Doc Gooden's Rise and Fall

I'm proud of my accomplishments, the things in this room, I'm proud of, proud of everything I accomplished. I'm proud of the relationships I've made throughout my career. But most important today, I I'm proud of myself. None of your business, Oushi. None of your business, Michael. It's the None of Your Business Podcast, hosted by Michael and Oushi. Welcome back, everybody, to another fantastic, amazing episode of the None of Your Business Podcast. We are back, Oushi, better than ever. I hope everyone holds on to their seats tight because we are about to take off to a hemisphere of nostalgia. We're sitting here with the one and only, Doc Gooden. Doc, I'm so excited. I I have to first thank Prime Source, our sponsors, and I have to just thank everybody behind us that let us to this moment. You know, when we first started, we had no idea where this is going to take us. We knew that this is sort of like a therapy session for Oushi and I. We're enjoying the process of growing with each other. Yes. Sitting here with you, I have to just say it's not only nostalgic from the perspective of me knowing you as a child, but it's also bringing me back heartfelt memories of knowing what it's like to grow up and have someone that you look up to, someone that you got kicked out of school because of, and I'm going to explain that to you in a minute. Uh but first of all, thank you. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. You guys continuous success. I hear you guys doing a wonderful job. Thanks for having me on here, and big thanks to Isaac for bringing us all together, and I'm glad we're finally getting here, getting to chat a little bit. Yes, thank you. First of all, I have to mention I love your home. Thank you. It It feels comfortable here. All the beautiful pictures, the colors, your custom-made sneakers, all the different numbers on the wall, and it's just It feels great to be here. And I want to really get right into it. I want to tell you something about me Okay. that you know, you don't know me yet, but one thing I'll tell you that may come as a surprise is that when I was a young boy, the first time in elementary school that I I got kicked out of school was for trading baseball cards. Wow. Did you ever hear of this before? I've I've heard of that, but not I haven't heard your story. You heard of the concept? I've heard of the concept. bit of the background as to what that means, trading cards in a Jewish Orthodox school, and why that's a little bit It might be a surprise to him. Explain that to him. Yeah, that's what I was asking like in in terms of have you ever heard that before? So, growing up in an Orthodox Jewish school, Okay. we're supposed to idolize the rabbis, and we're supposed to idolize the people that have wrote scriptures, and you know, followed the scriptures, and studied, and that's really nice. But, you know, when you turn on the television at night and you want to relax and unwind, you don't really see rabbis talking to you. You see Doc Gooden on the mound. You know, you see Gary Carter as a catcher. You see all the like your your at least what I was for me, idols, and people that I looked up to. So, we would have baseball cards in school, and we would trade them, and you know, very discreetly. We make sure the rabbis don't know about it. You know, by recess, you know, we would hang out behind the school, and we would whip out our cards in our pocket, and we would trade them amongst each other. But it was frowned upon. It wasn't like so much like, you know, wasn't so acceptable because like they wanted to keep the kids in line, like, you know, and this was like the outside world and movies and music and sports. You know, especially in the very Orthodox schools, it's like something that is a little taboo, and it's not so so acceptable. But you know, kids are kids, and we we keep up with what's going on in the world, and we were always intrigued by this. Like this was a world for us that was outside the scope of what we did, you know, at home. But you know, this is what he means when you know, we were trading cards, and you were one of those cards. You were definitely one of those cards, and uh I don't know how to accept that because you put me in the same boat as your rabbi. Made it baseball players. That's pretty That's pretty cool. Yeah. But interesting, though. I've never heard it to that text. Yeah, it's actually it's actually true, and um I just have to say growing up and watching I remember watching you, and I remember that feeling of, you know, you know, I hope it I always wondered actually what Gary Carter was telling you on the mound. Can you share that with us? Oh, sure. Gary Carter was the best, and a lot of the reason for my success in '85 was because of Gary Carter, and I remember in '84 at the All-Star Game in San Francisco, I've never been so nervous in my life. 19 years old. This really my first time pitching in front of national audience. You know, the game's on game in a week. I mean, ABC or what have you. Sellout crowd. I'm a year and a half out of high school, and Gary see I'm nervous, so he tells me, he goes, "Just throw the ball the way you did the first half of the season, you'll be fine." I struck out the three guys I faced. Let's see if I get it right. Lance Parrish, I don't know the correct order. Lance Parrish, Chet Lemon, and Alvin Davis, right? After that inning is over, Gary goes, "Wouldn't this be nice to do every fifth day?" Not knowing that in November we were going to trade for Gary. Trade for Gary. From day one of spring training, me and Gary just clicked. Talked about things he likes, things I like to do, the counts, I like to throw certain pitches, and we just clicked. And in '85, when I had my career year, I'd say probably after about the fifth start, every start was like an event. It was more than just a start. And it was a big challenge. Everybody wanted the 10-plus strikeouts. They wanted the complete game, and you know, they wanted the shutout. And Gary wanted that. It didn't matter if we were up 10-nothing and 9-nothing or whatever. He didn't want me to mess around. He wanted me to pitch like the game was 1-nothing. And to your point, Gary would come out to the mound sometime if he felt like I was messing around, and get right in my face. I mean, he would say some unpleasant things. Gary was a religious guy, very nice guy, but between the lines, he's one of the toughest guys I've ever played with, and he demanded nothing but the best from each guy that pitched. And with me, we had a personal relationship. I was the only guy Gary would want to catch between starts. He would come down to bullpen and catch me. He didn't want nobody catching me. But again, I got to give Gary a lot of credit as well as Mel Stottlemyre, my pitching coach, for the success that I had because Mel would challenge me between starts to make sure I wouldn't settle for the start that I had before. I could have just had 14 strikeouts, complete game shutout, but he would find something for me to work on, and Gary would make me When the game would start, I would be pitching like I just gave up 14 runs, even though I was dominating, but um it was a fun year, and Gary, I miss him to this day cuz he was a good friend as well, but nobody played the game as hard as Gary. Mhm. You know, Michael, he mentions Mel Stottlemyre. I don't know if you know Mel Stottlemyre, but he was a pitching coach for the Yankees amongst many other things that he did. But when I hear his name, I just think about that story with Pedro Martinez, that little brawl that they had, and somehow Mel got in the way, and next thing you know, he's lying flat on his back. No, that's Don Zimmer. Zimmer. Don Zimmer. That wasn't Mel Stottlemyre? It was Don Zimmer. Don Zimmer. Yeah. That was in the '90s That was in the '20 2000 It had to be. Are you sure? Yeah, absolutely positive. Zimmer was I I You're asking him cuz he said Stottlemyre. You were there, so surely you would know. Then I was Zimmer was wearing Remember the the helmet that he got him? They had him like an army helmet. older, white hair. It was But to Zimmer's credit, he went out to Pedro. Yeah. Yeah. And Pedro called him out. He thought that, but Pedro would just protect himself. So, I mean, I understand. Yeah, yeah. He wasn't trying to, you know, wasn't trying to hurt him. bully an older brawl. Yeah, yeah. It was a And you've been involved in brawls. Yes, a lot of brawls, and that's when rivalries was real. Like now, there's no real rivalries. I mean, it's really not. I mean, a lot of these guys They're all friendly. They all seem to like know each other. they all work out together, same agents, and they switch teams so much now, so with the Mets in the '80s, we literally hated guys. I mean, we saw the Phillies in a in a bar or restaurant, we might fight. I mean, we didn't like nobody. We didn't conversate with nobody. We didn't fraternize with nobody on the field. We didn't like nobody. Was that something to build you up? Was that something to like get you No, that's the way it was. It's just the natural It's just the way it was before I got to the big leagues and just carried on. I'd say until probably like towards the end of my career. My last year was 2000. I could see it kind of fading out a little bit at that time. Um but in the early '80s, like we'd fight the Cardinals. We used to have the same spring training facility in St. Petersburg. We used to fight in spring training. I mean, it was real back then. Now, I mean, you might see a brawl here and there, but not much. Too many lawsuits flying around these days. Lawsuits. Guys making too much money. I mean, they're training together. Everybody's friends. Everybody's in each other's wedding. It's totally different. Like you take Gary Sheffield, my nephew, when they would come into town to play, I wouldn't talk to him. Not at the ballpark. I mean, at home, he would stay at my house or whatever, but at the ballpark, we did not talk. I mean, that's just the way it was. Wow. Wow. That's real competition right there. Real competition. I threw a ball over Gary's head once. Did you really? Just to let him know. I mean, I love Gary. I mean, that's my little brother, but um Wait a minute. You You purposefully threw the ball a little close to his head. what happened was Gary started with Milwaukee. He got traded to San Diego in '92 when I was with the Mets. First time I faced him, you got to remember we grew up in the same house, at one time shared the same bed, and Gary's my boy. He's my best friend. I mean, he's my little brother. He told that still to this day. But when he's batting, you know, he's got the bat, and he's smiling at me. had the most vicious swing. But he smile and hold his bat. He hit the hardest foul balls anybody ever knew. Yeah, but so when I faced him the first time, he's thinking we're still in the backyard. He's smiling at me. But this this is real. So, I had to still ball over his head just kind of let him know this ain't the place for that, but um Yeah. We're here to play. We're here to play. This is This is prime time. And I heard it from my family and everybody like, "Oh, you could have hurt Gary. You could have gone easy on him." Yeah, that's right. I didn't want to hurt him. I just wanted You know, let him Let him know you're there. So, what does that mean, you and Gary? You guys grew up in the same house. So, tell us a little He's my sister's son. He's my nephew. Okay. But we grew up like brothers because my sister had him very young, so my parents basically raised him. Um at one time we shared the same bed. My dad taught us the game of baseball. My dad Me and Gary were very fortunate to have my dad teach us, and the thing I regret today is not finding out from my dad where did he learn his knowledge from. Cuz my dad grew up in Georgia, third grade education, worked in a cotton field. Um I'm the young youngest sibling of five by 13 years. I'm the only one who was born in Florida, but my dad loved the game so much and he taught me and Gary the game. And he knew Gary was going to be the hitter and I was going to be the pitcher, but when we used to go to the field to work out, initially it wasn't fun because we'd go to the field, no bat, no glove, no ball. He had Gary just doing these drills, had me doing these drills with my leg up. That's where I get the leg high leg kick from, teaching us mechanics. Once he felt our mechanics were sound, then he thought we could get the ball and glove, but initially it wasn't fun, but as we got older, we knew what he was doing. So, me and Gary were very fortunate to grow up in the same house and have my dad and Gary's granddad teach us the game of baseball. So, your father is who got it all started for you? 1,000%. This was his passion. This was his dream for you very early on. It was his dream that became our dream. And what I mean by that be I had older brothers, but just didn't pan out with them playing sports. Me and Gary grew