Forming Halachic Fundementals and Religious Tolerance (part 3) by Rabbi Shai Finkelstein

so K 17th century in Prague and he he was in a moment of uh of transformation historically he was in a moment of transformation because of many many reasons um and one of them was um changes in the general society as well not only the Jewish Society but the general society as well um and here has some interesting takes uh sometimes he argue with the Rama R Moshe is who was in the 16th century in po and we know for example I just gave a class in few shab ago talking about the fact of um how did he deal with different minhagim know we have every Community has different minim and he was uh he was worried that M pin are not authentic and M ashkenas from Germany are much more authentic obviously they are different yis are y right so um so uh it was was uh it was something that the pushed and even against the Rama um also don't forget it was also the time of sh um that obviously affect the Jewish Jewish history but definitely and the way you look at cabala and way you look at a different that just come without any uh without any reasons behind so was in a very interesting and important historical Junction for the Jewish people so he says the following the essence of what I said it was a long CH so what does that mean and what is he really talking about he basically wants to say that um mentioning the name of their God or God is not saying sh so even to say yeshu or Jesus it's not to say and why not the says because basically even when they say Jesus they really mean to say what God and God is the universal God is our God as well they are wrong in trying to attribute some Godly attributes to Jesus but really if you ask a an average Christian they think it's the same and not because they think that just like their God is it's like almost like our God in terms of what of in terms of belief and obviously the is already is based on what on What R says in thear that what that which means they just do it as part of a ritual but they don't really really know what's going on um B look we know and I think I I mentioned it once that uh I know from the Middle Ages I mean the Middle Ages not that I live there from for my studies is uh is that um is basically that um peasants they didn't know a thing they went to church the priest told them that how terrible they are so they need to what to pay the way or something like that or to do a little confession and then that's it they moved on they didn't know too much about the Theology of their religion they know that who need who do they need to hate who killed their Messiah and then move on so there's not it was not that that difficult and by the way even among Jews even though most Jews knew how to read and right uh many Jews didn't know too much of the complications and the complexity of Al are definitely not in sparad in ashas maybe they were a little bit more involved in sparad we see it from from the way that theak is you have a chief Rabbi in he writes the CH very short very concise not too many reasons and move on when you see it's little it's little different so basically the says in the 17th century even if they say their the name of their God or even if they take sh in the name of their God which according to thear it was ass it was prohibited so it's mut it's not it's not a and he continues on and he says who who is his mother no Noy Mary okay um so basically he was criticized he wrote Jesus in one of his chot about like about Jesus and he was criticized by probably someone that thought that knows more than him and he says to him how can you write the name it's a Shar he says it's not Shar anymore and we are in the 17th century and we are doing business with them and they mention their name of God like what we mention we mention the name of God no one here is trying to say what now we mentioned already if you remember that in the 12th century in France also dealt with that issue and he came up with the idea that what that he says the same thing that it's not considered as what what that's one and B he said it's may be which means if he knows that you cannot accept him taking isua he would lie to you he will deceive you he will steal from you knowing that what that there is no way in the world that you can get your money back so therefore so part of it was survival just Jewish survival Financial survival and the other one was okay let's empty the meaning of aod Zar from mentioning their names and from now on even when they say Jesus this is not any AAR it's basically they mean to speak about God question sure we do not say when we talk about has we don't say we never say that besides when we that's true but the only thing is that uh many people say if you're religious you will say elim but some people who don't know to say elim they will say with a hey okay or when you talk to people who are traditional okay you you went to the marketplace you know what how they talk and it's not again it's it's only in terms of K power and also the obviously does not have any a in it so before we see um Dr haral uh article which is really interesting he talks a lot about the Mei that we mentioned before you remember the Mei the end of the 13 Century inan that he was the one to create this category of what which means that restricted with the laws of religion which means all the perception the negative perception that we had on them which included for example not to allow them to babysit our kids not to give them an animal not to do partnership with them not to do business with them that's all gone according to the okay by the way just as a real not maybe as a teaser um what is that November 12th around December 15 of mas my sh I'll give probably two or three classes we'll see uh about n nle the N okay the sources for not learning Torah or not