Ashkenaz~Sefard Hebrew Pronunciations (Pt III) | Rabbi Anthony Manning | June 4th 2025

buddy. Thank you for coming. It's good to see you all. I hope that you're Shavuot went well. You enjoyed Hag. Um I want to ask you please to turn off your phones, if you don't mind. Uh and also I want to thank our sponsors for the academic year this year in the sponsor of Zelig ben Kalman of branded. And we're Zichroni we're very grateful for that um for that sponsorship. Okay, today's sheet is uh the repayment of a debt that I owe you uh that I promised you and then we got sidetracked onto other things and I don't remember exactly what happened, but there was some special Wednesday sessions and we never got to finish our conversation. But it's a fascinating conversation and this was the bit I think you were all actually looking forward to was the discussion not just about Hebrew pronunciation and Havara, but the permissibility of changing Havara. Now, I was one of these kids that was brought up in England uh in a where they had an Israeli teacher try to hammer into us uh the Ivrit uh Havara, okay? And at the same time was going to a shul in which uh there was no Ivrit Havara, but that has Ashkenazi Havara. And uh probably like most of the people in my generation, I came out pretty Ashkenazi. Uh which you probably heard if you've been listening to me long enough. So, um it's not ideal by a long way, but I'd like to look at some of the Tshuvas. Or the Tshuvas, I'm not going to keep saying that. Uh we do have a lot of words on the page in this in today's sheet and I'm not going to say every word. Uh otherwise, we'll run out of time and I want to pace ourselves so that we can make sure we get this done properly. I obviously have extracted from some of these Tshuvas for you. I've not brought you the whole of the Tshuvas, but I've brought you about nine or 10 Tshuvas from some of the classics uh during the 20th century on this and we'll see we've got Rav Rav Cook, please God, Don Weiss, we've got Rav Herzog, Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Sisli Yitzhak, we have Rav Rav Shimon Frank, Rav Uziel, Rav Ovadia Yosef, we've got some real excitement coming up Rav Waldenberg, Rav Auerbach, sorry, and we have Rav Weinberg. So I'm going to just jump around a little bit inside the sources and pick out from them. We'll read the first one pretty much in full and then we'll skip over subsequent ones where they repeat some of the material so that but I brought more of the Tshuvot so you can read it on your own. So in part one we looked at the historical background. This was a few months ago. You can find them on the OU site. You can find them on my website as well. We saw Rav Moshe Feinstein's pronouncement that all legitimate Havarot meaning any mainstream Jewish community that decides to pronounce Hebrew a certain way, that is a legitimate Havarah. And he's very clear about that. Obviously you can't just make up your own pronunciation, but if you're a mainstream Orthodox community then that is legit and we'll see what he has to say about the distinction between public and private. He's going to have some interesting Tshuvot about Bar Mitzvah boys who have been taught in Israeli pronunciation who are having Bar Mitzvahs in shuls where the shul saying, "No, no, no, no, we don't do that here." And what do you do with this poor little Bar Mitzvah boy who's, you know, left high and dry? Well, we'll talk about that. And then we looked in part two at some of the implications in Tefillah, in Kriyat Shema. A very important one which we'll see again today is how you pronounce God's name. Is it Nai or is it Noi? That could be very important indeed and one of the issues that people get excited about. But let's let's have a look at these Tshuvot. The first section is people who say you may not switch your Havara. Okay? The second section is the people that say you may sometimes, and the third section is the people that say you may do as you wish. Okay? As long as you do it well. So, we'll see we'll we'll we'll see we'll see we'll see that right now. So, let's start with Rav Kook. Now, you might in a very kind of simplistic way have expected, well, Rav Kook, he's going to be the big Sioni, and he's going to be the one that says we should all become Ivrits speakers. In fact, quite the opposite. Rav Kook is very clear that one may not switch Havara from Ashkenazis, and you can be a Sioni as you want, but you should continue to speak the way you were your ancestors spoke. And in fact, if you go to Mekez Harav, you will hear that the Rosh Yeshiva still speak in Ashkenazis, not in Ivrits. But let's see what Rav Kook has to say. So, he's giving this Tshuvas in 1932. Look what he says. Number one, we're going to read this mostly all the way through. So, different pronunciations, different communities. Are you allowed to Sorry. Are you allowed to change what you're used to? You have an ancient tradition. You are whatever you are. You switch from one to the other. Are you allowed? With the whole government. You're not very sure. But the first thing he says is, look, even if you switched, it's not going to ruin anything. It's not going to prevent your and your from actually having effects. Because we we like in the okay. The the okay. So, if you read, but you weren't mcdaid take by yourself in schmo, you didn't say the man crew and you didn't pronounce all the things exactly right. Yatsa. You're Yotzei. Even if you say it without all the dictation, you're Yotzei. Certainly if you're pronouncing it in a way which other people do pronounce it's not just you've messed it up, but you're pronouncing it according to a legitimate mainstream Havara. Even though that's not the Havara of your community. I get it's not it's not you're not doing it more or less accurately compared to other people necessarily because you're a legitimate Havara and you're Yotzei B'dieved. That's the first thing he says. The second thing, second paragraph, aval l'chatchila but that's only B'dieved. L'chatchila you should really be saying it the way you normally speak. We'll talk about what normal is it soon. He's going to get back to this in a few paragraphs because you can't just depart from your Minhag. Minhag is a very important thing. Minhag is not just you know, Minhagim you know, I have this one and that one. It's not like I have a Minhag to have scrambled eggs on a Sunday morning. That's not a Minhag. I don't by the way, but okay. Who has time on a Sunday morning anymore? Okay? But the the the Minhag means it's binding. It's like a neder from your community or that you brought on yourself. You can't just mess around with Minhag. If it's you can't just switch around because dictation you it's not all the Havarot because everyone has its own very carefully planned pronunciation. Because compared to another Havara you're not saying it right. You don't achieve what the Gamara says you should achieve what it says