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Moshe’s Learning Curve to Leadership | Rabbi Shmuel Goldin
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trajectory of Moses leadership path
towards
leadership and these are disparate
events they're not events that occur one
right after the other there are
different points in the story and yet
they have one critical feature That
Remains the Same and we'll see that in
just a moment we're going to begin with
one of the
most difficult and to be honest one of
the most upsetting sections of the Torah
or passages of the Torah and this occurs
at as Moshe rabenu leaves y's home and
begins his journey towards Egypt God has
commanded him now is the time for you to
go you're safe the people running after
you are no longer alive everybody's you
you can now
return if you take a look at the first
section on your
page go go back now to
sentence took his wife he took his
children he placed them on the
donkey you're going to see unbelievable
Miracles you're going to do unbelievable
things this is this is you're starting
your your
journey until we get
to in which is
4 and he was on the way at a Malone
that's Motel all right place place to
stay and in
correct and God encountered
him and sought to kill him that's what
the Torah says no warning no discussion
no
explanation God just simply appears to
Moshe out of out of nowhere doesn't say
anything to him and threatens his
life now why would God do that doesn't
doesn't make much sense if God forbid
Moshe would not have would have died on
the way you and I wouldn't be here today
it's not just Mosa's life that's its
sake it's the whole story of the birth
of the Jewish people that's its sake
what's going on why is a jeopardizing
not only moshe's life but his whole his
whole job his old
Journey what happens and here is another
case in the Torah where the women are
the ones who save the day all
right immediately takes a a sharp
instrument probably a sharp Rock
it's oras she cuts off the foreskin of
her son elezar elzar has just been born
he's pass the eight days and she
circumcises her son immediately when she
sees this danger that's coming what then
happens the danger
disappeared and she called her son kasan
lot a bridegroom of blood whatever that
may whatever that means but that's the
the three sentences of the
narrative somebody's got to help me here
why why would God why would God do this
so thank God we have a variety of
different positions in the in the rabbi
world as to what is going on here if you
turn the next page you'll find that in
the townwood in the gar there are three
distinct
positions all of them are based on the
supposition which is a reasonable
supposition because of what seora does
to to solve the problem is that somehow
somewhere bris Milo is involved in this
right in other words Moshe didn't do
what he was supposed to do on some level
and bris Milo is involved and seora
corrects the problem that's it so you
see in the first first position and I've
summarized them in English
below
[Music]
says great great powerful is the Mitzvah
of
bris because all the goodness all the
greatness all the things that Moshe does
and did and could do
disappear when he did to the bris okay
comes along the second
position rebi
says God forbid that we should think
that that Mosher Renu was was negligent
thank you negligent in performing this
MIT it can't be can't be so what
happened he made a himself which was a
reasonable and actually a Hally
appropriate K which is what which is
we're traveling it's dangerous for this
child to have the bris Mew now so I'll
wait a little while and I'll when I when
we reach a place of comfort then we'll
be able to do it so why is why does God
threaten him because he according to
this
position was a question
priorities as soon as he got to the end
what should he have done he should have
done the Brisa but he was involved in
other things he was fluffing up the
pillows he was making the bed he was
right whatever it might be and therefore
the moment came that moment that Split
Second where Moshe should have done
something and didn't do it now all of
this by the way is is fascinating
because bris Mila emerges before the
Jews Emer right isn't that true in other
words
Abraham emerges from the patriarchal era
so AB Moshe being obligated in briso
it's not yet a Mitzvah it's an
obligation it's an obligation that has
been handed down from generation to
generation but it's not yet a Mitzvah
mitzvot only begin at Hari we haven't
gotten there yet and in fact that maybe
why we have two brot when you do the
Brit one which is
and for the Brit and one which
is because there are two that we have
caused him to enter the Covenant of
Abraham there are two Dimensions to the
Vero in our world one is that it's a
Mitzvah and one is that it's a
continuation of what abam did in the
beginning of time all right so those two
positions basically differ on on one one
thing one is that Moshe really was
negligent and didn't perform the BR the
second one is no he made a and what
happened was when he got to the place
where he should have done the bris law
he didn't do it right away finally there
is a third
position
omu not it wasn't Moshe rabenu that was
at
risk it was the child it was
that was at
R because it the text says be that God
tried or wanted to desired to kill him
who's him so until now we basically said
it was Moshe which really is probably
the P side of the text shim says no not
not it wasn't Moshe that was jeopardized
it was the child but he doesn't give any
