Am Yisrael At War Part 1: Redeeming Hostages in Exchange for Terrorists by Rabbi Anthony Manning

hi good morning everybody Welcome to a uh A New Beginning batem um it's very out of sync for me to be here on a Monday for the last seven years or so I've been here on a Wednesday um and uh this is the beginning of a a new launch of different programming by the OU it should be batem um very much I was very paranoid about not coming in this morning because it's not Wednesday um I put notes all around my house saying don't forget to go to the OU because it's not Wednesday it's Monday and uh they worked which is great I also just got back from America last Friday so I'm not sure exactly which time zone I'm in um but uh at least I'm with you which is the main thing if I could just uh mention some housekeeping rules uh we have a minhag in uh in the Sher we've been doing it for 7 years which is every Wednesday now Monday I say could everybody please turn off their phones and every week everybody does apart from one person whose phone rings and it's always a different person so if you might be that person then please also turn off your phones um which is uh I think uh will will save us from musical interruptions now this is a um a topic that a few of you requested Simon requested it others requested it I must tell you I was putting off doing this topic because I was hoping that it wouldn't be relevant um but it is still relevant um and it is a fascinating topic it will take us three shm to look at it properly so I would ask you to just you know keep Pace with what we're doing um you may have questions which are burning questions but they may be questions that I will deal with next week um I will give you a brief overview of how I want to look at the topic um it's a very sensitive topic I was a little nervous whether to deal with it at all but I I think that there are three at least three good reasons for talking about this issue the first and perhaps most important of all is so that we keep the connection in our minds with the hostages live and fresh that we shouldn't for a minute stop davening that they should be released by ISAT hasem very soon and in good health um that we should do everything we can to promote the best solution that there can be whatever that is um and uh therefore I'm I'm I think that we should preface everything we're saying with that that that art fillers are enormously enormously powerful and we talked about that during theim and therefore that's one reason that I want to do that and it should be um a Tois for that the second reason is tal is an enormous for the Jewish people and Talma of of um of a something which is relevant at the time is even more interesting and even more pressing and even more uh engag aging even though it's a very sad thing we have to talk about it but nevertheless please God the of should be a for the hostages and for the success of all the soldiers um and that is certainly nothing to be underestimated um and uh and the third thing really is that I think that there are going to be some uh fascinating issues which we maybe haven't thought of before um on this particular topic uh it will take us round all sorts of different areas of um I I can tell you now we are not going to reach a clear conclusion uh in case you thought that we were um none of the people well I can't speak for you I bashem I'm not responsible for making any of the unbelievably difficult decisions that need to be made um I think we should not forget to Daven very hard for the people in government and the generals of the army who are the people who have the unthinkable and unspeakable decisions to make so they need Asus as well um I'm not speaking for you maybe there's someone in this room who has a secret connection with someone and if so then that's great um but I think it's important for us as well we learn values from halaka at least R Sol's approach and that of many others is that halaka is the Bedrock of Jewish values and therefore we ourselves are discussing this issue with our families around our shabas tables maybe even putting pressure on lawmakers and people in government to reach certain conclusions it's good for us to see the different factors even if we won't come to a clear conclusion it's good for us to weigh the halakic factors and therefore I think we're going to learn a lot from this topic okay so let's get into it we've got a lot to do and as I say this is part one of beatm three parts for the first 35 years or so of the Israeli government since 1948 their official policy was we do not negotiate at all with terrorists and that is in theory the policy of the American government the most western governments and there are reasons for that which we'll maybe discuss um next week however that began to change the first major challenge to that policy was actually the anbi uh kidnapping which we're not going to talk about this week even though our source sheets going to take us through tragically kidnapping Jewish people is not a new uh event it's something which reverberates through our entire history from Tanakh through the gamorra um through the Middle Ages through the modern period uh Rabbi wine uh he live and be well has two it says there are two themes for Jewish history the First theme is that Jewish history repeats itself and the second constant theme is that in every generation people say well yes that was true until now but it won't happen again this time they are the two constant themes so our sources are replete with uh examples of kidnapping issues which we'll talk about as well but the Israeli government's policy until anbi was that we will not negotiate with terrorists next week we will look in detail at the rinic uh committee stroke conclave whatever we want to call them conclave sounds it's touched on the Catholic side but a group of very eminent rabbis that were gathered together by Yak Rabin in 1976 to discuss whether they should indeed be negotiating with the terrorists now you and I know the ending of that uh episode which was a very positive ending although there was loss of life of course um but we'll deal with that next week so anbi didn't become a a really a crucial issue because in the end they rescued the hostages but already in the 1980s in 8283 and I've brought you a few examples here at the beginning in English there were uh uh unfortunately in the first Lebanon war there were hostages which were captured and in 1985 under the gibil agreement there was an agreement that the Israeli government released 1,150 prisoners this was in 85 um in exchange for the three Israeli captives captured during the first Lebanon war now many