V'li. okay you have to do that time that you're learning your speaking your reciting of these words should be time should be perfect should be complete. The name of the the Gamorina that we learn okay she had time. You even have to be careful not to run words into each other in the we're all familiar with this we talked about this the show the show in Sydney can't swallow whole sounds whole letters may have been to you fine so you do have to be careful but then he interjects a note of caution he just said that you're okay he says well maybe sometimes not even paragraph three I'm really counting the big paragraphs here. The Aaron he's saying this is the by the way it's not so clear who wrote the maybe it was Aaron in Spain maybe it was his brother in case of a coin with someone in that probably in that family but he wants to say that means okay so we have this means for that 420 cuz when we say if you didn't pronounce the properly then that's only when you didn't leave the space between the words so that you're they're not quite clear or should I hit this crew you see all these men starting to in the middle of they're not on vibrate mode they're trying to say crew okay it's if you didn't do all that okay you didn't do it but the other you're okay or should I you didn't elongate the which we talked about in the share there is no way that anyone these days apart from the Emirates can actually do that properly you can't say explosive dollar in a in way because you just can't because you either start putting letters before it which is just like 16 alephs before the or which is like 15 races after the daleth. So only the only the Yemenites can do because they can say a ha etc. Fine. So that's the kind of thing he's talking about but the yotze. The same second line of part third paragraph and the ends there the oitiot. But if you missed out whole letters or you missed out whole words of course YOU'RE SAY WHAT ON EARTH you want. It's if you didn't put all the bells and whistles on then okay but the after the fact you're yotze. But if you miss out whole letters then of course you're not yotze. According to this says Rav Kook that according to one it's not just the bells and whistles you're saying a completely different word. When say he it means who? There's no more two different words than he and who? Okay. So so how does that work? You're saying a completely different word. because they say completely differently. And we'll see he keeps coming back to the Yemenites. Rav Kook is a big fan of the Yemenite have a rah. The Yemenites especially should come they have their own very special pronunciation if you remember from the first year look on the first year source sheet I brought you links to websites where you can hear real Yemenites speaking real Yemenite and it's it really feels like a a very different pronunciation. In case says Rav Kook yes that here too if you're just using the wrong have a rah or Ashkenazi or vice versa if you don't know how to if people in that pronunciation that you're now in but you're doing differently wouldn't recognize the word should you ought to have all does that as the same letter the same letter word yes you tell me it's like you missed out the word or the letter. You're just pronouncing it wrong. Yes I can do the other and you're not even but you have to be going to the okay fine. So you just have to be very careful he says you can't just say but you have it's all going to be fine cuz no you may have pronounced words in legitimately a different way. And now now he says you know in paragraph four but I want to tell you it's really not okay to change he says we tell from everything we've written we will show my home hotel not that we there is no justification for anyone changing that he says Even if you want to say that you didn't change that much there's no justification for changing because it's it's good it's not so you can't do it. And you've changed your ancient heritage how do you you've slipped up you've made a big mistake. Even though we give precedence this is already 1932 the accents which is not really the it's the Israeli modern Hebrew accent is already gaining prominence he says we we give that prominence He says but don't think for one minute that's because I think it's the right thing to do. Okay. You speak like I've not had a record of him speak but it's so beautiful it reads that's because it has a certain beauty but that doesn't mean it's right in terms of halakha. But the real test of a pronunciation is how it pronounces the words, the and the vowels. Well, I want to tell you something. I think the Ashkenazim are one up on the Sephardim on this. He says we do better than the Sephardim. Okay? The So there's your hierarchy. Number one, the winner gold prize goes to the Yemenites. The silver prize goes to the Ashkenazim, and the bronze runner-up prize goes to the Sephardim, even though he says it has a beautiful sound to it. There but that's your that's your hierarchy. Okay? That's why he says not to switch from Ashkenazi you're going down a grade. So now look at the sixth paragraph. He talks about here. And apart from the fact that we have traditions and the traditions for each pronunciation, no one is worse than the other one. And if you're from a community, you have to be wary of breaking the do not abandon the Torah of your mother. Torah is not the the hard black and white lines of but it's the and the the way that the community conducts itself we'll see in a few minutes. What about the tunes? What about the can you change the tunes in shul? Some people are very unhappy about that. We'll get to that in a minute, okay? This is your minute. Just like we have in we'll get to that soon cuz we'll see that other people disagree with this. We'll see Uziel He was we'll see soon who is the chief rabbi of Israel again as well. He turns around and says no. is only when it comes to a matter. My Minag let's say is to keep six hours. I actually keep three hours. But let's say someone's keeping six hours between milkings and fleshigs. They can't uh fleshigs and milkings, excuse me. Um they can't just turn around and say, "Ah, you know what? I'm going to keep one hour now because the the Dutch can't all be wrong, you know?" So so they they they are wrong. And here's here's one who knows. Here's one who knows. So so you can't just But we'll see that Rav Ovadia Yosef says that no, when it comes to things like this, there's no Alti Tosh Torah to Mecha on this. This is not Issur Veheter. Rav Kook says, "No, it's the same. It's no different. The Inyanei Chaim Mishpacha, even your family Minagim, you have to be very careful with them. Bein Lekula, and I don't care whether they are lenient or LeChumra." It's not about him telling you to be strict. It's about him telling you to be to be consistent and authentic. I remember once someone told me in the name of Rav Don Lopkin. I never heard him say it, but I can imagine him saying