Hilchot Selichot Rabbi Shai Finkelstein

The is sponsored in memory of melonia. We are on page two and what we did for uh just as because it was last year so I guess we need to uh refresh the memory and uh basically we spoke about the status of uh is that like part of davening it's not part of dvening it's that is that like a pre-dvening is that like a separate entity and one of the ways to test it was if you have a katan if you have unfortunately an a or brit do you say that or not. Right? So that's what we said and then we saw especially by Mosher Sternb we saw on page two we saw that what that at the beginning he wanted to claim that um that it's not like dvening and then he says you know what it's like perhaps it's like preding ding right and therefore if there is a kan or something like that during you don't say so the same thing applies with what with and then he gave a little bit of a mus saying some people think that what's is the most important thing and then when it comes to daving okay so he says it's exactly the opposite is the pre-dvening to get you ready and then that itself this is the most important thing okay >> that's really preving yeah there is a that's one of the issues of doing that not bashabok for sure if we hold that this is a pre-dav um but yes as they say sometimes you know what it means people vote with their feet and that what you see it's a little bit more difficult and then you know they have the other excuses of like you know if I do it late at night I can't wake up in the morning it will affect my job it's immoral look some of it it's true um you know if you have still hot at 12:30 you finish at 1:15 and you wake up for 5:15 4 hours of sleep is a lower but sometimes we do it. So that's that's the way it is. Okay. So we will continue. We are on page two last third of the page. So that's what we did that really during we don't do like however if you say before you do so the difference in terms of time between the that you say during before and the going that you're not going to say can be half an hour. That's it. So in a half an hour you don't say it. So what do we see from the list? What do we see from the sorry we see that what that there is a different for and there is a different for so it seems to be that it's definitely not like it might be a but has different rules says the so why don't we have on because it's Okay. Like any other we don't we don't say so no So what do we have here? We have something very interesting. We have that in the same morning, let's say I didn't wake up in a like which is dawn. Let's say I say at 7:15. Okay, sunrise was 6:23. I I go to at 7:15 I don't but whatever whatever 7:15 that's so it's definitely already the day right so during I will do the I will not even though both of them are being said when >> after the day so we see that it seems to be that at least the tendency here is that is a different entity which is what maybe what said at the beginning it's theim And if you remember my dasha on the second day for those who are here in the show I spoke about the idea that in general in the has a different status. It does not originate from where from only from service God from in all your heart which is but rather from where from the says ine taught Moshe how to in the 10 days of repentance it's a for it's a totally different unlike the other 355 days of the year. So it seems to be that and everything is what is something that it's very different in the 10 days. I'll give you another example. If you don't say you say what do you need to do? >> You go back. If you say instead of what do you do? If you forgot to say what do you do? However, the sum of the guimm says that you need to repeat. Now, even if we reject the gonim, but let's talk just for a second about okay, so what's do I need to repeat? The answer is when do you need to repeat? When the defines if I did not say ones day, what do I need to do to go back? Why? Because is without there is something lacking. It's like I didn't say if I for example instead of like a regular what do I need to do >> to say it again why I but I didn't mention what the day the essence of the day the essence of the day is lacking so you didn't d I did yeah you did you did a good dvening for a Tuesday but not for so what do we see from here we see that that is being constituted by what by the essence of the day. So it might be that because it's so even if you don't do it or whatever but it's already half an hour from now you're not going to say but because it's part of what we call this is like the the version the the language of the of the blessing that's what you're going to add that's what you're going to do the says The day before what? >> Okay. So, very good question. So, then we have a little bit of a problem here. The little bit of the problem is what defines and there are different which means some for okay let's uh let's do um is not a good a good example the what >> the same mention Okay, very good. So the question is what's the status of the if it's mash like an even though again it's a little bit of a of a difficult example because we already don't say okay so it's a it's a wrong peak but there is an idea of how much this is being affecting the day before okay so you can understand that there are different for talks about what do we do in yipur we have a short not only because we have a lot of during yonipu it's not about that what did they do in ancient times in the time of it's called which means what they will butcher a lot of animals because people would eat there is a mitzvah to eat on the nth day so we don't want you in sh for too long we want you to do what go home and eat okay also has something very similar. So the idea is is depend it depends what kind of an you're talking about. So the continues and he says sorry no the source says whoa whoa whoa just one second we have the tradition to say what is early early and we basically the plan is what to finish before >> the day >> the day. So that's why you will what you will do during and you