to be with your wife the mik was closed and uh gifts on that night were a little bit of a problem so I'll share with whoever can come that's will be Shabbat not here unless none of you will be there so I can give it to you too but uh but basically it's it's really interesting to see how things came about and also when it started probably the first one who start really writing on it even though it was sensorized later on was um and I'm not going to give you now the shoe obviously soat is isine in the 15th century who was the posk of um of the ashkenazic jury and he was asked a very interesting question can someone give a gift to his non-jewish partner on that NL KN which is the eighth day after the celebration which is New Year's and what's the date ah be careful de1 be careful be careful okay what do I mean you don't need to be careful but there is difference between the Catholics and the the Russian grp for them is the sixth of January now anyone here knows why January okay there are different calendars and they added 10 days okay the Russian the the Russian Catholic they kept at least at least according to their claim they kept the calendar correct and they didn't add 10 days and therefore their new year is January 6 and the Catholics it's you need to come for Shabbat uh and the Catholics are for them is January 1st the question is do you keep y right or not you know do you keep January 1st and January 6 or you keep only one of them so this is a this is a very interesting uh interesting question but you see that Jews already in the 15th century asked asked them the T about that and it's obviously why because they expected it they expected it now why is that allowed or not allowed okay so that's a different question okay which country did live in was in if I'm not mistaken it was in Poland yeah wear so there is an effect about because you will see in the that you used to um that you used to D with in now I'm sure you D with so it's little different but it says they recite G when December 4th or December 5th what does that mean like you do your based on your convenience what does that mean so it depends on how you how you calculate this this calendar and what the G says so not for I know you look like maybe you want an answer but you're not going to get it from me today so let's go okay Dr halto so he has an interesting article the what I don't know yet I need to see I'm starting a new series this Shabbat um about something that uh not in our sh just about you know talking in sh the source for that minhag and how rabbis try to prevent it so that's what I'm going to do this Shabbat for like three weeks I think and then uh yeah no no no what I do is a series of classes every Shabbat okay I'm not advertising the Sho now let's go back to our Sho okay good luck religious tolerance in the meis teaching has been the subject of scholarly examination but the Nexus between his Hal position and his General world view and it's so has never been adequately clarified meaning everyone understood the that the is making a if until the r and and many others but especially R they dealt with the issues but how did they solve the issues locally which means yes you can do a Shu why because if not you're going to lose your money you are allowed to uh be partner with them why because they really don't mean when they say Jesus they don't really mean to say that that's God but didn't change the perception on Christians the Mei said that the big chunk of all those prohibitions that were based on perception of paganism that's gone that's what he says so even I remember I told you last week that even if a Jewish woman is in prison in jail by the king the prince or whatever our assumption that she was not touched why that's the law there is a law and by the way that's obviously a change in the 13th century uh that um even Kings I mean again it was not um obviously you can for bribe you can get your uh your judgment and judgment was not fair for all but there was a law of the state or the law of the country so then he says so his mission is to try to what not only to talk about what thei said but also to try to what to connect or to link the me's ruling to his world view so then he says the following um scholarly consideration began with a detailed analysis by Jacob Katz who viewed the meis as adopting a unique comprehensive position based on a fundamental theological concept the meir's predecessors had had proposed various solutions to bridge the gulf between widespread medieval ashkanazi practice and the halic limitations on contact with Gentiles however none of them took a position that distinguish fundamentally between Idol and Christianity if such a distinction appeared at all in halic literature it was limited in its use to particular times and places and it provided no basis for a definitive and generalized permissive ruling the meis was the first to draw this fundamental distinction and the permissive ruling he proposed was according ly definitive and independent it followed neither post facto from the community's practice nor did it depend on other permissive rulings finally it extended beyond the permissive ruling issued by theic authorities who preceded him now so Yakov KZ I don't know if I highly recommend to read many of his articles he's a very smart so where is he from um know from the universities here and reading but I don't know but yeah but I'm not sure if he was born and raising I don't know so basically he says that the distinction that you can see thei is by the way okay I need to give little introduction the introduction is the introduction is is that in when you are when you deal with a question okay so you can deal with the question which means to try to deal with the issue at hand or you can look at that issue as what as a principle in something much larger