it. But you need to research it if you don't believe me. He said that Don Lopkin in London, Gershon Lopkin Zechuto Yagen Aleinu if there was a Challah of Yashan and a Challah of Chadash next to each other in Chutz La'aretz, he said he would Davka eat the Challah of Chadash even though he has an option of one with less Halachic problems because the Minag of Chutz La'aretz was to be Meikel on Chadash for hundreds and hundreds of years. And who am I, he said, to break with that Minag of of being Meikel, of being lenient on Chadash. Other people, their hair would stand on end and say, "Okay, if you have no choice, then eat the the Chadash. You can rely on the Minag not to be Makpid. But if you have a choice, there's no, no. The Minag is the Minag. Bein Lekula, Bein LeChumra. VeChalilah Lifrotz Bezeh Pirutzim. God forbid we should start breaking through these Minagim Ki Kabalas Avos Hi Kiyum HaTorah Shelanu." What is the Torah without Mesorah? What is the Torah without keeping our heritage and our Minagim going? Al Kein, therefore, "Hinei Ne'emar BeChazak Ki Dei Osei Mitzvah Lishatei El HaChok." I want you to do everything you can as long as you do it in a way which is nice and you don't cause my etc. Shalom never change your accent your have a particular if you're a Yemenite you see what he's coming from this pressure on the Yemenite this was before the big and the other Yemenite but pressure on the Yemenite to conform to quotes and quotes normative if rates in Israel don't give in the that they're changing for them is even worse the in and and if we want to get into mushy when the capitalist talk about this the capitalist put a lot of store on exactly how you pronounce every vowel every letter every time has a has a meaning I just wrote a an article about the is one of the notes the time in but the Zohar goes to town on the importance of the represents the connection of the divine feminine and the divine masculine and if you don't pronounce it right he get I mean who knew the answer is so learn and you'll know you'll know how important it is to to get these things right if you get into the everything points to the same direction if you're teaching is God forbid you should teach children to change the forget about what other people do because they do it without permission you've got to teach Ashkenazis, or Yemenite, or what else, Sefardi, whatever you are, unforgiving. So, you might ask, so, okay, Shkoyach, the Rosh Yeshiva in Merkaz Harav still speak with I mean, I was last there a few years ago. I imagine it's still the case. Still have the same Rosh Yeshiva, Shapiro. Um, but what about the boys? No one in Merkaz Harav speaks with a Havara Ashkenazis. Or certainly not not certainly not the Sefardi, but certainly not the Ashkenazi. They all speak with Ivrit. So, the answer is so, the answer seems to be Rav Tzvi Yehuda has said uh later in the '60s and '70s, look, you know, what can we do? It's just too late. It's too confusing for the boys who speak Ivrit all day long to then switch into davening in Hava Hava Ashkenazis. It's just too confusing and they'll get it wrong. Uh okay. I mean, some of the Haredi manage, uh or do they not manage? I was in a Hebron offshoot Yeshiva, and most of the guys who were Haredi in the Yeshiva um managed to switch from their regular speech, which was obviously in Hebrew, they don't even speak in Yiddish, they speak in modern Hebrew, and they managed to more or less get it right in Sefardi to go back into Ashkenazis, but they don't always get it right, and they do make a little bit of a of a challah of it sometimes. But, Rav Tzvi Yehuda has said, look, it's not going to work here, and therefore we're not going to do it, against, if you like, the psak of his father, although we don't know what Rav Kook would have said in 19 Rav Tzvi Yehuda senior would have said in 1970, um whether he would have said, you're right, it's it's a mess, and he would have said differently. But, that's Rav Kook. Okay, fine. Just to bring you from uh some of the older sources on this, turn over to page two. The Magain Avraham writes a beautiful uh piece on the Shulchan Aruch, where he talks as follows. Number two. Ha'Ari, we're talking about now the Magain Avraham is in the 17th century in Poland. Ha'Ari Z"l, Lo haya omer piyutim u'pizmonim ela ma she sidru harishonim. The Ariza would not put in extra piyutim or extra pizmonim. He wouldn't change the songs they sang in shul other than he would say the ones that were traditional. and he was of course well he was he Spanish or was he Ashkenazi that's interesting question. The Ari is a bit of a mixture himself but his community in Safed was was Sefarad. Okay. Could going Hakaliri like Eleazar Hakaliri Shnitkanu Al Dat Ha Emet because they have all the Kabbalistic nuances in them. Amnon says the Magain Avraham "I'm in Hagin Shenagu Ba'ar She'ar She'atfila. I'm in Hagin which we have in Sefila therefore Ain Leshanot Min Hag Makom." You may not change from your Minag. Now of course he says Minag Makom we don't have Minag Makom anymore because we're all mixed up in places but it's the Minag of your community. Maybe we have an associative community. It's not really your place. "Kiyud Bet Shearim Ba'shamayim." There are 12 different roots to get to heaven with your Sefila. "Neged Yud Bet Shevatim" according to the 12 tribes "Because Shevet Yesh Lo Sha'ar U'minag Le'vad." There you are you see 12 different ways of davening 12 different approaches 12 different tribes. Um "U'ma She'niskah Ba'gemara Shaveh Le'kol." And anything which is specifically mandated by the Gemara so everyone has to do. By the way the Ariza'l came along with Nusach Ari. What happened to 12 different ways of doing things? Why is there such a thing as Nusach Ari? There shouldn't be Nusach Ari. The Nusach Ari should be do whatever your Nusach is cuz you're one of the 12 tribes. So the Ari said you know something people don't know which tribe they're in anymore so I'm giving them a 13th option which works for everybody. That's Nusach Ari. That's what he said. The 13th option. And there's always been this tendency to try and unify Rav Goren wanted to have Nusach Echad. You know which was everybody having that it never catches on cuz people like to stick with their tribal affiliations. Okay? "V'zeh Lashon Ha'gemara" third line "V'zeh Lashon Ha'gemara" Yerushalmi. In the Gemara Yerushalmi says "Afilu Pishash Shalachnu Lachem." Okay. "Seder Ha'tfilot." Even the we the rabbis are sending you out your the certain standards below do not change your min hug in the king castle the safer than he brings the safer from the Middle Ages because of sugar cooking show sorry tomorrow you have to stick to the tunes you have to say there's three levels there's no sex There's have a rock And there's maybe even the songs so no for sure he said he should stick to your nose second will see the people say what is the price also to your have a rather magnify wasn't