Rabbinic Aristocracy or Nepotism | Rabbi Shai Finkelstein | July 22, 2025

We will continue with uh nepotism. It's really good to talk about nepotism for so long, right? Okay. So, we are on page uh six on or five >> five and we will conclude uh this show will conclude the series of classes. So we are on page five towards the the end of page five in Moshe. So uh just just to give a very short summary what we started few few I don't know many weeks ago we spoke about the the idea the idea of um of Mosher Rabenu wanting to uh have his children becoming his successors. And we spoke about the different uh opinions in the midrash why the answer was no and what was the thought that Moshe had and why and then we went into the hala of it we showed some uh some questions in halaka and now we're going to conclude with some other response regarding that that subject okay so Feinstein Feinstein was asked the question which is many years ago. Okay, so that's 45 years ago. 47 years ago, 47 years ago. And it says the following. The question is like that. So the question is there is a rabbi who is in that specific sh for many many years. He gives speeches between Shabbat. He's uh you know he's doing everything that is needed. He did it on a volunteer basis, but he was never appointed to be the former rabbi. But it was a known fact that he was quote unquote the rabbi. Even the gabim that were there for many years, they also thought that he is the rabbi. So he's like a rabbi without being appointed to be the rabbi. And now another rabbi comes along and he wants to be the rabbi. So can you remove this one who was a rabbi without really being appointed to be the rabbi? Now this is by the way uh it's a well well-known phenomena in uh communities that they start a shul without really having a rabbi or it's just like a minion and then someone is just functioning as a rabbi but he was never really appointed and then and he he stays. Yeah. And then when you really want to hire a rabbi then the problems uh s faces. So says the following says it's very simple to my humble opinion says this person who was never appointed is considered as the rav of this community and it's due to two main reasons first what it says in the you He says first based on what the Rama is in the 16th century says in as part of the gloss in the that if someone held on to a a position even though he was not appointed but he did it for years you cannot remove him from his position. So that's one. So he says another rabbi can comes along and let's say he can make a he can be a pos. Let's say this Rav is not a pos. He's a good speaker. He's a good michu. He's a good psychologist, you know, very good. So that you don't replace him. The other guy can make maybe can give up. Okay. I will translate in a second. So the second reason is the fact that the did not say a thing for such a long time which means you have a rabbi who was not appointed and he functions as a rabbi right so you know a week two three it's nice you would expect the ka to come and tell him look we really appreciate what you do but just one thing let's clear the air you are not Rabbi, we do enjoy your talks. We do enjoy your presence. But we just want to tell you that what that in a chance or in a time that someone else will come and we are ready to hire a rabbi, you are not considered to be what? The rabbi here. If they would say that fine, they didn't bye. Okay. Now if they have claims against him, I don't know, he is not appropriate, he's not nice, he's not okay, sue me. Okay. >> Complain. >> That's also true. Yeah. You know, sometimes uh people complain only after they see something else. Okay. And sometimes just complain because they like to complain. But whatever it is, if they did not reveal their opinions before, he is the rabbi. Okay. It might be the tea just function as a mag or whatever and they each one of them you know reach out to a different p not necessarily the by the way I know and heard about some name of ko that they don't want to make they're not the just mideshi oh but they don't want to have anything to do with Oh, because he thought that there is no rabbi and someone reached out to him and says, "Oh, sure. I can be a candidate." Came down and then he he hears that there is a rabbi. Yes. Okay. So, let's see if I'm not mistaken. So, his question is about the son-in-law. So, you had the father-in-law was the rabbi. He passed away. Can you say that it's not only goes to whom? To the children, but it goes all also to whom? >> To the son-in-law. Do you see how we view a son-in-law like you're really truly your son? Right. >> Beautiful. What? >> Right. So, let's see. This is an interesting thing. Now here it's a bit different. It's not that there is no son. There is a son and there is a son-in-law. And the son-in-law says I would like to take over and the son says I would like to take. Now this is interesting by the way even with the rebu was something someone closed. It was the son if I'm not mistaken. >> Grandson, >> nephew, grandson. >> No, no, no. Not the rabbi. The rabbi's father-in-law. I think he had he had a son if I'm not mistaken or a grandson or someone another son-in-law. Okay. Don't I think it will be resolved if the daughter will take over right so um so here we have the issue of a son versus a son-in-law you see how exciting it can be also >> no this is yeah page six okay when there is The son, the