Myth and reality | Rabbi Shai Finkelstein

Today we are starting a new subject that will take us probably for a a week two or three and it's really about um something that I will call a myth. We have a story and I think all of you will at least have some kind of a recollection of uh the Maharami Rottenborg. Um he was uh in Germany at the late 13th century and the story is that he was captured and he was captured by the governor and the governor basically asked for tremendous amount of money that will basically will um cause the Jewish community in Germany to really have no money and the Marame Rottenborg says do not pay the ransom and then he died there and then there was a very wealthy guy who decided he is going to ransom their bones with one condition that he will be buried next to the Marami Rottenborg and he did it. Okay, that's the story that everyone knows the myth. That's the story. What we're going to do today is to try to understand if that story really happened and not that I have any sources, you know, I didn't speak to the Maharenborg lately. But the story is is can a story like that can happen? Because if we will prove that our assumption is wrong which means the Mame Rotten book will never say to the Jewish community don't do it. Uh so maybe the story is wrong and also we will see some other sources that points to different directions. Now the purpose of the sh is not to burst your bubble. It is not to destroy holy cows or any other things like that. It just to try to see that whenever we have a story or when we have a tradition we should also try to what to see where are the sources what do we know about it what else do we know about it what are our questions and then to see what we find okay so first an introduction so if you don't know who was the Marametten book so here is a little bit of an intro in introduction it says the following ben that's his name his abbreviation is the maharam So he was probably born in wombs in around the beginning of the 13th century. Now by the way just as a side note we'll have a lot of history today too. There's something very interesting. We know that the communities in Germany what we call kahilot shumpayra magensa and ws were destroyed in 1096 and the first crusades they were destroyed the center the religious center in Germany was also destroyed and it moved basically to where to France and it's very interesting that in the 13th century at least in the middle of the 13th century The religious talmudic center moves back to where toy >> to Germany which is very interesting. the rotten um okay we will learn about him a little bit more he learned from his father and in book he's one of the most famous books books in Ashkanas the from where from Vina from Vienna and he wrote the the orish ben that we don't know much about him and then at one time in his life he what he traveled to France and he learned by who was most well-known figure in France and at his time at around 1242 or 1244 there was another very historic event, not a good one, which was the burning of the Talmud. Um, we're not sure if it's 1241 or 1242 or 1244, but see by himself for himself how they burned the Talmud, which by the way was a an additional level in the war against the Jews. Which means if at the beginning anti-semitism or through the crusades was to okay convert or we will kill you here it's not I'm not going to ask you to convert. I'm going to ask you to do one thing. I'm going to take away your sources your religious sources and just imagine we don't have it backed in a cloud or a PDF which means the manuscripts that you have that what you have. If if it's gone, it's gone unless you were able to copy it somehow by a scribe who did it and you were able to hide it. Which by the way also explains why around the 13th century the level of scholars and scholarship in France went down and moved more to where to Germany and because there's just no quote unquote no like you go to a library and there are no books. So after the Rottenberg saw the burning of the Talmud, he wrote a a eulogy, a lamentation on what he saw that we say every year when towards the end of the keynote. And then he says Kazam Gmania after that he went back to Germany and um and then he dwelt in different cities and the most famous one was Rottenborg and that's why he's called Hamaram Mienborg. Now his two famous Talmim students were Rabi Mai or what we call him inoti and the roenu aer and yakovai was murdered through the crusades again. There was another crusades in Germany and Rabi Yakov Raber Rab he fled Germany and he found himself where in Spain the Rashba who was in Spain he was like the he was not he didn't have any quote unquote formal role but he was the leader of the Jewish community he I guess knew the ro or he heard about the ro or he saw him and was impressed and then he appointed him to be a Rav and then Later on we have his children and his family is there in Spain which is by the way very interesting. We are not talking about the rosh today but the rosh is one of the only puskim in the middle ages that basically integrated two traditions the tradition of ashkenaz Germany and France because of his rabbi and also he was introduced to a new tradition which was >> Spain and you see in many of his response are he's trying to convince the people in Spain that they are all wrong >> and they tell him there's only one person is wrong and it's not us. So stop trying