Fighting for the Mesorah: Commemorating the Yahrzeit of Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik by Rabbi Ari Kahn

now but it happens to be that tonight is the yard site of Rabbi salav which is one of the reasons and then I had to also obviously include him in the shear so the the learning will do will be I also have a friend who has yite for his father and his name is mosha Rafael and uh he's in a hotel and he suddenly realized the hotel is not letting him light a yide candle so he contacted me not that long ago and asked me could we uh light a yide candles I said sure and I said you know what I'm also saying AAR so we'll also have your father in uh in mind okay so let us begin right now some of us have already counted the third day of the OM some of you are still on the second day of the Omare it's also interesting when exactly Rabbi salvic passed away there are uh various pieces of information out there different places they don't all say the same thing from what I recall and what I think is the fact as I think he I think he passed away on a Thursday evening just like it is right now at least here in Israel it's a Thursday evening which was already dark so it was already the next day in terms of the he in terms of the Hebrew day and let me just share with you here is a picture of uh the tombstone which it sayson ran Isel so that's quite a title already the rabbi of all of Israel yses based on this it says in a bunch of places that he must have passed away on I believe it was April 9th but I think it's more likely it was it was still the previous day in terms of the gorian calendar I think it was April 8th still therefore I wrote share to commemorate the earth side of if that's what they decided to ride in the tombstone so why would I write some anything else and uh let's begin the mishna inot and I'll add one thing about this before we uh proceed I I learned this Mission I learned this gar with ra Sal so one of the years I was in this she he was learning he was teaching or I believe I may have the the the test that he gave us at the end of the semester for anybody wants to try to take the test to see if you'll if you would pass this test I believe I have that someplace um also when I got engaged my in-laws who were very nice Jews but uh not not learned and they had a friend who had SM and he said oh he's a Yesa student he's whatever goes I'll give him a fa which means he'll give me a test so he gets himself invited over for lunch on shopus I was there for shopas so first question is what are you learning my answer is Manos and that was it that was the end of the test he if you're going to go back to the four Sons he was a anal Dayal he had no idea what to ask about uh BOS he uh had a uh a Hail Mary which was stuff about I said no stuff about stuff about is actually stuff about the OM the Su is all about the OM so now the the mishna this is like I'm going to start with the talons of the mishna that there were certain things that were done in a very demonstrative way in order so that's exactly where we're picking up now right is it is it Shabbat yes is it Shabbat yes is it Shabbat yes and nonetheless is this a sickle yes yes yes why all of this pump in circumstance why of all of this exaggeration it says it is because of the okay because okay the first consideration and I'm not interested right now in getting into each and every Argan because there going to be too many of them the Bim s thought the things should be done different now first thing you may ask me then who are the Bim here it's with a me who the Bim so it's a sect that that existed at the towards the end of the second mikash the second temple and further the gar here tells usabat and I'm GNA just say this additionally one of the opinions of the Bim is that they're the ones who believed that at that should always be on a Sunday now before I proceed I just want to say a couple of things really much more as an introduction there are Bim and there were sadim or there were sadim and there were Bim and I think that we have a hard time sometimes distinguishing between the two and maybe maybe we really can't distinguish the other things that you need to know is that the gamarra itself is censored and also suffers from self censorship so you maybe you could say suffers from self-censorship or suffers from censorship but whenever you go into deal with I I'll use the word dissidence or others we always need to be careful what was the original term that was used which means they live in a world where they're idolators they live in a world where they're Christians they live in a worlds where there are non-believers and sometimes they had to be careful either in the gamarra itself or Miss itself or sometimes later on before you know as the manuscripts are being passed on or before something gets published which means anytime you're going to get to again almost no I'll go back anytime you get to any of these terms what you're going to need to do is to take a look and to see if the various manuscripts support the text that we have in our printing printed books and very very often you're going to find that there is Intrigue as I said some censorship some self-censorship sometimes we're being careful sometimes too careful and over here nonetheless it says Bim not every time the Bim or the saduk are referred to will it say one or the other sometimes they'll be a different term completely but as I said that that's enough of an introduction now to understand this in this case it do it you know it did in fact say that we were con concerns about the Bim and then it goes on to tell us something about the Baus and they are they were concerned that should always come out on a Sunday Zak so y Zak is somebody who is towards the end of the second temple and after the second temple presumably this is when it the second temple is still standing and it says that he goes and has a word with them and and he says to them them idiots now some of you can say that's not so nice and no one was willing to engage we'll see one exception in a moment no one is willing to engage so you know you