son-in-law gets nothing. Sorry. So here we have another case that he brings. He brings invim that the question there was like that there was a shamash and he died the son-in-law took over for like three five years even though that shamash had what had a son and the son didn't say anything three years later the son says what this is my job this is not your Shalom. [Music] forchech. So this case becomes a bit complicated. The case that brought was what? The shamash died. The son-in-law took over. The son did not say anything for three years. After 3 years he realized oops maybe it's a good position and he basically what appealed and said you know what I want the job. Okay good that's wonderful. But we say you were silent for 3 years. Here the story is a bit more complicated. And why it is a bit more complicated? Because the son-in-law indicates that what that the kahal also approached him says look I can't clarify that. I don't know exactly what's the story. If I would know the story I might make a better but I don't know the story. The thing is like that. This is a very interesting thing. When we say that uh okay, let's put it like that. Let's make it complicated. We like complicated stories. Why not? If it's not, it's not fun, right? If it's so easy, it's a pash. We said that always the Ben Beh has uh the right, right? So if it's a Ben versus a son-in-law and mal let's say that there is a daughter she's the first born okay and then there is a son second son okay and then there is a son-in-law and >> not necessarily maybe to even an adult daughter so I will make it as complicated as I can so and the sonin-law is definitely fits the bill of he can basically fulfill his father-in-law's shoes in wisdom and inashem in being a god-fearing person and the son can fulfill his father's place in let's say not which was the indicator right you remember the fear of god and the people would like to see the son-in-law d Not the son. Do you still think that the son has a better right than the son-in-law or not? Okay, let's open it up. >> Yes. >> No, no, no. Before a question. Before a question. Don't Don't be a good Jew. Don't ask answer me with a question. >> What is the qualification? We said we said we said we said wisdom and I said you don't have everybody's but now he's now he's rabbi >> no no both of them have both of them are good this is not the issue don't ruin my story now I I just made up a story okay >> yes oh don't say names and places it happened somewhere on one of the continents Uh-huh. And what was the So the story was in >> acceptable. But why? >> Yeah. There there was a shul somewhere >> and the rabbi passed away and the son-in-law took over even though the son was eligible and it was accepted. Now do you know why the son-in-law was elected and not the son >> didn't? Oh interesting. So if you remember and I don't expect you to remember that that's not fair. It was three weeks ago we spoke about the fact that the Rambam says that the most important thing for a son to take over is not. So now obviously we're not talking about a dummy right we're not talking about someone who is totally dumb and just has even for you need to be right. So just in terms of intelligent and wisdom and whatever experience and whatever it is. So there is something interesting here when there is a ben. So it seems to be that all the dush of obviously applies when it comes to a regular son versus son-in-law. It might be that we need to see this idea of giving the position in is do we see that as so then son son son son son son son son son son son son son son son son son son son son son-in-law who cares or it only goes to whom to biological children very similar to what to me very good me does not go to the sun it goes to whom to the sun and if there is no sun there's no such a Okay, it goes to the sun. Okay, many times maybe it happened but not not in. So the idea is it's very interesting according to the he says in a very general way. Now this is as we already prefaced last week it's only in places that there is no voting process. We already spoke about the fact that what that in most of the raanot today what do we do? You have a contract and you have a contract and it says three years fibers. The problem can be when you have a lifetime contract. A lifetime contract. A lifetime contract means what? You are there forever. Which means we are taking you only out of the shoe with a stretcher. Right? That's what it means. So when someone receives such a contract the lifetime contract then it might be it might be that he has uh a tina that his position will go also to whom? To his children. Okay. Have that in mind. Oh wow. Okay. One. Oh, that's wonderful. He should we should do a tribute dinner for him. Give him a nice award and tell him and run him out of town. Yes. does not want somebody else. Nothing doesn't have the right to do that. >> Yes. So we said only if this rabbi was hired with a contract here in the cases especially in the ancient times it was not by a contract. He was just there he was there until he died and then he has the right to give it to to his children. Then the only question is let's say if the if the son is not un is not worthy to be a rabbi at all or even in cases that there is a yusha what would you do when the kahila says we don't want him not because he's a terrible person not we just don't like him we didn't like his father either we had nothing