Dating During Social Distancing

good evening and welcome to this the second in a series presented by auras Rebbetzin shatkin program please feel free to help yourselves to any of the food or drinks as they say everything is on the house or perhaps more accurately tonight everything is in the house we find ourselves in the strangest of times a rabbi named the rabbi's are telling us that it's a closer to machine huh machine has on the way and he's quite close I believe that was a full art the airwaves videoconferencing phone calls are all full of tremendous amounts of physic they were abundant while giving us tremendous Torah insights introdution they're teaching us how local somehow we should live during this period of time how we should prepare for Pesach which is coming up upon us so quickly there are a lot of different places and I'm sure you're all familiar with them and you probably have been on them over the past few days but you clicks on the air tonight with something just a little bit different there are many places that you could go for Toro physic but you've come here for something a little bit different according to the ad that was sent out to announce this particular program the title was practical physic for dating during social distancing also on that end I noticed that they called me a renowned lecturer and educator that was some very interesting news to hear and now that I know that I am I'd like to take the opportunity to try to fulfill the mission that was given to me my father sets out who was a robbing a shill for the years used to say a hit a Jew could learn from anything that I shall put into this world and often when he spoke at a Bar Mitzvah or at a bris or at an office he would mention this and he would say we can even learn from something as simple as a soda bottle now I have to give you a little bit of a history lesson because today we have a bottle law which requires us to return the bottles and we get a deposit we get five cents back when we return it but that law that is a place today began about 37 years ago in 1983 prior to that when I was just a little boy there was a period of time for about 20 or 30 years that there was no deposit required and there was nothing returned to you when you gave back the bottle and on every bottle I don't know if the right word is inscribed because it was an etched in but it was in the glass itself maybe embossed is a better work it was called a bottle mark you can still see them on some bottles and on the bottle it said in big capital letters no deposit no return and my father over some used to say to the people celebrating to some club you see from the soda bottle every investment requires a deposit without a deposit if you don't put anything in you don't take anything out we'll get back to that part in a little while but the point is my father said you could learn from everything and I would guess we could say from everybody that a sham puts in this world and therefore I'd like to use my hero not really my hero but my hero for quotes a fellow by the name of Yogi Berra I don't know how many of you are familiar with Yogi Berra he only died about five years ago but his professional career ended about 55 years ago you know be Berra was a professional baseball player he was a catcher and then it became a manager and a coach 19 years in the big leagues most of those years I think all of those years except for one he was on the New York Yankees and as famous as Yogi Berra may have been for his baseball prowess he was much more famous for his unbelievable quotes he used to get a little tongue-tied and mixed up in the things that he said some of his more famous quotes that he said something like we made too many wrong mistakes or no one goes there nowadays it's too crowded and one of my favorites he used to tell the team pair up in threes GOP Barrett was had a penchant for mixing things up but if we're in an upside-down world today maybe we could use Yogi Berra to help us reach the practical physic that we're looking for in our social distance dating Yogi Berra said first quote if you don't know where you're going you might end up somewhere else now this actually makes a little bit of sense it would apply even in normal times but certainly today if we're going to be dating in a situation where it's very much concentrated one-on-one we don't have any distractions that we could look to when there's an awkward silence I'm walking in the park and we're not going out to eat and we're not watching a show Koecher show we're we're basically concentrating on each other and an awkward silence could sometimes be very difficult to tolerate and so let's take Yogi's advice if you don't know where you're going you may end up somewhere else so know where you're going I think Yogi's suggesting then we make a plan more important now than ever if we're going to be talking on the phone we're gonna be doing a video conference there's nothing wrong with having a plan having some notes of things that you want to discuss things that you could use perhaps there should be a plan a and even a plan B so that in case it's not working out so well we could switch to something else now of course if Hashem is good to us and the conversation is just flowing then let it flow but if it's not be prepared know where you going so that you don't end up somewhere else yogi was also very prophetic now I don't want to say it was a prophet because basically what he said was dumb but it turns out to be prophetic second quote from mr. Berra the future ain't what it used to be now of course when he said it it made no sense but today we have to think of this man as a genius he was so right after the situation that we find ourselves in today and may Hashem remove it from us as soon and as painlessly as possible but I don't think any of us will ever think of the future in the way we may have thought of it before maybe as little as a week or two ago I think this situation besides showing us the bashir was so close has told us certain things about the values and the importance of the things that we look used to look to in the future that perhaps today don't carry so much weight I refer to the glitz and the glitter the wealth and the extravagance the high and the mighty I don't mean some Howard toward Giants but Lahav will how political people our celebrities all of the things that perhaps and I put myself in the mix perhaps we once thought that these were important things we aspire to to great wealth we aspire to - unbelievable prominence we look for things that would be in our future that today we realize are so unimportant how important could they be if a tiny microbe could make a healthy person gasp for breath how important could it be if we can't walk out of the doors of our home we can't go to shul - Davin we can't go to work and you'll excuse me but this is in all the news we can even purchase bathroom tissue no matter how stuffed our wallets are with cash so I think that we have a different perspective now of the future and what's important and what we're looking forward to and when we're talking now on a date on the phone on a videoconference I'm sure the first type of that will come up is so what have you been doing while you've been stuck inside I mean what else could be a topic of relevance and let's analyze what we hear from the other side are we dealing with somebody that shallow and they're looking through their own baseball card collection or they're changing the color of their nail polish or are they taking the time now to reconnect with old friends to check on family maybe do some shooting online maybe learn a new language something that would show us that a person has tightened has some content is something here that's important and they're not wasting their time at other times in the past we may have overlooked some of these things but today with the situation that were in if we're dating with social distancing this may be a perfect opportunity to hone in on the real things the things that we really want to see in a potential life partner Yogi Berra also said we have a good time together even when we're not together