know what this is great again R salv will be in the background of everything that we say today can you imagine somebody who with with limited understanding and limited knowledge and limited background trying to talk to the godor trying to talk Zaki I mean it's it's a complete absurdity and once and Zaki engages they seem to have enough sense to all back down and then it says with the exception of there was one elderly fellow there is not a good word he starts to chirp as it were and he says the following loves Jews and he knew that that that is only one day and therefore mha decreed that should be always on a Sunday so we're always going to get a long weekend in Israel they have a term for this they call it a geser a bridge so this is a long weekend and and this is the bausi position and by the way notice that he that that mosha wanted the Jews to enjoy to have pleasure to have a long weekend to have some more time off now again let's speak in more about a temple oriented uh celebration you're going to be old the regular you're going to come to Jerusalem so so why just come and go ready you're going to go to uh go on vacation you want at least a couple of days now I hope you all realize that there's something completely Preposterous about this not just Preposterous it's completely shocking we generally give the credit to the Bim that or theim that they believed in but they don't believe in t they believe in the written Torah but not the oral Torah if I'm not mistaken what I just now read it says that mosenu loves Jews and therefore mosha decreed excuse me Moshe didn't write sa VRA God wrote sa VRA if if this claim is an accurate claim of what all by Tome held now you see what I just now did I just shifted it from one elderly man who's giving forth an argument versus the position of allim then their position is worse than we ever imagined because it means complete heresy in terms of uh of not not not just the oral Torah this is a rejection of the Divine authorship of the written Torah as well now the first answer of yoken B Zaki responds and I'm not when I'm not going to read the whole thing somebody who interested can read further here so he says he reads the amount of travel it should have taken to get from was 11 days if MOS loved Jew so much did he cause them to delay for 40 years in the desert he goes what are you talking about now and by the way re goes that's your answer to me and and he goes and he doubles down on him and calls him an idiot again and I'm not going to read through the entire text over here I am just telling you is that if this were serious discussion we can have it in a serious way this is not a serious discussion this fellow starting point is is that mosha M made up the Torah and the major point of the Torah is to have vacations and long weekends and go off to Club Med so so please this is just a complete absurdity and you don't answer absurd positions in a serious way which is apparently what R zakai does and I want to stress another thing and we've in the past had a whole sheare on the following point if you look at source number two and then we'll look in Source number three you this is this is where the OM is introduced So it's talking about the holidays first one which is introduced which is strange Shabbat by the way is not land oriented it's all over the world it's all over the place but on Shabbat there will be a cessation of work it's a Shabbat it's a day of rest then the holidays are introduced right new paragraph mes and it says we're right there you're told there's no work on that first day moving a little further on the seventh day there is a station of work by the way that would be a Shabbat because there's no work which is being done it then continues you enter the land which I'm going to give you and and it introduces the OM and here maybe I didn't underline the phrase but it's more than once here the day after the day of rest now the day of rest in this case here's the argument that you could say hold it maybe the maybe the by have a good point maybe it is Shabbat so therefore it's going to start for Shabbat you count 49 days later it'll be Shabbat and therefore what you're talking about will be a Sunday so the argument maybe is a pretty good argument the only problem with this is and I'm skipping ahead a little bit further we're going to get to the seventh month why does that mean that it has to be on a Saturday now just stay with me a second which is what makes it aone and what does it say that what is no way that both the first of the month and the 10th of the month could be a Saturday on top of all that you're going to get to the 15th of the month and it's going to say as well that it's going to tell us again so again you have a sensation of work on that day and notice also all these kinds of days of cessation of work by the way later on we're going to read so it is virtually impossible for the 1 and the 10th and the 15th right and the 21st all of them to be Saturdays which means now you realize that the word shabbaton or Shabbat does not mean exclusively Saturday if it means a sensation of work and right afterwards in S three in chapter 25 we're going to have which is called that's not just on Saturday and again I can go and so on and so forth because essentially the word Shabbat does not mean Saturday it could mean Saturday it means a day of rest it means a day of cessation of Labor so the argument of the bausi which by the way he doesn't even put forth that argument that that's what's so good and again I want to be a little careful again I don't know okay don't be mad at me now I don't know to what extent we should be taking the argument of kazal in a literal sense or perhaps there's a pmic which is taking place over here I mean we know that there's such a thing as a midash and uh we don't read all our midrashim literally so over here as well is this really the absolute position of all the bausum if it is as I said then their case is far worse I didn't even have to make this argument because they don't make the counterargument they don't say hold it it really means Saturday they didn't