to convince us and what he did the ro it's very interesting he had his own sh with his own family with his own little Ashkanazi people and uh he he understood he can't change them and uh he basically created for himself a little you know neighborhood however his son who was his son very famous Balatim Balurim is Rabakov Benasher who was already in Spain for a while for a long time he did a lot of things that are more um similar to asphardi rabbis rather than ashkanazi rabbis. So that's a little bit of history about his talmid. Now what do we know about the Marame Rottenborg? So the Marame Rottenborg tried to flee Germany and why did he do that? Because he saw the writing on the wall. He saw that Jews in Germany are not uh not going to uh have a great life. Okay, I'm not talking about the 20th century. I'm talking about the 13th century. But it's not only that. It might be I don't know if I'm bringing it to you here. So I don't want to say it before. Um but no, I'll give you that as an introduction and if we'll see that later on, we will see it again. But it seems to be that the Marame Rottenberg wanted probably to make aliyah at that time around the 13th century there is what they called aliyah like 300 of are moving from France to Israel. It's not 300 but it's a lot of rabbis who are moving towards some of them made it some of them were not able to make it came back but some of them did ended end up in Israel and it is interesting it's not for now I will maybe talk about it in a different sh but what was the approach of the scholars in France and in Germany regarding ali Allah because leave alone that there's no nefes. I'm not talking about I'm talking about the ability to keep the mitzvot or to have a land or to be able to learn to. So that's was the the debate and also it was dangerous. There's a famous that brings him to that says you shouldn't go to Israel stay where you are but we're not going to go into it now. It seems to be and there are some documentations that says that the rotenberg really wanted to make aliyah. So how would you go from Germany in the ancient times in the middle ages to Israel? You will go through Italy. In the Italy there is a port and from there you will take a boat and from that boat you will go to where? To probably Yafo. Yafu. No ash. Okay. And probably not so much in but rather more in Yafu. Okay. Or aqua. So he is going to Italy and there someone recognize him probably a Yehoudim a Jew who converted to Christianity he recognizes the Marame and he obviously tell the army and they capture him. So as I say here in 1286 the tried to escape Germany but he was captured and he was put in prison >> where was that? >> In Italy >> the what? >> In Italy. >> In Italy he was extradite to Germany. So he's back in Germany in a castle in a prison. Okay. By the way, just as a side note, we know for sure that even when he was in prison, he was able to teach his students because we see in the chuvot that the ro says when I visited my rabbi in prison, we spoke about that and that or the maharam sends an answer and says I don't have books here so I write to you from my memory. Okay. So, Okay. So there is a book by the name the customs of wombs. This is from the 16th century. So now we have a testimony from the 16th century on a story that relates to whom? To the Maharami Rotten book from the 13th century. So you have 300 years goes by and the the story is being mentioned 300 years later. Okay. In this story. So what's the story? The story is the following. So the story is is being told in the following way. Our teacher our rabbienber Our teacher, our rabbi, Rabi Mayor Rottenber, he his wife, his daughters, his son-in-laws, all of them, and everything he has left Germany. Is that sounds like a little trip? No, it sounds like what? relocation, right? Almost like, you know, Lot with his daughters and he says to them, you know, come with me and they they obviously didn't listen to him. But here they did listen to him. So the entire family is going to uproot itself and to go. Okay, Gibbona. Where is Lombardish Gibona? Italy. >> Italy. >> Okay. What's the English word for the >> Lombardi? Veona. Yeah. Okay. So, that's Italy. So, he finds himself [clears throat and cough] in Italy. Sh. Now, take a look at this. He wanted to >> stay there. >> Stay there. at slow callimo until what >> everyone will gather and go with him. Now he already has his family. So who is he waiting for? >> Probably students congregation other people who heard that the rotenb is what >> is making aliyah and then suddenly oh now it's dramatic. And here there is an Egmon is a bishop, a terrible bishop, an evil bishop. Basilia. >> No, no, not from Basil. Maz Basilia. >> Basilica probably comes from a church. Okay. So he went he was passing by that city and with this bishop there is a a Jew who used to be a Jew and now he's a convert and his name is what? He recognized our rabbi, our teacher and he told the bishop. So the governor of that city captured Roenberg, put him in prison for four days and then Rod >> he extradite Mahami Rottenberg to >> Rudolph who was what >> the king of Germany and the rottenborg died in prison that's his site 19th of which means 1293 so seven years after he was captured he died. He was buried only when it >> the following uh >> 10 years later >> 10 years later almost to the day only then he was buried. What was she before that? For 10 years >> in the morg