Addicted To Love with Sony Perlman #addictionrecovery #healing #jewishpodcast #therapyworks

Validation addiction is the biggest addiction. What's validation? Validation is that you love me. I could get you to love me and be impressed with me, then I'd get my fix. That's the biggest addiction. None of your business, Ushi. None of your business, Michael. It's the None of Your Business Podcast hosted by Michael and Ushi. Welcome back, everybody, to the None of Your Business Podcast. We are looking forward to this amazing upcoming episode with none other than Sunny Perlman. Sunny, you don't need an introduction to many people, but unfortunately, Ushi here doesn't know you. So, we're going to start off with an introduction, but before I do, please don't forget to like, subscribe, comment, and help us with our algorithms and get our message out there of growth both personally and professionally. We're loving what we're doing, and we hope you're enjoying it, too. We love your feedback, too, so please keep it coming. Uh Ushi, what do you know about addictions? Well, first of all, before addictions, I have heard of Sunny Perlman before. Oh. Okay, so I heard his name. You don't know him, is it? I have never met him before, so this is the first time I meet you, him. And I'm excited to get to know him cuz I've heard good things. And what do I know about addictions? I think we all know something about addictions. I think every person can resonate at some extent with an addiction. Everybody has some type of addiction. I got my addictions, some good, some bad, mostly bad. I don't think it's ever good to be addicted to anything, right? Even a good thing. Too much of a good thing is never good. So, addictions probably handicaps a lot of people. It probably, I imagine, ruins people's lives when they can't get away from something that they should not be doing. So, it becomes very difficult, but I understand it. There's a lot of help out there, and there's always a lot of support. And this is what I want to learn about. I want to learn about what Sunny does and, you know, who he comes across and what his model is when he comes across it. Like, how do you tackle it? How do you How do you really remedy somebody that's going through any addiction? Just so you know, before we begin, I'm going to say it. I'm going to own up to it. I think I am very susceptible to addiction more than a lot of people because I'm impulsive. And I just, you know, I get I'm very passionate, right? So, I get into something and I I just go all the way, full throttle, and I find myself like not being able to stop. It's very hard for me to stop. So, I think that I'm a candidate for addiction, and I think a lot of people are like that, too, everybody to their own to their own levels, but it's something that we have to be open about. We have to be honest about, otherwise it's going to become worse. It's going to escalate. So, this is a great topic. I think a lot of people are going to really take something away from this. I know I'm looking forward to it. Uh I'm going to say just that from my personal experience, from a professional standpoint, um you know, a lot of people have told me in the past, "Hey, Michael, you know, you're the 411 for 911." Which would mean in our community that if someone needs emergency help, like something's happening, like I know the head of RCCS. I know the head of, you know, Biker Cholem. I know the head of certain organizations. If you need to get a hold of them, you know, you can contact me, and I know exactly who to go to. So, I I I pride myself in knowing who to go to for what immediately. Exactly. When it comes to uh teenage or adult addictions, the first and last person that I go to is Sunny Perlman. And um I'm going to tell you a little bit about my experience with it, but first I'm going to tell you, Sunny, welcome to the program. Thank you. Very excited to be here. It's good to have you here, and um I I just first want to say I met Sunny when For those of you that haven't listened till now, I was in Israel from the age of 14 till around 20. So, I spent most of my high school years in Israel, on the streets of Israel, and being on the streets of Israel 14, I was, you know, hanging out in Ben Yehuda like a good 14-year-old does, and um I was part of the the Ner Yakov um faction. Okay, so for those of you that didn't grow up during that time, Ner Yakov and Neve, the two most popular schools in Jerusalem at the time for kids I guess we'll call it troubled. I don't know. Uh Guys who need more attention, right? Is that a good way to call it? Well, we used to say the difference between Ner Yakov and Neve is Ner Yakov guys were just too scared to tell their parents they want to go to Neve. Okay, I'll I'll take that in the chin. And I will tell you, though, that the Neve guys were scary mofos. Yeah. They were scary. I'm talking about like you had guys from California who were like coming from a family of Geirim, like, you know, or Bal Tshuvas, and like big guys and guys that are used to like having guns in their closets and, you know, walking around with brass knuckles. And there was a famous thing in back in the day when we were I was 14, I think you were you're a year or two older than me, right? You were like I think we're exactly the same age. Okay. So, we were both hanging out high school years in Israel, and um I'll never forget there was a fight in Ben Yehuda, and Sunny, you remember this because every night there was a fight, and the fight mostly was between Ner Yakov and Neve. And you would scream, "HIP HIP NEVE!" And then Neve all the Neve boys would come down, and they would fight, and there I met Sunny. I think that was the first time I ever met you. In a fight? During a fight. We didn't get arrested, but our friends sure did. And uh and then we and we first met, and you ended up marrying a cousin of mine. You ended up being a neighbor of ours. You ended up being on the board of directors of a girls uh teens program in Rockland County that we started with Alex Chertok and Bella, his wife. Amazing people. It's uh the first ever and only uh drop-in center for girls in Rockland County. You knew this, Ushi? You know You know about this. The volleyball tournament that we do every year for it. It's amazing. So, um that's my background of Sunny, but we more importantly, on a I would say average monthly basis, I get a call from a parent or an adult that's telling me I'm dealing with an emergency addiction issue. I don't know what to do. I I need help. And I say to them, "Well, do you need to call 911, or do you have time to deal with this, you know, normally?" And you know who taught me how to say that? Sunny. He taught me how to say that. Do you need to call 911? Cuz if you need to call 911, call 911. Nothing has to happen this minute. Take it easy, right? Well, the line is, there is no crisis, and for everything else, call 911. That's We don't deal with this crisis. Cuz if you deal with something as crisis, you're going to make a million mistakes. But there are sometimes an emergency where you have to call 911. So, if you're not calling 911, if you want to talk to me, we're not dealing with like it's a crisis. That's the same. It's amazing. And I I went on I was a teenager, and I was a mentor at the age of 20 when I came back to Brooklyn, and I decided to spend some time to give back to the community, and I became a mentor in a place called Our Place. And Our Place in Brooklyn is the number one, the founding It's like the founding fathers of teens at risk or, you know, the challenges we have with the youth. Um and uh lo and behold, Sunny was running the place at such a young age. He was running Our Place. I think you're one of the founders of Our Place together with the people. You know, we Yeah, you can you came in a little later, but without you, there'd be no Our Place. And um one of the stories that resonates with me, and I remember, and I have to end with this and take it to you, Sunny, is that um there was a time that I was walking to Our Place, and uh this is a place where in a basement there's 100 kids a night, and they all came for one thing and one thing only. The food. The food. Right? The food. They came for the food. And uh but these kids were coming with knives. These kids were coming with drugs. Some of them were drug dealers. One of them dealt drugs right outside of Avenue M and East 16th, wherever it was, on the corner. It was his turf. And I remember there was a challenge. And the challenge was, "What are we doing with this kid that's dealing?" And they orchestrated plan, and I you know, I hope we could share this. I'm not going to share any names, but the staff together orchestrated a plan that we're going to get a big dude that like, you know, who we know that works with us in security or something. Do you remember the story at all? I think I remember the story. And we're going to make believe that he's the turf owner of this corner, and he's going to take the kid and throw him up against the fence and say, "Stop dealing in my" and threaten his life. That's the way we did it in the '90s. I remember the guy's name who we called. His name was Angel. Get out of here. Tell us the story. I don't know the whole story. What's your version? There's a couple of them versions, but basically, it was a kid who was kind of going down that path, and we thought we could stop him. Like, he wasn't like fully in. And then um we got Angel to like terrify him and like basically say, "You got the best life in the world. Like, what are you doing?" Like, "And this is my spot. You can't use it." And uh that guy is a truck driver, you know. I don't know if it worked. Well, Sunny, that's my background of you. You are a genius, I want to say. You are the king when it comes to drug addiction for teens and adults. Um every time I refer someone to you, which is on an average of monthly basis, I follow up all the way through. And I've seen your methods work. I remember you telling me, "If you don't get If you don't let go of all addictions, you can forget it. You got to let go of it." And and we had battles, and we went through this process for years. I I want to go right into it, Sunny, and ask you, can you explain to me what it means what you said a minute ago where we thought we could save him? At what age at what point can you look at a kid and say, "I could still save him." You know, because a lot of times I hear is that