The Unfiltered Truth About Marriage | Rabbi Manis Friedman

Come on in, Oshi. >> Not what this place looks like. [laughter] >> Oshi Schwarz. Ramanas Freiedman. >> Schwarz. >> Wow. >> What's up, Pushy? >> Let me see if it feels the same. >> He doesn't even know. >> He [laughter] know I give a little bit of a heads up. Yeah. Yeah, it's been quite a few. >> What don't I know? >> We We used to be partners. We used to be co-hosts. >> We used to get along. >> And now, >> yeah, people think probably that me and Mike have got to some big fight cuz one day I just stopped showing up at the podcast. >> All right. It's like where's Ushi? Must be this politics going on, right? Well, they don't know. It's not me and Michael. It's me and Stefan. Actually, we got into a big fight. It's all his fault. [laughter] >> As long as it's politics, >> who cares with whom, >> right? It keeps things moving. But Ushi, first of all, I really appreciate you making time. And uh all the past 10 episode guests that we have are probably insulted right now that you didn't make the time for them. But you have been quite busy. And uh I first want to say publicly thank you for all the work that you're doing. Um you know we have an agreement. We're partners in that I do because of the work that you're putting >> 10% >> and I'm partners in the financial upside of the work that you do [laughter] where you maybe get 10%. >> But I really appreciate it and uh it means a lot to me that you're here and I it's a compliment to you that Oshi's uh here believe it or not. >> I've been watching closely like the guests that he's been getting and like am I really missing out? like, you know, I'm I'm very busy, but when I heard you're coming on, I said, you know, I'm going to make a return. I'd like to be a part of this. >> You approved? >> Yes, very much so. >> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >> I watched your content. I watched a lot of your videos. I actually did not know a lot about you before I heard that you were coming on. >> Well, you just missed all the information, >> but uh I did the research. So, the one thing that you uh that we just caught up on real quick is uh you have a tremendous rich history of uh parents that came from >> Eastern Europe, I guess, would it be called? >> Came from Poland. >> Poland and >> went into Russia. >> Wow. >> Siberia >> and uh >> Pakistan, Prague, New York. >> Prague straight to Crown Heights. [clears throat] >> Well, Bronzeville, I think it was. >> Oh, okay. >> East East New York. Have you been back to Prague, by the way? I'm just curious. >> No. Okay. I've been to Prague recently. My father actually was born in Prague. >> Really? >> Yeah. And um there's a very special meeting for me over there. There's a beautiful clock, worldrenowned clock that keeps ticking and going around and has like things happening every hour. So, it's beautiful. Did you want to go back? >> Not particularly. >> No. >> I hear it's beautiful. >> Yeah. >> Six Bridges. Where? Where? >> Right. Right. Have you done tours of these types of places where your families are from? >> No. >> No. Do you want to? No, >> no. Meaning you're of the mindset that it's not for you or it's just never happened. Some people I'm saying have a mindset of we're not going back. I'm just curious. >> No, no, no, no, >> no. Just no. No interest. >> Got it. Got it. Yeah, that's all you missed. >> Welcome back everybody to the most incredible episode of the None of Your Business Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Greenfield, and with me today is co-host Oshi Schwarz. And uh she's here because he found a little bit of time to make it here. And uh I guess we went through what happened and all the challenges that we've [laughter] had, but you're here now and that's all that matters. And you're here for Avanas Freedman, which is really important. And uh thank you again for being here and part of our program. We really appreciate it. Um you you brought a book with you. I I want to get right into that if you don't mind because it's just glaring at me. It's sitting here. It's sitting there. It's almost sitting right on top of you as well. And I was mentioning to you that the word vulnerable I'm very very familiar with. uh the word divinely vulnerable or the word divine. I actually don't uh really respond well to that word. I don't know what it really means. So I'm curious if you can first of all if you can tell me what the word means, the word divine and how divinely vulnerable comes together. What's the book about? If you don't mind just if it's here and sitting in front of us, what's this all about? Well, one of the big kush in psychology is that vulnerability is not a weakness, it's a strength. I think what they mean is if you're weak, you can't afford to be vulnerable. So, you got to play tough. But if you're tough, you can be vulnerable. You can take a little hurt. You can take a few, you know, a few bad pieces of news and you can go on. But it but it is really a correct observation that vulnerability in properly understood has nothing to do with being weak or being in pain. So I got to tell you this story. This guy, a guy calls me and says, "I'm living alone in a city with no Jews. I was born Jewish. For the last 30 years, I've been practicing Christianity. I'm a retired psychiatrist, but as I'm getting older, I feel a need to connect to my people. What can I do here in this town? I should feel connected to my people. [snorts] So, of course, I said, "Get a pair of fillin. You put them on every morning. You'll feel connected." He says, "Oh, no. I can't do that. Every time I try to do something Jewish, I've had a bad experience." Sounded kind of strange. So I said, "Look, nobody's Jewish because it's been a good experience [laughter] has nothing to do with it. If you do what God needs from a Jew, then you feel like a Jew. If you do what God needs from a non-Jew, you feel like a non-Jew." He says, "God needs I never heard that before." So I I don't want to get into a discussion on theology with this guy. I said, 'L God is is infinite, right? Yeah. Infinite in all ways, in everything, infinitely smart, infinitely strong, infinitely Yeah. I said, then he must also be infinitely vulnerable. See, he starts to laugh. He says, God is vulnerable. God is almighty. So I said, "Doctor, are you suggesting that vulnerability is a weakness?" He got completely flustered. He hangs up the phone. Few days later, he calls up. He says, "Where do I get fill in? I don't know what this guy is. I don't know who I'm talking to here." I said, 'Why all of a sudden?' [snorts] He says, 'Because I I can't accept the message of Christianity. I said, 'Ash, he says, my profession doesn't allow it. I said, after 30 years, now you wake up. He says, let me explain. We know in our profession, we know that if for example a man says to a woman, I love you very much more than anything in the world. Oh, you're not interested. You're a loss. We know that he never loved her and his claim of loving is manipulation, not love. And that's why I can't accept the Christian message. God loves you very much, but your loss. He doesn't care. Here's the punchline. He says, "There is no love without vulnerability." So, you can't have it both ways. That's a powerful statement. And that's what this book is all about. >> Hashem says, "Is he vulnerable?" No. And it's not love. It's love me or else. [laughter] That's not love. So what exactly is vulnerable? If it's not about pain, being hurt, being weak. Before we get into the explanation, just the facts. Hashem existed forever. He is perfect forever. He is infinite forever. And yet he creates a world. What is that? The only conclusion we can come to is he is infinite and he is perfect and he is all powerful and all knowing but he is alone and he does not want to be alone. So he created us to be his people, to be his children, to be his wife, to be his. So that now he is not, he is. Yak means exclusive to the exclusion of all else. Eh means united, joined, >> connected >> with with some. At what point did he decide he's lonely and he needs to have people around him >> forever? >> Meaning >> he's timeless. So he always wanted it and will always want it. We came in at a certain time. >> Okay, I'm just going with this logic which makes sense. I I get it. >> But there had to have been a certain point where there wasn't the world. We weren't created and he was alone >> including time didn't exist. [clears throat] >> So time came in when we started to exist. >> Okay. And he needed us. He wanted to join and share and have people around him. >> Yeah. But not out of loneliness which is a weakness and not out of kindness which he created. He created kindness so that we could connect. But what he wanted was the connection which is much deeper and much higher than so he didn't create the world for he created the world to have us and not be alone. in order to have us and be able to interact and connect. He created he created he created created everything but he created it all so that we could be together. >> So the book let's go back to the divine vulnerability. So how does that >> divine means heavenly or of God. So all vulnerability begins with him. Got it. >> He was the first example of displaying vulnerability by creating a world and by feeling it's not enough. I want something more and better. And he created what that thing would be better >> and created this concept of humans connecting with one another, connecting with him. And that was where vulnerability led to the beautiful life we live. >> The simple definition of vulnerable is it's not enough. I'm not enough. >> Just me. Not enough. So you can call it vulnerable because it really is. With me, you're okay. Without me, you're not. Oh, that's vulnerable. >> Yeah. >> It's not loneliness. It's much deeper. Um >> I wouldn't define being vulnerable as weakness. >> It's not. >> No, that's what he's saying. >> Yeah. But as it's very hard to be vulnerable. It's one of the more difficult things for people to reach that level. Even with somebody you're very close to, it's hard to be vulnerable to. >> So, we are are afraid of being vulnerable because we could get hurt. >> Yeah. >> But it's deeper than that. Being vulnerable means I I can't be without you. That leaves me very vulnerable. Not because you might not be there. if you don't mind, how do you connect that to and I still want to get back to you and your background and we're going to get back to that in a minute. Um, how do you connect that to today's world? And what I mean is that um I I meet a lot of people that you would think that they have everything and yet they're so lonely. And um I even admit to myself sometimes that um it's alone. I feel the sense of being alone sometimes. I'll never forget I heard on the radio someone calling in um