Addiction, Rock Bottom & the Road to 1,000 Days Sober. Dani Bin-Nun gets Real.

I don't even know what we're going to talk about. >> We don't We never know what we're going to talk about. We just know it's always going to be good. >> Remind me your name. Just >> and Michael >> F. >> And Donnie. >> And Donnie. Yeah. >> Bin nun. >> Yeah. Got a good last name. >> Like Yeshua. >> Ben. >> Get out of here. >> My father's father's name is Yeshua. >> Ben. >> Whatever way you go, I have the answer. >> Okay. >> Sums it all up. >> Yeah. Literally. Because it wasn't even the real name. Would you like aim? >> I noticed that first thing. I was like, are we going to do shots on that pod and then talk about addiction? >> A thing for you. Was alcohol. >> Everything was a thing. Everything was a thing. Alcohol was like a baby. I used to like try and say that it wasn't just so that I could still drink. But like everything that could be addicting, I've tried. So alcohol was like first step into addiction because like going from like a regular yeshiva bucker to using or to trying to find addiction in whatever way I could alcohol was the easiest to access. So like it was normal. I remember like per 8th grade that was the first time I realized I was like oh I like this. >> Eighth grade. >> Eighth grade >> was 12 12 years old. You mit. >> No no I was 13. >> You already mitzone? >> Yeah. I don't I don't even remember much of it. But I just remember I drank like a bunch of sweet rashi wine which ended really badly the next day but like I remember that night I like had a blast. >> Was sweet rashi the only thing you had access to Neville? >> Pretty much. It was it was a tough life. >> Who the hell had sweet rashi wine? Who was it? >> That person should be arrested for having sweet rashi wine. >> I know, right? This is what they got me. They're like okay you're going to get like everybody knew what was going to happen. Very yes area. And like it was just like okay everybody gets drunk even eighth graders. And it was like that's what they prepped me with. They got me two bottles of like 7% sweet Raji wine and that was my first drinking experience. >> Welcome back everybody to another growthoriented incredible episode of the none of your business podcast. I'm your host Michael Greenfield. With me of course is Ushi Schwarz and today we have an amazing guest Donnie Ben Nun. It is so nice that you're here with us today. Thank you. >> Good to be here. >> I appreciate you joining us. Of course, we are sponsored by the Prime Source production team and uh we are making waves in the industry of senior Kiroshi and uh thanks for all that you're doing and all the work that's been happening in in our world of procurement and expense management. If anybody needs to uh manage their expenses from a u point of view of I don't even know what I'm saying. I'm trying to do the pitch, you know, like forget the pitch. Delete, delete, delete. Um, and >> oh, are we going to be heavily edited? >> What? >> Are we going to be heavily edited? >> No, no, no. We don't This This is going to probably make it in. >> By the way, he's doing this for like 75 80 episodes. And >> you know what? You know what it was? By the way, 96 episodes. Thank you very much. >> I'm 85. You're 95 maybe. >> That's true. Uh, but honestly, what was in my head was that we're not only in senior care, we're in others. So, I was like thinking to adjust the pitch, but whatever. Regardless, if you're running an operation, you want to learn how to save on your expenses. manufacturers, distributors, specifically in senior care and others. Come to us. We'd love to help you and work with you. We have an amazing team with Ushi at the helm. Um Donnie, it's really good that you're here and I appreciate that you came here. And um this shirt is very, very comfortable that I'm wearing. So, thanks to you. >> Me, too. >> Oh, and Usher, you too. >> Yeah, Michael. Me, too. What a coincidence. >> Yes. Yes. I also got a shirt. Yes. And I'm glad I did because I have to say the shirt is sitting very nicely on me. It feels good. And I'm feeling lucky, too. I feel like I'm going to go out and maybe buy a scratch off and maybe I'll win something like that lady did in Spring Valley last week. You heard about this? >> I did. >> You heard about this? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I actually know them very well. >> You do? >> I know them very well. >> 5,000 a week for life. >> Yeah. Yeah. 5,000 a week for life. >> How many scratch offs did it take? Is it like a constant scratch off or she just lucked out? >> No, no, no. She's uh not a serial scratch off purchaser. She just, you know, randomly went to the store and she bought one. And >> you know this for a fact. >> I know this for a fact. And I I also happen to know the dude very well. >> Oh, >> and it could not have happened to a nicer guy. >> Oh, that's so nice. >> Could not have happened to a nicer guy. And he's a very big balad like in his community. Everybody knows that he helps out a lot of people. And he's just a great guy. Positive energy, always smiling. Fun fact about this guy. Very fun fact. He drives a school bus every morning at like 600 6:30 in the morning to take kids to school. And he doesn't do it for the money. He doesn't need the money. He's pretty uh wellto-do. And he does this for years and years and years cuz that's his contribution for his community. And every morning he gets up early just to drive the bus and take the kids to school. He owns some real estate in the area. And people know like he doesn't really like charge, you know, rent very rigidly. He gives people breaks. He's a sweet, sweet guy. A really nice person. And his wife, too. And this is what happens. God uh is paying it forward. It's a beautiful thing. >> Wow. Thanks for sharing that. I did not know that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. >> And the nice thing is that, you know, people typically get like a little jealous, a little Everybody is ecstatic for him. Everybody's like, "Oh, you know what? That's awesome, right? >> That's awesome." >> Unlike me. I was in 7-Eleven the other day and there was an old woman who was buying $20 scratch offs one after another after another. She bought like six of them. Yeah. And she on the spot she doesn't even scratch it off. She goes to the bottom barcode, scratches it off and scans it. You ever see people do that? >> Yeah. >> Talk about addiction. >> Yeah. >> So, um >> that's terrible. >> Yeah. So, anyways, she lost like six one after another and I'm like I got to try the next one. I won 100 bucks. >> Felt so good. >> Oh. Uh, speaking of addictions, um, sorry I first of all, I'm I'm addicted to your energy. I want you to know when I walked into Attica to buy a shirt five minutes before Shuis, I did not expect to meet you and be greeted with such amazing positivity and energy. And I came in for a shirt and I left with with an entire wardrobe because your clothing is comfortable, the atmosphere is nice, and you have great energy in the store. And what you're doing to give kids, you know, an opportunity as a second chance and having them work there in that environment and training them is amazing. Uh before we get into that whole world which uh which I for sure want to explore and unravel, tell us a little bit about yourself, where you from, where'd you grow up, who's your family from, give us the uh 90 second overview if you can. >> 90 seconds. >> Oh, she made me do it into the 90 seconds. >> As we're walking in here, I said, "Michael, please, you know, don't take too far back with the guests." Like, >> let's get to the part where things get interesting. But he's like, "No, no, no. People actually appreciate the flavor and the color. Like they want to get to know you a little bit, and you have to go back for that." That's all I hear. Somewhere in the middle. Somewhere in the middle. >> Middle. There's a lot of flavor there. So, it should work. >> Sprinkle it on. >> I'm saying like I moved to Baltimore when I was about 12, 13. That's really when like things started getting interesting. Um, so my family was living there. Now they live in Lakewood. They call it Jackson, but it's Lakewood to me. Um, and a regular family. Got three siblings. Pretty standard upbringing, you know, father, black hat, white shirt kind of guy. Um, I'm also a white shirt kind of guy, but a little bit different. And yeah, I got into the suit industry probably when I was about 18, 19. And now, thank God, you know, Aika's taken off, connected to Borcelino. And that's pretty much what I do for fun and for a living. And that's how I met you, literally like two minutes before sh was like, first I was like, come on, man. It was like three o'clock. I was like, this guy just walked in here. And then um it turned out to be a really nice experience. Yeah, I appreciate that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh let's go back a little bit more. Sorry, Yoshi. I got to do it. So, uh you moved to Baltimore when you were 12. So, you were in a school in a regular elementary school and you were moved. >> I was from right. We were imp. I was in Yeshivana regular school. Some kind of problems in schooling, but like nothing major. And then we moved to Baltimore and it was like a new opportunity for me because I wasn't getting along with anybody. Like nowadays, I really like have plenty of friends. I get along with everybody pretty easily. I'm actually in the industry of getting along with people if you think about it. Like selling clothing is like you just kind of got to vibe with people and growing up it was like the opposite of what I did. It's like so I moved to Baltimore and I had this opportunity like new school, new chance and it went miserably. And one year after that I went to Detroit. I moved there for a year to try a new school, new opportunity. also didn't go great, but I stuck it out for another year. Went to high school there, and that's when things started getting really exciting and fun, which we'll probably get into. >> Surprise, surprise. Things didn't go well in Baltimore and Detroit. Bunch of winning places that you uh that you went to. >> Overall, >> no offense to people that are from there, but they're not exactly known for, you know, producing. >> They're always >> How are they not going to get offended by that? >> They have some really good. >> They have some good things. >> It was our source of pride. Baltimore and Detroit. That was like the two highest crime rates in the country. And I was like in both places. How old were you when you went to Baltimore? You were 12 then? >> Yeah. 12. >> And it was eighth grade. >> Seventh grade. >> Oh, seventh grade. Okay. So that's a big transition. >> Oh yeah. Like I got bar mitzvah and I didn't know anybody. Like I got bar mitzvah in the beginning of the year. >> So like I don't know these kids. And it was like very confusing. Like I kind of made like a bar mitzvah in between where nobody from either side came. But officially the plan was to have both sides come like Baltimore. say, but >> when you're when you're becoming a teenager, you know, there's a lot of challenges that you deal with and when you don't have any friends, like you're moving to a new location, I can't imagine how much more difficult it can be. So, I'm curious about how you handled it. Like, you know, we we joked around earlier about the first time you had your sip of Rashi wine, right? So, I'm curious what happened in that world like when you were there on your own in school and just like um I look at all the children now in schools, right? the boys and girls, the teenagers and what they're exposed to social media and all that stuff, but I I see a lot of drinking going on and it's been a discussion that we spoke about in the past and I'm curious how you got exposed to it at a young age and what happened there and like if you can just break it down for me a little bit on your >> journey. So actually very interesting. I wasn't exposed right away. I was originally originally I think my first real like addictive behavior was probably something I was prescribed to because I wasn't getting along with kids which equaled a lot of fighting and a lot of troublemaking. So they put me on I definitely have ADHD. They weren't crazy for putting me on focal which was to help curb and help me concentrated but it made me kind of like a zombie. Um, and my first like glimpse of addiction is I started double dosing so I could stay up like here. You want to get some interesting details like this. My older brother finish in 10th grade. So yeah. Yeah. Shamara. >> He's genius. Like the best of the best. And then I'm right under him and I'm a train wreck. >> Well, that's a very bar set very high. >> Oh. Oh yeah. The bar was really high. >> Finished shots in 10th grade. Yeah. Jeez. >> Yeah. In Philly, like the best, the