for 10 years in prison. >> Why? >> Cuz he tried to escape >> money. The governor, the king knew that he will get tremendous amounts of money for him, life or dead. So he's waiting. By the way, he was not the only one. When you learn halot from aut of morning, you see many times that rabbis were asked even in the 16th century in the 17th century my relative was captured and the guy asked for a lot of money. I don't have it. What should I do? Should I start aute? Should I I'm on I shouldn't put fill in now until the governor is going to change his mind. So we have discussions about it. So you know now we are talking about in 24 hours you know we need to do a funeral and things like that which was obviously is the best way to do it but in ancient times it and it's not that ancient 17th century 18th century it's not that ancient. Yes they arrested them and sent him back >> because he fled Germany. >> You can't you can't leave the country >> not if you are a scholar and I can get money for you >> Jews. It was it's very hard for us you know I just tell you something from England because England is more of my expertise okay in England in 1252 London came to I think Edward III and he begged him let the Jews leave England and the king told him you still have money I can still squeeze you you are not allowed to leave England there's no no the European Union everything all the borders are open right I'm sure they are very happy about it so All the borders are open. People can travel. People can go. There's no such a thing. You can't leave without a permission. >> They had snug out. >> They were somehow. And yeah, >> they probably pretended to be a merchant or maybe he faked a document or whatever it is. >> The whole family was taken down. >> Yeah. Yeah. Everyone probably. But he for sure. >> Yeah. He is for sure. So then So for 10 years He was not buried. So then uh there is a a generous spirit on one very very very wealthy person in ink vitik. This is his name of that very wealthy person. He gave tremendous amount of money to the king of Germany until the rottenborg was buried where in wombs which by the way I was there two years ago and we said some from the Maramettenberg on his grave. It's kind of weird, but in his lifetime, he didn't want his students to bear off. Don't say anything. The story does not say anything about it. >> That's why I brought that as the first as the first story. And this very wealthy person at the end also died and he also was buried next to the which by the way it's true. You see the two graves together blah blah blah. I'll take the question in a minute. Just one second. But the story is telling us that what that they had to pay tremendous amount of money in order to be able to bring him to burial after 10 years. Now he doesn't say anything about what >> that the king told them that they can ransom him before he died and the and the told the community >> don't do it. This part of the story does not exist here. Now you can assume maybe you know if they had to pay so much money in order to what to get his bones 10 years later maybe there was but this story this source does not say a thing about it. Yes. answer my question. My question why why the guy come before the money then when you lie where are you going to die >> right so it might be that he didn't have the money yet B it might be that there was a change of a king that's also might be or also or or at the end or maybe if the story is true and the mam says do not ransom me they waited a few years until like his his decree will be gone too I don't know yes >> they had some treasury bonds that didn't come due later >> might be they were waiting when the shekele and the was good for good. Yes. >> What happens to his family? Is anything >> No one knows. I I I not No one knows. I don't know. Okay. So that's story number one. In order to try to check if story is correct, what do you do? You try to find different sources that tells around the same story. Okay. Yehuda. This is Arahuda Benos and this is late 13th century mid4th century. Now who is that? This is the son of the rosh rauda. Okay, we know Rabakov because he wrote the the toim the two. But the rosh had other children and one of them was Ravuda. Now his testimony or the way he describes the story is little different and also it might be a little bit more close to the truth why >> closer in time >> closer in time and his father was the talid of the rotten book. So now let's see how he describes the story. So first and foremost he says do you know why my father the ro left Germany? Because he saw what happened to whom? >> To his rebi when he saw that his rebi was captured he decided you know what >> I am not waiting to be captured. I'm just trying to somehow get out of there. And he says that my father's rebi which is the for he is giving a totally interesting story. He says, "Look, the governor told the Kahila in Ashkinaz how much money he wants in order to release the Marenborg while he was still alive." And the Kilot raised the money. However, the governor says, "I want a guarantor." And who did he pick? The Rosh. My father says Ravuda. And while they were raising the money and the ro become a guarantor the maharam passed away. >> So now there is no living there is only what a dead one. So what do you do for So the governor as we say in Hebrew, he says like that. Take a look at the at his cop. He says like that the the governor the