I Sat With Death Row Killers… This Is What I Learned

Okay, we made it. We made it. >> I had to come all the way to Florida. But it was worth it. >> From where were you coming from? It's true. It's like From Florida. >> All the way. >> [laughter] >> I mean, um I the second I met you, I was mesmerized by who you are as a person. And uh you're an artist, but you're also a smart guy. >> [laughter] >> Not to say that artists aren't smart. >> that smart. You have uh I'm going to talk about your Maybe I look smart, but I'm not that smart. I find you guys smart. You smart. Maybe >> Maybe I'm street smart. Right. >> Yeah. You're the book smart is what I meant. You're the uh >> Probably correct, yeah. Textbook smart. Textbook smart, right? That's what I found out that you had your degrees. What were those degrees again that you carry? Let's start with that. Uh undergrad in music. Uh both performance as a concert pianist. And then uh branching to film scoring, so that's my bachelor's, film scoring. Who's scoring? Film. >> Oh, film scoring. Film. Um yeah, film scoring. >> you entered into the artist world, you got those degrees. >> was in the artist world, and then because I became more religious, I found that uh the art that I was into was less compatible with the more kind of uh spiritual lifestyle. So slowly I branched off into kind of my other interests, which would be psychology and I pursued a master's and then a doctorate. And yeah, and I've been working professionally as a clinical psychologist for 6 years. But most of my life I was in the arts and in music and composing ballets. Yeah. >> What a shift. Yeah. >> I I can't wait to get into it. So Mhm. First of all, welcome back everybody to another incredible episode of the None of Your Business podcast. I'm your host Michael Greenfield, and this week I am so excited to introduce to the world a clinical psychologist artist friend uh what I just learned Jose Butxu guy Mhm. named Sharon. Sharon David. >> Sharon David, and um Yeah. >> Sharon, what's your last name? I don't know. Kushner. Yes. Oh, from the famous Kushners. We don't talk about this. >> [laughter] >> So uh >> So Sharon David is good. Sharon David, how many languages do you speak? I speak English and Hebrew. And I can get away with Russian a little bit. And then in South Africa, Afrikaans, which is like a Dutch dialect. Wow. >> speak that anymore, but I could understand it, but I speak fluently Hebrew and English. >> wait to dig a little deeper and figure out how the heck >> Uh boy, I'm breaking a sweat now. >> this happened. Like, how did you how did >> to dig? >> I mean, you ended up as a clinical psychologist helping people in prison. I mean >> Well, I thought if I'm going to, you know, I'd rather learn psychology and help myself and spend all that money than go and spend some a lot of money on a psychologist and I'll get a degree out of it. So I thought, you know, let me get a degree out of it. That's very smart, by the way. Very well said. Uh just I you know, I didn't uh get too into it with the whole Prime Source production in the background and thanking everybody because I like getting straight into it. So everyone knows where we're at, what we're about to get into, but first let me thank our subscribers, our commenters, and the people that are just sharing the love and just everyone that's involved in this community of the None of Your Business podcast. We are getting vulnerable and we're growing, and that's it. It's every week we're just sitting down and breaking down who the people are behind the camera and the mic. And really the whole idea of None of Your Business is that we don't want to get into the actual business of whatever it is that you're in. We want to talk about things that may be none of our business. You do get a pass, by the way, if you uh if you feel like you are if we're touching upon something that you can't talk about. Because I feel like that might come up. Of course. And I've psyched myself up at this point of my life to actually speak about things that may be uncomfortable for me to speak about. Since I have so much insight into so many different areas um of [snorts] of of life, let's let's put it that way, just as a clinical psychologist, rather. And I think it's important for us to share things that are less comfortable about ourselves, because that's where someone else could probably relate to it on a deep level. So don't keep it superficial. You know, you can delve feel free, and then if I feel uncomfortable, I'll let you know. I love it. I feel like that's my life. Mhm. And that's who I am on camera as well, and uh Mhm. I'm starting to get used to the lights and the cameras and breaking through the barriers of who we are and what shaped us to who we are today and where we're going tomorrow. Um you have such a rich background, Sharon David, and >> Mhm. it's not something that I uh take lightly. Uh first of all, I just I appreciate the lifestyle the life that you've had and what led to where you are now in terms of how much hard work goes into it. Yeah, never-ending. Every single day. Every single day. >> So are you more of an artist today or are you more of a psychia- a psych- a psychologist? You're like more of a psychologist? I think I have to be careful how I say this, but I think artists are psychologists. If the true true artists are going to be psychologists, too. So it's a very it's very close together. You find that in especially the background that I come from in classical music, um artists are very very deep thinkers. They're very sensitive and they um they reflect a lot and they they they delve into into domains that probably that most people don't. So so, you know, am I psychologist? Um I I I'm an artist first, for sure. I'm definitely an artist. I'm very creative. Um and um psychology is something that was just really you know, I in I come from a very intelligent family. I have a psychiatrist that is psych- a aunt that is a psychiatrist, an uncle is a psychologist. My brother was an optometrist at at one point. Um so yeah, I mean, intellectual pursuits were always in in my environment. Just the fact that I that I took on artistry and music as from a young age is only one part of me, but the psychology part was always very um was right there for me to explore and to expand upon. So Yeah, I I like how you said that um artists go deep in general, and you can tell by the poetry of the songs they sing, and you know, sometimes also they get into a zone, and you can't enter into that zone. Um let's go back to how you got to this point in your life and understanding who you are, where you're from. Let's talk literally like your grandparents. Where are they from? Where your parents from? Where are you from? Where were you born? Give me a little bit of the history of what it led to you saying, "Okay, now I want to be, you know, a little bit different or I want to shift." So Yeah. you know, you grew up in an environment in that was orthodox, not orthodox No, not at all. Right. who you were, you know, your surroundings by. Just give me a little bit of Did you have a mentor or a rabbi? Just go through that process with me if you don't mind. Wow, that is a loaded question, but yeah, Jewish background, um Holocaust background. My grandmother was in a camp. My grandparents uh Moldavian. They moved to Vilna at some point because of Vilna had a lot a lot of support for Jews after the Holocaust. So they moved there. My mom's side is from Belarus. Um and my dad's side, as I said, is from Moldavia and from mostly Moldavia, and as I said, they both families from my mom's side and my dad's side ended up in in Vilna. That's where they met. Um They had They were married in '69. They had my brother in '69, and then a few years later they moved to Israel. They made aliyah in '74. Those was an a window