will not do during which is already ruling was only in a case that what the was a little bit of a schleer okay and then got into what >> to the day so you would think that what die reach the day we don't say answer >> no because you started before and It's connected to what you will still what you will do. Okay. So during the 10 days of repentance are very important. Now why are they very important? Now you need to remember what we did last year. one of the first sources according to the Rambam when do you need to say >> only that's what we did last time unlike the who starts at unlike the who starts four days at least four days before according to the Rambam is really why because right this is the this is the unique time for so definitely it's like the that we are saying today like for this week they are more important than what than the that we said before not that we have a level but this is this is the time which by the way also explains why in the Talmud you can see that the and later on the basically encourage people to take upon themselves things for even if they know for sure that they will not be able to continue it after for example >> meaning there is an encouragement to always buy bread from whom from a Jewish baker there is a way to to buy from a non-Jewish baker if he does it for everyone and there is no problem of whatever but that was a leniency many Jews had to rely on that leniency because there was no Jewish baker by the way in some villages Jewish bakers could not even get a license to be a Jewish baker okay so this idea was developed that there is what we call patal however the encourage people that during the 10 days try what not to do it even though you know you will not be able to continue so it's not like okay try 10 days and then you will continue to do it even knowingly you know you're not going to be able to do it do it so So then he continues and he says is very important. So he says before before it's a little less but after that it's becoming very important. Okay. So he says the following. Okay. In the times of the So you do before he's asking a very good question. So for the people who always come to show for you know during we we have for when do we say that >> after as part of before but it's in ding it's after ding after we start saying what do we see what do we do with this >> we say them before dinging Now I'm not talking about the people that do it at night or at 10:00 or whatever. Talking even about the people who are doing that in the morning. It's still when before he says llama what's the difference? So he says like in a just at first glance says really because if we should really say them when at night at night why at night because that's the time of what of right like when do you say that right so midnight midnight is time of that's why you should also That's why there was a question about can you move it early or whatever. But then he says he says really the most important thing is that our the people of the great assembly erected instituted created from generations uh ago. And when you say at the time of 10 days or whatever it is. He says so you say you need to say it before says by doing that before you sweeten that you you are helping that to go up. So that sounds like what a right like a preparation for that. says during the you want your to be perfect. So if you will start like like every day like every other day and then you will say the it will be too late for the our purpose is not is what is that therefore you want to sweeten that and how would you do that before and only after that in all the other days of of a fast day that you say during the there it's not to sweeten that it's to do what to remind us why do we fast today. If you have in your mind this we say during all the are talking about what what happened at that day. It's basically a reminder. It's not preding. Therefore you say it after sometimes we do things we don't think about them. But here in the purpose of is really to sweeten the and then he says says this is also the reason why according to sometimes we do it sometimes we don't but the person who he should den what all day until marif meaning all that of the day and why because he sweetening all the mu Unlike a regular fast you first need to open up their gates by what? By dvening and then you can say basically the are like besieging God after you already said the main the main part. So here we have something really interesting that uh by the way we'll also maybe address the issue of how come you can say it at night even according to the 1230 you don't d after no one d sh at 2 a.m. right so the answer is it's to prepare for the next ding that's basically what it is according to that opinion to that approach in America >> also here we have Mariv and then we have >> should be a but don't forget that is for [laughter] >> so so in a way maybe there is a good you finish the day you do marif and then you get you get maybe according to today for Marif should not be the one for because he belongs to them the day before. Yes. >> I was going to ask somebody 12:30 is they don't leave in the morning. >> They should. >> But I thought you said they don't. >> No, no. The one for at 10 at 10 p.m. He's not necessarily. But the one at the 12:30 again, not it's all not always implemented. Sometimes there is a side sometimes this but the idea is is that in terms of the the theology behind it or the idea behind it is what is that he is the one to really pre pre-prepare all the dvening of the day until m and this is I think I purposely chose this subject matter because we say and don't forget and you know what okay I'll ask you a question based on that where else do we In what >> all five davings that we have on we say where do we say that's >> it just basically I contradicted now everything I said before I would probably claim that the entire dvening of of Yonipu is what is transformed into what one long because what's the what's the mission of the day? It's called that's when Hashem says answered your So