Perilous Journeys: Avraham & Lot | Rabbi Shmuel Goldin | October 28th 2025

Sure, a kumsh is probably even better than the sor sheets. Okay. >> All right. Before we start, just a note. Um, I felt a little bit and and some other people actually spoke to me about the fact that we got sidetracked a lot during the last during the last class. So, what I'd like to do is ask you the following, please. If you have something very pressing and pertinent to say on what it is I'm saying or to ask on what it is I'm saying, please feel free to do so. But other comments and other questions which are not actually necessary. Please save them. I'll give time at the end of the class for any comments or questions but not during the class. Yes. >> Decades of experience. Have you heard anybody who didn't put what they had in? [laughter] >> He asked. He asked in all my in all my years in the rabbin and had never meet anyone who felt that what they had to say or ask wasn't pertinent. Probably not. All right, but give it give it some thought before before you interrupt. All right, we're going to actually today and you're we're using kumashim. We're going actually today to explore two journeys that emerge beneath the surface uh in in the in the stories that are before us. And we're actually going to be dealing with portions from Vera and Leelov for the next two two month two weeks. I I often introduce this year with a with a story. We were once, my wife and I, many years ago, we were once standing on line for a uh flight through Tower Air. Do you remember Tower Air? All right. >> So, I'm standing on the I'm standing on the flight and someone comes up to me and says to me, "Do you want to sit in the mahadin section?" >> No. I said, "Do I want to what? [laughter] Do you want to sit in the mahadrin section?" And I said, "What's the mahadrin section?" "No movies," he said, "and no pitus," which is un immodest dress. My children, the youngest, who are twins, heard and they said, "Movies and pizzas. We want the pizzas." And they started jumping up and down. Clearly, it was a breakdown in communication. I believe often that the Torah is telling us things that we don't hear or we don't see. And I've told you that before. And I believe it's the parach in the text that can often give us the greatest gifts. We're going to look at two journeys today. The journey of Abraham and the journey of Lot. And I believe if we follow it carefully, we will see that beneath the surface courses some very significant messages for for our attention. We're going to begin with in Vero and Peric Gutes Pakal. All right. And we're going to look from Pak to Puket. Scene is as follows. This is one of the most disturbing scenes in the Torah. It's in many ways we're starting with the climax of Lo's journey rather than its beginning. One of most disturbing moments in the Torah. What happens? Two two angels come to Saddam and they encounter Lot and Lot says come come to my home and they don't want to but he insists. That evening suddenly great crowd surrounds Lot's Lozole and Stone doesn't allow guests. So they begin to knock on the door and they say throw out the guests. Give us the guests. Let us let us deal with them. Lo turns to them and says not aim please. Don't do this terrible thing. >> Here are my two daughters who have never known and never been with anybody. Take them instead. >> That's what's said in the text. Now, whoa. How do you explain such aberrant behavior? How how what kind of explanation could you have for someone who would say I want to protect my guests at the cost of my own children? So I believe that in order to understand we have to back up and we have to take a look at a pattern that emerges in Loe's journey to that moment. We begin if you turn well I'm turning the page here. We we begin with um brachimlukim yud to yud gimmel. So 19 10 to13 now the scene is as follows. While you're looking for the page scene is as follows. Ara and lot are parting ways. They've traveled from Karan together and they're apparently the testimony of the text is that their flocks are too great to to graze in the same place. There are other reasons perhaps for the parting. And Aaram says to lot, let us part in friendly fashion. You choose where you want to go. I'll choose where I want to go and we'll be in different places and everything will be fine. we get we can't we can't be together. So the Torah tells us he lo lifts his eyes and he sees the plain surrounding the Jordan. This is particularly interesting because the area he's looking at now which he the Torah says is fertile is the Dead Sea area which is nothing. Right? So that >> chapter 13 sentence 10. So in P 11 is called chooses to live in Karayard and then in Pukay you find the following statement. Aramitan Yosherit Val Sedon. Abraham lives in the land of because it stays in the land of Cananan. Lot goes to the cities of the plain. And then that strange phrase