Halachick & Moral Dilemmas from the Holocaust | Rabbi Shai Finkelstein

Uh, for whatever reason, there are no associates. Um, so uh um okay, I'll think about I'll talk about something else. Why not? Rabbis are never really out of words, right? So um okay, you know what? Let's talk about the following. Really, it's it's good to talk about it because Yashua is uh is Wednesday night uh Wednesday night Thursday and um I will talk first about about the following. You want to show us this week? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Thursday, Wednesday night, Thursday. So, one of the things that we that we see is that um you know there are interesting questions in the time of Yeshua. There's really a book. It's called Mima when they have um questions and answers from the shua. So I I'll from whatever I remember from years before I'll try to present you a few and um and then we'll talk not only about the um not only about the um aspect of every question but also about the time it was asked and what do I mean by that? So first and foremost let's just uh let's start with a with a simple question. Um, Rabbi, can I uh buy purchase whatever it is um IDs to show that I'm not Jewish? Can I purchase again? An ID that I'm not Jewish. Okay. some Jews who didn't look quote unquote Jewish, they asked the rabbi, can they buy what IDs, passports, whatever it is, and to basically pretend fake papers. Right now, it's not it was the question was not about faking the papers. The question was about faking your identity, which means at times of uh persecution, can you try to hide your Jewishness? Now I'm not talking about people who gave their kids to the church, you know. I'm talking about people in the ghetto. That's was the question that they asked. Look, we can get out of here somehow by faking by faking our identity and to to go free and we we don't look Jewish. So if that was in a quote unquote a normal time, not a sure. So then obviously what is the question here what's the question myitage can I if it was not the just today today I go and I go to the rabbi says rabbi I would like to also have another passport so I'm going to fake my identity and I'm going to put a little bit of a different picture but is that allowed so I will speak about what look you cannot fake papers it's you know you are lying to the government you are you are lying at the at the report. It's not nice. It's not right. It's not legal. It's not right. I will not talk about his identity as a Jew. He or she are not talking to me about you know changing their identity and to live like that. They just want to have another passport. Here the question is what? It's very different. The question here is to save yourself by not admitting to your identity and to your race. Yes. Oh, so here is the question very is that now so let's start from the beginning about and then we'll talk about the different conditions and the different times. Very good. So what do you think? We all know that there are three mitzvot that you must give your life for. Right? Now wait. So the question is now do you think all the mitzvot were at the same category and those three later on just remained or none of the mitzvot was in that category and these three were made up? Is my question clear? Which means we have 613 mitzvot let's say. Okay. So what was before the rabbis came along in Yuma and said that those three mitzvot you must give up your life for what was the discussion all the mitzvot under this category that you need to give your life and not to violate it and then the rabbi says no it's too much let's just skip it to three or none of them was under that category and the rabbi says you know what there are three mitzvah that are very important and you need to give your life for yes also say however If the person that Yeah, we're not there. We're not there yet. We're not there yet. I know what the Gar says, but we're not there yet. I'm asking the of the when the Garra says that there are three mitzvah that you need to give up your life for and not to violate them. My question to you is what was before? Was every mitzvah under this category that you must die and not violate or none of them was? And the rabbis just decided, you know what, those three, we're going to pick them. Were they a matter of being proactive or did they have somebody I mean were the rabbis being proactive in terms of saying here the 613 and and just taking it from the sky or there was the reason okay so now you're asking another question and the second question is why dafka these three we're not there yet now I heard here I overheard my nafkamina what do you think we are pretty close. So, oh that's the question. Yeah. So my so I'll tell you what's the is the first thought that I should have which means really there is no difference between putting and putting they all came from God right that's our faith so therefore there should not be any distinction between any of them it's if and if God and if God commanded you a and Someone else comes with a gun and tells you to do B. There is no option here. I need to do what God told me for every mitzvah. When you start playing with mitzvot, people will do what? Pick and choose. If you tell me that those three I need to die, that what I'm going to do, the rest of them are not that important. Which means the first thought can be that all the commandments were under this category that what that you need to what to die and not to violate. And why? Because they all were given me they all were given from God. So there is no distinction. How does it follow that there is no distinction because they were given by God. I don't see how that could if everything was given by God. How can you make distinction between them? It would be that God meant that some of the myth should be we don't but we don't know the other either. In other words, so what would you what will make what will make most sense if the king says to you you need to do A to Z that and if someone else tells you to do something else what should you do what the king say what the king says right from A to Z that's that's the simple understanding yes you know there's a hierarchy of mitzvot you have different punishments with different mitzvot so some are more severe punishments some are but that's the same thing somebody categorized them into No. So that's the that's in the Torah itself, right? That's in Okay. So, um, let me ask you a question. If it's what is the answer? Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Shabbat. What about Shabbat? No. Uh-huh. Mhm. That's what the rabbi says in one of their interpretations. Yeah. One of the and and they picked it because they picked those three you should die and not violate. There is a chicken and an egg there. Yeah. Okay. So, so the question here was the Torah itself in a way specify that you know for some of them you get a more severe punishment but it does not mean anything about what the violation of it in order to save your life. It might be that there are some a kind of hierarchy between mitzvot but it doesn't mean that you can still violate it in order to save your life which means there is a there is a gap between the suggested punishment to the violation of it because of a threat to your life. Okay, one more. So now we have an issue with the first question. I didn't forgot the second question. I didn't forget the third question. I didn't forget the fourth question. Okay. Let's start with the first question. So what was before? Now why am I'm saying what was before? My kamina why do I care? Because if you tell me that at the beginning all the mitzvot were under this category that you need to die and not to violate and then the rabbi said you know what we can't do that it's too much which means we understand the reality and there are going to be only three mitzvah that we're going to pick from all those 613 and say for them you must die and and not violate it and why because I can go one by one but let's just state in general way those three basically gives you the DNA of your Judaism and your connection to God. We all understand you going to decide who is going to live and who is going to to die. This is like acting like God and and Gilot you are basically taking God's uh God's to you and you decides you know how to bring life to this world against against God and we can find common denominator we can find that each one of them has a different thing but most of them became part of Jewish identity okay so that's one way to look at it then there is a second way to look at that and say no none of the mitzvot were under this category. Meaning God had nowhere in his mind that a person must die uh and not violate his commandment. Uh and why? Because he says God wants us to be alive. What's the point of if let's just imagine that there is someone who puts a gun to every Jews, every Jew, every Jew everywhere puts a gun to him and says, "Okay, if you don't do this, you're going to die." God forbid what will happen to the Jewish people, right? So it makes no sense. So the rabbis came along and says, "Look, even though you don't need to give up your life, there are three mitzvah that you need to." And why? It's what makes you a Jew. You believe in God and one God and not in an idol. And the same thing with now later on not later on it was almost the same time let's say the rabbis came up and said that was only in quote unquote normal time in the time that there is religious persecutions then even the way you tie your shoes you need to give up your life. Jews have a way to tie their shoes. So one is the color of the shoelace. Um that's a and b also the way we do it. We put the right first then left first tie the left tie the right. Okay. But even which is like a nowhere in the Torah. So uh now that's and that's exactly what the G says basically that even something that's not in the Torah it's not even the Ramadan it's a minag you give up your life for so we understand that a time of decree of religious persecution this is a different time that requires different requirements basically requirements because religious persecutions they are not against your body. They're not going to kill you. They don't care about killing you. It's not ham. It's more of the yeim. They didn't want to kill us. They wanted to kill our Torah. And therefore, when they are after the Torah, so then everything under this category including what mean it will be in you need to give up your life even for what? For how you tie your shoes. Now this is an interesting thing because the GRA was able to do what the GRA was able to distinguish between what they call persecution of the bodies which means they wanted to kill you. They didn't care if you're religious or not. They wanted to kill you or religious persecution which means they don't care that you are alive. They just don't want you to be religious. Okay. Jew or religious? No. A Jew. a religious Jew. Well, the third one that killed Jews, but don't forget we're talking about the time that there was there are no streams of Judaism too much. I mean, yeah, there are hellenistic Jews. So, uh you can call it another stream. Okay. So, now we establish that what there is what we call a regular time when you give up your life for mitzvah and then you have Okay. Now let's do a little bit of Jewish history. At the time of Yemen Benim the crusaders. Okay. So the first crusader was 1096 and then later on we had through the centuries. Basically if I will ask you to try to define what was the goal of crusades of the crusaders