up in the same house and one day my dad asked me, "Do we love the game of baseball?" We said, "Yes." And back then in the '70s and you would still have one game on TV, the the game of the week on Saturdays with Joe uh Garagiola. And then while I was living in Tampa, we get Atlanta Braves games on the radio. So, we have a game on the radio, game on TV. Me and Gary sitting there with our, you know, juice and chips. My dad got his beer and chips or whatever and he would quiz us on the games. We just thought maybe he'd ask us questions about the game, but he basically was quizzing us about the game. And the one question if I could go back in time to ask him, "How did he know Gary was going to be the hitter and I was going to be the pitcher?" thinking that. Yeah. That's the one thing I want to know. I mean, I was a decent hitter, but nothing like Gary actually. And Gary used to pitch a little bit in Little League and high school, but nothing like the way I pitched. So, he just knew this is the way it was going to be and it turned out like that. And what at what age did you know you had it? What was that? Well, I started learning the game at seven. Seven years old. Gary was like three. I'm four Gary was three coming up, okay? So, I'm four years older than Gary, but then when I got like 12, I totally dominated Little League. I mean, dominated. When I'm talking about dominating, I would strike out like 16 out of 18 guys, hit two home runs, drive in five runs and win five nothing. But then the next year I turned 13, bigger field, teams kind of even out again. So, I get to high school. When I was in high school, we didn't have freshmen. It just went from 10, 11, 12. My first year I go to high school and our team is loaded cuz we can get guys from different neighborhoods and put them in ROTC. That could make them eligible to play baseball, right? So, we was loaded. We had a guy Vance Lovelace. He was number one pick with the Cubs one year. We had Albert Everett, Carter Everett's older brother, was drafted by the Twins. We had Floyd Youmans, who was drafted by the Mets as well. They were traded for Gary Carter. So, we played Tuesdays, Fridays, and Saturdays. So, I can my sophomore year I wasn't starting. I was playing outfield or whatever, but I couldn't even start, so I quit the team. My dad said, "If you ever quit again, you'll never play." My junior year I go back out with the team and we got those three guys. We got Lovelace, Everett, and uh Youmans in the rotation, right? I was like a relief pitcher or Youmans get kicked off the team halfway through our junior year. He moves to California with his dad. I get into the rotation. That's when I just take off. Cuz I was just waiting for the opportunity, but if Youmans don't get kicked off the team, I would only have my senior year. So, technically I only pitched a year and a half in high school, but when I got the opportunity, I mean, I just took off cuz I was technically, mentally I was ready, ready to work and ready to go. How fast were you throwing your fastball in high school? High school, I would probably say low '90s. Wow. So, you were ready to throw. What's the art form to be able to throw? Is this just like God-given talent? It's is a muscle you've been working at? How do you throw a 90 mph at 18 years old? A lot of it is God-given talent and it's what you do with that talent. Like I said, my dad told me mechanics is very important and I like to see guys hopefully get back to teaching mechanics. Now at the big league level, I think a lot of injuries is coming from that cuz now everything is based on velocity and spin rate. Um but my dad told me mechanics and you could do a we did a lot of tubing. What I mean by tubing is stretching with the band. We didn't do weights back then. A lot of long toss. What I mean by long toss is start playing catch longer, you stretch your arm out. And that's gave me arm strength and then developing your legs. My dad was big on getting your building your legs up, running out of sprints, and he felt like you can do as much weights you want with your lower body, building your core. You got to be strong in your legs. That's where your power comes from, but the muscles, your small muscles, you want to keep them more power and extension. That was my my dad's philosophy and that's where it basically came from. All right. Let's see. Do I get a question? Yes, go ahead. Okay, I appreciate it. No problem. When did the name Doc come up? So, I used to kid around and say it came from basketball, but this is the true story. So, my dad had a friend, you guys know him as Dennis Williams, that was a doctor, a real doctor, right? And for some strange reason when I was a kid, I used to go with him when he used to do these autopsies. And I used to go with him to watch these autopsies, right? I wouldn't do it today, but I used to go with him to watch it and he's always tell my dad, "He's going to be a doctor. He's not going to be a baseball player." And so, when I played Little League baseball and high school, him and my dad would come to the game, but before they would come out to the watch the game, they always have a couple of drinks, right? Beer or whatever, right? And every time I got two strikes on the batter, the Dennis, who was the doctor, would say, "Come on, Doc. I'll bring him Doc. You got another patient, Doc. Put him away, Doc." And the local newspaper one day was doing a story and he wrote that. And my teammates started out started out as a joke calling me Doc. And then once you get drafted, everybody has a nickname. They just give you a nickname. And when I got drafted by the Mets, they first started calling me Gooden for Gooden. But I said, "Nah, everybody call me call me Doc." And then Doc just kind of stayed and then when I got to the major leagues, they added the K for strikeouts, Doc K. So, that's how it pretty much Love it. So, you're in high school and you're dominating. You're throwing in the low '90s. What's next? What happens? What was that first break when you got exposure? When people heard about this phenom, this guy Doc Gooden somewhere in Tampa and he's and he's and he's pitching for uh for his Little League, for his high school. Like when did that happen that something happened? When did that like that moment? Yeah, Little League I got a little notoriety cuz I played in the the senior the Little League World Series. I was too young, so I made the team, but you got to be 11, so I went to Williamsport 1975, but I couldn't play cuz someone else 10 years old. Um when I was 14, we played in the senior league World Series. I was in Gary and I playing against Taiwan. Taiwan beat us. I pitched a little bit, but where I started getting on the map was my junior in high school when Youmans got kicked off the team and I got into the rotation. And the scouts, sometimes the scouts would come to watch Lovelace or or Carter Everett, older brother Albert Everett, pitch. Um and I would come in behind these guys in relief. And so, when the scouts were packing up their guns and this and that, they hear the mitt popping, pow, pow. And then my dad, who was a big fan, he's like, "Hold on. Don't you guys go nowhere. My son's coming and you might want to watch him and check him out." So, my dad was the one to get the scouts, you know, hanging around to watch. So, even though they was coming to watch Lovelace and Everett pitch and I would come in the game, and that's where I started getting noticed. And then when I would start, they'd come back out and watch me and I basically just took over. I won the MVP of the have like it was like an Easter tournament we had. I won the MVP of that league of that tournament, I'm sorry. And then my senior year, I mean, I just killed it. I had like 130 strikeouts in like 70-something innings, something like that. I just totally just killed it. I'm like that's a ridiculous number. I don't know if you appreciate that. That's like That's like unhittable. Yeah, that's what That's unhittable territory. My senior year was literally, not to blow smoke up my own horn, but it was literally a man against boys. Yes. I just totally dominated. You're a monster. Yes. And then what what make it weird is even though Youmans, Lovelace, and Everett was ahead of me, I end up the Mets end up taking me number one in '82 and Youmans number two. So, you were the number one draft pick that year? And '82, I was the fifth overall. Shawn Dunston was number one. I was the number five pick. In the first round. In the first round. And Youmans was the Mets second pick, but a year before that, I couldn't make the rotation and Youmans, Lovelace, and Everett was in the rotation. Wow. What a shift. What a quick That's escalating really quickly. like Youmans, I mean, I'm sorry. How did you know? Who told you you're going to now get drafted by the New York Mets? How who told How did you find out about that? Well, the way it goes down, my high school coach initially told me I would go between the 10th and 15th round, right? So, I signed a letter of intent to go to University of Miami. Um at that time it was I forgot his first name, but his last name was Frazier. He was the baseball coach. And I didn't really want to go to college, but I figured, you know, I'm going 10-15 round, I'll go to University of Miami. And I didn't grow up from we didn't have a lot, you know, but we had love in the house, but we didn't have a lot. Me and my dad Me and my dad, we shared the same one car. So, when the draft came around, the Mets took me number one. I was I was actually at the Tampa Tribune and the news come on. They didn't have like MLB Network or anything like that. So, we went down to the paper company to watch the draft. It was just a little ticker thing that go across the screen, right? And uh I see the Cubs take Shawn Dunston. I forget who went two, three, four. Then you see New York Mets select Tampa's Dwight Gooden. I'm looking at this. I'm like, "No way. This can't be right." So, I had the guy, Tom McEwen, he's no longer with us, call New York to make sure it was right cuz I wouldn't believe it. He said, "Yes. They they took you in the first round." So, in my mind right then, I was going to sign. I wasn't going to college because I wanted to get my mom a house. I wanted to get my dad, you know, a car car and some clothes and stuff like that. But I couldn't tell my parents that cuz my mom was big on education. But that's the only way I knew that I was getting drafted and cuz my coach told me I was going between the 10th and the 15th round. And that's the only thing I had to go on because I had a couple of trials with Cincinnati Reds who has spring training in Tampa. Pittsburgh Pirates who was in Bradenton, all close to Tampa, but nothing major. They didn't promise me anything. So, I thought I was going to probably go to college, but when I was drafted number one, in my mind, I was going to sign no matter what. Holy crap. All right. But you're talking to like saying she You realize that like we have a lot of like young listeners and like the the fact that they have to like try and grasp right now that he had to go to the to the to the local television station to find out that he was drafted by the New York Mets. Yeah. And like today everyone is walking around with ESPN in their pocket. The whole studio. Today when a player gets drafted, like a lot of times he finds out on TV. Like people already know what second it happens, word gets out, and everybody knows everything that's going on. But just walk me through this, Doc, because you're talking to mere mortals over here. Like we don't live in your professional you know sports world. And this is just like I'm thinking about to I got to say something. By the way, me and O'Shea were on a softball team uh this uh past summer and uh we actually did win. What league you in? O'Shea actually pitched. Germany? O'Shea We played it up in Rockland County. Around here. We're part of a league. O'Shea O'Shea pitched and I actually was the catcher. Yeah. And uh I got to tell you O'Shea was a was was dominant. Yeah. You know something we don't say? We pretend, you know, we play in a pretend world. Like I was doing it because Harley, you know Pete, right? He's got the Clover Academy. He has the indoor facility. He's talking about getting a softball team this summer in this area. So maybe we should meet up and play each other. Ooh. Wow. Things are getting real over here. Yeah, I mean especially you You scream at him if you're listening. My You got to make a phone call. I don't know what to make of this. I think O'Shea hit 30 miles an hour, I think. But you know they say All right. Yeah. So it's like the bomb. So Doc, walk me through this for a second. they have every 4 years. Yep. Doc, walk me through this for a second. So you now get drafted by the New York Mets. Yes. I mean your heart your mind must be spinning racing. You don't know what Your life is about to change forever. Your life is about to go into a sphere that only very few people