Pesach/Passover Products and Ingredients by Rabbi Yissachar Dov Krakowski

so uh you know the the subject was left rather open for interpretation so I will take advantage of that and uh there's a subject that I think is unique maybe to being in uh in Israel in terms of PES Kash in America you know by and large we're used to a unified standard in castros meaning most things the majority of kosher products are ou certified and what's not are probably Asos that are at least you know trying to keep similar standards to the OU and as such you know most of the products that a person sees in the supermarket as k p are going to be by certified byos by certifications that they're comfortable with in arol you need a glossery you know for all the names of Theos that you find in the marketplace and uh some of them look very impressive they have a lot of as you'd say in the m I around and they say all sorts of fancy things and some of them have all sorts of fancy halic claims about the various Hur the various stringencies if you will that they might behold and the question is how do we decipher what we really want to eat or not do we trust everything that it says in the label is there some sort of you know regulatory body you know in general you see somebody says 100% juice you assume it's 100% juice if something says you know whole wheat you assume it's whole wheat although that's also a tricky one some things are reconstituted whole wheat meaning that they'll take white flour and they'll take bran and they'll mix it together and they'll call it whole wheat so that that's actually a little bit of a tricky thing I didn't mean to Spook anybody who's you know a health freak or anything like that but uh yeah it's not necessarily so um in fact that are very large Israeli bread companies they put in their whole wheat bread a little bit of CH a little bit of coffee powder to give a slightly better coloring um but we're not going to talk about bread today because that's ostensibly not P um so back to the matter at hand so you know wine wine has a line he says don't confuse Jews with Judaism so I'm going to say don't confuse with and don't don't confuse claims to Hal observance we'll discuss a little bit of some some of the big issues with making ker laes products okay now I'm going to start with something which isn't so Hally oriented more a little bit more technical now you it's interesting you know if you travel around the world and you ask people how many Jews are there in the world they think there's billions of Jews in the world World okay and when you tell them you know no really the aren't you know it's you know it's may be debatable depending exactly how you classify who's Jewish right if it's h Jews or if we're talking about Jews who associate themselves as Jews Etc um or various other ways people have wanted to Define exactly who's Jewish but you're you're talking about something but definitely below 20 million um probably below 50 million and you know they're always shocked and they'll start arguing with you about you know if that's the case or not and I'll tell you well if there's so many Jews in so many high positions in so many places there must be lots of regular Jews well they don't realize that no Jews are just they're successful they end up in the right places they have we have behind us he puts us in the right places and if you you know also if you disc because Israel they assume Israel is this massive you know piece of land they don't realize that it's a state smaller than the size of New Jersey um it's always in the headlines so it can't be you know that people are fighting over such a tiny little piece of land especially when the Arabs have so much land but in the in the actual Mark world of marketing they do a lot of research before before they take on some sort of extra certification so you know how worthwhile it is for companies around the world to be koser certif certified might be debatable but year round it's feasible especially if we're doing year round certification which means that all that they have to ensure that all their ingredients are Kosher so anything which is you know just a matter of of locating the right ingredients but it's not necessarily an extra cost so that's simple to do it's not so expensive and so for a big Corporation a big manufacturer to pay you know a few thousand for a Kos certification fee and uh you know a few other minor expenses right if Coca-Cola would pay $10 million for their Cashers probably nobody would feel it in a scent on their bottle of coke okay so that's not such a big deal as long as they ascertain that all the ingredients are Kosher when it comes to P there's a lot more stringencies both in terms of the ingredients and in terms of the production lines and when we kosher a production line it means shutting down the line for a minimum of 24 hours plus because you need to clean the line and it needs to be not used for 24 hours before koshering before cering so as that being the case it means you know we want to had a story with a with a Israeli importer who belong to the same Corporation as the manufacturer of serial of a serial company abroad and they wanted to import seral from them and there was an issue importing at certain times of years of Kes without getting into the particulars of kades but the new grains until after the second day of PES are we don't aren't to be consumed it's a matter of um dispute whether that pertains as well in the diaspora or not or whether it's like Trum it's mitz Israel and uh there are those who are stringent about it in the diaspora as well the OU actually has a web page that gives a lot of information about the dates for anybody who wants to be stringent from what date they should start being particular about different products many of the rabbis who work for the OU myself included are stringent stringent upon that in the diaspora as well um nonetheless it would be close to impossible to certify products for only half a year so therefore will certify them me around then the consumer can make the decision whether they want to purchase those or not but back to the matter in hand in Israel since one definitely needs to keep it and until recently