else to do he was there but we definitely don't like his child okay a father like a son like his father and we don't like we didn't like the father, we don't like the son. Can you f because we know it's a it's a recipe for a disasterreation somewhere >> somewhere. Mhm. >> It's correct. Realistically it's a recipe for a disaster. Okay. There was one more question I think. No. Okay. Yes. is the continuation of my life. >> Okay. Yes. >> How is that measurable to know that the law. So, it's interesting that they're able to stand against the other. >> Very good. We talked about it a little bit a few weeks ago. We talked about wisdom can be somewhat measured. Okay. This uh rabbi uh this the son I don't know finished just uh and he knows everything by heart and he knows everything that someone asked him and the son-in-law is not or vice versa. So for wisdom there is somewhat of a measure even though someone can be very humble and not reveal all his wisdom. The ratime part how can you how can you test it? So we spoke about it and the answer was we don't know at least I don't know how do you measure by eating a special by having a longer beer there like having I mean how do you measure do you give them a test you know do you give them a test you you put them in a place that they can fail and you see what's happened I don't know how do you measure something like that yes So don't forget that um at least back then in the I'm not talking about or even before that when it started I I guess it was less uh less known less important less expected you know yeah I I'm I'm with you meaning let's say the sun is very wise and has a lot of mind but has you know zero empathy to people. Okay. And the other one has little less wisdom, maybe a little less, but he's very sensitive, very, you know, very generous heart, very kind, very sensitive, very helpful to the congregation. Um, look, I think it goes back to a different question of what is what is the true functionality of a rav in a kila and every ka has different needs to some extent. Now there there is a lot in common you know common denominator between all those positions but sometimes it needs to be almost like a hand payload for a specific community but I agree that this this consideration is not there at all. Yes. >> Sure. Agree. >> I don't know. But the translation the Hebrew is what does that mean? I don't know. It's not but they call a lot of it's how much do you need in Okay. Okay. So let's see the so you were thinking oh those rabbis right only rabbis rabbis rabbis and the shamashem also have the problem I couldn't skip that I'm not going to talk only about rabbis I'm going to talk also about became older and he wants to appoint his son to be his assistant like from time to time even though the son's voice is not exactly as pleasant as his father says if his son even though his voice is not exactly like his So I don't know if he's saying that gently or he's like saying that not gently. Okay. Um so if the son really helps his father in other things as well that cannot say a word. Oh so I don't know yet what is but I can tell you one thing. Rabbi speech is 20 minutes. Musash it's three hours. So I don't know what you think about rabbis but when it comes to that can be horrible. Okay you have a son whose voice is terrible and you need to listen to him because his father was the can you imagine that. Okay so says them again says the following and this um this case applies when They gave him a lifetime contract. Says because he got a lifetime contract in a lifetime I might get a cold. I might what? Lose my voice for a shabas. So obviously what I have the the kak to appoint someone else. Who is the someone else? Obviously the first one that comes to mind is my son says and even if he didn't get a a lifetime contract that was the custom in that place that what that the children will be will take over after their fathers and there was a there was a general principle in all the appointments in gadul the high priest the first the son takes over even though there are other people what are and they are more worthy Okay. And then he says, now this is interesting because this is a piece of history that we need to know. We asked the question uh for many weeks when did it start? When did it start that the children will take over after their parents die after the father died in terms when it comes to rabinicic positions? He wanted to say that it started from when hi. Now we know h what time was h zero. He came from Bav. He learned by he came. Do you know remember the story? He came to Israel and the first question that he was asked by wasabat. What do you do with Bashabbat? How do you bring the sacrifice? Even though whenever you see this uh suggest what was that was the first pes that fell on Shabbat but you know there is a reason for that not now but the idea is that Hel came from Bavl he they appointed him to be the president and since then really all the dynasty comes from H. Now ask yourself a question which means why dava why specifically it started then okay open for speculations you understand the question to repeat the question the question is very simple why that was the starting point that rabinicic positions were given by yusha since he >> what was before if you are a rabbi your son is not necessarily going to take over >> what >> okay so one suggestion is mllo started the dead generation >> not exactly in that generation it started even before okay for 300 years they had this about that we did I think we we did it downstairs right okay so what else beginning of >> okay so >> did what >> um beginning of might started even before Yeah. And what >> anything to do with them being aim? So they Okay. Maybe more more more speculation. Think we will not know exactly but just a speculation. >> Oh okay. So now we are looking out of the box, right? We are not looking internally. Okay, we have what do we have? Houston, we have a problem. That's the right. >> We have a problem. Zero CE means that what? That in 70 years from now, the second beta mikdash will be destroyed. 