with Mar than there are with the other fot the third opinion is the opinion of the Riff in Source number 11 Source number 11 he said the following first he quotes the opinion of the bahag is the first part which we did already and then at the end he says the following look at the end the last the second underline part the end of source number 11 even those who say that is there's no obligation but you do get a mitzvah for doing it this is a little bit different than what we just said in too too said there is an obligation unless you have a good reason the Riff is saying you have no obligation you don't have to but if you do do it you get credit for it there's MIT there's something laudatory about doing it okay and therefore it's it's kind of like a middle ground it's not that it's fully optional and it's not that it's totally obligatory it's in between if you do it you get you get credit for doing it you should do it it's a good thing to do but you're not obligated to do it and then the Riff ends with with the most relevant part for us practically nowadays says the Riff no says the Riff nowadays we as a community and this may be something that you have heard before we as a community have agreed accepted upon ourselves to DAV Marv and once we accept it upon ourselves to DAV Marv it now becomes aov okay now this is different than the bahag the bahag was talking about individuals who choose to Davin once an individual chooses to D he then has an obligation the Riff is talking communally the Riff is basically saying at some point during the time since the gar the community itself made the decision to accept upon themselves to DAV Marv and once that happened we don't we we no longer have a choice we no longer have a choice we now as a community Marv is now obligatory and therefore we as a community must okay so that also different ways to explain the different garas and by the way that is the way that we generally assume and we're going to see now the r we practically assume that because as a commun Unity we accepted upon ourselves to DAV Marv it is now considered to be obligatory now when it comes to for example women and daving and hopefully we'll get to that in a a future class because fundamentally women it's a it's a debate whether women are obligated and how much they're obligated so for Marv we'll go back to saying that it's rash in generally it's understood that women are not obligated to D Mar whereas men are considered to be to be obligated D in Mar although obviously a woman is is certainly welcome and encouraged to but in terms of obligation it's less of an obligation that it is for man even though the community accepted it yes well the reason is because since as a community we've now accepted it upon ourselves therefore it's like an OB it's like it's obligatory and that's why you have to repeat it if you forget if you forget it or sorry or in or actually wasn't being 100% accurate when it comes to and thank you for pointing this out I just realized when it comes I want to make sure I'm clear when it comes to rosesh you don't have to repeated in Marv but the reason is only because of the reason connected toeses not because Marv is is is is optional so it actually is true that if you it's this is actually important this is a distinction difference between Andes if you forget y you repeat it why because again we've accepted upon ourselves as an obligation you don't and that's unique toes because R is connected toes the sanctification of the Moon which was only done during the day and not and not at night or if a person if a person for doesn't for some reason he does have to do tashin and make it up the next day at shakar because again we've now as a community accepted Marv uh as as as something that we David together as a community we've accepted upon ourselves and we we are now it's now considered an obligation yes correct not like not like the N Community vers yes correct thei the Riff statement was a a commun by communal I mean a a uh big CL Isel wide acceptance of of DAV Mar now the rambam also agrees with the Riff and that's is why again he's also quoting the Riff um but he has a very interesting uh twist which is picked up on by and I want to first read the ra with you together the r in Source number 12 U again discusses the source for Mar and he's discussing actually the source for all of the and then he continues with Mar Source number established you should D in one night the limbs of the they would be burnt and consumed throughout the night okay and therefore corresponding to that burning of the limbs weav and then he notes that there's also a hint to DAV as we've mentioned from DAV the says that I will talk to I will talk to Hashem and he will listen to my voice that hints to the fact that we d three times a day as we've noted because it mentions arev and then the r continues the obligation to DAV is not the same obligation as and nevertheless that answers your question right all of is wherever you are they accepted upon themselves as if it were to be an obligatory doming now ra Sal is known as ra brisker he was one of the great great um H and gamar Minds uh in Jewish history he's the grandfather of we know as salic and he began what's known as the brisker method and he has a whole number of different Works mostly of them are are on the ramb he notes that there seems to be a contradiction between this raham and another Ram okay I didn't bring you the other Rah but I'll mention it to you the other ra the other Ram mentions what that if a person what happens if a person is daving Shimon he's in the middle of shon and and this is I have to say admittedly it happened to me I imagine many of you will probably relate to this I'm daving Marv and then all of a sudden I'm like wait a second I already daved marif this is the second time that I'm ding I do earlier than I usually do or this or right I'm sure it's happened the question is what do you do then so says the r and this is based off of the G that if it's you should stop where you are you shouldn't continue why because the the that you thought you were saying which was for