of those people people who were released went on to be ring leaders in the first intifa um RAV goren at the time maybe we'll have a chance to look at his letter was very against this deal and said that it would lead to Future consequences which were very undesirable Rim David Hali the chief Rabbi of Tel Aviv at the time was in favor of this deal halak we'll get a chance to look at a little bit of those arguments not today and then RAV goren kind of changed his mind a little bit and said well yes that's interesting you know when when you look at it in that perspective maybe there is more to say but that was perhaps one of the first major episodes um in October 2000 uh the Hezbollah captured uh IDF soldiers in the Lebanon area uh and there was a prisoner swap again in 2004 they handed over militants they handed over information there was the whole elhan and tan bam Affair which raises questions we will do with today which they found out that tanam actually had been kidnapped as part of a trip that he made to do an illegal drug deal so the question is do we redeem captives when to some degree they've got themselves into the problem of captivity obviously that's not the case that we're dealing with today but that's an interesting question as well um a little bit later still the second Lebanon war as you will probably remember the second Lebanon war was triggered by the capture of two IDE of soldiers that I've mentioned here in little number three um and there was uh again uh a deal to uh release a number of host terrorists in exchange for even the bodies uh being to Israel the most recent that I put in little number four here was of course the IDF Soldier gilad Shalit um I feel a little bit bad for him and his family in everything that's going on at the moment I don't know how they're dealing with this um whe whether or not we agree or don't agree with what was done then uh it's certainly not his responsibility and it's certainly not his family's responsibility uh but as we will remember um over a thousand Palestinian um and Israeli Arab terrorists and prisoners were released um in order to get gillad shal back and as we know to our great uh sadness many of these people are the ring leaders of what's happening right now okay exactly um and therefore where does that leave us Well we I'm sure we have lots of opinions and we have lots of uh stron held views um but let's look at some of the sources that deal with the different ideas behind whether we do and how we do deal with these situations so let's start with tanak it's important to start with tanak ultimately that's where everything starts and there are a number of key hostage situations in Tanakh let's start with the first one lot was captured and number one he decided on a military solution even though he was fighting against the Four Kings who were the superpowers of the Middle East he uh he aroused all of his uh students he got them up he mobilized them I think you'd say 3 18 of them and they chased the Army and he fell on the Army in the night and he he beat them and he chased them away Damas all the way up to Damascus he took all of The Spoils of the war that's a different question maybe in the third sh we'll talk about what are the rules in of War are there of War what is acceptable do the do the ends justify the means that's a very important question is our is our focus on what we're trying to achieve it doesn't matter how we do it or are there rules that are the limits we'll we'll talk about that not today I keep telling you what we're not going to do today but we will do lots today okay and they CH he chased them all the way to Damascus for he took his he rescued lot as well and he got him back so there is a military rescue um organized by the first Jew or at least the first Proto Jew Arin was as Jewish as anyone had been up till then um and it was a military rescue for one for one or maybe his family as well I suppose was there for one family uh we see in number two perhaps a lesser known episode um sorry that's number three number two first we'll get to uh Yakov and his sons with SH and this has lots of very powerful residences um this is a very well-known episode number twoim if you remember the story you know the story well Dena was kidnapped and she was raped and abused um and then they tried to do some kind of deal with with the Jewish people to give her back or to keep her or to marry her uh and of course shim and Ley secretly launched a military campaign and slaughtered the people of Shem and got their sister back so Yakov was very critical what will the nonu say how come we do this look at the look at the public opinion it's very interesting Yakov is already telling us that this was a concern we're a small nation in a big world we cannot afford to just do whatever we want maybe you know Putin is the president of one of the biggest countries in the world can just do whatever he likes and ultimately nobody can do anything about it we're not that we're not those people says yov we have to think about the longer term geopolitical consequences I'm living as a small number amongst all of these nations thei they're going to come at me they're going to take me to the European core the human rights Court they're going to do things and they're going to they're going to destroy me and everything that I've built so far will be destroyed how can you do that to which of course the sons ask answer rather what do you want us to do and rash said Rashi says h means Hef what Jewish blood should be hefa Jews should be able to be kidnapped and and abused and raped and and we don't do anything about it how can that be that can't be there has to be a response and Yakov we don't see who won that answer that conversation and if you look in the MIM different people say different things the rambam says that they were justified in doing what they did the ramban says it's not so clear yob criticizes them and again in that we read just a couple of weeks ago he curses them basically for what they did so who was right should they have done it shouldn't they have done it see you see here the most fascinating presentation in the earliest time of the Jewish people that it's not clear what you do can you just react or how can you not react which is I think really fascinating um number three is a lesser known source inid which I'm not going to go to in in detail the the Jewish people were in the ne and the king of AR heard that the Jews were coming Chevy and he attacked them and he took a Chevy a captive a hostage Rashi says just one young woman who was a she was a lonly servant slave woman that they had and that's the only person they