best, the best. And then there's me. And so, obviously, me being me, very competitive. I was like, I could do that, too. I definitely could not do that, too. But I tried. And that was like my first glimpse into addiction. It was like, first of all, that's such an addictive mindset of like, oh, he did it. I could do it, too. Like, why is he better than me? Um, and so in ninth grade when I started realizing like, hey, he's this kid that everybody's talking about. like, "Wow, he finished shots. He's his brother." I was like, "No, no, no. Um, I want to be the brother." So, I started like taking these medications, double dipping. I would take it in the beginning of the morning at like talking 4:00 or 5 in the morning, start learning, then go to sleep at 11 at night because halfway through the day, I took another one. So, I'm just this like absolute zombie on like a bunch of caffeine and u focal, which is a speed medication. And >> and it's a controlled substance. >> Yeah, definitely. I was prescribed, but when you double dose, right, don't they notice when you finish it like half the way through the month a little too early? >> No, because when I wasn't in school, I wasn't taking it at all. And >> I guess they were just happy I was taking >> You were using it at your own leisger. You were figuring out when it when it >> I was having fun with it. Even though it's like it wasn't fun for me because it was just like hyperfocused make me really intense. Like now I would even if I was still using I would stay far away from it too. Not my thing. >> I want to get back to that in a second. I'm just curious to pause for one quick second on this topic is so um kids these days who have challenges like from what you've learned and experience when do you turn to medication versus not? Do you have any rules that you created for yourself and you have a kid you're you're going to you're going to be a parent uh for a very long time and you know challenges come up with their friends and so on. So do you have a mentality or a frame of reference of what you went through of what to do or not to do when it comes to medicating? Uh >> I stay away from it. I try to leave it to the professionals. I mean overall I think if you cannot then it's always better. Like for me I really feel like it robbed me of a lot of my childhood. like I saw what I w was like on it versus off it. Like I'm this focused kid who couldn't eat really curbs your appetite. So this ADHD medication that's supposed to help me curb my appetite made me really intense. And I think like me without it like once I stopped taking it at 14 when I went completely off the rails which we'll get to. All of a sudden I started getting along with kids. I was myself. So for me like if somebody asked me should I give it to my kid or should I not give it to my kid? First I would say don't ask me >> but if you are asking me I would say like if you could avoid it avoid it otherwise like seek professional I just want to chime in over here because I have a little bit of knowledge in this in this area. >> Uh not because from for myself just I've I've been around and I've heard from other people. It's called controlled for a reason. It's a control substance. It could be the best thing for someone and it could be the worst thing for someone. You need a medical professional that's guiding you, like a real psychiatrist that's actually diagnosing and that's also monitoring and that's in tune with the child and what's going on and they're, you know, checking it on a weekly or on a monthly basis. And uh there's like the stigma around this like, you know, ADHD medication. It it's different reactions for different kids, you know, it's different uh doses that's going to work, you know. So, this is something that just has to be managed. It has to be controlled by a professional. And there isn't one shoe size that fits all. Some people it works for, some it doesn't. It could be a wonderful thing. It could be an awesome thing. It could change people's lives. You might be robbing a child of a good life if you don't actually recognize it's a problem. And you don't treat it with proper medication. So it can go both ways, but your experience sounds like was not very good. It sounds like it was a >> it was supposed to help. >> It was abused. You were taking you abusing the medication. before that it was supposed to be something >> that was supposed to help me focus and do well in school and like >> and you had the adverse effect. Yeah. >> Yeah. Correct. I didn't do well in school anyway. So >> there are some uh therapists and doctors who just simply don't believe in it. That's what I was trying to get to. Also, there's >> I had a feel that's where you were going with that's kind of what I was weeding out philosophy and it was like a little bit of a trigger for me because I don't know what that means that there are certain doctors or certain people that don't believe in medication. I don't know what that means. That's ridiculous. That's absurd. It doesn't make any sense. Those are like, you know, those um conspiracy theory people, you know, that no no vaccines, right? Those kinds of people that would like stay away from anything that's >> I don't know if you can compare the two, but it's an interesting topic. It's not for me to discuss, but I was I was curious of your opinion, but yes, there are people that >> No, you don't. >> So, we don't believe that pigeons are like Asian spies or something, Chinese spies. You never heard about this? >> We're going to talk about conspiracies now. >> No, I was just That's my favorite one to hear about. >> No, but you're making you're making a good point. So, uh, continue. Sorry. Go ahead. >> Um, so >> you're saying you were double dosing on the medication that you were >> correct. And, um, it was I didn't even realize what I was doing was weird. It was just like a mean end almost. It was like, I want to do this. I want to finish by a certain deadline. This is how I'm going to get there. And it was like wildly unhealthy. like anybody who saw what I was doing and experienced it knew that it wasn't going to end well. But like there was no reasoning with me at that point. It was like um there were people in my life who were like comparing me to my brother which was not helpful. Um I really think comparison ruins so much in in all areas of life. Like stop comparing who has a nicer car. Like today that's something I could tell myself you know it's it doesn't matter. Just focus on myself. But I got compared by people who were supposed to be helpful to my life and it was very detrimental. So then I have this singular focus that I'm going to be like my brother and finish and it was working. I mean I was I I I could still quote a good Gamarra here and there. I really could. >> Does your brother some big rash of Shiva today? Is he >> honestly? No. But he's finished house like a billion times. Like he's very holy. >> So he's not even in the learning world. He is in the learning world. Yeah. Yeah. He's no learning. He's >> But he still does this full time. Like he's learning. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay, great. >> I hope he doesn't listen to Bos. He's so mad at me. >> Like, don't tell anybody. >> He was probably unaware of your experience. Like, >> oh. Oh, no, no, no. He's heard me now. >> Yeah. But at the time, at the time, he wasn't like, you know, triggering it or he wasn't, you know, doing actively anything. It was >> No, other people who shouldn't have been saying anything at all um were doing that. But >> what do you mean by that? Okay. So, like um say not my parents specifically, but parental figures or guardians. Um I was very into sports at the time and like that was my outlet. And as a kid who wasn't getting along, wasn't fitting in. Like that was my outlet. And like looking back like come on, I was a kid who was struggling. That was my outlet. That's the best outlet in the world. There's nothing wrong with it. I love to play and I love to watch sports. >> And you were being told not to. I remember I brought one of these people to a game I was playing and I was really good. I was a talented football player and um I had a great game and afterwards I went over to him and I said, "Did you see that catch? Did you see that blah blah?" I was so happy to tell him and the response was, "Yeah, but at this point of the year your brother was finished half a shot where you >> and I I just like I still remember where I was standing for that. I was >> terrible. >> It molded me. It really it made such an impact. The next morning, I literally started double dosing. And it wasn't even like a I'm gonna do this to get back. It was like, how can I become worthy in this person's eyes? Because I I had such a low self-confidence. >> Wow. >> That I needed the approval. And to get that, the only means was this. So, it just all >> You had to ramp up. You had to do whatever it takes. >> They backed you into a corner. >> Correct. And 1 plus 1 equals two. And so, that's how it went. >> Okay. >> Then eventually, >> what was next? What happens next? >> Double dosing, sleeping three hours a day and drinking a bunch of coffee at 13, 14 years old is a recipe for disaster. So, at a certain point, I snapped. And that's when it all gets fun. Like, I didn't snap mentally, but I just like stopped caring. I was like, "What am I doing here?" >> You crashed. >> Yeah. I was just done. I was like, "Why am I do I'm gonna do all this and then they're gonna tell me that." You know what I mean? So I was just like I got an iPod started watching movies got into that whole field where it's like I'm kind of doing something wrong like I'm in a very yeshivish yeshiva and all this is like just taboo and wrong like you can't watch movies and honestly I actually had a very strange period where I was still doing a lot of learning but I also wasn't keeping Javvis so I like that's how twisted it was. I was just trying to get approval >> by learning. So, I'm doing all the learning, but on Shabas, the Ravens had this crazy playoff game >> and I'm sitting there with a broken radio in the yeshiva bathroom in between Stardium listening to the game. Literally like the radio was broken. I had to hold it in with the batteries and listening on headphones like just craziness. >> That's crazy. Michael, did you hear what he just said? I mean, this is the classic, you know, this is the old adage like the cure cannot be worse than the disease. Like his parents probably had good intentions. Like they wanted to push him to learn, but what they were really doing is they were taking all the joy out of it for him. Like it wasn't even genuine anymore. It wasn't even about the learning itself. It was just like an activity. It was just something that he had to do. And what a shame. What a pity that you went through that. >> Yeah. I always say it could have been so different. I'm not mad at how it went. I really I'm so past that. I think I'm everything happens for a reason to a certain extent, but I always tell like my parents when I have like deep hearts like it could have been different. It just it never had to go down the road it went. >> Yeah. >> Is there something you have in mind when you say that? >> Um yeah. I just look at my siblings and you know I come from a regular family and like my older brother like I don't envy him. I I don't but but like I do believe like I wish I had uh maybe didn't go as far down the path I went. I just think I could have been, you know, maybe done less wild things in my life and maybe been more connected to God because the farther you stray, the harder it is to come back and I'm working really hard on it, but I still feel like there's something missing. I almost feel bad for a lot of the things I've done and where I'm holding. >> Michael, Michael, step in. This is not okay what he's saying. I don't like this one bit. I I'm I'm still letting him I know exactly what you're thinking, which is I appreciate that giving me the floor to do that. >> Yes, this is this is your area. >> I know, but I still want to hear him out. >> I'll say no. I I know what you're going to say. I should be proud of like how far I went and how far I've come back. And 100% I am. But that's not my point. My point is like I just feel like when you go as far left as I went, let's call it left, that to get all the way back to where I really would want to be and like to have a connection three minion a day, a real connection which I feel is reality and like I want my like I want to look back when I'm 60 and say, "Wow, what a great Jew I was first and foremost. What a good great family man. What a great father. What a great husband." But like I believe like Hashem, God runs the world and like that's something I'm missing to the extent that I feel like >> I can't I can't keep listening for this. >> No. So again, so