talking about have a rock he was talking about no no no I shouldn't have a chance to say to buy the way I think I don't know if I share this with you I only found out a couple of weeks ago why no fire is called no fire when I shouldn't have a you know created the no and the answer is it was the in Poland and and and Galicia and Ukraine etc that wanted to adopt the cabalistic No of the community who were the Spanish they call them the Spanish therefore it was called no fire because they weren't trying to be able to and they were the no of the Spanish as in the Spanish who came from Spain so far that's why it's called no fire apparently but maybe even the new girl as well and I think we've we're losing the battle on new girl everything changes I'm a kind of fashion kind of person and I I went where I went for I went to a show I've never done anything before And I was delighted to hear the cottage before and you want to marry before which has a very specific new girl and and now every I mean for the last 23 years since I've lived in Israel I don't think I've ever heard the same tune twice usually can't even tell what tune it is honestly when people sing it it's just a mess but this I was like I was in and I could hear the the singing this special is that because there's a new girl for everything there's a new girl for cottage on your night before this and from Yontif morning before that. Question, sir? Yeah. I'm curious what is the specific definition of the word Yisrael. And I'll tell you why. Go on. Because occasionally it's shown in the Bal Tfillah. The Bal means so fast. You can't say what Right. Even that historically. Right, so we'll get to that. No, we'll get to that. There's actually we'll see a source exactly on that coming up soon. We'll see a safer Hasidim that talks about distorted uh Bal Tfillah. We'll We'll talk about that soon. Shulchan Aruch actually says that that's one of the reasons why there's a halacha number three Tzarich L'faneach P'sachim o Chalonot K'neged Yerushalayim. Your shul has to have windows in the direction of Yerushalayim K'dei L'hitpalel K'negdan so you can daven. You can look through the window. Obviously, you won't see Yerushalayim in most parts of the world, but you'll you'll imagine Yerushalayim V'toshiu B'veit Haknesset Yud Chalonot. And the shul should have 12 windows. And many shuls are very makpid on this. Sometimes when they have the stained glass windows with the tribes. Obviously, tribes is easy. You can have 12 tribes, but many shuls have uh 12 windows. Actually, in Al Hanissim, I counted the number of windows on our Mizrach wall and got to 48. So, I don't know where we got that from, but uh they're little windows. Maybe they don't all count. Maybe they're just like 12 12 big windows divided into It's It's It Maybe it's divided by four. Yeah, yeah, I get it. Maybe it was 49. I don't remember. Okay, fine. Okay, let's go into the Minchas Soser. We're not going to read every word here, but the Minchas Soser Don Weiss. Who's he writing this teshuvah to? This teshuvah is in 1958. He's He's writing this teshuvah to me one of the 10 years before I was born or nine years before I was born. Look at what he says. The Yisraelits B'tfillah B'chol Davar Sheb'kedushah. And he's writing uh uh in 1958 in Manchester to L'chvod Yedidi Harav Hagaon M'fursam L'shevach U'l'tilah. Who is it? Rav Yisrael Brody, Shlita. Who is Rabbi Israel Brodie? Chief Rabbi of the British Empire. I don't think he was even an empire by then, of England, Britain in 1958. And look what he says. In number four, second paragraph. I want to to tell you, your honor, he says. There's a new thing that people are doing. Okay. They're becoming they're they're they're making this new minag lashonot. They're changing this minhag. To this new Is- Israeli pronunciation. Okay. Okay. Which isn't even Sefardic. It's taken from Sefardic. But it's not really even Sefardic. And I You may not change it. Why not? So go to the second paragraph. It says little aleph here, third paragraph. He quotes the Magain Avraham we've just seen together talking about the nusach. You can't change from your minag, said the Magain Avraham. Who posited under line This also applies to your miftah. You may not change the miftah. It's a very very big issue. Now go down a few paragraphs to where it says little bet in sub-paragraphs up from the bottom. There's bet and then the bottom paragraph gimel. So look at bet. We we also know We know that we have certain advantages in our Ashkenazis have a rishus. Like Rav Kook said. Because the the Israeli pronunciation Harry ain't my dealing been the path. There's no distinction between and in case you ain't my dealing been the whole and therefore they can't distinguish between and in shame no no it's two different words I don't know means my Lord's call no means call this it's a very big problem for God and I ain't even have dollars or it's so important to get that right and he brings down from which we looked at what can we do what can we do about this? In case call I can get if people say this even against the genuine pronunciation and it's about that's a genuine from Morocco from Yemen from Yemen from Iraq etc. So second Mr. All the more so but no Mr. Listen now his some of his underlying concerns are showing here all the more so Hebrew modern Hebrew. It's only partially derived from okay how can how can an intelligent person do this but I and there was a who said and he was right that the modern Israeli pronunciation okay it unites within it it all have a lot all the downsides of every other can be found together in modern Israeli pronunciation okay. It have to love and they failed to distinguish between the and the like the that I and they don't pronounce the iron and the heads properly like the it's a big mess they just have they just unite all the worst of all things. And even worse, they're Zionists. And he'll say this now in number five. Even that would even be if they were trying to change this sham shamayim. I thought not that we all know, he says. And not one of them, not all of them, not part of them. Right or or meets. They're only interested in the nationalism. Yesh nation. And therefore the regime and you can't you can't change it for that reason. So Rabbi Weiss, Dayan Weiss, who became the head of the Hareidis, okay, who is clearly not a Zionist, but Rabbi Brody, of course, is caught between a rock and a hard place. Because Rabbi Brody, in in principle, I suppose is a sort of Zionist. I don't I haven't done a study of Rabbi Brody's life. He's the chief rabbi of the United Synagogue and that they certainly have a more Zionist tendency. But he's trying to persuade him to crack down on this change in the Fedorim and I say that was my experience in the 1970s when I went to Chedel. So they brought the Had a Hebrew teachers. I remember her name, Miss Barda, they called her. So I don't know what happened to her, but anyway, I haven't