say that they said no it has to be Saturday for a different reason and that is because mosha loved the Jews and wanted to give us long weekends so I'm just saying there's no serious discussion over here taking place but even if they took the more serious discussion and would insist no in the Torah needs to mean absolutely it has to be Saturday night or Sunday so my counter to that would be well that's just not true in terms of the text because theat again we've used the word Pat many times thatat is a contextual understanding and contextual understanding is obviously dependent on the context and in this particular case we need an operational definition of the word shabbaton and the operational definition of the word shabbaton cannot mean Saturday looking at all the way that's used in chapter 23 so essentially there's no argument there's no discussion to be made so I don't know again that that would have been the more serious discussion one side would say be literal and is a literal translation and the other one say no the Shabbat is a contextual translation and on the context over here shabbaton doesn't mean Shabbat but that's not the argument that the byus he gave the argument that he gave was a far worse argument was that God wanted us to have long weekends and God wanted us to enjoy and and I'm stressing that a little bit because I I think if we start putting together the source is we're going to notice that maybe there is a common denominator that has eluded us and I want to make sure that we get to see it and we understand it in Source number four the same theme is carried through if you understand it and if you see it we're told in rash then Mish tells us originally that originally they would take the testimony from everyone and at some point they stopped and it goes on and tells us by the way the word by I do not believe is in the mishna have to go back and take a look the word by is not in the look at if the court does not know this fellow you send someone else who knows the court knows them and they know this F the witness now meim is much more generic and meim could mean all kinds of things sometimes meim means Christians sometimes meim means Heretics sometimes meim could mean something else but that's what I'm pointing out the Mish here only said the Mish here did not say by now if we go back to the G and it says what were the Bim guilty of which by the way would therefore suggest that maybe the Mish here originally said bausum and that's the text which is there in front of the rabbis when they are considering this tradition so it says that once they tried to bribe someone and it tells us exactly what to say he goes and he travels to and they say what did you see I was out and he gives this really remarkable testimony and they're kind of uh having a hard time believing him and again I'm not reading the whole thing over here and he finally says at the end and you don't believe me that's what I saw and he goes and here's the money they paid me to say this testimony so UMO and he says you know who so then it comes out that it was the here you see again it was he goes I heard a rumor that were looking for people to go and fool the rabbis and I figured better for me to go and then I will reveal their plot rather than someone else goes and maybe gives more believable testimony and uh so on and they told them at the end of the day that uh that they can keep the money it's everything is fine and uh but again I I want to pause over here because it's it's it's interesting what was the background of all of this so the bobly doesn't tell us the background the in Source number five so it tells us the same story why that the the testimony was there in order to create the new moon at the right day in order to assure that would end PES will be the right day and the will start the right day and then will be the right day so if you've ever heard this whole thing about the the witnesses and trying to manipulate so now you realize that that's part of the same story The usami as well does the same thing and it tells us that the the background over here so thei follows the B leaves that out so you just kind of wondering do we have two different dastardly Deeds that the Baus were doing which are unrelated and the answer is no the these are related this is all coming back to the same uh point over here the TOA in Source number seven that's Professor sha liberman who uh explains a little bit of the background and also goes through a little bit of what the gear are if you're interested then you will uh you will take a look in Source number eight there's another TOA that tells us of another thing that the bausum didn't believe in and they also tried to do something in order to mess up to make sure that kazal would not be able to follow their tradition and there again is a commentary from Professor liman on that in Source number nine in uh in Source number 10 the there is yet another thing so over here and the again here actually they're keeping Shabbat and it's an exaggerated way of keeping Shabbat and they go and they hide the love him and then people find out about it but again it's the Bim being active and using their power in order to try to frustrate people from following the the tradition we we also have a another source about Bim where and this isn't Source 11 which talks about that they I'm not again I'm not doing details today that they just had a different way of understanding how the law of Adam Z work so we're finding it's not just about it's not a one Topic thing we saw the first couple sources and we were kind of convinced that maybe that there's a theme over here but no there are other issues as well in Source number 12 which is an ancient source called M here we're told that the bin believed that an individual is allowed to donate the tmid the tmid is a corpin seur and therefore should come from the tour's money and we're told that that actually there was the B were in charge of the B mikash and they made made sure that individuals were giving the donations for the tamid but by the way this also will speak to perhaps an upper class