a Christian leader on a on a radio program and uh the woman was complaining that her and her husband that they work for the army and they they can never uh create a relationship long enough because they keep moving from place to place. So the Christian uh pastor or whatever it was said that's why you have to create a relationship with God. It goes with you everywhere. And it struck a chord for me. And I'm I'm wondering when you're talking about being vulnerable from a place of strength and the depth of vulnerability and how it started with God, it plays a role in everyone's life. In other words, people that you would think have everything but they're alone or people who are single unfortunately and they've never met their uh you know basher or spouse or even a child that doesn't have parents anymore that care for him as much as they should because they come from a challenging or dysfunctional family. How does it connect the most? And what can we learn from that in terms of society today and as human beings? >> We know about all our problems. We don't need to go over them again and again and again. Yes, we're dysfunctional. We're lonely. We're broken. We're traumatized >> a hundred times over. Okay, we know what's what's the right way. What what's the healthy side? Loneliness is a is a condition. Lonely people get together, they're not lonely for the while, right? But that feeling of being alone in the world, it's a completely different thing. It's not like if you're lonely, you need somebody. Being alone means this is wrong. It's not right to just be me. There's something wrong with that. So, what do you want? I don't know. But it can't be just me. That is the extreme opposite of um narcissist. The narcissist can't think of anything other than himself. The healthy person in moments of sobriety realizes what? Just me? Yeah. No, that can't be. Not because I'm missing something, but because it's just not right being just me. But what is that? What's wrong with being just you? That's what people say to get into psychology. They get very confused. >> I'd like to break it down for a second for myself personally because I can't I don't want to talk about anybody else, but I feel a need of having to be with others in order to feel good about myself. It doesn't mean that I don't like alone time. Um, but I have a limited capacity of how much alone time I can have because then I start to feel alone. So, I'm curious. Let's just talk about me. >> You're talking about a physical being alone. I don't think that's what you're referring to when you're saying being lonely. I mean, you're talking about an isolation in your in your mind. You feel different than other people. You feel like people don't understand you, >> right? Lonely is such a broad thing that people can feel in different ways. That's why people can feel alone even when they're not. >> Yeah. Michael, you're a party guy. You don't like to be alone for that reason. You like you don't like to just sit with yourself in your own thoughts. You're always coming and going and you're busy and you like to have people around you. You're entertainer. You know the physical side of you, you don't do well if you're sitting by yourself, >> right? That's what I'm talking about. >> You need to kind of There's nothing wrong with that. Is there something wrong with that? >> No, nothing wrong with that. >> That's the social side of us. >> Okay. >> But we're talking about something deeper. >> Please. >> The only way to not be alone in the world is through marriage. No matter how many friends you have, you're alone. You're not lonely because you're social. You got friends. You go, you travel, but you're alone. The only time you're not alone is when you're married. >> If you're healthfully married, if you have a good marriage, then >> that's why in recent years doing marriage counseling, I realized functional couples will admit that they feel alone in the world. I said, "How can that be? You're married." because in the marriage they never really connected which is not marriage. So, so here's the point. This not wanting to be alone sounds like a contradiction because most people beg to be alone. Just leave me alone. I'll be fine. Everybody just leave me alone. >> I need space. Everybody's So one second. Torah says God said it is not good for man to be alone. Is it or isn't it? If it's not good to be alone, why does everybody want to be left alone and then complain that they're all alone? >> Well, in doses, they don't want to be alone all the time. >> They don't want to be with people all the time. Yeah. You want to balance it out a little bit. >> It's a completely different phenomenon. The egodriven human being loves to be alone. Wants nothing more than to be alone. I don't mean isolated. Alone means just me, my chauffeur, my butler, my cleaning lady, my therapist, my my life, my comfort. >> That's all me. >> Yeah, >> that's just me. They're they're the commentary. The feeling of alone uh is un is unacceptable because we are created in God's image, not because we're human. It is a superhuman or divine instinct that we don't accept. Aloneeness doesn't compute. Not, oh, I'm so alone. I'm feeling weak. I'm feeling bored. No, it doesn't. I'm just here. I'm born and I live. Why? For what? It doesn't compute. It can't be. It can't be just me. Why? You You did mention a minute ago, and I I just want to ask real quickly, you've been doing marriage counseling, you were mentioning for a number of years. >> So, that's a it's one of my hot topics that I like to talk about in general. You know, people that are just going through the process. And uh what's a it's going to be a very broad question and you may not want to answer it so broadly, but I'm going to ask it anyways. Is there something that you see over and over again when it comes to couples and relationships that you say, "I wish X, Y, and Z." >> More than 90% of all the problems in a marriage is that the man is not the giver and the woman is not the receiver. Continue. >> Marriage means the man gives, the woman receives. If that's not happening, all sorts of problems. >> What does that mean? Give and take. What does that mean? Give what? >> Not take. See, give and receive. There's no >> receive. Okay. >> Taking is abuse. In Hebrew, it's the man is the mashpia. The woman is the macabil. >> She accepts. Receiving actually is very close to the same meaning as nurturing. A woman is a nurturer. How do you nurture? It's not something you do. It's a passive thing. You are a nurturer by natur by nature. H how how does a woman produce a child? What does she do? Doesn't do anything. >> I mean, she carries uh >> it >> a load for 9 months. I don't know if that's anything. >> But what what can she do? She can't hurry it up. She can't slow it down. She can't It's It's It's completely out of her control. And yet she is bringing to life this magnificent creature, right? And she's doing it all without lifting a finger because nurturing happens passively. If you have to do something, it's not nurturing anymore. It's serving. So a mother feeds her baby, a mother diapers the baby. That's service. Hire somebody to do that. It's okay. Nurturing means I don't do anything. You come into my daladamis, if you come into my sphere, you will blossom like in a home. [clears throat] You come home, nobody says anything, nobody does anything. You're nurtured. If it's a nurturing home, so this is the the the partnership. The man initiates a pregnancy, the woman turns it into a human being. So the man gave, the woman nurtured. >> Okay, that's a very nice header. Now let's uh actionalize this a little bit. Some tangible examples of where the woman would be nurturing her husband like what that means that she is receiving and he's giving like in a real time in a real life example like he comes home and he worked all day and she and she she's home all the time. She doesn't work and she has dinner ready for him. So, she's nurturing him. Is Is that >> Well, she worked. She That's what I'm hearing. >> She took care of the kids. She's working. >> Is that what it is? Is that what we're talking about? >> He works all day. >> Mhm. >> To be able to give her She welcomes him when he comes home. Tell a very powerful little story. >> Please. This woman came by herself with complaints about her husband. It was horrifying. Horrifying. And I and she was not open to any. She just wanted a vent. So I said, "When when your husband comes home at the end of the day and he walks in the door, how do you feel?" She says, "Disgusted. I said, "You think he knows that?" >> I can't answer that question. >> She says, "He's not stupid." The only positive thing she said about [laughter] him, [snorts] "He's not stupid." So, yeah, he probably knows. I said, "If I was your husband, I would never come home. When am I going to walk in and get greeted with a look of disgust in my house that I'm paying for? I would never come home. She says, "What are you saying?" I said, "I'm not saying anything. I just feel bad for your husband." She left. >> Good for you. I I would have said the same thing to her. I'm curious. >> Wait, wait, hang on. The punch [clears throat] line. Couple of days later, she calls >> No. She calls back >> and she said, "I want to tell you something. I decided to take your advice." I said, "I carefully avoided giving you any advice." She said, "No, no, what I mean is I decided that I'm going to look at him with Rahmanus instead of disgust." >> That's an upgrade. >> She says couple of days ago she ca he came home. I looked at him with Rahmanus. You know, he's a nice guy. >> It's so amazing. >> Yeah. >> You walk in and your wife looks at you with disgust. You're going to be a nice guy. >> Yeah. It's like a mirror. You know, you see your rebounds. However your attitude is, that's what you're going to get from the next person. >> I just have to ask you because it's glaring at me. So, let's say the woman is working. >> That's what I was going to say before. I'm sorry. >> Yeah. No, it's exactly right. Like, like let's go into 2026. You know, there's a healthy amount of women who are also working equally as hard as the the man is. In some cases, they're actually making more money than the man is. >> They're the bread winner, right? >> They're the bread winner. They're actually So, they're both coming home. They're both tired and they're both chipping for the kids. It's It's pretty much equal footing. Where's the giving? Where's the receiving? >> The end of the marriage. >> End of the marriage. >> Yeah. This 5050 business. Marriage is over. >> [clears throat] >> I don't know about that. I I know a lot of >> Let's hear it. [laughter] >> Okay. Interesting. >> The nature of the male psyche is fulfillment and pleasure in giving. That makes him a man. the the satisfaction, contentment and pleasure