valone literally he tented until Sodom. Now what's strange about that phrase? Everything. Number one, the verbal. We've noted before in the text that the Torah usually uses one of two words to speak about someone living somewhere, right? Yosh or Gourv to settle or to be unsettled. Lour means I'm staying in a place where I am not comfortable yet. And ves indicates that I'm in a permanent place or place where I'm comfortable. What's what's the word in that verb? >> Well, so what does it tell you about? Is is that permanent or impermanent? It's even more impermanent than lore. Right? In other words, um my tent I'm I'm tenting to Sedon. Now then it says the word is a very unusual word in the Hebrew language according to the it is an internally ambiguous word. What does inul mean? The rabbis ask is until or right and does it up to and including or up to up to right if the to if the law is that you can have can't have a a suka 20 amai let's say does that mean that it is only closure if it's up to 19.99999 or can it be 20 vet Aladd. So what's the Torah telling me about load right now in those three words? He's not sure. He's not. He is. And look at the next sentence. The Torah testifies these are evil people, terrible people in Saddam. So what's happening? You have lot coming to Sud attracted by the wealth, attracted by the richness, attracted by all that SOM has to offer. But they're ra and he's coming from Aam's house. He can't do that. So what you do is he doesn't know what to do. He goes up to Sud. Is he in? Is he out? He's not sure. Odd. Not not sure. and one day in, one day out, one foot in, one foot out. Doesn't know that's that's where he is right now. He lives in the shadow of Saddam. Now, follow the pattern. We're going to go to the next perk to the next time the Torah talks to me about lo and that is perk yudalid sentence 12. Now the scene again while you're finding the page the scene is as follows. The scene is that Lot has been taken captive in a war and a war between a series of kings and he's captured and he is taken and all of his all of his everything that's with him is is taken. He's captive. He's a he's a hostage. Familiar, right? Okay. So, what happens is Abraham runs to save him and does. But before that, the Torah describes Lot being captured. And look at what it says. A vu. They took Lot and all of his belongings. The son of the brother of Ara, meaning Aram's nephew, the who? Yoshave bisto. Why does the Torah have to tell me that? Right. I know he's in because the Torah is telling me that he's no longer that something has happened already. He is now sucked in and he now is part of Snow. Now let's look at the last moment that the Torah describes. Take a look at brachit perk y utet puk alf and you see how we're skipping. We're actually skipping numerous proim to see this pattern. I bar hashem it was years ago where I noted the pattern and I don't know how I did it because this the the uh the proof is so far apart but take a look at the first chap puk in chapter 19 and here we have the the introductory sentence to that disturbing scene with which we began The malim have come in the evening yos >> who used to stay in the gates right you say it in [snorts] noash or right he is your husband is well known where he is sitting at the gates with the top of the people you know very very important people. So load isn't now just Bistome. Load is a big shot in Sedome. Lo load is someone sitting at the gates. Do you see step by step what's happening? Now we can begin to understand begin to understand the aberrant behavior that we spoke about before. Load is a not a terrible person. He's not a bad person. He's weak. And he is trying to do something impossible. He is trying to reconcile two irreconcilable worlds. I I bring guests into my home. Who am I? Where did I get that from? Right. I throw out my daughters. Where do we get that from? >> Stone. I'm trying to take those two worlds and put it together. I'm saying that I can live in Sedome and still be Aram's nephew. He can't do it. And that's what the Torah is telling us. What the Torah is telling us is that as we travel through our world, we should be aware of the things that are irreconcilable with what we believe. And here is a situation where Lo and and Lot makes two two very very serious mistakes. Mistake number one is he believes you can live in the shadow shadow of Saddam and remain unchanged. Right? And we saw that he changed. Second is that he believes he can reconcile those two irreconcilable worlds and and he just can't. Okay. Yeah. >> Was not affected by being rescued by Abraham in the war together. >> We have no way of knowing. Question. Was he was he affected? We have no way of knowing. The Torah doesn't tell us. >> What do you think? >> What do I think? I think he probably was not. I think he probably still This is a man who is weak. You see, and part of his weakness is that he doesn't recognize