was what? Toapt to capture Jerusalem. But what did they do to the Jews on the way? They killed them. Why did they kill them? Now, most of the times they asked them to convert. They put a siege on the on the city and on the Jewish uh village, whatever it is. And interestingly enough, the Jews will run to the church to be protected and then they will be killed. Okay. Most of the most of the times. But the thing is is that they asked them to what to violate their religion to basically to convert to Christianity. And then we have testimonies. is the Jews obviously some of them did by the way some of them didn't and also they they killed themselves in order not to fall into the hands of the Christians whatever it is but basically I will define crusades as what as a religious persecution right they wanted you to convert to Christianity good it's not good but that's what it was when you come to the sha so if I now a rabbi in the time of the shua those are the texts that I have right I have three mitzvah that you need to give up your life and not to violate. However, in the time of of a religious persecution, you give up your life even for what? For all the way you tie your shoes. In the time of the crusades when I have some shervot, I have questions about what should I do when the Christians come to the town, right? And there it was pretty easy. Pretty easy. I mean, pretty easy to answer. You cannot convert into Christianity. Okay. And therefore And therefore h options. Okay, I'll take few minutes about it. The option that is the most uh reasonable one is you tell them I'm not and then they kill you. The thing is that many Jews didn't do that. They killed themselves before the Christians came. when they saw that the Christians are coming to town and they knew exactly what will happen they killed themselves and they even killed their children. We have testimonies from Ben something uh from the 12th century who testifies about it just and then therefore the 12th century the 13th century rabbis and until the 16th century there was a discussion if what they did was correct or not. Some said sure it was correct because um you can't uh you can't take the risk that your kids will be Christians. It's better for them to die. Later on the Maharam Rottenborg already in the 13 in the 13th century in Germany already questioned it and he says what's going on here like since when we are allowed to do that and the Maharashan in the 16th century says that they did something that was prohibited. It's very interesting. But that's what they did. Is that after or during the Inquisition that he said that? I mean, oh, the Marshall 16th century in Poland. Oh, 16. Okay. Yeah. But Raen Rottenber and others basically questioned what they did. They didn't want to argue with them because what they called Ashkenaz, the pious people of Ashkanas. And so we don't touch them. They are pious and they are righteous. But we have a problem with it with what they did. Because what does it mean? Let them kill you. You don't need to what? Actively kill yourself. Meaning when someone comes to you with a gun and says, "Okay, violate Shabbat and if not, I'm killing you." You don't take the gun and shoot yourself. Okay? You let him do it if he wants to. You may not kill you after all. I mean, well, right. That's also true. You don't need to actively work for it. Don't do his job. Let him do his job. I mean if he wanted to jump based on the fact that the people felt that they would not be able to withstand the torture and they would would be would become Christian and therefore they they rather than that that outcome coming about that's why they but then you need to bring but then you need to bring a proof that you are allowed to kill yourself because you are afraid of torture and the only proof that you have is Sha and Shimong and Sha might be unique because he was a king and he was afraid of the humiliation of Am Israel and the Tal talks about it. uh the Rishonim are talking about that that exact issue. Are you allowed to kill yourself knowing that you're going to be tortured? Because don't forget there is a interesting modern outcome that can come out for it, which is if someone suffers and is afraid of a medicine or treatment or whatever, can he pull the plug? Okay, we can come up with many things. But let's go back to the show up, right? It's a very uh interesting topic. So, you're with me? Everyone's with me. No one I didn't lose anyone on the way. Okay, good. So the thing is is that now if I'm if I'm if you are the posk in the sha leave alone that you don't have books and everything but let's say you remember everything by heart and you remember all the stories and everything and you know that in the time of the crusades okay so there was those three options right and people did whatever they did but it was a religious persecution when you come to the sha and this is something very interesting because you know what now I'm I'm I'm digressing when you look at the sha you have few ways to think about You can look at that as another pom like what we had all Jewish history or you can say no no no that was not a pog that was a massive massacre that was planned scale quantity and race that's why shah is very different than any other porn and it's not only because of how many millions of Jews were killed but because it was planned with a government and a country. German. So the idea is all the other crusaders, okay, many of them just join in. Why not, you know, spoil, they were Christians, they were whatever. Here you have a country with an army plan even when they see that they are losing. We came from Germany uh a few weeks ago. We went on a show mission to Germany. There is a a rail motiv track that it says that they deported Jews from