No, no, no. It has to come from the kid. You just got to show love. It's got to come from the kid. Is there a certain turning point like you mentioned in that story? I think you got a couple questions here at once, but let me just first say, I'm really It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you. Um I I I will say that I thought you called me on to talk about my marriage cuz that's what I'm the best at. So, I thought that's what I was called on. I'm like, "Addiction? No, what do I know about" No, I'm kidding. I know a lot about addiction. But I did want to say uh publicly that I'm very into my wife. That's for you, honey. I'm loving that. I'm going to stop him. Ushi's looking at you like you're crazy. Yeah, I'm a little I want to tell you I'm a little confused. Sunny, you know, I used to Daven by Rabbi Weiss in Staten Island that every Shabbos his speech would end with Shalom Bayis, with sanctity and peace in your home. Okay. There's no podcast that Sonny can do without mentioning his beautiful amazing wife, my cousin, Yael. So, he he just has a thing about it and he's very like he's married to this concept. Forget about being married to you, Ellie. Yes. He's married to this concept that every day you need to thank your spouse, every day you need to be bring recognition, every day you need to talk about it in a positive way. I think he's a he's addicted to his wife. You are not wrong. Do you tell her often? Do you tell her often or only people on podcasts? Heck yeah. Actually, yeah, all the time. It's very important that you tell her. Deeply into her. Yeah. Even daily, that's fine, that's great. But she should hear it from you personally cuz by the way, not enough men do that and you know the the women, they don't appreciate it. Like they're wanting you to vocalize it, they're wanting you to say it. So, you should have it's a beautiful thing. a little bit of a stigma with it. I'm sorry I heard about this already twice this week so I got to say it. People who publicly show affection and love to their wives are usually not happily married. I was holding my wife's hand a year after I was married and my old rabbi came over to me and he he whispered me in my ear. He goes, "You don't get enough at home?" This was a rabbi who was my rebbe. Okay, he was he was just giving you a message. Yeah, message I shouldn't hold my wife's hand. By the way, Michael, you don't you don't believe in that? You don't think it's there's a little truth to that? Absolutely not. People who show affection in public usually maybe Maybe that's the case. Maybe they're doing it wrong. I don't know what to tell you. This is a known thing. Public affection is perfectly okay. Is it? Yes. How to what extent though? There's something uncomfortable there's something inappropriate about doing things in public. we do on our podcast by the way. We get into debates. I have no problem and I encourage anyone who's in love with their spouse hold their hand. Let the kids see that mommy and daddy love each other. Let even Let even other people appreciate the the the beauty of love between a couple. No, no, we only touch at home. exactly cuz that's where it belongs. No. And if it's on the streets, quite frankly, it's a little off-putting. I don't And you know what? You know, it's you're not you're not gaining anything. Erase that stigma, please. I don't like it at all. Please, hold her hand. We're getting off track. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. Why? Why you know what I'm saying? Michael yelling. I just one second. Why? Why is that? No, I want to hear the logic because it I want to tell you for me even I even though I love talking about my wife and I'm like excited about it, I know that it's kind of taboo and it's a little weird to do it and everybody I know would love to find out that I'm full of it. Like, yeah, he's just like they all like, "Really? Is this you, Michael?" They're rooting against you. They would totally root against you. But I I made a conscious decision to be like really over the top with this because we're talking about all the bad topics about marriage, divorce, get refusal. We're talking about shalom bayis issues. Everybody can talk about all the bad stuff. And then you don't hear one podcast where a guy is like, "I literally live my life to love my wife." Like that's my whole life. Beautiful. She is my Today I was talking with a bunch of guys and I said she is my tether to life. Like without her, I I literally drift into a dark abyss. Like she is everything. to tell you why. I want to tell you where I'm coming But we don't talk about it. So, I made that decision and I realized there's a taboo. But why why wouldn't we do that? Sure. Let me give you my take on this. So, I want to give you an example. Okay, there's a famous story about a CEO of I believe it was Rolls-Royce. I I don't remember if it was Rolls-Royce or if it was Lamborghini. It's one of these exotic companies. And he said that he doesn't believe in marketing, he doesn't believe in advertising. And they they they were really like like prodding him on this. Like what do you mean? Marketing works, advertising works. What are you saying? You don't believe in marketing. Like why don't you put an ad on TV and put it out for people to see? And his response was, "I don't advertise my cars on TV because people who can afford my cars don't watch TV. They don't have time to sit and watch TV, right? People who have money don't tell other people how much money they have. They just don't. They don't feel the need to. It's always the people that have something to prove that have something to show that go out of their way excessively to showcase a little bit more. They go above and beyond to almost prove a point. Now, that's one part of it, okay? The second part I would say is that there are different ways how you can show real true affection to the person you love and to the person who sounds like you're infatuated with. There's a lot of ways to do it. An an effective way to do it and probably the most effective way that she would even appreciate the most is doing it intimately between just the two of you. More than shouting it from the rooftops and there's 50 people in the audience and you tell her how much in front of them than actually isn't as meaningful to her. If you do it just between the two of you and it's about how you do it, it's about where you go and what you do. That's what's the most important thing. So, it goes against everything but doing it in public, even an iota, even a little bit in public for what? What are you trying to prove? Number one. Why do you even think that's what she wants? Why do you even think that's the way she wants you to show affection? So, to me, it sends all the wrong messages. It's all the wrong signals and I I really don't see the merit in even doing it. I don't understand it and it's uncomfortable. And quite frankly, it's your thing. I don't want to see you and your wife relationship on display in front of I don't want to see that. And I don't want you to see mine. It's something that you There's a reason why it was meant to be kept behind closed doors and behind closed curtains. That's how I feel. Okay. I hear that. Are you going to let him have it or should I? You You can have it. No, no, I'd like for you. Honestly, I hear your point. I I'm not There were some good points there. I will say I mean just on the second point first even though cuz if I think the first point's better than the second point. Like if you have something, you don't have to flaunt it to the world. I don't think I would flaunt it as much if I didn't see everybody flaunting everything else. Like we always see the bad marriages. Like they're walking around, we see it. We're like, "Look at their faces. They don't want to see each other. They're sitting in an ice cream shop and looking the other direction." Like they we see it all the time. Well, it's hard to hide. They're trying They don't want you to see it. So, but there are good marriages and we hide something that's absolutely beautiful and all the world is walking around going like, "Is there a good marriage?" Like all we hear is this guy's getting divorced. Like we don't hear what a beautiful thing. So, that's my argument for for kind of why why that first reason was. But that's not you showing that there are good marriages out there. But holding hands in public is not the way to indicate to people I have a good marriage. showing that my intimacy with my wife is my a very important value for me and that it should be a value for the world and it's a very special thing. Now, every community has different like rules on like holding hands and I'm not messing with other communities. Um it happens to be I'm not in that community that although Square is moving on my block so they they think I'm really weird at this point but it's all right, they moved on my block so they don't have a choice. Exactly, they have to adapt, not you. They have to adapt. But what I'm what I'm saying is the second point is is that my wife abs- absolutely loves it when I talk about her. She's uncomfortable a little bit but she loves it that I'm telling the world that she's the most important thing in the world and if she didn't, she would say, "You know, stop." And then I would. Okay, that's that's a preference. That's you know, some type second thing is like how do you know like intimacy Intimacy is different for every person and the fact is that I believe that because I have a public platform and I have a podcast which is called Brainstorm with Sonny Perlman. I have a podcast Nice plug. And thank you. And I have a public forum that I want to spread this idea that marriage is incredibly awesome and it is the best thing that ever happened to me and probably could be the best thing that happens to everybody if they put the right effort into it. And I don't think I hear enough people saying that. They say shalom bayis. It doesn't Like I'm not talking about shalom bayis. I'm talking about what you said, infatuation. I am completely crazy about my wife. I know that she is my everything and I think that when someone hears that, I know the guys I work with when they hear that there's a chance that you could have a marriage that's beautiful. I mean, when I grew up, I didn't know of one good marriage. I had one friend who was kids like all my friends I was from a divorced family. So, all all the friends had divor- All my friends