his own weakness. In other words, he really believes. I don't think Abraham, for example, would have tented unto Saddam. Why? Because Amram knows you can't sit in the shadow of a stome and not somehow be affected by it. Lo doesn't get it. And I think someone who doesn't get it doesn't get it even if he's saved by his uncle. All right. Now, now let's take a look at Ara. Turn the La Havil. Turn the page. Well, don't turn the page. I've got the page. All right. Take a look at the the onset of Aram's journey. Peric famous. We know it. Say it by heart. Separate yourself. Go. And note that the the words are are out of order, right? It should have said it should have said leave your father's home, the place where you were born and your land. Right? It's going in the opposite order. Your land. What? Why? Why is it doing that? So, numerous commentaries say it's because we're not talking only about a physical leaving. [sighs] We're talking about a psychological and philosophical leaving. It's easiest to leave my land. It's harder to leave my birthplace. It's even harder to leave the home of my father. And that's why it's not in descending order. It's an ascending order because it's not just a physical journey. It's a spiritual journey. Set yourself apart. But kazal say that this statement is actually more complex than it seems because it's one of those statements where you have what I call a dialectical phrase. He's being told to be part of and apart from at the same time. What do the rabbis say? Rabbi say what can you on one level? What can you compare Aram at this moment to? You can compare him to a beautiful jar of perfume that's sitting in the corner. As long as it stays in the corner, nobody benefits. If somebody picks it up and walks around the room, many people benefit. So Aram is being told say kazal leave to make a difference. And by the way, it comes from the text too. What what does Hashem say to him? Shem says to him, Right? So all the all the nations of the world will be blessed for you. I'm not telling you to shut out the world. I'm telling you you have to have a balance. Hashem is saying you have to have a balance. You have to be apart from and a part of at the same time. And that challenge that challenge is is monumental. That's really where Lo failed. He didn't wasn't able to strike the balance because he was trying to reconcile what wasn't reconcilable. But Aram is being told your mission is to be part of and apart from at the same time. And we see as Aram's story goes on. We see Aram interfacing with various figures and various people and various circumstances. He interfaces with parro and avi and sometimes some of the commentaries say he makes mistakes when he tells Sora to be his wife to say she's his sister. Some commentaries say that it was a sin. Some say no then try to explain it but the fact is he's interfacing with the world and everything is he's he's not totally separate. He's part of and will even try to help the world as we see when he argues for Sudom and Amorra right again which is that far to the extreme and yet Aram's praying to God and by the way it's if you read it it's a little bit what he's doing right in other words God forbid God you should act this way right in other words and and then we we should take a we'll take a look at that interchange at another point but that's an example of him interfacing with the world but there comes I think one turning point and that turning point strangely enough is a turning point that we are very very familiar with and take a look at perk yudet pag >> perk yud 12 sentence one. Okay. Oh, no. I'm sorry. No, no, no, no, no, no. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Take a look at take a look at 22. Sentence one. I was sending you back to the 22. Abraham. It was after these things and God tested Abra. What's this introducing? >> Theo. Okay. Now, let me ask a question I've asked you before. Does a Torah follow chronological order? [snorts] >> Uhhuh. >> If you say yes or no, you're not right. All right. It's, as I've told you before, the Torah follows chronological order except when it doesn't. And what I mean by that is the rule is it's chronological. The rule is that Aram comes before and the stories follow each other. There are some points in the text where some commentaries not all where some commentaries will say we can't understand the flow as it exists and we have to move things around. The Ramban for example doesn't accept that anywhere and he says Ramban says the Torah is always chronological. I don't accept and I'll show you how and he and he tries to explain every time that the others the commentaries feel that it should be shifted. Problem is we learn as children Which leads to a very interesting question. Take a look at that. I told you to look at what words are superfluous, right? [snorts] Why does it have Torah have to tell me this is happening after that? Right? Doesn't