and if and then to address that little question you might need to what to change the entire thing so for example you know what I'll give you an example [Music] um okay I'll give you an example during covid okay one of the questions that most most Rabbi were asked was Rabbi can I fulfill my obligation of a minion through Zoom okay now I can deal with a question through what lenses lenses I can deal with a question by saying look there is a plague there is a Maga and I need to look at sources of magot in the past and to see what was the ruling and then to try to understand okay what can I say specifically in this case of the Maga okay so if I can find that theud and theam S said that obviously there was no Zoom but that I can DAV in my room through see through the window a minion and I can hear them so that will be considered yes so I can derive my conclusion to zoom during Co can they hear you all right and they can hear let's say that they can whatever let I'm just I'm talking about the methods not about the so the first method is just to look at it and to say okay plague plague m m that's what I do or I can look at this question as what is zoom nothing to do with what with Maga is considered as what as me being there obviously it deres from from the issue at hand but then if my answer is yes I'm not saying that it's yes was no but if the answer is yes then it has nothing to do with the Maga it can be what Rabbi I need to be on an airplane okay and I need to say kadish and I just need to be on that flight and I know there is a minion at that time and even the same time zone so I'm not going to make it complicated okay can say can I say kadish on Zoom okay so there nothing to do with the Maga you understand the difference I can say I'm using an external source of leniency the time of M you know obviously we need to be more lenient but if I determine that Zoom is mut not only because it's Maga but rather because it's what let's say I determine that Zoom is what is like me mamash being there so then I don't need AA so there are two different ways to do it so ra in this analogy basically chose what to look at that only as a Maga which means there is an external leniency Financial stability maybe they don't really mean that that's God but if that will change Z according to thei he says no no no I'm changing the entire um background here the surrounding this is not the same people which means everything that the tal talks about in from BET to and little bit later basically does not apply anymore not sorry never existed on the people that we are talking about today so that's a major difference now if I'm orb everyone knows Professor orach took issue with Jacob cat's position contending that the me's distinction between idolist religions and Christianity could already be found in the writings of hise of the of his pre predecessors in his view the is merely coined a new term for non idolist religions Nations restricted by the ways of religion so it's not so much about the content but rather about the what the definition similarly contended or the thei permitted nothing more than his predecessors and that was the true measure of is ruling in as much as no halaki consequences flowed from the's new formula no substantive change can be said to have taken place by reason of his position on religious tolerance responding to or's critics Jake Kats and Gerald Bilstein showed that the's unique formula indeed extended the permissive rulings range Beyond of that of his predecessors ruling and its wider scope was not confined to the Practical and apologetic need needs of the community okay so basically claimed that cats you didn't do any you basically I'm looking at the bottom line how many things are now allowed for me to do with Gentiles before you and after you and the answer is it's the same so you didn't do anyim you just coined it in a nicer way okay my purpose not mine Hal bral's purpose my purpose my purpose is to analyze all of them okay that's going to be your purpose as well my purpose is to present sources not yet analyzed in the lit in the literature and that support Jacob cat's position which means the Mei has a unique and distinct way to solve these issues uh most of the study will be devoted to clarifying the term Nation restricted by the ways of religion in the broad and systematic context of the meis position and to exp explicating the meis concept of historical progress which distinguishes between ancient nations of those and those of of his time okay so now he's saying so everyone understand what he tries what he's trying to do right he's trying to support J Kat's position that thei is unique and a new phenomena especially when you compare him to his predecessors and also that he is not dealing with those issues but rather change the entire concept okay position can be analyzed delineated meeting three categories that touch on theak relationship of two Gentiles two Gentiles the first category encompasses prohibitions on Commerce with gentils that flow from the concern that such commercial contacts promote and indirectly facilitate adulterous ritual or cause Jews to benefit from adulterous ritual or it's Aus apparatus thank you the prohibition on the trading with a gentile on his Festival day this to list he proceed to thank his gods for profit gain through the transaction provided a paradigm for prohibitions designed to distance Jews from any even indirect contact with adulterous ritual with respect to the Gentiles of his day the meiris relaxed the prohibition on trading with Gentile on his Festival day the prohibition on trading with the Gentile when he when a portion of the Prophet is taxed for ritual Necessities the prohibition on selling ritual Necessities such as incense orank frankincense to a gentle the prohibition on letting a house to a