had divorced parents. One had the parents were married. But they lived on different floors. Like they were on a different different bedrooms. So, like we used to make fun of him that his parents were married. When I when I was getting married, I didn't know I knew of one good marriage. Like my sister. Like I knew no good marriages. I never heard of it. All I knew was bad marriages and to me, if someone told like and then I got hope from watching my sister crazy about her husband and I'm like, I would like to pass that hope on because I don't see it happening. We can have a million podcasts about divorce. Mm. Michael, you said it last week. thought. You said it last week. When you open your eyes and you're you smell New York City, you could smell the garbage that somebody put out the night before or you could smell the nuts that are being brewed around the corner, right? That's what you said and it was a great line. And I think it applies to this. You know, you were surrounded by just people that didn't have great marriages and that's kind of where your vision is is right now. But there is a lot out there. It doesn't mean because they're not showing it out in public on full display that it doesn't exist. It does. But I have to tell you a joke right on this topic. I must. I never do I don't typically say jokes on the podcast. We want more, actually. But I got to tell you this joke cuz it reminds me it's a really great joke. It's a fantastic joke. Okay, so It's such a great It's a It's a It's an amazing the best joke. Dude, they're you over-hyping this. None of us No, no, no, it's a great joke. Ah, this is a great joke. I'm going to put the pressure on myself. I'm I'm going to make sure that we have like a laugh track. Yeah, yeah, got to have a laugh track for this. Someone laugh. One from Seinfeld. Yeah, yeah, so there's a certain Hasidus, you know, that they're very against showing public affection with your spouse. And Ger Ger is that Hasidus very against it. Like in all like they don't even let the men and women walk together side by side. Forget about holding hands. So So this Hasid, you know, square Hasid, Friday night, just had his meal and he tells his wife, "Let's go for a walk." And she says, "Sure." So they go outside and you know, he grabs her grabs her hand and they they start walking down the street, romantic, you know. And as they're walking, he notices that the Gerer Rebbe himself is also taking a stroll apparently and is walking across. And he's about to come up to him and he's can't let go that way. He's going to notice that. He doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know what to say. So as he walks, he stops and then he tells the Rebbe, "Rebbe, don't worry, it's not my wife." It's somebody else's wife. It's all good. It's all good. They They really have a problem when it comes to marital public display of affection. They're very against it. And they take it to a crazy line. It's extreme, you know. That's extreme. But there is a lot of merit to both ways. I wouldn't say one way's right or wrong. Just to be clear. Just to be clear, you know, um those those people that want to live in that lifestyle, good for them. Whatever works for them. There are people that meet one time before they get married. Statistically it works for them in many many ways. I'm not I'm not looking to mess with that. But on your second point, Sani, you did a great job addressing the first point. But I'm not looking to mess with that. But on your second point, Sani, you did a great job addressing the first point. But I want to address the second point that you made, which is the you know, you show affection in the house. You do it intimately at home. You don't have to do it outside. I got it. Let's make believe for example for a second that intimacy is good at home and things are good and you're actually living a healthy marriage. That That's what I'm referring to by the way. I'm not saying just hold hands and start being affectionate in public less than at home. Of course, you know, more just a little bit, you know, so on. Uh but to your second point, you have a nice BMW. Don't you want that car car cleaned? Don't you love when people look at it? Aren't you proud of it? Aren't you into it? Isn't it your like best friend at times? Just think about that. You sound like a Hasidic Jew and you want to show off your wife. That's what it sounds like. If holding a hand to you is like washing a car, then it's No, but you're saying like you don't you want to show your car off? You want to have it [ __ ] and span. Do you understand? the concept of being proud of something. So something starts with being proud. It's to hold hands and to hug and to kiss. No, no, no, no. I'm saying hold a hand. No, no. Kiss? Really? Did I say that? No, I didn't. I just said hand. No, no, you said more than that. No, I didn't. All I said was What I said What I said was and I'm I'm sticking to it is that public affection is okay and it's encouraged and if someone wants to do it to a point of obviously being rated PG, right? That Does that make sense to you? Sure, it better be PG. That's it. I would actually say G. Exactly. I would even go so far as to say G. That's fine. You could say G. But unfortunately, Ushi thinks holding a hand is R. No, no, no. Holding a hand is okay. I wouldn't do it. okay. I wouldn't do it. I I don't think my wife would want to do it either. But I I I don't you ask her. No, it's not it's it's it's not about Guess what Ushi is this weekend? He's going to be holding his wife's All right. Let's get back on topic, why we're here today. All right. Let's talk about Sani, why don't you tell me I I don't know about addiction. It's all about marriage. This is all about addiction. tell me what is it exactly that you do and how did you get into this? All right. I'm just kidding. No, no. Give the overview. Yeah, just the overview cuz I don't really know. I don't know. Okay, so right now I mean I've been working in addiction in and I'm a I'm a therapist and addictions counselor for 27 years. Like that's how long I've been working in this field. Um with mainly teens and then adults in different rehab situations. But the two main things that I've done has been Our Place, which is drop-in center for teens in Brooklyn, which is also the umbrella company for the living room and Our Village, which is the new Our and the girls Our Place as well. But they and Our Village. Our Village is the newest project that I'm the most passionate about now, which is a which is a sober living community actually here in Monsey, where we have There is six houses and is a whole community based around healing from addiction and that's post-rehab. They come in and they they transition back into life. So that's what I'm mainly focused on and I'm running programs. I don't really have a private practice anymore cuz I'm busy with Our Place and Our Village. Those are the two things. So teens and the addiction for adults. You do this full time? Yeah, full time. And you have six sober living houses right now in Monsey? Right now we we just opened our sixth house cuz we're opening a women's house. We're starting tonight. Oh, so right now it's five for men and one first one for women. And how many per house? So there's 33 beds for those for those five houses. We just added another 11 beds for women. Wow. And what's the cycle? How long does somebody typically stay in the sober house until you rotate the next one? a new model, which is which is that the sober house does have it's basically an average of a six-month process where you actually it's it costs a little bit of money and a little bit more money cuz there's a lot a lot of staff and services and then they move up from that to the call the step-up level where they can move into the other houses where it is much less oversight and so it at that point they could stay for two years, three years. We had this year we had actually had seven guys get married in the in the program. Wow. unbelievable Seven guys in one year. Probably because I talk about marriage so much. Yeah, yeah, I see that. Anyway, so I was Probably because you hold your wife's hand in public. No, but that's a really beautiful thing because from where they came from they end up now in a functional marriage and and and wow. That's a great result. So they'll stay in the houses or apartments in the area and until they they can stay till they they get married or move on or and so we have guys in apartments that are Really? Couples? Couples are sticking around and we have a whole So people come to this program as husband and wife together? No, no, they don't come originally together, but they now get married, but it's not it's not really a sober living house. It's a sober living community. So there's a lot a lot of community events and we do different things and if I explain addiction to you, which you could be which we which was kind of your first question, then you'll understand that the the opposite of addiction is connection and we are very very serious about building those strong community connections. And we're community within a community. So the guys are very connected to the couple shuls in the area and there's a lot of people involved from the outside as well. Michael's one of them and like we we're we're utilizing the beautiful Jewish community to make this even more amazing. But they could stay for years because they're giving back and they become like older It's a community, so it's not like a program that you leave. You could stick around and help out and keep growing. That's amazing. It's a very very cool concept. I love this. I love this. And who is funding this entire thing? Um Our Place technically is funding it. So who does You do the fundraising or you have fund a lot of the fundraising early on cuz Our Place really kind of wanted to see the proof of concept. But Our Place has really taken over the overall fundraising. The program is close to break even though. So it's not that much fundraising. I just want to say one of the world's leading expert in fundraisers in literally that I've ever met is the guy who runs the Our Place fundraising. Yes. I agree with you. I know who the guy you're talking about. I'm going to RA Young. Yeah, yeah, he's amazing. He's a king. He's very good at it. He's awesome. I just want to I just want to drop a quick, you know, promo for this man here, this this who's built so many programs for people cuz