of opportunity where many immigrants from Vilna were allowed to leave. And well, actually it was, you know, at that point it was Russia rather than Lithuania. And now it's Lithuania. But um so I was born a few years later in '74. And um and then in '81 my parents moved to South Africa. My dad had a opportunity as a genius engineer, electric engineer. He had an opportunity to expand um some opportunities in South Africa. Uh it was during that time in in the '80s during apartheid where a lot of Israeli companies were sending um you know, some >> [snorts] >> some experts to South Africa to expand on whatever area they were expanding on. But um so yeah, so we moved we moved to South Africa in '81, and I was schooled and raised um in South Africa. So my mentality, even though it has a Israeli background, Eastern European, a lot of Eastern European influence, Jewish influence. Um although my DNA does show that we have non-Jewish kind of Scandinavian um to quite a like 10 deg- 10% was quite a large degree, so you know, talking about my great parent my great great-grandparents, they were obviously converts along the line there from Scandinavia. That's in my DNA. I also have Northern Africa DNA, 4%. So even somewhere around there, but even that Some people would say it's a good thing. Uh you know, what's interesting cuz I'll get into it in a little bit, but I do identify with some of my Sephardic um I don't I don't exactly know how to express it, but maybe um intensity or passion, but I don't exactly know It's it's interesting how to, you know, what what one makes out of this whole DNA situation. But um so yeah, so raised in South Africa, raised in a Jewish home, but exposed very much to Christian um influence um at school. During that time, um South Africa was uh you know, we had we we said the Lord's Prayer at school, and so I was exposed very much to Christian principles. And my my first religious experience was actually a Christian one. When my parents moved to South Africa, they sent me to a Sunday school. And so my earliest recollection of having a spiritual experience was actually very Jesus-centered. And at one point my brother came into my room. I was like 8 or 9 years old, and he saw me praying to Jesus and said, "We don't do that." And that stopped. My brother became religious when I was around the time 9 10. He became involved with these Jewish camps, Habonim, Bnei Akiva, all that kind of stuff. And my brother is is an incredible tzaddik. He's a mensch. He's a real, you know, macher. And um Mensch and a macher. He's a mensch and a macher. Brother's My brother's a Mordechai Kushner, you know, he's a real >> Love it. Where does he live? He lives in Toronto. Oh, nice. Um Baruch Hashem, thank God we're always, you know, see him on Pesach or Sukkot. >> Beautiful. So you stopped praying to Jesus. So I stopped praying to Jesus. My brother became religious. I became religious with him. Um slowly, you know, we'd go to shul. But during that time my brother, although very talented, extremely talented in in theater, he got some awards, you know, at school. We had The schooling in South Africa was just amazing. We had It was very rich and diverse. Sports, theater, the whole nine yards. But I gravitated more towards the arts. And again, the arts are less compatible with a more traditional religious um lifestyle. So my brother could have, you know, he he he tread that path successfully. And for me it was a source of great conflict because I had a lot of um a lot of things that that weren't compatible with like your your your kind of regular Orthodox Jewish lifestyle. And especially being in the arts and in theater and being exposed to the bohemian liberal um you know, colorful life that that involves. Um it was always a little bit of a battle for me to kind of, you know, be completely Orthodox. But given the Christian influence that I had um actually was was pretty pretty amazing in terms of how kind of it you know, the Christian the Christian philosophy has a more um I guess less judgmental, less expectations from you. So So that marinating that with my with my upbringing kind of helped me through a lot of difficult times. Um but you know, at some point um being involved in the arts and experiencing some of the dreadful things that go on in the arts in the music industry, I was a prodigy. I was very successful. I was doing concerts in South Africa. I I had a record deal by the time I was 18 19. And certain things that um I'm not comfortable sharing at the moment happened, which made me become more religious and want to kind of leave the music field and tread more on kind of the psychology and and things of that nature. Wow. Wow. So then you went to get your degree, and then >> So So once I left South Africa at the age of I went to Berklee College of Music. Which was where I where I specialized in film scoring. And then I moved to Los Angeles to pursue film scoring. And then I decided it was By the age of 30 it was enough. I had to kind of um go on a on a a deeper journey to kind of figure myself out, figure things out in in general in life. And um I actually did an ayahuasca ceremony with a friend of mine with an amazing shaman. And during my ayahuasca ceremony, that's when I had a revelation I had to move out of California. Uh I was around 31 32 at that point. Um and pursue a psychology degree and at some point be plant medicine practitioner. That's what my ayahuasca I did ayahuasca six times um during that year. I found that to be very therapeutic and important. So that changed my life, and that's actually the beginning of my psychology um career. I moved from California. I did my master's in North Florida. I worked for the Aleph Institute. That's where I did some work for the death row. And then I thought, well, you know, I'm I'm done with my master's. Let's pursue the doctorate. And that's when I moved to to Miami, and I continued my doctorate in in Miami, and I got married, and I got divorced. And I have a beautiful son out of that marriage. And um and I've been here ever since, and he's now almost 12. So that's in a nutshell. That is fantastic. I have so many questions. First of all, thank you for sharing, and uh you know, the the things that you're not comfortable sharing, of course, you know, is not They're only worth sharing, in my opinion, if we're both going to grow from it. Otherwise, you know, if you feel like it's just, you know, unloading, it's and and it's not necessary, then just leave it, you know. Um I we can get back to it at any other time. But first of all, I got to take a big big big big pause. You know, as a clinical psychologist, I'd like to hear your take on ayahuasca. It's very interesting to me because the discussion of ayahuasca is very taboo discussion in general, and I think that it helps people tremendously, but I think it can also hurt people. I agree. So someone who's a clinical psychologist who's gone through that journey, love to hear your take on that. But before we get into that, I got to hear about this death row thing. You sat with a person on death row Say it again. How did that process happen? Like you got a phone call, and take me through that. So I was always attracted to the worst kind of mentality, pathology, real pathology. Um And I was in Jacksonville uh staying at Rabbi Shmuly Novak, who's affiliated with Aleph Institute. That's where I was went for Shabbos, whatever. I got friendly with the family. I did my master's at the McLean um Well, I started my master's there. The the the hours The hours at the McLean Hospital. Um but yeah, they shared with me that they actually do these um you know, mivtzoim. Um How do you say mivtzoim in English? Mivtzah? A special? >> Missionary mission? >> mission, I think. >> Yeah. Yeah, they they missionize, I guess, to the prisoners. And I said, "Yeah, I'd