gentle letting house to a gentile lest he bring into a dous worship the prohibition on on deriving benefit from ordinary gentle wine Stam which was decreed out of concern about wine that had definitely definently sorry where is it I can't see anything had definitely been meant for Libations like V and the prohibitions of expensively greeting a GLE and entering a gentile's house to greet him on his Festival the meis permitted these six activities in his day and apply the prohibitions only to the ancient ous Nations so six of those things are according to okay the second area are you allow to just drink no no no no no no no not to drink one thirsty oh and you can the second area to be considered in Hal's attitude towards to the gent's judicial Jal site rights and obligations this category focuses on a legal and personal standing of the Gentile not on indirect contact with ritual a prime example is the gle's liability to fully compensate a Jew for damage caused by his animal to a Jew's property in contrast to the Jews exemption from any corresponding liability to the gentle when the Jews animal cause damage yeah because it says in the Torah and not theenda yeah H it is recorded so what I can't do anything about it oh so the question is do we have Shalom so now we are not talking about Shalom just and to the of a Jewish ax okay who cause a damage to a gentile does not need to pay a non-jewish ax an ax that belongs to a non-jew who damage a Jew he needs to pay full uh full um full damages and there is no distinction between what Tam v m yes but are there like naal laws which would super you're talking about here we just talking about from from the Jewish perspective yes thei great question the question is how his contemporaries view thei so the question is who are they that's the first question second question is the Mei was discovered only around 100 and plus years ago his manuscript was gone we didn't even know he existed so there was a a guy who thought that he's buying uh a manuscript that belonged to someone else I forgot who and then he goes to this EIC or whatever it is and he find all these manuscripts and he looks at that and he looks at that and says this is not the guy I was looking for but I did find the treasure here and he found the and this wrote perim on almost the entire town on and some other perim um the nice part is that uh first he's from Southern France what we call today provance but but then it was pinan B he accumulated a lot a lot of the rishonim that were before him so we have knowledge now about more more people and the third one that he he was somewhat influenced by the rambam which gives us another hint to the influence of the rambam on Southern France in around the late 13th century uh but but it created a huge problem why because for example the BET who lived in the 16 Century who composed the he did not know about the so the question is and this is always when we find more manuscripts is what do we do now if we find something let's say in this that contradicts the that we agreed upon from the 16th century and and move and forward what do you do with them would you say look if he would know that that what thei said he will change his mind or you say whatever information he had in front of him that's what you have so this is a this is a big question in what do you do with them um so in terms of our contemporaries um I think there was one in Italy rabish sharani which was also in the late 13th century but I don't know even if they knew each other there were some provant uh but none of [Music] them I think as famous as as the now and probably some of them would just lost their uh just lost their manuscripts and lost their knowledge okay so the meis treated the Gentiles of his day no differently from Jews with respect to obligations and rights in the following matters company ation for property damage the prohibition on robbery the obligation to return Lost Property the obligation to rescue from home granting yeah no I just something came up on my screen thank you and and I was saved by not being able to say this word and the obligation to help in loading a a beast of burden the prohibition on excessive profit the imposition of equal punishment for killing a gentile the prohibition on delaying payment to a a hired worker the violation of the Shabbat to save a human life the authorization to sell armance to a gentile and the authorization to stable an animal in the Gentiles in according to the the Discrimination that pervades the with respect to these rights applies only to the ancient Nations which are not restricted by the religious practices in the me view contemporary Gentiles are fully equal to Jews in this respects this is Revolution think about it according to the talmud which by the way that was also one of the reasons okay you know what little history we need we need a little history because without it it will be very hard and difficult to understand it what we are saying now it's like n you want to tell me the Jews thought like that and the answer is not only that we thought like that we codified it in if you find an a that belong to a non-jew you don't need to return it back if you want to be a but you don't need to your ax damage a njw profit property you are exempt he damaged You full price if you see a non-jew in danger and it's chabbat you tell him shabbat shalom and you move on okay you see him in a pit you see me no doesn't matter so the question is so basically it basically make discrimination M much discrimination now don't no don't forget you didn't hear their laws right we know only our side priest you have the other side the other side didn't really care so much about Jewish life okay and many times they were calling to kill us and their perception on us was also not that flattering okay so we are talking about