ever get to experience. Yes. What happens next? Tell me what hap- So you you you call people. You're telling the whole world I'm I I just got drafted by the New York Mets. What happens? So after I found out the Mets did draft me I called my dad. I told him what was going on. And then you know back then it was no cell phones. I got a call from the the payphone. Yes. And so I had drove his car with a friend of mine to the station. I was so nervous and so excited I couldn't drive home. My friend drove home. And when I get home to the house now you got the networks the TV channel 13 all these trucks are parked outside of my house. So they already knew about it. So they're already showing up to your house. Yeah, my house all right. And again I come from a neighborhood that's I mean it's not poor but it's not you know it's not like this. And um when I get home all the new trucks outside I don't understand. So I go in the house give my mom a hug my dad a hug and um we're talking. They said they want to talk to you. So I go outside and all my neighbors outside because we had a nice neighborhood with a lot of kids. So I'm out there talking and they still don't know what's going on. They're just trying to figure out what's going on. And I'm talking to the news. I'm excited. I'm like yeah and remind you I don't know anything about the Mets. I used to follow the Cincinnati Reds who had spring training in Tampa. My dad took me to a lot of spring training games. I didn't really follow the Mets. The Mets at that time was terrible. They were the worst team in the league at the time. Pretty much. Yes. They were at the bottom of the barrel. Yeah. I'm glad you said it not me. I'm a fan. I can say it. I got to You're also you're also a Yankees fan so let's not forget that. I do the interviews and then now you got all these agents calling. How did you get my number? I don't know my house number. All these agents calling. I don't have a representative. So my dad did my first contract. And I remember um Joe McIlvaine he was like the head scout at the time. He ended up becoming the general manager of the Mets general manager of the Padres. He worked for different teams. And I just saw him down in the Mets fantasy camp in November. And we was talking about all the same stuff. So him and my dad's doing the contract and my dad's negotiating. And like four different visits he come to the house trying to work the deals out. Can't get nothing worked out. And I remember the last time well not the last time but maybe the second to the last time he came to the house and he says sorry we can't get nothing worked out. Good luck in college. And he walks out the house and I'm like man I want to go outside to grab him but I was only 17. So you got to have a parent you know do it. And my mom is is screaming and yelling at my dad. You don't know what you're doing. That's his career. Is that what my dad goes he'll be back. And how again where my dad gets knowledge from I have no idea. And a week later he came back. And he was right. He said here's your money. Congratulations and my proudest moment was I got my mom a house. I got my dad a car and got my dad some clothes. Uh but you don't start making money immediately. When you got drafted to the Mets, right? Is there an entry level contract that they give it's it's the bare minimum, isn't it? Yeah, you get a signing bonus. At that time it was 85,000. Um Shawn Dunston was number one pick he got 100,000. But 85,000 to me at that time was like 85 million. Now It was a lump sum. They gave it to you in one check? No, it's like um Over the year they give it to you. Yeah. And plus my dad was over the money. And then so once I got my my dad a car and my mom a house and then you go off to I went off to play rookie ball in Kingsport, Tennessee. One second, so Doc So you got your first check. You got you start making money. First thing you did right away you bought your mother a house. You bought a car. You So you're spending all the money. Yeah. The money's gone. Money's gone. Where's your money gone? So right away. Okay. By the way, I'd probably do the same just so you know. Well well well well well I'm saying Not for nothing he bought his parents. He didn't buy I didn't hear you buy anything living with his parents. He's living with his parents. I'm hearing I still live with my parents. I still live with my parents. My first 3 years in big leagues I lived with my parents as well. I mean I was the youngest kid and I was poor kid but my parents put me in a situation to succeed. I mean even if they didn't have they would find a way to get me whatever I needed whether it was clothes for school whether it was equipment for baseball whether it was money to go on these trips with the baseball team. They made sacrifices for me. So I just felt like You wanted to give back right away. Had to give back. Right away you wanted to give back to them show your appreciation. That's a beautiful thing. To do that was just all I wanted to do. And then I was fortunate enough that a year later a year and a half later '84 I'm in the big leagues. So everything changed at that point but So you didn't go straight into major league. You went to the minor league system first. Yeah, the first year '82 I got drafted in June and then like end of July I signed. Um I went to Kingsport, Tennessee which is rookie ball. Um I played like a maybe like a month there. Then I got called up to the Little Falls, New York. That's like the New York Penn League. I pitched maybe three games there. And I basically went home because I got scared when I got into a brawl. It was my first time experiencing any type of um racial environment where I go into this bar. It was me Mookie Wilson's son Johnny Wilson. Um and the rest of the team was all white guys. And we're going to this bar after the game. And these guys yell out what are you guys doing hanging with these Mhm. N- you know immigrant guys. Yeah. Fight breaks out. I'm 17 years old. I've never experienced that cuz my neighborhood was white, black, Spanish, everything. I remember going back to the hotel and I told the team I wanted to go home. I was homesick. Sent me home. Went to instructional league. And um the next year '83 I go to Lynchburg, Virginia. That's like our high A ball team. I start out 0 and 3. You got You'll love this story. I start out 0 and 3, right? So they're thinking about sending me down to low A. We had a pitching coach John Cumberland. He's no longer with us. He said no we're not going to send him down. We're going to have a missed start. I'm going to work with him. It's okay. So I missed a start and we didn't work on anything. We just talked about pitching inside because I wouldn't pitch inside. When I say pitch inside meaning pitching inside like knocking hitters down not letting the hitter get comfortable. I was scared to do that because in high school I hit a kid in the head. Well the paramedics came on the field to get him. I mean the kid was fine but I was scared to pitch inside. So I just started 0 and 3. He goes we're going to pitch inside. If the guy hits a home run off you the next guy I want you to drill him hit him right in his leg. If the guy hits the ball hard off you the next guy I want you to throw one right up at his neck, right? Mind games. Yes. So after doing that like for about eight starts now I'm like 8 and 3. He said okay we're not going to do that anymore. So just by a little correction I end up after going starting 0 and 3 I end up 19 and 4 with 300 strikeouts. Wow. And the next year I'm in the big leagues. taught you like strategy. He taught you not just about throwing your pitches but thinking about when to throw it and how to throw it and when to throw a ball and when to you know shove a guy off the plate a little bit. Like that was something that you didn't have yet you know the experience. Exactly. I just went on like I just threw hard. I had a good curveball. I just went on raw ability. But he taught me about pitching because Doc, you didn't have a good curveball. You had one of the best. You had that sweeping curveball that was no It wasn't even just a curveball. A lot of people throw curveballs. Yeah. But your the movement the spin rate on your curveball was extra special. You know baseball. Yeah, I mean Doc I'm like honored to be sitting over here. Like this is like I'm going to only process this later. I'm sitting with Doc Gooden one of the all-time greats. You came into the league as a phenom. Yeah. You came in with such expectations. Like everybody was like this guy is the it's going to be the next big thing. I mean you won Rookie of the Year in your first year. Yeah. Then you won the Cy Young I believe in '85, right? Yeah. And then in '86 you won the World Series. So like and you took a team that was horrible. Like they they were going nowhere the Mets. And then they had the Lenny Dykstras and others you know that came onto the team. But you really led the way. You You were their ace on the on the on the staff. Yeah. So you accomplished almost everything all at once. All at once. Right away first 3 years. Like where does this guy go from here? What's next? That That must have been like a lot of pressure for you. You know I'm trying to break down what happened you know first year you got drafted but I'm like I'm already way way further ahead but it's fascinating to hear. Like how this all started. And the beginning part of this like what was going through your mind? Right. When you were actually on the mound the first time in '84. You're a rookie right now. And and like you made it big time. You made it to places that very few people in the world ever get to. People dream about and you made it. So now you're finally there. What's happening? What's going through What's your life like in '84? What is your life like on the field and off the field? So '84 I make the team in spring training. It was only because of Davey Johnson my manager. He seen me pitch the prior year. He was the triple A manager. And he said wherever he managed the following year which was '84 I'm going to be on the team. So I said okay. And George Bamberger who was the manager of the Mets he resigned after the '83 season. And I remember seeing Davey Johnson in instructional league. I said Davey remember what you told me. He said don't worry about it you're going to be on the team. And a lot of people don't know this and I'm I didn't know at the time. I just found out many years later the Mets left Tom Seaver unprotected. What he unprotected left him off the roster intentionally with Davey that was Davey's idea knowing that someone was going to claim him which White Sox claimed Tom Seaver. That's how I got on the roster because I was a non-roster player. You got to be in the in the organization for 3 years to be put on the roster but I had only been in in the minor leagues for 2 years. So I got invited to camp and that opened the door by them leaving Seaver unprotected. White Sox claimed him. They opened a spot for me. But only made the team because of David Johnson and I remember the last day of spring training in '84 he said congratulations you're making the team and I was so excited but nervous at the same time and I remember one of the greatest moments I had was to tell my dad in the parking lot that I made the team. It was only the second time I've ever seen my dad cry. I've seen him cry at his mom's funeral and I've seen him cry when I told him I made the team. Tears of joy. Yep and now I make the team and so you have you sort of thinking am I ready am I not ready and I won my first game in Houston. Astros don't really have no big name at that time. I won the first game. Was that your first first game that you pitched? First start so Houston Astros. When Houston I pitched in Houston the Mets kind of had to fly my parents in and I remember after that game my dad said what do you think? I said I should win a lot of games. My second start was in Chicago I get knocked out in the third inning and then I'm telling my dad I don't know if I'm ready. So it took me a probably about seven eight games before I knew I really belonged and to answer your question what it was like on and off the field on the field was a lot of fun. But I would say after the All-Star break after I made the All-Star team at 3-0 that's when my name really took off. You made the All-Star team in '84? Yes my rookie That first your rookie year. I made the All-Star team and I broke the record. I struck out the first three guys I faced in the All-Star game. So you were the young you were probably one of the youngest players ever to be Still today youngest player ever to pitch in All-Star game. Do you still hold that record? I was 19 a year and a half out of high school and I was living in Port Washington which is like I don't know maybe 30 minutes from here right? I was living in a basement apartment and um um used to be media trucks parked outside the house and there was cars parked outside the house kids hanging outside