love to to to join you." And so Rabbi Krinsky went with with him a couple of times, and that's when I met That's what my first exposure to the prison system was through Aleph. Oh, I see. So they brought you to a death row prisoner? >> we What was he What was he sitting in prison for? So that particular individual I mean, I can say his name, I think, but maybe I'll just refrain from saying it. >> Yeah, it's okay. But he They weren't sure if he was Jewish or not. Ah. He didn't have a Jewish name, but somehow he found the Jewish God, the Jewish version of God. And he had a whole bunch of books that are were, you know, about tefillin and tzitzit. And so they thought, you know, let me go counsel him for a for Maybe it was a half an hour. And he was on the side, you know, he was >> what was he in for? That you could say. >> terribly gruesome. You know what it was before you went to meet him? I didn't know. They didn't want to tell me before because they didn't want me to have any judgment or any associations. But I looked it up afterwards. And it's honestly, you know, a very disturbing crime. Um him and his girlfriend um plotted Well, they actually killed her grandparents. She was staying She was fostered by her grandparents. It was drug-related, you know, if they stole their credit cards to use to buy heroin. You know, they only stole $2,000, but they, you know, she was the the the ringleader. And he um organized their death. And you know, they they strangled them with with some telephone cords, and then they threw them in a car, and then they had He organized these other guys in Georgia. They traveled across state lines to have them buried there. And of course, they were caught by the police, and that's the end of that. Wow. So So you're going in here. You don't know any of this. Right. >> You just know it's someone on death row. I mean, obviously he's not on death row for stealing from Costco. You know he murdered someone, right? You knew that going in. >> premeditated murder. >> You knew it was premeditated murder, so you know you're getting the Yeah. you know, the cream of the creams, the the what you've been waiting for in terms of, you know, let's go into a person's mind like this. I mean, there there's There is documentaries and movies and shows Mindhunter, I believe. You heard of Mindhunter before? Yeah, sure. >> Right? >> Yeah. It's like all about this type of stuff, like going in and figuring out what's going on. There's There's actually shows that they put people police officers in prison, and they have cameras, and they show you like the life of prison. I'm so fascinated by this topic. Um you know, I've been to prison visiting people, and I've also been >> Willingly involuntarily? I I've I've honestly, you know, when I was in Israel, I was at a demonstration, and I went through the prison system as a kid, and you know, suspended license, you know, that kind of thing, but nothing on this magnitude. And Right. >> Um I'll never forget when I was in a prison selling diabetic supplies, and the purchasing director who I was talking to was showing me the inventory, and suddenly woo woo woo woo alarms went off. And he like shuts the lock from the outside of the closet and tells me, "Don't move." Oh boy. It was the scariest >> a Yeah. It was the scariest 6 minutes of my life. >> Yeah. Yeah, I don't care what level prison it is. It was prison, get me out of there. Oh my god. Yeah, scary. So let's go back into this. >> through that 5 years of that. You went through living in that environment for 5 years. And this is your first exposure. That's why I want to break it down. So your first exposure, you're you're out of the artistry I mean, not out of it, but you're exploring another, you know, lane, so to speak, other than artistry, and um you know, you're you're building up your future now, and you're you're getting an opportunity. This is kind of a fascinating time of your life. Like So, now that I think about it, being an artist is not that it's superficial, but you're entertaining people. You're not communicating with people. Um you're not exercising, you're not you're not engaged. You're giving to people, right? You're giving your gift to people. But there was something up There's something about me, and I love people so much, and I particularly like people who are disturbed because I love God so much. And and and because I've been through very difficult situations in my life, very conflictual situations, it's almost like I feel that there's no there's no there's no soul, there's no person that is not redeemable. There's no situation that is not redeemable, regardless of how difficult it may be in a person's perception and whatever causes them to behave a certain way for self-validation or emotional regulation, and it can be so extreme, you know, as murder, you know, for someone to reclaim their power cuz that's really what it's about. A person that does that is something someone so powerless that they go to such an extreme just to feel like they have power. You know? So, they eliminate another life. That's how low they are. To reclaim that sense of of self. It's obviously a little bit more complicated than that. But I found that that just fascinated me. That at that time, it was enough after 5 years. But maybe it's a sense of narcissism that I have, feeling that I could probably help them, save them. Um my understanding of of of God, of myself, of whatever the case may be. I just felt compelled that I had to do this kind of work. So, you know, so yeah, I put my my entertainment skills on the side for for a number of years. Now, I'm kind of coming back to it, but it it was so and it's still very interesting for me, but it was certainly at that time intensely interesting for me to meet the sickest people I could on the planet, and I did. But thank God, and I'm and I'm grateful to have had that privilege, you know, to to meet people who are who are criminally insane, who will never leave prison in their lives because of the crimes they committed and because of how dangerous they are, but it was I feel privileged having having taken the risk of of not having a security guard with me and just sitting there and talking to them. And and there were complaints about me. What were the complaints? Why is he sit sitting cross-legged across from this, you know, this murderer in the you know, cuz I really wanted to connect with them. That's the kind of psychol as a person who just sit there with stand with a coat and marks cuz some of them, you know, they ate or you know, whatever they slept. I wasn't interested. I wanted to connect with these with this these neshama, this soul that was thrown to the pits of hell, to the lowest lowest point of that exists on this planet. For me, they were so it's still very very intriguing. And I did, I connected with individuals that were really disturbed, but I learned so much from them, and I did learn that there's not one situation that any person can go through that they cannot be saved or redeemed from. There's nothing on Earth that can that should compel a person to suicide, and I'm still very passionate about it cuz in our community, I keep on hearing people who are in so much distress, and religious people, people who have God in their lives, but they're experiencing such level of distress that that, you know, they they they find it is inescapable. And and my my mission, I guess, my message is that that's a lie cuz there's nothing on Earth The universe isn't big enough for God to just to save you to to be there for you. But it just takes that belief. A person has just to make that switch. And I've seen it. It's not like I'm talking out of a textbook. I've seen it. I've been with people like that. People who have had no who have had everything taken from them find some light, some light in the darkest