two societies that has tremendous animosity a lot of um you know uh what do you call it the preconceived ideas or Notions and each one of us look at each other and we think we see the devil okay so those things definitely happened but the in the 14th century or late 13 basically says now from now on so it's not only the issue it's about how do I view a gentile and I view him he's like a Jew Now does not mean I can marry him but in terms of damages on all what we will call cultural and societal obligations we are the same why because they are they are restricted in the in the practices of of of religion now what does that mean also it meant that what that when the rabbi said whatever they said that you don't need to give him the Lost object and they basically not God forbid God for they were like subhuman but the idea is that their religion paganism did not make them what better people or abide people who abide the lawal moral people ethical people the thing is that after they accepted upon themselves to what to restrict themselves with their religion and to be moral and to be ethical and to have some kind of a Judicial System therefore they become what equal in rights to Jews and there is really no discrimination by the way part of the idea and here in Israel obviously is very different but in that the doctor you know drive on Shabbat to the hospital and most of his patients are what notw are not Jews how can he do that you know you shabbat for a Jew since when foru part of the issue I'm not saying all of it but the is one of the ones that we rely on to say it's not and look this is not and this is need to be very clear many rabbis will tell you today a Jew can Jewish physician can do it why because of what AA if he will not do it a non-jewish doctor will not do it and what create a chaos in society we cannot tolerate that something the does not mention AA he does not mentioned an external Source he is talking internally something changeed about that everybody is created in the image of God that's wonderful but you can lose it no but I'm saying like a human being like to save somebody to save a person who's sick a Jew or non-jew so you're saying the reason that he's giving but isn't there also like because he's created in the image of God or something like that we all are oh yeah true but what does it mean I don't know so in in the eyes of pre and pre pre they said they they have but they might say that paganism basically destroy the took away theim because yes you you can destroy theim that was given to you can yeah yes so what about the idea of giving your organs because I read that um who passed away donated six of his organs to six different people so we take organs when we need them but we're not allow to give so I will totally disagree with the not allowed this is not the subject of the class so I'm not going to elaborate on it but uh in today's world organ donations became even Al much more accepted and uh and also monitored so it depends here in Israel there is definitely less issues and complications than giving it in okay so going back to our issue thei is totally changing the all the that basically viewed non-jews as pagans who are not restricted in the laws of of religion and therefore they do not deserve to be treated like any other Jews answer now no that's gone they are going to be exactly like you was they got already that's their religion that's their framework right and they lost it meaning they lost it never developed the right right and that was that's I think part of what he says in his mind not our religion they don't become Jews they need to what keep the and what are the think about it those are the fundamentals of our 613 believing in one God judgment no adultery no adultery okay no AAR no every know to have judges in the in the cities just have an ethical moral Society Christianity might have taken the place of that by throwing out the other part of it makes it especially in the beginning Judaism other words they see they see them as Godus no there a trinity there no they don't seem as God Father the Son the many of the mitvah they have to keep Shabbat like we keep it oh no they can keep Shabbat the thing is that they I thought you said something else I'm just going to says historically there was the possibility that Ben Noah would have been the universal religion that was actually based on the same M that that the Judaism was was based on when they but when they did it they threw out a lot of the the things of Judaism sure that that otherwise that's the Dilemma but we can we should we should give them today more possibility to know their know and we continue to be Jews otherwise what we're going to keep oh no no we we don't we want to incourage them to keep for sure that in the 14th century what the says I'm not sure that all the non-jews kept they were devoted deved no no what I'm saying is but what I'm saying is that they may says that even though they still don't keep all but because they raised their level to at least keep some of it which is their God they believe basically in our God Jesus that's what you have to say straight they see him not as a prophet they see him as God not all of them that's that's what the rabbi said says not me that's what they it was said in the 14th century that they don't really even when they say Jesus they don't believe that he's God they really mean to say the god of the universe so that's what they said okay yes why hasn't the stringency on and turning on fire okay very good change and secondly why all the restrictions on the wine and why nons can't serve it okay so the question is very clear now if you tell me that you they are being treated like Jews in terms of Damages and everything so treat them like Jews with opening a wine not not marrying them so that's exactly the third category