took nevertheless the Jewish people said you don't take Jews there are consequences one person doesn't matter one person is one person and the Jewish people together made a vow if we win against this people we will we will destroy their cities or we'll put them make them and we'll give them to the mikdash whatever that means at the time God listened so again the Jewish people launched a military strike against hostage takers for one person and an unimportant quotes unques person there's no unimportant people in the Jewish people even a sh um who was taken captive and number four which I I won't go through in detail cuz we don't have enough time but it's a famous episode of the end of Alf where David and his men are busy attacking the Pim and amim and theim launch a raid on sag where the women and the children were waiting for the Jewish soldiers to come back maybe we just read a few when his people when David and his army came back toag Source number four on the third day the had gone across the they came to and they destroyed they burnt it all down and they taken Ransom captive the women and this is course classic amalik which is what we see in our own dates we find amalik takes the defenseless the children the women the people who are not able to fight back mikad the the lowly uh women if you like of the society and the great women will see who they were is they didn't kill anybody they just took them away and they' taken them to to their place where they were and this is actually fascinating David and his men came back they they see this sight of immense destruction then and the women their wives and their children had been taken hostage what was the first reaction shock and and mourning and we all remember this this like disbelief how could this have happened they cried until they couldn't cry anymore they were so distressed by what had happened they even took away David's Queens well he wasn't yet the king but was still the King David's wives David was incredibly personally destroyed by this and the people wanted to to Stone David because of course the first reaction is how could our leaders allow this to happen how could you let this happen David you're Mr Security on you that's your thing and and yet you've led us down so again we see nothing is new and David in the end he consults theur the T and and they said you have to go and you'll rescue them and they managed to get them back that was a successful uh raid uh back to bring the uh hostages back but again it's just so evocative the tanak we're living through tanak we really I really feel that many people feel that another time I'll tell you I've just spent a few weeks in America I don't have time to talk about it now but one of the abonim in America um next week maybe okay I won't have time next week either um one of the rabbonim in America I mean I've heard so many anecdotal stories of different people um being so affected uh distant people from the Jewish communities in so many ways which again I don't have time to talk about now but what there we are that was the one okay now we're Yota we're y don't worry about it it's fine it's fine it's fine someone will help you kind of turn it off we'll be all right um uh the one of the rabim there said to me the Jewish people in Israel is having a 1973 moment of the yam Kiper War which I must confess I was too young to remember the oner war sorry um but he said the Jews of America are having a 1967 moment not that they're happy but that they're suddenly stirred up there's a wave of recognition that they are part of the Jewish people people and and that that is actually fascinating what's going on right now we need to try and work on how to actually connect with those people that's a different story um hostage taking therefore is something which is sadly an awful part of our history and it's the most awful thing imaginable it's the most immense tragedy you've had it's okay no no maybe it's fine maybe someone can help you no give it give it to someone there and they'll I I also don't know how to do things on my phone it's fine there'll be a there'll be a button somewhere you can can you can press down the the the the give it to someone under 40 or 30 and they'll they'll they'll twiddle with it immediately okay four 14 even better if you can find someone under 14 even better um hostage taking is you know we had some comments from you know people I mean my wife was dealing with some of the families at the beginning of the war because she's in media and she was connecting them to to to media in Huds lits and which was very painful for her um some people were saying things like you know I thought that my child had been taken coost hostage but then I realized they'd been killed and that's a relief on some level there was a f father that said that then he found that his daughter had actually been taken a hostage and bar she was released but this this feeling is is is is there a fate worse than death it's like it's a terrible thing to discuss but the gamorra talks about this as well uh in number five y when Y is talking to the people says this is what what God told me even if Moshe and were to get up in front of me right now this the end of the first temple there's nothing I can do for these people they're finished they're gone there's nothing they can they can do to come back send them send them away from me let them go where they going to go they're going to be exiled where they're going to go when you say where are we going to go this is country you should say to them whoever's going to die you're going to die anyone who's going to be killed in battle is going to be killed whoever is going to starve or die in the pestilence they're going to die like that whoever is going to be is going to be taken hostage what is this this list death and the sword and and hunger and hostage taking look at the gar number six where did the rabbis get the idea the P releasing hostages redeeming hostages is the greatest of MIT he says this is where we get it from as it says the as you go through thisk each one is worse than the last one and the worst of all Chevy the Chevy is the worst of all of them because it includes all of these terrible things it includes death and pestilence and sickness and all therefore there's no question that we regard the the the prospect of Hostage taking as the worst of all tragedies that we could imagine and we have an immense Mitzvah to do what can be done in order to get the hostages back look at the rambam number sevening hostages comes even before um the poor before giving them clothes before giving them money there is no Mitzvah as great as Pim and he