the house just wanting autographs wanting pictures so that part wasn't fun because I couldn't go to the mall like a regular 19-year-old. I couldn't go to the movies when my girlfriend came over during the summer. I couldn't go around the corner and get pizza. So you just look forward to the road trips but it was tough. I used to ride to the ballpark with Daryl Strawberry. He'll come pick me up and then I'd rush get in the car we'd go. So that part was tough and then it just led into the 1985 I'm moving too fast just tell me. So I'm moving to '85 and the expectations from '84 going into '85 was like I mean crazy. The expectations that the media had for me the team had for me and the expectations I had for myself but we started my '85 would been better than '84. You won 24 games in '84. I won 24 games and also I had 16 complete games and also I had four games that year where I pitched nine shut out innings but I got no decisions but that year I couldn't do anything. I mean you couldn't go nowhere. So that part wasn't fun because now I'm 20 my parents come up my sister comes up my girlfriend come up and you can't go nowhere. I mean I'm still in that same Are they all moving to New York or living in New York at the time or they still living back home in Tampa? They're still living back in Tampa. Okay so you're not seeing them other than when you see them sometimes at games or you know they'll come up whatever but I couldn't go anywhere just to the ballpark. So you're alone where where are you living? Port Washington I'm still in Port Washington I'm still in Port by yourself you're living alone? I have a girlfriend that kind of stayed there. So the two of you are living together? Yes. And like an apartment type of thing. Yeah basement apartment the same apartment because back then the minimum was like 40,000 and then the next year went from 40,000 to I think maybe 125,000. So I was still wasn't making you know a lot and then the rent I was paying was 2,500 a month on a non-furnished basement apartment but you know coming from Tampa that was a big town for me and it was tough. You couldn't go to you couldn't go anywhere couldn't go to city couldn't do nothing. So you look forward to going on the road. So that part was uncomfortable and being from Tampa you know I was a very shy kid you know quiet laid back. I wasn't used to that. So that was tough. That was the toughest time to go through it but at the ballpark I found my peace on the mound because that's where I wanted to be. That's what you were born to do. Every game was sold out that I pitched. It was great and like like I was saying earlier that's when Carter played a big part. He made me accept that challenge and I wanted to be on the mound and it was like no disrespect to the other team but I felt like nobody's going to hit me. I had the home crowd behind me and that was my day. It was bigger than just a game. It was like a show. You know you're just putting on a show for the crowd and I I'm kind of like out of character talking about myself but that's just the way it was. No that's the reality. That's just the way it was. You're you're actually under-selling it a little bit. You know you you were like you said it was an event every time you pitched like what is he going to do today? You know and I I just I have to stop it for a second Michael. I I want you to appreciate what's what's happening here. When Steph and I when we go to our little league you know game that we play in and if I'm if I'm in the on the mound and there's like I don't know 19 people watching me like I have a little bit if my wife's in the stand forget about it. I'm like uh-oh like I I got to perform. I actually banned her from coming to my games. I told my wife she can't come anymore because it's too much too much pressure. Stay home please. He's doing this in front of 30 40,000 people in the stands especially in the later years. He's doing this in front of millions of people that are watching this especially the nationally televised games. I I understand what that's like Doc. You got to walk me through this like what how do you you're not How do you not wilt away and just melt into the ground? Like how did you keep your composure and how did you excel while doing that? I'm also curious if you had any superstitions like did you ever not step on the foul line or any good luck charms? Take us through that process. So my superstition was I'mma go back to when I was in A ball right? So when I was 0 and 3 and what got me my first win was the day I had a Z28 Camaro. Um I finally got my car through my rookie year and I came home and Was that the first car like you were the first flashy car? That was your first Camaro. That was my first purchase yeah. Mom and dad are taking care of you can finally get your car. Love it. Love the Camaro by the way. And I washed my car that day and I got my first win so I'm like wow this is it. So all baseball players are superstitious pretty much and like I like I said I wouldn't step on the lines and none of that stuff either and I washed my car that day and I got my first win that year. And so every day that I would pitch whether it was rain or not I would wash my car. And then when I got to the major leagues the next year that was my thing wash my car and I tie my shoes was my other thing. It was just like a night games in my lunch room I'd get a tie and so I just felt like that was the key. I had to stick with that even if I had a tough game I would still stick with it and I did it for like three or four years and then I just you know figured it wasn't working anymore and gave it up but that was my thing. But were you like zoned in when you were on the mound you didn't even realize what was going on around you or did you always subconsciously know people are watching me? Like what were the nerves like? How did you manage it? Yeah to your question so my rookie year every start I was nervous nervous every start but I always pitched my best when I was nervous because I focused more. I think the games that I wasn't nervous I would get hit because I wasn't totally locked in but when I'm nervous even like I do motivational speaks speeches now to the schools and colleges so when I first start I'm a little nervous that's when I can give my best cuz I always speak from the heart I don't have nothing written down. There you go. But when I'm real relaxed I'm then I'm all thrown off. Not scripted it's real genuine. Like us here today. Like right now. It's genuine. We don't script anything we just we like to talk from the heart. So I'm actually curious did the fans play any factor in like your the way you pitched that that start? Like did they like like fifth inning two outs you know everyone's standing is that The fans always like even like now I think sometimes the fans think I'm just blowing smoke but I always thank the fans because they played a big part of my career. And to his point was like I was you might remember like the fans when I got two strikes on a batter everybody in the in the stadium be standing up clapping wanting the strike out. That worked to my advantage because if I threw the ball close and umpire didn't call it a strike the fans going to let him know. And the hitters they don't want to go down looking so anything close they going to swing. But from a pitcher's standpoint the adrenaline that it gave me and the rush that you got from that with everybody I'm talking about everybody in the stadium standing up clapping. It was no better feeling than that and that's where the breathing part come in as well. My dad told me just take a deep breath because as a young kid you don't you don't want to get caught up in it but I I thrived off of that. That was my thing. You know I I wanted that. What about the opposite? What about someone there screaming at you or cursing you heckling you or that okay. So like on the road I didn't mind when I'm on the mound but it was a time when I was in Philadelphia like at the old Veterans Stadium the bullpen was like in left field behind the fence and the stands were above you and those fans would be throwing stuff at you throwing objects at you and the security guard would turn his back. And that was tough because normally it take me 15 20 minutes to get loose but there I would do like maybe five to seven minutes tell me I'm good. You don't want to get hit by a beer bottle because they would turn their back and you'd see like mustard on you ketchup or other stuff on you. What was the baddest stadium that you would go to you would hate going to on the road? On the road I would say Philadelphia the old Veterans Stadium was tough because they would throw objects. They were hostile. And the other one would be Chicago at Wrigley Field because you're literally the bullpen you're right here and the fan fans are like right there and they do their homework they know about you they know about your mom they know about your dad and they'll just hammer you you can't help you hear them. Yeah. But the best thing was about that was when you beat them that next day you get to go out there and talk smack. That's the best revenge. That's right and then after you beat them on the field that'll set them straight. What about those days the days after your starts? Like you're sitting sitting in the dugout watching the game what what's what's that experience like? You're not playing but you're in the game. Oh when if you've won and pitched a great game that's the best feeling to have. Just you come to the park early you get your work in meaning you're running you're exercising and all that stuff then you get to just take a nice shower and sit back and enjoy the game. That's the best feeling you can have. I imagine it's when you had a bad game and then you're already antsy for the next opportunity to make up for it. Yeah the opposite of that is It's hard to wait. Yes it's hard to sit there. You got to wait, you've got to wait 4 days. You're very antsy about that. god, that's the worst. You're trying to find stuff to do. It's in your head, you can't sleep. Cuz I would take my games home with me. Um it was tough. I mean, I felt bad for my my my wife at the time. My kids was okay, but I was no fun to be around. If I lost, not that I'm going to throw stuff or be yelling at them, but I I was just I took baseball and you try not to, but to be honest with you, I put baseball before everything. Everything. your life. Yeah, that was my life. And I probably if I had to do it all over again, which I apologize and talked to my kids and my ex-wife and parents all that stuff, I apologize about my ways, but if I had to do it all over again, I would not have gotten married at that time. Um on the flip side, I was very blessed to have the kids that I have and the family I have. They're still there. We have great relationships, but if I had to do it all over, I was not a party life because baseball was like first and foremost everything. That was my life. Who was who was guiding you? Who was mentoring you while you were going through this major hype very early on, 19-year-old, 20-year-old? I mean, those are pivotal moments in your life, you know, and baseball is pretty much everything that you're focused on that you're doing, but there's off-the-field stuff as well. Yep. Like I I just imagine myself, if I'd be in your shoes, like I I I'd go off the rails. I mean, that kind of popularity with that kind of talent, like that's hard to to control, right? That's really really difficult to do. So, who's who's advising you? Who's like what's that like? Okay, it's it's three parts to that. The first part, um like my first year I got to meet him. We had a guy Mike Torres, pitcher on the team. He was great. And so, I met him in spring training and he told me, he goes, "If you make the team, you start pitching well, I'm probably going to get released. Um who's the other guy? Um Oh god, it's a blank. It was another guy, pitcher on the team. You've been amazing with names till now, by the way. You've been dropping names. I keep one out. How do you remember You get a pass. You get a You get a pass. That's the first one that's that's evading you. Yeah. I think probably he probably got me out. Who was the pitcher at the top Mets pitcher in '83 and '84 besides Seaver? Right-handed pitcher. He got released in '84. Craig Swan. Very good. Craig Swan. He said, "If you pitch good, myself and Craig Swan, Dick Tidrow, we probably all get released. If you sit Ron Darling, you got to start pitching well." Sure enough, I make the team, Mike's on team, and he said, "The days that you're not pitching, and days I'm not pitching, you're going to sit next to me." And I would have to sit next to him and he would say, "What would you throw here? Why would you throw this pitch?" So, he's teaching me along the way. On the road, I would have to go out to eat with him. So, then after '84, they end up releasing him, Craig Swan, Dick Tidrow, release all these guys, right? And then Mel Stottlemyre kind of like became my