what did Moshe ask for? So that's what you do the entire day starting with starting with to start to say your Yes. is supposed to be right before dabing and when they do it the far do it they do it like in the middle of the night and then they go to sleep and then they do >> y that's what also should do and many do they come at midnight say go to sleep and then come to but the day already begin >> the fact that they went to sleep doesn't doesn't matter >> like literally >> no no this was established what >> the whole structure of our structure. >> It's a good question. The people of the great assembly and they want they want to create it doesn't say that they created they created but does not say the basis of and obviously with the generations each one you know created their own p I mean you see with which part of it was definitely affected by how you view Mhamd whatever what kind of highlights do you want to uh to emphasize or whatever but it's not there the idea of comes from the interpretation of in but who established it and when exactly to say it it's probably later on >> the reason I was asking because it seems like some more moder ways to circumvent our uh the structure and I'm just wondering whether the source of the structure like we know that the hala is sourced in the gabara for example and we really can't change that so so we don't have in the I understand exactly what you're saying you're asking a very good question there is no source in the that says okay you need to say before dvening you need to say we have what we call we have the understanding of some of theic issues but there's no specific there's a mess look when I was a child it was not that long ago I remember as a child midnight 12:30 that's when you go to even if you yawn and even if you're tired and even if that whatever you wake up for a minion the next day they say that's what you do for the next I don't know 15 days and they found him doing that for 40 Then I don't know maybe 30 years ago I would get assume 20 years ago 10:00 10:30 and now we have the put out and then the question is what are we playing with it like so part of it is yes because if not people don't come. So there is always okay be rigid do it whoever comes is the committed ones and those who not right so that's their problem or you say no I want people to come because it's not like rooted in halaka so we can be more quote unquote flexible or alternatively I know what we do here we offer options there is one at 10 there is one at 12:30 there is one before ding before the 6:00 a.m. before the 7:00 a.m. for that 8:00 a.m. before the 9:00 a.m. do whatever you want. So I don't force people to do one thing. You want to do is you are more than welcome. You want to do that what we have do. We don't have don't have enough people for that. But that's what we try to do. >> Somebody came to you and said, "Rabbi, I'm new to all this. Tell me what the the most uh >> most appropriate like I will tell him can you wake up at mid oh come at midnight >> and do it uh in terms of choice because he had no this guy came from nowhere okay I can tell him you can do this you can do that like the he will need to choose so yes there is there is there is a some kind of a feeling like oh we are playing with it and there is truth used to it and you know I I can't in straight face I can't tell you that it's not but in a way I don't know when I grew up those musical didn't exist today you look 10,000 people saying adon adona I don't know for me it's an incredible thing I know some people criticize it whatever it is >> it's beautiful >> but I think when you look at that and you see the masses >> come and say and connect themselves to it. Hopefully, it will lead them to do other things as well, not just, you know, to clap their hands and to sing Adon, but even that, and this is, by the way, part of the success of the Nusak is not only the integration between, but you can see that when there are the literature and there is the tune, you see how the community react. So it's it's an interesting in one word sociolog. So yeah but in this specific case just to be clear there is more room for it. You can hear rabbis by the way that says don't change to 10. It should be midnight should be you can change. I mean I'm not saying that there is it passed like that with no criticism but there is enough support on the other uh on the other on the other side to support what they did. Yes. >> So what exactly did this >> this one composed the tunes >> what tunes? The spadic tunes. >> The tunes that we say here >> that's I have no idea. That's the team. It's like you know who who composed them to I don't know [laughter] >> but he's like for the last 10 20 30 years. >> Yeah. Yeah. No. No. That's ask he would know a little bit. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's a tune from I would not be surprised if it's not from the ben from the middle ages >> because I'm sure that part of our literature and songs are also very similar. I'm not talking about which is okay. I'm talking about other things that we have or all sorts of you know what I'm talking about. Yeah. When the Kazan is stuck like you know that's do we have here anyone who is 500 years old. No. Okay. So if we don't uh but I am sure that this if you remember as children you will remember some of the tunes that you heard in your grandfather's shoe. I mean I can sign on it. So um >> no that goes I don't know how many years. >> Yeah I don't know how many years. >> And the father probably has the same thing. Last week, there was an interview with his old he was telling his life story and he was there as and it is exactly what we >> so That's incredible. >> That's that's so I think Mark the same thing with this. I'm just not that familiar but we don't sing it here but I I remember in I always was for this for because I woke up early in the morning and they did early in the morning and no one was there whatever but I remember the tune. The tune is beautiful and they have it for years. So again it depends