people with money and therefore they want to give them a position we're going to see more about that in a moment but n nonetheless at the very end of this we're told and there and then they created a holiday based upon the time that kazal was actually Victorious and able to reestablish the tradition that they had against the Bim who were running the BET mikdash and again that may need a little bit more explanation in Source 13 we have another source but now we have to pay attention because now we're switching now we're moving from batusin to suim the only thing is is that the conversation is almost the same conversation here the topic is whether well let me first state a fact let's say there's a man who has let's say there's a man who should we use we'll use Yakov and Yakov has a bunch of sons and then he has a granddaughter s right he's a granddaughter as well and let's just say Yakov is alive and ashra passes away and now Sarah will will inherit the stokum said well if Sarah could inherit then Dena should also inherit cu a daughter should also inherit and daughters generally in Jewish law don't inherit so that's exactly what the discussion here that's the same kind of phrase and again I'm not getting into the discussion but it's interesting because that's almost word for word the same formula that we had where we started with the Bim in over here as well there's another example in so why did certain presents go over to the and it says because it's uh Aon had connections that basically mosha likes Aon or loves Aon even and therefore he made sure that the kohanim are going to get certain gifts I'm going to say this again that this kind of argument and notice it this time this Stokey saying this so this is not a question of not accepting tal or even reading Tav in a literal sense this is saying that mosha made up the Torah and mosha therefore played favorites and this is nepotism and therefore mosha gives over to Aon because let's keep the wealth in the family so again this is something which is perhaps not what we had expected in Source 15 we have a mission in y that speaks about it stuki and prusan I'm not going to read anything else about this mishna but later on we're going to see one of the commentaries on this mishna who's going to help us and be interesting okay if we started today with probably the most famous example of the Bim the m shabat i want to now move over to probably the most famous example of the stok him and that is regarding the a of the co we're told in the M that they would make him swear that he'll do everything according to tradition and then he starts to cry and they start to cry who he starts to cry because he was accused of being by making him swear because they may have accused an innocent person of something that they never did why do we have to by the way this very similar to the kak Lama that we had regarding the the OM why do we have to do this in such a demonstrative way over here in kak in order to make sure that the co does not get the incense ready on the outside and then carried in Once Upon a Time he did the way that stum do it again those of us who don't understand what's exactly going on one of the things that Co GLE has to do and and it's not that easy we'll see a source a little bit later on in Source 19 it's going to tell us the dexterity needed to do this was quite quite challenging was one of the hardest things to do essentially you need to carry the pan in one hand the pan of coals and you also need the incense in another hand and it's essentially jug juggling a couple of things at once and it's much easier and more efficient to pour the incense into the coals and therefore you already have incense when you walk inside rather than to juggle everything and go inside keeping everything separate and all the pots and pans separate so but by the way if this if all that this was about was essentially that the Torah has a right way to do it and the right way is a little too difficult so just take the easy way out so that's also really would be quite surprising I'm not saying it's impossible to understand that way it would just be surprising but it says Once Upon a Time he succeeded back in 16 and this brought him incredible Joy his father sees even though it's we're afraid of them way I hope you recognize that it's exactly the speech that reaba gives when he's about to be executed by the Romans he almost says this word for word which is interesting because this is certainly before because this when the second bet still stood that you go in in A Cloud by the way here at least he's explaining a verse and he's explaining the verse again we can argue in terms ofad is thatat or not it's may be of one part of the it's very selective let me put it that way we'll look at the PUK in a moment by the way same words is going to use if I'm ever going to have the opportunity will I be able to keep it now that I had the opportunity I'm not going to do it not so much time went by until he died and he was thrown into the garbage and worms curled out of his nose presumably he did the incense the wrong way so his nose gets punished some say only when he came out he was struck the that an sound was heard an angel came and kicked him Al of in the face and there was a footstep of an AEL which on the one hand ties you up with but on the other hand you know we can't ignore about the agel and serving in a wrong way which ultimately turns into a Bazar I said all of that is uh is interesting in uh in Source 17 we're told and again this is this is actually a little frightening and there's much more to talk about this I'm of ysf loas because it talks about this is also in y and it talks about the amount of the kohanim in the first temple compared to the second temple so essentially this is the source that the second temple Coen him were corrupt so why were they corrupt because they would buy the position and here it tells us marus notice we're talking about the Bim and now we have to wonder if Mar very wealthy woman she buys it she gives money in order becomes the co now the reason why this is much more complicated is because