most of the products in the market were Israeli manufactured it was taken you know that that everything that's that that that in Israel is is going to be yashan and therefore whatever is imported should also be yashan should be from the older produce so when we discuss with them koshering their line they said for the you know and this is one of the largest Israeli Distributors they said it's not worth it to us shut down like we produce more in a day than Israel Buys in half a year so it's not worth it to us to shut down the line for a day in order to kosher eyes so now you know I'll tell you a little story we don't certify Pepsi but I I know the rabbi certifies Pepsi and he told me that one of his Mim who went to kosher to to Casher the plant for PES so he was you know there and he was working with with all sorts of different apparatus and the plant manager came down from the corporate level into the production areas and started asking all questions about the kosher rizing process Etc and then he told him he says you know when you finish this work it looks like a pretty arduous job AB bet you come and we'll we'll drink a cheers to that so he said okay whatever he finished late at night he figured the guy probably went home but he said he's going to try his luck he went up to the corporate level sure enough he was still there waiting there and he pulls out a bottle of scotch and they start drinking and he tells him he says Rabbi how many months long is is Passover so he says months it's it's a week the guy was choked you know on the spot he's like what a week and you guys can't live without Pepsi for a week okay so it's you know for a week of of the kosher market it's not all that worthwhile around the world to kosher eyes therefore ingredients that could be made kosher still have challenges in getting them to be kosher because very often the manufacturers of those ingredients I'm not talking about the final products the ingredients themselves the manufacturer is not interested in so now we already have difficulty with PES ingredients on an industrial level and it's yeah if you're baking cake at home and you're taking a little bit of potato starch or matam depending if you Brock or don't Brock and you take a little bit of cocoa powder and a little bit of sugar or whatever sugar sub honey or whatever other sugar substitute you're using on PES right and you mix them all together with a you know an AGG or two and some other stuff you bat up the eggs really well separate them cuz PES you need the stuff to rise without being able to rise and uh you put in the oven for a little bit and you have some sort of cake that tastes either it tastes amazing or it doesn't but that's beyond the fact so that's not so complicated because they're very simple basic ingredients but when you make things industrially months ahead and you want things to last and you want lots of varieties cuz you have to compete with the rest of the market it becomes much more complicated to have all those finite you know those Tutti Frutti flavors and uh all sorts of different uh you know fancy preline and whatever types of flavorings for all sorts of different cakes and ice creams and sbet and and snacks and candies and everything else so it becomes much more complicated and forget about when you get to the colorings which you know probably some of the people in the room here would rather that there people don't have those colorings anyway so what might end up happening is they use the things that are more poisonous for PES but that's a different story um and forget about the forget about all lot of things cuz whatever we can use is fair game although I'll tell you something a lot of the products that use MSG year round when it comes to PES don't use MSG okay they use less there's a lot of products especially like Deli products and hot dogs if you want Franks whatever you want to call them you want those types of products usually the PES version is considerably less unhealthy than the year round version we we stock up on those products always buy the the PES hot dogs in Mass especially after PES when they go on sale because they say k PES on it so we you know buy them stick them in the freezer and uh it's they taste better actually and I think and they're certainly you know I don't know if I'm going to vouch for their health but they're definitely less unhealthy anyway you know they're not as bad it's a you know working in the field it's not as bad as people make it out to be it's not as horrendous as people make the you know the deli industry sound about all the garbage that goes in there there's gar there might be some garbage and some some deli has more than others but it's not you know there's there's a lot of real meat in there also it might be meat that you needed to grind up finely in order to be able to eat but it's it's real meat and sometimes you know it's depending on the exact fat content it has less fast fat content or more content but that's things that they can blend in they can control um so it's complicated to be able to manufacture and the manufacturer also has to be willing to ceriz the line so much of the PES products in the market even in America are actually manufactured here it doesn't mean that what's manufactured here without an OU is the same thing as what you buy in America with ou even if it looks like a similar product even if it has the same brand name on it and that's for the very simple reason as we mentioned before the ingredients are hard to come by and the better ingredients that be supply and demand because there's more hash that are willing to use them so they're going to be more costly and uh they might be more sparse so it's harder to get to obtain those and they won't use it for anybody who will allow something else Additionally you know year round there's certain knowledge which is more common place to have and there's a lot of a lot of the issues that we have in the world of Kos are issues that pertain only to P Kos that's because in regular cashs right usually you're not going to use unless it's a product that is a meat and dairy product it's not going to be it's not going to be B it won't be meat and dairy mixed