I'm going to answer you in in terms of >> I mean your past your experiences literally defines who you are and you're going to take all those experiences and you're going to share it with others and people are going to be able to learn from. If you wouldn't have gone through what you went through, how will other people be able to take anything away from it? It's not about you. You're thinking just like singularly about yourself, but there's a whole array of people that are there today in that moment where you were and you could actually share some solutions. You can actually show them the other side of it. This is this is a special thing that you that you went through. I mean, you're here today to talk about how you've shifted over to the other side, right? You're not still stuck in the mud where you once were. That's not the conversation we're having today. Um, I actually think that, you know, this is, uh, unbelievable that you're here today and you're you're ready, you know, to talk about it, to share with people. That's what this that's what this podcast is all about. But your past absolutely is a part of your present and 100% a big part of your future. Without that past, you wouldn't have that future. >> Oh, 100%. And I wouldn't switch it. Like, I wouldn't take it back. That's not my point. My point is it's just it could have been different. So, selfishly, like I think I have much more to give the world now for sure. But selfishly, maybe I think life would have been simpler to do certain things that I would want to do. >> So, I'm gonna add my little two cents into what you're saying. So, and and I appreciate your vulnerability and opening up and telling us your thoughts about this and and Ushi's spot on from what he's saying in terms of responding, but just so we're on the same page about this. So, when you're suffering about when you go through a challenge in life, I think what Ushi is trying to say pointed is that that gives you the tool to help others in going through that, right? So like um I have anxiety. I now know what it's like for other people to have anxiety. So therefore I can connect with them better and I can go through the process of what it's like to go through therapy and how can you use that to your advantage. And um Joey Rosenfeld talks about this all the time. You know utilizing those anxieties and those challenges to connect with God. It's something that many people can't do because they didn't experience that. So you you have one leg up against others in many many different ways. And the discussion really is, and I love this because, you know, you're being a little bit hard on yourself in terms of, you know, all the things that I could have had, um, but looking forward, there's so much more that you can springboard because of all of your experiences. And it's not something that I don't think we're fit to actually, you know, tell you these things and make it work in your head, but it's worthwhile the discussion of looking back and saying, you know, I wish it could have been a little more peachy, certain things, a little easier. Um, but I think what Oshia and I are are saying together is that we want you to work with that, you know, history of yours and teach us and teach others and understand what people are going through when it comes to these types of things. Is that resonating with you a little bit? >> 100%. Like I I agree with you guys 100%. I think we're all in agreement that the ceiling is higher. It's just I don't know since we're talking about gamarra and all the things I learned there's a gar that talks about where it talks about it's like >> I I don't know what you just said you got to explain it >> that that all these people these big rabbis went through serious pain >> okay >> and because of the pain they got greater reward >> okay >> so my only point is that there are times it really depends on my mood I agree that my reward and what I could bring into the world is high. But there are times where I selfishly, like I said, >> don't give me the pain and don't give me the reward. >> Correct. Where I'm just like, you know what? Like, it could have been different. It didn't have to be this way. However, here we are. And I again, I wouldn't go back. I really think it's molded me. And the the harshness about myself is one of my biggest driving factors. It's very hard. Sometimes I have this voice in my head that's really hard on me, but it also gets me everything I've gotten. I don't know how to take it 50 miles per hour. I'm just full go all the time and and it's really good for me, okay, in a lot of areas and hard to live. >> Let's get to continue knowing him and we'll go back to this. >> By the way, this is a worthy conversation. This exchange is very fascinating actually because both of us like vehemently disagree with with what you're saying like conceptually like we actually think that it's a beautiful thing like it's to be cherished. >> But he's still admired your >> past. He's still allowed to say that you know it would have been nice to have something different. Meaning he's not denying what we're saying. He's actually accepting it. It sounds like it. >> You're just focusing that little thing in your head is focusing on the past of what you know could have been a little bit more peachy, >> right? No, but but I I I just want to emphasize that one point that I wouldn't switch it. That's not what >> we're accepting that you're still looking at it. You're still pointing it out. >> I'm just like, hey, it could have been took a comment of his a little bit. We went a little bit too fine. I I like this. I've gotten into before. >> So, let's keep going. So you're you're in a stage now where you're starting to now remove yourself from your daily routine with your Shiva and with everything else. What happened? >> I'll almost set the scene because of how wild it was. Okay, so I'm one of the better guys in yeshiva. Um I'm learning all the time. Older boys are coming over to me asking me questions because I really know my stuff. I'm not keeping shabas. I have an iPod which is like so wrong in this world and it's just really confusing. Eventually I get I don't remember who caught with the iPod but the iPod gets caught gets put in the Raj Shiva's office. So me being a clever kid um I used to learn with the Rajiva he switched the code on his uh office because he knew I knew the code because I used to learn with him. So I go over to one of his kids and I'm like huh I bet you don't know your father switched the code. And he's like yeah I do. I was like, "No, you probably know the old code, which is this, this, and this." And he's like, "No, the new code's this, this, and this." I was like, "Oh, you do know. Very well done." >> That night, I go into his office, take my iPod, and Okay. Then a different kid of his comes over to me and he must have been using the iPod while it was in his father's office because he knows that it's not there anymore. And who could have it? So, he's like, "I know you have the iPod again." And I'm just like like what do you want from me? He's like either give it to me or tell or I'll tell my father. >> Wow. He's blackmailing you >> essentially. Yeah. >> And um so there's not much choice there. And then he gets caught with my iPod. Um and yeah, that didn't end well. So obviously it was my fault and everything like that. And um this is another interesting thing. So he brings me into his office. He doesn't tell me like, "Hey, I have your iPod." He's like, "Do you know what happened to your iPod?" So obviously I'm he's essentially asking me do I want to get kicked out of yeshiva or not and this is my life. I don't know anything different. And I said so obviously I lied. And he looks at me and he says you're a really good liar. If you are not in my yeshiva in the next couple years you're going to be in a state penitentiary. Um and you're kicked out. And he said it like it was it was brutal. I remember it was like a big turning point in my life where it was like this is somebody I looked up to. This is somebody I learned with. This is somebody that I really cared about and I cared about his opinion and he essentially told me um he didn't tell me I'm worthless but >> he rejected you >> strongly. Yeah. And I would say like three weeks all bets were off literally like I went back home to Baltimore and I think the Yamaka was off like three four weeks. I was like quick with it like I am with everything. Just I was done and it was just like >> And how old are you at this point? 14. >> Oh wow. So you're still very young. >> Yeah. And I was just like I was just angry. I was done. I was like the kids didn't accept me. I didn't have any friends. The people I then veered to for guidance told me I got to be finishing shots. I didn't succeed there. The rabbim that I loved threw me to the curb. and I'm just trying to make it in this world and I'm hurting and everybody is telling me I'm not good enough or I'm going to end up in a state penitentiary or whatever else it was and it was just like >> it was a really big like just kick you know I was I was done >> well >> I was like let me try something different >> wasn't animosity towards Judaism it was animosity towards everything that had happened to me >> and I was ready to just like why should I do this world any >> try something else Yeah. No. >> And I did. >> That's sad. >> Yeah. >> So, what happens next? >> Um, new friends, new acquaintances. You know, my my family, I'll give them so much credit, tried their absolute hardest to adjust. They kind of like said like, "Let the ball roll it will and see what happens." And the ball went rolling. Um, I'd say a few weeks later, I found some new friends to hang out with. All of a sudden, people didn't really care how much Gumar I learned. They didn't really care anything. It was just let's all hang out and get into some trouble. So, it started with drinking. I'd go out drinking, you know, try to meet some girls, whatever it was. >> And again, this is all you're 14 still. >> 14 years old. >> Wow. >> And just no girls. It just ended up just getting drunk, coming home puking. Yeah. I had no idea what was flying. And it progressed slowly and surely. I would say probably two months after Yeshiva, I I actually was signed up for camp and I was went to a learning camp. This is like two weeks after I get kicked out of school. I'm not from it all. Get signed up to camp where you learn half day and play sports the half day. That was an absolute disaster. just the like the nail in the coffin of >> You went >> I went I went because like I ended up playing sports most of the time, but like I was a mess. Like emotionally I was really just I I needed an an escape and that wasn't it. So I got kicked out of that and that was just like a real I was like I'm done. Like Judaism is not working for me. Let's try something else. And um few weeks later I started smoking weed and that was just the start of a new experience. Things didn't matter. Everything hurt a little bit less. >> And how old are you right now? >> 14, maybe 15. >> How old are you right now at the moment? >> Oh. Oh. >> How many years ago was this? I'm trying to figure >> 13 14 years ago. >> Okay. I'm only asking because like weed marijuana back then was today maybe it's not as frowned upon. like it's it's not great today, but >> back then it was like it was drugs. >> Yeah. >> It was always frowned upon to a 14-year-old though, so regardless. But yeah. >> Yeah, I get it. But today, if you hear a 14, 15year-old smoking weed, I don't think it has the same impact as it had back then. Then even an 18, 19year-old smoking weed back then was like, "Oh, what's going to be? His whole life is in shambles." >> Also to to really set the scene, like this is also a kid that six months ago was wearing a white shirt, right? >> Black pantsy sheish. It's all happening behind the years and now all of a sudden he's >> smoking weed on Chavez and Wellwood with a bunch of >> If you don't mind if I can uh zero in on that time that you're at right now with the scene being set, you know, camp getting kicked out, friends smoking weed. >> What were the things that people and I would love for you to continue, but again another thought I'm having and I want to ask you at this juncture you're going through. What are the things that your family or friends or parents uh the parental people like you said before, uncles, aunts or whatever said or did that helped? And what is it that they said or did that hurt? Anything throughout this dangerous. Okay. Um I would say the biggest thing that helped was my parents didn't unconditionally love me, they unconditionally were proud of me. So they did unconditionally love me. Not that they didn't, but they also were proud of me. My father and my mother, but my father mostly because I was a little closer to him. No matter what