of course when he said it it didn't make any sense but today he couldn't be more right we are suffering I shouldn't say that we are involved in social distancing we are apart physically but we've been drawn together emotionally and on every other level it's incredible how our community has come together the carry and the that we see all around us children for their parents neighbors we've had calls we've had neighbors that called us and asked us is there anything we could get you were going to the store it's beautiful hats Ella who always does awesome things for the community are going well beyond the call of duty to be here for anybody that needs them there are young people worried about the old people they're old people worried about the young people the doctors and nurses in the hospital the people that are in places that are there only to help other people it's incredible how much coming together is based on our social distancing perhaps we could say on a much lighter level that the same should be for a socially distant date we can add a good time together even if we aren't together again it goes back to the planning maybe there's something that we could do maybe not on the first date but maybe on a second or a third date where we can work on a game or an activity where we could have fun we could enjoy we could have a good time together even though we're not together one thing is for sure as we prepared for our future lives and of course that includes preparing for mushiya's imminent arrival the Gemara tells us that the second base Invictus was destroyed because of sinner skinner and the third and final base image - the ghoulish Alima will come based on harvesting when we love our fellow Jew we love our fellow just because he is our fellow that's what's going to bring mushiya the coronavirus has done a very good job obviously it was the a burster that sent the corona virus that has done a very good job in bringing us together in improving our abbess kingdom and making us think of other people perhaps even before ourselves but I'd like to share with you if I may a short story that sends the message of Abbas cinema home like no other message Kent this story is a true story took place in 1973 I just finished high school and I went to Israel to study in a yeshiva that was very young went to study in a Shiva it got there in September of 1973 and those of you that are familiar with our history in the State of Israel there was a war called the Yom Kippur War it broke up broke out as we were doubling Lucifer on Yom Kippur of course we were American kids what did we know the Israeli kids certainly knew a lot more than us and they were scared and they made us scared we were told by these Sheva novenas madam you can't go out on vacation certainly not not when the situation is so dire what we did do is we volunteered to help the war effort and my job little sixteen-year-old boy I was sent to the bakery and I was packing bread to send to the front and that's where I heard this story again if you familiar with the history in the Yom Kippur War things did not start off very well the Israeli army was quite unaware and there were hundreds lon many casualties when the war began and on one of the first days of the war deep in the Sinai desert down south one of the soldiers unfortunately stepped on a mine and was blown to death his face was recognizable but not much else of him was and his ID tag which for some unknown reason they call dog tags but his ID tag was blown away from his body and only a small portion remained and on that small portion that had his last name but his last name was Levy who knows how many levees that were deployed to the Sinai desert during those first days of the war and we're not talking today we're talking 47 years ago computer systems weren't were they worth today and they brought this body never back to bear Sheva which was the closest space and they were trying to figure out what to do they wanted to notify the family they wanted to allow this body to be brought to Korra as soon as possible but what should they do they didn't even know which family belonged to all they knew was leaving and so after a quick and thorough search of whatever records they had they found that there were eight levies that were deployed to the Sinai desert and the decision was made we need to call all eight families and they'll have to come down to pear Sheva and somebody somebody is gonna have to identify this poor soldier and that's what they did they made eight phone calls that morning and they called eight families and they told them we don't know for sure but there's a possibility a small possibility but there's a possibility that your son was the one who was killed in the Sinai desert and we ask you to please come to bear Sheva to attempt to identify the body and slowly they began coming their ship was not so close to mid Israel or northern Israel and they were families that came from far it took them a few hours they started arriving the first family came you could see how desperate they were and how scared they were and how nervous they were in the sergeant met them and explained to them what they were going to do and they sympathize I said we know how difficult it is but we want to make sure that we know who this poor soldier is could you please go into that room and take a look and they went into the room and within seconds they were out they said no no that's not our son and the second family came and again they went through the whole procedure they spoke to them they won them they sympathize with them and asked them to go into the room and they went in and again seconds later they came out and the same for the third and the same for the fourth and then the fifth family came but it wasn't really a family it was an elderly gentleman ah survivor who came to Eretz Israel after the war got married and had two sons his first son died during the six-day war six years earlier in 1967 his wife passed on just a year before after a prolonged illness he had one son that was his entire family he had no parents he had no brothers or sisters he had no other children this was his one and only son and now it was questionable whether his son was lying on the stretcher in the other room and the sergeant explained to him again we don't know for sure there's a chance that it might be your son can you please go in there and take a look mr. Levy says yes ever and he goes into the room and mr. levy doesn't come back out and the seconds tick by and then the minutes tick by and if the five minutes which is an awful long time when you're waiting for somebody to come out of a room which should have taken ten seconds the sergeant looks after the lieutenant and all ten looks at the sergeant and they lift the curtain they look in and they see mr. levy just standing there he's just standing here and they said what should we do so give him another few minutes in the game another couple of minutes but he's just standing there and the sergeant says I'm gonna go in and he goes this is mr. levy I know how difficult this is for you can I help you miss levy says no no give me a moment give me more than that I'm gonna do and Sergeant leaves him alone goes back out and again they wait a minute or two or three or four and nothing happens and they're peeking in and they see miss Leavey still standing in the same place he hasn't lifted the sheet he hasn't looked and this Martin goes back in he says mr. levy I know how hard this is feel please let me help you let's go together and let's take a look mr. levy says that's not it this is what he made it's nothing he says I had a long trip here and I've already made up my mind that if this is my son who sacrificed his life on behalf of Claudia strap then I accept what God has given me and I will live with it the sergeant was looking at this old man the strength of this old man and he says mr. levy then why haven't you looked and mr. Levy looks up at the sergeant Lee says sorry I'm just thinking if it's not my son am I allowed to be happy if it's not my son it's somebody else's son the avasthaa nam' of mr. levy is incredible Hashem