From Verse to Verdict: The Evolution of Lo Titgodedu (Pt II) | Rabbi Shai Finkelstein | Feb 3rd 2026

is in memory of Sylvia David by their families should be okay. we are um which means from the simple understanding of the to something that became a that we all like to um quote and we start going through the sources really seeing that means what just don't cut yourself when god forbid you experience grief and then we see that the >> excuse me um Rabbi Jeremy Holo uploaded if People want to see if they haven't got a source sheet on their phone. He uploaded the file for this show on >> great u you can have it. Thank you. >> No, I have another one. >> Oh, you have Oh, wow. Okay. Thank you. >> Anybody need a source sheet? Yes. >> Okay. >> Thank you. >> Okay. So basically we uh we did what we saw that the idea of floated good do becomes basically the norm and the interpretation for this puk and now we are trying to figure out what what is the definition or what are the definitions for lot do we spoke about if you remember some people put fill in some people don't put fill in some people walk a day during the day some people don't all those things that we spoke about last time okay so now we are on um you know what let's just do Let's start with page which page three. Okay. Thank you so much. >> Page three. Okay. >> Do you see? Okay. The second source on page three. This is a quote from the first Mishna in Migila and that's very appropriate. We are okay 30 days before Purim. So we know that you can read the on the 11th on the 12th on the 13th 14th 15. Please don't ask me. I was asked enough times before purim, rabbi, I'm going to be in Tel Aviv in New. I'm going to be inval if you need me call me. But not now. Here we are talking about what has basically five different dates that you can read the now 14th and 15th we know from the meg itself, right? Okay. What about 11, 12 and 13? So the migilla talks a lot about it and it's really forakim okay for the people from the villages when they come into the city they sell their um their products when we buy it for sudatim and some of them because if purim falls on a let's say on on a Sunday so they can't come on that Sunday so I need to prepare the meal before so they will come on a Thursday so if let's say purim is Sunday so let's say 14th is a Sunday so Thursday will be 11th Okay. So that's why we will do that. But that's not the issue. The issue is says to I don't understand. You give me now five options to when to read the which means the people in the village right here will read it when? On the 11th. I will read it in when the 15th. And in Tel Aviv they read it in 14th and in a different place they will read it in the 12th. So that's auda of what that it seems to be more in the same place. Okay, I put in you don't put finade and we d in the same sh. Okay, we sit in the same uh same bench here. Or I don't do and in the next street they do it. That I can understand. But if in they do it on the 15th and in kibuts whatever they do it in on the 12th that's should be under what about that's also right because we do only one one let's do two days it's also but so the so what is the basic assumption that we need to work with that it seems to be that according to when he asked the question in his mind lot means what exactly what I spoke about which means even if it's somewhere else they do it differently you need to create some kind of a unified way that everyone does the same thing everywhere every place so says to him So says that we're not sure if it or you know what is >> okay anonymous >> the what >> the anonymous narrator >> okay that sounds very very good uh but it's and it's and it's true okay so I need to give a little bit of an introduction because I will repeat that expression a few times so we need to define it one once once for all. So we know that we have time of the Mishna, we have different generations, okay? Jerusalem Talmud, the Babylonian Talmud, okay? But then you have, you know, who wrote the Talmud? Who wrote it down? H we could sit it for many hours and we'll still not figure it out. But and that >> early >> the early >> Gonim Okay. uh who started the composition of the Talmud. So according to the Rambam and many others is Raven >> Ravashi. So that's fifth century. Now we know that there are other who came little later and we have insertions in the Talmud that we know that are not from that time. They were much later. We also have Gonim from the seventh century, 8th century who wrote something but who basically compos it. So according to the it's basically the idea of what they call stamim um a generation after the amim or after after the amim okay and they basically start composed the talmud into a book that we know they put the sugot together and basically they created sometimes quote unquote a fake negotiation in order to get to what to the conclusion that I want. There are at least two that I can say quickly two sugo that mostly be they are the one to begin the attracted the and they are basically fake negotiation back and forth in the in order to get to what to the conclusion that I want. So for example in bababatra the idea of that I can damage you with seeing things in your yard and to have a wall. Okay. So that's for a page and a half. It's basically in order to get to the conclusion and also the kush also the first d and a half it's how do we know that? How do I know that something is which is much later and something is amoric? How do I know >> the what? >> It's not attributed to any >> not attributed to any mandama. True. But sometimes you can also find it with true but that's one measure. What other measures? Think if I will give you a text and I will tell you okay one of them is one of them is what would you say? date when this transpired with or whatever