Germany. They found 18 Jews and they transported them to Awitz on I think it was September of 1944 or beginning of 1945 when they know that they are losing. It's crazy. So it's systemic. It's it's something that was in in in the country in the government which is it's not it's not normal. So if you are a post now at the time of the Shaw even if you don't have this historical perspective because we are talking about now 2025 you're in 1940 someone comes to you you're in a ghetto and a Jew comes to you and says can I fake those documents I'm not talking about yet you know other things I'm talking about. So how do you define the shawah religious persecution or to eliminate the Jews in a to elimin eliminate the Jews or religious persecution? So no because Purim and Kanuka Purim again the story of Purim elimination of Jews Kanuka elimination of Judaism. What's going on in Germany is that in a way there is both. It was not only religious persecution because the the Germans didn't tell you okay go convert to Christianity or convert to Nazism. This is not the issue. But they went after you. I mean, and they really love religious Jews, right? In order to mock them and to humiliate them, but they they were against Jews as a race. So, and they wanted to basically to kill and destroy every Jew. So, you have in a way you have some kind of a combination of both of religious persecution because definitely they closed the shoes, they didn't allow you to d and things like that and then at the same time they wanted to kill you. So now that's the what so much. Yeah. So now let's pause here for just a second. When I say kidash, what do you have in mind? That you die for your that you die for God, right? For at least for this three mitzvot, right? Okay. What else? You live that what? Or you live. Or you live. Very good. The sha in a way changed the perception and the understanding of kidushem until the sha kidushem was what to die for godm in the sha during the shua a lot of the people who told their children and you hear it in many of the testimonies you're going to survive you must survive you must live in order to tell the story which means the kadushem will be what? To live not to die. Now who would like to be a pose at that time? You understand the gravity of the question? On one hand you are telling that Jew, okay, you going to want to have those fake documents. You will become Christian and I don't know what will happen to you religiously, spiritually. You're probably going to want to immerse yourself in that society and boom, gamu. Not sure that you're going to come back, but at the same time, I'm saving your life. And there is an option that might that you might keep your Jewishness somehow. So, only they only benefit. In other words, if they don't come back, then they should have killed themselves. What? Grandchildren come back. So if somebody some somebody's Jewish and they're forcing you to die to to to convert or they'll kill you then if you know that you are not going to be how do you know how do you know you don't and that's why people do themselves don't know that that's the that's the problem that's the problem with in a way look there is Um there is a story in the Quran in Gin that talks about 200 or 400 boys and girls that were put on on a boat at the time of the Romans and they all they both I mean both genders understood why they are being taken okay for sexual abuse. Okay. So the women came to the boys, the girls came to the boys and they asked them, "If we jump, are we going to have heaven?" And one of the boys says, "Yes, sure." And they jumped. And then the boys realized, "Oops, look like if no, no, no." They said, "If the women jumped, we definitely need to need to also to jump." Okay. So that's first, can you learn from? That's question number one. But even if you do learn some fromada, the question is that the question that needs to be asked is if you know that or you assume that you are going to be treated in a way and you don't want to be treated like that. Okay. Are you allowed to take your life in your own hands and there is a dispute about it. So we are not that sure. So the thing is if you are a proc what I wanted to show you is that first kidushem is not the same anymore. A b and also as a side note in medat now what does it mean kushim? Okay. Going into the army fighting, dying for the country, right? Living for the country, living a life of ethical and moral society. Kushm in a way, and this is you can take it as a dasha for your mat. In Medina is kushem became the widest most enriched phrase in Jewish history unlike ever before. Why? Because here this is the birthplace of am is and here we can live and we can build our society and if our society if is ethical and moral that's become a kushm for all the nations. When people protect our land and even if God forbid they die, they die on listen to the we don't say just we say everything becomes together God the land and the nation it's not only one thing when a Jew die in poem he dies for kushem that's it not the nation not the land here in medat you have it all and All the eyes are on the on the land of Israel. So as a sec at that time it's very interesting the sika was I think one one post says that they are allowed to in order to save their lives and the other post says no like every other question but uh but the idea was that's was the debate which means how do I define the sha and especially when they didn't have all the information you know at the beginning many of them thought what it's another pum okay we had it in the Jewish history we're going to have it again and then later on we'll be okay that was not the issue but we knew about it only later so that's one uh that's was one example of uh one example of for question uh