gives a whole list now of Mitzvah that you fulfill with P because the people who are captive are starving the and they're thirsty and they lack basic facilities and clothing and we'll see this is very important they are inherently in life-threatening danger as a hostage and we'll see that there's a debate about this soon and we'll see what kind of hostages are they talking about one of the things that that has let out now is one of the questions we're going to have to ask next week is whether any of these sources are relevant to us today which we'll go through or are they talking about a different reality it's a major mistake to learn how sources and and assume that the realities they're dealing with are the same you need to know the you need to know the reality to know whether the sources are the same so we'll see is our hostage situation the same as the one that they're talking about he says the ram carry on if you ignore the hostages from from redeeming them you are breaking all of the following Vitz don't let your heart be cruel and your hand be close don't stand by while your friend is suffering don't let the non-jews work the Jews that they've captured in front of your eyes and not do anything about it you have to do the you're break breaking the Mitzvah of opening your hand to save them to save your brother to make him live and if that's not all enough he throws in a from save those who have been captured from death and many similar things he said it like three times there's no greater MIT from the P just in case you thought there was any possibility of anything otherwise and if you look in the gamar here you'll see the gamar number eight again very um relevant and resonant to our timesi says rebi I some of the uh Gus say is rebi IM was captured by Bandits to a place where was a very dangerous place so Rabon heard about this he said let them make you know uh shrouds for him basically you know NE he's dead already what can I do he was captured by those people forget about it there nothing I can doeses CH ran says no you can't think that you can't say that Rim Ben loes also called R Lish is a very interesting character in his early life before he became a big he was a strong man now some people say he was a bandit I heard rakov midan say he was like a freedom fighter against the Romans like a Jewish vigilante jdl kind of guy and and and he said I'm not I'm not hearing that you're going to give up on him I'm going if I'm going to kill or be killed I'm going to go there raid and get him back I'm going to go back and take him by force I'm not giving up on a hostage AEL he went and in the end he did a deal with the hostage takers V and they released him meaning one group one Rabbi was prepared to give up and the other Rabbi said no you can't give up we have to do what we can we have to try and release them by force maybe that will mean the force itself will lead to a deal really interesting source that by attacking them that made it more likely that they would be able to do a deal because of the force and again who's going to make those kind of SAS who's going to make those not in their mind if we do this if we kill the guy in Lebanon it's more likely there'll be a deal or it's less likely there'll be a deal who knows I don't know but you see from this source that ra Lish says look you know I feel that in this situation force is needed in order to to to provoke a deal you had a question yes death this is talking about hostages not prisoners pris in English prisoners sounds like you're in prison for a good reason you stole money and we'll we'll talk about that I understand you're right 100% correct I don't know whether there I don't know whether there was a concept of prisoners of War before the 20th century we now have a Geneva Convention there are prisoners of war and there are certain rules I I I think up until the 20th century prisoners and hostages in those days were pretty much the same thing but still there were prisoners who were in life Danger and there are prisoners who are not and we'll talk about that there's a Shila that came up we'll see R obach talks about it if a Jewish man is put in prison for theft is there aid for a pidu to get him out of an American jail and R says like what are you talking about like they're not just happing people at random and and holding them to Ransom he's in jail because he stole money maybe in jail he learn not to be a thief we should use public money to get him out of jail so clearly we're not talking about those people but uh it it is a good question rabak says a fascinating thing in number nine and then we'll get into some of the limitations on this but just to finish on how important it is matu says there is a Mitzvah which is included if you like in generally in St but it's even greater than ster this is redeeming hostages I want to give you a he says I want to suggest because of this Mitzvah and how great it is God introduced himself and praised himself with this Mitzvah in the Ten Commandments what did God say I am your God who took you out of Egypt okay now there's a lot you can say about this the has an entire hashkafic development that why is God introduced as God of history and not the god of creation there's a lot of philosophical points to be made but is not making a philosophical point he wanted to mention the God says I just rescued 600,000 that's how I want to be known that's how want I want you to know me and ends and God else command we have to our value systems have to be a copy of the way we perceive God acts in the world it's very famous M just we see God is merciful and we see them people you copycat that behavior so here just as we see that God is the the the the of all redeem 600,000 people so you have to be like that as well by the way just in Brackets uh ra solic used to okay but maybe you can do Miracles as well but I understand but that's for 600,000 we don't have to get 600,000 now we have to get a few hundred out but mentions this it's nothing to do with this but I can't resist it he says God always introduces God as unique there is none other like God there is nothing in the universe that even compares to God and therefore just as God is unique you have a you have to be unique okay because that is the Mitzvah of of of of going in the ways of God okay this is all very well there is a massive Mitzvah the greatest of all Mitzvah but there are limitations let's have a look number 10 says the Mish you can't you're not allowed to redeem captives for more than their worth that's a very cryptic phrase how much how much is are people worth we'll see some interesting chers on that coming up meaning what's