together you don't need to mix meat and dairy together in order to create most products okay that's number one number two is there's very few things especially in aod and age as the world progresses and they're consider with they're concerned about you know the carbon print and all that type of stuff so there's much less product products that stem from animal based Goods so you still have you know there still a gelatin that's ostensibly from I don't want to say ostensibly tra because that's that might be a whole different cheer on its own right but you might have you still have gelatin that might come from you know from Pig and or or not koser animals and you might have uh and you still have glycerin probably the most common ostensibly trfe product on Market because you know it's kind of like bleach you know I remember my mother had her pro has her products that she buys only you know only brand name and she has the products that she probably buys pretty much only generic name unless there some huge sale on the brand name so one of those that she buy generic name is bleach she won't buy Chlor rocks right it's three times the price so she'll buy whatever the gentic things cuz bleach is bleach is bleach so glycerin is glycerin is glycerin is also true no matter what its source is meaning there's no difference in The Taste between glycerin which is a great if you don't need something to be very sweet it's sweet and it doesn't have any calories to it so it's a great sugar substitute and it's used a lot in the in in the in the in in in food man facturing and baking in candies Etc it won't there won't be any difference what its source was from but it's basically something which is separated out during the oil making Pro process of almost any oil so it can be plant B based or it can be animal based in Europe it's a much more significant problem of being animal- based so too in the you know in the Far East um but in much of the world it's not an issue whereas when it comes to pesak many many many products come from Kitz based Origins meaning you that the wheat was used as a catalyst at some point in time whether it's an alcohol based thing or whether it's some sort of sugar thing and after making the flour and whatever it is they use some various malt products that are left in the wheat because that's kind of refu it's the garbage so it's sold for cheap the main point of it was for the flour they got the flour out of it now they can use utilize whatever is left of the product and certainly for ashkanazi Jews who are M on kitot so kitos you have once you expand it to corn and rice and all sorts of other products like that again there's an unbelievable amount of products that are manufactured as byproducts in some form or another from these sources so most of them have ample substitutes they're just often more expensive I'm going to give an example that's in almost every food product you buy out there citric acid okay so citric acid yes it can come from a lemon in theory in a lemon you have citric acid in Orange you have citric acid in tomatoes you have citric acid okay but it would be very costly to try to somehow and I've never heard of anybody isolating citric acid from lemon juice it would be extremely costly so there are you know three basic or four different basic different methods that might be used to obtain the uh citric acid just to simplify for you the process of making citric acid basically you have you you you have bacteria that feed off of a sugar and what they excrete after feeding off of the sugar will be citric acid okay so that's oversimplified it takes a week for this to occur and you have all sorts of reactors and uh paraphernalia that it goes through it's usually a large site in order to manufacture the citric acid but that's the basic idea so you can make that with starting with like a wheat malt which is usually the cheapest option you can do it from something like a corn mash which would be like a corn malt and that would be the second cheapest option or you can go to something like a white sugar beet sugar or cane sugar or something like that it will be considerably more expensive okay so in order to make it so there are places that manufacture it from white sugar for whatever reason um there's actually an Israeli company that does this because of PES um but nonetheless it's much more combersome much more expensive so that's just an example of a very common ingredient now a lot of these ingredients are assumed year round they're chemicals and you know even if ashas want to receive it with Ash which very often the Lesser G so to speak will more so rely on a paper trail that they're going to want to see certification for every ingredient that comes in because they don't know what ingredient really needs kosher certification or not because they're not such experts in the world of food manufacturing so during the year they'll rely on all sorts of things and they'll rely on basically you know any and anything that sounds you know chemical bio chemical Etc but when it comes to PES time that might be a very precarious thing to do um because like I said not allas are created equal and uh if the one who's originally certifying it assumes okay it looks like just some sort of chemical process I'm not even going to get too involved in what it is he might be certifying something which it might be outright it just goes through you know a whole bunch of machinery and comes out goes in one end and comes out the other end nothing happened to change it no matter magic so if that's the case the ingredients might be much more problematic and Ash that has less no than another Ash will very likely accept ingredients that are substandard into their PES products this is something which occurs all the time probably between suas and P we have at least four or five stories that that come up with companies that we certify here in Israel and the other hash that are certifying them for the Israeli Market that they've accepted ingredients that we're that we're not accepting and it causes problems because they want to know why aren't we going to accept it and whatever it is and usually we can and we'll call up very often and they they don't want