I looked like. And there were various stages where I was a mess. He if I wanted to go for a walk on Shabas with music playing, no keepa, smoking a cigarette, he would walk holding my hand down the street. Zero cares in the world. This is my son and I'm proud of him. >> Beautiful. >> And that was something that from the beginning, from the get-go, I always knew that one day I would get right just to pay him back for that. I was like, he doesn't he doesn't care. He just wants me to be healthy and whole again. And right now I'm hurting. And I knew that. And I always like had this feeling like I know something went wrong, but I want to go back to Judaism. knew that deep down, even not so deep down, but I always knew like that was going to be something that would play such a big role where I would say, "Hey, you know, even when I looked really bad and I probably made you feel really bad, you were still proud of me and showed everybody that I don't care." Like, that was able to really just make a huge difference that I said, "Uh, I'm going to pay you back." And I did. Beautiful. I appreciate you saying that. That's that's pretty awesome. On that same note, were what were the people saying that were hurting? What was the feedback that you were getting or the direction that people were giving you that was like not working? So, some of the things that I really didn't like were um you know, like getting set up with these like rabbis and I was like they're t they okay they get paid a few hundred bucks or I don't even know even if they weren't paid but they come talk to me and they like tell me what I'm doing is wrong and I have to switch it up and like >> they're using logic with you. >> Yeah. Even even more than logic, like not they never said that, but like oh you're gonna you're gonna ruin your like >> I'm a 15-year-old kid who's completely off the rails. I need love and support. >> Yeah. >> And understanding and like, hey, what's bothering you, not do better or else. >> Do better or else doesn't work anymore. That's out the window. My parents understood that pretty quickly. They shifted gears. They used to be like why did you leave during the rabbi speech kind of parents to like we're here to support you. Let's get through this together. >> Kudos to them by the way. And I'm curious. So you said that you were thinking about Judaism. Were you thinking about also healthy living or was the Judaism the only thing on your mind when you're going through this process? >> At which point like like to get back to healthy living? >> No. Like right now you're you're not living a healthier lifestyle, right? You're like you said you were smoking your cigarette. you know, you're smoking your weed, you're walking on shops, listening to music. >> There's two things happening at the same time that I'm curious about. One is the Judaism aspect. The other one is just being, >> you know, healthy. >> So, was healthy on your mind or was just Judaism? >> No, just Judaism. The healthy was like completely like, right, >> I was like, I'm a 15-year-old. I I think in my mindset, I was like, yeah, this is going to be like a little stage. I'll smoke weed for a little bit or weed isn't bad, depending on where I was holding. Weed isn't addicting. That was my favorite thing to tell everybody. guy who smoked non-stop day in day out for years in a row. I wasn't sober for even a minute, which we'll get to. And yet, I had the audacity to tell everybody weeded's not addicting. I don't know what you're talking about. By the way, I I don't care who doesn't like that. Weed's addicting. All drugs are addicting. >> Everything is addicting. >> Yeah. Everything. >> Everything is Anything that makes you feel a certain way. >> Some things are worse than others, you know, but but it's all addicting. >> So, you're getting exposed to this uh lifestyle more and more. You're making friends with people in this world that are just, you know, >> totally different world, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Continue. Sorry. >> No, no, no. Um, so then it quickly set the like things moved really quickly with this as long as everything else. Um, I I would say for about three months I I got into this zone and then at a certain point the money dried up. Now, I'm just this 15-year-old kid who I don't have any more money from anything to do. I'm not going to get a job because that would be too complicated. So, what am I going to do? Um, so then I realized at a certain point that if I buy a larger amount of weed and give some to my friends, then I just paid for my own smoking. And that cascaded into a whole literal entrepreneurial situation where I was making my money. I was exposed to a lot more craziness because that comes with a whole new cast of people. Before it's just the neighborhood bums as people would call them or whatever it is. So all of a sudden now I'm in Baltimore City buying large amounts of weed and it's a totally different friend group. This is not >> You're a drug dealer. >> I'm a drug dealer. >> At this point you're dealing drugs. There's no two ways uh about it. >> I wasn't sure if I was going to share that on the pod, but yeah, I I I went all the way. Yeah, I I mean I never sold anything besides weed. I had rules. Um, honestly, like looking back at it, like obviously it wasn't a great thing, but I I did do it in a semidecent way where I never sold any weed to anybody who didn't smoke before and I never sold anything besides weed, but it was still I needed to make money. This was my way of doing it. And I have this raging drug habit that I now have to support and that took cost a lot of money. I I love to talk play the game. I tell my wife about it all the time. I was like, "You know how much money I would have if I didn't use drugs?" And she's like, "Yeah, but you wouldn't have sold them then." And that's the flip side, but that's not the way I think. But yeah. Um, so now I have this business. Let's call it that. >> How much money you're bringing in? Let's say >> at the end. >> Yeah. The height. Give me an amount. >> Um, >> what do you mean at the end? How old? How long has this been going for? >> This went for three years. >> Three years. >> Oh. Um, six figures. six figures. >> He was making a living. >> I was making more than a living. I had a lot of money. I had a lot a lot of money. >> And where were you living at this point? You're not living at home, right? I am living at home. >> You're still doing this from your house? >> No, I wasn't doing anything for I I mean, I was doing a little bit from my house, but mostly I was I was very creative. I had people doing it for me and I had things like that. At a certain point, I had the right connection. Good friend of mine who's no longer with us actually. Um I started off with with him. But but that that's another thing people don't talk about and all the glory all the things that I was so proud about like it's a short-lived process for a lot of people. I lost a lot of friends along the way. a lot of good kids who were struggling same as me. And it really hurts to talk about honestly like like that just hurt even to say it like these are Jewish kids that I was friends with that suffered similar things to me that got unfortunately listen I'm not going to blame only the system but they got failed by the system to a certain extent all of them to varying degrees hurting and found their own way and a lot of them either don't make it back or don't make it at all And it's it's brutal to even think about. It's like that's why I said I wish I could have had it easier. I wish everybody could have it easier. I wish there was a system in >> I wonder if a lot of those boys and girls didn't have the kind of father and mother you did. >> I know. >> And is that a big contributing factor? Because I I actually when you said it like I was listening to it at the time and I caught it and I'm a father, Michael, you're a father, right? And I'm just thinking like if God forbid, you know, my son ever strays down a path or my daughter goes down a path that, you know, isn't great for them, how would I respond? I think I think that I would be supportive and and and loving, but it's very hard. It's easier said than done because there's a lot of other variables. You have other siblings, you know, you want to protect them. We're humans. We're embarrassed. You know, we're shamed. The experience shame is a real thing. And it's not so easy to just take your son and prop him up and make him feel like he's loved and he's you went as far as to say that he was proud of you. You felt like he was proud of you at the time. I wonder if this was the X factor. This is the driving difference of why you're sitting here today. >> You guys want to hear a crazy story? Okay. I didn't know this story. Someone told me I was selling him a suit in a store a couple years back and somebody comes over to me and he says, "Do you know me?" And I had no idea who he was. I didn't remember at all. And he tells me we were at a bar mitzvah together and I was sitting next to you. This is apparently a cousin of mine bar mitzvah and somebody was speaking for a really long time and I was all kinds of messed up and apparently the guy was droning on and on about it and at one point very loudly I was sick of it and I cursed and I said when is this guy gonna freaking finish? And I was sitting right next to my dad and you would think like okay that's like pushing it so embarrassing. Come on. like you're saying like embarrassment. Like that's terrible. You know, there's literally a hundred people here and your kid just yelled, >> you know, the f-word and ruined the speech or whatever it was. And he said, this guy tells me, he said, I've never seen it before. Your father said, hey, Donnie, give it two more minutes. I'm sure it'll be finished soon. We can do it. I don't even remember this. >> Wow. >> But like >> that's crazy. >> Yeah, >> that's crazy. What a great story. >> What do you think? I made it. you're definitely uh you know on to something in terms of the X factor in terms of uh communication and acceptance and it's undeniable. Um and it was hard for you to talk about it a minute ago and I felt something inside me also because I've lost a lot of friends and I was mentored a lot of kids that lost their life and we've spoken about this before on the podcast many of which probably 100% of all that did not want to go meaning that you know but I'd like to learn from your experiences so I want to talk about that for a minute. You say you lost people, friends and so on. >> Countless. >> Tell me through take take us through that journey a little bit. What was that like for you and the people around you? What did you learn from it? What could we learn from that as much as you can? >> Um what we can learn learn from it is that nothing's every everything matters. Everything is meaningful. Like these are human beings that have strong feelings, strong emotions. that have ways where it can go disastrally bad and end in whatever way it ends. Whether it be suicide, whether it be drug overdose, which are not essentially the same thing, but somewhat the same thing. Or these are people like me who have similar experience by the book and by the numbers. It's very possible I should be dead. And I'm here. And the only difference in several of these circumstances is I've seen these people and they don't have the support. They have the people who have given up. They have the people who said, you know, enough's enough. Let me protect the other kids in the family, which I don't blame you for. I totally understand it. That's a totally different ballgame and minefield to navigate. But you I could have been given up on. I should have been given up on. Like if you really break it down, I was a mess. Cut me off. I wouldn't blame you looking back. I wouldn't blame you. But they didn't. And I made it through because I have this support network and these genuine love which conquers all. Like Sunonny Pearlman, great mentor of mine. I'm sure you know him well. He always tells me what's the opposite of addiction? It's connection. And when you when you have this kid who's suffering, who's so close, who just needs a hand up and you just kick him to the curb and even if you don't mean to kick him to the curb, even if you just say, you know, I can't handle it anymore, that's the that could be the last straw. That could be the time where they just needed a little pull. So, you never know when they're at rock bottom bottom and they're going to bounce or if they still need a you know what I mean? And >> yeah, >> it's this field where it's just like, >> no, no, by the way, we we don't necessarily know what you mean. This is why you are the ambassador for these kinds of things because you've had these experiences. You've been through these traumatic events. You know, these circles and this