t meaning there's a longer term picture that you have to be aware of yes on the one hand you have a captive and their price is like without value without without limit they're human life and you have a massive MIT but there's a longer term concern of TI on it's going to there's going to be consequences which are unwanted in the intermediate or longer terms will the gamor will debate what those consequences are that's TI the we're less focused on this right now but we will come back to it you can't break out by force captives Island because that will also be bad in the long term and not just bad in the long term it'll be bad for whoever's left if you break out three of The Five Guys they're going to crack down on the other two and it's going to be worse for them so you see here the mission introduces limits you can't just go in and redeem captives because of your sense of enormous for the cses in the Mitzvah of it so the G asks what is this we're really dealing with the first one of the issue of pay more than the value number 11 they asked this this longer term um agenda that we're worried about is it because we're worried about the the the pressure on the community meaning what if you keep having to raise money for another pigon and another pigeon and people have to give more money and more money and more money you're going to impoverish the community you can't do that you have to think of the cloud as well as this poor soul Who's let me just go on a littleit because I don't have a lot of time you have to think of that or or maybe or maybe the problem is not the community the problem is that if we pay for a hostage too much money that will encourage more hostage taking okay maybe that's the concern Rashi number 12 says the nafam Min is if they've got a rich relative that wants to redeem them then it's not on the Public's funds so then we're not concerned about pressure on financial pressure on the public but we are still concerned about the long-term consequences okay so the rambam actually and pretty much all the MIM pick the first not the second reason sorry the second not the first reason excuse me still a bit jetlagged the the the concern of pidan shum is the concern that they will come to take more captives look at number 13 says the rambam again we will come back to what that means more than their value we do not redeem captiv for more than their value what is the so we don't encourage more hostage taking he goes we don't break out because it'll be bad on the other one so the reason seems to be that we do not want to encourage future hostage taking go over the page to page four the rules this way says number 14 call Reger any minute any moment that we delay in trying to get this the hostage hostages out whatever we can you know bring it forward if we delay it it's as if we've murdered them very very very very severe we cannot delay it however then he but we can't pay too much like we saw in the rambam the people people shouldn't be encouraged future hostage taking but a person can pay whatever they like to redeem themselves if it's just about you and your own money that's okay so too if a has been captured or even a young promising potential and they could turn into a great person and then we pay a fortune to get them back we'll see what that means coming up right now so what are the rules the says do whatever you can to get the hostage out don't pay too much doesn't Define what that is because that would encourage future hostage taking and the two exceptions seem to be you can get yourself out of jail if you've got the money that's fine because that's kind of a personal issue and if there's a then we can do whatever we need to get them out of uh captivity now in a moment we're going to talk about RAV hutner and when RAV hutner was captured in 1970 by Palestinian terrorists and we'll see what what what happened there but first let's see a gamorra that seems to be a contradiction to that look at number 15 we just said you're not allowed to pay too much we not allowed to pay too much tan RAB says number 15 this is one of the garas that we read often people read on it's one of the garas that deals withu who is the famous RAB Yeshua student of RAB wrot me he went this was postan this was I'd say around the year 100 CE okay so it's into the period after the period of Destruction he went to Rome they said to him there's a there's a Jewish child who's in jail here and what was the nature of this child and he was a very attractive little boy young man maybe young man which mean he was also in danger of being abused sexually abused in prison which was another Factor as to why he wanted to get this uh this child or this young man out Rua got went to the prison and he kind of surreptitiously without getting the guards to realize what he was doing quoted the beginning of a posk that's what you do if you're trying to work out who's inside do they know the end of the PK or do they not know the end of the PK he wants to see who is this kid so he says who has given yov up to spoil the and over to robbers that's the beginning of and the young man comes back with the end of theu we we were sinned against Hashem the and they didn't walk in his ways they didn't walk in his ways didn't listen to his Torah he says oh this is a young in the making he knows I am confident this kid is going to be a major figure for the Jewish people and he takes an oath I am not going to leave here until I get him out whatever they ask I'm going to pay whatever they ask and what happened they said and he tack paid a fortune to get this kid out the and it wasn't very long at is until he became a great poo who did this kid become rebi Ismael Ben Elisha he was the famous rebbi Ishmael the kind of partner and sparring partner of RAB AA in in Hala so so what's going on here this is an important story where somebody saw a kid in prison paid a fortune to get him out what happened to the rule that you're not allowed to pay too much money about wasn't a that he wasn't a what a maid meaning it wasn't a woman ah okay but he wasn't a he was a kid he was a Jewish kid that had been captured um tophus gives three reasons why this is an exception and they become very important to us have a look in number 16 toas comes along and says call he paid a fortune to get this captive back why and he says an interesting an unusual thing s when there is a danger to the host's life then you pray whatever it makes whatever it takes if they're in life-threatening danger so that's why they paid more well that's a bit of a problem why is it a problem because every hostage is in life-threatening danger that's the whole nature of