darkest darkest darkest place. Wow, I'm so fascinated by the site. >> It is fascinating. >> I I got to break down when you went to this first prisoner and and and pause and just tell you that when I interviewed Jonathan Pollard, Mhm. the scariest thing to me that he shared was the amount of suicide that goes on in prisons because there's nothing that they can feel redeemed from. And you know, let's go straight into that in terms of you're going to now visit your first exposure to a prisoner who happens to be on death row. Yeah. And that is your first exposure. Yeah. And you're going in and you don't know what he did, but you know it was capital murder, and you're psyched. You're you're getting the you're getting everything you've ever wanted from your passion standpoint of what you want to know. And you don't At that point, you didn't even know what you wanted to know, but you but it was there in front of you. So, >> I'll never forget him. I'll never forget his face. >> You got to tell me, what happened when you went What >> attractive man, too. He wasn't the you know, you'd imagine someone just decrepit and dirty. No, this was a blonde man with blue eyes, very well taken care of. He looked clean, which is also fascinating to me. I don't know if he was someone's [ __ ] or something. Somebody was taking care of him, who knows, but he presented himself really well. What what was the first Tell me Tell me Tell me how. Tell me Take me through that, please, if you don't mind. Try to tap into that a little bit and just, you know, remember the scene when you're walking in your first thing. Did you shake his hand? Did you hug him? Did you say hello? How did you communicate with him? You know, this is it's it's a jail prison, right? You have bars. You can't. And I have to stand I mean, you did mention that you you changed that down the line. Meaning you you later on on death row, but when I did when I worked in maximum security and confinement later on, I mean, obviously it was a stupid question, right? Meaning No question is stupid, but it was right? Obviously, you're in a prison, right? You're like you're like, "Hey, Michael." No, we're not. Uh okay, so there's a wall there, but it's a glass wall. Is it like No, glass wall. So, it's just uh iron bars. So, he can reach out to you. Like he could, but I have to I have to keep my distance about a foot, and I'm standing there talking to him. And he's standing or sitting? He's standing. He's going around his cell. He was showing me a book that he's reading. And he's walking in his cell. What does it look like, his cell? It's probably the size of this of that carpet of that red carpet. Okay, so it's like a 4x4, literally. Right? 4x4 has a bed in it. Has a bed in it. Has a toilet and that's it. And that's it. And that's his life. That's where he's sitting there until he dies. That was him. And then when I walked out the other side, there was another one that looked like, you know, the Silence of the Lambs, Hannibal Lecter. So, the but it's so the contrast of that. That That That guy was scary. That guy didn't want to talk to him, but this guy, there was a real connection. He was a young man just 20 at the time. Must have been 28, 29. Wow. Okay, so tell Take me through it. So, you're going in. Hi. Hello. What are you asking him? What are you How do you break the conversation? And what did you ask him that was most fascinating to you? I can't remember like the the particulars of the conversation. I won't be able to remember. Then you can tell me what you do remember in terms of what fascinated you about him or what you learned from him that was your kickoff to this journey of yours. You know, like what you know, did he Did you make a connection with him? Profound. Profound connection with him. So, I I don't know if I was played because people on that level Again, this is a guy on death row, okay? And and he was charming, and he was handsome. So, I don't know if his demeanor shaped, you know, his if he shaped himself is the way he communicated with me in a way that would be flattering to me. I I don't know cuz that's that's actually how they operate. People who are on who are sociopathic or on the narcissistic spectrum, they have tremendous charm. So, I don't know if I was charmed, but there was charm in the conversation. There was a sense of connection. I want to help you, you know, this you want to call it transference in psychological terms. Um but but yes, there was a definite sense of connection the way we communicated with one another. We spoke about faith, about God. He found God. He told me that um it was profound for him to make peace with God that he knows that once he's going to die, he's okay with God. So, that was that was a um profound thing to hear, you know, having committed he's he recognizes his crime. And he's he found peace with himself, and he came across that way. At one point, he pressed himself against the bars and looked deep into my eyes, and I looked into his pupils, and I and I saw that although he he made peace with himself, there was that that sharpness that was indicative of somebody who of a criminal, of a killer, you know, cuz that's to organize something like that. Again, it's it's complicated cuz when you're stuck in an environment, like when a child is being punished, you know, you you you know, go to your room and close the door and stay in for an hour. So, the kid is suffering at that time, right? He doesn't know watching TV or whatever it is, but the chances are that, you know, he'll do a little boo-boo again when he comes out of it's hi, right? During that time, he's shaping his behavior. He wants to look good to tatty and mommy, whatever case may be, >> [snorts] >> but the the test is in time, you know, releasing him from that room and seeing how you know, exposing him to the real world. So, a lot of these prisoners that are better behaved, so to speak, in that environment cuz they're controlled, and they have to behave a certain way to get privileges. Um so, even though it seems like they may be rehabilitated, the real test is if they're released, and the guys that I worked with, most of them won't be released um because of level of crime and whatever the whatever their sentence is decided that no, they uh a danger to society. So, this guy clearly um you know, he had a unanimous decision. Actually, he did not have a unanimous He was challenging that at that on that during that time that year, there wasn't a lawyer in Florida um with a jury had to be unanimous in a death penalty. And so, he still received the He was just appealing it, but he was he was losing his appeals. Uh but I think that the jury was like the one person decided he should not get the death penalty. So, he was actually appealing that, but he lost. Wow. So, you feel you feel like he had some sort of redemption through his discussions with you like or you saw that he can have something like There was something there. >> there. There was something there. >> There was something there. We all make mistakes. Right. But that they're doing uh they're not doing mistakes. They're sick. They're they're They're they're sick. So, it's an interesting thing you learn in psychology. Um if someone is sick, you they don't If someone's incompetent, they can't stand they can't You can't we can't kill them. They Death penalty is not appropriate for somebody who's not competent. You have to be competent and sane and normal and not sick in order to get the death penalty. You have to be a sane person. You have to know the the the the judicial system, what you've be what you've done wrong and you have to come you know, you have to be cognizant. >> That's a good point. So, you can't really call them sick, right? >> You can call them sick. >> Interesting. In fact those who are there are schizophrenics who are in