70 CE the beta mikdash second beta mdash is destroyed. Who destroyed it? The Romans. Okay. So from 0 to 70 and this is a speculation. We don't have a proof for that but it might be you need to be in a very delicate dance with the Romans. Okay. The we call it the tension or the relationship needed to be stabilized. Just imagine you create relationship with the Roman Caesar and then this guy dies and then someone else comes along. You want to create what? Stability. And this is very interesting because again it's just a suggestion. We know the says they allow the which is the entire dynasty of the nu to what to have a special haircut that's like the so they don't look so apart from the that they you know had conversations with and also to learn uh Greek why is that so when they speak to the Romans they look almost the same and it's in order to create that line of communication to the Romans so it might be that is in order to what to stabilize the connection between the Jews and the Romans. So that's one possibility. Very good. Second possibility. Your guess will be as good as mine or maybe a little bit different. But think what else can be why would he that we know that he was so humble, right? You remember the story with the guys asking him on Friday afternoon all those crazy questions and he had so much uh savlan and then uh you know with the girl in Shabbat that he was the one to bring the convert you know we know so many beautiful things about why would he be the one to say okay my son his son what his son yeah and then I think it was raashim Think about I'll give you a hint on the roof. I was about to tell you tradition tradition. Tradition which means don't forget nothing is written yet. Who is the first cle who is the first person that always hear what his father has to say is the son. Who can be the one to maintain the murat? You can have a wonderful student but the one who observe the father the the per the the theic authority all the time everywhere is whom is the son it might be that in order to cement the and the masur if you wanted to say it's only the family members it's the son so that also might be that when they start developing toashe you keep it in the tradition itself okay so that's the second suggestion do we The third I feel like in an auction. understanding. >> This is also might be this is also might be I will I will tell you that I think that the idea of the torp and the passing on the toe not that it started there but in order to try to cement it and to try to establish some kind of one tradition was so important that basically says okay the kids will take over. Yes. >> In terms of meritocracy how could somebody like ever has gone in because look look at his back >> that what we said last week three weeks before I left to the to the states we brought this money the sorry thei with the same story when they removed you remember the confrontation and they saw they thought maybe but is the and then they thought about and the bi just says okay but rakaka has no lineage so we will just skip over him and we don't know what says thei says He would he was said and he says says he's not wiser than me. I'm probably wiser than him but I don't have but I can now create one. That's what said and we will see in a minute we will see the change. So yes about this uh that there is a line of tradition. So that's part of the second uh here it might be internally and externally might be I don't know exactly how um you might be right I mean who was the schlumpion yani ordus it might be there around the same time right do I got my time correct might be yeah it might be okay so in conclusion Flip the page to page seven and then you see something interesting. Rabioan lived where? Israel and he died around 278. So you're talking about the 3rd century. He was he was really he was old. He was 92 years old when he passed away. And um so he started already in the second century but he he was a known amor around the 3rd century and it says there are three crowns meaning if you look at the way they constructed the the table and the and the no the altar and the aon and At the table there is a crown. There is a what do you call like a crown. Who took the crown of the he to bring sacrifices and therefore it belongs to him and to his descendants. the table took over the is the wealth the where the Torah is. It still sits there. Anyone who would like to what to put that crown on him is more than welcome. Maybe you will say ah the is not that important [Music] which means if you become you become almost like what a king and not only that which means in a way you can give orders so to speak to whom? To hashem in a way can quote unquote whatever that means order God to do things for them. Okay. I'm less