he recognizes that okay, everybody wants to give charity, but you know what, let's do it in a way where it's it's dignified or where you having a good time or you know, he he keeps everyone in mind. And he has pro He's done the tennis. He's started the volleyball. Yeah, yeah, and and even having a dining experience that he doesn't even talk about. It's wild. I mean, can we talk about I heard about that. Yeah. I mean, he doesn't even publicize it. Yeah, yeah. No, he's amazing. He's unbelievable. He's really good at what he does and he does good causes. So I'm happy that you have somebody So without him we wouldn't be able to do all these programs and you're talking about well over a thousand people a year getting help through through through all the programs. It's an incredible incredible place, Our Place. So what spurred this on for you? Like what what How did you even get into this? Well, I was from the streets of Jerusalem with this young man here. Um We didn't do have that. What I call my time before I started getting healthy was my field research. I did some good field research out in the field, you know, living on the streets and doing some stuff. So I I it just made sense that I would go into helping people. Also, I'm from a family that we have nine therapists in my family. My mother was a therapist. We're all therapists. Like that's how it is. Um so he like helping was the direction I was going to go as I as I got better. And then that's been my passion. So I want to help people and it's it's it's pretty awesome. Yeah, good for you. What's like the number one addiction that you see people come to you for? Is there is there one common thread that's typically the pattern? I I understand there are probably a variety of addictions, but is there one that stands out above all that typically this is what the addiction is? Well, okay, so way to answer that. The answer is validation addiction is the biggest addiction. What's validation? Validation is that you love me. I can get you to love me and be impressed with me, then I get my fix. That's the biggest addiction and that's the core of every addiction. But I have to back up to explain mean people addiction. And I can get We're running around and we're talking about holding hands so that someone else looks at you and says, "Wow, look at their marriage." That's what we're all like living our entire lives with. He's going to look at my BMW. He's going to look at this and this and then we're like building our life around making sure everybody loves us so that we feel better about ourselves. That's what we call validation addiction and that's kind of the core of all addiction. Makes sense. So yeah, but no one really puts it that way, but that's how it is. But they the way I see addiction is a little bit different than how most people see addiction. So I can I'd have to kind of explain it and it's all right if I I I do that here. I'm okay. So, basically, I believe that addiction is a spectrum and everybody's got it. Like you were saying, everybody's got some sort of addiction. So, the way I see it is that the and to explain addiction is that is that we have an internal self-esteem, every human being, and that's how we deal with our stuff. Our good feelings, our bad feelings, we deal with it with our internal self-esteem that makes us feel better. When that self-esteem is not strong enough, we use external self-esteem. So, we use outside forces to make us feel better. When you think of an addict, and this I'm trying to make it as simple as possible, when I when you think of an addict, his self-esteem is so low that it's everything he does is external self-esteem. He's using these people to make him feel better. He'll be super charming at work and he'll make everybody love him. He'll he'll use too much cocaine and he'll he'll use relationship addiction, sex addiction, food addiction. He might use It's very hard to find someone who's only addicted to one thing. Everybody It's It's It's on you. It's not on the thing. That's why it's hard to answer that question. An addict is a person who's addicted. So, you'll find that cocaine works the best for you and you'll find that gambling works the best for you. It doesn't really matter cuz that's a thing that you take in from the outside to make our insides feel better. And everybody has an issue. So, like I'll give you an example. Like when we have like Netflix wouldn't make any money if we weren't all addicts. I mean, we all binge watch a Netflix show and nobody should do that. You you probably should not be in anybody's life. Like you said that guy said, "My guys don't watch TV." Everybody's watching TV. I don't know what he's talking about. They're binge watching. They're What what's happening is we're using that to comfort ourselves. And the more we use things to comfort ourselves, the less our self-esteem works and the worse it gets. So, that's how the addiction is. So, so to understand addiction is just that our external self-esteem is way bigger than our internal self-esteem. And everybody's on a spectrum. So, if your self-esteem is at like 70%, your addiction's going to be like a 30%. So, most healthy people are somewhere in that range. Like they're mostly healthy and then sometimes they need to feel better. So, they're doing things they're not proud of. They're eating too much. They you know, they got to go on diets all the time and like regular people. Addicts have no self-esteem the way we think of addicts. They have nothing. They don't feel good. So, the like the main feeling they're feeling is I am essentially unlovable. There's nothing about me that's lovable and therefore, I need to make myself lovable by using these outside forces. So, I don't remember your original questions, but I wanted to explain Yeah, no, that's By the way, it was my question. Literally, I wanted to understand what you do and I wanted to know what the biggest addiction you've seen. And you're saying is the biggest addiction is it all comes from the same root cause, which is a low self-esteem, that makes them now look for other things externally to find to make themselves feel good to cover up that low self-esteem. But what happens Well, what I'm saying is what what I say about the validation addiction is that all addictions, if you peel them back, when we're a kid and we're not feeling good, we try to make everybody love us. Right. We try all different ways and then we realize that it's exhausting to make other people love us. So, that once in a while we'll try a little pot, we'll try a little we'll try a little move away from that and you're going into these other And we cover it and then and then we we take those things like, "Oh, yeah, I stopped drugs, so I'm fine." But It's a great segway. It's a great segway to what we left off earlier and I have to go back to it. Yeah, okay. Okay. Cuz you got to tell me. I mean, I I get this question all the time and concerned parents and you're going to get to that point and you're going to ask yourself and you're going to want to know the tools and now's the best time to learn it, by the way, before your kids reach an age of this potential challenge is when is that transition point? When do you recognize that there's an issue that there's nothing I can do anymore. It's all about the kid needing to help himself and I need to just show him full love. How What's that Please, give me that on behalf of all the challenges that I I understand your question. When a kid Well, Sonny will explain Isn't there always an opportunity for someone to change? You're saying there's a certain point when all is lost and you can't change anymore? Yeah, I don't agree with that, either. So, okay. So, I'll go I'll start by saying the philosophy. that there's that You're showing love. You're not dealing with the challenge. I mean, you're dealing with the challenge separately, but you're let you Okay. So, the interesting thing that in the addiction world, everybody says the idea that if he doesn't want to get better, we can't help him. That's what I'm talking about. That's what you're talking about. So, he's got to want it and then we got to go. talking about that stigma, that challenge, that That's good that you said it as a stigma because I Oh, I'm referring to it as a stigma. I I know your philosophies. I'm just bringing that up on behalf of a lot of people that have challenges and I had that those challenges until I spoke to you about this a decade ago. Right. And that's what I'm saying to you that there is a challenge like that that exists, of course. Like, "Oh, there's nothing we can do anymore." Yeah, of course there are many parents that give up on their kids. There's nothing we could do. All we got to do is show love and that's it. We're done. So, like Well, that's good if they just show love. Sure, if that's the only thing they're doing, it would be it. I wish that was it. Usually, they show toughness, which is the opposite of what you need. So, there is some truth to it. If you really want to heal, you have to want to heal. Like you can't really do much without wanting it. The thing is there's a lot we could do to make someone want it. And it I I best way to explain it is that is Okay. So, every addict What makes your self-esteem go to this place that's so bad? Usually, and everybody's talking about it, trauma and it it's a something happened inside your your love tank, that's what I call it, is that it's got these gash these big holes in it that are that are leaking all the love that you can't hold it. So, something happened, usually some traumatic events or they didn't get a lot of love when they were young and they just don't believe they're lovable. So, they have nothing to hold on to to be able to make the right moves in life. So, that's they're they're they're falling apart and they're they're traumatized people and that's how they are. So, this is I'll bring up cuz I brought it up once on another podcast and people got very very excited about it. So, I will tell you that the whole concept of my program is based on what we call Shiva house rules, like Shiva. Um you sat through a Shiva. I sat through a Shiva recently. The the the rules of Shiva are fascinating because I I really had a question like, "What does Judaism say about healing addiction or trauma or any stuff? What does it say?" It doesn't really have much to say about it. And I didn't realize it till I like was studying like the rules of Shiva