reason for it really all right why why
would God jeopardize the life of the
child not clear not
clear those are the three those are the
three positions that are held in the Tom
hold on a moment please I got to go to
one more one more position and then I'll
take comments briefly
rashbam I've told you in the past the
rashbam is my favorite classical
commentary because he
sticks close to the posad as he can he's
rashi's grandson and he sometimes takes
his grandfather to task for for going to
medim and he comes up with a whole
different approach to this
event he
says wait a minute says the rash this
wasn't a pleasure Journey this wasn't a
vacation this wasn't something where you
bring your your wife and your children
to the danger of mitzraim basically he
was taking his time it was he was
getting them ready shouldn't have done
that he should have said stay here
safely I'm going immediately and says
rashbam the fact that he did not do that
the fact that he took seora and his
children with him and that caused delays
in the actual going that was his that
was his that was the problems was a
whole different point of view than
what's mentioned in the tel
yes he go back
to that's also delay well correct that's
correct he did go back to you beforehand
but because he wanted to get the family
so that's all part of the same part of
the same
delay well that's that's a whole that's
a whole another discussion right but we
we'll get to that yes
good question
good the question is we have no point we
have no um text that says seora was a n
how did she know what the problem was so
the answer seems to be from the text
that she intuition basically she looked
around she says what could be causing
this danger and she said that's that's
it and she did the bris according to the
rashbam that doesn't fit because rashbam
does says it's not the bris
something else
yes well that's okay the mad is mad is
that eats him that the snake actually
swallows him until the point where only
his feet are are are visible but we're
that's medrash we're just sticking as
close as we can to the
text I never heard that one all right
yes
no that's right that's right we're going
to come to that we're going to come and
and we have it we've hardly answered
most of our questions because why
doesn't if it's if it's one of these
things why doesn't God appear to him and
say mosu you know you you do a bris meal
right take care of take care of this
first or why doesn't Hashem say to him
according to the rash bam don't bring
back your your your children your family
and in fact the Mish if you look down
below the medish has a fascinating and
this we're going to take a little side
trip this whole issue of taking the
family back to Egypt was it right or was
it wrong so the medish says that mosu
comes back to
is and he says I'm going to take your CH
your daughter and my children to Egypt
to which yro responds and this is one of
those medim that creates a dial to show
the real issue that that this is an
issue yro comes to him and says those
who are in MIM are dying to get out and
you're going to bring my daughter and
their children down to to Egypt not
right
impossible this is a m not this
conversation is not in the text this is
a medish but what it's doing is it's
pointing to something that the rashbam
pointed to which is taking the family
down to Egypt is an issue is an issue
Moshe responds to ISRO by saying that
once they leave Egypt they are destined
to go to Hari and receive the Torah
would I deny that experience to my
children and the conversation ends and
he takes the family turn to the next
page and we find two and by the way
we're also there's another mystery and
that is once seora does this
briso she disappears
we have no discussion when is the next
time that moshe's family will appear
after The Exodus after everything when
yro brings them to harini which is
another point a narrative that we'll
discuss but what's happened so so what
did what happened did they go down to to
to Egypt did they not go down to Egypt
all right so the first thing I want you
to look at is the ran on page
three the Raman says
it was a good idea to take the family
down to Egypt why was it a good idea
because Ben Israel would look at MOS and
say he was sitting comfortably in his in
is's house he's going to take his family
and bring them to Egypt to what we're
experiencing in it must be that he
really believes that we're going to get
out in other words the bringing of the
family says the ramban would give
confidence to CLA Israel that mosha
rabenu is certain of of the conclusion
here that's the ran others suggest no
and finally what happens to the family
after this event there are different
opinions the Evan azra says for
example he alone
returned or on the on the on the uh
path once this event took
place seor said he doesn't say this but
seor said this is too dangerous we're
not going to take the kids we're not
going to take the family and she turned
around and she went back says the ran
the Evan the the ramban again that was
the Evan
Ezra it's possible that they went down
to Egypt it's possible that they did we
don't know and
K and when the process of The Exodus
became longer than they might have
expected that's when they left so it's
not clear it's not clear what happens
after this event but let's let's let's
go back to the event itself for a moment
and and here's the point that I that we
need to make so that we can go to the
other
narratives something is happening
here is threatening Moshe suddenly
without any information without any