Yeshua B gaml is generally considered to be a very positive character and there's a number of things that he does including starting the school systems and there's something else that he did in the in the beta mikdash which means we're told that somebody from the Baus family buys the Kahuna for yesu B Glam and it just sounds that it happens to be that he's the right guy for the job because he does a nice job with it so again this maybe help us a little bit with understanding the the background of the second with the coim and the Bim I did nonetheless want to note the in where it says so notice and you're G to take the on the fire so there's another over here as well you do this so presumably means in in theim so to say that you know that the sto says I always wanted to do this in a different way it's not such a simple argument that he was telling you shot in the and t comes and and twists it about I I I think that're quite the opposite I think you read the larger context over here and it really would seem to be that the the way that theum should be understood is uh is as kazal understanded and that you do the aod inside so we already saw 19 we already saw that it's difficult the one of the only reasons ver 20 interest me it's a little [Music] later and now you see here's a perfect example that at least the gar that I accessed online had had that movement from writing toi to writing a Min and who knows what other possibilities and that's what I said in the very beginning is that whenever we talk about distance about dissidence we need to be careful because there was some censorship which was uh taking place okay so all of this was background and now we can take a look and we'll start and we're going to look at the rhom and after we read the rhom then we'll get back to R salvic the rambam deals with stokum in a bunch of places we're not going to do all of them and we're certainly not going to do all of them in depth in Hil CH the rambam in passing here is speaking about what is it a person who's actually a heretic and he writes somebody who denies here someone denies Divine authorship a so over here is what we I think we actually saw both the saduki and the bausi say along the way but that's not the way the rahan quotes it the rahan quotes the next phrase that what is and he's about to tell us now and the person who contradicts those who teach Torah sh so it's very interesting because the rambam over here could have put K in the previous line and that would have been fallen in line with again the more radical positions that we had seen and again I don't know if that's representative of old SIM orim or was just that Zak that was m and so on but the RAM actually is comparing them to somebody who accepts but rejects this phrase used it in a really in in a very famous and often quoted place where he felt it's not enough even to follow kazal one has to love kazal one has to be part of the m one has to Revere the B which I think is a term he would have used over here to say that kazal didn't know what they were talking about and to give all kinds of new fangled inter rations to ancient sources that go against the M the Raam felt sorry the ra felt was and ra Sal echoed this and thought that was kir and therefore and he used this he used this in modern times in order to confront certain positions that were being articulated but again he took this right here which he sees as being actually the behavior of saduk andus and when he mentions in source 22 somebody puts on the in the wrong way which would be much more that would be very literal that's the way that Sim do it in he's referring to how drunk you need to be in order to not be able to go into the mikdash and at the end he says something he brings it he goes if you if you know something and you're clear enough to say like really basic things that even a saduki would know then you're allowed to go inside so it's interesting using the knowledge of stuki to be able to know know really basic things that's enough to be able to go in so just really fascinating that he brings in theuk over here unsurprisingly in which is really where we sort theim again we moved away from the V and during the S Temple Times there there arose they like jumped out they appeared the this minus now minus would be or Min it would be heresy now this is absolutely fascinating may they immediately disappear now why is that so fascinating well I hope you all understand what's saduk are doing in the rambam's hometown there are not sadim there there's someone else there which we're going to get to in a second but there's no sadim there so the rambam over here is clear and again in the the last couple of places as well when he was talking about this saduk especially about the filin I have no knowledge again that my lack of knowledge doesn't mean that much I have no knowledge of the still putting on the Fillin the way that the Rah described in Source 22 I do know another group that that does it that way and that's the Karim and the ram seems to be conflating the Karim and sadim as if they are exactly the same so over here when he says in the second temple this new group emerged may they the may they be immediately removed so again the r is pretty consistent by saying yeah they don't believe in but apparently believe in and he goes on to tell that since they were afraid they would make him swear all the things that we saw in the in the gamar before we'll skip 20 5 it it's it's a little frightening this Source because it talks about y who was a CO for many many years and at the end he becomes it stooki now we don't understand that Temptation because I think that we tend to look at stokum as being very foolish and being very uh literal and very lacking tradition how in the world can have a man who's a coin G for all those years and suddenly become it stooki which means that itself is disturbing and now we're going to get to the main the main sources in the mission the beginning of vote we're told about antig right away antigonos is a name that should get our attention for the very simple reason that antigonus sounds like Antony