and like it came to me that Shiva has the opposite rules of all the addiction programs out there. Most addiction programs out there are trying to train somebody to get better. Like, "Okay, this is how you make your bed. This is how you get a job." This is very behavioral and it's very like, "We're going to teach you how to live life again." The problem is these people don't not know how to live life. They're just so broken that they don't have the strength to do it. And so, our job is to really fill them up and have them do it. In Shiva, you walk in Imagine you walk into a Shiva and you see a guy sitting low down on the floor and you say, "Get up. Get a job. What's wrong with you? Go get a job. Just get a get a life. What are you feeling sad for yourself?" It would be the most ridiculous thing you could possibly say to the guy. We understand. The idea of Shiva is that when someone gets to a place that is so broken and so hurting, we know as a community that it's not on them to get better anymore. It's on us. We have to surround that person. People coming I It was hard for me. I sat through Shiva recently and it was like people just kept coming and coming. They did not allow me to sit by myself for 1 second. They were like, "We got you. We're holding you. You call me from a different country." Like it would people calling, texting, they're holding. And all I wanted was everybody to go away and like I could go hide in my room. Like just uh When someone is broken, all they want to do is hide away and be broken. And the community says, "No. Not only that, we're going to sit here in silence until you talk. I don't need I We don't need you to do anything. You understand that? Sonny, you're This is This is so profound. Because And by the way, and go with this. Keep going with this. Because he's listening to the You're listening to the Shiva rules about the so far two of them I've heard so far, right? Is that you have the outside people that are meant to come and comfort you by design. You're not supposed to fix yourself. You mourn and let your support team rally around and let them do their job. And and the second thing the second thing is that we're going to wait for you to talk first. We're not going to you know, we because you have to you know, you have to help yourself a little bit as well. So, you talk. We're going to sit here and and support you. And these rules, it sounds like it's all about bringing them food. Why don't you all go go make an egg? No. Go get a job. Go get money and buy your own food. No, we're going to bring you food until you're healed. Like So, when you say, "Oh, does that person want to heal?" I didn't want to get better during Shiva. I was just broken. I lost someone I love. I I don't want to get better. I don't want to fix myself. What do we do? You say That doesn't want to get better. You can't fix them. No. Guy walks into my program. He says, "What do I have to do?" I say, "Nothing. It's on us. If you can't feel the love and support from us, you're not going to get better. Your whole job, if there's any job, is try to open your heart a little bit and believe that we love you. And if you could do that, we're going to push our way in and just give you so much love that you're going to be so full that you're going to want to move on to go do in the work. That's when you got to do the work. So, people say, "Let's wait till he's ready to do the work." What do you mean wait? What are you waiting for? This is when he's the most broken. That's when you have to hold somebody when he's the most broken. You'll hold them against their will. They don't have a choice. They have to sit there all day. And I felt so uncomfortable like, "Just go home, you know?" And they're like, "No." The community was like, "Not for 1 second." People I never met before were coming in and saying, "I love you." What was the most it? most broken case? I mean, maybe you don't want to talk about it because maybe people will know, but I imagine pretty much no one will really know. What was the most like broken case that came to you that really just tore you apart? Like you were like, "Wow, this is really bad." Like you weren't even sure if you were equipped to deal with such a thing. I really have a hard time talking about cases, but I that I feel like I wasn't equipped. Here's the Like you were like shocked. Like even you've seen it all, this was something that was For you it was new. I get shocked a lot. Um I have a case that I and unfortunately he passed away, so he did not It's not one of those great stories. I have a million of those great stories, uh but he we sat down counted like a week before he died. And he had gone to 42 programs. 42 programs that I had sent him to and paid for. And I used to call his mother and say, "Just take him home. He doesn't need to be in another rehab. Even if he's using. He just needs his mother to say, he didn't have a father. Just needs his mother to say, "You're here. I love you. You got to do drugs, you got to It's fine." But 42 different stranger programs he had to go to. And none of them told him he loved All he wanted was his mother to say he loved she loved him. I To me that when I tell that story, I want to You're like, "And he died." And it makes me incredibly sad. But and I don't know if she would even have saved him. But he died not knowing his mother loved him. And to me that's that's, you know, you want to hear a story that really tears my heart out, that's a story that really tears my heart out. Wow. But I have a I have a I have another guy that I that I was dealing with. I don't know if you ever dealt No, I don't think you dealt with this case at some point. But for 15 years everybody gave up on him and then he was a dynamic guy, so people would try and try and try. 15 years I stayed with this guy and gave him all this love. I did the Shiva house rules and then for 15 years and everybody dropped off. He was one of the most difficult cases anybody's ever seen. And after 15 years he kept coming back to me and the same message was, "I'm here for you, loving you no matter what. If you want to do more, you just tell me and I got you." And the And the whole time he would take He would yell at me and scream at me and harass me and it was unbelievable. And then he said finally two He He overdosed twice in one week, flatlined both times. And then he called me, said, "I'm ready." And now he's years in recovery, healed He's like got a business, a bank account, a car, a motorcycle. He's got friends. He's mentoring people. He's You're talking about like incredible stuff. And this is a guy who was living on the streets, like legit homeless in New York City. Like legit like everybody would give up on this guy. But he was being held. So like you have You have both sides. You know, but the answer is always They're not So addiction, if you want to know, addiction is it's the answer to a problem. The problem is I feel empty. And I feel hopeless and I feel completely unlovable. That's how I feel. And I need to I need to answer that question. So either I get the strength for myself or something is the answer. When I use heroin, I Guys describe it to me as the most amazing hug they've ever felt in their life. Really? Hug Do you use that adjective hug? Like the best hug it's like a hug forever. Wow. It's the best hug they ever had. Why they describing it that way? Cuz that's all they want. Addicts are not crazy. People are like, "Oh, that's That's That's insanity, addiction." No. They're looking for the same answer we're all looking for. The The question is, how could I feel whole? And they're not getting it from themselves and from people around them, so they're looking for somewhere else. Yeah. That's what's happening. So to understand addiction is within all of us and I don't think there's a person who listens to this that can't say, "Oh, that's me a little bit." "Oh, wow. I sometimes feel really empty." And I And And there are times in your life where you feel more empty. That's why we have Shiva rules. Yeah. You Someone dies in your family, you feel worthless. Like Like the whole Everything's bleak. Yeah. I have to say I have to say, Sonny, first of all, I love you. Thank you. And on behalf of literally, you know, all the people that we've been in touch with over the past two decades, thank you for everything. Like You're You're inspiring, you're educating and it's I'm getting emotional listening to this to what you have to say because we've been through so many cases together personally from the community. And one I'm remembering about now and I'm just going to bring that topic back because I still didn't get the answer to my question. Um but I'm loving everything you're saying. Meaning I'm learning so much and and and it's amazing. And these are tools that you can always take with you. And uh this is a lot about personal growth today. Uh not professional growth, you know, so much, but you know, at the end of the day when it comes to the kids that reach that teenage years and where you're looking out for them and you're giving them the love and then there's that that shift. I I still want to go back to that. The reason why I want to go back to that is Can you enlighten me for a a minute? How many overdoses are there in our community? What's happening? What's going on in the world today? Do you know? Do you have any sort of That's actually a good question, first of all. It gets Okay, so we'll get to We'll get to you on the program, but like Is it Is it as bad? Is it worse? Is it the same? Are the numbers high still? Are we hearing about things? Listen, they're definitely um I'm very bad with the numbers, definitely. I will say the community that I'm dealing with, it is incredibly rare that we have an overdose. Like from the Our Village community. That's amazing. Yeah, of course it's amazing. step in the right direction. Yeah, yeah. Um it's it's incredibly rare. There was someone who passed away um like two, three years ago. That was I'm not sure to tell you I want to tell you personally I've been hearing less. I actually been It is definitely less. I actually been hearing less. And And I'm proud to say I've been hearing less because knowing people like you and Svee and every everyone involved that that have been doing so much for the community. I want to go back to to that teenage year. Right. When you look out for a kid and you see that he's transitioning and I know you didn't resonate with this a little bit, but we're going to give it another shot. Mhm. Which is What do you mean like a fourth shot? Yeah. It's like your fourth time to get an answer. He really is trying to get Third time, yeah. I have so much better questions to answer. It's like I'm just answering your other I'm not sure why you're so infatuated with this this question. I know why you're asking because you're a parent. Yeah, yeah. And you're like, "What am I looking for? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like what is it? Exactly what I'm asking. Right. As a parent you can't ask that question when you don't have a teenage kid. It's just not going to happen. So I I I think better yet I don't. No, my oldest is But I But I think I I maybe would be a little bit different way to rephrase the question. Sure, go for it. Is what can you do as a parent along the way to prevent give yourself the best chance that your child remain healthy, that there isn't that pivotal moment of when you need to save them and when you need to actually go down like what prevention can I do over treatment? No, you're going to say love. That's what I was But that's a very That's a cop out. That's a very easy answer. tell you. Not just love. That's just love. We all give our kids love, Michael, right? You give your kids love. out for? What do you need to really focus on? Look out for? What are those really Michael, thank you, Ashi. What are those trigger things? Thank you, Ashi. What do you need to look out for as a kid getting older? Yes. I'm not going to go in any direction. First of all, there's nature and nurture. There's certain kids that just naturally are more prone to fall into this. There are kids that are born with like stronger um like internal systems. They just work better. They can handle more pain and just they they are born that way. So there is a nature piece to this. And then there's nurture people. I can Nurture is like all the abuse and the stuff like that. So start by not abusing your kids. Let's Let's talk about that. I'm not talking about that. I'm just going to say that. Don't abuse your kids. Um Mentally. Physically. Any sort of abuse. Don't abuse your kids. Absolutely. I'm making that as a statement. I'm not embarrassed to say it. level of abuse, Sonny, level of abuse would be what? Dude, there's a million levels of abuse. You can say a mean thing to your kid or Is that abuse? Is mean Is mean Sorry. Sorry. That's what That's what my point was, Sonny. Is saying a mean thing to your kid, is that a form of Sure, of course it's It could be. Okay. I Verbal abuse I'm making sure I'm from a parent might be worse than physical abuse. Okay. I'm making sure we Verbal abuse from a parent Yeah. hurts deep. It cuts deep into a kid. Yelling at a kid, berating him. Embarrassing them. Yeah, those are those are horrible things. Love it we're on the same page. Very much. I love more when we debate though, Yeah, no, no. We'll get back to that soon. Go ahead. Okay, so to answer both parts of the nature nurture thing. The nature is addicts almost 100% of the time of addicts I have will be considered the very sensitive kid. If you have one kid who's super sensitive and that means he's very sweet and loving to the other siblings, but like emotions just overwhelm them and they're just like overwhelmed by emotions and they're just They're always feeling their feelings. That's the nature. That's the kid. He might be the most delicious kid in the whole universe. Um but that's the kid who's the most susceptible for addiction. That's from my own research now. That's exactly what I was asking you. Okay. I appreciate that answer. But it's not fully an I want you to keep going. Okay. On that Exactly what I was Does that make sense now? Right? They call them a HSP. Seven? HSP. It's like highly sensitive people. Right? So that's what they call them. You just made that up. No, no, no. No, no. It's It's a real thing. It's a real thing. HSP, highly sensitive people. I know some HSPs out there. Yes, you do. And by the way, every one of us has one kid like that, at least. So you It doesn't mean they're all becoming addicts, but they're very susceptible to it. Um and then on the other side is that addicts always go through things in life that are exceptionally difficult. So, you could say, and this is what people like to point out, "Oh, learning disability is a big thing in in addiction." Like you have a lot of people with learning disabilities. You have a lot of people who went through abuse, a lot of people who um who There's a million things. I'm I'm just for some reason it's slipping my Basically, in our life, we go through all these different challenges. The harder it is for a kid, let's say a kid has got a serious anxiety and he has to go to school every single day, that's a nurture thing that's going to be that's going to be hurting this kid. So, if you have a highly sensitive kid who goes through a lot a lot of challenges, there's something called the ACE score, which is um childhood experience score, and that's the whole score you can take with a psychologist, but it the higher the more challenges you've had as a child, the higher the chances. So, if you had, let's say, a single parent home or a death in the family or a special needs kid in the family or all these things stack up, and the more things you stack up on a highly sensitive kid, that's the one you're going to be in trouble with. So, you the answer is that person needs Shiva house rules. Meaning that person, you have to realize you're trying to train him like the other kids in the house who are who are like totally could handle things. Like you could totally be like, "You're grounded for a week." And that kid would be like, "Shoot, I messed up. I'm going to go to my room. You know, my stupid parents grounded me." And they're And they're they're fine. And they change that and they learn their lesson and then they're fine. But then there are kids you say you're grounded, and then they run out the window and they curse you out and they spray paint your wall and they they like they're not getting it. They're not getting the punishments cuz they're just hearing more pain. That kid you need with the those gloves that you got to be holding that kid cuz something's really hurting that kid. So, that I mean, I'm giving very big generalities because it's really really hard to like focus this down to this answer. You did a great job articulating it, but that's I love it. Yeah, yeah. I I understood it very well. You know, I want to give you a lot of accolades here because you're doing something that unfortunately, I you know, we we've said this before, Michael, in in another previous podcast is that in our communities for a long time, certain things have been very taboo. And it's something that, you know, we don't like to deal with. We shove it under the rug and we ignore it, hoping it's going to go away or we outcast some of those people that aren't just fitting in and and put them to the sideline. It's very different today. Today, there's so much more awareness, and not just more awareness, but people actually doing something about it. And more accepting, less judging, and more let's get to the root of the problem and let's help fix it. And you're one of those guys. You're one of those guys that's out there making a difference in other people's lives. And while Michael and I are very hyper-focused on what goes on around us in our lives, and sure, we we like to help people as well, and Michael obviously a lot more than the average person actually, but you're full-time. Full-time is you're dedicating your time to helping other people, which which is an amazing and it's not just you, there's a lot of people out there in our community. It's like for every one person that's a giver, there's another person that's a taker. We have the givers and the takers, and it's it's really divided equally, and it's such a beautiful thing to see. I have a little bit of exposure to this because I actually have one of these sober living houses in my community where I live, and I see some of the people that are coming from them, and they actually come to our shul and they daven with us. Uh I've had some of them over to my house to eat the meal, and I've gotten to know them a little bit, and some of them are such sweet people. Like you would never know that there's something wrong. And I don't even know what their real problem is. I never asked, quite frankly, I don't care. You know, I'm I'm a very accepting person, and as long as, you know, it's not I mean, I have kids at home, so you know, I have to keep a little bit of an eye just to make sure, but for the most part, these are really really sweet people that you if you met them on the street, you'd never know. You'd never know there's something wrong at all. And I am so privileged. I keep saying this. I said this to you earlier, guy. I'll say it again. I'm a part of this community where there are people like you that aren't wearing hair capes. You're wearing a regular T-shirt, but you're a hero because there are a lot of people out there that are being affected and their lives are going to be different. They're going to have kids, and those kids' lives are going to be different because of things guys like you are doing. And I want to ask you, are you alone on this? Do you have other people Do you have counselors? Do you have volunteers? Like big brother volunteers, types of things? Talk a little bit about what else you have in the program to support you in being able to reach out to as many of these people that need help as much as possible? want to say part of it as an outsider is the strategic placement of the houses within the community, which is what we started this conversation with, which is why they come to you for Shabbos, and which is why we help them get jobs, and Rabbi Burger being the rabbi of the of one of the halfway This is the whole idea of them. And I want to kudos to you. to shout out one person who you probably know very well. I want to shout him out. I want to give his name a ring because he deserves I'm actually not going to say his name because he's very humble, and he's very modest. And if you don't say his name, I will. He probably doesn't want his name to be said out loud. it out. He doesn't want to say it out loud, but he is a saint. He gives jobs to these kids and to these people. a lot more than that. A lot I'm sure he does a lot more