is a reoccurring theme. This is not going to stop in today's generation or the next generation. There's always going to be a massive need for people like you who understand it like Sonni Pearlman who understand it and can address it and can deal with it in an appropriate manner unlike people that are inexperienced that deal with it the wrong way and make things worse. They only aggravate things which is again going back to what I said originally. Thank God. And I'm doing it on your on your here, but still, thank God you went through these experiences. Every last one because each one of those things taught you something. You're more empathetic to it. You're less judgmental because of it. And people could connect to you now because of it. So, I I I'm feel blessed that I didn't have to endure that. And I'm not in the position today to, you know, help someone in need in this situation. But you are. And there are people like you that are not shying away and saying, "Look, I recovered and I'm I'm good now." You're actually connecting with others and helping others. And I think that's so commendable. I think that's that's so amazing. But I do want to ask, Michael, I think what you were touching on is like, could we hone in on one example of one particular person that comes to mind for you? a story specifically that >> Yeah, I I could give you a couple, but but one main one that always comes to mind is I had a friend who we were at a party and we were all getting messed up, but he just took it one step further and he was overdosing and obviously we were all not experienced, but we knew Good Samaritan law, you can't get in trouble. So, we were calling the cops, and I'll never forget this. He was pretty much at the verge of full-on overdose or not. And he didn't want us to call the cops, not because of anything else other than the fact that his parents would then find out and he would get in trouble. So, he was more afraid of his parents than he was of potentially dying >> or or whatever else the other option was, but it wasn't good. And that to me that's the wildest thing. >> Yeah. >> Like like is that the home that is gonna create safety and have kids come back to? I don't think so. >> Yeah. What a stark contrast to what you're experiencing. >> Correct. >> I think this pretty much sums it up. >> The two opposite sides of it and then the ramifications of it. I imagine that this person today >> actually funny this kid, believe it or not, actually got me really angry because his brother sang him down to Koopo. Um he's actually I don't want to say his name but he's from learning at Frisk with a bunch of kids I would never have thought in a million like of all the people like he's number one of it just doesn't make sense. Um, so I guess that that defeats my theory, but the reality is like I remember I was fuming at his ka. I was like, "How dare I mean you don't want me singing you down the but I was like he stayed at my house all the time because he wasn't allowed at home." And my family, we took him in uh till till uh he slept with like a garden blade under his pillow. And one day my mom came in and there was just like a massive blade on the floor and she was like I can't do it anymore. >> But um >> wow >> we let him in our home. He wasn't allowed in his home and then now he's from again >> right >> and you guys want to sing him down the I remember I was so angry. I was like come on guys. Now you accept him, >> right? >> I even said something to them. I remember not >> I can I can relate to where you're coming from. Yeah. >> Just like I don't think it's fair. I don't think you get to I think you should either be there the whole time or not there at all. You don't get to be there for the success. I mean, >> the family's family, but >> could we get to the part where things get really bad? Like the lowest of the low? Like what what when what was the moment you felt like >> there's so many picks? >> This is sort of the rock bottom. Like take me there. Take me to that time. >> There's so many options. Um I I would say like my real rock bottom is let's get into this is the real nitty-gritty. So, I go to Israel. At a certain point, I quit the whole selling drugs and all this other stuff. I decide I'm going to try and get more on the straight and narrow. I have some money saved up. I'm um ready to just use drugs nicely. And my rebby, I'll just take it quickly, but my rebby um takes us on all expenses paid trip to Israel for 30 days. Um, we end up in yeshiva. I go to yeshiva for three years. At a certain point, I meet my wife in Israel. Uh, I am a fully blown alcoholic. Absolutely nuts. I I just constant >> drinking every day. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Literally >> multiple times a day. >> Maybe sometimes. Um, I'm in yeshiva that didn't allow smoking weed. Obviously, that didn't affect me or bother me. I did what I did anyways. And um I'm just fully blown. And and by the way, interestingly enough, if you had asked me then, there was absolutely zero chance I was an addict or an alcoholic. Never even crossed my mind while it was happening. >> You were in denial. >> Not even denial. I didn't even It wasn't even a concept. Very interesting. Like there wasn't a thought, not even once. >> I remember I went one time to an AA meeting to support a friend who had just got back from rehab. I was like, "What a bunch of weirdos." You know what I mean? greatest program ever. But what a bunch of weirdos. That's what I thought. I was like, I don't need this. Who's this for? >> Right. >> This is so interesting to me, by the way, because like you're you're at 16, that age, you're dealing and then suddenly you go to Israel. >> Yeah. >> What made you go to Israel? Just can you take a for a second? >> Okay. >> You got a free paid vacation. >> I almost didn't go. >> Someone picked up on the pieces and and I was in school. Amazing school. It was lema then called Aaskayam. Wasn't really a school. It was keep kids off the street who didn't have anything type program type. Correct. >> Like um get your GED and we'll go to Deep Creek for a week type. >> Rabbi Connely gem of a human. I call him G Money. Um he was my rebby. Still is to this day. I talk to him all the time. And he knew that I wasn't doing good in that regard. He knew all the guys weren't doing good. And he figured if he takes us on a trip to Israel, these are all my best friends in the world at this point. We all did drugs together. We all hung out together. This is what we did. We just every Friday night we would go to his house for a meal. Absolutely wild all the time. I would bring my water bottle that was full of vodka. And the rabbits to this day always anytime I'm drinking water at their house, she's always like, "Oh, it's water." And um we he he understood that like something needed to change for all of us. So he came up with this idea that we're going to go on a third zero nothing down nothing any there was no commitment just we're going to go 30 days we're going to travel Israel we're going to do all these fun trips go down to Canerit white water rafting anything and everything in Israel for 30 days with all your best friends what could be better I said no there was there well there was one condition we couldn't bring our phones no smartphones it was to connect the trip so no smartphone that didn't bother What bothered me was I was going to leave this world behind at this point. I was still making my money. I was still doing all this drugs. I was like, where am I? Again, no chance I'm an addict, but how am I going to get high and drunk in Israel? Uh, drunk turned out not to be a problem. But I was like, no. I said no. And I was steadfast about it for like a few weeks. And finally, like everybody in my life was like, "You are out of your mind. Just go. Like, you're a 30-day vacation with all your best friends. It's a dream." So, I went and we never had return tickets. We had one-way tickets and we had interviews at all the schools that were applicable for us. And I ended up having I was like, "Absolutely not." Finally, by the end of the month, I was like, "Okay, whatever. I'll check them out. And I had a choice between one school, which didn't learn at all. There was no drug screening and there was no curfew. That was like my go-to choice, of course. Then there was TJ, which had drug screening, but they learned Kimara. And I remember I'll go back to that other place. I was like, my parents, I kept asking them which would you rather me go to? But I knew that there was no drug screening, just party or the other place which was like there was Gamarra. And I remember I picked that one partly because my parents, partly because I got into like a big Gamarra argument with the Russa when uh I had the interview. I was like I'm going to show him and uh I ended up there. >> And Israel of course has very lenient legal laws when it comes to alcohol. like pretty much anybody can drink >> and it's such a big challenge for boys and girls who are going to Israel alone >> 100% >> and um you know you went through that so you had access to alcohol and you're not an alcoholic right in your head. >> No, not at all. Even though I legitimately drink >> it's a miracle I don't have liver problems. I legitimately drink every single night. Five to six nights a week. >> Uh really probably six to seven nights a week. >> So you're going through the process. I like Ushi what he was asking me for. So, you know, you're you're heading in this direction. So, take us to that point where you reach >> I I was trying to I know it's round about, but I meet my wife, I get married, and that's when the >> Oh, >> yeah. That's when it really gets deep. >> I don't understand. >> That's what I was saying. >> So, during this time, you uh you're doing all this stuff. You're in Israel now. You're hanging out. You're back in Yeshiva, whatever the Shiva is. It's not much learning going on, but you're still partying. And you're now starting to date this girl. Yeah. At the same time stop in Israel. >> You met her in Israel. How old are you at this point? >> 19. >> You're 19. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay. And uh very soon you get married. >> No, I meet her. We date for a couple years on and off like if she's in Israel or not. Um but we always stayed in touch. Um I tried out a little bit. I did a little bit. Um and then at a certain point, like four years into um I was done. I was ready to go home and marry this girl. I knew she was going to be my wife. She knew I was going to be her husband. I was like, "What are we doing here anymore?" >> And she's back in the States now. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, I uh I actually got myself kicked out of Yeshiva after four years. Um I just didn't care anymore. I was just like usually I would try to hide the drug use and then I just stopped caring because I was like going home anyways. Anyhow, I by the way, I want you to know me and my wife had an agreement that once I once we get married, I'm gonna stop using drugs. >> So, she knows about your history. She knows about >> 100% >> everything that you're doing. >> Correct. >> Uh but still, you >> do it together to a certain extent. Saying uh we were drinking for sure, smoking a little bit, >> but she didn't like the excessive amount of drinking and smoking and all that. She's actually in the program, too. So, um, she's actually works with addicts and alcoholics now. She helps in a in a program. She's very active in the community to try and help and give back. So, she's a great woman. >> Okay. >> Um, and but we had an agreement. She started much later in life, like just drinking a little bit. Um, and so we said once we get married, that's it. >> Clean slate. Start. >> Clean slate. And in my head, by the way, there was no question. And I was like, I'm just going to stop. >> Yeah. >> I'm married now, >> right? >> Done. >> Uhhuh. >> We get married. First like four days, like life was good, but there was something just nagging me. I didn't have any drugs. I didn't have any alcohol. Like something was just like constantly bothering me. And I was like, I'm happy. I'm with the woman of my dreams. Like everything's great. What's bothering me? And I didn't know what it was. And then Corona hit. I got married February 27th, 2020. The world was shut down two weeks later. I go to my wife and I'm like just while the pandemic is going we should be able to use once the world starts again. >> Yeah. >> Then and like >> always find a justification of course. >> Correct. >> And you're living where? Right now you got married. So you're living in my right now both of you. Yeah. >> And you're working she's working. >> I wasn't working at the time time but then I started working pretty soon after at a suit company. Yeah. >> Okay. >> And um I would say fast forward about a year. I'm