of a woman is nurturing. That makes her a woman. Now whether the man makes a lot of money, little money, whether the woman makes more money, less money, that has nothing to do with male or female. A man who goes to work and makes a lot of money is not more of a man. He's just richer. Listen to some of the wives talk about their rich husbands. He's not a man. [snorts] He's rich, but he's not a man. A woman goes to work, she becomes more of a woman. Of course not. Money is neutral. It's not male. It's not female. It's just money. The question is between the husband and wife, what's going on? Is he giving himself to her? Is she receiving him into herself? Doesn't matter who makes money. In fact, in the olden days, the good old days, in the olden days, the the women in Jewish life always were the breadwinners. The men sat and learned. >> You still have that today in some places. Okay. I was understanding that like it's by design that the woman needs to be at home and the man needs to be out on the workforce. Like there's rules around this. You're saying it can be in either case there has to be an element where the man is giving because that's by nature what he needs and how he operates, right? That's how he functions. And a woman needs to be receiving. But they can both be working. They can both, you know, have shared responsibilities. You know, some houses the women do the finances, right? The husband doesn't do it. There's all kinds of things that goes on, but there isn't one shoe that fits all, right? There's there's different ways to break it down. >> So, where are some of those things that we might be missing where a man should be giving and he's not? Like, do you see sometimes where it's very glaring that this is not happening and more often than it should? >> So, I'll tell you another interesting story. This couple are sitting and complaining about each other. She says, "He has never done anything since we're married." He rolls his eyes like, "You're out of your mind." She says, "You never did." He never does. She says to him, "He never did any nothing. Nothing. In all the years we married, he hasn't done a thing." He says, "Are you kidding? Name one thing you asked for that I didn't do." She said, 'You never did anything.' He says, 'Name one thing that you asked for that I didn't do.' She says, 'N never mind. You never did anything. I'm fed up with this whole thing. We've been through so much therapy already. Let's just get divorced. Get it over with. He says, "If you want it, if you want to get divorced, if you want a divorce, I'll give you a divorce." She turns to me and says, "You see, never does anything." What she meant was he never takes the initiative. Sure, if I ask him. >> I mean, that story sounds like just happened in a vacuum. I'm sure there's a lot of history there. I'm not jumping on this woman's bandwagon just yet. I need to hear I need to live with them for a little bit. See what really went on over there. You know, you have a lot of people that come to you and you have to deal with this. So, you're hearing him. You only met them couple of days ago. How do you know what's going on? >> Well, the point is this. He does everything she asks. Why isn't she happy? >> Who says he does everything she asks? Maybe he really doesn't. Maybe he skirts his responsibilities and, you know, and she's an abused wife. I don't know. Who knows? Maybe she's psychotic. Maybe she's crazy and he's the sweetest guy in the world. Maybe if the man does not take initiative, he's not her man. Yeah, he'll do everything she asks. So what is he a butler? If the man doesn't take initiative, if the man doesn't take responsibility, the woman is miserable. That's the nature of it. >> Can I in fact learn? >> Yeah. You want to kill a marriage before it even starts. And and I think you'll you'll you'll agree with this. A and Kala come home from the wedding first night. They come home to their apartment or whatever and the guy says, "So, what do you want to do now? He's finished. [snorts] [laughter] >> He's finished." >> That's a very extreme example. >> Oh, it's very common. That's probably the wrong time to, you know, ask that question. >> He's saying it's common though. Yeah, I think it happens. >> He's trying to be a gentleman. He's trying, >> right? He thinks he's being nice. >> Okay. He doesn't know better, >> right? >> He just doesn't know better. He needs >> because men are so emasculated. >> No, no, no, no. We've set up that if you're talking about the same kind of crowd I think you're talking about. >> I know whose fault it is, but men are so discouraged from being men in this society, in this culture. >> No, no, no, no. I think that we're at a point men are okay to be men, but it's okay not to live by what a definition of a man is that we used to have. Like it's a little bit different now. I think we're starting to, you know, like it's women are very self-sufficient. Not every woman needs to be, you know, doing on me all day and, you know, sending me things and buying me things. Some women, you know, they want to fend for themselves. They want to feel independent like I know a lot of you. It's >> I think I think that's the whole point here is that it's that's exactly the point. Men and women didn't really change. Are there more uh people divorces today than than there was you know 100 years ago that we uh had less options back then? Let's not forget you could a woman you know or man couldn't just get divorced. So >> they had a transactional relationship as well to consider. >> Another example on the other side. What is the worst thing a woman can say to her husband? >> Oh >> well let me let me take a step. >> What's the worst thing they can say? >> Worst thing a woman can say to her husband >> in the last week. >> I need you home in the next five minutes. [laughter] Um, let's see. Um, >> you know what? Don't go do it. Even though they're like, you know, they don't want you to do it, but like, and they already gave you a hard time about it. >> And then it's about do it anyway. Forget it. No, no, no, no. Don't. I'm staying. I'm not I'm not going anywhere anymore. At this point, I'm staying. >> The worst thing a woman can say to her husband is, >> "Never mind. I'll do it myself." >> Oh, that's what I mean. Same thing. Same idea. Yes. Yes. You said it better. >> I'll do it myself. [snorts] >> Oh, you don't need me. That's it. I'm out of here. The dynamic is similar to a teacher and a student. The teacher is the giver. The student is the receiver. We don't have real teachers anymore. We don't have real students anymore. To be a real teacher means you are disturbed by the students lack of knowledge. It bothers you. They don't know what they need to know. So, you devote yourself. You become a teacher for life. You're you're motivated by the students need. Today, that's not the case. The math teacher teaches you math whether you like it or not, whether you want it or not, whether you care or not. He is into math. He's not into the student or whatever the topic, whatever the subject, a real teacher finds the students need irresistible. Well, let's put it in different the students hunger. A vacuum is a powerful force. He feels the emptiness in the students information and that like a vacuum it it's irresistible. I I got to teach them. I must tell them. When the Torah says after they ate from the eight sadas, you will yearn for your husband. It was a curse. But God's curses are always a blessing in disguise. So the med says God punished Kava that she is going to yearn for a husband. The result men found out that women yearn for a husband. They go around crazy finding a wife. Wow. Another way of saying there the woman's yearning it becomes irresistible to a man. He wants to give what is lacking. to fill the void. If he's not motivated by what's lacking, he'll give the wrong things. He'll buy her stuff she doesn't want and be upset that she's not happy. >> So to be a giver, you have two things. Number one, you have to be sensitive enough to feel the students hunger. And secondly, you have to have the confidence that what you're offering is good stuff. So you have to believe in your message, but you have to be concerned for the student. To be a real student is even harder. A real student is a sponge. Are you receptive? Then then you just soak it up. If you're sitting in a classroom and a teacher says something and you're thinking, "Oh, I never heard that before." Is that real? Is that true? You're not listening. You're not absorbing. You're not receiving. Even if you think, "Wow, that's brilliant." You're not listening. You're editing. You're judging. You're filtering. Why? You don't really trust the teacher. So you got to protect yourself. You're not receptive. To be receptive, you got to be completely absorbent. Just keep it coming. Keep it coming. Just say what you need to say because I I I want to hear it all without hesitation, without How How many people have been students in all the years in school? When did you have that experience where just you don't want the teacher to stop? Just keep talking because whatever you say I I'm I'm soaking it up. >> I never had that pleasure. >> I guess uh you know >> so look at what happens. >> Yeah. >> These kids complain and probably rightfully so. They have a teacher who's just stupid. [snorts] Every kids teacher is stupid. I said, 'You know, if you came to class and you were really interested in getting an answer to a certain question on the Gamarra and the Mishna and the Kish, whatever it is, your teacher will suddenly become so smart. It he will teacher walks into a classroom and the kids are already bored, it knock it knocks the wind out of them. He can't be smart. He can't be He can't. There's no receptive. You cannot give where there is no hunger. Teacher walks into a classroom of alert kids who really want to hear. He's the most brilliant guy and he'll come up with brilliant ways of saying it and it'll be fantastic. The student makes the teacher. >> [snorts] >> That's a good vert. >> The teacher gets all the respect. >> Yeah. >> But the student makes the teacher. The woman makes the man. [snorts] >> That's a good connection. You you have a a passion, it seems, for a connection between spouses and obviously, like you said earlier, you made a comment about, you know, the purpose of marriage and so on. I I want to talk about divorces for a minute, if that's okay. It happens to be a hot topic now in the in our Jewish world with I'm sure you've seen on social media Flatbush Girl and what's happening with get refusers and so on. I want to bring it up for a couple of reasons and uh Oshi, I'll let you take a stab at it also because I'm sure you know you know what's going on. >> I know a little bit by the way. I I know less than you'd think I'd know. >> Oh, I see. Okay. >> I