so the third category encompasses measures to distance Jews from Gentiles tied to a b to the ban of intermarriage an example is the prohibition on drinking ordinary Gentile wine in this area the meis left all the prohibitions in place applying them to the Gentiles of his day as well why I know it sounds very arrogant but I think it sounds very natural every group like to keep their group distinct and different than the others together and basically there is also an understanding they might be wonderful people they might be maybe even better than some Jews that we know however we are Jews and they are not and that's fine this is where we are unlike any other religions we don't try to convince them to be Jews we try to convince them to be ethical and moral and the only way to guarantee it is by them keeping even in the time of mashia not everyone will be a Jew that will be nightmare right so we don't want it we don't need it we want the world to be a full Enos Humanity which is comprised by different people you have the Jews that will be recognized as the nation of God and the others can definitely be inspired and continue to be part of this leading group of bringing Humanity back to gedan there's no problem with it so basically the Miri says I cannot allow intermarriage and and why is that because this is still prohibited and why is that still prohibited because you are a Jew and you are not you want to become a Jew okay there is a way to do it there is conversion uh but I cannot even though I'm going to treat them inish meaning the judicial approach towards them is they are equal to me but they are not we are not equal in terms of what we call it the spiritual we are only in terms of the not the and not the and not the they can still eat pork and they can still eat and it does not take away from their why because they were never commanded not to do it so they have no problems to eat on yum kipur that falls on Shabbat and to eat Kaz and they can still keep their morality and ethics if a Jew eat on y kipo okay so it's not about his ethical Behavior but it's about his religious Behavior okay so these three categories are not necessarily tied to one another a fundamental question arises concerning the linkage between the two areas I.E ritual related prohibitions on Contex and the delineation of judicial obligation and rights does the Discrimination that dominates with respect to the rights of Gentile flow from their being idolist implying that a different rule governs Gentiles who observe the seven no no no Commandments and that where a group of Gentiles found that does not practice adultery its status in both areas would change simultaneously an alternative is that the denial of gentle rights follows directly for from the fact that they are Gentiles rather than idolist in the in if the letter the inapplicability of the first area of concern to a group of lus gentles has no effect whatsoever on the second area in other words is the Discrimination between monotheist and pagans or between Jews and Gentiles this is a well defined question when I look at the talmud and they did that's we are going to be ually honest here okay in the time of the TAMU there is a discrimination between Jews and non-jews by the way according to history there was always discrimination between Jews and non-jews but not necessarily from what from our end okay so that was known that's a b his question and this this is a really interesting analysis is the Discrimination based on iders versus so when you stop being an idol you move immediately to to no discrimination or that there is an inherit discrimination between Jews and Gentiles and I don't care you are an ID you are not an you keep you keep I don't really care you were born a gentile Mal but there is a discrimination that's the main question so oh come you're allow I believe that you're allowed to into a mosque but not into a church because a mosque it's they say they they have one God and that that that the church they they practice a VOD Zara so you're saying they don't practice a VOD Zara but one of the reasons given is that if you go into a church it is a vodar so some people say it's a vodar and you shouldn't go especially when there is a mess or like there is pre or whatever it is and some people say that she like a museum okay so that's what I me if you look at as a museum so some people say it's okay to go there while there is no service okay um the question no go ahead please well does wouldn't that same thing apply to a mosque it's okay to go there while there's no Serv in a mask mask yeah so it's easier because there are no images there are no images the only thing is to get out of the Mask [Music] at least they believe in the trity so so it depends what kind of church if the church is a real Museum or it's not so you have different rabis giving different answers as you know the question focuses on whether the line in distinguishing Jew from Gentile rests upon the premise of an ontological gap between Jews and Gentiles or upon the difference between the monist way of life and the ID alterist clarifying the source of this discriminatory line with respect to rights has Prof found implications for who Bears the inequality Gentiles generally or only Idols similarly there is a significant moral difference between how the Discrimination is Justified under each of the two possibilities this is not the place for a comprehensive consideration of the question based on a tudis but delineating these two categories of the's attitude toward Gentiles is important for an understanding of the's position so that's what we're going to do with next week to try to understand the root of this discrimination which is is that based on manist way of life versus ulter or gentle versus a Jew and this is the main question for next week [Music]