make any sense. If it's chronological, you don't have to tell me that. It's happening after that. That's what I'm going to assume. So, what might be the reason for the Torah ever [clears throat] using that phrase? >> To what? >> To connect. Correct. To connect what is about to occur with what came before. Okay. So, let's say that's what it means, right? That that in this case the ao is connected to what came before it. But there's a problem. Look at perk 21 and it's just one page earlier. Beginning with sentence 22, I'm sorry. Abraham, the king of the Philistines comes to Abraham and he says, "Abraham, I see God is with you. And now what I want to do is I want to make an agreement with you, not only between us, but between our children and our grandchildren. And we should make this agreement a bris. Bris is solid. It's a covenant. We should make it a bris between us that we will not do each other harm. That we will this is that we will have this this time together. And how does Aram respond? He agrees. He remmonstrates Avi for some things that happened. And we get a sense of Avi. Aviamelik is as an ancillary figure in the text. Aimelik emerges, I think, not as someone bad, but someone who is a king that allows his kingdom to be bad. In other words, that's what Aram says to him, right? You don't come to a you don't come someplace and all of a sudden they're asking you who that woman is, right? And here he says to Avi Melik, "Why did you steal my my my wells?" And Abi says, "I don't know. I never happened. I I What do you mean you don't know? You're a king." So anyway, so so Abi Melik is is tenuous. But Aram is very clear. If you take a look towards the bottom of of the paragraph, [snorts] they make a covenant. Okay. Now what is the connection between making a covenant with aime and the alqaeda? Right? So you have an answer. >> We make an alliance with your enemies. Your children are going to be out. >> Whoa. All right. Did you hear that? >> We make an alliance with your enemies and your children will be carbon out. The Rashbam agrees with you. The Rashbam who I've told you is my favorite classical commentary because he stays to Pashhat says there is a connection and he therefore interprets the Aedo in a revolutionary way in a way that nobody else does I don't think but but it's it's certainly stands true to the flow of the text says the Ram says the Rashbam God is turning to Abram and saying, "You are callous and indifferent with the welfare of your child. Now take that child to Paria and see what it would be to lose it. >> Wow. Powerful. No. And and as you said very very familiar to us what the what the Rashbam is saying and Kazal say that this bris that Ara makes is is by the way not good. He should never have made it. The Rashbam is telling us that the Aedo is the result of the bris. God is basically saying to him, I I I have to sensitize you. I you you're not treating seeing the preciousness of your child the way you're supposed to. Which means that Aam until now has been dancing a dance trying to be apart from and a part of. Here he steps over the line. right here. What happens is he step in his desire to have an effect on others and and be with others and have peace with he steps over the line loses sight of where the balance is of being part from and a part of and that's why the occurs according to the >> of the we we hold a as a symbol uh you know whatever and now you're telling me really basically not so >> well I okay very interesting question he says what's the sh first of all let's understand I don't think the rash bomb is dismissing all of the other explanations of the because it is very difficult to understand why is god testing someone he knows is going to do something right so it's he's not rejecting those but he's saying there's another layer but even if this was the only layer. I would still say the ao is a a pivotal moment because it's the moment where Abraham is told don't step over the line and that's very important as I'll make clearer later. Okay. So what happens therefore and at this point what is saying is you you know that dance you're doing between being apart from and a part of you've stepped over the line you've gone too far to one extreme you've got to pull back and what's fascinating is that a from this moment on changes. If you take a look at the text Ara before the Aedo is preaching to the world after the Aedo, two things happen. He buys a plot for Sora's grave and he sends Elezar out to find a wife for Yets. You don't see any preaching to the world in Kayor. It basically he's pulled in. Now, do I think he's rejecting the fact that he should preach to the world? No. I think he was so sensitized to this that he's saying, "I c I can't preach to the world at the cost of my child or at the cost of my own or at the cost of my future." Therefore, he pulls in and he deals totally with his family in Paris. There's nothing dealing with the