actually only found out from other people talking about it and I heard I had I'm not on Instagram so I don't really know, you know. Okay. >> Do you know what he's talking about? Okay. You're aware. Yeah. Um, could do you have a way to define what's happening by the way in the world of Flatbush Girl, get refusers and using the tools that are available to us in social media and do you have a way of defining what's happening right now? >> Yeah. A mess, a huge mess. People are stuck in their in their traumas. The woman who won't can't get it yet. the guy who won't give the get. It's it's it's a mess. >> Do you think there's another solution? Do are you are you pro what she's doing? >> No, but it but it's desperation. >> Is there another way? >> Oh, yeah. >> I I just want to throw out my my two cents here because I have been following it and I I'll get you up to date real quick. Yes. Yes. So, uh, there were a couple of single, uh, you know, men on a program of another podcast and they were talking about, you know, different experiences and one of them was apparently a, uh, allegedly, I would say, cuz I don't know the story personally, is a get refuser. And, uh, when Flatbush Girl found out about it, she, you know, went to protect, uh, his wife and said, "You have to give a get. It's been long enough." >> What did Flatbush Girl find out about this guy? What? That >> that he's not giving a get to a number of years. What else did you find out? >> I'm not I'm not sure of the actual details, but what she went to do is she, you know, she goes to the extreme to get attention to the matter. And what she did did was is she had women send in provocative pictures of themselves saying, you know, and she promoting it all over the internet, saying if the Rabanim, the rabbis have a problem with provocative pictures, they should sure enough have a problem with get refusers, so do something about it. And that's the attention that she's bringing to the matter. >> Um, >> she took a very extreme measure. >> Yeah. in order to get word out on something that she felt like was important. >> Yeah. I mean, she's not the only one. >> She knew what she was doing was kind of, you know, uh, blasphemous, right? And it was very much against the very religion that she's complaining is not protecting this guy and this this woman by doing something else that's just as vile. >> Except I agree with her and I'll take >> of what she did. >> Yeah. What she's doing. >> What she's doing. Yeah. >> Because the message is working. That's what you're saying. >> Yeah. Because at the end of the day, it may be wrong to the person that she might be hurting temporarily that minute, but ultimately the last person that I remember who did anything to get refusers ended up in jail. So if you look back at history in our world and you ask yourself who's the last person that did anything about get refusers in general, I'm not saying what right, wrong, etc. >> Are you okay with what they did back then? >> One second. I'm just I'm not saying whether I'm okay or not. I'm just saying that the last person or movement that have been done in our society about get refusers ended up in jail to Rabanim ending up in jail for beating up men to give up gets from then until this provocative movement that she's doing which may be a little bit you know >> not maybe definitely is you're saying that the punishment fits the crime is what you're saying you're saying >> I'm saying nothing has been done from then till now which comes to show you it's unfortunate literally either you go to jail or you send provocative pictures. So ultimately she's doing something she's getting the attention out. So I'm curious and your my question to you that I had was is there a time first of all where couples you say okay you know what you you guys need to get divorced it's just not working. >> Sure. >> Right. You're agreeing to that. Um, and then on that end, so when that happens, at what point do you think in today's society, hal aside for a second, and you could bring it in if you'd like, do you say enough is enough? 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, systems, processes, what would or could you create as a system that will allow some sort of future positive change in this world? >> Oh, look, it's the same as any other mitzvah. What can we do as a group, as a society to make sure that nobody is mahal shabas? There's nothing we can do besides teach convince. We have no authority. We can't beat people up. In the olden days, we had Sanhedrin, we had Bezdon, and they had some authority. We have no authority. So why is this any different? According to Torah, the man has to give her a get, but he's not. So, what are you going to do? According to you're not allowed to work on Shabas. The guy is. What are you going to do? [snorts] >> I I don't think you can compare the two because on the Shabas thing, it's a black and white chabas. On the divorce thing, you can convince, you can educate, like you said earlier. So, to what extremes do you convince and educate? And that's what's happening right now. And so I think a big part of the problem is that any guy who refuses to give a get has people supporting him and that should never happen. What are you What are you supporting? Oh yeah, she was very difficult and she it's her problem. It's her fault. What's the difference? You're not living together. >> All you're doing is killing each other. >> Let's let's let's slow down here. Let's slow down for a second. One second. I know a few people that were in situations like this that Flappish girl would have came around, you know, with her flag and saying, "Get refuser." She doesn't know any of the details of any of these people. Zero. She's just on a mission for clicks and for publicity and for getting more followers on her Instagram account. And that's where she's really coming from. And she got behind this because it's a interesting topic and so forth. >> I don't agree, but continue. >> Putting that aside, could it very well be? Is it possible that a man is not giving a get, which I don't think is the right thing to withhold? I don't think that you should use that as leverage. But what if he's going through a hard time where, let's say, his wife, his ex-wife, is accusing him of very bad things that aren't true. And she wants to take the kids away. She doesn't want him to ever be involved with the kids, no custody, and as soon as he gives her the get, he basically loses all of his rights, and he's never going to get to see his kids again. Let's say he's in a situation like that, which is not uncommon. It's not unheard of. It's happened before. So, should we always just assume immediately when someone is not giving a get, we immediately jump down and start you have to give a get. You have Wait a second. Let's just first understand the dynamic here. Let's understand a little bit about the story. The problem is we never really get that chance to understand what happens. Nobody really knows. Nobody really knows behind closed doors. Nobody knows what really happened many years ago, what's happening today. So, it's very hard to really infuse yourself. Let's not jump. Rabbi and Ishi and I haven't had an episode like this where we get to argue. So, give me one second real quick on this one. There's a lot of men that have challenges with the women. There's also women that have challenges with men. By the way, it [clears throat] goes both ways. >> A lot of men are scumbags and a lot of women are psychos. >> Okay, good. And there are the opposite as well. What I'm saying is is that of course you have a point. If there's a custody challenge and so on, that's exactly what I'm asking the rabbi. To what extent do you give a guy the ability to say, "Oh, no. I want my custody." Of course, if there's a custody, then you know. >> No, no. I thought what you were asking him was what Flappish Girl is doing. Is she taking the right measures? >> I was asking two questions, but in in terms of that, >> you kind of did. I wasn't sure which one you were going with. >> I'm going for both, but >> Oh, yeah. So, so let's narrow the question down so he could because I have my own question. Like, I I don't think that we should be jumping down this bandwagon at all. >> I think is smart enough to answer all of it. >> And Flappers should not be representing any of us. >> She should not be out there that's holding up. >> I don't agree. This is her job now. This is >> really this is who we are considering to be our mouthpiece. The voice of Flatbush is who's going to decide what is okay in our Jewish communities and what isn't. Come on. So the one thing we can say is that using a modern term, you can't weaponize the get. You can't use it as a weapon ever. Ever. Ever. >> Thank you. >> You also can't use your children as a weapon. >> Mhm. That's not acceptable. And yet people take sides and say, "Yeah, yeah, you use your weapon. You use your weapon. It's not kosher." Men should not be encouraging other men to refuse a get cuz you're just adding misery to the either get back together or give a get. What? What is this? Just torturing her. Yeah, cuz she's torturing me. Okay, then we got two problems and one does not justify the other. Unfortunately, again, we don't have authority. You can't go to and say who should get the kids. Nobody's going to listen to what did they do in the olden days when people got divorced? Who took the kids? I've never heard a single story about a couple who are fighting over their children. If they're young, they go with the mother. If they're older, they go wherever they want. That's fine. That makes sense. >> Yeah. Using >> But the man can still go visit his kids, right? She doesn't lock the door and never let him in. He's allowed to be with his kids, spend time with them. >> But she's making a point that if a woman does that, then he can hold back again. >> That would be a very nice scenario. That's right. Here's here's another serious problem in in our society. >> Please, >> when a couple get ma divorced, they have to spend more time with each other than when they were married. [laughter] >> They have to communicate more, report to each other, be civil to each other. You might as well get married. >> Forget about that. The father gets to spend more quality time with the kids when they get divorced. That's something that I've seen also. >> You see, according to Toyota, once you get divorced, you're not allowed to even live in the same neighborhood. You're divorced. It's over. Oh no. Now talk to each other every day. Call and give a report. Say where you're going. Don't leave town. They don't let you get divorced. That is horrible. And from that, women suffer more than anybody. In the olden days, the husband didn't come visit the house. You don't go visit to your ex. It's not allowed. >> You take the