mentor on the road, where he would come out of the room, make sure I'm not homesick, follow around, make sure I'm okay. And as you mentioned, with the the um the um the pressure I had on myself, I put on myself, the fans put on me, the organization put on me, the media put on me. '84, like you mentioned, you win Cy Young, '85, you win Cy Young. '86, I win the World Series. '87, now I got the problems happen. So, I had people there I could have went to, but a lot of times, and I'm not justifying anything, a lot of times because I was the breadwinner, I say, "Man, I'm having some problems I need to talk about these problems." They say, "You're fine." Cuz I come from a home where men don't talk about problems, men don't hug men. Have a drink over it, pull your boots up, tighten up, be a man about it. So, a lot of stuff I kept in that we wouldn't talk about. When the alcohol start getting bad, the drugs start coming in, I had people I could have talked to. I had people on the team I could have talked to, but my ego wouldn't allow me to do that because I was I was put on this pedestal. So, the problems start getting worse and worse. So, '87 when my problems start, I went to rehab, and that's part of the reason why I got married when I came out. Um it was a selfish thing, but it was a thing I was trying to protect myself. And but at that time when you say who mentored me at that point, Mel Stottlemyre played a big part. I had a guy, Dr. Allan Landsburg with the team, was there as well. So, I started getting guys that was there to help me. Uh Keith Hernandez was very influential, and Gary Carter was my guy. Even Gary, wow, I can't say this without getting choked up. Um I think it was 2012 before Gary passed. That's when he had his brain aneurysm, he had his problem. He said, "Doc, look, I'm going to fight my problems to the end. I want you to fight your problems and help people with what you're going through. We're going to do this together." That was the last conversation I had with Gary. Wow. And so, I had some downfall since 2012, but since then, that's been my thing to try to carry the message. Not for Gary, because you could do things for certain people, but until you you do it for yourself, it doesn't work. So, that's where I'm at today. Wow. Well, that really strikes me, you know, very courageous of you to you know, to be open about it and to talk about it, but you said something like men don't talk about their problems. Yep. Today in our society, Michael, I mean, Michael is like the number one father I know. Mhm. Aw. Yeah, and and I think in our society, it's much more acceptable to talk. There's much more of an environment that it's it's more it's not taboo anymore. Like it's not okay, like you don't have to just man up. I I feel like I wish like, you know, 20, 30 years ago, like when my parents were growing up, that they had more access to that kind of things we have access to today. Today, we're much more in understanding society that so much could have been avoided. So much things could have been different if we didn't have that mentality of being so closed-minded and not being open-minded. And understanding that these things exist and this is real life problems and everybody is susceptible to it. Everybody can get sucked in very easily. And let's deal with it instead of shoving it under the rugs. And how many people suffered and suffered and suffered because of it? Oh, 1,000%. And the thing is, like my parents, I know for a fact my dad, like they love me, no doubt about it. My mom would say it, my dad never said it. Like he grew up that in his household. He grew up in the sticks in Georgia. Um like I say, that's where he was brought up. Like men don't hug. Men don't tell another man you love them. So, I had to learn all that stuff so I didn't do the same thing with my kids. I had to break that cycle. And I remember one time my therapist said, "Well, when you go in the house, you go up to your dad and you give him a hug." And I went in the house, I would go up to my dad and give him a hug, but he put his hand out. Aw. And so, I put my hand out. And I'm not blaming my dad. I'm not justifying cuz that's just the way it was. And up until I finally in 2018, I got two DUIs in 1 week of living in New Jersey. And the the courts wanted to send me back to rehab, but I had already been to maybe seven rehabs, right? So, I had to put my ego aside, my pride aside and say, "You know what? I need to go to a mental institution to get this right." Cuz I remember times I used to be crying, literally crying going to get drugs. So, something there wasn't right. Something there was mixed up. And I said, "No, let me go there." They said, "Well, you're not crazy." The first thing they say, "No, you're not crazy." They don't know what's going inside. They don't know like on the outside I can dress up nice, but on inside I'm bleeding. I mean, bleeding bad, right? And I went to High Focus and um Morristown in New Jersey for a year. That's when I found myself, to be honest with you. I mean, anything can happen tomorrow you go outside that door, I get that. And just by going there, and again, people like my kids, I told them, "Look, I'm going there. This is what I have to do for myself. I can't do it for you guys no more. I got to do it for myself because if I don't, I'm not going to be around much longer." Once I did that and put everything aside, the feeling that you guys said I gave you guys when I played on the field, that's the feeling I get now when I go speak at these schools or talking to a kid and just sharing my story with them. And that's how I was able to forgive myself for what I did and the people that I hurt and my kids I hurt because like you said, everybody suffers from that disease. It's a terrible disease. Everybody suffers. Everybody's got mental health to a certain extent. Some have it worse than others, but the word mental health 25 years ago was like, "What what are you talking about? What does that even mean? You're making it up. Like it's stop it, get over it, grow up." That's right. Now, it's a real thing. We understand that people have emotions and everybody deals with it differently. That's But where do you think, Doc, this like really you were living your best life. Like you were you just are a World Series champion. I mean, you have your whole future is ahead of you and and everything right now is amazing. Yep. You know, like so a lot of times people succumb to, you know, to different things that are they're being tested with when they reach their peak or when they're at their lowest. Like what was it for you? Like at that moment, you're right now World Series champion, and what were you missing? What did you feel like you weren't getting even though everybody from the outside probably thought Doc's got it all. Doc's on the His stock is on the rise. It's a great question. I had it I everything was there. I just think like I knew how to make you happy, but I I knew how to make myself happy. That was part I could make myself happy for a day or two on the mound, but away from that field, what what how can I make myself happy, you know, on a consistent basis? That's what was missing. And then I was one of the type that always trying to fit in. I wanted to be liked. I wanted to I wanted to fit in. If you're okay, I'll make myself okay. When I would go home, all my problems happened back in Tampa. Guys that I grew up with, you know, hanging on the street corner, hanging on the tree, still doing the same thing. Somewhere in my conscience, I want to go show these guys I'm the same guy, but I'm not the same guy. But I want to fit in. I want them to think I'm the same guy. But I'll put myself in danger. So, you're like kind of living two different lives. You have your Oh my god. You have your baseball Doc Gooden life, and then you have the Tampa Dwight Gooden, you know, that your friends know and you want to still be a part of that. And you're kind of you're kind of, you know, dancing between the two. Yes, I mean, And I was messing with you. And literally, I mean, you got the nice cars. I'm just giving it to you straight. Nice cars and I'm going back to the projects, hanging out in the projects, 3:00, 4:00 in the morning, just hanging out, playing cards, all that stuff because this is where I grew up, but where you grew up, that that don't mean that's who you are today. And just to separate the two. And again, I'm not justifying anything. I totally put myself in that situation. And it took me to get beat down beat down beat down beat down so many times by myself to finally get it and understand that. You You mentioned it when you said you one of the last times you went to rehab is you said you did it for yourself Yes. as opposed to others. Yep. Can you talk about that for a minute? Like what did that mean? Because, you know, a lot of people that I that I know in life go through rehab. Yes. And they come out of it and then they have to go back again. Yes. And it seems like you mentioned a pivotal moment. Yes, and that was me. What it was was 1987, I tested positive. I didn't have to take the test. I didn't know nothing about drugs. I just knew I liked it. The Mets tested me in spring training, tested positive, said either you go to rehab or we can suspend you. If you go to rehab, we're going to pay you. So, I said, "Okay, I'll go for 30 days cuz I wanted to get paid." So, I went cuz the Mets sent me. I tested positive again. They suspended me. Go to rehab, pay or not. So, I was going for the money and then uh it's '94 then '95 I tested positive. I was suspended from baseball. I was a strike year. '95 I tested positive again. I got suspended the whole entire year. That's where I went back to rehab and they said um either you're going to be out there this whole year without pay get back in the baseball. So, I was doing it for baseball purposes. I was doing it for my mom. I was doing it for my kids. But I never said I'm going to do it for myself. I would never accept it. In my mind, even though I was at rehab, they teach you this stuff. They teach you this 12 stuff. They teach all this stuff. But in my mind, I always felt like I was different. Like we talked about earlier, like if my curveball wasn't working, I knew how to fix that myself. If my fastball location was off, I knew what I had to do to fix that cuz my dad taught me. But with this disease, I didn't know how to fix that by myself. You can't I can't do it by myself. I had to ask for help. So, but I had this ego thing that saying, "You could do this. You know what to do." And then sometimes you start saying "Oh, you can do it, but it's not a disease. You just, you know, you're soft. You got to tighten up. You got to do this and that." It would work for a little bit, but it wouldn't work. Last time in 2018 when I went to court, they wanted to send me to rehab. I said, "No, I need to go to the the mental institution. I had to just put my ego and my pride aside and just accept what I was and do it for myself. And I told my kids, "I'm going in for myself. However long it take, I'm going to do it." And the first couple months, it was tough. It was very tough because again, my pride was getting in the way. Like, how can I be here after the the baseball stuff, the wars, and this and that. But you had to put the baseball stuff aside and say I'm dealing with my life now. My life is on the line. I've been to prison. I've been to jail. Been to rehab. Only place I haven't been was the cemetery. And if I don't get it right that's next. And I had to accept that and understand that. And when I first got to That's heavy. It's very It's very heavy. It really is. When I first got there to tell you how this disease works. When I first got there, I'm looking at these people in there and I'm like, "Wow, I don't belong in here." But I said, "Wait a second." I looked at my track record. I saw I was exactly where I belonged. I had to accept that. And as I was in there, I started feeling good about myself. It took time. Big time. But this time around, you did it because you wanted to. Cuz I wanted to. You you were out of the denial stage and you recognized that I I do need to be here and that's the further road to recovery starts with acceptance. That's the first thing. Best thing I could have done for myself. For myself. Wow. Best gift I could have gave myself. Doc, just so you know, you were a public figure. I mean, you had your poster hanging in Times Square for over a decade, I believe. Something like that. I mean, you couldn't go anywhere without seeing the face of Doc Gooden. That kind of pressure that kind of notoriety would get to anybody. Um you know, I I keep saying like if I was I could only dream of having that kind of accomplishment to my to my belt. But I mean, you you did it all. You you couldn't probably walk the corner without having hordes of people just chase you down. Like you were a celebrated person, especially in in New York. You I'm I'm sure in entire Major League