it's so it sounds very much like a Greek name we're dealing with with the Greek period the end of the Greek period we're told an don't serve God like a servant who is going to work to get a prize reward shalom not a condition to receive reward have the fear of Heaven upon you in and here we have Source 27 it tells us this tradition so it's an interesting addition here that you'll get twice the reward in the world to come he had two students who taught their students and further students moving forward they went and they analyzed his words could it be a man who's going to work all day and not be paid at the end of the day right against the Torah if our sages believed that there really was a world to come and there really was there would be people the dead will come back and live again they never could have said such a thing T and they went and separated from the Torah and they became two groups and they served with things which were quite expensive which again points towards an aristocratic class that the perian they treat themselves with very uh with a great deal of pain in this world and the next world there's nothing and therefore there the saduk and the Bim said well we may as well enjoy this world cuz another world now I of course Wonder to what I say of course Wonder to what extent this is a latent position which is based upon Greek philosophy eat drink and be married for tomorrow you may die there's no other world there's only over here remember some of the sources before you know MOS Lov the Jews and therefore wanted us to have a longer weekend and wanted us to be M an and especially this coming as students of antigonus meaning to what extent were these people raised during that Greek period and therefore influenced by this and maybe never you know we know there were mavim so maybe these are some of those mavim who never completely re-entered the society there's a second tradition of this and another of version we're going to leave that if you need to look at it later you will now we have the rambam and also in 29 and 30 we have two versions of the rambam's parish we'll uh we'll start in 29 there's no reward or punishment there's no hope for the future because they really understand them and it's also makes the r makes sound like there's really one group it's interesting when he spoke about in he said oh the time in the second temple there was a group and he only calls him Sim T it's funny because the ram is being again he's writing in Arabic so I can't tell you for sure but if if this a correct translation he's being cute because they called the ones who stayed the perian but he's calling these the ones who were par so as I said it's being at least a little cute they could not really be successful they told people what they really believed it would cause the people gathering around them to leave them rather they choose some they chose something which would be an easier cell because if they would say what they really believe they would have been killed now this that's one version of it I just want to read at the second one it says Tor the ramam is claiming and we can easily support support this the rah's claiming is that the did not believe in the written Torah either and each one made believe that they believe in the written Torah but they disagree with the tradition and they claim that the oral Torah is not right that way essentially they got rid of all the as much as they could of the functioning Torah I'm gonna say it again the ram is fascinating because the rambam essentially really is again he didn't make the historical link that I'm suggesting he did not tie them in directly with the MV him with the hellenized Jews but he is claiming that saduk and vus themselves don't believe in the written Torah or the oral Torah you can't convince a bunch of Jews good believing simple Jews that the or that the in Torah is not correct but you can maybe convince them that some of the oral Traditions have been passed on incorrectly right I have many examples I can give but I'll I'll actually be nice today we'll read a little more and therefore people can pick and choose because they don't believe in the very basis at all and they pick things which were easier now here the r again is going to now make that link that we saw before the carites so essentially the raham is claiming and this is not a very simple historical claim the raham is claiming that the kites in his day that by tusam in the second temple period are are all the same now whether he means they're the same because the rahen is telling you that the you know is the same that they believe in the same kind of thing and it's the same kind of belief or is the rahen telling you that no this is the same people and it's the same lineage and then therefore the Karim are the are the those who inherited that stus which I think would be a little bit more difficult to say but nonetheless the rambam is claiming over here and he did not say this in the mission Torah this he's saying in the parish he go really he goes a little bit further there is something similar in the P inulin where he goes a little bit further let's see they were the ones and again he comes to the lands that we live right now and again he's drawing the connection between Theus and the carites in Isel he does not go that way he he knows probably I'm sure he knows this Ramba and remember I quoted a m a while back so he is commenting on that mishna and he talks about these two bad groups now he does not say that they denied again we saw a particular bausi we saw a particular taduki who did he does not go he does not not say go that far and again you do have to war about the influences of Greek philosophy then right other and then we'll skip a little bit back over here there's a whole different group called The and they emerge at a much later time no they don't have the same beliefs it's completely different there's no there's nothing which is similar between them and each one did do some things properly and each one according to what they believed all of them believe in scripture again not like the we started with and