should watch over us and protect us from ever ever coming to any type of anguish like mr. levy did but it's a level of avasthaa nam' that we should aspire to imagine a world where people think about other people's feelings and put them before their own what a world that would be that's gonna be the world that's gonna bring machine and that my friends is what we're looking for and they soul mate someone who will have the ava's freedom for all Jews and certainly as a soul mate to put their feelings second to the feelings of their loved ones let me close by going back to the Vaart of my father is a fertile abraha my father actually got Smitha in shanghai china during world war ii that's where he escaped to with no family with no one but is he Sheva buddies ended up in Shanghai and that's where he married my mother that's where he got Sneha when he came to this country it was a rough for all the years and he had a very special relationship with young people so now going on 37 years in fact two weeks from yesterday will be his 37th yard site I'm you can I listen the way things look right now I doubt that I'm gonna be getting in alia on the art side and I doubt that we'll have an opportunity to say Kaddish so perhaps this could be is the hood for him my father used to say no deposit no return in Yiddish used to translate as Malik mr. Rhyne never managed a rice if you don't in best you don't get back if you don't make an effort you're not gonna have any kind of results but by the same token the greater the effort the greater the results what a physic what a lesson for all of us in all aspects of life but certainly as we're dating and certainly as we're dating in a situation such as we find ourselves in today it's gonna take some effort it's gonna take some effort to wait because much as our said I really want to help you and it never leaves their mind for a moment what they can do to help our singles and try to pair them and marry them off but everybody's in a difficult situation now people have families people are preparing for pizza it may not go as quickly as we'd like it so it's gonna take some efforts some effort to wait and then there's recession some effort to date don't give up don't say it's too hard don't say I'll wait to hear no no that's not what we're talking about we're talking about getting to it making the deposit and getting the return perhaps I should have started with this last quote of Yowies but I'm gonna end with it Yogi Berra said the first thing I should do is thank everybody who made this day necessary well Ora didn't make the day necessary but Ora certainly knows what is necessary for the day we have to thank them for always being at the forefront helping chloe's well this is zoom presentation is just a small cog in a great machine a machine that works tirelessly on behalf of our people like to thank Rabbi Leifer mrs. Sarah brows key who run the reticence program I'm honored to have been asked to participate I thank you all for listening and mash em hear out Phyllis - MC our coming together while we're staying apart it may grant all of us and especially you smoke the kirov simplest soup and the greatest Sun covered all the coming of Michelle said can you remember you may know her main domain it's my honor to introduce the next speaker a wonderful and talented man I know he was an excellent student in the seventh grade because I was his English and history teacher and he's only gone on makefile of oil to excel in everything that he does it's my privilege to introduce Rabbi Meir Thank You rabbi towards the words of wisdom and also thank you for that introduction just to say Who I am what I do I am a licensed clinical social worker an LCSW in private practice in Lakewood New Jersey I'm also a professor of Social Work and I work a lot with singles and with people who are dating so this is an area of focus of mine and I think you refer putting together the program and for asking me to participate I think that that my role is going to be to to be more practical and pragmatic in the current situation and dating so I want to first begin by saying that we are in an evolving situation I would review today the the video of last week's presentation and it was interesting to see the the switch from what was being said from the perspective of the situation then the medical situation people were talking about going out on dates I live in Lakewood New Jersey currently where we're told to shelter in place we're not going out at all I can't I can't imagine in the current situation people actually physically meaning to have a date to just at least where I am and I know that this is also dependent on your geography but at least where I am that that is not even an option so that that leaves us with a couple of choices to make and just just before we even get to that actual choice we should we should just acknowledge and notice our what we are going through because we are sheltering in place it leaves us in a situation where in many ways we're removed from our regular world and because of that although there's also the positive of being able to focus on on the spiritual aspect etc etc but there's a very practical result that that our minds are not really as clear sometimes sometimes we get we get lost in a loop how many watsapp status updates have you done how many snaps have you had how many times did you view the news how many how many means did you receive and so we get caught in a loop and it's it's not a very healthy place to be as we're considering dating somebody else because we're our mind is now isolated somewhere there's also a a practical reality that when we're doing social distancing to a certain extent were also being isolated then nothing worse for a human being than loneliness the way I always talk about this and and and the reason why I'm talking about it also partially is because I recognize that some singles probably are living either with family or roommates and some singles may be living alone and loneliness is a terrible failing unfortunately people who are single especially if they're single and they're a little bit older they often experience loneliness it's the most painful thing a person could experience the way I Illustrated I talk about a person in Siberia the person is is freezing they're starving that being beaten they're being worked to death if the guard wants to punish them they put them into solitary confinement because being alone being lonely is worse than freezing and starving and being beaten and worked to death so as we are in this situation and then we find ourselves sort of getting caught in the loop of our our mental processes or the things that we're doing some of us are still working from home some of us are not and we get caught in in this place which may not be such a healthy place and so therefore as you're considering dating you realize that you're going to have to break out you're gonna have to overcome this you're gonna have to reset yourself and the best way to do that is before you date to consciously tell yourself okay I need to get myself into the zone I need to get myself to into that mindset that allows me to date so the first question is should you date or should you not date I've spoken to people some people have said that they intend to continue on dating because the reality is we could be in this situation that we're in now could go on for months and they don't want to put their dating life on hold other people have said that dating via camera and video is so difficult for them they're not they're not comfortable with that way of interacting with people and particularly in the instance of dating where it's making such an important decision they don't feel they could be natural they don't feel they could get a proper sense of the other person and therefore they would like to put their dating on hold even decision could be the right one it has to be the right one for you that maybe based on your own sense of things you could also talk that over with a mentor the Rebbetzin x' program has mentors that could help you in making this decision or you could talk it over with whichever person