let me give you another example excuse me what was the what who were the biggest uh gdole that had the argument against each other I don't remember I don't have a social I'm trying to tell you things that I read 20 years ago so I don't remember the the name um yeah you give your life for every mitzvah but this is not a mitzvah to die okay one more I'll give you one more example Um, okay. It was a known fact that you must wear a hat at the round call. What do they call it? When they call your name and they had a call. You must have a hat. I don't know how many of you went to Yadvashm, but one of the testimonies I don't know if you I remember that as a child. One of the testimonies are the mash at the beginning the guy the one of for Holocaust survivors he he told this story and then he said like he was crying he says I took someone's head knowing that he will be shot because he does not have a head. I lost my head and I took someone else's head. Now, he did not know if that person is alive or dead when he took his hat. He was on the little bench there and he saw a hat and he just took the hat. It might be the dead person was already dead or maybe he would not wake up in the morning. But the question is what is the question here's that is in which means can you save yourself with someone else's property. Okay this is the question now when it's when we study it in a b midrash it's about theory. Yeah, it's a nice theory. It's a nice discussion to discuss it. Yes. No. Now it's come to real life. Can you basically save your life by risking someone else? Someone else's life. We always asked the question, should you risk your life in order to what? To save someone else's life. Here the question was, can I save my life by risking someone else? So this is another example of a question in the sha that was that was very very different. Okay. Um okay one more question and I I think I will conclude with that one. Um okay. Did you see this movie uh woman in gold? Yes. Okay. Very nice movie. That used to be you know when movies had some content. So that that that movie had some content. Um for those who didn't watch it or they don't want to admit that they watched it. So it's about a woman that had a paint that was stolen from her house and if I'm not mistaken the painting painting uh and um and then it was uh placed in a museum I think in Austria no in Vienna and uh and she claimed it and there was back and forth and a lot of anti-semitism at the end she got it back that was an good ending to the story. You can just imagine if they found one and she was able to get it. You can understand how much stolen art we have. Okay, but but that's not the issue. The issue is the following. We know that you can take possession over things that were have what is a heare that you let go. Yeah. you have no hope to get them or you have uh no desires to get them or you excel ex you yourself expressed your uh your understanding that you're not going to get it back right that's called okay when people lose something so talks about lot about which means you lose hope you lose ownership you basically relinquish your ownership from that object Yeah. Okay. Let me let me make it as complicated as I can. The Schwartz family, the Cohen family. Coen is that the most generic one, right? The Cohen family donated a crown to the Torah to the Shul in Wo. And after Crystal or while in crystal when the shul was uh put on fire in Austria. Okay. Where I mo went into the burning sh and rescue the crown. The Cohen family was there and they stayed in their home. They didn't move. I mo ran into the shoe and was able to save the crown. Not because I wanted to steal it, God forbid, just because I tried to to save whatever I could. With the crown, I also saved some siduim and that were given by the Ley family. I took them. By the way, the same night the Ley family was massacred, was butchered, were killed. Okay, complicated enough. Pretty good, right after the show, there was a Cohen survivor from this Mr. Cohen family. And he says to this little mo, "Thank you so much for saving this crown." But it's mine. It's my family. It gives me memory. It's my grandfather's. It says it. It says, "Mr. Co." I'm not talking about what Mo's reaction to it. My question Exactly. Is mo is the rightful owner or really the rightful owner of the what is the question here? This is what we will call estimation of mindfulness. What do I mean by that? The Jews at that time when they when they saw the synagogues are on fire or when they were evacuated quote unquote forced evacuation from their homes and they left everything there. Did they have in mind that they are coming back to claim it or they understood immediately they are not coming back and therefore it's not theirs anymore. Okay. Now before we answer this question like any other question or most of questions you need to also understand the time and the circumstances. I would assume that Jews that were falsely evacuated in 1939 little different than those who were evacuated in 1941 and 1942 because rumors start spreading. they start and to understand that they are not putting on a train in order to have a nice field day but that's going to be perhaps for some of them the last uh train ride and for some of them they're going to go into a torture and hard work and hardship but the question and also you can say that when you are in such a rush and they give you you know half an hour to pick up your stuff and everything you basically say what wherever I leave I leave whatever I leave I leave now I'm not talking about you know, beyond the letter of the law and how to be kind and gracious and I'm talking about the dean. So, what is the status of property that was confiscated or stolen or taken or saved in the time of the