thought of her for 50 years nearly, but 45 years. So but that but I don't think it works. Yes. What happens to the mostly national Sometimes the middle and the end Ah, good. changes the meaning of the word. Yes. Yes, Rachel and Rachel Yes, they're feeling with very particular about this cuz it does change the meaning of the word. For example, I think we've lost all hope for for So What can I mean am I talking about that? Okay, right, right, right, right. Yeah, I think Yes, you're right. And therefore it should be correct. But we'll see soon but the avid for even if he says it all wrong, we'll see the safer says, you know, have on the guy. God understands everybody's hearts. He knows we saw in the earlier I don't know if you were in the earlier but there were who stood up and mispronounced so much they were saying the God should destroy you. God should destroy you all. And and and and like people are listening to this saying, "What what's this man saying?" Take him off. And and I mean and and and the the safer brings there that the raft took him off. He said you can't let him do you can't do it. And the raft had a dream that night is no you must put him back or it'll be terribly bad for you because this poor guy he's doing the best he can. So how far do you take that? We have an issue in our there's a there's a very strict rule anyone who has not just a side but a in the next week gets to on and people do their best but not everybody is is a okay? Not all are you know? Not a right. And as I told you before I grew up with understanding that is okay, fine. Okay, fine. The number five let's go on to page three. Let's just skip a little bit through these. Number five is in the heart. He says look you shouldn't change your a rab. But you know something no one's going to listen if you tell them. And you have to heed the words of the that were where you're going to give to and try and help and it's actually going to be ignored you're better off keeping quiet. So he says you have to be judicious in the way that you apply this obviously and said the same thing you should keep but agrees you can't change your you You to be you have to be careful how you say it. Rav Herzog, what's Rav Herzog going to say? Cuz Rav Herzog is not going to the first Chief Rabbi of the State of Israel, Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi. He's not going to say, "Well, the evil Zionists brought this in and therefore you can't follow them." Obviously, he's not going to say that. So, what does he say? So, he's writing to a rav in Johannesburg in 1945. Okay. Source number six. So, look at what he says. Let's just look at a couple of lines of this. Uh in the second paragraph here. You're not allowed to change. Who's to blame? It's the reform. It's not the Zionists to be blamed. It's the reform that's to blame. It's the Maskilim. People have this cynical negative attitude against the Masoret. This is why they're changing. It's not Zionism. That's not the problem. The problem is reform. And he goes on in this vein basically and he tells the Chief Rabbi of or the Rabbi here of the shul in in I think he is a Chief Rabbi actually. In Chief in South Africa, he says you must resist. Cuz don't forget the South African community were very traditional, still are very traditional. And he's worried about changing that and he says, "No, this is a sub to the reform. This is a giving way against the Masora." And therefore he tells him not to change from Ashkenazis. Now again, this is Rav Herzog talking to a chutsnik. In chutz la'aretz. This is not Rav Herzog in Israel. But he's saying in chutz la'aretz, if you change there's another problem which is you are you are giving in to the reform movement. I don't know if that's really the case today in any serious way. I'm not sure any of these statements about if you do this then it'll strengthen the reform movement or the conservative movement. You know, this this chuva was 8 years ago. I'm not sure it works the same way today, but it's it's worth bearing in mind. Now, a couple of quick mentions before we get back into another set of fascinating chuvas. Igros Moshe. So, the Igros Moshe in number seven, he says all havaros are good. And he says therefore if you were to if you were to switch your havara, then don't worry because the one you switched to as long as it's an accepted I'm not sure he's so happy about modern Hebrew, but an acceptable one, then the ever did it's okay. But he says you must stick to the community minhag and therefore he gives a psak here in number seven that you may from 1969 that the bar mitzvah boy has to lain in the havara of the community. He said, "I know it's not ideal, but that is the psak that he gives and that was Rav Zalman Auerbach's psak as well. Even at Kiddushin feel the Rav Mesader Kiddushin at a wedding and you're marrying off a couple of Sefardim, then or his Sefardi, the the Rav has to speak say the brakhot in a Sefardi havara. You have to go with the minhag of the community. You have to adjust as you go along. I mean, I suppose you have to you have to know what you're doing. I once went to a Yemenite shul and I was called called up as the as the token Ashkenazi. I'm not going to try and copy what's going on there. They'll just think it's Purim. So, but you should try. However, in number eight, which I'm again going to leave you to read for yourself, Rav Moshe in a later chuva, this was a chuva to a Yekkish shul in Argentina. And you know what the Yekkim are like, okay? They don't want to give up on their minhagim for any reason whatsoever and they were faced with an increasing number of bar mitzvah boys who were being trained with an a Hebrew Ivrit pronunciation and they were they were going ballistic. You know, what's going to be? So, if you read this chuva, you'll see later I'm not going to read it all through. But Rav Moshe says, "Look, have rachmanus on the poor kid. Um what you need to do is make sure that you have at least a minyan that is laining with the authentic minag of the shul." He says, "First of all, if the kid just does mafteir and haftorah, which probably they did in those days, that's fine. Yeah, because the laining was already in the proper quotes and quotes havarah." But even if the kid's doing the whole sedra, he says, "Just make sure you have a hashkama minyan. The shul has to have a a laining which is in the right havarah. Or you have a little bit sum sum minyan on the side. You get take take 10 men and have a little laining in another room. So at least the the minag of the community is not being altered. But he says to have rachmanus on the bar mitzvah boy. He's just a kid. And he allowed him." I don't know whether Rav Moshe changed his position a little bit from '69 to '80, whether or whether it's just two different situations. It seems like there's a little bit of a shift. If you read it, you can tell me what you think. That he's basically realizing that it's a little bit of