to hear it because they know the second that that they that they do hear it if they are mael if they accept what we tell them they're going to be in the same place as us which will basically put them in the same place as you know one or two very very strict Israeli Asos and nobody's going to need them anymore because they don't have any magic tricks in their in their mared Poppin bag so um that's that's really the story with pesak products now I know it sounded a little bit Bleak and I don't mean to be Bleak at all there are a lot of products and every year there are more and more products that are Kosher certified by gashos number one number two is some of those products you probably don't want to eat um number three I might have just saved you a lot of money your husbands might be happy um that's but the the truth is there are a lot of products that are fine and the more you know we we always talk about that the consumer Market is what generates the need in Israel the market is very different than the market in America Market in America it's true everybody's used to having everything Etc but they can't demand directly from the manufacturers there a much longer chain till it reaches back to the manufacturers what they need to do to be kosher enough for their consumers to be able to sell and pay whereas in Israel that chain is much shorter you're here they see the manufacturers it's their own labels are they being bought or they not being bought so the kosher consumer is really the what is really the one who's most in control of the level that the cashs will be of the products that they're purchasing because if they don't buy things so then they're going to go they're going to raise the standard to a standard that people won't buy but really what I meant to bring out is like this is that one should be prudent not to just buy anything that says you know and that they should really look for the you know the better Ash that should be ultimately what they're looking for um you know they recognize that they know our good if they don't know they should ask a competent Rabbi you know the local Orthodox RAB I think that's the jargon right so you should ask somebody that you trust and is in the know to see you know if it is ashk that you can rely on and now we'll touch upon just you know one more element which is the confusion around the labeling in Israel and it's not just you I work in K and I'm also Al confused sometimes so we I want to explain a few things you know we in America there's a lot of regulation on the labels and there's no understanding that it's a PES label so that the ingredients that it says in the back don't have to doesn't have to match the fact that there's a p in the front right there's no understanding that so if it says k p and in the back it says you know and we're not talking about a gab product but it says wheat flour or something like that the back ingredients so then you have a problem whereas in Israel they say okay just for PES I'll put a k PES I'll stamp it on the front and I'm not going to bother changing the ingredients panel okay it's obvious I didn't use wheat flour in my k p product and it will continue to Bear the the the the the wheat in the ing you know the wheat flour in the ingredient and have all sorts of warnings for including allergies Etc and on the front it will say k p with a very reputable nobody seems to have too big of an issue with that here so that will put to bed that you know usually if there is a good on the front or wherever it is don't pay too much attention to what it says in the ingredient panel you know it's you know there's actually a story here in Israel with M that one of the big bakeries about about 20 years ago sold their on P and the guy didn't want to sell back to them after PES so it went to court this was you know extreme loss because you also sell in the so you can't really use the C without as permission it's got complicated and in court they ruled that the m is not a real M it's only a it's it's only like a what do you call it no like a religious you know um symbolic type of uh thing and that it's not a real M of of course after PES it goes back to its original owner okay which that lends to a different question than was so that's that could have been a different topic for you know why some people do or don't sell their um but we're not going to get into that right now the idea is is that uh that that that in Israel there's a there's a general allowance for you know this a also in you're allowed to build your Suka on the sidewalk you have set you for for eight days or nine days something like that is the law now they also have a certain amount of time there's if even if they give you if they want to give you like a ticket for leaving on the sidewalk you have a week to dis to dismantle it so a that allows that wiggle room that you have about two three weeks that you can have your sukup on on public domain here in Israel so there's a certain amount out of wiggle room they understand they're not going to make every manufacturer change you know reprint labels just for that one week that they can't live without Pepsi for so that they'll have the you know that the label might say something which is outright on the back of it and on the front of it say but then there are products where the itself writes underneath it you have you know some sort of bat or it says or right year round used year round certification only doesn't include PES and then you have on the top ink jetted next to the production date it says or or if it's a dairy product it might say right or in the abbreviated version and uh the question is who's certifying that for PES the bat symbol on it said the doesn't say anything either way and this is in a different place and some inkjet on the product now in theory the reason why the bat actually said that they want that that because they didn't want that if the r say it should be misconstrued that they certify for because maybe something that the RAB felt could be certified for PES and they felt it shouldn't be certified for PES or they weren't comfortable enough with certifying it for PES um but nowadays in general they will demand um that if it's