you tend to discuss these types of decisions but either decision can be correct I'm gonna start I'm gonna talk about both ways but I'm gonna start with the dating part of it because that's really our our focuses current dating in the current climate then I'll cover more broadly if I have time just dating in general which will also speak to the situation of those who are gonna choose to pour to put that dating on hold so again whenever were dating whenever we're looking into a particular person whenever we're choosing to date a particular person we have to put off full mind into that it's it's terrible sometimes I speak to people and they're considering dating one person and they're also like sort of just tasting and I'll just get a little sense of this other one and they're they're trying to skim sort of in their dating and what happens is that they're not fully involved with person a they're not fully involved in person B so the result is that neither of those situations can work whichever person that you're considering dating you have to be into them 100% as difficult as it is sometimes to hope you have to walk into the situation with the hope this is the one this is the person I'm going to marry and then of course you have to evaluate to see is that the person but the mindset has to be I'm totally involved in this anyway even though in today's world in today's current situation it may be difficult to get yourself totally focused but you have to be totally focused on this is what I'm doing and I need to get my head in the game keep in mind that regardless of whether we're doing this dating on a sugar fake where we're meeting in person or a sugar fake being done online it is an awkward situation we're supposedly going to be totally ourselves in a situation where it's totally not us the whole situation is very uncomfortable to begin with nevertheless it's especially important if you're going to be dating Verte that via video conferencing I'm gonna use the word zoom as shorthand for video conferencing it's a shorter word if you're facetiming if you're using any other platform it's all the same so we're going to talk about dating in the zoom world so number one there are very positive aspects we could look at it in a very positive sense first of all we're gonna you don't need to find the place to go you don't need to find the place to the park you don't need a travel C is safe and travel time that's true generally in most situation the guy is doing the driving to pick up the girl but it's true for the girl as well she doesn't need to go out she doesn't need to have that that whole the the awkwardness of the car of that whole piece of it and you save the time of it and of course you also save money now having said that since normally and this was said last week so it's somewhat you know as I was preparing this had come to mind right away it's obvious then when I watched last week's video there talked about it but nevertheless I think it bears repeating and maybe the people here who didn't see last week's presentation but ordinarily when were dating we're in a some venue and there is some distraction it takes some of the time and takes some of the attention take some of the focus away and therefore it's possible to have a longer date and if those get too heavy in a zoo situation there are no outside distractions get totally on screen the whole time you need to be present the whole time which I'll address a little bit more in a moment and because of that it's it's so much more intense so even a shorter date is okay and as a matter of fact given the amount of stress and the possibility of the date really going south you should begin initially from the start last week they recommended a first state not more than 45 minutes if it's really going well and you didn't even notice in your past 45 minutes and it's working great otherwise 45 minutes is a good guideline to look at it as a maximum on a first date if you notice I have the background of my screen it has the Revit ins because of that there might be some sparkling around my image because my computer doesn't have enough processing power to really render it properly keep in mind though when you're doing a zoom date whatever is in the room with you is going to be seen by the other party so when normally you're thinking of presentation you want to be properly groomed etc over here you also have to consider what's going to appear on camera and you need to make sure that there aren't things behind you that perhaps don't reflect well on you or are not really what you want to put forward on your first date dress up for the date now when I say that you know I'm wearing a suit and tie right you know I'm wearing a suit and tie you see it on camera so a lot of times as a temptation people will put on a suit and tie and then weird jeans wear loafers no shoes who's gonna know I'm on camera you don't know what I'm wearing now I'm saying despite that dress up for the women obviously you're gonna get fully made up because you're not going to go on a date without grooming yourself properly I'm saying even for the guys even though you're only half on-screen when you're dressed in a suit it makes you feel that you're in a more formal place you're in a a more appropriate form of dress it doesn't have to be a suit by the way I'm saying suit because that's the way I tend to dress for business and therefore I do that to project professionalism it could be you never wear a suit it could be you never wear a suit on a date whatever you would normally wear on a date dressed up the way you normally would on a date that's what you should do don't wear sweat pants with whatever you would normally wear on the date because you won't feel the same and therefore you won't be as likely to project the same way so you need to get yourself in the game one of the ways you get yourself in the game is you get yourself totally dressed up dating via video is real dating don't look at it as speed dating there was someone who had said given feedback that sometimes it could feel that way it shouldn't be taken any less to any less seriously or less intense it can and should be a full regular date when when you're on camera it does require more focus because when you're on camera you're on a camera the whole time I am a therapist so now I'm doing a lot of my therapy sessions are done via zoom and what I'm discovering is even though I'm always present I'm always focused but I could see my image on the screen and I know that people are only looking at the screen they're not glancing elsewhere because that's the nature of a video conference so I need to be fully focused every moment of every session with every client and I've heard from others as well it is an effort it's an effort that even though I always focus I find that it still can it needs more effort on my part because ordinarily a client will glance for me and they won't do that now and when you're dating normally your date will at times look around the room that's also useful sometimes that triggers a topic of conversation it triggers something of interest it reminds you of something you could talk about something else over here you constantly need to be fully involved with the date so that's very important and it actually has a an upside because in in the more right-wing yeshiva type dating situations they tend to spend a lot of time talking about serious topics learning really about what the other person is about in a zoom date you may get more of that more quickly because you you need to be there and present the whole time at the same time even though it does lend itself to this more intense you're going to have to figure out ways to lower the intensity and at times to be have more fun and to be able to share things more easily and also just the lighten things so I have some suggestions for that as well some are my own suggestions some I've heard from other people the dating card games that are played they're easily played online there are also certain board games that have online versions that you could play an online version of a board game so you're each logging in together