sha if the rightful owner there no dispute by the way that this cohen is the rightful owner? I mean, Mosha does not dispute it. He just dispute the fact that what that it's still yours because of what? Because of the conditions and the situation that it was found or was saved because at that time there was yush. Is itly true that it really would have belonged to co anyway? They gave it as as an adult. Don't don't don't focus on that detail. They gave it on a loan. Okay. I I I solve your problem. Yes. Okay. But Mosha's not saving his life by taking it. No, no, no. Saving life. I mean, the man with the hat, that's a totally different Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, we moved from that. Yeah. Yeah. That was too painful. This one was too Yeah. Thomas brings me the memories from What was the purpose of his saving? What was the purpose of his saving? Not to gain the crown, not to get ownership on the crown, just to save a holy object from being burnt. That's it. He risked his life for that. That also might be another question. Should but he did it. He couldn't see Jewish objects being religious sham sh was burned down and everything in it that they knew that he saved it. No, they didn't know. No, later on they realized it. Okay, now I'll give you another question that it's in the same along the same lines. Most of you came from America, right? Most of you abroad. We all know the story. Jews built a community. Then they become little wealthier and they move because of different things, wealth or uh the neighbors or whatever it is and they leave almost everything behind. Um let's say there is a sh in a little city and no more Jews. Z now the Torah, the Beimma, the chandelier, the rabbi's chair, the rabbi study, the muza, the bathroom, you know, everything has the bathroom does not have a name there. But that that's the hardest thing to sell. You know, no one wants his name on the bathroom. even though I think that's the most visited place, but whatever it is. So, the idea is is that you have a shoe that now it's empty. No Jews in there in town, nothing. And there is the Torah that was donated by the Cohen family and the chandelier that was donated by the Ley family. Yeah. The the Cohen family all intermarried and they're not there and they care about the Torah. Like I care about the ballerina from Russia. Somebody took it. No. No. It's there. It's there. Left in the shoe. There's no one there. Question. Can you take those stuff and give it to a different Jew? An active sh or you need to get the consent from the family. I'm not talking about being a mench even though it shouldn't contradict each other. There's no more. They left it. They left it all. They are not even their take it. They left it. They didn't expect to ever have it. Okay. So it's not theirs anymore. It's generations later. You don't even know where the family is. Okay. Some let's say that you know where the family is. Loan it. Loan it. That's what I I told Dr. Kermire. Yeah. Michelle because in this case they have their own free will basically walked away from it. So I would say if we're going by in this that they basically relegated those things to whereas to me with the ground just because they didn't go in their right to pull it out themselves very good distinction Michelle suggested such as says add a little city with no Jews anymore and they basically cognitively decided what I'm I don't care. The fact that I didn't jump into the fire to save my uh grandfather's uh crown means that I'm normal. That's it. I'm not jumping into a fire to try to save a crown. But I didn't lose hope. I didn't give up on that crown. So those are some of the questions that uh that you had uh during the Shua and some others who are very very tough questions. Um, oh, basically what we always try to do is you ask them and whatever. But uh, but basically this is a a very a very difficult question to determine because simple is what I throw it to the garbage. That's it. That's that simple thing. Oh, what we did on Yeah. I don't I don't consider it. That's nothing. problem is when people don't express it. People don't basically say anything and there is a condition and this condition it's also very some people don't afraid of fire and they jump into the fire to save whatever they can and some people do care also maybe mo was just the closest to the shoe and the coins family the met starts running to the shoe to try to save it when they got there the crown is gone so they thought the crown was burnt or the crown was stolen but they said no we are going to try to find it so you don't No, because no one said anything about it. The painting is another I think it's different. Sure. Why is she did not she she knew she had a painting that they took and she actively went to find it. That's wonderful. But at that time that it was taken from her was at that moment and that's why it's so hard to determine at that time when she was in Oshitz. Okay. And and every day she tried to what to find a piece of bread. Did she said every morning after woman in gold, you're going to be mine? I don't know. No, no. It's just like she was she for me or not. Meaning people when they were in the in the show and this is I know it's hard because it's emotionally so difficult but you you need to ask yourself what did they have in mind? Did they have in mind just let me survive this day or they had in mind we're going to survive and we're going to go back to our homes we're going to claim it or we're going even to stay in Poland. So it depends it depends so much on the person and it depends so much on the situation and the conditions that they lived in. Okay with with that um I think I'm out of questions. Um and next time I hope we will have associates. Yeah. Thank you.