a lost a lost battle. Um Oh, there's a phone just going off. Sure, then just take a look at it. Thank you. Number nine. Again, I'm going to mention this outside together with number 10, which we're going to get well to get to we'll get more into the to the weeds. Number nine is the Tzel Elya's. The Tzel Elya's says there was a a young man who was asked to go to hospitals to make kiddush for the nurses on Shabbos morning. And the nurses were all Sefardiyots in this particular case. So he says, "Can I They won't They don't understand what I'm saying if I say Ashkenazis? And they think it's funny. I think I told you once that I once went to friends of ours for kiddush many years ago, and all the kids grew up with Israeli pronunciation, and I happened to make kiddush. I must have come in later or something. And I said kiddush like I said kiddush, and the kids all started laughing hysterically. They thought I was making all the words up. They didn't know what was going on." So he says, "What are you going to do?" He says, "You can switch. It's not a problem. Just what as a one-off. If you switch as a one-off into a different accent, that's fine because it's a legitimate accent. It's a legitimate pronunciation. You're not making a permanent switch, you're making a temporary switch, and therefore you can do it. He says, "And you're also Yotzei. Don't worry that you're not Yotzei." I have the shaila sometimes when I'm with my grandchildren. So, Baruch Hashem, they come to us for Shabbos and we sit and we say Kriyas Shema together in shul. They're only little, they're like six and five, etc. So, I say the Shema with them. It's the bit of the davening that they recognize. The rest of the davening, they're running around, they don't know what's going on. One of them is in kindergarten, the other one's in kita aleph, she's beginning to get a little bit more. So, when I say Shema with them, so I say it like the way they say it, which is not the way I say it. Because I say it with Ashkenazis, and they say it as Israeli children. So, my shaila is, am I Yotzei with the Kriyas Shema? Do I have to say Shema again at the end of the service because I said it in the wrong havara? So, some people would say for sure, and there's no harm to say it again, okay? I'm not sure that the Sit Eliezer would say that I had to. So, do you? Do I? That's a good question. Yes. That's a good question. I try to remember to, yes. But I think that Sit Eliezer would uh would ask um would That's the kind of question my wife would ask me. I was like, "I don't So, do Yes, no, no, it's good, it's good, it's good. Keep me on my toes, that's fine. Um so, uh the Sit Eliezer I think will say you do not need to, possibly, but uh but maybe you should. He'd be machmir for Shema, so I say this is kiddushin, this is derabonon, so uh that's a good question. But now let's go to the people who say confidently you may switch. And I want to bring out a few arguments that they bring us to why they felt hold that you may. So, three teshuvos, one from Rav Ouziel, one from Rav Waldenberg, and one from Rav Ovadia Yosef. You can already guess, I think, what Rav Ovadia Yosef is going to say, okay? You'll Yeah, I'll leave you to think about that for the next 10, 15 minutes before we get to his psak. Look at number 10. Let's start from the second paragraph, just at the bottom of the page. Says Rav Ouziel, "I've been been seeing on Ouziel, again, one of the the Rav Ashi Sefardi of the Jewish state. Missi in Academ of the Rabanim So, I've discussed this with many of the Rabanim in our generation. She being She has the Sakina Harifa. Many of them have paskened with a sharp knife on this. And the Knesiyah in America and in America the Ashkenazi. You're not He was very clearly according to these rabbis you're not with the Shmar if you say it in the wrong accent. You have to say it again. They He says, "I think they bring proofs that you can't It's not so easy to to rely on those proofs. They're so sharp, so harif against it. She may Ashkenazi who read They want to say that the Ashkenazi accent is the original I'd never get my Cook said the Ashkenazi accent is superior to the Sefardi accent. Okay. The CD possible time of they passel everybody else. Says, "I'm not so sure about that." Over the page to page five. So, he says as follows. And I've seen what Rav Cook said. The Torah may Rav Avraham Yitzchak Cook. He says, "I've seen Rav Cook She has the nation of the And notwithstanding Rav Cook, he said, "I disagree. You can change." And you look at the reasons that he brings. He brings about seven reasons why people can change. So, go to the next paragraph down. Kashani last mirror I used to think I used to basically think on this my own opinion on this is as follows. He's saying we don't really have the ability to make a definitive ruling on this. We don't have a Sanhedrin. The whole of the law of the shall Knesiyot Knesiyat Rabanim shall be a day We don't have the ability to make a decision that binds everybody. We just lack that. We lack the Sanhedrin. We had cheerim on this. We could have a Sanhedrin. We just can't get our act together. We and and Rav Benzion Uziel is is unhappy about that. Says we don't have that. So I'm not sure you can make a definitive answer. Okay? Therefore, one second. But so I recommend the following hanhaga. People should do whatever the post can think is right. Meaning there are multiple ways of doing it. I'm not passing a halacha, he says. I'm just telling you the reality. How are you going to start switching everybody? How are you going to take a bar mitzvah boy who's learned his seder and they say just switch the havar. It's not even possible. You can't just switch the way you say kaddish ma You can't just switch overnight. Some people are better at this than others. I'm not very good at all. You have this the way you said things as a kid, all the things you remember. You can't just switch things now. All you're going to make is a big ashkenazi mess. Okay? I can hear the loss. Sometimes you pronounce it like this. I say I tell this to Sephardi girls, by the way. A lot of Sephardi girls who've come to my seminars, they they they they now come into Israel for the year. They kind of reclaim their Sephardi pride and they realize that and but through high school they've been browbeaten by Ashkenazim basically in New York to to daven Ashkenazis. They've been in Ashkenazi schools and they've been doing Ashkenazis. And they now say to me, uh many girls have said this, I'd love to go back to my roots and my heritage and switch. Um and my answer to them usually is, well, can you or or is it just going to be difficult to daven? And for most of them it's, well, I just can't daven that way. I've daven this way since I was a kid. I can't just switch to be Edot Hamizrach because now I realize that that's {quotes} and {quotes} more authentic. And usually the answer to these women I've spoken to personally