interested in the meaning of what he says. I am more interested in what in the content which is now third century. So first century second century you have what? that the children are taking over their parents. Right? In the third century, Raban is changing it. What does he say? Does he say that in order to learn Torah, your father needs to be a He says it's sh it's just there and everyone everyone can pick it up and put it on his head. Which means there is nothing to do with your father. Everyone can do it. Now, what caused the change? More people learning Torah? Questionable. >> Okay. Do you like politics? Everyone like politics, especially rabbinic politics. That's the best, right? Rebi died when end of the second century that's it Mishna is composed not sure about written or not but composed and then he died okay who takes over okay after him who takes over >> when you say it's not that's his grandson. What do you know about his grandson? >> He's quoting the It's true. It's a very diplomatic way to avoid the question. Okay. Rebi Rabishimon Ben Rebi who was a known and he took over. But after Rebi passed away there was already a bit of a of tension. Who was one of his most dedicated student who did not take over even though it might be that he was really the one who should? Someone very famous, Rav. Rav Rav was a dedicated student of Rebi, but Rebi did not give him a full and then he found himself where in Bavl. He left Israel and he went to Bavl. Then you also had Barapara. Bar Kapara who was a on the border between Tana and Amora. He also had some uh runings with Rabudasi. Rabudanasi was a very very strong personality, incredibly righteous, wise, incredible organizer, a diplomat, but it comes with a comes with a territory. Let's put it like that. He was criticized many times that what that he leads his okay that he leads his uh his dynasty with too much of what of of let's call it like that with a what would you call it? uh with too much of um of what >> authority might be authority. Uh we will say today in the language he takes himself too seriously. Okay. And then the grandson who was at the time of um was the grandson of Rabi but uh was not highly regarded. Let's put it like that. Not that he was not totally, you know, he was disregarded, but he was not highly regarded. And I would imagine that if we were correct in our analysis of why it started with Hel. So first and foremost, at the time of Abioan already, the tradition is being now already being formed. So I don't need necessarily father son father son that's a b they don't talk much to the Romans okay in the time of the so you don't need quote unquote what a representative the Jews basically start concentrating on what internally how to build this Jewish community after there is no almost okay is gone is not exactly the image of his grandfather and therefore you need to But to increase the number of more and more because maybe maybe if a thousand come to a bet maybe two of them will be what worthy of that's by the way even in the time of the anyone here is an accountant a CPA anyone is here and good in math even if You are not that good in math. We are talking about 2%. Okay. We're not even talking about it's 02%. Sorry. Yeah. 2%. 02% of people of students who come to the midrash come out. Okay. So the idea is what? The idea is that in the third century in Israel says and not only that he gives you a carrot. It's even better than because you are in a way I don't want to say control God. This is not the world. You can really even encourage God to do what you want if you are a really okay. So now really the conclusion of the conclusion for modern people this subject method was like what what are you talking about like the son taking takes over the father but then when you start realizing it says ah this community I know and this community I know and this community I know so it also applied even in our times that's a b how do you overcome it with contracts and reelections that's how you avoid um the issue most of the times not yeah not always the issue of and the third is what we are missing in today's world the way we look at it is that there is need to be some kind of uh symmetry between the rabbi and the kah the needs of the kila the the the son can be a tremendous but the ka change he's not he's not the saying or the the son changed or the rabbi changed and the ka did not whatever it is sometimes you need to have some kind of what of a buy in from the ka to the rabbi because if not just uh speak to himself so that part was not exactly emphasized in this in this subject matter but it did touched on some of the principles of the matter of katusha that a father can uh give us an inheritance not only his uh his uh material uh possessions but also what is spiritual possession possession and then position and then how does it affect the community that was really almost not discussed here which is definitely missing you are with me which means the question was does the father has the right to give it but no one asked is that good for the community or That was less of a of a consideration. Yes. >> People who were in charge of choosing to such a degree that he will also become the way it was and his father who could recognize. >> Right. So now maybe I have another question. Do the children of the search committee has a yusha to sit on the second search committee? But for that next year