than that, so we already know who we're talking about. He gives jobs to I'm about I'm talking about [ __ ] Talking about [ __ ] So, all right. When he's coming on my pod, his wife said yes. This is real? There you go. If his wife said yes, he's coming on the podcast. [ __ ] I love you. Good. So, he's coming on the pod. Excellent. So, he does it from a really really good place. He just wants to help. He doesn't He don't He doesn't need the help. an organization based on our organization. Right. The answer to your question is after all these years of doing this work, all these years, I really came down to understanding that I don't know all the things to fix somebody. I don't. But I do know that it cannot happen without a community. It cannot happen without hundreds of people supporting and loving you constantly. It will not happen. To me, I'm not building the healing program. I'm building the vessel that people could get healing. It's really hard to not get better when you're being loved by so many people. So, I discovered this years ago, and my whole dream of this program is not to be hidden away in Virginia or Florida or some program and you go and isolate yourself and then you come back and your family's supposed to understand what's going on with addiction. I want this work to happen smack in the middle of our program smack in the middle of our community. People in the community think, "What could I do to help? I don't have any degrees and this and that." I want everybody to know that having a guy over for Shabbos is as good work as most of what we're doing. Yeah, we have the degrees and we're like we're we're strategizing. But the fact that [ __ ] opened [ __ ] opened this program called the Neighbors with Simcha Hyman. I'm going to shout him out, too. But they opened this program called the Neighbors, and they're giving more love to these guys, and these guys have no degrees, no training, no anything. Just give them jobs, give them love. No one needs to teach you how to love. Everybody everybody could help. Like Ellie said the other week, it's filling up tires. It's it's stocking the shelves. It's giving the snacks. It's It's just amazing, Sonny. I'm I'm It's everything. Yeah. This wasn't around 20 years ago, 25 years ago. When I was growing up, I'm saying, when you were growing up, even longer than I was, but it sure was but it wasn't around when I was growing up. I remember being a part of a similar concept to this, which was for teens at risk, and having a place where to go after hours, so they weren't roaming the streets at night. I was probably like 18, 19, 20 years old at the time, and I remember where this program was. It was on the corner of 306 and Viola. They purchased a house there, and it was going to be converted into a a environment that these kids could come to. And they asked me to come as well as like sort of to hang out there, you know, with the with the other kids. You're You're laughing like you just remember what it was. Okay. So, that was I I believe that was one of the first times they had such a concept here in Monsey is when they came up with the idea, but when I was growing up, there's no You know what it was? You were a bum, and you were no good, and nobody wanted to have any part of you, and it did so much damage, and there's so many of those people that today are products of the lack of what we had back then that they didn't turn out okay, and they're probably, you know, having very difficult lives right now. But, you know, we're evolving as a community. We're understanding better that there's ways to treat this, and that's what God wants. God wants that. He wants us to help each other. He wants to lift each other up. Don't be busy judging and trying to see how you're better than the next person. Actually get involved in helping the next person. Right? Some people, it's unfortunate, they knock you down to lift themselves up. What you're doing, Sonny, and you're an example for everyone, is you're picking yourself up by lifting up others around you. And that's what fills you up, and that's what's amazing. And I got to tell you, there's going to be families that are going to be credited to the work that you and everybody around you, the Shlomos of the world, that are doing. It It wasn't available. It wasn't around back then, but we're not just saying this is how it always was. And it is what it is. We're not saying that. We're doing something better. We're changing things, and let's see what else is out there, Michael, that we can change in our communities. What else I do have to mention you saying Monsey, it triggers me to say Rabbi Shmuel Gluck, Eis Klatsko, Moshe Frankel. Eis Klatsko. That's These are guys that dedicated their life legends. They were They were alone. They were the They were the Bob Dylans of of what's happening. It like it Afterwards, everybody starts appreciating them. They were trailblazers. They started when it was a nothing. And like you said, the bums, you know, we're running out of time, but there's a couple of things we still want to do, and I have to ask you a question, Sonny, from a technical standpoint of what you just mentioned. Your teenage boy or girl wants to go to 7-Eleven. Wants to go to the pizza shop. question. Wants to go to the supermarket on a Saturday night to hang out with their friends. You know, I I was knocking you till you know your questions, and I want to give you a compliment. Can I say one thing about I want to know this question because as I'm thinking about this already now as my kids grow up. his answer. I'm starting to think about this. I am thinking about this. your kid going to be a bum? Yeah, no, no. What am I going to do if he's going to tell me I want to go to 7-Eleven at 10:00 at night? Or I want to go to Evergreen, which apparently has become a very big hangout in Brooklyn. That's exactly what I wanted to ask. What do I do? Do I People go to hang out in aisle seven of the frozen food section. It's a thing. Because I have to go to Evergreen. And boys and girls and they're mingling me cuz that's where I go. I meet everybody. In Brooklyn, we had Avenue J. Right. And in Monsey, you have aisle seven. At the end of the day, kids need a place it where it is, wherever be it wherever it may Kids definitely need a place to hang out. I'm okay with What do you do? What do you do? I I I want to turn to Sunny and ask him exactly how what's the message? How do you articulate everything that we said today and encapsulate all of that into the message of should my kid go to the pizza store just to hang out? This I I will tell you after all these years, I don't really think I have a very good answer. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. I mean, for me I I've been through this so long. Like I my my kids could do whatever they want. They completely get whatever they want, and it's it's probably terrible. I don't I'm like I I don't care. I just love you. They Like I I didn't go through this. I taught them how to be good people. They're all good people. And I know every single one of them, and they're happy, and they're healthy. They're awesome, healthy healthy, happy. I didn't make a big fuss about this. But there are a lot of communities where I I don't know how to give an answer because you literally have built a system where you have a shitakh system where if you went to Avenue aisle seven, you can't have a shitakh. Like it's there there are like to tell parents like take a chill. Why can't take a chill if if uh the next family that lives next door sees my kid there and this is a this is a a real issue in a tight community that we have. There's a lot of benefits to a tight community, but there's also like there's also like a lot of issues with with struggles. Like I I don't want to marry a kid who I saw him hanging out with girls for the for the last five years and now all of a sudden he's a yeshivish. Like I don't buy it. Like you know, so it's a very hard question to ask because there are ramifications I don't I the answer because I there's there's ramifications that I don't I'm not willing to take. And now you want to answer from a psychological point of view? Teenagers are going through a period of time where they have to rebel against you. They have to separate themselves cuz they're supposed to make their own families now. They got to create their own terms. I want to tell you something. The sickest people I know, and this is going to shock people. The people I worked with which who were the most difficult, I'm talking about foster care which is like a total abandonment of children, the ones that are the sickest, the biggest sign was they cannot say anything bad about their parents. They literally see their parents as saints as teenagers. And the only reason is cuz they feel so unsafe that they're scared that their image of the parents is going to float away. But every single normal kid go looks at the parents, rolls their eyes, snorts their nose, it is built into our system to rebel against our parents so that we could go and build our own families. And that happens. And then we try to suppress it. I'd say stop stop stop. Even though our first of the avos was Avraham Avinu who was called rebel. That's how he separated from his father and was able to go out into the world. Like we have this whole moshav in the Torah. It's not like we this is new. And then we try to stop it. Kids are supposed to separate from you. It's fine. If you have a time machine, my mother used to say when I was a teenager, she used to say cuz I was torturing her. It was terrible. And I was not good at you know, I was taking this rebellion thing very seriously. And um she she would say which I thought was pretty loving. She would say, "I wish I had a time machine because I know you're going to be all right when you're like 25. But I don't want to be here to watch it. You know what I'm saying? Like If you That's a great line. It's a great line because and and it was her way of saying I have hope in you, but are you driving me crazy? Like I know you're going to be all right, which I felt. I was like, "Okay, she believes in me." But she couldn't handle it. As parents, we can't handle it. We want to murder these kids. Stop being the worst ever. But they have to do it on some level now. Everything's a nuance. Do I do I punish for this? I punish this. I will give you a basic rule that Avi Fischoff talks about, which I really like, which is he says