instruction what do you think is
happening what's going on what would the
lesson be that Moshe is being taught by
this
event all right I'll tell you what I
think and you'll tell me if you like it
or
not allow himself to do what hasem alls
to do but it's steeper than that
leadership does not absolve you from
personal
responsibility right the higher you rise
in our world the more the leaders tend
to feel those laws are good let's pass
them but they don't apply to me right
because I'm I I'm I have I'm leading I'm
leading I'm you know it's a I just saw a
a um one of the articles I read recently
said that the knesset voted itself very
high bonuses while everybody else is is
is struggling right so in other words
it's just one example but so many
examples how many
times America is going to have a
president who is a convicted felon right
right he's been convicted right but so
so these but why do these leaders feel
that way because they they're they're
leaders they either they say it doesn't
apply to me because I'm so important or
it doesn't apply to me because I'm so
great or whatever it might be Along
Comes A
KES and through
experience teaches Moshe something the
first lesson of leadership that is
critical and that is Moser I don't have
to tell you this I'm going to put you
through this you have to know you must
realize that your
leadership will not absolve you from a
responsibility more so what will
leadership do it will increase your
responsibility you you have to serve as
an example not as someone who's outside
the pale but as an example to the people
that you're leading Ro model a role
model correct and there for I would
suggest that this is the first time that
mosha RAB God turns to mosha rabenu does
not tell him what the message is allows
him to learn it through very difficult
experience so that he should know this
is something you should know this is
something you should realize on your own
I don't have to it's like like sometimes
you have an argument with your spouse or
with with your children I shouldn't have
to tell you this right I shouldn't have
I don't need to tell you this this is
something you should know by yourself
yes oh okay all right so that that's my
suggestion to you
what might say this come with well good
point good point good point but
nonetheless nonetheless he does it once
he accepts he accepts will come to a
point in this sheer where he questions
that acceptance
yes I'm
sorry what I'm
suggesting
right it's daa at the beginning of his
Le right but he he
stavka at the beginning of his
leadership I believe that Hashem wants
him to learn these lessons at stavka at
the beginning of the leadership that
Hashem says you should realize on your
own as you become a leader you cannot
absolve yourself from personal
responsibility you have to serve as an
example well let's go to what there are
two other events that are similar in
some ways and very different than others
and we'll see that this is a pattern I'm
suggest
that
periodically in moshe's life teaches
Moshe lessons through
experience rather than outright
instruction let's go this is a this is a
really interesting one it's sort of a
little funny at sin right before
Revelation okay
V El right before theer God comes down
in a cloud to the mountain with me on
page number four
right and God and Moshe goes Moshe God
comes down to the m mountain kav and
Moshe ascends the
mount as soon as he reaches the top what
does Hashem say to
Moshe
ra go down and testify to the people
that they have to be careful not to
cross the boundary that are making
around Hari right now let's leave this
conversation for a moment and let's talk
about that boundary why is it that at
the moment of closest contact with God
God insists on
distance right in other words he's
saying you cannot cross this boundary
during
Revelation once I leave by the way go
ahead and climb our it's not like not
like harab said has kadha in itself we
mention this that rather once once the
Cher blows indicating my presence is
gone this is no longer Holy Ground but
don't come up so there are a variety of
answers one is that this
really captures the the relationship
that we are meant to have with Hashem
which at once is
distin and at once is very close we said
this before I think kados kados kados
which really means separate separate
separate is God
distant
Mal his glory fills the world and it's
that kind of relationship that give and
take between distance and
familiarity that that defines hagalo at
har another
approach by the way and I think I said
this to you last week but I'm not sure
the human relationship that most most
closely
mirrors this relationship with Hashem of
distance and familiarity is parent child
relationship in Judaism there are two
sets of Commandments concerning parents
in the Torah one is
cabus and one
is that you should hold them in awe
should and the way the rabbis understand
the first one the one that's in har the
one in
the what how do they
understand they say when they need you
when they grow
older take care of their needs take care
of them which is a very very human close
event close series of events and the
gamorra by the way starts off with a
question that only the gamorra could ask
which is okay we got to take care of our
parents whose money should we
use all right is it okay okay if I'm
allowed to am I allowed to use my
parents money for their care at the end
of their life or do I have to use my own
and the tud basically says you can use
your parents money you're allowed to do
it but that's the kind of question the T