from what community they came and so forth. But again to your question Paul, it's just I really don't know exactly when and who uh did it. I'm sure there's there's a lot of I mean I know a little bit but there is so much research about it so I can't give you a definite answer. >> Just to extend this idea further the idea that But it seems that >> we do now, >> right? And also by the way just as a side note one of the other proofs that during is more of a kadesh there's and then we have what kadeshm it's mash like the only thing that we don't have at the end is what really it's like so why it is very much like is like the I don't know the most important ding but the very crucial ding during the day. Okay. >> And no condition. Yes. Is it possible even >> might be might be also later on with the yeshivot I gave one issue about the timing and Ravia was asked by yeshiva guys that were serious learners and they said look if we're going to wake up in the middle of the night and we'll go to sleep at 2:00 Because it's much longer than 25 minutes here and we go to sleep at 2 and we always wake up at 5:30 to learn. We can't operate with 3 and 1/2 hours. He told him they can skipot. Don't say and continue to learn which means the point was some kind of convenience back in in his cha what you are describing in the 60s. I mean >> it's it might be that really people say okay you know let's d in Mariv and Mariv is at 8:30 whatever and we'll stay for they will go home not going to take the you know the subway again to come for forot or it's too dangerous to come at night we're not going to go at midnight it might be might be yes >> remember also in the parking danger >> so obviously So obviously there is an effect again there are probably a pile of reasons. Yes. So I think in gates they historically went by get up get up for and they would get up really early and then like it's a wonderful thing if you can by the way again if someone would ask me to come at 10 or to come at midnight and let's say you say I I have no problem I can go to the 8:00 minion I can sleep I will encourage him to do it because that's what we did in the does not mean that what you do if at 10 you are like second citizen second class citizen Is that what you can do? Okay, let's go back to says um page three. This is the second source. [clears throat] So if someone says during the day and there is the the father and the is there Should we say this is in my opinion? Sure. according to it's very interesting that's why I brought him he's on the other extreme he says you have and then you have what even though you don't say kadesh in between so it's like the continuation but it's still a different entity it's part of kan comes along do we cancel >> no >> no that's why we don't meaning part of is what is so even though if let's say the the for that day is a said and there is aan what do you do you continue you say the same thing with what is not like the is part of what it's an integral part of so what is like the root of the dispute between the so that's an interesting thing but that's by the way will explain also part of the different and the different tunes that uh that we have forkazim and foradim and by the way this is again I'm not giving it publicity we do it here and we do also the other one But when you integrate them both, you can hear the differences. You can mamesh hear the differences. And what are the differences and where they originate from? From. So the ra was the one of the greatest of in Germany in the 12th century. He says we have a custom to fast seven days before including to fast on Shabbat. When do you fast on Shabbat? Only he says basically there is a midrash that says that seven days before start fasting. So it takes third from our sins. Then between Roshash and Yonipur also people fast for seven days. Not straight. Not not straight for seven days. >> No no said not straight. They from you know from sunrise to uh to sunset. >> And uh and uh and then so another third is being uh erased and then Yonipur everyone fast. So the other third is gone and we will be okay. And then he says, I'm skipping a bit. Oh, you know what? No. So, what does it mean when in the says seek God when he exists or when he when he's there inem like reveals himself to us the 10 days between calling when he's really close to you. What? Without you need to what? To abandon your bad bad deeds and and your wrong path. And when the individual needs to do it 10 days between from here we learned. So that we learn from here that all is needs to what too fast and to beseech God in these 10 days. So you need to fast and you need to say right it sounds like environment right like fasting beseching God. Okay, take a look at the that's the there's a custom to fast 10 days before which includes sometimes the Shabbat itself and even if you don't do the Shabbat whatever you need to start fasting that's the right thing to do who was in the 11th century in Spain He died in Cordova. He says, "So the custom of the two in Babylon So to say what does it mean? No, we say it's synonymous to what? To Okay. So then he continues and he says What is he omitting or he does not mention fasting and there's no word for it's only what to say you wake up early and you go to before dawn and you ask for mercy This is one of the last in the 11th century. That's also the Rambam's opinion that you say only during the 10 days and we heard in some places and we heard some places starting to say when they said that at that time Moshe went back to Mount Si the third time and he came down with the secondur And if you want to add and to say more to God says that our custom is to do it from which by the way just as a side note the ancient minag is really to say it from that's what Ra says and later on is the Mak to say it four days beforeash was not in the time of the and then he says like that. These days are called what? Don't fast. Fasting is what is weakening you? Depressing. You need to stand and to say not seek God when he's close to you. Call him