and you're playing against each other or with each other another thing that you could do and some of these require a little preparation you may you may in zoom there's the ability to share your screen you could share a clip a short clip and something that is of interest to you and then something you could talk about so that's something that really doesn't on a date normally to take out your phone and start showing a clip but over here there might be the possibility of doing that you could also either prepare ahead of time or jointly visit a museum see art together ship poetry that I heard from somebody I'm personally I'm not at the boat but someone someone came up with that idea if that's what you're into someone came up with idea of perhaps cooking something together separately which could be a lot of fun okay so but it would require planning you have to make sure that you each have the ingredients and then you could do that casually so you have your phone set up where you computer set up in the kitchen and you both cook them together separately overall when you're Zoom dating when you're video dating it requires planning yes the dates can be shorter but you need a plan plan plan as throw a quarter what's already pointed out because of the fact that it's so intense sometimes you need to have a plan a and a plan B and a Plan C things that you know that you could talk about be creative there's a lot of opportunity in video dating to in a creative way to have a good time to get to know each other and also to make it light in some ways just a few other things about about the the dating these are general dating things there they're definitely even more important than a zoom situation open-ended questions ask questions that require more than a one-word answer when we ask questions that can be just answered with a yes mm why don't you go to the college yes what are you studying accounting do you like it it's yes or no that's it you just okay and then it feels like you you're interrogating the person or asking them 21 questions but you could say oh you're in school what are you studying accounting Oh what do you like best about it what led you to that field those are open-ended questions they require a couple of sentences to answer and then it's very important and this this varies by your personality if you're the type of person that could talk to anyone you could talk to a doorknob you could go on and on for 15 on any topic then when you're dating and your date asks you something think of your answers in terms of a sentence try to only answer with one sentence if you're the talkative type trying to answer with one sentence you're probably gonna say two to three sentences if you're a quiet person then think in terms of paragraphs so if someone asks you a question and you tend to be quiet try to answer with a paragraph you'll probably end up with the same two to three sentences and that'll give the person the sense that you with them that you're hearing that you're participating in the in the conversation as far as things that that can be done if you decide not to date for now or even if you are dating in general we we in the field we talk about the fact and I I do marital counseling as well I do couples counseling and and we talk about water finding its level some people say you know people tend to marry others at about the same psychological and emotional development as themselves generally if a couple comes in for counseling and they're in trouble and he tends to be very depressed it's not that she's necessarily going to be depressed but she has some challenge as well couples in general people will be attracted to people that are about in a similar position as them on this mental health spectrum on the personal development spectrum if you're very much into growth and personal development then you're a growing person chances are you're gonna be attracted to someone else like that if you have flaws and things about you that that really need fixing generally the person you're gonna end up with is gonna be more or less somewhere also they may not have the same floor you have they'll just have a different flow okay so they they say that the marriage is is not a repair the only problem that getting married fixes is the problem of being single I don't remember who that quote is from it's not my original thought it's very true so whether or not you're putting dating on hold it's a good idea to go to a mentor to a close friend to someone you respect and ask them is there something about me that you think I should work on to improve before I continue my dating process or as I continue my dating process is there something I ought to be working on and then listen to what they have to say if you can listen on defensively just listen and get the guidance you need in what you need to work on very very important because the the more improved you become the more the the better the prospect that you'll find yourself attracted to and that will be attracted to you and ultimately dating is not about dating the goal of dating is not dating the goal of dating is not to get engaged the goal of dating is to get to the happily ever after part and to have a successful marriage that's the goal of dating I have more to say about that but I I'm wondering to rob a leaf roof we should pause and take questions you could do that if you'd like I noticed it was a question earlier that said how should we assess someone's me toes like throughs do doing a zoom it's hard you know when you're in person you can see the way they act of things and there's much more interactions but how would you judge that you know through a zoom okay thank you for the question it is it is more difficult to assess someone when when you're meeting them in an isolated place often times when when we're dating and and you're walking in a venue or you're traveling together and you see how the person interacts with outside situations when you're meeting only via zoom so it's isolated to just the two of you then you need to listen to what saying reporter what's made the suggestion of listening to what they're doing as as the the time in isolation grows and to hear what they're doing you could also listen to what people say as they describe their family relationships as they describe their relationships with coworkers or friends or fellow students if they're still in school and and you need to pay attention and then ask follow-up questions or something if someone's telling a story they're telling about an incident that happened you know when they were with that roommate or when they were in school and and then just take an interest in them and listen to what they're saying a lot of times people reveal a lot about themselves when we pay attention to what they're saying it's sort of what I do professionally but it happens to be something we all do we all listen hopefully we all listen when we choose to listen then we could really get a sense of what's going on with somebody by the way it was mentioned last week I'll mention it again zoom dating can take you all the way to pre-engagement probably not a good idea to get engaged until you've actually had at least one date face to face it might mean that if you're just meeting someone for the first time now you have the next few months of the isolation time to get to know them etc and then you'll have the opportunity to meet them again but again there is a lot that can be learned just from listening to what a person is saying and how they're saying it I see that there are a lot of questions in the chat if if someone probably for you've seen yes so why don't I think you just address how many dates on assume she won't go on a so that I I would suggest also you know where it were isolated and so we may not have enough to fill up our time it's not a good idea to therefore date six times in a week a lot of times when we date to in tensley we could lose our our sense of perspective on the one hand and on the other hand sometimes it it doesn't allow for a proper reflectiveness or also for the person to digest what we're about so I am NOT saying you know in the olden back