non-Jewish governor says like that because the Marameber was alive when he was put in prison and because you already raised the money and you the rush you were the guarantor meaning he is your responsibility not mine therefore whatever you promised me >> I want even though he's what >> he died >> how old I'm Sorry. >> How old >> was he when he died? >> Who? The Marenb. >> If we say that he was born in 1220 and he passed away at 1283, he was 63. Yeah. If we are right with all the I mean no one knows exactly but >> from starvation or sickness. >> Oh no. Probably sickness and to be in prison for you know seven years. I would guess that it was not easy. >> And also 63 for that time. That's true. It was an older person. So according to this story, so this is the son of the rosh basically says my father was put in a terrible position. He now needs to pay money all that money that basically emptied the community to a dead rabbi rather than >> to someone who is alive. So what does he do? So the rosh realized he shouldn't stay in that city. He should what? >> He should try to flee to a different city. And then Ashkanas and because he knew that the king of Germany obviously has friends in all different places in Ashkanaz, he decided he needs to what? to leave Ashkenas because he was worried for his lifeda. What is toula in Spain? >> Toledo. Toledo. So he ended up in Toledo. >> What happened to his life? >> It was >> We are in the middle of the story. We can't read a book and jump to the end. We can, but it's not fair. So then when the ro left and this is his son talking says when my father left Ashkenaz he received a letter from the city he left promising him that what security. They guaranteed his security and they told him, "We're going to send a delegation to meet you at the border. Nothing will happen to you." And why? Because the rush, everyone enjoyed his wisdom. My guess, by the way, also non-Jews. Now, it doesn't say it here. I would just say it as an assumption. And why? Because if it was only the Jews, okay, so why the king cares? Why he doesn't want him back? It might be that he was like a a counselor or whatever it is and gave advice and people enjoyed his wisdom. However, for the ro it was the the what do you call it the the straw that hit the camel back or broke the camel's back. He says enough he is after me and every day there is something else here in Germany. You know what? I'm just going to Spain. No, Spain, the beginning of the 14th century. The rush moved to Spain in 1305 was heaven for Jews. Heaven. It's not that there was emancipation and we could vote. I'm not talking about that. But Jews were able to flourish in Spain until >> 149 >> 1492. It's okay. and even before that. But the idea was the beginning of the 14th century, Spain was looked upon as a good place for Jews and therefore The kaot kept it for themselves and probably paid it in a different uh different fines for everything else because you know in the middle ages the god the king will not say okay you need to pay 50 you need to pay no no he will what he will appoint one leader as a representative of the community and he will appoint probably at least in England it was a non-Jewish guy that will be that will supervise that Jew and Um and then he will tell them the community needs to raise x amount of money and internally in the community itself they will divide it and there are many many questions about how to divide it and what do you say what do you do when a person says to you look you're telling me that I need to pay $20,000 I don't have that kind of money or I just have property but I don't want to sell it because then I'm going to what to lose money so many many issues But going back to your question, the communities didn't need to pay it or they had to pay it later. So raid basically is trying to explain what why is it that my family including obviously my father ended up well in Spain and we are not in Germany. Now one more detail that we get from this story is again we do have a testimony or a testimony we do have a documentation that what that money was raised to ransom the Marame Rotten book doesn't say that the Marame book says what >> don't do it just didn't happen because what >> until they raised the money until this and that and the other he died Okay. >> Why didn't he stay in place of music and get the rest of the money and release the body right away? >> The what? >> Why did he why did he leave? I don't say why he left. >> Because they were not willing to pay the same amount of money for a dead body. >> Yeah. And and the governor says to him, "That was your responsibility. He died on your watch and therefore I want the same money for while he was alive." And the ro says and no one will and maybe even the Jews in the community says, "No, no, no, no, no. We are not doing it. We are willing to pay for a life rabbi, not a dead rabbi. >> Yeah. >> But he was the guarant so he could have been the live rabbi all of a sudden. So the fact that he kind of left everybody in the lurch. >> So it is interesting. It seems to be now historically I don't know. So I'm going to make up a theory like many other theories. You are right. Think about a structure of a community. The rabbi, the main rabbi, the Marame, who is well known, by the way, who have many chuvot, you can see also from his students are incredible students. He's in prison. You have the ro who obviously is a known quality and in