kids out of the house and you go somewhere else with them. You don't have to stay. >> Somebody has to bring the kids. Yeah. Because you should not be talking to your ex. >> Yeah. >> And also, I don't like this idea that after they get divorced, they become good friends. Look, if you get divorced, can you at least hate each other? >> Yeah. For all time. >> You the least you can do. But you don't see that very often that they get along very well after they get divorced. I've seen it because they're so proud of it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, if you can get along so well, why'd you get divorced? >> Well, sometimes when you live with someone, it's harder to get along with them. It makes sense. It's not crazy. >> Because you're not you're not focusing on intimacy. See, intimacy means I can put aside all things for you. Not I want everything from you. I need nothing from you. I need you. We don't even know what that means. We don't know what that means. >> It sounds so beautiful though. >> How does it say? >> It sounds like such a fairy tale nice beautiful thing. >> And when I say it to a guy, he said, "Wait a minute. If you take away all the things, what's left?" >> Wow. You don't even know what's left. >> No, no. I want both. I can relate to what you're saying. I need you. I get that concept. Strip everything else away. Just you on a lonely island with no materialistic things. It sounds a little bit like I think I'll go crazy after a while. >> I need stuff. >> I need stuff from your wife. >> Yeah. But his point is not from a spouse who >> No. No. Not from her per se. Correct. Yes. Can you dive deeper on that because you brought that out of nowhere. I did not see that coming. You know, you're saying >> look, our grandparents didn't get divorced. You know why? Because they had each other. Why would they give that up? >> Yeah. was frowned upon. >> But they argued about everything. >> Yeah. >> Yes. About everything. >> If you're into each other, argue all you want about politics and about Go right ahead. We have the opposite. We agree on everything. I just don't need you. It's horrible. And part of the I mean, if we get really into this, the culprit is love. Love is destroying marriages more than money, more than anything else. Because people marry for love, not for the person they're marrying. All I want is your love, not the rest of you. So, we're so in love, we get married, and then I realize, wait a minute, she has an opinion. [clears throat] I don't want her opinion. I didn't marry her for her opinion. And she has needs. I don't want to hear about your needs. Just the love. Just the love. Which means I'm married to the love. I'm not following you on this. One second. You're losing me. The love usually entails. It encompasses all of these things that you care about their opinion. You care what they say. You like how they think and everything sounds funny that they're say. That's how you build love. That's how then you don't love that person. If you don't have that pathway to get there, you you ultimately didn't really love that person. >> You're in love with love. >> What's wrong with love? >> That's not the person. >> It's all about the person. >> It should be. It should be. >> You're just saying people don't have the true definition of love. Maybe. >> Yeah. Love is a thing. >> Okay. But you're not against people loving someone. >> No. But the worship of love that goes on in this country because of Hollywood probably everything is love. If your kid is miserable, it's because you don't love him. I do love him. Love him more. Okay, I love him more. Still miserable. Love him more. Love is the solution to every problem. All we really need is love. The famous song. >> Love will keep us together. No, it won't. Love is narcissistic. >> Whoa. Narcissistic. >> It's what I love. >> I love you. How's that narcissistic? >> That's right. I love you. So, you better love me back. That's how love works. Love goes two ways. Otherwise, it's not love. That's what my father used to tell me when I used to like, you know, you don't love food, you like food. Because it doesn't love you back, you can't love it. Right? It's a two-way thing, right? Right. So that's what love maybe just we're misdefying or mis you know what love should be. But you're saying that that love is also narcissistic. If you really truly love someone it's narcissistic. It's we're going back to the same thing we talked about before. >> Yeah. I think you go back. >> There is no love without vulnerability. So before you love me am I necessary to you? You enjoy me. I give you pleasure. I'm your pet. Do you need me? So, what does it mean to love her? Who's the her? Take away all things. What's left? Or even more interesting, when people say, "Why can't you accept me for who I am?" What do they mean by that? I'm looking at who you am, and I don't like it. What do you mean accept me who the way I am? I don't like the way you am. More than that, I don't know how you and neither do you. What is it exactly you want me to accept just the way I am? How are you? Whatever. We're running in circles here. To accept me the way I am means, can't you accept the fact that I'm not you? Whatever matches in me matches you that you accept. But whatever makes me different from you, no. Can't tolerate that. So you don't really want someone else in your life. You just want more of the goodies. To accept someone else means I love the fact that you don't agree with me. I love the fact that you're in independent of me. the way Hashem loves the fact that we sin. Don't tell anybody. He loves the fact that we could sin. That's why he's more fascinated with us than with Malim. Angels are boring. >> I mean, he created us this way. >> He thought this was the perfect design. >> That's right. >> He didn't get it wrong, right? He knew what he was doing. >> He loves it. He loves the fact that we have free choice. Why? >> It's a gift. >> In in choosing a pair of shoes, do I really need to have free choice? I'd much rather he decide. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> God, pick out a pair of shoes for me. I'm sure you'll do a better job than >> Especially a big menu in a restaurant. You know, there's two sides of the menu. You're looking and looking. I can't pick. >> I can't. Can you please give me a new menu that's got like eight items on it so I can pick? >> Yeah. and a husband, a wife. I don't want to have to make that decision [laughter] because I know I'm going to blow it. So, I'd much rather have God make all the decisions for me. House to buy, city to live in. What the only reason God has to give us freedom of choice is because he wants our devotion. He wants our love. If he created us loving him, it's not our love. It's his. If he created me naturally loving him, then he's loving himself. >> Right? >> The only way to get my love is if you let me hate you. >> Free will. And that's how you know the love is real because you didn't have to love me. >> The love for him. >> The love for him. Yeah, that's what >> if you don't mind, just throw back the intimacy uh language that you said before and tie that in. >> Yeah. So, if I can't get past the things I like about my wife, then I haven't gotten to her. Her means what makes her not me. Well, what makes her not me? with the things I don't agree with, the things I don't share with her. She has fears I don't have. She has needs I don't have. She has opinions I don't have. So, it's like if women just didn't have opinions and personalities, they were just cute and available, things would be so much better. actually my first book I gave out 1990 on relationship. So that the uh the publisher asks you to suggest titles but they get to choose. So I suggested this is 1990 I suggested the title of the book should be shut up I love you because that's where all the problems come from. The husband says, "I love you." What do you want? You have to have an opinion. Just shut up and love me. >> Geez, I wouldn't make it out of the house that night. >> In 1990, they said, "Shut up." No, that's can't believe this. >> What' they end up calling the book? >> Doesn't anyone blush anymore? >> Come on. Let's go back do it over again. [laughter] >> What number book is this? [clears throat] >> Seven. >> Wow. So, we we have to take a step back and I I got to find out a little bit more about you. I told everyone earlier that we're going to get to it. So, I I really want to just How did you get to where you are? You you're writing books. You have some uh >> Can we just have one more clarification before >> Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. >> I want to know what he thinks. >> You're here. You can do what you want. >> I want to know what he thinks about Flappers Girl. Is it okay what she's doing? >> Even if she was mission accomplished, she got everybody talking about it. She could have done anything to get anybody to talk about things. It's not a big deal what she did. But she did something bold, right? She did something very creative and very naughty and very very naughty. So what do you think? >> If it doesn't work, >> should we give her a get? >> If it doesn't work, egg on her face. And if it does work, maybe the ends justify the means. >> Really? >> Maybe. >> Oh, interesting. Michael, you hear what he's saying? >> I'm living what he's saying. said if it does work, >> maybe >> it was all worth it and you're okay with it. >> Really? >> So, you believe that there is certain lines you can cross in order to get certain things done. >> But it's a huge risk. >> It's a big risk. >> Yeah. And >> so she had no right to take that risk though. Did she have a right to take the risk? >> Who did she ask? >> Nobody. But do you >> That's a problem. >> She don't I'm sorry. I'm I'm I'm Flappish Girl's protector today. She >> Why? Why, by the way? >> Because I believe in what she's doing. >> You would do the same thing. >> No. >> So then how could what do you mean you believe what she's doing? >> Because I I said it earlier. I said nothing has been done since beating people up. Since then, till now, everyone's been quiet. Finally, it's being spoken about again. I think it's a topic that deserves attention. And if it creates momentum by women sharing their whatever it is they share. >> Isn't this her second rodeo on this? This is not the first. >> It's her many rodeos. >> Didn't she do something else also a little bit? But contrary to what you're saying, she does look deep into the situation and she does. >> Yes. >> She didn't go like the next day after she found out immediately. >> No, she spends time. She's very educated on the topic. Maybe we should have [laughter] >> she educate herself by asking the woman all the details. >> Again, you know, is that how she educates herself? >> I I'm not so uh I I didn't go so deep