when I was dating that was a long time ago they they would talk about dating only once a week I don't think that you should only see each other once a week but pace yourself there's another another question over here is how should we know whether to you know whether to date because we cannot wait forever to improve ourselves we could also keep working on ourselves to become the best version of ourselves we also need to eventually you know to move on and to get married so how do you you know Wendy when you sign it that is fine good question so in general we should always be in growth mode of always trying to work on ourselves that's true for now when you're single it's true during your time of dating and I hope that it would also be true in after you're married I often say you know when people ask me like so when when do you stop growing I say you stop trying to improve yourself when the first shovel full of dirt hits the box and you're in the ground until then you need to be continuing to work on yourself so to say don't date because I need to work on myself is is only necessary in certain specific situations I'm saying that if in today's climate you do not feel comfortable and confident and zoom dating and you're planning on putting your dating on hold then you'll have the opportunity to spend more time to be more intensely focused on growing yourself so that when you come back to the dating process you'll be more prepared what if your anyway let's say that the situation clears up or your anyway continuing to date then you should still ask a mentor or someone you trust and feel close with for guidance as to what you should be working on but that does not require you to stop dating unless the mentor or respected person says to you you know this particular flaw it's really something you should fix before you continue dating there are specific types of situations where we would advise people to do that but in most instances the process of growth and the process of dating should take place at the same time I saw someone asked about physical attraction how do you gauge physical attraction in on zoom' the answer to that is you you can see some what you can see the person you could get a sense of the person somewhat obviously you're not going to get a full sense of the person and that will have to leave itself for the end of the dating process however in a certain sense it'll allow for a deeper decision and a deeper understanding of the other person physical attraction is very important it should not be ignored set aside or or dismissed it is an important aspect of the dating decision however it should not be the only or the central decision of the dating process the way I've had this discussion with people and I point out to them if the person you're dating and the person you ultimately marry if they're kind they'll probably be kind their entire life if they're thoughtful and considerate they'll probably be thoughtful and considerate their entire life if they're bright they'll be probably be bright their entire life if they're pretty or handsome you know that looks are the one thing you're guaranteed are going to change for the worse over time and to make your decision based on the least stable quality of the other person just doesn't seem like the best decision you could make it's important you need to be physically attracted to the other party and you need to keep it in mind but it shouldn't be the central point another question here is happily we find what we are looking for in a partner Oh III knew they would throw the easy questions obviously that's not an easy question um so somewhat I think that it's somewhat know thyself know who you are and and a lot of times people have a list and the list gets longer and longer and it has to be not only the qualities of the person that I'm saying but the qualities that a family and I need this and I need that and generally we we are very misguided in what we think we need so just like to give a normal strain dignity to give an almost ridiculous extreme example a relative of mine actually someone my parents generation and he was he lived in Brooklyn and he didn't drive and he decided that he would only date girls not only who lived in Brooklyn but who lived in his neighborhood it was very uncomfortable making his way around the city he was only gonna date girls who lived in his neighborhood ultimately he married someone who lived in a city hundreds of miles away and excuse me there is a reality that many times what we think we need we don't need but some of it we could evaluate on our own and sometimes we need someone else's help I think that that we should look first on our core these are non-negotiable this is something that truly is something I am a person who is wants to have a lot of company at the table I I don't want to marry someone who is socially very closed and just would never consider having company in the house okay I've heard people say I'm a very intellectual bright person I need to marry someone who's very intellectual and bright I've met many happily couple successful couples way either he or she is clearly not not just a little bit but a lot smarter and savvy er than their spouse and they're happy loving couples who successfully been married and raised families over decades it's not always so clear what is a necessity and what is something I would really like to have and a lot of times it's a good idea I mentioned before mentors so I'm always a little bit cautious when I say this I don't want to sound condescending I don't want to suggest that it's not possible for your contemporary to be your guide or advisor and these types of things however oftentimes when you consult with let's say rabbi Leifer or Rebbetzin Serra browse key people who have many years of experience and not only have their own personal experience but have seen so many different people in their dating situations and have guided them oftentimes they are a much better source of of advice and guidance then your friend who he got married or she she's already engaged and she knows she's been dating in this climate it is true that times change and the dating climate that myself or a by porta wits or the rabbets ins they didn't it's different than today's climate but human nature is human nature and they can much better guide you at times people like that can much better guide you as to what should or shouldn't be a core issue they cannot tell you what's important to you you can best know what's important to you but then they could help you put a number on it as far as its importance yes this is important to me but on a scale of one to ten I should only rate this a three and on a scale of one to ten this should get a nine or a ten another question here is what are some good topics to talk about on assume okay so I would say it's the same topics that you would talk about otherwise I did give you some suggestions generally when I when I help oftentimes by the way in at least from many of the people who come to me for guidance it's often considered the guys job to come up with topics of conversation and to make sure conversation flows I don't understand that totally I think that it's it's it's more appropriate to say that it's both parties job to keep conversation flowing nevertheless for first dates I give people acronyms the two acronyms I use there it's similar one is fish which is family Israel school and hobbies and the other one is gifs Jie ffs which is job Israel family friends school I think it's important not necessarily to have an acronym but to have many topics that you've at least thought about so that you always have something sort of in your back pocket I've told people let's say you go with fish so you start talking about family and then the other party brings up something so oh no no one second everybody's really and I can't go to camp summer camp I can't talk about vacations because we didn't talk about no just go with what you what comes up likes natural if something is flowing then let it flow but when you run out of things to talk about then you have the next topic sort of in the back of your mind incidentally