obviously off the rails again using and that's when I probably hit that and the following time is when I hit rock bottom. So, >> were you hiding this from your wife at the time? >> That's when it became the real issue. That was my like first rock bottom. What happened was is I would just smoke weed and drink. We'd smoke a lot and drink a lot, but that was it. And then on weekends or like birthdays or pretty much any occasion that I could justify, I would find some hard drugs to use and call it an event, you know, whatever it may be. But there were plenty of options. And certain point I started getting a little extra options and a little bit of extra on the side. And then so we would use together, we go to sleep, call it a day, and all of a sudden I have an extra baggie or two for myself. >> Mh. and under the table almost. And that went into every day on the side to all the time. And then one day I remember I at this point I'm doing really well financially in my head. Life's great. I don't have a problem. Everything's good. >> So you're managing to function right now still >> while this is all escalating. You're starting to do even more of a variety of different things. >> Correct. And you're doing things on top of whatever you're doing with your wife on your own time as well. Like you're sneaking away any chance you can get >> and still you're managing to keep your life together. >> I I had a good job. I was I was making decent money and >> working in the suit place in the suit store. >> Would you be considered a functioning addict at this point? >> I I would think so. I don't see why not. >> Yeah. >> Um but the reality was I was absolute mess. Like I couldn't even get through forget a full day. I couldn't get through a few hours. >> Yeah. And so like at a certain point it's like I'm using at work and then I'm like taking off work. I remember like it hit me. I need to go get help when she came home one day from work and I was lying in bed. Hi as a kite. And she came like she before she came to the room I went to go give her a hug and I couldn't stand. And I remember like she came into the room and I just sat on the bed and I started crying and I was like this is this is what I've been doing. I need help. That was like the first realization. Like that was my first rock bottom but also the first realization where it was like okay there's >> it's gotten out of control. Yeah. >> This is beyond >> real >> beyond me right now. >> And really really just to take you into the mindset I really thought I was normal. Like as crazy as it sounds, in my head, I was so far gone and I was so far embedded in this lifestyle that if you had asked me if I had a drug problem, I genuinely would have passed a polygraph and said no. >> Wow. >> Till that point, literally, it's just so crazy. But it also maybe will help give perspective to some people like I wasn't like writing in a drawing board like how I can mess up my life on a day-to-day basis. I really just this is what I needed to get through my day. This made sense and this is what I'm going to do. And like I have a job. I have a wife. Life's fine. >> Well, >> what's wrong? >> And you clearly remember that night you're talking about it as if you're still standing there. >> Oh, yeah. >> And what happened right after that? Right after you made that admission and you broke down and I'm assuming your wife at that moment was being very supportive and you know she's going to help you get through it. Like what does the next morning look like? Next, that day I went to Sonnie and I said, "Sonnie, I need help." And he's >> And you knew Sonnie from before? >> I knew Sonnie from the suit store. I remember I had pulled him and told him how much of a problem I didn't have. >> And he told me when I came to see him again, he said, "I've been waiting for you to come since you told me how you didn't have a problem." >> Right. >> And um we sat down and he talked and I remember he told me something strong. He's like, "I'm not going to see you as a therapist if whatever I can tell you isn't going to be as helpful as going to an AA meeting." And that was like the start of a long journey to trying to get sober. And that looked like me trying, diving in, two months, messing up, diving in, messing up, diving in, messing up. And then the real rock bottom was a six-month period about two years after I started this journey of sobriety because it wasn't clean. >> It wasn't like okay go to AA this I'm a kid who's has all this baggage >> right >> it's not an overnight no >> process and you were coming in and out you were having ups and downs. Yeah. I I >> And your wife through this time, is she staying by your side? >> So supportive. >> So supportive. Like she never once somewhat like threatened that she's going to leave, she's going to walk out. She was with you the entire way. >> She was with me the entire way. I'm saying there were certain points where at the end, which we'll get to, where it was like there's I don't know how she did it. That's the truth. >> She was tested. She was definitely tested. So like the problem with what happened was is that once you get AA involved and this trying to get sober now along with the drugs besides it just being using it's like this new guilt factor where I know I'm doing something wrong. >> So it brings add shame to it. >> Oh the guilt. >> Yeah. >> Oh the guilt. >> Everything. >> It's just as bad as the drugs. >> Yeah. They always say the saying in AA. It's like nothing like uh a belly full of alcohol and a head full of AA. >> Wow. >> Like it's because it's like you know you're messing up. You know you're going to have to tell everybody disappointment and >> yeah the clapping when you have two months and everybody's so proud of you. Like you came in for so long you couldn't get sober. Then everybody's so happy for you and then you got to go say I have one day again and it's brutal. And um at a certain point I just I lost it all and it was time for I had some interventions like some people who were close to me said you know time for you to go to rehab and this was like the beginning of the rock bottom. You would think it's start up. Um I'm sorry. Does your family know while this is these moments we're talking about these this year or two. Does your family know what's going on? Are they involved? Your parents, your siblings? Um, or are you like keeping things under the wraps and they're on a need to know basis? >> Some and some. Some and some. I don't think they ever knew how bad it got. >> The extent. They didn't know the extent. >> I don't think so. >> It's with your wife. That's pretty much just their >> Not not yet. They didn't. At a certain point, they they knew how bad it got. Um, because I I I went to rehab. Yeah. I'm keeping it with my wife at this point, but I went to rehab then. And so then everybody's supportive. Donniey's finally getting his life in check. They had seen me like sober. I'm not sober. I'm sober. I'm not sober. >> Right. >> So, I go to rehab. I take the step. And I didn't just go. I went to a month in Miami in Florida and then three months in Israel. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> So, you went to do like a detox first? >> No, a detox, then a rehab, and then a three-month program. >> I went all out. >> And you didn't go with your wife. She stayed She stayed behind. >> So, she went to Israel because her family was living in Israel at the time. And um then I went to the other rehab in Israel. >> Wow. >> So we were around each other and we we saw each other all the time. Then at a certain point I was going to the classes but living in an apartment with my wife in Israel. >> And this is recent. This is like you're like two three years ago, right? >> Yeah. This is like three years ago. Yeah. >> This is like 2022ish 2023. >> Correct. >> And this is again this is a woman who's sticking by her husband just driving her crazy. You know what I mean? so much really really an amazing strong powerful woman and I'm so thankful. >> I would love to meet your wife by the way. She sounds incredible. I mean because uh I'm just thinking that you know I'm not I always say it on the podcast I probably say way too many times it's getting uncomfortable but I have I have a lot of imperfections. Like I don't consider myself to be a great person. I'm a little shallow with certain things. You know I could be self-centered a lot of times you know and I try by the way I try to improve myself. like I try to always be better tomorrow than him the next. But I I hear people like you like on that chair, Michael, so many people sit there and like just what they're giving to the world and like you know things that they've been through and how they've overcome and just shows uh how powerful a human being could be like just if they want something how capable they really are. I'm like I know there's a happy ending to all of this. We haven't gotten there yet. We're going to get there hopefully. >> Very close. We were very close, but I'm living in the moment with you as these things are unfolding and as your life is in shambles and it's just like it's it's it's crazy. It is crazy. And and also >> I'm mesmerized. I'm just mesmerized by >> I'm a married man living in a different country in rehab. I gave up this job that to me was awesome. Like I liked what I did. I was making I was getting paid decently. like I was I was happy and so you put you we stuck me in rehab. I got better but I was never done with drugs like at this point this first rehab stint which gives you a sneak peek that there's another one. Um I almost rehab was stealing the drugs from me. You're taking the thing that I love the most in the world more than anything else and you're taking it away from me and you're providing me with and you're taking this job away that I liked that provided me with so much and you're giving me back sobriety something that I didn't want that I'm doing because everybody told me I needed to and now you brought me back into the world four months later I'm back and I don't have a job. I don't have my drugs and what do I have? It took me five days. Four months and then five days later I was high again. And I remember the shame and guilt and misery that it came with the lying because now at this point like I can't tell my wife, are you kidding me? She uprooted. We uprooted everything. I just I knew it was going to break her. >> She's sacrificing so much. >> Everything. And and why did I do it? It didn't make sense. like I I just still don't know like what did I do and it was very clear I didn't really dive into the program. I didn't really have the correct support when I came back and I really I rushed it a little bit. >> You have 10 15 years of straight using and all of a sudden you just throw me back >> four months and boom just get back and >> you fell off the wagon. >> Fell off the wagon right away and that was like you want to know my absolute rock bottom that moment. >> Oh yeah. Because >> now you feel hopeless. Now you feel like maybe I'm beyond help. >> I also don't have the job, this big support that I was like, I'm still functional. >> Right >> now I'm not functional. I'm at home all day. I have a wife. I have no income whatsoever. And I'm hiding my drug use, which absolutely terrible at it. I am the least slick drug user of all time. legitimately like I remember I used to try and hide from my parents like kind of like go into their room be like you guys look tired you should go to sleep but I'm not doing drugs tonight and u that was my way of telling them that I wasn't doing drugs and um so inevitably I get caught and now my wife knows >> and she gave up everything for nothing and I have no plan I have no anything and I bought she tells me that if I pick up I have one last pickup up and after that I'm done. If I pick up again, she she can't do it anymore. Which should have been months earlier if she was anybody else. And um me being brilliant said, "Okay." And I picked up a ridiculous amount. And the guy was a piece of work and he sold me a bunch of bad drugs. And that was rock bottom because he sold me something instead of something else. And I was off the walls. I had no idea what was flying by the time they got me into rehab like like I I went to my parents for Roshashana that Roshashana just bear mind after I'd done four months in rehab come back I'm officially sober I pull up to the house for the for Yum Kipper like the pre Yum Kipper meal and I wasn't like I thought I was hiding it. I thought they wouldn't know. I was off the wall. I they they had they were so sad. It was it was such a mess. So that's they knew it was a problem. They were trying to get involved, get me back into rehab, and it was just it was really messy. But the one like big silver lining out of this rock bottom was that I was miserable. It was so bad. Like I it wasn't fun