prison but they're competent. They know the difference between reality and fantasy. Um there's periods where they are competent. Um but I worked in forensic hospital too where it was undecided whether they were sick or not. Cuz if you're if you're mentally ill, you don't belong in a prison. You belong in a hospital. Did you ever experience a prisoner that was faking it or you thought it was faking it? Like you know, because he was trying to get out of something and like >> Yes, there was one case that my supervisor wanted me to study. Um and I think he's still in a forensic hospital. This was 6 years ago. And um but he had this delusion where he was in the Truman Show that everybody was playing a character and everything's scripted. Um so, that and it's not the case, right? People People have We live in a free world. There's But he had this delusion of everybody's playing a role. Um so, he's a little bit paranoid. He murdered his wife. >> [snorts] >> Um and so, he was in the forensic hospital and they were still evaluating him over a few years. They were undecided whether he was actually competent whether he was truly delusional or not. And I remember doing a test and there were certain things that he said to me that suggested that he was aware of his delusion cuz he at one point he told me that he has this delusion where and so, a person who's truly delusional doesn't believe that they're delusional. So um I don't know what my supervisor did with that. I was I wasn't licensed at that point, but it was a very interesting Yeah, I mean so so many interesting ones. I have so many questions. I'm going to keep going through them because I'm going to like pick on certain of experiences and I want to go back to the artistry as well in just a minute and the ayahuasca journey and all that. Um Did you ever meet someone where you felt bad for them? Yeah, all the time. I do do you feel like >> that mean to feel bad? Like to be compassionate? Yeah. To have [clears throat] empathy? Yeah. Of course. It happens a lot. >> a constant. That's a constant with the And it's draining. That is draining. Do you Do you have someone I feel for so many people. Do you have Do you feel It's true, but >> It's so draining. No, but the feel for so many um people that are I think that in prison it's a whole another level. I'm saying. >> I think another question not a not not that it's a better question, but do I feel people Do I meet people or clients that I don't feel bad for? Yes. There are those that I don't feel bad for. People who are choosing to just be obnoxious and to milk the system and to take advantage of people and to be victims. >> you don't call them sick. What do you call them? What are they? Well from a psychological point of view, they they're sick if they meet a certain diagnostic criteria. Right? So, that you know, if they have a diagnosis, we can say they're mentally ill. They have a You're just saying they're terrible people. But some people are just narcissistic, absolutely. Some people don't give a damn and they especially what really gets me is that you know, when those people who've created so much heartache and distress playing victim. That I don't have that I don't feel bad for. And I'm often very short with those kind of clients. Which is a good thing. You know, you empathy you need it needs to be appropriated. You know, there's appropriate circumstances where you can show empathy if a person is um receptive to it. But people who are not receptive to empathy, you need to do a whole different strategy. Be a little bit more um You want to always communi You want You want You want people to grow. But the means of communication would be a little different with somebody who who himself or herself doesn't have any empathy. Interesting. >> makes any If that makes any sense. >> Yeah. I mean, I'm just thinking about feeling bad. I'm >> I'm trying to I'm translating the your >> done. Yeah. The way things are you know >> You're breaking the norm. The artist in you was coming out. Uh she Let me ask you did Yeah, I would entertain them sometimes. I'd walk into you know, into confinement singing a Whitney Houston song, you know, the greatest love of all. >> [laughter] >> I would entertain them and they would laugh, you know, and I was yeah. >> I was bringing light into that environment and I thought I I feel strongly that therapists who are working in that environment, social workers, psychologists are to bring light into that environment. Let me ask you the obvious question which I'm you know, it's nagging at me a little bit is that do do they deserve this? They're in prison. Let them rot. I'm not God. You know, they've already been sentenced. They've already been judged. You know what I mean? I'm not God. I'm there to provide assistance, acceptance, to facilitate personal growth that can still occur in that environment. We're all in prison to some degree. You know, over there it's just externalized. It's it's you know, they could they don't have any self-control so the control comes from the outside. Most of us have self-control so we don't need that from the outside. But we're all somehow stuck in in some form of of mitzrayim of prison, right? Um so again, I'm not God. I don't play God. I don't judge. >> that answer. Did you ever feel literally like your life was in danger? There were times, sure, where some of Yeah, where some don't like my way particularly. >> happens? Um I've been in some dangerous situations where I felt scared. Um I'm really good with animals. >> [laughter] >> I'm really good with animals. And when a human being can resort to that level of rage, that kind of rapid behavior, I felt that my skill with animals, cuz I've been in situations with animals where animal uh um if you if you soften yourself, I have skills to deal with those kind of people. Again, it comes from my training. Having worked in that environment, but when you soften yourself up and you don't present yourself as a threat. Aggression always meets aggression. So, in the situation where I was and the security was like a few minutes 1 second could be too late. >> [snorts] >> But, a few minutes later where where the only thing I could do is just is to is to be be defenseless. Not be defensive or scared and just like listen and and still be there for a schizophrenic or you know, big dude one of a sudden having voices feeling distressed um getting really angry and and the only thing I could I could do instead of getting scared is just getting more and more soft and more cuz people people are mentally ill. They're very sensitive. They know what's going on in there. They're hyper sensitive. Hyper hyper If if a person's angry, the best thing you can do is just relax. Cuz that you're getting angry is going to make them angry and psychotic. Because it's again it's a power thing. I'm going to overpower you. Overpower you. Over So, when you give them that power and you make yourself less you humble yourself. You make yourself smaller that that works. And I've been in situations where I've seen that that that's the approach. >> I feel like what you're saying is a recipe in life. Parenting, having friends uh 100% >> like when someone gets angry like what is your response when someone I'm asking you if a child gets angry or a friend gets really angry and you know that this is their What have you learned in life that can teach me uh that will give me the tools to understand people better. That will allow me to be a better person when it comes to dealing with narcissism or anger or negativity or children talking back at you or etc. When a person is emotionally charged and of course I'm not perfect and I have failed in that and I do fail periodically less so than when I was a child but the best thing a human being can do is listen. And when somebody's emotionally charged they