that is that is an obligatory daving the only way you're allowed to DAV if you don't need to is what's called is if you're bringing an optional to to to a which a person can do whenever they want to but says the r you can't start out having a and then finish it up as a it needs to be one or the other and therefore if you started sorry as a because you thought it was because you thought you needed to and then you realize I already or I already you should stop in the middle and just don't continue because you can't transition in the middle of the same from a that is that is obligatory to one that is one that is optional but then says the r however Marv is different if you're in the middle of mar and then you realize wait a second I D already you can continue and finish Theon why says the ram because Mar is optional says what well I don't understand look at the r we just said the ram we just said before said that Marv we've accepted upon ourselves that Marv is not optional that Marv is obligatory so how can this Ram not that much later a few PR him later talk about Mar being optional and therefore you can continue something very very sharp says says there's two different things we have to ask ourselves one is why am I doing this this this and what and what is the type of that I'm doing says the following when when when when according to the Ram at least he says this isn't true of everybody when Isel accepted upon themselves to DAV Mar the obligation was to sayif but the actual that we're agreeing to say retains its initial status as a we're basically obligating our eles to say an optional okay it's a little bit of a fine distinction we we we have we we we have committed ourselves to say it that is what we agreed to accept but the actual F itself retains its status as an optional doing which means the type of that we're doing as is going to be fundamentally different than Shak even though we say all of them practically okay now what what that what what does that mean what that means is in terms of practically it means the type of the nature of that is going to be a little bit different we are obligating ourselves to say something that is optional it's it's what's called that is we agreed to say it we're we're we we we we obligated ourselves to say it but it still retains the flavor of an optional now again what's the what's better what's worse optional or or or obligatory what do you think you can go both ways right if if something is obligatory so I'm I'm fulfilling something I need to do I'm listening to what wants me to do something is optional it has a certain personal element to it has a different style a different flavor to the to the so what what what what what what what the Jewish people committed to doing when they agreed to DAV Marv was they obligated themselves to say a that still retains its optional type it's a different style and therefore says if you're in the middle of for and you realize you daved already you have to stop because because you're in the middle of you started as a you can't transition to what about marif Mar we all have to say and then I'm in the middle but I'm in the middle of daving and I realize wait a second I daved already I'm still only doing what he calls and therefore I can complete that doing according to the rambam even though I don't need to say it because anyway the was started as a okay it's a idea and the suggest again it's very fine that is what we would call A Classic brisker distinction in terms of understanding that it's not just about why you're doing it's it's what there's the dis between why you're doing and what you're saying and there's a lot there that we could unpack but I just wanted to share with you that that overall approach which that even according even once we've agreed to DAV in Marv and to obligate ourselves to DAV in Marv the flavor of that f is going to still remain different and that I think is important because it's important that when we have that our different have come to highlight different types of themes and here is highlighting that this is a which we're obligated to say but the style of it and the flavor of it is going to be a little bit different than than Min and uh and shakar women were not o to so again where the the whole the whole in the ah oh you mean that specific point no so again the truth is that the whole issue of of are we been obligated to D in or not is is a is a totally different conversation and it's not so clear that they're not obligated according to many opinions they are obligated to D it's just a question of how many times and I I do hope that we we'll get to cover it uh but but but but many many most opinions are that women are obligated to at least D in once a day uh and there's different distinctions as to why that would be is it because it is it's not or it is M maybe even though it is mangama they're still obligated anyway it's a whole conversation it's a fascinating conversation the simp understanding that they are women are obligated to doin at least once a day some even say twice a day so so therefore it's a whole separate discussion but you are correct about that it would highlight it would it would connect to that to that whole conversation I think again Mari certainly they're not obligated to do um that pretty much everybody agrees although although it's definitely women who want to accept upon themselves to do that it's certainly laudatory um okay so there's one other thing that I wanted to just mention so in terms of just two two two points I wanted to mention to conclude Lisa as I said we we we follow what the Riff in the RAB say which is that we believe that nowadays we are obligated certainly the men are obligated to DAV Marv because we accept it upon ourselves to DAV to to davv I brought for you in Source number 14 they point out we're not going to do it inside but the reason why there is no karat right we have why is there no because even though we've accepted upon ourselves to DAV now fundamentally it still it started out as it and therefore they didn't they didn't they weren't to have they made it they made it a smaller