were later. >> Yeah, but how do you know that they were later? What is the >> Yeah, but how would can you find it in the text? >> Maybe they quote the earlier source. >> Maybe they quote an earlier source. So if the earlier source is another Amora, it's obviously it's you become suspicious that maybe they quote someone who was before them. Very good. Okay. >> Yeah. But if they quote ra and [clears throat] the am which means they said but they didn't say who but they say in the name of Rava. So you know that they came after Rava. Okay good. What else? The language. >> The language it's the it's Aramit but the language is different. You need to have a little bit of experience but you can find you can see that the the language is different but not only the the language is different the matter of interests what interested the am that they try to understand the Mishna theim are there to understand more what the and the words of the so there are different ways to see that so when I see here I I'm not sure if that's what does not say but it might be that itself the says what you told what how come that the different dates for reading the megal is not what do says who told you that That pursue comes to what? To teach you that you can't do that. Maybe do comes to teach you to that what that you can't cut yourself when you experience grief. Is like to hurt yourself. So one solution is the Torah says >> to yourself. >> No, no, >> I could sayu means don't cut yourself and that's it. But from the fact that the Torah says go it means two things in the word gou. Godu don't cut yourself and also don't create what different groups. Okay. in the itself says the already applies there are different >> yeah 14th and 15th but there I can understand and there is a reason for that because there are miracle extended >> not considered >> but not 11 12 13 yeah not 11 12 13 so >> how would you say don't cut yourself is going to do all itself >> um I think you can I'm not an expert on evil grammar mash But I think you can still say lotoo >> that that's the or the I mean that's the the regular one to cut it yourself >> you want to say that should should say tu okay so basically you are rejecting what the says which very good which means which means you know which means basically you can't say that >> yeah you can't reject the other idea okay So I think maybe they're asking your old question in a way maybe do it comes to teach you what it comes to teach you that um it's come to teach you only the idea of what not create not to create your own groups. So the says no it should have say okay said so basically we have the word do that you must learn somehow two things from it the first one is the simple interpretation which is what >> don't cut yourself second one is what >> don't cut yourself from the community meaning don't create separate groups so here is where is the common denominator Because if not, you need to think about it. If not, it's crazy. >> Oh, so like comes as a result of the what is going to do. Okay. So, which means whenever you see, okay, you know what? I look at your faces. I I need to give another little introduction. Many times in the Talmud, you will see that the rabbis derive or they derive some kind of an idea from a puk. And you look at the puk and you say to yourself, where where did they get things that thing from? Okay, like from where? Not the beginning, not the end, not the middle. So there is a lot a lot of research about how exactly was what was the methodologia methodology of to deriving um lessons or from okay sometimes it's like very smooth. It's really wonderful, but sometimes it's hard. I'll give you an example just as an example. Um, okay. I'll give you a bas. Okay. This is a verse inim. Can someone explain it to me? Sham. Okay. Sham. It's easy. Byamin Byamin young that's okay he's the youngest of all the tribes >> what is sleeping >> sleeping or so what is >> went to sleep >> let someone else to sleep slept when the rabbi spoke or whatever right none of it is true the midrash says Yam, who was the first one to jump into Yamsu and that's one midrash but that midrash and not only that it's the continuation of the puk is what stones >> the ministers of Uda what is rigmatam stones >> threw stones on them they stoned for jumping into the sea first and what was the reward what is rigma malut that they became a kings yeah okay I'm not we're not doing midrash here so I'm just I just I know that it will get you out of your seats right But the idea is that how could they get to some such an explanation from this puk okay so they said that's by the way with zeroic implications when it becomes to implications obviously becomes even even stronger so here for the word do always when I try to understand sukim and how they derive it from if I can find some kind of a of a common thread it make it it makes it easier so that's why I said what you got to do is not don't cut yourself and don't had yourself form the community. Okay. Don't create your Okay. So, whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you so Yeah. Why are you so upset? You saw in the Mishna that says what that you can read them on the 11th 12 13 14 15 and you said oh my gosh this is what did go to do what are you so upset there is another Mishna this is it's called a place that what that the custom is and what what is the subject matter of that chapter is that ones in some places they will go to work until midday and would not why what's the is how to view is that already a ytov from the morning or is that yto only form after which is according to the Torah okay now there is another opinion of one of the that you can already slaughter even though there is in your house even though it says you can do Definitely you don't eat it until the night but you can already