you notice that as we're talking I'm glancing down obviously I have notes in front of me one of the advantages of zoom dating is that you could have a card with notes with topics things that you've come up with in advance and that could be there to remind you sometimes if you don't have that if you're in a situation where you can't use notes sometimes you forget if you don't think that people forget just go back to vitam did a conference and his teleprompter stopped working so go look at that clip when we have notes in front of us it's easier to remember what we want to talk about okay there's a lot of questions yeah I don't forget enough time to go through all of them but just another one team that I think you touched on it a little bit before also but I guess the question is is there a max that you could really get from a zoom date in other words let say you want to add a bunch of times with a zoom date and even if it's going well but then let's say this continues you know for two months or whatever it is right you know is there max potential you can get out of the zoom dating I that it's really a a venue that can be used that really could get us I'm sorry that could get that could get a couple two just at the point of getting engaged realistically the situation can be going on for another couple of months but I don't believe let's say that you're okay this is difference between someone who's meeting someone for the first time now this week and a person who's already involved in a dating process with somebody if you're already at the point of getting engaged you're in a different situation so let's start with someone who's just beginning now realistically couples tend to date at least several months before they get engaged by the time several months from now past it's reasonable to hope obviously I can't predict that any more than anyone else but it's reasonable to hope that the current situation would have cleared up and it would be possible then to go directly to an in-person date meeting each other's families etc you could if dating was going really well you couldn't meet each other's families over zoom you don't have to be in the same location it actually eases that somewhat because you know you're on the screen and it could be kept a little bit shorter and this is less of the pressures involved dating can be successfully carried out I believe over zoom and in a certain way it will allow for a deeper dating than otherwise but it should not be only these intense deep dates because the I don't think any of us I mean maybe maybe about people on the coal that could stand up to that kind of scrutiny and that would be comfortable with it I personally don't think I would stand up to that kind of scrutiny and I don't think that I would enjoy it nor would it I don't think that it works so you have to let the relationship develop and get to that more relaxed place where we could have conversations and they're just easier lighter conversations and then interspersed with that are the more serious topics the dates could be shorter but it you could look at it the same way that you would look at in-person dating it just happens to be the sign of the time this is the way it is we're living in a time where this is what's possible so then there's nothing else to be done clearly you should keep in mind that that given the current situation given the the spread of the disease and most of our communities it is possible that the person that you're dating will hopefully this will pass quickly and hopefully none of us will get ill and none of our families will get ill but it's possible that zone will be distracted by themselves or a relative not being well and this goes without saying but make sure that that you're a mensch that if someone does have to interrupt the dating and you're not going to be seeing them over the course of time when you're not in touch make sure to check in with them to see if everything's okay how they're doing how they're holding up even if it's required to post the dating I think it goes without saying but I'm saying it anyway and and I do believe that it is possible to go almost to the point of engagement before meeting in person there's another question here is you know it comes to zoom dating is it does that make sense to really do it twice no I guess the question is if you don't really have a good sense after the first time maybe it's because of the zoom or maybe it's because it just wasn't like so do you like I in general I encourage people to try always unless it's like a total blow like it's terrible it was horrible we just hated each other there was something about him that I just couldn't I couldn't tolerate I couldn't stomach etc in general I encourage people at the very least give a person a second shot and and the reason is because very often the person is nervous and and then they they are not showing their best self on the first go on the first date and therefore it's it's a good idea to allow for a second meeting so I I would say also that be forgiving in in this process of dating through zoom you need to recognize it it is an adjustment if you've never done it before it is different and as I said before it is definitely more intense and heavier and because the no distractions and makes it so difficult so give yourself as well as the other party a little bit of space and and to develop that comfort that we could at least have things flowing I'm gonna go a little bit off on a tangent because I said give someone another chance and I also said before about continuing to grow yourself and last week at the in the rabbits ins conference they talked about going back to check the list of people you've dated before and consider whether you should make them again so I think that I would share with you a story that I've said before was said publicly so by the person involved so I'm going to share it then I'll tell you then who happened to but someone shared that when he was dating he was a terribly shy person and he had a very difficult time in just being comfortable talking to people he was set up on a date with a girl and they went out and she said it quiet and and it's just not for me and he tried to one more time and I'm gonna be more talkative and I'll be more out there and she said no it's it's not for me and he pushed the shotgun to try to restart the process and and the girl said he's just he's not I can't marry a guy who's so quiet it just doesn't work for me so should the was off and they went their separate ways and they continued to date and then several years passed and they were set up on a date by a shotgun who they didn't recognize they didn't realize who they were being set up with neither party knew who it was and then suddenly they realized that they have a date with the other one and it's this person that they went out with before and the girl felt at that point that once she had already said yes and even though she wasn't at all interested in seeing this guy again she had already met him and said no to him and she really didn't have an interest but she decided to that that it wouldn't be polite to just shut him down so she decided to allow the date to happen again they they went out again and this time it was different and they dated and they successfully dated and they got married and they are a wonderful couple you may know them from from the zone it's rabbi and mrs. Davidowitz rabbi D Rabelais mrs. D who are that terrific there they clearly have a wonderful marriage and have raced camana her a large family when rabbi D told this story he said she was right to turn me down the first time around I really was too quiet for her but between the first time I dated her and when I dated her again I had left yeshiva I had founded a school and in my work at the school I had it interact with the parents and I changed I learned how to talk to people I pushed myself and I became more outgoing more able to talk the second time we dated rabbi D said we were a better match for each other so it's give a person a chance they're being quiet but maybe they're being quiet because they are not comfortable in this venue