Baseball, but in New York, you you were the it thing. I mean, this is bound to to to get anybody, but let's let's talk a little bit about the good times. Let's go back to that. So, it's '90 it's '86, '87, something around there and you sign out a 3-year $15 million agreement with the Mets. Yep. They extend you. I mean, this is this is a dream come true. This is the moment. This is This is now big time and like you don't even know where to spend this kind of money at this point. You know, like it's it's a it's a substantial amount of money. So, what happens when that contract comes in, you sign it, and what what what happens from there? So, from there initially, I remember go back to you before '87 um I went to rehab. We're going to get to the part I went to rehab. I was there for 2 months. I come out. I still won 15 games. I went 15 and 7. And the Mets gave me a $100,000 pay cut. And that crushed me because I felt like I won 15 games. I missed 2 months. And I won 15 games. I still had the most wins on the staff. Everybody got raises, but I took the cut. So, I said, "Okay, no problem." And in my mind I know the New Yorkers don't want to hear this, but it didn't happen, but in my mind, I'm leaving. I said, "I'm out of here. I got one more year, '88. I'm out of here." I'm a free agent. free agent. I'm gone, right? And so after the '88 season, that's when we lost to the Dodgers, unfortunately, and they gave me a 3-year deal. And they when they approached me, everything was forgotten. You know, all the personal feelings gone. And by getting the 15 million, I I remember going back thinking to myself, I remember sitting in front of the stove for heat with my parents. I remember sharing the same coat with my dad. Now here I am, I got $15 million coming to me. What can I do? And with myself my dream was already set. I got to play Major League Baseball. That's all I wanted to do. Um I'm good. I got um my one son at a time, Dwight Jr. Um I'm married. Um so, at this time, I moved the whole family to St. Petersburg. And I buy this whole block, right? Um I get my sister a house. I get Well, two sisters. Two sisters got a house. My brother's got a house. My nieces got a house. My nephew got a house. My parents got a house. And now I finally move out on my own cuz I had to live with my parents my first year in the majors and get a house. So, we got this whole block that we own. And you bought everybody a house? I bought everybody a house. Houses for everybody. Wow. Houses for everybody. You're a lucky brother. Did your agent take care of everything for all this? Like how did you go about, you know, who was facilitating all this? So, my agent, that's a whole 'nother story. Oh my god. But um he helped me facilitate all that and my mom, my sister. My mom didn't want to do it. My mom's a hard worker. Like it took me to sign that contract before I got my mom to retire from her job. Um my mom worked at a nursery home and she was happy with that. She was That's what I get from helping people. My mom she'd help everybody. She'd cook for the whole neighborhood. We were all on the stuff. My mom finally got to retire, but my agent was against me doing that. My mom was against me doing that, but I said, "Mom, you know, because my sisters helped me when I was a kid with whatever I needed. All these people helped me and I just wanted to give back um and I just and I was very close with my family and I wanted everybody to be on that be together. Um for one time I thought about just buying this big house and we'll all move together and my mom said, "That's not happening." Wow. That's a crazy idea. So, everybody got separate houses. No mortgage. You pay everything out in cash. Everything else. And you just buy everybody uh Everybody had their house. Everybody They didn't have a car. them brand new houses or you bought existing houses? Bought existing houses. Bought everybody Bought people out and um that was one of the greatest things I did, you know, for my family. Um Do they still live Anybody still live in any of those houses? Everybody's gone now. Everybody's moved back to Tampa. Um unfortunately, my parents passed away. My brother's passed away. But um at that time, it was one of the greatest time. We had like maybe 5 years that was great because everybody always had a hot meal. We used to have cookouts in the middle of the neighborhood. And you were funding everything. Say it again? You were funding everything at the time. And the neighborhood everyone knew you in the neighborhood there. in the neighborhood. I mean, it was great, man. We had block parties. Like when um in '97 when Sheffield won the World Series with the Marlins, we had a block party for him. I mean, it was just so much fun. The kids, you know, all in the street. It was just Where Where's Gary through all this? He's also He also He's also making money right now. He's living He was living in one of my houses. I had a So, I had my house and another house where you know, next door. He was living in that house and then he bought him a house a couple doors I mean, a couple blocks away. He got married. He lived in that area as well. Yes. But it was just like I think those 5 years were the best 5 years of my life was with my family. So, what what are what else you doing? Are you Are you doing anything else with the money? Are you investing any of the money? Are you trying to be a little savvy about it? Or right now you're just spending and living the good life? Just spending and living the good life with and putting some away, but then that's where the agent came in. We asked about the agent. So, I had condos and townhouses in Tallahassee, Florida that I didn't know nothing about. Cuz the agent had did and so a lot of times I try to talk to athletes about agents and different things. But but my dad used to always tell me "Son, even if you understand or not pay attention. Read everything." But I got comfortable with Once I got a credit card in my pocket, I'm good. Um I'll let my wife and I'll let the agent handle everything. But at the same time, the agent was investing all this stuff that I didn't know nothing about. Unfortunately, in um What year was it? '90 Say '90s '96 maybe? No, I bought the houses in '90 Wait wait wait. Oh, '87. I'm going too fast. Yeah, yeah. You bought them in like Bought the houses in '87. Bought the houses in '87. So, um and so I had to be '95 I finally got the I don't know if you guys know Reading Grown. At least I met this guy, Vincent Cain, that worked on Wall Street. Very smart. And we started talking. He's like, "Yeah, you need to check this. Check this stuff. Can I take a look at this?" And we developed a relationship to where we going to a lot of AA meetings together. So, yes. And I let him I forced my agent to show everything and that's how I found out. This guy did all that to me. And this guy was like going to church every day. Clean-cut guy we thought had been clean since '85. And he was messing you over behind the scenes. Behind the scenes taking So, he was making some moves. He was pocketing some of that money. All of it. And so so he also bilked you out of some of that money. A lot of it. Yes, a lot of it. I got some of it back, but not quite as near as what I do. Was he an agent for any other players or he was just for you? Chef you. Oh, so you and Chef you. Yeah, he got Chef. Chef got When it happened to me, Chef got you know, got out of it and found out he was doing the same thing to him, but he took a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff from him. That hurt me, too, but a lot of it was my fault because my dad told me never hire have attorney that knows your agent they work together. Look at everything and I wasn't doing it. I was just happy with what I had and knowing that I can go to bank and tell them I want. I was young and not paying attention. You you didn't have a Jewish accountant, Doc. No. That's the problem. I got one later. That's the problem. You didn't have somebody with a yarmulke on their head. I got Lee Rosenbloom later. I cleaned up everything. You need some kind of Berg, some kind of Berg, a Berg will clean it up. A Bloom, a Bloom is good enough. A Bloom works. Yeah, yeah, they'll help you out over there. Yeah, for sure, but it's that's crazy. So, that was your biggest contract. That $15 million was your biggest but throughout your career um and you know, what kind of endorsements did you have? You had some big endorsements as well. Toys R Us, I had Nike, I had Pepsi. Gatorade? Not Gatorade. Balloons. I had um Mercedes. And who was negotiating all these all these endorsement deals? Your agent? Yeah, well, the agent did a little bit first and then the guy Vincent Canby came in the second behind my agent and did all that. So, I had a lot of a lot of fun with that. So, you were making money on the side as well outside of just baseball, but just baseball alone, I mean, you made north of $30 million. Yes. Throughout your career. Yes. That's a substa- that's an astronomical amount of money. Yes. Um that can you know, set you up for generational wealth if you know, if you if you do some some things with the money. Yes. Was there anything that you're proud of anything that you did with with some of the money like anything at all like What was What was the splashiest thing you did other than buying these houses? What was the splashiest thing you did? Splashiest thing I did, I think um helping like homeless vets. I built them big house down in Tampa that that house like 20 some homeless vets. I think that was my biggest accomplishment for me because my dad was a vet and um I and still today it saddens me because you look at LA, all these homeless people. Mostly homeless people are the ones that fought for our country. They got nowhere to go. So, when I built that in Tampa and I had it running and watching it while going doing the off season down there and spent time with these guys and seeing the smile on their face and their family come visit. Some of them getting back with their family and stuff. That was my biggest award, be honest with you. That that sits right there with the Road Series and the Cy Youngs. Yeah. To be able to give back like that. You know, they they changed the landscape today a little bit. Today in the athletic world any sport, whether it's basketball or football, any any sport they pay you big salaries they don't they don't give the money anymore to to the players like all at once like like anybody gets caught up in that. You hand me $5 million, I'm going you know, I'm buying a yacht, you know, and I'm going to go party a little bit, right? But like look at Shohei Ohtani, right? One of the biggest sports stars today in the world. He deferred most of his money for paying it out over the next 100 years. And and that's a really smart thing because quite frankly, you don't need that kind of money to really live, you know, and Also, you you find out people find out, you know, you signed a big it's public knowledge. Everybody knows you just made a lot of money. All of a sudden everybody comes out of the woodwork. All of a sudden your friends come out, all your extended family comes out. And how do you say no? How do you say no to everybody? This guy's been my childhood friend since I'm you know, 10 years old. This is my family member who knows my mother, who knows my grandmother. And you want and Doc, I can tell just by sitting a little bit with you. You're a generous person. You have a good heart. You're a nice guy. Like you're you're you don't come across like this arrogant, you know, a sport I've done this and that who Now, who are you to talk to me? You're the opposite of that. So, like you would probably very hard time saying no to people. I got burned plenty times even by family members. I got burned by the same thing. Um tell you real quick with my niece. So, once people started like in the neighborhood I got all the houses and then I had a house that Gary was staying in that was my house, but then when he built his house, I had the house open. I was going to give it to my mom's church and then some of my my sisters start moving out in the neighborhood. They getting married and moving out, right? So, my niece her boyfriend was locked up and so my sister said, "Would you let Anita was her name, would you let her stay there?" I said, "Okay, I'll let her stay there for a couple months." So, I let her stay there. Then I said, "All you got to do is pay the utility bill. That's it." That's it. Just the utility. And so, I had to get her to sign the paper on the on the for the house. You know, I was going to pay the utility bills and she had like three kids and I'm living next door. So, they come eat everything and then even the utility bill most of the time I'm paying it for. Her boyfriend gets out. They move to Tampa. So, now I said a point about moving. I'm retired. I'm going to sell the sell the house, but I need a signature back on there so I can sell it. She says, "What do I get?" I said, "What do you