make the in the morning and that's why it's already considered as what as what else we don't do we don't say right we don't mdash but we don't say why because it's >> it's we have the same thing applies when it's also somewhat of a yto already okay so basically So says to what are you so upset? We saw a different that says exactly the same thing. So we didn't we don't think that it's go to do excuse me in this case. It's a it's not a case where the source says you do this and somewhere else you do that. Mhm. >> Not necessarily. Definitely. >> I hear I I hear what you say, but it's not so much of a it's it's basically saying there are options because we also say that when you go to that place, you should do what they do, which is so basically they decided for themselves. But that's what did not bother Rashakish. in our reaction was. Soaki says, "I don't understand what you're talking about. I'm talking about a prohibition. you do and you tell me what about minhagim so that what bothered him okay if you do work if you don't do work I also also can justify of me not doing work as what as I'm just unemployed okay or I'm sick so I can't work today which means if I go if I don't work does not mean that I'm keeping a some kind of a which means says toan you are giving me an example for minhagim I'm not interested in minim I'm interested in what in cases that there is so therefore um [clears throat] So he says to you tell me that I gave you an example which is only minhag and that's why it's not a good it's not a good answer. It's not true because when it comes to this of doing work or not ones [clears throat] presents it as so when says so it's not only a mean it's what it's so I gave you a good example so the says So the says when someone see who doesn't go to walk ones he doesn't say ah he holds like [snorts] and I hold like and that's why it's loted good to do when I see Ruven who doesn't go to work on what do I say >> he's sick Why >> he's unemployed but I don't think that what that he's doing like BMI which means which is interesting according to that if I can somehow explain your behavior which is not like mine it will not be under the under the category of what of what you going to do. Well, what if he just >> Yeah, but I don't know. Which means if I can create a perception that I'm not doing that because I disagree with you, it's fine. Now, that's in something that people can somehow come up with a solution, right? Come up with a some kind of an idea or explanation or justification. What happened when you can't? So then what did go to do will come in. Okay. Now the gar continues. So now we are bringing another example. Um okay so it's a bit of a complicated uh issue but I'll try to explain it as much as I can. Okay. What is not not talking about they are called because they are creating what is it? Who was a famous? [snorts] Which means what is is someone is getting married with a wife and then he gets what? Another one. Another wife. The second wife is >> because she makes things narrow. Okay. She makes things difficult. Okay. So that's called Now what happens when Yeah. That's called um >> yeah not to conf be confused with but that's true. So okay. So in a case where you have someone who was married and his wife died without he died without children. So his wife is becoming what? >> Yeama. Okay. Now let's say um okay I'll try to make it as simple as I as I can because uh with you can't make it simple but I'll try. Um let's say that >> the brother who died he had a wife and he also had meaning he had >> two >> two wives. Now let's say that this that his first wife he's somehow she's related to his siblings and they cannot she's related to his siblings to the dead brother and they can't marry her can they marry that okay is that s is meaning she's connected to the original wife so whatever the fate of the original wife will be her fate as well or she can be a separate entity. You with me? >> Who? >> No. Can she get married? Not Not to be the second wife. The second second wife had children. So she wouldn't be any high. >> Yeah. So she's just she's a widow. >> She can get married with whoever she wants. >> Does she have to marry the other? >> No, she doesn't need to. The question if she can. >> Okay. So, so I think I made it as simple as I can without taking you too much into uh into the sugia. Okay. So, basically what what says that they are allowed they are allowed. Yeah, they are allowed and bet says um you so probably did whatever they thought and betel did whatever they thought. So that's obviously creates what? So the gam says no difference says no no no they expressed their opinion but they did not follow it. Why didn't they follow it? because they didn't want to make what do they said that the is that you are allowed and what do you think they did they did it don't tell me stories that they didn't they did >> they did according to to >> betami did according to betam did according to which means they didn't care so much about the rotas Whenever there's a disagreement between who rules that it's according to who rules? >> Oh, that's a that's a major question. Who said that is like a bet? So, we have a we have a heavenly voice that says that we have this between. So, that's a heavenly voice. Who >> five times or something like No, there are 18 times in but but just one second. Who heard this heavenly voice? [laughter] >> The same people who wrote it, right? So do we have like a a a recording of that heavenly voice? No, we have a faith that whatever the rabbi said that that's true, right? >> Who said it? >> So if somebody follows Bahai and >> he deserve he deserve death. >> He deserved death. How do we know? You remember how you need to situate yourself when you say the schma in the morning and in the evening and Rabbit