would ask because it's very basic and
it's very somebody else would say I'm
not gonna ask that question Tom would
asks it because that's real life okay so
back to back to the communication here
so Moshe God Moshe God comes down to the
mountain mosha ascends the mountain no
sooner does Moshe reach the top of the
mountain then Hashem says to
him go down and testify to the people
that they should not cross the boundary
what does Moses
say you've already told us this the the
nation cannot come up Mount Si you told
us that the pain of death we should not
cross that
boundary why are you sending me back
down to tell them
again to which God responds with two
words because I told you so right
because I told you so go down so let's
summarize this conversation and and its
flow God calls mosha to the top of the
mountain as soon as he gets there he
tells him to go
down Moshe in his own words basically
says what are you giving me busy work
for what do what what what why are you
giving why are you making me go down you
made me come up I go down as soon as I
get there I go down not necessary you've
already done this to which God says as I
said I told you so that's it that's a
very strange conversation isn't it and
and why is god making Moshe go down if
the aerus and dios about to be given and
that and now I'll tell you the the the
Clincher look at the last sentences in
your
paragraph
right Moshe goes down and following
God's instructions tells them not to
cross the
boundary what's the next thing that
happens pageant begins right you could
almost see mosu saying wait hold it a
minute right the curtain's going up too
soon I'm down here I'm supposed to be up
there as soon as mosha does what God
says God begins the Revelation process
so once again something is happening
here Hashem is teaching Moshe something
very very important what is
that leadership leadership what about
leadership that leadership has to emate
from the people and it must be always
connected to the people and therefore
Moshe you belong at the beginning of
Revelation you belong exactly where you
are right you belong with the people at
the base of the mountain now there will
become a a time when you will Ascend
because you have a particular role but
nonetheless at its onset the leadership
has to come from within
and once again it's a lesson that God is
teaching mosha it's clear God is
teaching mosha I believe without telling
him letting him find out for himself
right go down and then he starts and
mosh Ru says Ah now I understand I had
to be here in the beginning I had to be
here when the Ten Commandments start the
aser 10 wrote 10 statements start all
right de 10 declarations start that's
really the inter interpretation of De
brro it's not 10 commandments it's 10
pronouncements and and mosh raenu says I
have to be here at the bottom I have to
be with the people when this begins okay
someone had a hand I took care of it I
answered it okay good all right now
let's go to a third
event and
this
what I believe pup shot of the text is
that he's at the bottom of the mountain
when the Asser begin and that's the
point God sends him back down and once
he gets down and does what he was told
to does begins now when Moshe then goes
up that's another question in other
words as he go up in the middle of the
does they go after but at the moment
according to the of the text and there
are others who say this is out of order
but according to the of the text Moshe
is at the base of har when Revelation
begins all right next next we're going
to move now past
harini to a very tragic event tragic
event which takes place at
Koso what are
kavo Graves of Desire literally let's
take a look at what's Happening Here
because of is the
peso Moshe is Turing away from ouri
sensibly going to Israel and Moshe hears
what the nations are the the the people
are are
crying and what are they saying they're
saying they the text later says they're
saying we're sick and tired of the mud
we want to go back to where we were in
Egypt where we were fed with cauldrons
of meat where we were satis everything
was great in Egypt right everything was
terrific right we're sick and tired of
the
month so what does mosha do
here this is a point and the only point
in his
leadership where he loses it where he
basically says I give up all right he
says
did I give birth to this these
people again figured figure right did I
give birth to these
people right did I did I become pregnant
with them did I
birth that should you are telling me to
hold them to my chest as a nursing
father again figuratively would suckle
the
child is that what you is that what
you're telling
me then mosha brings up another problem
May from where am I going to get meat
how am I going to sell this right where
from where am I going to get meat and
finally the third
plaintiff
claim I cannot give birth I cannot lead
this nation
alone the burden is too strong burden is
too hard so what we have here is three
distinct concerns that mosha raises the
first is an overarching concern is this
and ra
Sal says this is the moment where Moser
Renu
learns what leadership into the Jewish
World
entails this is the moment mosh rabenu
until now said I'll give a good cheer
right I'll give a good to Russia but and
I often say this and I'm teaching a a
group of of RAB rical students on Sunday
one of the points that I'm going to make
over the course of the sessions is that
don't ignore the Pastoral part of your
renant recognize that it may be the most
important part not only because it
brings you closer to the people not only