uh so here he thinks that the are really quite different from the from the s just to make things a little bit difficult we find over here which we learned last week that ring had his s benun so who's this benun and by the way zun actually had a very good position and byus had a very significant position and what is rigel doing with them are are is this come on let's be honest it could be just a coincidence it could be the same name it does doesn't have to be by per se although notice ring gets into an argument with other regarding Arin mean the problem is making an AR with somebody who's not Jewish that one opinion is that is like and you can't include him in the AR and then he goes and talks about who lived in his neighborhood had a very good relation ship with him the there by the way are reasons I'm quoting this as well just in terms of our topic also and it's very interesting though that ringham Leo takes this position as I said I don't know how far to put this but I will leave it at that is there anything else that I want here yeah well we we can skip a whole bunch of these and now we'll look at source 37 and then we're going to get to something RBI salvic said in past about this the the gar over here tells us starting actually with the mishna there was a Tak made that when one person says to his friend how are you you say it now just pause with all this who gave them permission to say Shem I'm allowed to say shash when I say I'm allowed to say shash in certain situations why you all to say so here in the has a long explanation for this phenomena you know what's the background and why they doing it and he goes to ver shown him you know why this may be problematic but at some place towards the end he comes and he says the following the r left out this Tak that you bless your friends with God's name and why would the ra do this it's possible and and this is also part of much larger disc distinction between the bosis versus the rambam about what is considered to be saying God's name in vain by the way nonetheless the gar says that you do it says no must be the r understood as a temporary injunction [Music] so the RV here says something which is brilliant he says why would you use God's name and why would you say that God is me it must be to counter somebody who doesn't believe this so therefore how do you counter the sedim or the Bim who were spreading around this belief that there's no other world you to you swear in God's name that there is another world when you meet another Jew in order to instill within them the belief and and this comes about during the time in order to weaken the in order that people should know that God is in our lives only is there we find a source but this Tak really must have been by the second tempal period so the r then says so it makes sense this was only in order to get rid of theim now what question would I then have on this the question I would have is I try to point out a whole bunch of cases where the ram is claiming that Sim and the carites are the same thing so if they're the same thing then any Tak against the Sim should still be a Tak against the carites and therefore instead of the ram not quoting this because it doesn't apply in his time if the raham believed stuk must still around and they're still doing the same thing so then you should still have the same takana unless you're going to say that the rahen believes that when it comes to 98% of the things the Kites and theim are the same but when it comes to this particular thing they're not the same so therefore there's a downside to this the downside is saying God's name in vain you can't say God's name in vain kazal thought there was a purpose for it but if the purpose no longer exists the thing you're trying to counter no longer exists so therefore the ROM doesn't bring this down because it's not there but as I said we saw a whole bunch of meaning if the r were here today and the r you know pulled out this parish and explained the ROM why does the ram ring this takana because the was only against the there it's it's not needed I would ask him but what about the rambam in one two three places we saw today that he says that the stum and the carites are the same so how would you explain that so as I said we could try to guess what answer he would give and he certainly would have had an answer believe me we are not going to pull out a ROM that he didn't know he KN he knew the rambam better than you know ashre he KN he knew it absolutely with Clarity and he worked out every single rambam and if he said this that means that even though it looked really similar to us and we were convinced and we were reading this that the sadim and the kites are absolutely the same it must be that they're almost the same they're absolutely the same except in the ways that they're not the same and the ways they're not the same and therefore yeah we saw that far Israel saying no they're absolutely not the same except for the ways that they are the same and we see that the r said based on the r look they're absolutely the same again the Rah saying they're absolutely the same except for the places that they're not the same so it must be that it's not the same just to get one last uh thing because this is actually important there's a footnote to this and the footnote is footnote number three and it says thatu and the rough quoted and therefore would not write in the top of his letter head or when he would write letters because the r leaves this out he doesn't say that you use the shame hasem so therefore he leaves out the barem on the top of the page when he would write letters so and this is also very typical of the of the r to along the way bring bring a bring who was mic from Aram and then uses it absolutely in life and I'm going to bring you one last thing there is a uh here in Source 40 in it says it's aish that there was once a CO who does the of he does this in the wrong way and everybody pelts the fellow with atog so the RV explains and there's something very important about what the r says over here and I uh and you don't always get this when you read