about this is they should continue davening Ashkenazis. And uh it's better for their tefillah. Okay, go to the next paragraph. Well, Maran HaRav Ovadia Yosef didn't borrow. So, from what I said, I think it's clear. Shishino Mitzrayim einu gormim shelo lahotzi et hakorah yedei chovato. It's not going to be a problem that you're not yotzei. You are going to be yotzei. Afilu im nanuach shehu to'eh bahavarato. Even if you think it's a mistake, you'll still be yotzei. Kol hahalacha acharei kavana shaleb. At the end of the day, it's your it's your intention that matters. Uve'or uh uve'or ha'inyan, okay? Hakol korei medakdekli krokei hagavah o uh bo'isa hahavara. Shehu ragil, if you if you are, you should be careful, if you can, to daven in the in the havara that you are regularly used to davening, or shebocher ba. And he gives you that option, or that you choose to switch to. He's very clear, you can choose. You can switch. Just do it right. Yotzei yedei chovato. Hakol adam shehu medakdek bahavarazo o acheret mitach machshava shezu habitu nachon. If you think that's the right uh havara, varatzui bedavar she'eino raui la'onash. La'onash. You You can't turn around and say these people are doing anything wrong. Ela lischut, if they're doing something right, meitav shehem shelo yimna'u laholchin betzimtzum. Okay, they they're doing the best they can. Let Let them Let them do the best they can. And then he brings up the Sefer Chareidim that you said that there are people who swallow their words, and there are people that say it all wrong. And the Sefer Chassidim, sorry, not the Sefer Chareidim. The Sefer Chassidim says, "Allow them to daven, even if they're making a mistake. Even if they're shlichei tzibur, uh kal vachomer that uh if they're individuals, you can't fault them because they've chosen a uh a halacha that they feel is the right one to do in these circumstances. And then in the paragraph that starts the uh an pin uh lavara they he brings the fact that I mentioned to you before, that he feels this does not apply. Do not deviate from the Torah of your mothers. This does not apply in the case where there's no real issue of the heter. It applies in kashrut, it applies in Shabbat, it it doesn't apply here. Halacha change from one to another. You're not dealing with issue of the heter. So, it's a different designation. He disagrees with Rav Kook. And he says, "I don't think you can say that it is a problem because of of minhag. It's not a problem because of minhag. That would apply to strictly halachic issue of the heter areas." Last two paragraphs. The land of Israel says, "So, leave the Jews alone." Let the Jews be in Anam Nevi'im Benei Nevi'im. Hey, this is a very important line. This is taken across from the Psachim, that the Jews have a collective nevu'a. Not not an individual nevu'a. There are lots of Jews that seem to think that they're Nevi'im and they have a right to pronounce on all matters religious, even if they don't know what on earth they're talking about. But the Jews collectively they're Nevi'im. If they're not Nevi'im, they're Benei Nevi'im. What's Benei Nevi'im? Doesn't mean the sons of prophets. Benei Nevi'im are the people who are in prophet school for to to try and learn how to be Nevi'im. That's what the Benei Nevi'im are. So, look, they're trying. They're trying. They haven't got there yet, you know? They're trying to be the magicians, they're kind of squibs, as you like, whatever it is. And they they try they're trying to do it, but they haven't done it yet. So, leave them alone. The I just want to make clear I'm not trying to pasken like you or not like you. I'm just trying to say we can't be definitive. But this one or that one, that ain't going to get you come along. the water blow your say day over the we can't make pronunciations on this etc. But then at the end he says ooh la last paragraph ain't the pointer or tunnel me the doom the whole of us all the Inca but we really need to work this through if we can or the flower the Messiah show coming we need to bring together a a Messiah of coming my little madam who are all experts I think I think to cut shell has a fire the creator we need to have some rabbinic Academy not the Academia I love you read whatever it's called which is very nice but but but it's there to uphold the Hebrew language secular Hebrew language and yet they can't find another name but Academia in order to call the organization which I think is already disappointing that should be a Hebrew word for Academia okay fine so I want to have a rabbinic conference of this she he she And therefore he says I would love that to be one have a rat for everybody I would love it everybody should pronounce the words the same way as everybody else and and but it's not happening So leave it alone in love and I mean hang the name of the name of the name when it happens it happens and we'll all pronounce things the same way it's an interesting question you know when Messiah comes whatever that means how you understand it will there still be Ashkenazim and Sephardim and will I just be now yeah put it leave it all behind and this also is partly a question as well yes But surely you have a sitter that's his knowledge and then you don't be so smart what are you supposed to do Okay so in private you're supposed to down in the way you normally down yes yes if you're going to sing very loudly so you can lead the ball yeah if you're the ball then you'll probably have another shot at ask as well. Okay? But you you should you should say your normal in private avenue say normal avenue. I have two children baruch Hashem bli ayin hara, one of them is nusach Ashkenaz and one of them is nusach Sefard. Why? Because when we made aliyah, my daughter was five. She was in kindergarten. You know, she hadn't really learned any tefillah. So when they pushed a siddur in her hand, of course they pushed she they they I brought where they were educated in religious Zionist uh schools and almost all of them are nusach Sefard. They're all descended from Chassidim. So they pushed a nusach Sefard siddur in her hand and that's how she davens. My son, who was seven, was old enough to say, "Hey, hey, hey, this is not the right nusach. I'm nusach Ashkenaz and proud." So he managed to hold out. Uh so there's another another thing to think about when you're making aliyah. Yes. When you were talking about nusach Yes. say the Kedusha or your own? In other words, I daven Ashkenaz, I go to a Sefard minyan sometimes. So the only thing you have to say in Kedusha is kadosh kadosh kadosh. You can you can do either. You can do either. Because the only thing you need to say in Kedusha is kadosh kadosh kadosh and that's the same for everybody. It's pesukim. Okay? Whether you say na'aritzacha um na'aritzacha, you can Some people don't say that at all. A lot of people don't say na'aritzacha. Na'aritzacha, they just wait to say kadosh kadosh kadosh. So I don't think there's that's