being a hostage isn't that what the rambam said the nature of being a hostage is that you're in danger of immediate death so what does he mean this was this boy was in more danger we'll talk about that orami or en alternatively okay that's the exception you could see this kid was going to be the most fantastic you can't live without them they're worth a Fortune of money interesting they describing physically as well but the to doesn't mention that because we didn't differentiate in this between it it seems to be because it was mentioned in the gamar number 17 tophus gives a third reason what are the first two again either that we uh he was in life-threatening Danger so it was different or it was for a Time says the to at the end um at the end of the end number 17 because it was such a time of the consideration maybe they'll take more hostages in future was not relevant why not what was the nature ofan so let's just dwell on that for a second why might that be an exception when there's a a time of quban you can pay anything you need to pay so there's a few reasons that I've seen given one reason is because it's a time ofan how worse can it get it's the whole thing is a disaster think about in the middle of the of of the Holocaust like whatever you do whatever you do it's not going to make it worse it can't get any worse it's as bad as it can be that could be one answer therefore the whole long-term implications argument is just not relevant right now ra Asha gives another suggested reason which I think is his when he talks about this he says CU maybe in a time of the people need more there needs to be a morale boost you can't have these people stuck in prison when everybody is worried about them Etc because it's such a disastrous time for the Jewish people you need to go that extra mile to raise the morale of the people interesting that maybe because it's aan um but what about this life-threatening situation most pokim reject this and say it's just not relevant we'll see in a minute a very interesting Chua um because every hostage is in a life-threatening situation um and let me get you to uh the case of RAV hutner I put at the bottom of page four in 1970 you probably remember this again I was only a little Nipper at the time um the uh R hutner was hijacked his plane was hijacked and Reed roted to Jordan R hutner was on the plane his wife and his daughter-in-law his daughter and his son-in-law Rabbi David was on the plane um and the terrorist let all the Jews go and they said basically they're going to kill all the Jews and the question is what to do about it so go over to page five you'll see there was an interesting debate at the time RAV hutna was taken away they realized who he was and held in a private isolated location and everybody was daving to get him out eventually he was reunited with the other hostages and eventually they were released at the time by the way Jordan used this because the plane landed in Jordan Jordan was incensed and King Hussein uh took that opportunity to kill as many of the Palestinians as he could in Jordan black uh September and that's when yasa Arafat ended up going to Lebanon which of course was the cause for the later Lebanon war Etc as well um at the time the the poim debated what should we do rakov kineski was asked about this they said look raav hutna he surely is the exception he's one of the gor we have to pay whatever it takes to get out RAV hutner and rakov kineski said no R mha Feinstein I gave you the letter I give you the original and a translation said yeah we have to do a deal we have to do a deal rakov Kami says no we're not doing no deals he was against it for a few reasons first of all he said um the Jewish people is a war this is a very important factor which we'll come back to next time in the time after this is not talking about a private hostage taking situation which in for most of Jewish history was for the purpose of money they wanted money the more the more people they took the more money they got they were only interested in the money which is by the way why you can see that in certain hostage situations there was not such a danger to life because the daa needed to keep them alive to get the money so rakov he says no this is not our situation now these people are taking hostages because they're at war with the state of Israel it's a completely different situation and the normal rules don't apply we'll see that in in more detail he also felt that it was a a big it would be a bigem to get ra hutner out and to not get anyone else out and he was and he was worried about that so he told them under no circumstances R mosha FY wrote to Gold Maya and and in the end again there was a happy resolution to that and you you probably remember the whole story and when R hutner came home etc etc did he get out how did he get out they they released him they released they released him um I don't know all the details of how how why they relas St ran on to the they ran did they did they do that then I don't think they did that then that was anbi we'll get to anbi next week with with with in the case of RAV hutner they actually released the hostages we'll we'll end the share in 15 minutes with a thought that RAV hoodner had while he was a hostage but you see that the idea of redemption of hostages when their lives are in danger is a complicated one a complicated one I brought you some sources I'm not going to in great detail but um just look at 19 for a second it's okay don't worry about it they they they they boo they booby trap the phone so you can't turn them off so okay first of all first of all the ramban let's look at number 19 let's go through some of these sources quickly we're not going to look read every word the ra the ramban says okay tophus mentions this if the life is in danger so it can't be because every hostage life is in danger that's what they say he says there um and he says the Situation's different why because we can't live without a if it's a god God hador it's the God hador you know it's worth all that money but a normal life threatening situation well that's everybody and so to the m ramlin i want to look in a little bit more detail about ramlin because it's a fascinating shua which has its ironic side as well look at number 20 with me says the maram Lublin who's the maram Lublin the maram Lublin was RA WF benalia of Lublin he lived in Poland in the 16th century there was a story there was a case in his time of a young boy he was captured by the Arabs and they claimed that he' had sexual relations with an Arab woman which was prohibited okay Jewish boy and they wanted to kill him or to convert him to Islam