outside because he's been pulled back. Yes. I've heard this that the main problem with this deal I know was making a deal not just for himself but for his child children and grand. >> That's correct. >> Other than that would it have been okay to make a deal just for himself. >> All right. The question is would it have been okay to make a deal just for himself as opposed to intergenerationally and the Rajban points to that intergenerational as the issue. The the fact is that I believe a bris with aime would have been wrong under any circumstances. Under any circumstances this was even worse because he was endangering his child. And we'll see when we get to Yitsk we'll see that Yitzk sort of does better. I think we've spoken about that once but now take a so what so I said pulls in and starts dealing with his family. Now the first so the two major events that occur I told you he buys he buys a plot for Sora and he sends Elezar out to find a wife for Yeets. How do those events play into this journey? Right? Is there anything that they add to Aram's journey of being apart from and a part of? Take a look if you will at one of my favorite sections of the text because I believe it's just amazing what lies beneath the surface. Take a look at perkiml the beginning of paras perk 23 puk alf and read to yourselves well let's say from puk olive to puk good from 1 to 10 that's enough to get the idea and I'm going to ask you a question on it so so read it carefully Yes. >> Going back for a second. What is wrong with the bris between the two of them? >> What's wrong with the bris is because number one, the rabbis say this was land. He that Aram was supposed to bequeath to his own children and he's making a covenant with people on the land which he shouldn't. But I believe it's deeper than that. You don't make a covenant like that with Avi. Avi Melik is not evil, but he's not someone you can trust because he's shown you can't trust him. Basically, he's pushed you out of his land. Basically, he he's his his servants steal your wells. In fact, Aram remmonstrates him right in the beginning of that conversation and says, "Why did you steal my wells?" And and says, >> "Making, >> well, all right." So, so this is very very very very tough, right? In other words, under what circumstances do you make what deal, right? I I thank God I wasn't in the seat that had to make that decision, right? I you know, how do you save the hostages and at the same time defeat Kamas? I mean, all right. Anyway, anyway, all the hostages came back, which is something great that which un I I never believed it would happen. I never believed that they would give back all the hostages. >> The live ones. >> The live ones. Well, I never believed they would get back the live ones because I felt that they would always That's their That's their trump card, right? That's their bargaining ship. Okay. Right now, you read you read the beginning of Parasara. I'm going to ask you a question. If you were going to write this narrative, how many sentences do you think he would need? >> What? >> Yeah. >> Four. Three. Right. Abraham needed a grave for Sora. He went to the B. They told him to do Ephron. He bargained with Eron and he got the four sentences. Baby, the Torah dedicates more text to this than it does to the ao. There's one more one line more in this to this event than the ao. Why is it so important? What's happening? So will say there are a lot of things. Number one, it's the first time we see that we're acquiring a piece of eratil. But there's something else happening here. There is a a a a battle taking place. It's a quiet battle. It's one that you miss. Take a look at Puk Daled Aram turns as he begins this negotiation for he turns to Ben and he describes himself and he says I am a g vto a stranger and a citizen together with you. Now that's one of those dialectical phrases that I told you about in the Torah itself. Lour means to be strange. Lvet means to be comfortable. What are you? Are you a g or a tosh? You can't be both, can you? So what's he saying? So the rabbis some some commentaries say that he's saying I was a g and now I'm a toshv or if you let me be a toshv I'll be a tov. I don't think so and in fact I think that and I I saw that I thought this myself borashem and then I saw the rabbi salvich says it even better than I do. All right. What what what is it? What Gared Vtov the if you ask me the best sociological definition of the Jew across history. You can't get better than that. G Vtosho I am a says a stranger and a citizen together with you. That's my balance. I am part of and apart from at the same time. It's a very thin line. And that's the line I'm walking. Right. Right. Right. And and what happens? Take a look at the next line. The children of turn to Aram and they say to him, What do they say? What are you hacking for? Right. What are you giving us? What you Why do you have to say you're avoid