out when he's near you. They didn't say about what? fasting. They were talking about what is to thank him. If you want to be stringent with yourself and to fast, but don't forget, don't lose sight from what form the main purpose. The main purpose is to come closer to Hashem. So now what's the difference between Ashkinazim and it's not I don't want to generalize it but no no I will try really not to to it's very easy to fall into the trap and to say oh we canazim like to suffer that's why we want to fast this and then always have good time. No, I mean to wake up from shaloon, you know, every night to say, "Oh, it's not easy. It's not about it." I think it's more about h how do you shape or how do you envision your which also by the way even among it definitely changed in the last few decades. Most of the stories of that I grew up and I guess you grew up too when they were benching and the Kazan said everyone will start what? >> Trembling. >> Trembling in fear are coming. Now when I tell you yim it can be awesome days or awful days. You know in is in Hebrew nor can be awesome and can be what? Awful. Okay. So, the sense of fear and regret and trepidation, all of those things are part of the Ashkanazic DNA. And part of it, I would say, again, it's not my expertise, but from what I read is that there is a bit of an influence from the Christian understanding of what? Of >> suffering. Suffering. Again, that's not didn't determine how we see it, but there is an a somewhat of an influence, but also in the narrative that >> what >> Islam has that too. >> Different. >> Oh, we don't care about Islam. >> Very different. And also, let's put it like that. Different. So the has the tendency that's also it's the method of if you know a little bit about the gonim and it's not like inkazim you say something he said something he said something he said something and you add here in the time of the gonim no one else was allowed to make a only shiva shivaim which means to Shivot and all the questions of all the Jewish world would come to them. 90% of the Jewish world come to them and they will answer twice a year. That's it. Nissan. So if you have a problem with your chicken on I will highly recommend to you just do something with the chicken. Don't ask cuz you will wait for five months for an answer. And the answer was very zaps. Look at the for example the versus not that they were composed at the same time but for example very simple this is the question this is the answer so it's different different methods of learning different method of how you make but that's in the now in terms of the flavor of the hag why did I say that even theazi world changed a bit with the effect of we grew up with sense of day of judgment, right? But you go now to every yeshiva as there when they get to >> they dance, they sing, they clap their hands most the idea or the component of crowning Hashem as a king on us which is what a privilege it's something that you should show joy became now part of our culture. Look at Kabala Shabbat that we do now. Those things change in I don't know about your time. I can testify about my time. We did not have it. Some of the weirdos had it. But now I guess all became weirdos or that became the mainstream. Why? Because we understood that we need some kind of an integration and a combination between what mind and heart people are looking musical halal your time there was a musical hal who here went to a musical in his childhood didn't musical with guitar >> no I'm not talking about singing talking about two guitar, a drum, a ram. [laughter] We never heard about those things. Now you don't have it in true, but you don't you don't do it [laughter] must speak. Yeah. So Everything change but part of it changed because of what? >> Of the desire and the thirst for what? For what they call something for the nama. Do you want a proof of that? Go to woman this phenomena. Leave alone what I think about it. But yeah, I gave a dash about it once about what what are they looking for and can you create it not there? Can you create it in your own? It might be that the answer is no. But the idea of what that people are looking for something that it might be more than just the intellectual um experience but they are looking for other things to enrich the spiritual um experience. This is something that definitely our generation uh is going through. So you can criticize it, you can go with it, you can go against it, you can do that, you can say this, you can say no this is you can do whatever you want. in the framework of alaka that's for me like very important but also to understand that especially here we have the ambiguity of how to do it so between and I think in Israel you see more and more of what of integration which I think affects each other and I think it's a I think unless it borderline issue. It's a blessing. Um, so I think now we know pretty much a lot about and when we're going to say it five times during Yonipur, we need to understand that this is really what the essence of the day. And by the way, just as a side note, there is a foretic that all five filot are required. And if someone did not d in one of the filot, it's like there's mam and when you think about it is a pretty rigid because you know I didn't show up for ma so that means that I you know I was a little tired I came for but the idea is if we say it's really what one long with five revelations to it so there is a hashkafic thing in it even only if you agree with it or not but in terms of hashkaf it's This is the time to say you say it as one unit. Yes. strong wanted to feel something wanted to feel the connection >> probably because fasting even if you like it or not it put things in perspective you become weaker you start becoming a little bit more spiritual that's really what why we do it on yum kipur so yes I think people are looking for different things to connect to hashem and every generation has its own sent you an article about kinot and >> I just sent it you comparison >> how things have changed