anymore. All of a sudden, this thing that I cherished that was everything that was everything. I finally was able to see it for the monster it was. And I remember I walked into this last rehab September 29th, 2023. And they told me I was one of like top this is granted this is I did the fancy rehabs. This is like a hole in the wall in Philadelphia. Trash of the trash and me. And um which I at that point I guess I was the trash of the trash. And um they I remember they they did my intake and they were just like you are so crazy. And I'm like, you guys are telling me I'm so great. Like, how bad is it? You know, but it was terrible. And for the first time ever, I wasn't losing drugs. I was getting my life back. And I was, it was different. It wasn't, you weren't taking it away from me. You were for so long. It was taking away the drugs for me. And finally, it was giving me sobriety. And that was like that was all I needed. And my big like shining moment was two days later I finally like was sobering up and I wasn't sure if I was going to get my brain back. I remember I was so afraid. I was like I'm a decently intelligent human, you know, and it was something I was always proud of. I'm able to talk to people, connect, have clever, fun conversations, you know, some wit. And I just like I I was a zombie. I had no idea what was going on. I was so slow. And I remember I got into the shower with all my clothes on and got on my knees and I said, "God, if you give me I was crying and I was like, "God, if you give me my brain back, if you make me able to think again and able to be a regular normal human, swear I'll never use again." And I get my word. That was like I remember that moment like it was yesterday. I was like just God listened and he provided because it doesn't make sense. >> Wow. I'm feeling like emotional again. >> I I feel like I'm watching a movie right now. I really do. I feel like I'm watching a movie and I can't imagine um you know you were saying like uh feeling miserable like dare I say maybe even suicidal like at a time like that your whole life is pretty much in shambles uh just destroyed and you just let down the one person who's just been there for you through thick and thin through everything and even that person is now starting to give up on you. I mean that realization must have hit you like a ton of bricks and you've been to rehab before. You've been through the process before and now you're now you're going back like I asked you before like where was your rock bottom, you know, and you're building up to this. This is this is literally the rock bottom. I don't know where you go below where you were. >> You want to know where below is? September 29th, 2023. I will go to rehab. My wife goes to Israel. I'm in rehabber October 7th. My wife's in Israel because of me. And I have no idea what's flying. I just know there's a massive war and I'm stuck in rehab. And like that was just like just the kicker to really just sell everything like get better. Stop doing this. >> Yeah. >> All right. You you you got to lift us up over here because I know there's a lot of good things coming. I know there's a lot and we got to get there because >> I even you know I feel your pain. I feel it like you know it's I'm there right I'm in the dump with him. >> This is part of By the way could happen to any of us. what he went through. Michael could happen to any of us and you know I I was going to say to you like I was reminding myself I made a note for myself towards the end of the podcast but I feel like I just want to do it now before you get to the to the other side of the hill. I think this is the perfect time to do it is I want you to talk to to the camera to to the viewers to people that are listening because there's going to be 17 18 19 year old kids 25year-old young adults that are married that are experiencing something like this and they're telling themselves it's okay. I still have control over it. I still have a handle over it. And they're doing whatever it is. They're drinking a little bit, they're smoking a little bit, they're just dabbling in a little bit of drugs, you know, on a certain occasion or whatever. It always starts like that, right? That's how it starts. >> And then it goes to the next level and then you you you escalate a little bit and then before you know it, >> you could end up down this treacherous path. It could happen to any of us. We're all susceptible to it. We're humans by design have these bad tendencies that we have to break and if we're not careful, we can get caught up in it real real quick. What? Talk to us for a moment of like you never saw this coming. You never thought it would get here. Like it really 10 years later. >> I didn't have a problem. >> You never had a problem until when you realized you really really did and that was 10 years later. >> That was 10 years later. And it's just it's a scary thought that anybody can just get sneer it up in in in this in this moment and then before you know it it gets away. Not everybody's fortunate enough to have a a story to tell afterwards. >> Unfortunately, the reality and statistics say most people aren't. That's that's the truth. Like most people don't when you get to certain points do you don't get sober. Like the rehab rates of sobriety are terrible. Like just don't get there. You don't have to. But what's your question? like what what what should I say to the people like what would I say to somebody who's in my shoes or something like that. >> I think if I can break it down a second it's not only 20 year olds and teenagers unfortunately it's people who are 30 40 50 and older and I think that you know what I was thinking about when Oshi was saying that is >> for that person who's not recognizing um his challenges but he has a moment while he's listening to this and thinking like you know what maybe I do have a challenge I guess that's the question like what how do you connect to that person? Well, I mean, I think for the biggest it's really it's really a tough question because I think each person has to decide for themselves because at the end of the day when I had the intervention and I wasn't ready, I wasn't going to stop. It was about me. But I guess what I would really and what I've seen from people uh coming into the rooms new and helping them u when I say the rooms like AA or recovery or whatever else it may be um is just seeing like what what's it taking from you and if you really don't have a problem why don't you try stopping or controlling it for a little bit and see what happens. If you see that you can't then all of a sudden the drugs are ruling and not you. It's your life and it's really a question of if you want to rule your life or you want a substance to rule your life and >> well said man. >> Yeah, very well said. I think I think one phrase I heard there was what's it taking from you? >> Right. >> What are you missing out on? What is what are you sacrificing in lie of doing all these things that you're doing? >> Correct. For so long I couldn't do anything without being high. It was like going jet skiing in B in the Canadian Rockies. beautiful place in the world and I was miserable because I didn't have >> drugs or alcohol and that's crazy. Yeah, that's not something that's giving me something that's taking. It's taking what's it taking from you. >> All right, we're ready. We're ready for the the highlight. Let's go. Let's go. You know, first moment when you start realizing, I got this. You know what this is? Things are looking up. Take us there. I so I came back and I finally had the gift of desperation which is something that I needed like all of a sudden all these things are just such blessings you know my wife still being with me huge blessing nothing's taken for granted anymore my life my brain everything is just like it's flipped and I had less than I ever had in my life in every sense you know like I felt like my relationship was in a really tough spot It obviously was um I don't have a job. I'm unemployed. I don't have a house because I gave up the you know I have nothing and I've never felt more real and in control and more of a connection with God because all of a sudden I don't have anything. So I turned to God consistently. I remember I was doing better. I'm in a place with I'm the only Jew except like the people who worked there or owned it and I'm dinging. I'm putting on to fillain with a pastor in the bed next to me and I'm putting on filling. All of a sudden, >> you're disconnection and you're happier. >> I'm happy with nothing. >> Yeah. >> And that's when it like really hit home and it started a new trend. >> You're high on life. >> Yes, sir. >> You're high on life. >> Michael didn't like that. >> No, I loved it. I'm just I can't get over the the the line that you said, the gift of desperation. I've never heard that before. It's >> Yeah. >> I'm like absorbing what you're saying. That's that that you're looking at it as a gift, >> right? And it's it was so changing because I was finally able to like people don't realize like for so so many people it's like a cliche or like people say like, "Oh, thank God for my health." Or like no, like I was very close to losing my mind and losing my life, I'm sure. And all of a sudden, the things that people don't realize they should be grateful for, I'm suddenly so grateful for. Like before, forget about a car. I needed to have a BMW. Then I'd be happy. And it's like now I just I just want a bed to live in and a brain that works and a connection with somebody or something or a higher power, which is God I call Hashem. That that's all I need. >> Yeah. >> And obviously I want to get back to there. I'm not fully there anymore because it's, you know, life's happened. >> So, what did you do? >> So, actually, I I came back to my plan. I found a random job that didn't work out and then it was a sad circumstance. Like, my wife's brother got pretty sick. He's he was sick, but we went into Israel and we were staying in Israel for a while. And while I'm there, I decided I'm going to try my hand at stock trading. That went absolutely terribly. But while I was there, um, I found out that this I'm in the suit industry and these people I had worked with in Borcelino were starting a suit company and I was like I called up I got frantic about it and I said, "Let's get involved. Let's >> By the way, what took them so long? I mean, Borcelino's been in the fashion business before anyone. It's so simple. >> It's unbelievable. Like >> God set me up in an absolutely beautiful way where I was finally in a position where I could make this the next step. Like it makes no sense how everything happened. >> Borina was waiting for this, >> but like it almost like happened at the absolute perfect time. >> They're waiting for you to get sober. >> Yeah. And that that's how I look at it. Like at that point, that's for sure how I looked at it. I was like, "God, God, so up." So, I got in contact with them and finally like my life's starting to take shape. I'm going to live in Muny. I'm going to open this store. This is what I do. This is what I love to do. This is a new break, new opportunity. And my I have all this this like sober network, the sober community. And I had like several months to really work on my relationship with God, with my wife in Israel. What could be better? I have a plan going forward. And then I hit the ground running and we opened the store in my uh December 202. Yeah, December 2020. >> About a year and a half ago. >> You had a Yeah. So, I was just going to ask you who who's Borcelino. You called Borelino. What does that mean? >> Borcelino is like the company. So, >> I believe they bought the rights for selling the hats in America in the store. >> Okay. >> And so, >> didn't they stop for a little bit or something? Something happened with Porcelino? >> Honestly, it was before me. Okay. >> All this stuff was before me. But it's all the same people. Yeah. And >> these are these are people in the community of uh >> Yeah. >> that they have the rights for Borcelino and Correct. Like it's it's all a part of our company and then it's me and a few other people really started Atika. Well, they started ATA before me, but I got >> I jumped in and now it's really Thank God guys. Use the code DBN will get you 10% off. But um >> is there is it one store at Tikica? >> No, we got four stores. >> Four stores where? >> Brooklyn, Avenue J, Crown Heights, Lakewood, and Muny. Munie is the best one obviously. >> And they're all affiliated. They're all >> all part of the same network. >> You're involved with all of them? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> It's amazing. >> And um it's it's a blessing because a like I really use it as a really nice um it's a really nice thing for myself. I love what I do. I love like honestly like people feeling good, talking to people, hanging out. Got to meet Michael randomly right before Shvuis like these kind of things. Like that's what I live for. I have a great time. >> This is your passion. Good quality. It happens to be you have good quality product >> and I can sell a good thing at a fair price to great people. And so I feel like I'm helping. I'm giving back. And then on top of that, >> I will give any kid if you're struggling, you got to work hard, but if you're struggling, I will give them a chance. And then they get this like environment where we have all these from Jewish people who are doing good and I'll give you a chance. And it's like that's what someone gave me at one point. It was different. It wasn't like there wasn't a sober aspect, but like I tell all my guys like if there's somebody who's in recovery who's working for me, if you want to go hit a meeting, go for it. You know what I mean? And like it's I almost feel like it's Hashem's way of like, you know, >> how long has it been for you that you're in recovery now? >> Drug. >> Yeah. >> Almost three years. Just coming up on three years. I just passed a thousand days. I think I have a thousand days. >> A thousand days. >> Yeah. >> Wow. Nothing. No alcohol. Even even uh >> nothing >> like kidish. Not even nothing. Zero. You have to stay away completely. >> No drugs. >> Is it has it become harder? Is it become easier? Is it like some moments it's hard? for some moment. >> I don't even think about it anymore. >> You don't think about it? >> No. I'll go. >> You could be in sh while everybody's drinking about kiddish and you could be hanging out there and it doesn't doesn't phase you. You don't even think about it. >> I don't even have to anymore. But like it's almost like this. What a what an absolute disaster that would be for me. Like I know if I pick up again that it's just off to the races again. To me it's like having a skull and crossbones on that bottle. Like that doesn't look appealing to me at all anymore. And it's possible to any person who's struggling out there. I strongly believe I don't strongly believe I know for a fact that you can get to the same point simply by doing some work on yourself, working on your character defects, whatever that is. You'll learn about it and just taking it one day at a time. Like I really I it sounds impossible. I know if you had told me several years ago that I wouldn't even think about drugs on a daily basis, I'd tell you you're crazy. >> But here you are. >> Yeah. Tremendous shout out. By the way, I have to mention, of course, we're talking about your parents and your wife and we said sonnie, but I I I need to say it again. He's he has a sober living process of integrating into the community. >> I went there and it's tell us about it, you know, beautiful. Really beautiful. Like like he always says, the opposite of addiction is connection and that's what it is. I'm still very involved with it. I go play volleyball by the house all the time. >> Great volleyball games. We need a few more people. So, if anybody's interested, >> I live right there, by the way. Come by. >> I'm like I'm on board court. So I'm like literally running in the corner. >> It's funny you ask that. I hate volleyball. >> Okay. >> My friends play volleyball. They're in a league. They play I'm I don't consider it a real sport. It's like the worst. I despise it. >> Okay. Well, you would >> I have a lot of fun. You're not invited anymore, Michael. You could come. >> Yeah. So, I'm the wrong guy. Don't invite me. You know, >> but but that's what it is. Like they have barbecues. They have uh events every Wednesday night where all the people current residents or old residents come by. I'm constantly there and it's so nice to see people a I'm able to see where I've come but b I'm seeing people pick up their lives and like I literally I'm not joking on Saturday night I called somebody who I was friends with back in the day years ago. we used to use together and he's in the house now and I called him up and I said, "Hey, do you want a job?" He I don't know if he I gave him a few days. I told him to call me back and I said, "Hey, I'll give you a job." >> You know, it's amazing to me that you're running such a large successful business. I mean, four stores is no small feat. I mean, that's a huge thing. >> Quality quality stuff. >> Quality products. Your stores are beautiful and uh very elegant. >> Very very nice. Very elegant. I want to talk about it for a minute, you know, because you went through so much in life and now you're a business owner, operator, and we're going to have to wrap up in a couple. Um, but I just want to ask you, what have you learned about running a business? Because right now you're running a B. Are you on your own? You have partners, people operating it with you, >> right? So, so what is it that you've learned and what are you doing differently about being an entrepreneur, business owner that all this has taught you or that you can pass on to other people who are looking to start a business and you know be successful in doing it? Um, okay. So, three things I learned honesty is the absolute number one policy. I learned in my life that every single time I lied it ended badly. So, honesty with customers, honesty with vendors, honesty with partners, everything. Like, um I had a deal recently where um I had to make a certain amount of shirts that I didn't have. And I was able to just tailor all the sleeves and they never would have known. I could have cut the sleeves, tailored it, nobody would have known, and I would have gotten a $25,000 deal going through. And um it was that or nothing. And I was thinking about just doing it and not saying anything. And I said like, I wouldn't like that. They would never have known. it wouldn't have made a difference, but it didn't matter. And I um told them I was like, I could tailor it for you. And they said they're not interested. And I said, "Okay, but but you know what? At least I was honest about it." And they ended up calling me back. I know it's like almost like all those stories, you know, he said, and nine months later there's a baby. But they called me back and they put in a bigger order and they said, "When it comes, it comes." And it was just like one of those moments where like usually it does end up burning you, you know, but it really dismissed that by the way that is a very nice story. Yeah, >> I mean that, you know, wasn't so easy to do and you did the right thing and it came back and you made double the amount. >> Honesty number one. Um, nothing's for granted is probably number two. So, just don't take anything for granted. Work hard. And number three, hustle. Nobody ever made money without working hard. You got to work hard. >> It's a lost art, unfortunately. Sometimes with the younger generation, >> look at me talking about younger generation. I'm like, how did I get here? Michael, how did I get >> that's another podcast, >> but it's unbelievable. But, you know, hustling is just it's an art form, but you're right. >> Gotta hustle it, man. >> Can I just say something as we're closing up over here? I >> I've been a lot a part of a lot of podcasts. >> I don't know. What did we say the number was? >> We're We're in the 90s. I met 90 people. >> Cool people, by the way. >> Lots of cool people. Special people, talented people, smart people, all kinds. All kinds. There's something about you. You're a breath of fresh air. This felt so real. This just felt so genuine. There was no beating around the bush. This was cutting right through. And you seem to me like you're just really unbburdened. You're free. Like everything is out there. Everything is out there. You've unloaded and you're better off for it. And a part of me is jealous of you. I didn't have your journey. I didn't have your experiences. But you came out on the other side. I don't know, man. Maybe those 20 years, those 15 years of struggles was all worth it because you're at a point today that you might be happier than the next person. And I think this is full circle here as to why did you go through that? First of all, for yourself. You're a better person today for it. Like Kelly Clarkson said, who doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Here you are. You're certainly stronger, but you're also just a light. You're shining a light onto other people that have, you know, that are going through similar things that you've been through. It's just amazing. I loved it. I really love this podcast and I appreciate Funny that you that line because that was like the line on my profile picture for years was what doesn't kill you messes you up. I would switch that >> to >> messes you up. >> Yeah, switch that. Yeah, it's true. Listen, at the end of the day, I I really feel like I have a more great at times. Obviously, it's a work in progress, but I do have a more grateful outlook on life because like at the end of the day, nothing's granted, you know. >> What's next for you before we wrap up? >> Um, well, I just had a baby up to me. She's adorable. Talia, which not named after anybody, but Joyous New Beginnings. >> Beautiful. >> That's what um >> Beautiful. What a nice name. my wife have been through a lot and um this is like the next step. I want to build a family um grow a business and you know >> so happy for you. I'm so so so happy. Michael, can we buy like eight shirts tomorrow or something? >> He already gave us eight shirts. We're good. >> No, no, we got them pro bono. I'm talking about really you should just know all kidding aside >> I walked into your store not knowing anything like one day you just pop up in evergreen in the in the mall over there >> and like Michael I was rushing before before I think it was Pesak >> and you know what it's like four days in a row three days in a row and there's like six seven different you know and you have to wear like a bunch of shirts like you change in the morning you change in the afternoon you change what it's crazy it's like I go through like 10 shirts just first days and I could use another good white shirt and I went to store, not knowing anything, and just like, "Oh, look at this place." I walked in and I I bought a shirt. I came back a couple of weeks later, I bought three more. >> Let's go. >> I bought three more because it's a practical, elegant shirt. It's solid. It fits well. The collar is firm, and it's just a go-to shirt. It's a great shirt. I I'm telling I have an add It may sound like I'm trying to like flatter you, but I never knew you till today. I just met you for the first time, >> and I never knew who owns Atika. Atika Adica Atika, I didn't really care. But I got to say, compliments to you. Really? >> Are you involved in the designing of these shirts and all that? >> Sometimes, but like the new shirt to Tokyo, that's just next level. The stretch shirt. I think you got one. >> Yeah. Yeah, I gott I also same thing. I got one. I came back for three. >> And uh it's amazing. Do you have any questions for us before we wrap up? >> I'm just curious how this started and like what was the overall theme? That's what I honestly like because I've seen some of the podcasts knowing that I was going to come on. I saw Jonathan Pard, I saw Sonnie. I'm like honestly it's none of your business. >> Yeah. >> Uh no, it started off as a marketing effort. We didn't know where we were going with it and it evolved and it's been very growth oriented and we're loving the discussions. >> Growth, man. Just growth. >> It's really just about growth and I appreciate that question. We always ask guests if they have anyone that they recommend to be on the podcast. So if you started a podcast tomorrow, who would you bring on? Well, I would bring my dad. >> That would be cool. >> My dad is great. Yeah, he he actually So, he switched. He's a computer programmer, I think. And now he's like part-time, I think, because he still has his other profession, but he became a therapist because of the work he did and he specializes in teens and families and addiction. >> Would you be okay coming on with him? >> 100%. Done some speeches with him. We've done some podcasts together. 100%. >> Wow. Okay. That would be fun to watch. Um, >> again, thank you to all our subscribers, all our comments. We're loving it. All of our super fans, by the way, we have a lot of super fans. I'm starting to call them out every once in a while. So, uh, this week I spoke a lot to Josh, Josh Parnes. You are a big super fan. Schmo Weintock, also another amazing super fan. And, uh, getting feedback from you guys and listening to all the, uh, creative, constructive feedback. And we're loving it all. Thank you to the Prime Source production team. really a fantastic job always editing the shorts and Stefan and team, we really appreciate it. And uh yeah, that's a wrap. >> That's a wrap. >> Wow. Amazing. >> Awesome. Thanks, guys.