because you take care of their needs but
because they will see you differently
when you do that I was in Englewood 34
years there is no way that I could have
spoken to the people when in the 34th in
the first year as I did in the 34th
right we had 34 years together we had 34
years where I visited visited in the
hospital where
I I was there God forbid during
difficult times we celebrated smot
together I earned their trust I could
then get up and say things to them that
I could never have said in the beginning
so the Pastoral part of the Rabin it is
defines the Rabin it in some
ways all right now so he's ra ra so
that's the first complaint that he's
raised is this the nature of Jewish
leadership do I really have to do this
right and again picture me the rabbi
sitting in my office and one person
comes in with a very very serious
problem and the next person comes in
with a very very serious problem and the
next person comes in with a clayy the
next person comes in with something
that's ridiculous that is so minor it
shouldn't even bother
him and you're sitting there and you you
want to say at some level do you know
what the people before you were bringing
to me we were bringing me this idiotic
thing this small thing but then you stop
and you realize wait a minute
what to you seems small clearly to this
individual is large and therefore you
have to respond to that person as you
would if they brought one of the other
issues and that's what Moshe is learning
here he is learning that he has to have
patience he's learning that he has to
take care take care of the people next
so that's number one that's his first
complaint is this the nature Jewish
leadership second
complaint where will I find and third
complaint I can't do this alone okay so
three issues that he brings up to
a let's see how God
responds t z and in that same page five
in the thing
of I'm looking at the second underlined
section now all right page
five gather for me
70 wise men zakum Elders of the people
and bring them to
the the tent well he doesn't say that
right right now he
says I will take from the spirit that is
upon
you basically go go with them and I will
take a portion of the holy spirit that
I've invested in you and place it in
them
now the rabbis say that at this point
Moshe is like a
candle because fire is the only element
or one of the only elements that can
give to another and still retain its own
strength so it's not that MOS is
diminished if anything Moshe is enlarged
he is sharing he is giving from his
Spirit to these people but not losing
any element of his own greatness so
that's the answer to problem number one
problem number two three
really I can't do
it what good question good
question why does he answer the last one
first all right um I don't
know all right it could be it could be
that that he feels there's a there is a
um sequence to what he's going to say
now and that's sequence has to begin
with this the sharing of the leadership
now this is the this is the progenitor
of what San hedrin right rinic Authority
and in fact there's something very
fascinating here and I'll take another
side trip for just a moment when it what
happens is God tells them to go to the
door of the ohid of the of the
sanctu he descends and places some of
the spirit on them and the Torah says
they they
prophesized and then they did not Yu all
right so what does the word Yu come from
right the answer is it could be two
things it come could be
MOS or S which are two different two
very different
possibilities
by could mean they prophesized and they
never stopped right below
yfu or it could mean by that they never
stopped prophesying in other words that
they continued seeu they
they added to what they have okay so it
could be any one of those things this is
fascinating and I want to suggest that
the Torah uses that
language because there will be a debate
throughout his history as to how we view
rinic
leadership there will be those who are
mystically inclined to say that the r
has some sort of certain Ron right have
some sort of
spiritual uh spark and God is telling
them what to do they don't realize it
and then there will be those myself
included who will say no that's not
that's
not isn't left to the Nim ran says this
in his introduction to U the
Mish it's not left to Nim it's given to
the rabbis to use their sense their
intellect to determine what should be
and therefore the prophecy here was
instant but limited only to that time so
different possibilities yes they have
the
same true that's correct that's correct
well done that that it it's a voice and
either it doesn't end or it ends one or
the other there's no no possibly it's
not happening again and possibly what
possibly it never
stopped okay now so he answers question
number three let's keep
going
next elar I'm looking at sentence
18 and to the nation say and this is
very frightening
news get ready for tomorrow and you're
going to eat
meat but what's gon to
happen because you had the
to complain against me and say who's
going to give us meat we want to go back
to Egypt what's gonna happen I'm going
to give you meat and it's I don't have
it here totally in the text it comes
actually good test and Ka not underlined
but it's in there it you're going to eat
meat till it comes out of your nostrils
you're going to eat meat until and what
happens is a plague occurs of some kind
while they are consuming what happens
quailes are brought come and and they
eat the meat and during the eating of
the meat thousands of them perish so is