not really an essential part of the siddur. Okay, fine. Let's look quickly. We've got just enough time to get through to the Sridei Eish. He brings out some of very interesting points. Okay? So the Sridei Eish Rav Waldenberg. He is talking about a again a bar mitzvah boy who is being pushed to learn to learn the parsha in a different haftarah from that of that he was used to in order to comply and conform with the shul. He makes some new points. Have a look with on page six at the second paragraph. The Zobar amed shaila chamura. He says the first thing I want you to understand is this is not a light question. This is a really serious question. How you speak Hebrew is goes to the root of how you communicate with God. And that's certainly our Kabbalah, but not even it's a very important question. This is not a light question. And there's different opinions on this very important question. And if there are if the shots is used to a certain pronunciation, you can't have a different pronunciation. You can't have a with an Ashkenazi Kehilla. There are people who are lenient. And there are those who are lenient even for the Ba'al Koreh. And as we know, many shuls in in in in Israel today are just they're just my fault. They say, you know, whatever you are is what you daven. And he says at the end of the we've always been like this in Ashkenazi shuls. We don't we're not someone with a Galitzianer accent stands up and davens in a place where oh no, no, we daven here with a North accent. You know, not with a Galitzianer not with a accent. No one's going to pull a off because he speaks like a tailor. Yeah, and he doesn't say Torah or Torah. Or Torah, yeah? So if we're if we if we've been so lenient and you know, broad-minded when it comes to Ashkenazim, like why does that stop? Where Ashkenazim stop? Because they well, they're all Ashkenazi, but they all sound different. He says, but there so there are in London. I have heard that in London I've heard that in London, they are lenient and in Israel, they're not lenient. That's usually the way it goes. But not all we're not always. Look third paragraph. He brings here. We saw this source. Someone from Haifa, someone with Bet She'an says the Gemara may not duchen. They don't differentiate between the aleph and the ayin. We saw that source. The she omerim ya'er Hashem should be with an aleph, ya'er Hashem. With time ya'al Hashem with an ayin which is the wrong word. The says Rashi loshon klalahu. It's a klalah. Okay? And he's not like the safer Hasidim who says, "Okay, fine, leave him alone." No, no. So that he says Rashi says that you can't do. You can't give a klalah to the to the congregation. Someone who pronounces a chet kamo hey, kishagila pasuk "The chiki tila Hashem." This also brought down by Rashi that when you get to the pasuk "Chik chikiti." I wait. I expect Hashem. "Nimtsa machaier v'magid." If you say "V'hechikiti." I I smack Hashem. God forbid. Mashma he says if he sounds from Rashi "Sheurak mibnei tamzeh ein moridim um otam lifnei hateiva." That's the reason they can't daven because what they're going to say is a klalah. They're going to not just say it wrong, but they're going to say something which is offensive. That's why you can't have them as fillup baal itzfillah. "Aval balotam zeh samzeh." He says if it's in clear if it's in you're not going with Rashi. Or you're not Or if you are going with Rashi, I should say. "V'shappe ayin moridim otam." We would put them down. We would send them down to daven. "Af al pi she yesh lahem miftah acher." Meaning nobody suggests he says that the Ashkenazim, the way they pronounce the words, comes out as a curse according to the Sefardim or vice versa. So he says, "So what are you worrying about? It's fine. According to Rashi, the only problem is if they are going to curse." Um and that's not going to happen. And then he says even though we all know he's Ashkenazi that the Sefardi accent is superior. Is superior. So he goes with the Sefardi accent as superior. Says we know that even as an Ashkenazi And he says and in case you turn around and say, "Well, people won't understand what they're saying." The answer is everyone has a Chumash. Everyone has a Siddur. If you don't understand like you said the gentleman said that they sometimes talk so fast you don't understand what they're saying anyway. You have a Siddur you follow on in the Chumash. You follow in the Siddur. It's not a problem. And therefore he comes out and says that you know we can be make on this issue. It's a temporary issue. Look at the last paragraph before we finish with Ovadia. He says go and see what people actually do. Many are lenient people have lots of different people in their community community. Come on and they pronounce things differently and Mayhem. And there's a special reason two reasons not to be with the Bar Mitzvah boy. You're going to teach him that all Jews do is basically make your life hard. And complain. And the family is going to be you're going to have a whole in the run up to the Bar Mitzvah. That's the last thing you want to do. Let me leave you with yourself who comes in weighs in on this. Of course I brought you the last paragraph of a an extremely long you know if we were to learn you be here for 6 hours every day which I would love but I'm not sure they would go for it. And he says at the end he says of number 12. You can not. You can't force people to change. They mean you can't force people to change. Even if the majority go a different way. He said he thinks they should at least go with the majority what the majority wants. And then he says look at this fantastic line. There is no question in my mind. There is no question in my mind that the Sefardim will overcome all and one day everybody will govern like a Sefardi. Okay? Okay. And then in the last paragraph he mentions an important point and he says, "Now I'll tell you something else. If in Israel you govern with an Ashkenazic accent, think of the lost opportunity of kiruv of non-observant Jews who come to shul, regular Israelis who walk in off the beach, off the street, and they come to the shul and they hear this oy oy oy oy oy and they don't know what the heck's going on. They will they'll they'll just walk straight out again and say this is not this is not for me. If they hear something they understand and they understand that they, you know, can be part of it, think of the outreach potential of just being a Sefardi. Think how advantageous that would be. And one day we will all become Sefardi, he said, whether we like it or not. So until that day I will continue to govern Ashkenazic. Next week we'll move into different areas. I feel we haven't looked at two issues for a long time. One is hilchos Shabbos, which I feel we've neglected for a bit, and the other is medical ethical issues. So maybe we'll look into some of those and pick it up from there. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Amen.