a way he should have stayed there with his community. But I think he realized two things. A like he says that there are many so if not today tomorrow will be my turn and at the end of the day I will be thrown into prison for whatever reason they don't need a reason they just will throw me to jail and then they will ask for another ransom but there is going to be no money we can't we need to survive and they knew very well that every time they can change their mind the governors can change their mind and put another fine and another tax on the community and they will not be able to survive. So the ro in a way felt that it's not good for him to stay obviously based on this his community did not think like him but I guess he felt that what that it's not going to work in Germany however now his son is saying something else he says now you need to obviously add what the religious component and the you know the spirit spiritual component which which is what >> you talk about what did they say about >> we'll talk about it that's exactly the question that we will deal with because until now we didn't have the first story does not mention it at all >> the second story does mention that what that they raised the money and we didn't hear any objection the Marami rotten book did not say don't do it and not only that the ro was willing to be what >> a guarantor for the money which means it seems to be >> okay >> that that was okay. So all this myth that we were raised since children when we heard about the story that the Marame Rotten book says what >> don't transfer me >> we don't have a source for it yet I'm not saying it's not true I'm just saying that we don't have a source for it but so but how did you end up in Spain and why is that good so he says that was from the hand of God came to Spain and he started educating people and he basically educate hundreds of students is Ashkenazi. He needs to say something about the says he came to Spain and he saw that many of their commentators commentary is not accurate. Now here I'm going to open up a footnote. What is he talking about? So now that's I'm not expecting you to know that. So we know about toot right? There's tsot most known in France. There is towot in Germany. There's toot in England. What's going on in Spain? So in Spain they didn't really have a lot of the tradition from the French rabbis. There was in the 13th century the rambanades quotes some of the French rabbis but in the 14th century this little lesson and there is toot raenu. Rabenu Perrot was a spadic rabbi and he wrote toot when the ro came to Spain he looked at the tootim of parrot says this is not accurate this is terrible I the one to bring the real tradition from whom from the rotenb who received it from whom from me who received it from probably from zaken I am the one to bring the real tradition. Therefore study. However, when you compare to parents sh you see that they are almost identical [laughter] with some variations. And that obviously brings the question if it's so wrong why do you quote him right so it's very interesting it's like always like that when or comes along when a guest comes along everything is bad right or everything is good so the ro comes to Spain according to his son and he is fixing everything right like there was no nothing there before the ro came and then he says Ah so nice the rhythm he says everywhere that he teaches he's being accepted and everyone understand Torah. So in a way the ro left Germany that was the hand of God because in Spain where the future of the Jews will be they need someone like the Rosh and by the way obviously who is telling that who is saying that >> his son and then he says his children walked on the same path like him they didn't change anything he said you can see he's uh it's brilliant how he play with you know that's the blessing that Moshe gives to a and a is so God safeguard the ro because the ro himself safeguard God's commandments says all the ro children are rabbis scholars and they keep and safeguard and and and and maintain all the laws and the commandments and me says sorry I'm that I'm just like I'm the smallest I'm I'm I'm not contributing a lot. Obviously humility. Okay. He also what he establish. Now this is interesting. All the world of in the middle ages it's not like what we have today. Even the Marrami Rottenborg who we know probably had 25 students. It was well in his house. But there is a shivot in Spain which also says something about the wealth of the community that they built. Now it doesn't need to be a kit but a place for the students to what? >> To study >> yes how long was he when he got to beame a commentary or he still? No, no. He kept the tradition of Ashkanazic uh studies. I would assume that after years and encountering Sardic scholars, he would take them into consideration. But he was very devoted to what? To the French tradition, French Ashkanazic tradition of studying. >> So he's considered a commentator >> in Spain. Yeah. Which is very interesting. And then he continues. He says that the congregation also was influenced by him and they accepted some of his changes. And then he says and it says also it says and now when I am taking over in a way even the government, the non-Jewish government also respects me or understands that I am the representative, let's say, of of of the Jewish community. So basically says look after my father passed away I I guess he was