going to be ink jetted on a product that again they more reputable for sure and they don't view it as such they will require to say ranad next to that inkjet and if it doesn't say rabad then it can be assumed that the bat even though it says underneath it that means if it's not ink jetted somewhere on this product so that's one uh clue to the to the to the Maze of of PES is you know pretty straightforward if you eat kit so then and you rely on the certifying it so but now there's another thing which is okay some products have come up with these types of terms or they've come up with terms to describe certain items that might be a matter of discrepancy as to whether between various authorities as to whether they're kitney or not so I'm just going to give a brief explanation of litit and letin which are kind of similar one to another and that's basically as follows kitos there were two main concerns with products should that being kitos one is that they could be confused with grains because they look like grains and they're used similar to the grains or whatever Hal grains I should say things that could become kits right rice looks like a grain and you can make rice flour out of it you can bake from rice flour so it's similar to a grain various other products would fall into a similar category that you can looks like a grain you can grind it and make it turn into a grain then you have products that are that the other reason we're products that were often stored together with grains and therefore often would have grains mixed into them so you might have a product nobody makes nobody grinds mustard seed that makes mustard bread but mustard was traditionally stored together with wheat especially especially in certain countries so therefore there's a xra on mustard as well certain products have both of those conditions now there were products that weren't around when Theo when the ashkanazi XO and the ashkanazi enactment against kitos came into a play and at that point in time they they they they only made the act the rabbis only made the enactment on things that were eating so there's a matter of discrepancy whether new world food would fall into the same category so while peanuts are a legume and most legumes were included in the X so there were those that said well peanuts that we only discovered those in America right after when we came back when we came from the from the himim To America that was when we discovered peanuts and therefore peanuts weren't really around during the okay it's it's mentioned in you have to know what that means when yov told Ys to take when yob told his sons to bring to Ys Bim if that's what we call or not but that's a different subject anyway but it wasn't something it was common place to eat and therefore that wasn't something that's mentioned in the list of the original kitney is G there are those that would say similar thing about corn corn is also mostly a North it was a North American Discovery so to speak a new world food and it wasn't something that was common place when they made the XO in Europe those that argue that maybe it already made its way to Europe it's that's a historical uh point of contention anyway there is a product that we that that's very very often used nowadays and that's called canola oil now canola oil comes from something called rape seed okay the rape seed belongs to the mustard family and if you see it on the side of the road you think it's mustard like a wild mustard however it's has a very very very bitter taste that's number one and number two is the oil that we have is doubly refined so those that wanted to say that this isn't considered mustard because nobody ever ate it and until they found the way originally canola oil was discovered by trying to make uh crude oil out of out of uh you know natural resources out of out of plant resources so that was the original Source afterwards it was refined and that's you know the case with many things when you know they sell very cheap olive oil in especially in Israel you find it sometimes in the supermarket which is refined it says refined olive oil which is basically the same thing as the Shem LA with the cheap olive oil that you buy for lighting candles like or Kan or something like that and it's re but that has like this very darkish tinged hit much darker than the normal alvy green color and uh that's unrefined it's after you know they really press everything out of it and it's unrefined and it's more of a crude oil so it's actually it's probably not poisonous cuz it's from an olive and you can eat the whole olives so it's not poisonous but it's it it's not very tasty and until and but if you refine it and you pull out all the garbage from inside of it you'll end up with an oil which will be similar tasting to virgin olive oil and that will be would just be a much cheaper option to have virgin olive oil so so to the rape seed oil that we buy the canola oil what stunted is it goes through a refining process to take out all the bitterness from it and it turns basically from something that the only the only thing you can think to use it for would be crude oil into being food oil which is which is healthier than S some of the other options on the market that's why it's gained popularity in terms of saturated fat and similar types of um oil related issues and the question is is that kitos or not so there are people who want to say that it's not kitos it's be become generally accepted amongst the major casos agencies that it is kitos and right B used to say for the simple fact if it looks like if it if it looks like kitos and it grows like kitos and it's the same exact he says you know we're not going to start differentiating then it is kitos we're not going to start differentiating between you know the exact Taste of this this variation or that variation they thought that that was you know too much splitting hairs so what they'll do is they'll write and the truth is I don't think it's a smart idea even for them because most people have no not a clue what it is and and so most people say well liftit I don't know I never hate LIF it on PES before and they'll leave it behind even if maybe somebody would have convinced them of