and and and quick and quicker but there's one other point that I wanted to share with you which which I just found recently which I thought was fascinating there is actually if you look at source number 15 the sharich chuva which is a commentary this isn't the sh Chua the famous Shar Chua Yona about a treaties on Chua this is a saer that is a commentary to the Misha in Source number 15 he quotes an opinion that says that even if you hold that Marv is a rash Marv on Friday night is going to be different Mar Friday night is obligatory this is the opinion of the source number 15 that even if you hold that during the week is a everybody agrees this is an opinion it's also mentioned apparently in the Zohar I don't really learn Zohar uh not yet at least um but apparently the Zohar holds that DAV Mar on Friday night is obligatory the question would be why would there be a difference between Friday night slash or or or or yum night and and the rest of the week no no no not for women we're talking now we're talking now actually you know what I don't know I don't know but I I believe we're talking only specifically about man okay so the question would be why so in order to fully understand this there is a a fascinating explanation ofin who tries to explain why to begin with Marv would ever be would what what's the what's the depth of this idea a deeper understanding of this idea that Marv is rash as opposed to the first two that are and in Source number 16 makes the following gives the following explanation why he says what is all about is about a c achieving a certain awareness of a and there's a fundamental difference when it comes to awareness of between daytime and nighttime daytime represents as we know in all many different way many different areas daytime represents presents Clarity represents an ability to see things as they are nighttime in the world of Mak represents darkness when things are less clear things I don't I don't feel the presence that's why we say in the B I can talk about God's kindness at night I can't talk about God's kindness because he because it's harder for me to see him what do I need to rely on Mya my faith so says here doing for encouraging or or making it o obligatory for a person to dive in Shak that makes sense why because daytime represents times of clarity where it's easier for us to see God in our lives nighttime represents moments where we don't see God as clearly to obligate somebody to doin at moments when they don't it's harder for them to see the presence of God you can't do that it's not right someone it's all based on how much a person is able to to see and therefore says symbolically instituted and as being obligatory and AR being R because to because Arvest represents those moments when a person has trouble seeing God or seeing the Yad Hashem it's much harder for a person to connect and therefore fundamentally Arvis is is rute now getting back to chabas I heard this again I heard this in in a podcast that I heard a few weeks ago from RAB yasi zakutinsky who's a very very well-known and popular Rabbi in in the towns he said based on this perhaps we can now explain the Zohar why would shabis be different because shabis is a time when we're meant to see the bigger picture shabas is a time where we commemorate that God created The World God created the world in six days and we hope we're we're striving to achieve a greater level of understanding that everything comes from aadh it's when we're hopefully able to see the bigger the bigger picture it's why we say it's why we say what what what do we say on again we talk about we talk about when we're supposed to see God's or hopefully strive to see God's presence even in moments that are darker chabis is meant to help Inspire that and therefore it's specifically on shabis suggested by zakutinsky that maybe based on this that's when kazal or that's when kazal would would would obligate one to DAV Marv even at night because shabis gives someone the strength and the ability or or strives to give us the strength the ability to to to see God's hand even in moments of darkness and that is that is the gift of shabas on some level and therefore kazal obligated one to DAV anakis sorry an shabis even if during the week they made it they made it optional and no longer obligatory okay so that was just one thing at the end so what we saw today was we discussed um the status ofat AR we noted a in the gar whether DAV is optional or obligatory big starting from the T to the down to the we noted that there seems to be a contradiction between the different garas one gar seems to make it clearly that it's R but other gar seem to clearly indicate that it is obligatory we noted a few different ways to interpret what that means what does rash really mean does rash mean it's totally optional or if you accept upon upon yourself then maybe becomes obligatory or maybe rash just meant if you have no no reason if you have no if you have a good reason then you don't have to do it or maybe it meant that the entire Community accepted upon themselves it was rash and then the community as a whole accepted upon themselves to to Davin and that is how we POS it we POS in that we as a community have accepted upon ourselves to DAV Marv and therefore we are obligated all to DAV Marv we saw that beautiful idea that even though we've accepted upon ourselves to DAV the nature of that still retains its flavor of being one of of of of of of option and therefore it has a status of being a and it's worth thinking about what exactly that means and how we and how that can add more meaning to our and then we ended with this idea that perhaps the significance of not of not of of making Mar of optional corresponds to the difference between night and day the difference between moments of clarity versus moments of doubt and that kazal can encourage us obligate us to dve in during moments of clarity whereas moments of Doubt night represented by night kazal couldn't make that obligatory except perhaps maybe on chabas because on chabas we get that boost of inspiration wishing everybody a wonderful wonderful week