into it because I don't have uh time for it to be honest with you. And uh but I do have time to care about get refusers and people in the community. And I asked myself the question, well, >> you don't have the time, but you're okay to label people. you're okay to put out there in the world on a podcast now that this guy who was on this podcast with Olivia Lim and he's a get refuser you maybe he is I have no idea I don't know but >> who are you going to >> I wouldn't talk about it I wouldn't just by the way she has zero credibility flappers girls just because she says something to everybody >> no not true so if she's if she's saying something by the way I'm not saying whether she's saying something right or wrong about this person that's what I'm clarifying I'm not into this actual situation I'm into the topic I think it's a topic to be discussed And it's important for us as a community to recognize how much suffering goes on in the world of divorcing both on men and women. >> Oh, now you're saying it both men and women. No, but a minute ago you were saying that get refuser uh she's the woman and must be that you know she's 100% right. >> No, no, I wasn't saying that. Pause, rewind, play. Maybe it came out of that. But in general, I you know, I I don't want to spend too much time on it because ultimately I I believe the topic was spoken about already. I meaning we we you could beat it up so much. >> I got my answer. I mean, I thought what she was doing was vicious and it was totally unacceptable. And >> I don't blame you for accepting it from him and not from me. >> No, it's I'm I'm hearing. Okay. So, he's saying that, you know, this whole get refusal thing is horrendous. It really is terrible. Somebody is, you know, just trying to torture his wife and just try to punish her. He's an animal. He's happy and he's not punishing her. He's punishing the kids at the end of the day. You love your kids. You don't love your It's It's crazy if you think about it. Oh, you love yourself more than >> That guy loves himself more. He's the narcissist you're talking about. He lo He's so devoid of what's going on around him. He just can't see anything but himself. That guy is >> He needs to be beat up, by the way. Not just put pictures of >> But we can He's the guy you got to meet up. There you go. But >> solving problems is one thing. >> Yeah. >> Getting back to healthy living so that they problems don't develop. That would be a lot better to put our energy into that. >> Yeah. >> So, a big problem is that we're all expected to get married, but nobody tells you anything about it. We know nothing. You're 18. Why aren't you married? Because I'm stupid. What has to do with What does it got to do with 18? Does anybody tell anybody what marriage means? What do you do? How do you do it? What is your role? Where do you belong? >> To a certain extent, if I would have known too much, maybe I wouldn't have. I'm saying like, you know what I'm saying? Like, so that's another thing to [laughter] think about. And also, where do you start, >> right? Is there even the ability to put a book ad on this? Can you really write rules and protocols? And >> I think like it's going to change for everybody. It's going to be different. >> No, I think like the rabbi said earlier, education is definitely a big part of it. >> We've always relied on that. Yeah, >> that's our that's our strongest point >> and that's what I want to go back to >> our education. >> I want to go back to >> If you don't believe in that, it's all it's all lost. >> Sorry. I wanted to go back to who you are. So, you know, we have to if you don't mind because I I still want to know um how you got to the point of writing books and being an educator and and being so uh you know well known in the world of counseling and so on. So, you grew up in Crown Heights? >> Yeah. And I went to Yeshiva in in Kabad yeshiva. >> Okay. And I grew up hearing the debas saying, "What are you doing to make the world better?" Everybody else was saying, "What are you doing to make yourself better?" The challenge to make the world better much more exciting. I can spend time on myself and I can become a really good person. How much good will that do? My wife will like me. Michael Jackson said, "If you want to do good in the world, start with the man in the mirror." But isn't there some wisdom in that though to first work on yourself >> before helping others? >> Just went from the flat bush girl to Michael J. [laughter] We're going down fast. >> Yeah. Yeah. Listen, that's what I do over here. Some people don't like it, by the way. And it's okay. It's okay. But >> some people miss you, too, by the way. >> Not everybody needs to like me. >> Okay. There's someone on YouTube, by the way, that comments every week. Where's Hushie? Where's Ushi? She'll be very happy you're back. >> Okay. So not educating, not telling people, you assume. And the same with with raising children. Get married, have children, and do what? Whatever your father did. [laughter] No, I don't want to do what my father did. We're treading water in the most sensitive and in the most vital parts of our lives. We're making it up as we go along. Oh, then you realize you don't know. So, you go out and get a book. Then you see another book which says the exact opposite. Uh, now you're so messed up. I have a nephew who was as a kid was frighteningly smart. I think it was seven years old. And his mother said something to him and he said, "Page 18, he read the book that she was quoting and child raising." [laughter] Smart the kids, you know, you can't fool them. >> So, you're listening to the Reb saying, "Change the world." >> Change the world. >> Okay. And how old are you? What are you thinking? How did you And of course, you work on yourself before you can help change the world. that's a you know you have to be someone that's uh you know uh you have something you know to to offer the world what happened in your life >> so um I finish yeshiva >> okay >> first thing I want to do is go out somewhere in a community and build something and and inspire people and >> right away you're already into it >> oh I couldn't wait >> it's coming from kabad Michael not it's crazy >> they trained them very young to be >> couldn't wait okay >> and this is 1969 9. Wow. So, I go off to Minnesota. There's already a there, but he needs help. He's got a lot of programs going. And somehow we started a program for women because there were men yeshivas for Bali Chuva, but there was nothing for women. So, we started a program where we invited women to come for their summer vacation. We targeted primarily college women. Come during your summer vacation. Stay at the kabad house. We had a big kabad house and we'll learn. It took off. It got out of hand. We have 25 bedrooms, but 102 women show up. >> Wow. And this repeats itself every sun, every summer. And then we said, "Okay, we'll do a winter program." Same thing with the winter program. So for 50 years, I've been talking to women. It it extended to women after college, before college. We had teenagers and grandmothers sitting in the same classroom. It was It was heavenly. >> In Minnesota. >> And that's where you lived? >> Yeah. 50 years. >> For 50 years. 50 winters. >> Those are not just easy winters. It gets it gets rigid cold over there. >> Anyway, so what topic comes up most often? Family. So I I got quite an education. So I'm trying to apply the kidic concepts to modernday problems and particularly in relationships men and women parents and children. So by 1999 I had a book to say. I never had a book to say >> about relationships and it's just grown more and more since then and it's it is so satisfying that I can't believe my masle to be able to do this. It's such a I can't imagine doing anything else for a living. What What could be better? Over 50 years of listening to women. Um, wow. I I I don't envy you from that perspective, but you learned a lot obviously through that process like you said, and you're giving a lot by uh learning all that. Can you tell me some of the highlights that you've learned as um you know mothers, teachers, sisters, aunts, right? Grandmothers, wives. I guess you can't encapsulate it into one sentence obviously, >> which was why he wrote some books, >> right? >> So you can get those answers, >> but I'm not reading books. So uh I'm sure some of our readers will love to read the divinely vulnerable book by Rabbi Minus Freedman. The last >> is this the best one yet? >> It's the newest one. I guess >> it's it could be his favorite right now cuz it's the newest one. But is there one that book particularly that you would like go back to and say that book I was on to something. I that book I had divine providence. I knew what I was what I was talking about. >> The others are primarily about relationships. This is primarily about God. >> Man and God versus man and man. >> So I'll give you a few interesting >> please. If you raise your children, then you get to spoil your grandchildren. >> But if you spoil your children, you're going to have to raise your grandchildren. >> Wow. >> Another good one. >> And you're too old for that. >> Say it again cuz I [laughter] I like this. By the way, they're both two different things what you just said. >> That was my first message on Tik Tok. >> Oh, Tik Tok. You're on Tik Tok. >> Yeah. A million hits. >> Look at that. >> Now she's excited. >> Yeah. By the way, [laughter] took you this long to get to the good stuff because this is a big trigger for me. What you just said. Uh I I have >> one more time. Say the first thing again. >> If you raise your kids, then you can spoil your grandkids. But if you spoil your kids, [snorts] you're going to have to raise your grandkids. And you're too old for that. I like the first one very much, but I think it goes two ways because it's not just saying that if you raise your kids, you'll have rel if you don't raise your kids, right? You're not going to be you're not going to get as far as having relationship with them when they're adults, meaning with their kids. And you're not entitled to have relationship with them if you didn't raise your kids. And I'm not saying in a fancy way. You don't have to be a superstar, but if you're not there, if you're missing, if you go, you know, parents get divorced, you hear stories all the time about they get divorced, the father goes missing, and then he comes back into their life when they're when they're older, >> and you don't get the benefits of it. >> You don't get the benefits of it now. No, no, no. >> So, let's take it a step. How do you raise kids? What does it mean to raise kids? To raise a kid means what pleasure is your child getting out of life? When they're first born, what pleasure do they get? >> Food, eating, >> taste, and touch. >> Mhm. >> Have you raised your child