angered by this there are some Rebellion
the rebellions in the midbar were not
all equivalent there were some
rebellions that were
reasonable we're out of water we need
water it's not a rebellion it's complain
put it that way there are others like
this one where KES Bar says you have
nothing to complain about and you're
complaining I'm going to teach you all
right so that's the second so he answers
the
second what does he not
answer problem number one the biggest
problem the one that really leads to all
the others which is is this the nature
of Jewish leadership and basically what
he says to M with in through his
silence is a my words not that not that
um not that proper suck it up Moshe
right that's it recognize recognize that
this is what Jewish leadership is and I
don't have to tell you that I'm going to
teach you through example and therefore
I'm not going to answer I'm not going to
answer your first complaint because you
need to realize that that's it that's
what it is
yes
question um I have
noide that he gave them so much Quail
like he said he
would that they ate it for days but
maybe it went part of it started to go
bad and when it went bad they got sick
okay so my answer to you is we don't
know right in other words what we know
is that something happened right that
who caused something to happen during
the consumption of the meat that created
a terrible
tragedy we do not know why we do not
know how right in other words what was
the mechanism by which that tragedy
occurred it could be that you're right
it might be know might be that it was
something else but something happens
that causes the tragedy so what MOS ru
is being taught here is another
Elemental Elemental piece of Jewish
leadership which is the nature of Jewish
leadership is that you have to care for
your people like a parent would care for
for his child and mosha Renu has to be
has to learn that that's not in it by
the way that's not instinctive for
mosenu it would be more instinctive for
who for Aaron right but nonetheless
mosha rabeno has to learn that this is
the nature of leadership and you have to
have that patience and you have to have
that love and you have to do
it well that's a very interesting
question right which is what happens to
Mosa's children right another qu another
another time another time to discuss all
right so turn to the next
page so what we're really saying what
we're
suggesting is that AES who makes use of
a particular tool in order to educate
noan and that tool is learn from
experience in other words there are
certain things that I don't have to tell
you that you need to know and that you
need to take it in yourself from the
experiences that you
have what does that teach about
education so I'm going to tell you
something um that another one of my pet
peeves parents
today are
determined not to let their children
fail right in other
words you having trouble with that paper
right I'll help you write it you're
having trouble with this we don't want
you to fail
failure is an important
teacher right failure is The Stumbling
is an important event in life that
teaches us about
life those children that are growing up
and those homes end up believing that
everything's going to come to them that
everything will be and in some cases it
does all right in some cases the parents
continue to treat them the same way
later on
but life issues are very important and
and failure is part of those life issues
so Al baru is teaching mosha through
experience and taking the chance that
there will be a failure here and
nonetheless he's doing it and he's
teaching him that way and that way is
important
right well he basically says that to
Moshe in other words he says tell the
nation that they're going to eat meat
and they're going to be sorry and it
seems he basically says that at the
bottom of the page it says you you're
you're gonna have it so it's going to
come out of your nost it's going to be
bad for you and if May Israel would have
turned around at that point I think and
said to Moshe okay God's God's telling
us that we really shouldn't be doing
this because it'll be dangerous that it
wouldn't have happened God gives them
that opportunity yes
100% that's that's correct
that's that's correct that's what I
that's really what I'm saying I'm saying
that failure and can teach what's
important and and what needs to be done
so Mosin who's got a curve learning
curve towards leadership we are
suggesting we're suggesting that at
least in three places in the Torah I'm
not aware of others there may be others
KES baru teaches him through experience
rather than frontal teaching and that
that those issues that he learns on
those occasions are critically important
one that leaders do not leadership does
not absolve you from personal
responsibility two that leadership has
to emanate from the people and three
that leadership consists of caring and
taking care of the Pastoral dimensions
of your of your leadership question
about the
solution having the elders the
ofation
is how does that well they they didn't
no they didn't stop leading they stopped
prophesying in other
words well it was perhaps but but
leadership no longer read the ram when
you introduction to the mishna and he
basically
says that Hal is not in the hands of
prophets anymore right basic he says it
very clearly is in the hands of man and
basically that's why that interpretation
exists all right so I we're going to end
there everybody unless there are
comments or questions on anything we've
said okay all right all the best all the
best