which makes it okay in some way okay does the the C have an obligation do they have an obligation to get this kid out now again this kid got himself into the trouble he ended up running off with an Arab girl and now the Arabs caught him so what does he say here and is it even sorry I missed the line he was guilty he got himself into the trouble he couldn't resist the girl he knew the consequences he he slept with the girl anyway if we if we do have to get him out do we have to pay extra to get him out can we overpay to get him out what what does it mean what he's worth so look at the says I think it's absolutely clear he says of course we have to try and get this kid out it doesn't matter the kid made a stupid mistake he doesn't deserve to be killed for it we all make mistakes he got himself into trouble of course we have to redeem him look under the line that says Chua nearly POS it's equally clear but we mustn't overpay for the kid I don't know why you would even think that you have to overpay for this guy there's no difference there's no difference that he's in life D threatening danger he rejects that idea he's not a he's a silly kid who ran off with a with a with an Arab girl and he brings a proof from a famous case before of the Mari vile which is not comical but you'll see why why why it's interesting on the second he brings a case from the maral who lived in Europe beforehand Ezra this is fellow called Aram Ezra and his wife and his granddaughter I think it turns out was was kidnapped and held hostage and the sultan or the the head of the Town held them for ransom one hard you know one strong strong ruler held them and he also wanted to convert the the girl to Islam and what happened the husband couldn't afford to redeem his wife this guy rid s came in as a as a sort of philanthropist and paid out the money to redeem uh this fellow's wife and granddaughter but at El and he paid a th000 gold coins and what happened next v i AB Ezra and this abam Ezra was then asked to pay the money back David the David Senter said I've redeemed your wife and your granddaughter I paid a th000 gold coins for them you we can work out a payment plan but you you you need to give me the money back and the husband took him to Court cuz he said you paid too much money for my wife wow he had two esss he says number one you pay too much and number two why so quick we could have done a better deal with the government she was she was okay you know you so he he took him to Bas in saying I don't owe you the money because you overpaid for my wife you can't make this stuff up okay the Royal he didn't want to pay he claimed you paid over the odds for my wife and what's interesting he says in the end that the Mari wild threw him out of court and said how disgusting of course you have to pay for your wife but one of the things he didn't say and this is when you know chers are brilliant when it's not that they analyze what the was said but what wasn't said at no point did he turn around to the guy and say well you're allowed to overpay if the person's in danger he never said that meaning you you're not allowed to overpay even if the person's in danger here of course you have to pay back cuz it's your wife whatever but he never said that and therefore he said you see from here that this idea that if the person's in danger he said is rejected and I brought you 21 I'm not getting into this in detail there's um the pis Chua brings down different people one side and the other side whether this danger to life issue is relevant bottom line most postum hold that the issue of danger to life is not a decisive Factor when it comes to paying over the odds because s all hostages to some degree or other are in Mortal danger you can look at the the back and forth on that uh later on I brought you the issue of the maram of Rottenberg the maram of Rottenberg is a very famous case uh he was the leader of uh the German jury in the late 1200s and he was taken captive um I think by King Rudolph and he was uh held for ransom uh in a uh in a castle uh in enim which is a little village now on the German French border in alsas and uh the uh the king requested an enormous Ransom to get the maram of rotenberg back so you'll say well of course it's m because he's a tam how can you get more of a tamen case than this and they raised an enormous Ransom to get him back and he refused he did not let them pay the ransom and he died he died of old age he didn't die of mistreatment I imagine it didn't do him any good to be uh in the castle but he died eventually and they wouldn't even release his body and the famous situation is Alexander wimon later paid money to get his body back and The Story Goes that the maral the mar appeared to him in a dream and said you can have two rewards either you can have a riches for you and your family for all the generations or you can be with me in ol Haba so so he took ol Haba because you never know whether money's good for your kids or not good for your kids okay it could go either way buta sounds like a good deal and in the end he's buried they're buried together if you go to the to the cemetery in vers you were there you see the maram of Rottenberg and vimon is is buried there so the question is why didn't he allow them to pay the ransom so just go over the page I know we're flipping around just go over the page I brought you the yamel schlomo the yam schlomo says a very interesting thing he says the reason he did he didn't let them pay over the odds is because he realized that they didn't know exactly who he was and if they paid so much money they would become aware wow what do we got here you take one of their gim and it's Mega buck so he realized they wanted to kidnap other s senior post gim the rash who was the student of the mar the ram of rotenberg escaped he actually made it to uh to Spain and became the ra of Toledo which was interesting you had an ashkanazi RAV who became the rav of Toledo which is a whole different story um but the RAM says the the says he wouldn't let them pay because he didn't want to encourage they were just going to take more gim and it was going to be worse in the long term for the Torah of the Jewish people um and therefore he says that was the answer of the maram of Rottenberg case however he brings in 23 and also the RAS in 24 and says at the end of the day however let's look at the maral in 23 he was in Poland in the 1600s and people are very generous even though there's a that you're not meant to overpay you can't hold Jews back because when there's a hostage situation their their their hearts are impossible to you can't tell people that we can't redeem