get?" So, to make a long story short, I had to give her $10,000 so I can get her signature on the paper so I can sell the house when I let her live there for 2 years for free. That's my niece. That's my sister's daughter. Wow. That makes me mad. That makes that See, that's people you give them a nickel and they take a dollar instead. Like you give them a finger, they want the whole hand. Not just once, sir. I had friends do all kind of crazy stuff. I helped get cars signed like co-signed for a car. The car break down, they don't want to pay for it no more. So, I had the car towed. Then they get pissed because I had it towed. We're not speaking no more today. I mean, just crazy stuff because of my kindness. I let people take my kindness for weakness. And these are relationships that get affected forever because of these things. And these guys I grew with like that guy who did that, my friend. We knew each other. We lived close to each other since we were 3 years old. And today we don't even speak because of what happened with the car. I mean, so did you really have my best interest or did you like me for what I had and what I could do for you? Well, I had I had to learn a lot of stuff along the way, you know. And you know, now all I can do is share my story with others so they don't make the same mistakes. For sure. So, Doc, I mean, you had a very colorful uh life. I mean, you had a you had experiences that some of us can only dream of. Yep. You did you've seen it all, you've lived it all, you had your ups, you had your downs and a lot of in-betweens. Yep. Um you've you've you've been there, done that, you know, and it was a roller coaster ride and a lot of it on public display. A lot of it a lot of people got to see it as well. Yep. Um but that door is sort of shut. Like you're in a different part of your life right now. You're in a different phase in your life. What is it like today for Doc Gooden? Like what does your life look like outside of baseball, outside of the sports world, outside of that? Like what let us in a little bit into like What does a normal day for you look like? Oh man, it's just fun. Every day just fun, just laughter. Um I have nine grandkids. I get to share FaceTime my grandkids every day. 2023, I was inducted into the Negro League Museum Hall of Fame. Then last year I got my number retired. Those awards you see on the table right there all from like mental health and addiction, helping people, giving back, all that stuff like that. And now I wake up. I have fun. I have a son that goes to University of Maryland that plays football. I have a daughter that's first year in high school. She's going to play softball. So, I'm either down in Maryland or I'm in Tampa seeing my grandkids. Some of them playing sports. I'm at the Met games, Yankee games. I'm a Met at heart. So, last year going to the games is a lot of fun. And watching sports and just enjoy my life, looking back at like you said, what I was, what I'm doing today. And I'm proud of my accomplishments. The things in this room I'm proud of. Proud of everything I accomplished. I'm proud of the relationships I've made throughout my career. But most important today I I I'm proud of myself. And I'm not trying to blow smoke cuz I know where I've been. I know where I come from. I know the things I accomplished. But today I can look back and say I'm proud of myself. I know how to make myself happy today. I know what I've been through. I'm glad that I went through the things I went through. I'm sorry that I hurt the people that I hurt. But I think if I hadn't went through certain things, I wouldn't got to where I was today. And today I'm very happy with what I'm doing. There's no pressure on me. I'm glad I can get in my car and drive not worry about the red lights behind me, You're a private citizen today. You're just living the everyday life and enjoying your family. Yeah, like I go to grocery store. I'm just saying hi to everybody. I try to be still recognize you right now when you go outside like when you go to the grocery, do they say, "Hey, they recognize you right now?" A lot of people. Always still. Sometimes what happens is one guy will say, "Hey, Doc Gooden, let me take a picture." And then that draws attention, but Uh then they're going to come and say, "Who's that?" "Oh, Doc Gooden." "Oh, Doc Gooden." Like they've heard of you. How many times you said, "No, I'm not Doc Gooden." Who's Doc Gooden? Who are you talking about? No, I don't mind, but like if I'm with my grandkids, then it's I don't I don't fool around. But um it's fun. It's still fun. I go to Little League games. I I do stuff with the Pete Academy. He has an academy right here. We do a lot of stuff training kids. I just try to be as normal as I back right now. You really are. And that's that's amazing. By the way, we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about the fact that you have something you did in Major League Baseball that only approximately 300 other people ever did in Major League Baseball. And there have been thousands and thousands of people that have come across the game. Right. But in '96, I mean, talking about comeback, talking about you know, changing your persona and learning from things and becoming better for it and not giving back. I mean, you had the epitome of that story, which was you were struggling in the early '90s. You were coming in and out, you know. And by the way, you were still pitching pretty well throughout this ordeal. Like you were that good, Doc, that you were able to have your you know, your your habits, you know, off the field and still be able to do your job and you still performed at a very high level. Yep. But then in '96, you came back. You for the New York Yankees. And I'm a Yankee fan at heart, by the way. I apologize. But I'm a Yankee fan at heart and it's a unforgettable moment. You come in there and you pitch a no-hitter. Michael, I think if I have the number correctly, I think it's about 323 people have done that in the history of the game. Baseball's around for over 100 years. Over 100 years it's around. Three Well, I should say 300 since we we started recording that stat. So, it could be from the 1930s. But that's that's you're you're in such a small little tiny class of people. And after all this, you come back and this is a a life lesson, Michael, for people. Is that you can have any situation happen to you and still reach such great heights. What was that like? The no-hitter The no-hitter Doc, many people dream of having even a shutout. A complete shutout game is a big accomplishment. A no-hitter? How'd that happen? Wow. I mean, I'm I'm up here shaking my head just saying that because like I said, I don't like blowing smoke up my own horn, but that day as you as you talking about it, I'm reliving it, right? And I don't get choked up a lot talking about this stuff, but that day everything that happened with that, like you saying I get suspended from baseball. I go to Betty Ford Institution in California. Come back. The Mets want to cut ties. And then you have the strike, right? So, I'm sitting home, still struggling. Test positive. I get suspended for the '95 season. Now I'm missing a whole season. So, now I've been missing a year and a half. Um thinking that it's over. I remember at times missing my kids' birthday parties, missing all this stuff, right? Now I start working out at a junior college trying to get back trying to get back. Um nobody wants me. George Steinbrenner, I met a meeting with George. Bless his soul. And all he talked about Randy Levine said I went He said George want to meet me. I met George. Now in my mind, I just want to play baseball. We talked about everything for 2 hours. Didn't bring up baseball. So, I left that meeting like, "Wow, he don't want me." The next day George called me. I met him in Tampa. He called you himself? Yes. And it was me, my dad, Randy Levine, the late um Billy Connors, and George. We go to Yankee Stadium, we talk. We there for hour. He said, "I want to give you a contract." I'm like, "Wow." And to be honest with you, no offense, but I hated the Yankees. I hated the Yankees. If you're not a Yankee, everybody hates the Yankees. I hated the Yankees. I'm a Met. I hated the Yankees, right? And I'm like, "What? I miss New York. I miss the fans in New York. I want to make it right with the fans in New York." And I had an opportunity to go to the Marlins. That's where um Gary was playing the Marlins. I had an opportunity to go there. But I'm like, "I got to go back to New York. I got to make it right with the fans." So, the Yankees say, "Stay out of trouble. Pitch away. You know you can pitch, you'll be fine." Again, this is all about that 0 and 3. I start off 0 and 3 with the Yankees that year, right? And I'm thinking to myself I haven't gave up on myself. I said, "I know I can pitch. I just I'm just off a little bit. I'm just off." So, they take me out the rotation. They trying to decide whether to send me down to the minors or release me. And if you ever heard of a pitcher been benched, I was benched. That mean I'm not getting in a game if I'm up 10 or down 10. But Mel Stottlemyre, that's why it means so much. He would bring me to the stadium every day early and we kept working. We kept working. Kept working. We was working. Working. And I'm like, "Man, I got to get this. I got to get this." And Mel said to me one day, he goes, "Do you believe you still can pitch at this level?" I said, "I do." I said, "I do believe it. I just got to I just need time to get it." He said, "You don't have time, Doc. You got to figure it out." Unfortunately, David Cone got an aneurysm in his arm. And George Steinbrenner was the only guy said, "Put Doc back in the rotation." Nothing against Joe Torre, but Joe Torre said, "Doc is done. I don't want to put him back in." Brian Cashman Jerry said, "No. I'm I'm not putting this George Steinbrenner is the only team said, "Put Doc back in the rotation." My fourth start back in the rotation, if my memory serves me correctly, was the no-hitter. But what made it so special, I felt like it was coming. But we played against Seattle. Seattle got Ken Griffey I'm blowing smoke now. Got Ken Griffey Alex Rodriguez, Edgar Martinez, three guys that should be Hall of Famers. Uh-huh. Jay Buhner, Paul Sorrento, Russ Davis. I mean, you got all these guys, right? And That's Murderers' Row right there. Murderers' Row right there. And what made it so special, my dad had been on dialysis for 15 years. And he was going towards the end. And the day that I pitched the next day he was having open heart surgery. So, I was supposed to fly home that day be with my dad because they said he probably not going to make it because his health is deteriorating. But if he don't have the surgery, he definitely not going to make it. That morning I woke up, all I could think about was the time I spent with my dad at the Little League Fields, the time I spent at the little um Cincinnati Reds games with my dad, all the time father and son spend together. I said, "You know what? He would probably want me to pitch." So, I called Joe Torre, who was the manager of the team. I said, "I'm going to pitch tonight." He said, "No, go home, be with your family. When you're ready, you come back." I said, "No, I'll see you tonight. I'm going to pitch." Then I called my mom. I said, "Mom, I'm not coming home." She said, "You have to come home. Your dad is expecting you. Need your support. All the family's going to be here. Tell me what time your flight gets in. We'll pick you up." And I hung up on my mom because she was making me feel guilty, right? So, I get to the park. Talk to Mel Stottlemyre for a little bit. I said, "I'm ready to pitch." And the first inning of that game, Joe Girardi is my catcher. I was just whatever he put down, whatever he signed, I would just throw it. But I was standing in the walkway between the dugout and the clubhouse. You know, totally thinking about my dad, wondering if he's going to make it through, right? Not until the sixth inning I realized that we had a no-hitter going cuz I looked at the scoreboard to see what hitters was coming up. You see no runs, no hits, no errors. You're like, "Wow, sixth inning, I got a no-hitter going." So, I was able to put my dad's situation aside. Ended up pitching a no-hitter against Seattle that day, right? And I remember when I got the last out and the team was carrying me off the field all I could think about is where I was prior year um getting kicked out of rotation I'm at Yankee Stadium doing this. Is my dad going to be okay? It's all going through my mind. And after the game, I took a ball from the game. It flew home the next day. I said I'm going to go to sleep. And when I got to the hospital, he was on life support. The doctor said he did get the he did get the radio. Um So, he heard? He heard the game, yes. He ended up passing away. Never made it out of the hospital, but the last game he saw me pitch was that no-hitter. So, that will