was walking on his uh on his journey whatever it is he was walking and I leaned over like almost like sleeping to say it in the evening and he was attacked and the says good it was good because you followed Beta and if you beta you deserve death. Now when exactly that was composed and when exactly that was um decided it's very interesting to know if you remember we spoke here I think about the the first about the the leaning of the hands we did it here I think so the first yeah we we had like eight weeks about it the first it was between do you lean your hands on the animal on ytov and um and there we saw that bama tried to overcome bet and even force Hel to lie to some extent but after that Baba bin Buddha was the one to what even though he was from Betamay he says what so by the way it's not only if you look at there are many places that decides that codes with one person versus the other except of for example >> besides Six exceptions. Okay. Rabaka versus his colleagues. His colleagues takes over and his colleague. He remembered exactly clearly. Okay. >> Okay. I can give you a list that at the end somehow someone decided that the halai codes with A, B, and C. Now you want I sorry I just need to finish. I I can't stop here. Um you bring me to to discuss it's not here but whatever it's we all follow now what book basically? Who wrote when 16th century invat how exactly the came to his conclusions? >> Two out of three. Who are the three? Who are the lucky three? Rambam >> right? Sounds fair. >> No. Why Rabbiter Fasi and Rambam were basically almost always the same. Reef comes from a Faldi tradition. Obviously the Rambam also the palmid of the reef the rimigash was the Rambam's teacher. So you can understand that it comes from one lineage and then you have the ro. Now first and foremost who told Caro that he can pick only these three. Do you know how many rishonim we have? How many gonim we have? Who told him just to pick those three? So I can hear that the reef tried to codify the Rambam definitely codify the and the ro did the same. So I can understand why these three but there are others who codified the the codified the okay many others. Okay it's not necessarily these three. Now after you pick these three in a way it's an there is a a an unfroness that it's built in in the system cuz mostly it's going to be two against one. So who told him that? No one. He decided that that's the best thing because there are just too many. And then we start following it right you know they say what does that mean by the way everything depends on maz even the Torah in the in the which Torah do you take yeah there I will say that it's not so much about mazal it's about your connections with the gabay okay but uh but the idea is is that even that so the I Do you want two minutes about the shuhan? I'll give you just Yeah. Yeah. Seems to be Yes. I think I guess I don't need to ask. Um everything is better than what did go to do. Um Shuhan did something very similar to what the Rambam did. It's all about publicity. Besides the fact that obviously they are publicity publicity I mean I'm not God forbid taking anything from the Rambam and the brilliant people scholars. I'm not here. I'm not. But I can be the most brilliant person ever and I can write things but it without distributing it, no one knows who you are. >> So, but if my book is in every sh in town and in every B midrash and every time you Google something, a question my name comes up. Even if you don't know me, you're going you're going to Oh, the same time. Yeah, my name came out, right? Yeah. >> Um what? >> Oh, I got the Rambam. What he did and we know he wrote and he gave to people his writings. This is why many times you will see different Got in the Rambam. Why? because the rambom would change his mind from time to time. So I can get version number one and you can get number five. In number one it says in number five it says mut in the national library in the national library. Um I know Israel there was one there was an exhibition of the Rambam and in one of the pages yes which means the Rambam says this page omit it now there's no PDF you can't send emails to everyone he gave it you know hey guys you know paragraph 4 page 25 omit it delete it doesn't work like that so but what the Rambom did he made sure to give an a copy of his book to everywhere he could. Ysef Caro did something very similar. He published his book in Kushta which is close to Israel in Turkey. That's when we had good relationships with them and that was 16th century. Since then it's terrible. um and it was cheaper and also what he did he testifies it on himself many of his sources he got from printed book he didn't go to the manuscripts now don't forget the printing revolution already happened in the 14th century we're talking about 16th century so the books are better accurate but he didn't go to the manuscripts [clears throat] because he didn't want quote unquote to waste time so he created the shuhan And then he went to print it as quickly as he could. And he was also a very assertive, not assertive like anger, God forbid, but very dedicated, committed, uh, goal oriented person. And you can see sometimes in his writing which means what is this is what I demand people to act and in all its neighborhood countries which is Syria, Iraq, Iran whatever it is. So part of the idea is that how did how did we get there? Oh, with BC and B with how do you know um who do you uh codes with? >> You said he went to press first before everybody else. >> He went to press not before everyone else print was already in the 14th century. He went to press and start sending the copies to everywhere he could. Now it's it's an incredible walk what he did. I mean unbelievable. But basically he wanted to make sure that every pet midash and every dian >> has it and when you have it >> you're going to use it especially when it's so accessible [clears throat] you mentioned about how how did they decide according to the talks about the buck what about ah with Yeshua said. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, no. I'm saying there is a heavenly voice and also themselves at the end said even though were smaller. So they said because you are there were mothers. Okay. Everyone is trying to figure out the question but when you have so many answers you understand that what that the question is probably little stronger than the answer. Now you can say that in that specific case you don't in other cases you can I mean I'm not that bothered with the question I'm so I'm more bothered with the main question which is who told you okay especially when you say is a codes with someone you start following him you start neglecting the others okay you know what because we don't have too much time I'll give you a trivia Um, hey, I'll be nice. [laughter] Give me one Tana that his opinions are recorded. His name is not recorded and he was really punished. >> Mayor, that was easy. Very good. Dr. Rabime Rab um okay I'll tell you the story is very interesting uh it is it's terrible story but it is interesting at the beginning when a bin when the head of the Benin all the head of the yeshiva will come into the yeshiva everyone will what stand up who was the head of the Sanhedrin He decided he says pasnished I'm the head of the Sanhedrin when I go into the beta everyone stands when Rabio mayor and I think it was rai >> yosi >> I think it's raiosi they come to the bet midash and they are not the head of the sanedan they are theim everyone stands so no one knows how to differentiate between what >> the head of the so you know what when I come in I'm going to institute that everyone will stand up and until I sit no one sit and when come you know you you stand a bit you know it's like you know like a little bit and then you you can sit okay so the next morning comes in everyone stand up blah blah blah okay and then comes in and they used to what to everyone and they see that people don't exactly stand up for them. So they ask themselves like what's going on here? So that they heard that that's what Raan did. So I say okay. So they conspired against him and they said we're going to ask him a question that we know he doesn't know. Do you know students like that? We're going to embarrass him and uh and then we will show him everyone that he's not such a scholar. which by the way reflects on the other stories that we know between andua. So one of the talidim I think it was he heard that conspiracy and he says this is not nice. So he went to and he told him you know what let's learn together sed I think it was or something like that. So they learned together all night. In the morning comes to the bet midrash. Everyone stands. Ra and Rabiosi comes in. No one stands or they stand partially raises his hand and he says um I want to ask you a question. I want to ask you a question. Yeah. What's the question? How do you do something that has something to do with obviously with thinking that Raangel >> doesn't know it answered him and then he told him get out of my bet midash you are not [clears throat] allowed to come in so because you wanted to embarrass me I knew about the conspiracy so get out so they are out and they still continue to learn the problem is that there are many questions in the bet midash that he cannot answer. So what do they do? They take the questions, they write it, they throw it through the window. Rabime and Rabiosi look at the question and throw the answers back. This is crazy story. It's in there's a lot to to obviously to analyze there. However, they come to Abangam says no, we need to bring them in. So says, "I'm going to bring them in, but I'm going to put them on probation and also give them some restrictions. I'm not going to mention Rabi Male's name in the Mishna. Therefore, most of the times that we have a Mishna without a name, >> it's Rabime. And with Rabiosi, I don't I don't remember exactly. I don't want to say what was the punishment to him but Rabime's name is basically omitted because of what he did to now I don't know why I'm telling you that story because it's definitely does not uh elevate your perception on but I think it makes it very real. I'm talking about not only politics, not personal politics, not only that. I'm not saying not at all, but I'm saying it was more about the of the path that the Jews need to choose after the destruction of the beta mikdash and how to structure the society, how to structure the religious institutions, what to do with makotangel tried to mitigate the makot and to basically that's why he if you remember told who was much older than him, you come to me in yonipur that is based on your calendar. This was a young rabbi and but he was the head of the Sanhedrin because of what? Of his lineage. He says to Yeshua was the Talmid of whom Benzakai the scholar you come to me. So you understand that there was some kind of tension of how I'm going to dictate for all and also in that time not exactly at that time but around that time you have different sects in Israel you have obviously the pushim you have theim you have the bossim you have theim okay so obviously you needed to create some kind of of of authority so again it's not to justify but it's also not just to criticize without knowing the the history. Okay, I think I learned one lesson. Next week, I'm not going to answer any questions. I think we will just follow the going to do unless you have want the other part. But, uh, you know, we need to to go back to our sources. Please keep on to your pages somehow. Thank you so much. We got new ones, but uh keep them.