or is he still there? [snorts] You raise a child by introducing a more noble pleasure. That's called raising. raising the the quality of their pleasures. So you start to sing to a child. See, there's more pleasure than just eating and and hugging. >> Mhm. It's not physical, but it's enjoyable. >> It's a little more spirity. >> Mhm. >> In fact, we sing at the table. There's brilliance to this. You're enjoying the food. Sing a song. >> Don't be a >> not all physical. Have some some music. Let it enter your soul. >> Feed the soul. >> And the pleasure that children get from music is greater than the pleasure they get from a lollipop because it really is. It's a more the more disembodied the greater the pleasure. The body doesn't have the capacity that the nama has for pleasure. So after music you start reading to the children. What do you read about people who did great things? Smart people, strong people. Kids love it. You're giving them the pleasure of good character, kindness, bravery, more enjoyable than the music. So we know what we're doing pretty much. You're talking, of course, about Superman and Batman and [laughter] or our version of it. You know, the classical >> I was going to say, which one is yours? >> The classical uh fairy tales. >> Yeah. >> Is never about a Superman. It's always about a simpleton who somehow managed to do the right thing and he gets to marry the princess and he lives happily ever after. So where do you go after that? After that the pleasure of seal, the pleasure of intelligence. You ask them a riddle and they get it. Whoa, do they light up. >> Mhm. >> So raising children means raise them from just biological creatures to better and better pleasures. What is the greatest pleasure? Serve someone else beyond yourself. If you raise a child like that, you got a mench. So that's raising children. What does a child need more than anything else? What does a human being need more than anything else? A child needs to be needed more than he needs to be loved. Loving a child does not make up for the child feeling unnecessary. The fact that you love me doesn't make me necessary. I'm just entertainment. So if I don't get the feeling that you need me, you can keep your love. >> And that's why children rebel. And the parents say, "What? I love him. I love him. I gave him a lot of love." Yeah, but you made him feel unnecessary. You undermined his existence. You can't make up for that by loving. An amazing thing. Yeah. Very deep what you're saying right now. But I think everybody themselves hearing this could relate to what you're saying and they understand exactly what you mean. I learned this from a kid who was in the hospital for observation after trying to kill himself. I went to visit him. He was not a happy person. Let's put it that way. U >> How old was this kid? >> 14. >> How did he try? >> He and a friend together. I don't remember what method they were using, but so they put him in the state hospital for observation together with adult criminals who are also there for observation whether they should go to the electric chair or to go for treatment. It's a prison. The mother of this boy couldn't visit him. You have to have clearance. You have to whatever clergy can go. So she asks me to go visit him. I try to make some conversation. He is not interested. He's reading something. He doesn't even look up. I said, "Your mother's worried. What should I tell her?" Anything you want to say to your mother? Nothing. No. I tried. Finally, he says, "Why don't Why don't you go home? The chaplain has already been here." I said, "What did the chaplain say?" The hospital chaplain. He visits everybody. So what did the chaplain say? The chaplain said, "I shouldn't kill myself because God loves me." I said, "What do you think of that?" Stupid. I said, "You think it's stupid?" He says, "Yeah." I said, "I agree. I can't imagine God loves you. You're obnoxious." He looked up. [laughter] He says, "Yeah." I said, "He created you. Obviously, you're necessary. There's something you can do that nobody else can do." I don't think he likes you. He's stuck with you. He is stuck with you. I go back vulnerable, right? But he doesn't like you. What is it alike? He says, "What if I don't want to do what he created me for? I said, "Okay, freedom of choice. Take a stand. Say,"I want to, I don't want to, but take a position." Anyway, when I got home from that conversation, it blew my mind. He is so right. You come to a kid who tried to kill himself and say, "No, no, don't do that. God loves you. Oh, I should hang around because I'm his pet. He tried to kill himself because he doesn't feel necessary. Useless. So the by saying what what the chaplain said, the chaplain was literally saying, "You're right. You're not necessary. But still, don't kill yourself. God loves you." He's saying, "Get a gerbal. [laughter] Get a >> I like it. I like where this is going. >> We need to be needed more than we need to be loved because we were created out of need, which goes back to the book. >> Wow. >> You're created for a purpose and without a purpose, you cannot tolerate your own existence. >> I like the way that came full circle. And it >> I like that a lot, too, cuz that explains the vulnerability you're referring to. And it usually does. God was vulnerable that he needs to be needed. And that's part of what he instilled in the humans is that it's okay to be needed. And that's the essence. That's the recipe. >> That's the recipe. >> That's definitely a nice way to uh come to an end. Uh before we let you go, uh a few things we like to do on the podcast is first of all, do you have any questions for us? Just anything you want to ask us. >> What else can we do to make this world ready for Mashiach? You know, I was on the Westside Highway today and I saw that Mashiach is already here. So, I don't know what you're talking about. >> Yeah. If this is Mashiach, we're in big trouble. >> You said it, not me. [laughter] Again, ask the question again. One of the things that the Rebel lit a fire under all of us is you're sitting and waiting for Msiah. What are you, a bunch of babies? What are you doing to bring Msiah? I don't know what that means. Like what are we doing as far as what good deeds are we doing to try to elevate the spirituality around us? >> What would it take to make the world ready for Msiah? The Debb's opinion was we deserve Msiach thousand%. Thousand%. We've been through hell and we remain Jews and we remain no question that we deserve Mashiach. So why isn't he here? You may be deserving but you're not ready. So my grandson wants to drive the car. I said to him, you know, I would love to let you drive. You're such a good kid and you deserve to drive a car, but you can't reach the pedal. [laughter] So yes, you deserve, you're the best, you're the greatest, but you're not ready. What will it take to get ready for Msiah? >> Well, I'll give you my answer. You're asking it to us, so I guess we'll each individually answer. I think that [clears throat] my foot being on the pedal is taking a page out of your book in terms of growth. Uh when you're growing and you know, kids are growing up with you, it's part of growing up is actually growing. So, I feel like I if I'm not growing and I'm not hanging around people that are growing with me, I can't be ready to accept Msiah. And I'll be honest with you, I've said this before and I'm sorry to say it to you. I have to be careful how I say this and to all my Kabad friends, I love you all, but I think Kabad sort of tainted the word Msiah for us. And they didn't do it on purpose, you know, that wasn't their intent. But Msiah became a thing like ah if you talk about Msiah, you're kabad or you're not and that's it. And I don't like that personally because I believe Msiah is something that should be on everyone's mind every single day. The gul mashia going to Israel, you shal mdash. Um it seems like from your answer before also that you weren't you're not a mashikhist, right? Or is there a difference between a kabad being a mashikhist or not? I'm just curious about your take on that. Mashikhist and Kabad are mutually exclusive. >> Okay, that's my answer. >> You can't be both. >> Okay, so [laughter] so I got the answer to that question. So I would say is uh for me personally it's about growth and always thinking about your for me personally. I'm always thinking about getting there eventually soon. As much as >> what I understand, >> what's that? From what I I understand about getting ready for Msiah, why are the other nations not ready? We we we can't unilaterally get ready. Mashiach comes to the world. Is the world ready? Which world may the world? What are we doing to get the world ready? What are you doing to get the world ready for Messiah? [laughter] >> I don't know enough about this topic. And I'll tell you, they don't spend a whole lot of time teaching us about this growing up. I'm very uneducated around this. I don't even think most people that I surround myself with know what Msiah really even means. You know, what is it going to look like? And when he does come, what's going to happen after that? Uh what are we supposed to do? I don't know. I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing next week. I I I have no idea what that even means. But I will just tell you my own little like, you know, theory and didn't put a whole lot of thought into this. But could it be that Messiah has a concept that it's just an an idea that it's not going to be a physical thing where a person comes down and riding in on a donkey and big announcement emails are going to go out to everybody. Hey, Mashia sir, come all me. I feel like it's going to be at a place where the Jews in general and the world are going to be somewhat unified where we're all going to have some type of interconnection that we're all going to be proud of our heritage and who we are and it's just going to at that moment you're going to know you're going to feel it like we're back you know the Jewish people are back in a good way back in a good way and it's going to be harmonious it's going to be harmonious and I don't know it's just like a concept that's going to happen and a lot of us are going to end up in Israel. I don't think it means that everybody's going to live all the Jews are going to live and it's going to be we're going to build a new temple and everybody's gonna maybe we're going to build it. You know, it's going to happen. It's just going to look sort of develop. I don't know. Call me crazy, but that just I don't know. Again, I don't know enough about it, but that to me sounds like an interesting type of cont. >> I just want to respond one thing. So, Msiah to me also, and you know, I can't wait for you to respond to this. Um, [laughter] >> by the way, if I'm dead wrong, like if there's real writings on it