it is something new for all of us so maybe they're being quiet because they're not comfortable in the venue maybe they're being quiet it you haven't yet got enough flow going work on it give it a second shot and then if it doesn't work then you'll know after the second time but keep in mind this idea that that I said sometimes someone that's not a good match for you now may become a good match for you later okay so keep that in mind you also the idea that Rabbi de said he continued to live and to grow and to change and by continuing to change he became the person that was a good match for mrs. D okay there's another question here should we should we be more flexible on a type of people we are dating during this time of zoom okay I dress the question on my leaf right I think that you had said that someone else was going to be having a zoom conference at 9:00 p.m. so are we would this be the end of the conference it's up to you I said if you had an extra time I thought you had I do I will have to go so let me let me address the question should we change our standards so I would say it's not a question about the zoom date whatever whatever criteria are you using to choose a potential partner that's a criterion those criteria criteria should be applied in this situation as well you may want to given the the what we talked about in the beginning you may want to reassess what am i criteria in choosing a partner do I have I thought that maybe I need a brought in what I'm looking for maybe I need a narrow maybe I need to just change directions so because of that you may want to change but to say that I'm gonna change because I'm dating in a zoom environment I I don't I don't see that that's a reason to change I I think that often times you know when I as a therapist it comes the times of the hug in so the the pace of time comes and generally clients will pause their therapy because they get busy before the holiday then over the holiday I'm not working and then afterwards they come back they don't necessarily come back right away sometimes we miss two to three sessions I always take that before the holiday last time we're meeting beforehand I talk to them about you know being a we're focused and and observe themselves during that period of time and whenever they begin again I always set goals all over again and talk about what are we doing where are we and because I find that just having a break and taking a step back allows for a certain clarity of thought about the process in the same way our lives have been put on hold rabbi Porter woods talked about the fact with all eyes put on hold reassessing ourselves reassessing our world reassessing our priorities etc etc at the same time it's not a bad idea to reassess what you're doing in dating it's probably a good idea to do that periodically anyway if you've found yourself dating for a long time then then it may be a good idea anyway to periodically hit pause at least not necessarily pause the dating but internally in your own head and then ask yourself what am i what am i doing am i going about this properly I will tell you in my practice I joined some contacted by older singles or sometimes family members of older singles parents sometimes and I'll have someone come in for they say that they're 30 years old they've been dating seven years that they're 28 32 and and they want to just get it sort of an evaluation like what's going on and I have to tell you that many times I meet the people and I talk to them I listen to them I hear what they're doing I hear it what their thought processes and oftentimes I tell them what you're doing is correct it sounds like you have everything thought through it sounds like you're following the process properly you have not yet met the one that's meant for you not every person who is dating a long time or finding the dating process to be lengthy and difficult it's it's terrible - in addition to the pain of being wanting to be married and being single in addition to the loneliness in addition to the pain of the process to also feel that others are judging you that that's just like adding a actually injury to insult oneself the injury I'm not sure which would be the right way of saying it so you're not necessarily doing it wrong you're not necessarily looking for the wrong criteria you're not necessarily there may not be anything wrong with what you're doing but a wise person periodically anyway stops to think about what they're doing and just review and then it's a good idea as I said earlier to check what a mentor I'm just gonna end I I do have to go I just want to end with something to give you hope and I've said this before publicly had asked the this I had asked the people involved if it's okay to say this over I had a daughter she actually had been a counselor in the zone but she was dating and she had been dating a while and things were just not going and then she hit a dry spell we're literally for 18 months she did not have a serious suggestion and we were reaching out to people we spoke to shop kaanum we called people we took her to meet people and I'm not exaggerating when I tell you that over a period of 18 months periodically we would hear from the people on her resume that that they had received calls but we were not getting any calls and we did not have a single suggestion not just not a viable suggestion not just that we check down and it was it didn't work we did not have a single suggestion for 18 months I don't know why but it happened and then I've shown as a sense of humor and we got a call and the shot or shot who suggested a guy and it just happened to be we had planned a family trip to Israel you were all going all of us were going to Israel and we were gonna be away for a week and a half to two weeks and I started the research process we were looking into this fellow but it wasn't possible to finish the process before we went and I called the shop come back and I said I really appreciate your suggestion we are interested I cannot give you yes yet because I haven't finished the process we have this long planned vacation and we're going to be away but I please convey to the other party that we will get back to them when we get back from Israel we got back from Israel within a couple of days I was able to reach the people I needed to reach it was a go and within just a month or two after that they were engaged Baruch Hashem they're happily married with two children sometimes was sitting here and we're feeling so down we're feeling so broken maybe you're new to the dating process maybe you're you've been at this a long time and maybe you've had many dates and maybe you've had very few either way sometimes we get discouraged sometimes we feel like when will it end why me why am I stuck in this situation and it doesn't seem like it it just I just feel like I'll it'll never happen and I'm telling you that despite the fact that we're talking about zoom dating and we're talking about it has to be longer term and you're gonna have to wait till the to the till the Christ this ends and the quarantine ends etc but you each and every one of you who are hearing this right now you can be one month two months from now you could be at the cusp of getting engaged and getting married and getting to that happily ever after never give up hope we have a wonderful hashem who looks out for us he's there and he has that one planned for you the one that is going when you're going to meet them and you're going to marry them and you're going to have that life you're gonna realize it was all worth the wait and everything before that was preparation right now it seems very dark but we just entered entered the month of Nisan the the time of spring the time of rejuvenation of flourishing and flowering and a Shem should help that every single person who's looking for a sugar should find the right one and we should protect us all and all of humanity from the current situation from the current illness that nobody more should die from this illness and we should quickly have the vaccine and the medicine necessary so that everybody will remain safe and healthy Kishan and Samantha