things from the r certain times he said things with absolute seriousness and as if the whole world depended on that interpretation of that particular moment but then there were things that he said with a smile on his face and he had a very very nice smile and a very broad smile and when he said it he knew that it was uh amusing and this was said with a smile it says that once and by the way it doesn't mean it's true it just means that he said it with a smile it says they threw the go one should not why they there's a lot of laws of which are based I mean just think about all the laws of building the prees the fact that the Rog is the preat it's the only way that we know this by throwing theog at the fellow who doesn't believe in Pre so they're saying a with the with theog and that's for they're throwing theog that theog is a of T and they're throwing the T him and hitting the fellow in the head with theim because theog is the of T said over to the fellow who doesn't believe in that particular tradition of uh of tal Al um as you see I collected a lot I have more not everything we're going to read and uh you know what the RV would not have given this sheer I can absolutely assure you the the RV would have used less sources and his analysis would have been much sharper and he would have said something which would have cut through everything and then you would all been convinced that every word was absolutely correct because that's what happens when he spoke but on the other hand we did get to quote him a little bit and we saw enough of the sources to appreciate when he said was not the simplest thing to have said but nonetheless it ends up becoming the way to resolve and to put all the sources together and that was important at the end of the day the sources out come had to uh come together and what we see is that there was a battle between those who keep T and or maybe I'll say this differently those who follow the m and those who don't or if civic's life was dedicated to following the M both on a personal sense but also in a way of passing it over to others and the fact that there were dissidents who lived along time ago and then the Raman points out and you know what and there were dissidents who uh who live in an our time as well talking about the Ram's time in Egypt the carites in you know in our lifetimes there are also dissidents around there are groups who don't necessarily follow the T shal and then that's what I hinted at along the way that the RV created the best ability for us to defend our belief to protect our belief to protect our system to protect our M to be Bal Mas to pass over our tradition to our children and to our our grandchildren but at the same time at a personal level there were members of the reform and the conservative movements who felt very comfortable to call him up and to ask him questions and uh on a personal level felt that he was somebody who they can talk to even though again on a different level his life was completely dedicated towards passing on the m and therefore this fight against those against the M whether it has to do with the OM and maybe think about this a little more now as we're counting the the Omer whether it's about the aod of the of the coal yum Kipper or other places that people you know came in to try to argue with what our tradition is that our passing on our tradition our being engaged in it and the tools that we have and I'll say this again maybe there was nobody in our lifetimes who gave us the tools as much as rabbi salvic did because the way and the method and the approach and the thinking and the articulation all of it was absolutely dedicated to the past but putting it in a way that we could present it in the present and towards the future and again that the Mur will live in this old ancient religion which could have been rejected long ago instead become something which is absolutely vibrant and absolutely enchanting is really the present that he left us with and uh his words are absolutely just as relevant today as they were 31 years ago when he passed away against the yes you you have a very 19th century question looking for uh for broad big uh systems and and one answer which will explain everything I'm not sure I mean yes I was thinking in the same direction but then again some of this was stum and some of this was by tusum so there's not necessarily going to be a commonality between what what they're looking at you know if you take for example the Sim's understanding that you have to walk in already enclothed with a cloud that could indicate this need for distance from God that God is too great and therefore we can't possibly approach god without some kind of a protection but it's also interesting because the real argument between the sedim and between K was not just accepted Traditions theim actually that's really was the's point they accepted a lot of tradition the stuk didn't argue how you do is completely based upon right it doesn't say any place how you do so if you only accept how do you do they accepted they really didn't accept the ability of to make new interpretations which means there seems to be again this covering up this over this sense or this feeling that God is too great and how can I possibly form a partnership with God and therefore maybe it is a fear of the Holy maybe that's really what it is a fear of the Holy but again I'm I'm afraid to try to say and give an interpretation that will be in every single case and and again some of the sources that we saw were much worse than that they made these people sound that they absolutely did not believe not just in ter believe in Tav either and you know we saw the ramom say that as well and there was to support meaning if I then ask myself okay where did the ROM get that from that's exactly where we started he says mosha loved the Jews and mosha made all the stuff up stop mosha made this up so yeah you love people today who are going to take the same position but again I question whether that was the thought of every single by two or not or every single saduki or not and I don't know the answer to that question