that no, it's going to be really imperson. It's going to be I I accept. No, I again, I don't know enough about it. So, I'm filling in the blanks. That's all. >> The thing to me that I've learned about Messiah and that and that what to expect is less pain >> for people in our community, Jews, and for in general people in the world. >> Okay. >> Knowing that there's going to be less pain is what I look forward to. In other words, maybe we don't feel enough pain and that's why we don't think about Messiah. But the people that feel pain are constantly waiting for the gula for Msiach. When Msiah comes, I will feel less pain. So that's something that's on my mind. I just wanted to share. But Ramanus, um, please take it away and educate Bashia a little bit and the listeners that understand this side about what the world of Mashia looks like. >> Yeah. The technical side of it is of course there is this thing called Yamaha Mashiach. what will what will the times be like which you describe pretty well but then there is the individual Mr. Mashiach who is a descendant of David Hamelik who will be the king of the Jews because that's the royal family and that's what God promised and so and so and so but beyond all of that the creation has a purpose reaching that purpose that's Mashiach mean meaning to say Mashiach is vital to God more than he is to Will his plan succeed or not? So, we're sure that Moshiach is coming because God's plan can't fail. If you don't believe in Mashiach, you don't believe in God. So, what will it take for God to be content with his world so that Messiah can come and fill in the blanks? just Jews? Obviously not because every prayer, every day of the year that we d we end with alenu. What does it say in Oenu? We're looking forward to a world in which all people serve God together and the wicked will turn to you and all knees will bow to you and we will all serve you together. Not just Jews. That's petty thinking. So, how do we get the world ready? >> I have my suggestion. >> We're going to wrap it up with that, please. Because we gave the answers that we're capable of giving. Now, >> I think it was very apppropo as well to sort of >> come on home with this idea. We just thought because it sounds like a very nice idea that's about to >> all human beings are suffering. >> If you get to the heart of the suffering, it comes from the impression that we are needy. Religion amplifies it, plays on it, feeds on it. Oh, you're so needy. You're so helpless. You're so fragile. You're so dependent on God. Pray. you get down and pray and and and and follow our our commandments, maybe God will be good to you. It's horrible. Psychology does the same thing. You don't even know what your needs are. We'll tell you what you need. You need to heal because your mother never wanted you. Oh, here. Thank you very much. If you think you're needy, you're going to suffer more or less. You're you're going to suffer because it's not true. You're only here to serve because the creator needs, not the creation. Every huge revolution in the world in history came from an idea. Not by a government, not by a an army. It came from an idea around which people developed a government or an army or or revolution. It was one idea. What's communism? One idea that sounded good. Turned out not to be so good. What's a religion? One idea. Judaism is not a religion. Religion came out of Judaism. So to bring Messiah, you got to get the world ready. How do you get the world ready? One good idea that the world latches on to. What is the good idea? I spoke to a very religious, pious group of Christians in Puerto Rico. And I said, "It's time to get off your knees. Stop using God and start serving him." I was waiting for the hall said, "Yeah, you know a good idea." When you hear it, >> it's intuitively so correct. God is here to serve me. What are you doing? You're calling yourself religious. It almost seems like blasphemous to even think about that concept, that idea. But you know when you uh take a couple of hours to explain it. Okay, I hear >> it doesn't take hours. People just turn it around. >> I mean there's a little shock value in it when you hear it at first >> for for religious people. >> Yeah. >> Because we have different but if you're hearing it for the first time. Sure. Wow. So this is what unites us when it comes to this. There's very little difference between Jew and non-Jew. We're all here to serve him. We do it through the tayag mitzvah. They do it through the chev mitzvah. But we have this in common. Stop feeling needy. [snorts] There's something really cosmic. If the whole world ended tomorrow, everything dies out. No sun, no moon, no life, no nothing. It's all over. It's gone. Would that be bad? Would it be a tragedy? This is a scary thought. I remember when we were terrified about the possibility of nuclear and you know the the day after the so what so the world ends who would care nobody left for anybody to care >> so would it be a tragedy >> I guess not >> it's a tragedy when you get left behind >> it's a tragedy for God not to have what he wanted >> the only one who would suffer >> [clears throat] >> Yeah. >> The only one who would >> care God >> cuz we don't need this. If I didn't exist, I wouldn't complain. >> You know what's funny? I have this uh we used to do this chat GPT thing about people. What does Chachet say about you? I didn't about that. >> Yeah. I didn't say it in the beginning cuz like you know I think most people uh at least heard of you and I like that we went through it but I'm reading through it now real quick and I'm like wow. Yeah. He's the only he's one of the only people alive who can say something so controversial that your eyebrows go up and then five minutes later your soul quietly agrees with him. [laughter] I think like you know these are the kind of things that I feel after sitting with you here for over an hour. He talks about marriage like it's holy, dating like it's broken and society like it forgot the instruction manual 20 years ago. Chachi has a lot to say and I think they hit the nail on the head with you and I really appreciate you being here. We do have one final question before you go and that is if you were to uh suggest a guest on the podcast, someone that can fit in that chair and have a conversation with us of growth and vulnerability, who would you select? Who would be that person for us that you think would be a good uh next guest that you could pass the baton to, so to speak? Anyone come to mind? >> Douglas Murray. I don't know who Douglas Murray is. who Douglas Murray maybe. Oh, boy. Here we go. >> This is the guy you don't know. [laughter] He knows everybody and he's like, >> "Okay, so Ushi, why don't you tell us who Douglas Murray is?" >> I guess because it's politics, so maybe that's >> Oh, yeah. >> the one area you fall a little short. You know, >> you can get Douglas Murray on the show. >> I don't know what he would >> because we accept. We'll be here all day. Matter of fact, I'll sit here and I'll wait. You tell me when. I'll wait 24 hours. >> All right. I guess we'll be back next time with Ushi. When Douglas Murray [laughter] is here, I'll just give you one quote from him. Yeah. >> He's not Jewish. Okay. >> He's British. >> He's a journalist. >> Okay. >> Rational. >> He's amazing. >> Well spoken. >> He was talking to to Jordan Peterson. >> Okay. You know who that is? >> A name I know. Yes. Thank you. >> And he said something like this. There's a prophecy that says nations will beat their swords into plowshares and learn war no more. Right. It's on the UN building from from Mishia. But that can't happen. This is him saying that can't happen until another prophecy is fulfilled. From Zion will come forth the Torah. Do you hear what this man is saying? They're talking about politics. They're talking about the Middle East. They're talking about world issues. And he says, "The only way we will have peace and people will beat their swords into plowshares is when the Torah comes forth from Zion. >> Get him on." >> He's not say a lot of people believe that, but Douglas Murray stood up for Jewish people when it wasn't popular to do so. And actually quite the opposite. You know, people were getting cancelled for it. Like it was very easy to get on that train. And he could have, you know, lifted his career. He could have advanced his career, you know, if he would have taken a certain side, but he didn't. He stood up what he thought was right. And he was calling balls and strikes as he saw it. It wasn't a move on his part. He has no major connection to Judaism, you know, prior to this. But he's just a, like I said, rational person and a fair person. And he didn't just say it, he shouted it. He was very sto he was a staunch supporter of his >> Before I let you go, what do you think about this shabas that Trump has been talking about? >> Amazing. Amazing. The prophecy is that before Mashiach comes, the nations of the world will say to the Eden, "Bacov, lead and we will follow in the ways of God." Mr. world. [laughter] He represents the world, doesn't he? >> Yeah, kind of. >> At least in his own mind, right? >> Yep. He's also personifying it. So, [snorts] >> he says, "Jews got to keep Shabas. We'll all keep Shabas." It's exactly the prophecy. What does it have to do with the 250th anniversary of the United States? If you think about it, the United States was created out of people who wanted to serve. And in their countries, they weren't allowed because government interfered with religion. All they wanted was a place where they can serve God without government interference. >> The best of the best. >> Best of the best. But they need to take it one step further. And they're now realizing this. You want to serve God without interference from government. And you want to serve God without interference from religion. >> Mhm. >> Just let me serve my creator. Leave me alone. What are you threatening me? What are you bribing me? Yep. Promising. It's not genuine when it's that way. >> Let me serve my creator. >> Yeah. Connection to God has nothing to do with relationship. Well, hopefully this is connection to the other prophecies which is Msiah Rabbi Manus Friedman. Loved your input. Love your insight. Love what you're doing. >> Love the name of the book and everything about you. So appreciate you being here today. >> Really, it's been our pleasure. You got Ushi out of his office. And Ushi, >> thank you for being here. >> I'll see you all in the next uh 10 episodes or so. So, >> thank you to all of our subscribers. Thank you to all of our comments. Thank you to all the support and the love that you have for Ushi and for myself and for our guests and for the movement of the None of Your Business Podcast. We're getting vulnerable. We're growing and we're doing it together. It's a wrap. [music]