appointed and he says he was accepted by the kahila and he was also accepted by the government because don't forget sometimes even the government realize that what the Jews will not go to civil cult but they will go to a Jewish cult to a baitin and Sometimes if I have a non-Jewish partner, I'm sleing him to to the the Jewish court. So the government basically relied that the ben will not be bribed and will not be influenced by the fact that he is a Jew and a non-Jew. He will he will do what? He will do the right the just. Okay. Now I brought the second part just to show how he use in a way the spiritual component but to our issue is that what we hear from here that a ransom was raised in order to save the Maramebu and it doesn't seem that anyone objected it and not only that his student who you would probably think that if his rebi will say no will not agree to it he not only that he didn't that he was not against it he was the guarantor for the ransom. Okay. So where is that story came from? The dear Roen book says what? Do not ransom. Okay. So go to the end of page two. The marshalla um 16th century. He was in Poland. has a yeshiva in Lublin and he was obviously anyone who knows the Marshall or Yamchel Schlommo the shoot um obviously brilliant scholar and also very courageous scholar and he comments on the famous Mishna in Gin inh sorry that talks about ransoming the captives, how much you can pay and how much you should not pay and why because if you will continue to pay it encouraging them to what to capture Jews okay now by the way we all know the how relevant it was even though I will say it's very different you know what maybe I'll take few minute I don't have few I know I do have but not to start that but I would just speak for four minutes when the hostages were in Aza and even before that when soldiers were captured and there was always the um there was always like most of the rabbis jumped into this and says meaning there is a set amount how much you can because if not it will encourage them some of the principles you can derive from that Mishna but I will tell you you can't just rely on that Mishna and Gumar and why we are talking about a totally different reality the Mishna did not have soldiers they didn't have a nation they had communities and this is a question if a Jew is captured how much the community needs to Hey, when a soldiers goes to a battle, when as parents we send children to the battle, we have expectation from the government and from the state to do what? >> Whatever it takes to bring them or alternatively not to do anything and just to kill or they are I mean it depends where you are on the spectrum, the political spectrum. The idea is is that it's much more than a Jew who didn't pay something or if he's a very important Jew that the governor think that he can get a lot of money for him. We are talking about a nation and we're talking about nationality. So it's very different. You're talking about a morale of a nation. This is something that the Mishna and the Gumar definitely did not deal with that. That was not the reality. So what I'm saying is that sometimes when you have a source if you want to implement it in real life you need to be cautious. Not saying you can't because those are our sources but you need to be very cautious. Yes. >> The idea of kura and even with the time of the gamora and that's what I was asking before in terms of how could they let a body just rot without bearing a problem. It's not about them letting the governor did not release the body until I get the amount of money I want. >> And it's not our responsibility. >> The what? >> Yeah. >> The what? >> It's not our responsibility as as Jews to retrieve a dead body. >> It is the question is to what degree? And you know what? I'll leave you with a question. Google it or AI it Philadelphia at the second third round in Aza. I don't know it was the there was a terrible explosion there and body parts were in many places and the army sent a team under fire to try to find remains and there was a huge discussion should you endanger life soldiers in order to get dead bodies. >> And that was exactly the point. Do we look at that as we sanctify the life and we try to do whatever we can in order to bring soldier back to back to Israel and to be buried or we say we're not going to endanger soldiers for such a purpose. And there are a lot was written on it. I was much much younger. Um I think I was a teenager at the time but uh I I remember that that was a huge discussion about it security-wise like army military wise and but also if I don't want to do it I don't want to risk my life for a dead body I will risk my life for my friend who is still alive or if he has a potential of life but not for remains or you should because for the nation to bring them back was some kind of a national success. So these are those are the questions we need to uh complete that. Yes. One more question about negotiation. Why didn't why did Abraham negotiate to get lo what >> I said maybe Abraham instead of going to battle the four could negotiate with money. >> Okay. So why Abraham risked his life to bring lotrash incredible midrash of why Abraham did it but because I don't have time and also I will not going to do your homework we are done here just please hold on to to the to the pages somehow because there is a tendency not to see them next week so hold on to it >> my grandson Thank you.