cemetery? you need a separate grave. [snorts] They're not just being nice here. What are they trying to do? They're trying to suck him in. They're saying to him, "You don't have to hold yourself apart. You don't have to be a gervos. Be one of us. We're we're being generous. We we'll give you whatever you want." And Aram says, "No." And it goes back and forth over the next few sentences. And all that is happening, if you look in the text, what the Torah says is it happens, it keeps repeating. It's all happening not privately, but it's all happening and everybody is watching. Everybody's watching. Why? Because they want to see what comes. What what happens is Avam going to fail or is he going to succeed? And what you see in this paragraph I believe is Hashem doesn't tell him what to do. Right? Remember this is he comes to this of his own valition is that Aram towards the end of his career is saying I now understand what God wants for me. I now understand that I'm supposed to be a g vto that I have to walk that line. when he told me it was to be a part of and apart from at the same time and that's the line I have to walk and bes are trying to destroy that and this battle between Ara and Bes is so significant that if it would have gone the other way God forbid you and I would not be sitting here today we would be Hittites and I don't know many Hittites [laughter] right that That's what would have happened. So Abraham withstands the pressure to give up that balance and therefore he is able to succeed. Okay. >> Some say this is a right the absolutely I believe this is some say that this is a one of his tests and I I believe no question I believe it is in some ways I think it's the greatest of his tests because again he's acting on his own and he's saying God doesn't doesn't have to tell me what to do here I know what I have to do and I'm going to take you one step further one step further. The next event that takes place is he sends I told you he sends Elezar to find a wife for Yeets. And where are his instructions to Eleazar? Go back to where I came from and bring a wife from there. Hold on a minute. >> What? You're supposed to leave. You You were told that you're sending Eleazar back to the very place that God told you to leave. What are you doing? And I remember when I first heard this as a kid, I said, 'Well, Avam doesn't want his son to intermar. But guess what? There ain't no Jews anywhere at this point, right? Anyone he marries is going to be intermarriage. So why is Avam sending Elezar back to where he was told to leave to find a wife fork? So there are all sorts of possible answers. There are those who say he's saying to him, go back to my family, get someone from my family. But interestingly enough, Aram never says that. Elezar says it when he's talking to Lavan and Busu. He he he then says it because he knows that that will be very good diplomatically to say, but Aam never says it. But maybe that's what he meant. Some say that the people of Cananan were worse than the people he left behind. And the problem was that the people left behind were so not were so iffy that he could have been sucked in as opposed to Kanan where he looks around and he says I can't be part of that like Saddam. But I believe there's another possible answer. Aram turns and he says I am frightened. I'm scared. What am I scared about? I'm scared because I was able to maintain the balance because of my journey. I came from somewhere else. I came here. I'm not part I didn't grow up as part of the Canananite world and I was able to withdraw when I needed to withdraw. I'm looking at my son Yitzk. He was born here. He and Yav doesn't know this yet, I think, but he's never going to leave. He is the only one of the patriarchs who never leaves Erit Israel. Aram says he's not going to be able to maintain that balance. So, what do I have to do? I have to get someone for him that takes the same journey that I took. I have to take someone from my from the land where I came from and have them travel here and be the foil for Yitzk. Be the one that'll keep Yitzk on the right path. And by the way, who who's who sees the world more clearly? Yitzk or Rifka? >> There you go. There you go. It's Rifka who comes from outside who is able to maintain that balance. So I believe that the two events that close the Aram's career underscore this very balance that and what we've seen and this I'll sum up and then I'll take any questions or comments is that two people try were challenged with the same challenge challenge was to be part of and apart from to be a g vata lo failed Aram succeeded and the Torah is telling us of those journeys beneath the surface because it wants us to learn. And what we're learning is this is by the way our our challenge and the challenge of Jews across the ages. On the one hand, have we picked up things from an outside world? Sure have. I've told you cholant isn't in the Torah. Kilta