it's they want to say something to you. They want to communicate something to you. And for you to just go back and just throw you know just back and forth and like like a ping pong effect. That's not going to work. It's going to make them more aggressive cuz there's things that power control that come in. Person wants to overpower the situation blah blah blah. The best thing you can do is listen. If somebody's emotionally charged and they have an issue, listen. Listen. And it depends. Some people need to be really really heard and maybe you have to listen for a little bit longer and it gets frustrating right? And then and it challenges your own ego cuz you also feel disempowered and you also want to assert your righteousness that you know, your point of view. But, the best course of action is to listen. Is to listen and to be kind. And and and it's a skill. There's there's obviously there's a way where the person needs to know that you're listening. The person needs to know that you're being heard that they're being heard. And when the person makes that connection this person actually heard me. They they heard what I have to communicate. You know, and I'm talking about it's a matter of degree. Sick people have all kinds of bizarre things to communicate. Unresolved things from childhood and whatever, but normal people they want to communicate something. The best course of action is to just listen. >> How do you respond that person knows that you're listening when you said that a minute ago? So, it's reflective listening. You summarize what they're saying, but it has to it has to be genuine. You have to really listen to what they're saying and you give back to them what they're it is they're saying. So, you're you're suspending your own point of view. Right? You have to do that. That takes courage, control, confidence um but you you what they're saying to you you you summarize and you give back to them. You paraphrase. You know, you're saying this to me. You're saying that to you. You know, you find the prison system interesting. It's like I'm I'm mirroring mirroring what you're saying, but truly making a connection, you know? I'm I'm loving what you're saying. And you know, speaking of love you mentioned before you fell in love with God. Mhm. When did you fall in love with God? So, as I said my first religious experience was a non-Jewish one um which has carried me through my entire life and I'm observant Orthodox and I believe in the Orthodox tradition Orthodox Jewish tradition. Although I think that a lot of it is outdated. I'll be honest with you. I think that there's some things that that that these misconceptions of of other faiths that are not accurate having being exposed to both but Can you give me an example of what you're saying? >> um One small one that I would understand I don't know if I want to get into it now so much. >> You don't have to get into it. Just give me an example and then move on right after that. Yeah. So So, that's really interesting. I feel uncomfortable talking about since my you know It's it's a it's interesting I thought all of a sudden I've entered a space where well, I'm kind of needing to you know, to to put these these sentences together. But the love of God I think I think that you know that I've learned from my non-Jewish friends is has been superior in many ways in my life in my own personal journey the forgiveness you know, for all the faults that you may have the sins the the things that you that are insurmountable to your nature um I'm I'm glad that early in life I learned that from my Christian friends that even that even your your imperfection is so it is celebrated by God. I think that concept of even though you're a sinner even though you're faulty even though that God loves you and God forgives you and God welcomes you and God cherishes you. And it's something that I found missing in the more in the in the hard expectations of of Jewish life. You know, and that and that has been a really difficult journey. And um So, yeah so the I don't know if that answers your question. >> it it exactly answered my question. >> When I when I comprehended when I when when it when it kind of clicked for me that I or we we cannot possibly love God as much as God loves us. It's absolutely not possible for that we're human. And we are guilty of so many things and ashamed of so many things. There's so many things that are going on in our in our in our consciousness that prevents us from from um experiencing that level of of of that of that love that God has for us. And I I I wish I experienced it in the in Jewish context but I but I you know, I have in in Lubavitch you know, growing up and going to Chabad there was that but it's but it's but the expectations are so much that it's it's it's it's hard. Especially if you're an artist and you and you have I don't know [snorts] I I have all kinds of interesting things going on in my personal life where I find it really hard to to reconcile um my relationship with with with the Jewish God or these are conceptualizations given all the demands. You know, and I was very religious I was much more religious Orthodox at one point and I got married and I got divorced and I was exposed to the whole bad side of Yiddishkeit the base din and and like it godless. Just just gnarly so gnarly. There was just a lack of any compassion and any connection and any kind of was was so alienating and dark and and horrible. So, I don't feel God over here and this is a a godly supposedly a godly structure. I don't Where where is it? I have a person who's who's lying. Right? I have it it's all it's all fa- And and you guys are like pretending to be like to have knowledge of of you know, you have like ins with God like you have a this this this relation this superiority. Where is it? I'm not feeling it. I'm not seeing it. So that was disappointing. And so again I guess you go through life you start coming to terms with really what is going on and what is truth. And what makes you fly? What makes you shine? What makes you want to give? What makes you grow? What makes you And it can be different things for different different strokes for different folks. I just in my journey my journey um being a religious Orthodox Jew is extremely difficult. Extremely difficult. >> I First of all, thank you for sharing that. Yes. I like that perspective. I really do. And just to break it down for those that may have you know, taken one word that you said a little bit differently it's that you saw with your non-Jewish friends their unconditional love so to speak. >> Yes. >> And their connection to God regardless and you were missing that in your particular journey. >> Yes. >> And it's unfortunate. I have to tell you that I do see it in Chabad and I see it obviously in the Nachs of the world and in Eretz Yisrael every step of the way. I'm probably not in the best >> hasn't ended, right? >> of course. And I'm just saying so it's wide open. It's all dear lovers of God, lovers of Jews, lovers of people. And of course you're exposed to it more than it was then, but it's such a fascinating insight that you were seeing it so much more from the opposite, which is, you know, and again I thank you for for sharing that. Um But again, I'm I'm speaking of, you know, cuz I see it most of my clients in the field of psychology are not Jewish. And and and then why doesn't Judaism spread its message more globally? I mean, if anybody did, it's Jesus. Jesus spread the Jewish message, although it got lost in translation cuz of cultures and whatever it is, but it's so missing. It's so missing and a lot of anti-Semitism that I find, cuz I have open conversations with is that Jews are so are just kind of are so insular. They lie is they're not you know, they're not compassionate people who are not of their own faith and I find that really problematic. >> [snorts] >> Yeah, I agree with you. I think that we can do a better job in promoting, you know, the love >> I'm I don't I believe in Halakha, I believe in I keep kosher, I keep Shabbat, so you know, don't don't think that I'm I'm just saying that it's a conversation that needs to be had. >> That's what I mean. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. But you said you fell in love with God at a certain point. So after that point of, you know, when you were a kid, it happened at a certain point in your life, right? Do you remember that thing? Was there a certain instance or something it was just like >> with that love of God stream Yeah, yeah. I have a memory when I'm at the piano, when I was around 8 or 9 years old and I had I was just jamming, I improvise. You're you're you're not well aware. And I remember this overwhelming feeling that I had. And my best jams growing up, my parents were not religious, was on Shabbat, usually Friday night. I'd just leave the table and I just felt this this this inspiration on Friday, right? Friday night. And I remember saying to myself, I never want to forget this feeling. I was I was 9 years old. This whatever feeling I have now that is just so open and this music and the sound, I never want to forget and often when I play now in my best moments, my best improvisatory moments, I go back to that and I have that same sensation, same feeling that I had when I was 9 years old. It's a that that purity, that innocence, that that transparency. So [snorts] that was one of a very memorable experience that I had. >> Was that connected to God, though? That was that was a very godly, spiritual type of thing. So even at 9 years old it reflecting on it now, you know, it was more spiritual. Then it was just an experience. >> always very spiritual. I was always very maybe it's in the music, but always connected to to something other than myself. I love that and going back to the ayahuasca journey. So when I explored the idea of ayahuasca, I spent time visiting shamans and I interviewed them and went through the process and I recognized that what what I like to say at least is for now it's not for me. And I believe that it can help a lot of people, but throughout seeing what it does, I also felt like it can hurt people as well. I agree. So I'm just I'm curious your take as a clinical psychologist, someone who went through the process, the fact that it helped you in your life tremendously. What can we learn from that as a society? And when it comes to people who are seeking different plant medicines or just I think the people who are seeking plant medicine or just seeking any form of help, it's just like, you know, we you know, you don't want to take a hard drug and get addicted potentially or have the downsides and you know, side effects. So you're looking for something else. In your experience, what should that person do? That person that's experiencing that world of angst, anxiety, uh depression and there's a lot of it going on. So I'd like it's a fully loaded question that I'm asking you. You can answer it in any which way you want, but my real question is tell me about your experience and answer to me what should people look for when it comes to I want something better, I want to heal, I want to grow. And tell me about it through your experience of ayahuasca, please. And as a clinical psychologist >> So ayahuasca is not for everybody, for sure. Neither is any of the other psychedelics, psilocybin, ketamine, MDMA, just the whole nine yards, the whole plethora of of psychedelics. It's not for everybody. And medicine is always for people who need it. Not everybody needs medicine. Some people are and some people are successful and functional in their lives. They don't need something to destabilize them because it can be very destabilizing. I have a few cases of people who who took ketamine even and completely destabilized them. That other worldly experience challenged them, challenged their conception of God, they were religious people from and so it's very important to be assessed before. I'm not into people just blindly going and doing these ceremonies. Um some benefit from it. It's a hit or miss thing. From a clinical perspective, it's very important to have somebody who who assesses you and and lets you know whether it's appropriate or not and and a professional. You know, these things are hardcore. They're hardcore substances. They're not to be played with. Some people love to go on roller coasters. Some people love to jump out of airplanes or or bungee jumping, whatever the case may be. Taking a psychedelic to that effect like ayahuasca you it's it's it's risky business. It's very risky. It's not for everybody. It's not for the faint hearted. You have to be prepared. You have to educate yourself about it. And do you actually need it? Maybe you need something else. Maybe you just need a a partner, an maybe you just need intimacy. That could be solve everything for you. Why do So people are it's a fad. It's a very fashionable thing. You know, it's it offers a lot of um Some people benefit A lot of people do benefit from it. I don't know if they benefit from the ayahuasca as much as they benefit from the from the um you know, the other people, this this the universal the universality of it, you know, the group that comes together, the kind of healing, the community. I don't know ayahuasca is a conduit, but the fact that they're now involved with a group and they have acceptance and that is a variable that is very important, right? Great point. Yeah. The the the sense of community and belonging and and togetherness. So if you were if you had I'm asking you. I'm going through if I'm going through a part of my life where I'm seeking something that I don't know what it is and I hear this a lot and you know, quite frankly, I hear from more people that would look like they're successful than not, right? So you know what I mean? Like the people that are oh, that guy's great. He's successful. He's great. And he's like, I don't know. What am I doing with my life? What's Yes, there's that. So I'm hearing that a lot and I'd like you know, to hear from you. Um what's your take on it? What should a person do when they start feeling that way? That's really my question cuz When there's something missing. Yeah, cuz it can come up in the 30s, it can come up in the 40s. It comes up. So obviously And I think we'll wrap up with this discussion. So because There's so much to take out of this. I'm just saying we're going in so many different places. >> that's the beauty of it. It's really improvisational cuz I I wasn't prepared for any of this. Good. I I do want to talk about your artistry a little bit before we wrap up, but let's let's head there so we know where we're going. You know, taking drugs or psychedelic is attractive, it's an attractive option. Especially with with people that, you know, that you're mentioning, the population of people who are successful, that worked so hard in their lives and they feel like something's missing. I think it's very dangerous because some of those people will completely mess them up. Yeah, so forget the drugs. >> it can all of a sudden challenge them. I got it. So I'm asking you a brand new question. I'm coming to you and I'm asking you to write a thesis, write a book, write a report, write a solution. Yeah. There is a point in many people's lives that they start feeling what am I doing? What's happening? Where am I heading? Feeling of anxious, feeling of coming to depression. Before you hit that point, what can a person do? What should a person be asking themselves or doing? That's my specific question in terms of this regard. It's a it's enormous question, right? It's so many I'm not even sure how to answer that. But learning, going on a healing