the argument that it's fine anyway so that's the story with when it says that on a product or that's generally what it means that it contains one of those um rape seed byproducts and uh it's definitely not OU standards and uh that's that's I think that's the end of what I have to say about a guide to Pro prodcts for today if there's time I'm happy to take questions how do I balance that okay so there could be many reasons for that or a few reasons at least for that um number one is if it's a simp you know very simple regular spice it's Pro the difference probably is is when in the process of their of the when in the season of pesak spices was it processed so that when when hours was done we did it right after the cleaning in AAR of whatever needed to be cleaned or kered respectively and therefore it was kitos free when it was done later on they had done some kitos runs for various Israeli stic certifications and then they wanted to go back and do some you know let's say say paprika paprika however you want to pronounce it for argument sake so it could just you know if there's no oil added to that paprika then it's very likely that all that happened was that it was just when in the process it was done when in the season it was done it could be that some of them have oils added it if you look carefully um some of them might say it in the actual name and others might just say it in the the ingredients you know especially if it's a spice blend okay others there might be certain items that again which will usually be again back to what I said that when you're not in the no you're not in the no so there are a lot of people if it's a spice they didn't hear of before they'll say they'll assume oh maybe that's kitot and they'll label it as kitos whereas oh you maybe didn't label it as kidos so sometimes that might be the reason again once they viewed it as kital they might have packaged it once the line was already kitos how particular you have to be about that that's a different question when you you can ask your of um but that's uh you know so so there might be certain things uh coriander so some of the Israeli ashas will view view coriander as always being kitos even though really only the coriander seeds are kitos and the coriander itself is not kitos just as an example people use it here also and there are people who don't use it in the states also um quinoa the question was about quinoa kinoa quinoa however you want to pronounce it so the story with kinoa is as follows for many years the OU took the vantage point that it's kitos because it's a grain it's often stored together it can use as a grain in all forms of it and it is often stored in similar places to other grains because of its health value and because of people having increasingly stricter diets for all sorts of whether it's just for because people become more aware of bad health and good health in terms of dieting practices or whether it's because there's more allergies around Etc than once upon a time or whether it's that we're more aware of those allergies that are around people have much more restricted diets than they once had so a as time progressed and there were many more people who were gluten-free you know as Celiac Etc and various other their allergies there was more and more pressure to try to see if there's any way to be modate back to what we said about New World food so of mosha Feinstein was from the Trailblazers of maintaining that anything that wasn't part of the original G wouldn't be part of the G on nowadays and rosha ate peanuts in his house on PES you very often if you were if somebody would come into Rosa's house on pesak he would offer them a peanuts and they were in the Shell um I I wasn't so at least I'm not so to remember having seen it ino's house but I saw it by his children um so combined between that and the fact that they oh you looked into it from certain countries that where it was where they looked into it they found that it's no longer grown next to wheat often not not uh stored either with wheat and similar types of things and therefore they decided that based on rosha chuva and what they felt was AOS and felt very strongly that it shouldn't be viewed as Kos and therefore the OU went ahead and certified it however we are particul should say quinoa on the label for those who are who don't eat kin I personally don't eat kin was also one of the as to rash and and the truth is even Ramos's children maintained similar to RAB bski which was as follows rolski said that that rosha meant an item that doesn't have all the all the conditions of kitos but something which meets all the conditions of kitos even if it wasn't around then that's included things like peanuts that's nobody makes peanut bread out of just grinding up the the the the peanuts and it doesn't uh you know it's not necessarily stored with wheat products or anything like that just because peas were right and it grows similar to peas that's not that's not enough of a reason to assume it kitos he felt that all the more so since the U does view peanuts as kitos we certainly should not go out in the limb and view K kidos nonetheless because of the health advantages the decision was that the OU would certify it but it needs to stay say clearly it would be some sort of mix that you buy and it has quinoa in the mix then it would have to say on it very clearly that it has quinoa in it so in most again there's generally a stricter view on kitos than in America most of the large Asos assume it to be kitos additionally most of the raban I think the r views it as kitos because again when you have a large s population and many many of the people anywhere are eating kitos you feel less of a need to say that something shouldn't be viewed as kitos if it's not if somebody wants to buy it even though even though others might view as K cuz they feel it's not so you're not stopping them from buying it so in Israel that's you know in America once OU certifies it so that a lot of people will just assume it's totally fine and buy it and use it whereas in Israel there's a little bit more you know this this this it's there's a little bit more reluctancy because it's still assumed to be kitos by most