always be special. Unbelievable. Wow. Unfreakingbelievable. Yeah, and I was I remember I was at the bottom, what they call rock bottom. I was at the bottom, a year and a half out of baseball. To come back the first year and do it. That's why, you know to live that to live that in my whole my story, I try to tell kids that no matter what you go through if you believe in yourself and put the work in that you have to put in and you're true to your true feelings you can dig yourself out of it. You might not get back to that top where you was, but you can get back out. It will help your life. That's what it's all about. Absolutely. And you gave your father his dying wish at the end of the day. This is what he wanted for you. He wanted this for you from a very young age. And you gave it to him in the most immaculate fashion. In the most immaculate way you gave it to him, which was which was really astounding. Unbelievable. I mean, that was incredible, that whole experience. And for the people that got to watch it live, I didn't see it live, but um that was like one of your one of your highlight moments. Is it though? We we have some some questions that we want to throw at you, Doc, okay? Just now as we're wrapping up over here. Okay. Um just like let us in a little bit because, you know, for us outsiders, we don't really know what goes on in baseball. We only see that 2-hour window that they show us on you know, we don't see what happens in the clubhouse. We don't see what happens, you know, when you're going out with, you know, First of all, let me start with this question. Yep. Does everybody in baseball know each other? Like Like do you have the right to contact somebody on the Pittsburgh Pirates, a guy that, you know, you're interested in just chatting with because you're part of the same community, you're part of the same league? Or is it like every man for himself? Like, "I don't know why you're talking to me. I don't know you. We both play baseball." Like, how how did that how did that work? So, you mean like a guy from if I'm on the Mets and I call a guy from the Pirates? Yeah, like can you get somebody's cell number just like that because, you know I mean, you could like there's two parts to that because this is a different era. Like during my time, I wouldn't even want to talk to nobody on the Pirates. Like I mean So, you didn't have friends around the league? No. You had no friends at all? Like you knew who you knew? Well, I take that back because like like say like Fred McGriff, Wade Boggs Tino Martinez, Luis Gonzalez uh trying to think who else. Derek Bell. All of us from Tampa, all of us playing against each other in high school. Grew up together. Like Derek Bell grew up with Sheff, the same backyard. Guys like that, but I wouldn't call them. I would talk to them in the off-season. I wouldn't do it. But today's, I'm sure they do because a lot of them have the same age. A lot of them work out together. Yeah. And but you do have access to that if you wanted to. You do have access. Like right now today, like if you made a phone call to I don't know Derek Jeter, like he takes your call? Yes. Yes. So, cuz you you established those relationships right when you played together. We played together. But on the second hand of that, there's certain guys you play with that you don't want to talk to. Mhm. Ever? No. You know, some guys just don't hit it off. Like say like um I mean, whatever. I hate to throw names out there, but like say like Jeff Kent, right? He was a guy that we played together and with the Mets and he wouldn't hang out with us. And I remember right I asked him, "Why don't you go on the road with the guys, hang out eat a steak or whatever?" Yeah. He said, "My real friends are back home." Uh-huh. So, he was not about it. Yeah, so they had to get rid of him. I mean, you So, even within your own team, you weren't friends with everybody. You were you know, you picked and chose you know who you were friends with. Yes. I mean, you try to get along with everybody. You respect everybody because we all have the same common goal. And you're with your teammates more than with your family. And you're not going to get along with everybody, but you try to respect everybody. Like even our '86 team we was cool, but at times, you know, you get into with different guys at times, but you work it out. Mhm. Who absolutely crushed you every time? Like who Which hitter were you like, "Damn, he's a coming up. I can't get him. He's got my number." I thought we was having fun. You said I'm sorry for bringing it up. I would say probably Chili Davis. Really? Chili Davis wore me out. And he was a guy like I should throw nothing to hurt him, but throw it high and tight. Hit him in the leg. Do different stuff to try to intimidate him, but it wouldn't work. It wouldn't work. Wore me out. Some It was such a different game, wish Yeah. You don't understand. They don't throw high and tight anymore. No. Everybody's so sensitive now. Everybody's so like delicate. what go tiny. I'm like, "Man, you guys He got this big old elbow pad on. He's crowding the dish. He's comfortable. Knock him down." Dude, the guy's The The got $50 million more. Like more like $70 million on stake this year. Like if he gets injured, like he's a he's an asset he himself. Like they got to protect that. That's a liability. Yeah, protect that. But if I'm a pitcher, I'm not I'm not I'm not saying hit him or hurt him, but you got to we we taught to move his feet. Yeah. You don't want to hit him. Maybe change his eye level. Yeah. Down and away, up and in. Make him uncomfortable. Make him What what rules today in the game is so much different than it was back then? Like what's the most standout thing for you that's different in today's game the way it's played versus when you played? I think the pitch count with the pitchers. Mhm. You know, um when I played, when I take the ball, my goal is to go nine innings. I'm going out there trying to go nine innings. And it's not the pitchers, it's more the system with the analytics and all that. Yeah. These guys get to 100 pitches, they getting guys up. This guy's facing a lineup the third time around, they don't want that. want that anymore. No, they're looking at velocity, spin rate. You take like a Greg Maddux or Tom Glavine today, scouts wouldn't even look at them because they only do maybe 89, 90. But I would take that guy that had movement, knows how to pitch, pitch deep in the game than the guys that's throwing 102 that guy's no control. So that bothers me the most with they taking these guys out, not letting them pitch deep in the games. Wow. How fast can you throw a pitch right now? Right now? If we step outside and we ask you to throw a pitch as hard as you possibly can, what do you think you clock? 100. Really? Wow. But but it would take two pitches. So like 50 miles an hour, 50 miles an hour. You add it. That's good. You? No. I see you. I see you. They had to chew so like about three years ago, I'm at the Mets fantasy camp. Like if you guys love baseball, look into going to Mets fantasy camp. I'm serious, a lot of fun. You play you got a week you in your locker room, you got your uniforms on, you play two games a day. And the last day the campers playing against the former players. It's a lot of fun. So about three years ago I'm at fantasy camp, right? And I'm pitching and I'm feeling pretty good about myself. So I tell her scorekeeper I say put the velocity on the scoreboard. He put up there 65. I said either turn it up or turn it off. But it's it's a You're embarrassing me. Yeah, it's embarrassing. I got a reputation in town over here. It's nothing there. Unfortunately, Doc, we got to come to a close. I feel like we can do this all day. We're we're having a great time. We'll do it again. We we should definitely go to a game together. Yeah, that's what we do. That'll be that True. That would be fun. that. Yeah. One second. What about Michael before you wrap up? I know you're about to wrap up. What do you got to say about this Soto situation? Is he going to is this a good move for the Mets? I mean obviously it's a good move, but is are they going to get what they think they're going to get out of this? Like you know, the Mets don't have the greatest luck always. Sometimes they find a way to you know, to mess things up. What do what do you have to say about this Soto situation? my personal feeling like I'm a I'm a obviously I like the New York team, I'm a Mets fan. I was glad to see it happen. I mean it's a lot of money obviously. Um but when you get a guy like that, you got to build around that. You can't stop there and and um expect him to carry the team for a series. You got to continue to to get the pieces around him. And I think they will. So I like it. Um you got a owner that you know, can do that. Um I think the Mets and the Yankees made out good with that. I think by the Yankees not getting him, getting Soto, they're able to Yeah. more stuff. got that guy Judge over there. Yeah. Um your favorite pitcher that you emulated during your time that played while you played that you were like, damn that guy, I want to be more like him. Nolan Ryan. Really? Nolan Ryan was my guy because Nolan Ryan had the high leg kick that my dad would taught me. And then one of the best um what you call it? One of the best motivating talks I've had was from Nolan Ryan. In '84 I made the All-Star team. I got to talk to Nolan and Nolan told me he looked forward if he's not pitching and they're not playing and I'm pitching to watch me pitch. I'm like, wow. Here's the guy I used to pretend to be in my backyard three years ago telling me that. Yeah. That's all I needed to hear. That's crazy. I took off from there. Uh this was amazing. I mean you know, usually I do all the talking by the way. So I'm mesmerized. I'm mesmerized. I know I love it. I love it. This was fun for me. I this was the Yeah. I Doc, one one question. Yeah. When you were when you were a Met early early '80s, '86, were you looking out in the crowd and you see a bunch of like Jewish kids like were you like, oh man that's cool, you know, Jewish guys come Shea Stadium to here having a good time? Yeah. Like did you like Did you even notice? Notice Or like Did you notice us? So you know what's funny? And I don't mean this no disrespect anything. I didn't really know difference between a Jew guy, a white guy. We're all the same. the same. Yeah. I'm just being honest. I didn't know till later on. And I got kicked out of school because of you. Yes. Yes. We like Jewish community. Like like You got the strongest Jewish sports fans. Absolutely. Very big. Very big. And like my brother's a huge Mets fan. I happen to be a Yankee fan, but like I grew up going to Shea Stadium. Like you know, as a little kid every time we had a vacation or whatever it is, Yeah. went to a Mets game. Yeah. It was it was it was an experience we like Passover we came with our little bags of matzah. And and we sat there, you know, in the early spring and it was freezing, you know, with whatever food we had. You would really screw us. Baseball really messed us over when they made those games Saturdays. We can't watch the game on Saturday. We don't watch we don't use electronics on Saturdays. Still today? You can't Still today. Like Saturday morning we go to synagogue and everyone's walking around going Who won? What's going on? Mets won. Yeah. No no none of us know because we don't have TVs on. We don't have our cell phones open. So like it's like So that's as kids or adults? That's adults. That's everyone. Yeah. That's our life. Yeah. Our phones, all electronics from Friday night sundown till Saturday We have a relationship with the local deli, you know, where we So Harland He he was bar mitzvah. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. So before before we wrap up, again I just want to mention thank you to Prime Source of course for sponsoring. Please don't forget to like and subscribe and get involved. Um just want to ask you we do this to all of our guests and I hate to put you on the spot, but here we go. All right. You had a good time? Had a great time. I'm not just blowing smoke, but this is great and um hopefully you guys have me on again. I appreciate it. Do you have any questions for us? No, this is great and I wish you guys all the best. Well, we we do have a question for you. Our question for you is if you can recommend someone that you know that would be a good guest on our podcast, who would that be? A guy that would be a good guest for your pod. I would say Darryl Strawberry. Darryl Strawberry? Yes. Can you call him and ask him for us? Yes, I will. Will you? Yes, I will. That'd be a good guy to have. All right. I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Yeah. And again, thank you very much, Doc. Thank you. Appreciate it. Doc, this was an honor. It really was. Thank you. It was all mine. All right. It's a wrap, folks. That's a wrap. Thank you. All right. Yeah. You went to see all topsy.