journey, um exposing just educating yourself about different things, finding a therapist, finding a counselor, finding somebody competent, a rabbi, you know, to talk to, someone who can can really a professional. Um I have to think about that question cuz I'm Yeah, but that's actually the best piece of >> Well, and I'm all of a sudden I'm tired. Yeah, no, but that's >> [laughter] >> That's that's actually the best piece of advice you can give someone in my opinion is that when you're feeling that feeling that comes out of nowhere of like where am I heading, what am I doing, go speak to a professional. Yeah, for sure. >> the best thing you can do. And and and and I think that you you don't have to say anything else. That is that sums up to what I was asking. Um your artistry. I've walked into a room once Mhm. and I have seen you with your eyes closed Mhm. tapping into that 9-year-old self. Now I know where you were. Now I know emotionally where you were. And there we were with some of the most world's amazing singers and you're playing on a piano and you're just mesmerizing to watch. You're so it it's so beautiful to watch >> What a gift God has given me. It's amazing. It's amazing that yeah. I'm I'm in awe of what God has given me and more so than ever at this stage of my life. That's really what I want to do. I just want to play for people. You know what I'm saying? I just want to play for you've done a lot of performances with Gad Elbaz. Tell me some of your highlighted moments of your career and that's what I want to wrap up with in terms of your artistry. Where did you feel like wow, I can't believe I just did that. It was recent in Toronto. Where I played for a family. An event during Chol Hamoed. They were so appreciative of Chassidim, you know, real Chassidim. And they were so appreciative of the things that I was doing on that piano and I mean there's so many of those moments. I I love accompanying artists. I never had the voice to to pursue my own solo career. I wish I did. It would've been different but but I never had that, you know, that capability. Um and as an accompanist I'm selling myself short a little bit because I'm a performance artist. And so there's a few people that that book me every now and again in in Canada and in Miami as well. That appreciate my artistry. Again, the things that I do I mean when it comes to Kumsitz and performance it's great. It's great. Um and as of recent I've I'm beginning to find my audience in the Jewish, you know, in the Jewish population. Um when I'm taking like Niggunim and I'm just doing something very classical, very kind of doing my own take on it and improvising and just creating my own thing. Can you give me a quick example of what you're talking about? >> Like I could take the Alter Rebbe's Niggun, right? You're familiar, right? >> Sure. And then creating harmonies in the likes of Chopin or Beethoven and just using the the the skill and sensibility of of the highest musical understanding and to to to to pour that into the Niggunim recently has been like really magical and I'm I'm really looking forward to exploring that more. Me too. I'm looking forward to you exploring it. I got to I got to hear >> So the recent concert I did in Toronto was was so I opening just how wow I was doing my thing and like they actually appreciated this Chassidim are actually appreciating what I'm doing. It was really something I haven't experienced in many years. The last time I experienced that was when I was a teenager concertizing, you know, the works of of Chopin and Rachmaninoff, whatever it is. You know, where an audience primarily non-Jewish were appreciating classical music. And here now, 30 years later, um 40 years later almost 35 um you know, doing it in a Jewish context was really rewarding, really really rewarding. >> I'm excited for this journey of yours then for you to come back into that. >> cuz classical music harmony chromaticism, the way the way the scale, you know, the the the interrelationships between, you know, the fifths and the fourths and the seconds is so magical. It's so incredible that pop music doesn't have room for that. Pop music is amazing in its own way, the vibe. It's all about the vibe at the end. But there's something about the way classical music takes you to really deep deep, you know, like you get chromatic chord that's unpleasant. Then you get a chord or a progression of chords that wow, like just lifts up your food like your mood. Like major, more major, more major and then augmented and the relationships are unbelievable. And to take a religious, a spiritual, a sacred melody like the Alter Rebbe's Niggun and apply that apply that through the movements that it progresses is for those who who can resonate with that is is an experience like no other. Do you have a recording of your show? >> some. Well, not the one I just did, no. No, but I'd love to see I got to play definitely. So I'm going to absolutely I'm going to record them and write the music. Yeah. That's my next big project is to create is to create kind of like, you know, like Chopin had his preludes. I love that. It'll be like a prelude in the Niggunim fashion. >> to tell you something. I when I walked into the shul in Miami and saw you playing with Joey Newcomb, I was like, okay, all right, I hear that, you know, but I want you're an intimate guy. You're the guy that when you want to throw an event, you want everyone to remember and tap into that intimacy part of your depth of your you know, music and harmony. That's I think, you know, where you shine the most. I I can't tell you how enjoyable this discussion was but we we have to wrap up but uh first thing is uh >> [laughter] >> Thank you so much for allowing me to just I I appreciate I appreciate it. Do you have any questions for me? I don't have any questions for you. Okay. I just appreciate appreciating you tremendously. Thank you. I'm so grateful. >> appreciate you. Before I let you go, do you have any recommendation of if you were to bring on a guest and you would suggest for me to bring that guest on the podcast. Who's someone that you'd be like, oh, that would be someone that you should interview. That's someone that I've wanted to interview, you know. Who would be that person? The first thing first that came to mind is Kalman. Kalman? Kerry Wollschlager? >> Yes, Kerry Wollschlager. That would be a fun You know what? You're right. You're right. We should get him on the program. I like that. >> Kalman. I mean Kalman was he went from trading airplanes to >> Exactly. to like making Kumsitzes and and brilliant Brilliant. >> intelligent, creative I have a lot of respect for him. You know what? I like I like that recommendation. And I'm going to do it. And you know, and then of course I got to get Gad. I got to get Gad Elbaz. It's uh Yeah, of course. You got to There's no choice. I mean he's just he's part of the family, you know. Have you been with him for a long time in terms of your playing with him? Cuz I've seen you do so much with him. Uh I met him in 2018. >> Yeah. Um Yeah, and then during COVID we got closer. Nice. Cuz he and we yeah, so we got friendly during that time. >> Yeah. And and yeah. So since then yeah, that's that's amazing. Yeah. Um thank you to all of our subscribers. Thank you to the Prime Source production team. This of course podcast is sponsored by the Prime Source team. If you are running a health care facility, senior care facility, if you're caring for people and it costs you money and you want to know if you can save on your expenses, reach out to Prime Source today. Thank you so much to all of our listeners, our comments. We're loving all the feedback. Thank you again Thank you so much. >> Kushner. What an amazing amazing interview. This was fascinating. I really really appreciate it. That's a wrap, guys. Thank