fish is uh right. These are these are things that we right that's this all is a result of where we came from. We picked up things we h however we've managed at least a colonel of us to stay apart to and that's the challenge and I actually spoke on this last evening to a group of se to a seminary uh crowd a group of uh and and I said to them this is the you're going to have a world where it's even harder than ours because your world, the outside world is invading in ways that it never invaded ours. Right? These kids are growing up. That privacy is out the window. Everything is online. Everything is there. Everybody and lives are destroyed online. By the way, kids are bullied online. It gets horrible. And if you're bullied online, it doesn't just stay with the bully. It then goes to the to the world because the bully's going to take it and send it out. So that's the challenge. The challenge is how do we ourselves and our children and our grandchildren learn to maintain the balance and to say I'm a g vto. Okay. I'll take any questions. Yes. So it's interesting that you have three shallots in safer gracious with lo and then you have with and then you have a that's right with all three >> our hesitation >> no time if the decision would have been different our whole history would >> right okay so she is saying that the trump there's a there's one the trump is a tomb that we sing the the notes shall is a very unusual usual note. It's a note that it's a pazare which is the longest note three times and it means it means you're saying it means a change. I also feel it means hesitation that in those moments the person or people involved are three times are it's in when Eleazar uh no first >> first is with and >> first right first it's lo when he's told he has to go out of he and he hesitates the second is Eleazar when he has to find a wife for and there are those who say he wanted his his own daughter to marry its look. It's it's a medish. And then the third time it happens is when Yoseph is is propositioned by his master's wife and he refuses. And she's saying every time that occurs, the sha it's a pivotal moment where if the decision would have gone the other way again, we wouldn't be here. And I also believe it also shows hesitation that each one of those cases the person was not sure. So now Lo was the son of Huron. >> Yes. >> And Huron himself >> was the one who said well if Abraham comes out alive then I'll you know he himself was very >> correct. Correct. So each one of right now and by the way again I don't have time for this but what's the difference between Haron and his father Terra or is right his brother Ter? What what's that? It's very interesting to think about. Okay. Yes. >> So I mean a of your of the uh problem of the drink with ALA. [snorts] Is there any U message in there with respect to the AL problem that we have had since Donnor whether we engage with say the the conservative whether we engage with interfaith dialogue uh or not or we do like >> all right okay you're asking a very interesting question a very good question which is and the and it understand where how you draw that balance def depend will define who you more Jewishly, right? In other words, if I'm a part of then I'm more this way and if apart from right so we so we believe we've got the balance but everybody else believes they've got the balance too. I think that it does tell us things. First of all, I think it it cautions us concerning the agreements that we make with people that are outside us and the world outside us. what can what can I allow to come in and what do I have to keep out and and it's speaking to us today in a very literal way when it talks about the covenants or not covenants or agreements we're making with people that want to kill us. All right, that's number one. Number two, and and again doesn't fall into the same trap. Number two, I will say just give you my opinion on interfaith dialogue. In the 1950s, the prediction uh in America was the orthodox movement was going to die and the future of Judaism was the conservative in reform. Today, if you look at American jewelry, I mean, unfort it's tragic, but the main threat to American jewelry isn't conservative and reformed Judaism. They're they're on the they're on the ropes and it's assimilation. It's the outside world. And that's a battle that we all have to film. So I believe whereas we were very very careful earlier on in having interfaith dialogue, I believe here we can be more we should be more lenient. I used to when I was a rabbi in PTOAC and and in Englewood there were times I would be invited to speak to conservative groups and I always took it because I would always have someone come up to me after I spoke and say I didn't realize an Orthodox rabbi would say that. I I they they don't understand who we are. So if and if we stay totally apart, there's no chance of us changing them. So I that's what I think. Yes.