these hostages it's very interesting so people redeem even for over the odds there was a situation in turkey and people were paying more and more and more and more money money for hostages they were they didn't care how much money was God should give them their place is surely in they had all the right intentions um and he said at the end of the day we're also we we we're not a big people we can't afford to lose anybody if they've got hostages these are all precious Jews we're a small community and every Jew counts and therefore we have to get as many people back as we can get and therefore even though there is this General principle we don't overpay Jews have not stuck to that over the years the radbas in number 24 I'll summarize what he says he says how much how much is called the worth of a person so it says the worth of a person is what non-jews would pay to get their hostages back what would non-jews give to get their own hostages back he says and even though it's not the same and he br brings the because the non-jewish hostage is a big star of people and the Jews and neb like you know schl is like very uh little you know and you you would have thought that this was worth much more than this one it doesn't matter the going rate is whatever non-jews would pay however he says nobody sticks to that because the Jews have incredible um urge to to redeem hostages and look at the last paragraph the of number and even though there's a rule that we don't redeem captures more than they Earth maybe they would exception in this situation and since you never know let the Jewish people be let them let them have this enormous M of they get so happy happy when the hostages released and surely they will get a great reward for wanting to get these hostages back so what do we see so far what's the story so far let's summarize and end with one thing there's an enormous mum hostages however there's a tick on allam imperative not to overpay for the hostages what does overpay mean overpay means more than other people would pay for their hostages and what's the reason for that because we don't want to includ encourage hostage taking are there exceptions one exception is although we saw with the maram of rotenberg and with RAV hutner it doesn't always work that way one exception might be well what how much worse could it get and one exception might be when the when the hostage is in life-threatening data although most pokim rejected that because they said look at the end of the day all hostages are in life-threatening data that's not relevant however not withstanding that restriction that that ceiling we see that Jewish Community after Jewish Community could not hold themselves back from campaigning to redeem their hostages and what I find this so interesting and inspiring that we see this today we see the people on the one hand on the other hand how can we yes how can we know Etc what we have not discussed yet which we'll discuss next week is how does any of this work when the price the terrorists are demanding is not money but is the release of other terrorists how do you weigh that up now if you start saying well what would non-jewish governments how many terrorists would they release to get people back none is the answer in fact there are even situations where non-jewish governments will even send their own soldiers in to kill the hostage of their hostage because they reckon a Dead Soldier is much less damage than a hostage Soldier which we couldn't even think of doing that like on purpose NE it's like in the In The Heat Of War things happen that we don't want to happen but how can you how can you compare the Jewish government you give away a thousand hostages thousand terrorists sorry for a hostage Etc so we need to talk about that next week because there there is what to say about that and it and it doesn't necessarily go with these sources but I wanted to finish just with one thought which is it's one minute to go till quarter past 11 just look at the last page RAV hutner was asked by his son-in-law Rabbi David what was he thinking when he was all alone taken aside as a hostage separate from all the other people who were kidnapped on the plane and RAV hutner answered he was thinking of a Rashi in yamus da that's what he was thinking what was the Rashi he was thinking of so look at the gar number 25 T if a g if a non-jew wants to come and convert to Judaism we say to them why on Earth would you want to join the Jewish people don't you know how the situation of the Jewish people is today how Under Pressure we are persecuted anti-Semitism the what troubles we have as Jews you want to be Jewish is there anything wrong with you why would you want to be Jewish the if the nju says I do know the die and I'm not even worth that then we say oh you're the real deal what does he mean I'm not worth that Rashi says in number 26 I'm not even worthy of being persecuted as a Jew it's a to be a Jew even if you're persecuted as a Jew Hali that I had the to be persecuted because I'm Jewish it's for me me would be an honor to be persecuted as a Jew says R hutner that's what I was thinking of this Rashi when I was sitting there all on my own like I have the to be Jewish even in this situation it's a merit okay rautner could think those things and now you know what R hutner was thinking on the plane um but this we we are we are only just at the beginning of this journey next week we need to take it into the terrorists for hostage situation which is which in invoke a whole bunch of different sources quick question yes Simon is your yes oh that was an easy question is my Shear always going to be on Monday yes i' I've never had a yes no answer so easy as that yes yeah yes and I've got to finish because we're over time yes civilians yes absolutely and that is a major consideration 100% we will see next week that that is a major consideration as to whether whether we need to whether soldiers need to know raos talks about this and others too that no matter what happens we will not leave you behind will that motivate them to fight more which is not the case with a civilian which is interesting because rorian says a soldier has to know that whatever happens they're going to come and get him I wonder whether that's what soldiers think today if you asked a soldier you know would you want us to release a thousand Palestinian terrorists if God forbid you ever got captured I I I think a lot of our young people would say no that you don't do that for me which is interesting but we're going to talk about who knows how to weigh those issues but we will talk about them next week okay we'll leave it here thank you so much