the moshav of like a guy's driving the wrong way on a one-way street. If you walk over to him, you'd be like, "Hey, dude, it's a one-way street. You see that?" And the guy's like, "Oh, oh my god, I didn't realize." He turns around and makes a U-turn. But if the guy's like, "I don't care about one-way streets. I go whichever way I want in any street I want." That guy, you can't do regular parenting with that guy. Meaning like that So with kids, try to do some discipline. Try to ground them. Try all that stuff. If they constantly aren't learning their lesson and they keep rebelling against you doing normal parenting with them, then this is a highly sensitive person, and this is somebody that you need to give them a little bit more of a shiva house rules. This is going to be different. So if you want to if you're tying it around to our to our thing, try to be a regular parent. It's also uh Yakov Shapiro in his book. Yakov Shapiro became a like big anti-Zionist. Uh if you want to get him on the podcast, he's I think he's out of his mind now. But I I don't know I probably shouldn't say that a lot. Uh but uh he's a he's a rabbi in Bayswater. And he wrote a book. And in his book, he said that when you're this when he worked with teens. When your kids go from childhood to teenagehood, you go from management to sales. So like when your kids are like under age, you're like, "Do this." you hear that? That's not bad. You go from management to sales. You change you pivot your approach. So you guys got this good for your podcast because you got to sell it to them. If they're not buying it, they're not doing it because that's that's what I was saying. Can you can you uh can you resonate with this? Do you find I I think you know, it's a whole truth for what I know and from the people that I know and for myself included, your parents, let's say your parents have six kids, right? And the oldest is you know, 10 and and below, right? So the 10-year-old when he turns 20, they'll be the the youngest will be 10, right? The parenting model, their style, changes drastically every time. from the first kid when they were 10 to the sixth kid when they turned 10. And you're like when you're 20 and you're seeing how they're parenting your sibling at 10, you're wait a second. I didn't get that. I didn't have that flexibility, or they would have yelled at me if I ever did such a thing. Everybody could Everybody's probably smiling right now because it certainly happened, you know, in with their siblings, right? Like what's up with that? Like we we we change. As we get older as parents, we also get smarter, we get more experience. We also have a little less patience. So we're like more giving. Like we're not on top of our game anymore. We have less oversight with the kids. Like it's a real job to be a parent. It's a responsibility because you really have to make an effort. The same as you did when you were young and you were fresh and you were all into disciplining your kids and you're going to get the best kids. And then you get older and things start to differently. I'll tell you what. I see it a little differently. I think when we start being parenting, we're convinced that our parents did a terrible job, and we're going to do a fantastic I'm going to do such a good job that our kids are going to turn out so well and then I ain't going to have any trauma and anxiety, none of that, and no depression, and no anything. And we're going to make perfect people cuz we believe the lie that our parents make us. They don't. They just make part of us. You know, like they they're you know, so we believe that. So what we do when we start is like we're going to be perfect parents, and and then you watch it not work. That's what I'm saying. He's like, "I'm going to tell them this way, and then they're going to do that way, and then they're going to come out." And then you watch this kid away. Wait a minute. He's 16. He's got all the anxiety I had at 16. Yeah, maybe he has a nicer place to live. Maybe he doesn't have he maybe he's not going to live on the street, you know, whatever. Maybe it's a little different. But he's feeling anxiety. He's feeling he's he's feeling he feel anxious around people. He's feeling he's gets depressed. He sleeps in bed for a week. Like and you're watching this in your 16-year-old, and you realize like why is stopping so crazy? Just raise your kids. Love them. And that's what happens. Like I see it as like the younger kids kind of get the like I just love you. Like I I I'm not going to try so hard to shape you. And I think that's why this oldest gets the yerusha, right? Cuz they're the ones that we screw up the most. Right. They're the they're the guinea pig. They're the ones you you practice on on the oldest one. will tell you though, you're kind of saying the same thing though. I think what Ushy's also recognizing is as a parent gets older, they recognize that and they realize through therapy or through speaking to rabbanim and teachers that you just have to shower them with more love. Right. The tough love, the disciplining, all of that doesn't work as effectively to get an outcome that you want. And you know what else? You always have that aha moment. When you're younger and your parents used to tell you, they told me all the time. Every kid hears this. "When you get older, you'll understand." I'm like, "Well, why can't I go here?" "When you get older, you'll understand." Like that was a cop-out answer. We were stupid. Then you get older, and you're like, "Oh my god, that's what they meant. Now I understand. That's what they meant." And now you're going to say the same thing to your kid. But that's when you realize that your parents were actually geniuses. And your parents were not half as bad as you thought they were. They actually had an idea what they were doing. Oh, and by the way, they really did love you. They really did mean your best. They had your best interest in mind. way, I have trauma from that, I have to admit. And we'll you got to come to a close here soon, but I'll say real quick that I never tell my kids when you get older, you'll understand. I sit down right then, and I explain them everything. you can't explain everything every time. everything. Even when it's not age-appropriate, they'll explain something to them? But there are certain times that it goes over their head. Even if you explain to them they can't really truly process what you're saying. This is the difference. Oh, this is the difference. He has older kids and he still have younger kids. You're still trying to make it work. I used to not explain everything. He'd be like, "I'm not explaining it." But he says he never said that. like, "Yeah, but He says he never said that to his kids. He never said, "When you get older you'll understand." line. No, I've never said that line ever since they were a kid, but I've tried explaining them things differently since they were a kid till now. Yeah. But you've said that line to them at some point. No, no, no. I've never said that. You've never said it. Never said that line. When you're older you'll understand. I sit down and explain more now than I did earlier. I just used to just ignore it. Oh, you would ignore it. ignored it at that time. Oh, it's the same thing. Yeah, okay. I would just never say those words. So when you get older now you understand why they ignored it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now you understand why they ignored it. Exactly. I will say I'm much better at marriage than I am at raising kids. So I'm going to say well, you're dealing with another adult, so it should be easier, you'd think. I'm not raising my wife. That's what I'm saying. You're not raising her and she's another adult. It's very hard to raise somebody. be easy. It should be easier than raising kids. I've seen you do it for years and people by the way have a misconception of the way we grew up also. Sometimes they say, "Oh yeah, look at you. You know, you grew up on the streets in Israel and so on and you became successful. So why can't we do it?" I've heard that question from other kids also. I think um I It's sad to say that we've lost a lot of friends along the way. Yes. And I don't think that people recognize that. And um I wish you'd talk about it more in the open when something like this happens. everybody should know and the other kids should hear that. I remember in my school growing up I was probably like 13, 14 years old at the time and there was a uh boy my age who overdosed and uh was found on Shabbos by his parents. It was found in his bed um and it was it was a tragic I remember that time it was like it was terrible it was chaos it was really bad. You know what they did? They tried to like not talk about it. My parents didn't talk to me about it at all. No one knew any of the details. They tried to do it hush-hush and just keep it quiet. Gloss over it. I think that was a mistake and I think today that wouldn't happen because of what you're doing you're bringing exposure to it. You're making This is a part of our society. It's happening. Are you going to deal with it or you going to ignore it? It is happening. Just because you ignore it doesn't mean it's going to go away. So we have a much better approach today than we used to have when we would actually keep things quiet and wouldn't talk about it as much. Big mistake. You got to talk about it. Let the kids hear what happens. This is where you end up if you don't follow the path and if you don't do things and we're trying to help you. We're doing this because we love you. We're not trying to harass you. We're not trying to make your life harder. We want you to have the best life possible and kids should realize that. Right. I'm I I feel like love the way you said right because there's so much you want to answer. Yeah, I know you by now. I I will say answer to it? You don't agree with that? say I'm very excited because I was from the first of like Mensch in Ace and Myish and Rabbi Glock and all this stuff. Like I was from started in the 90s. So we we're we're going back and we were whistleblowing. Hey, this is really happening. I'm really glad that's over. It was annoying. Yeah. No, I'm saying like now No, I'm saying I'm agreeing with you. Like I like okay, okay. Can we just admit it's happening and now do something about it? So now we're in the states like in the beginning I was kind of the enemy of the community. Like what is he doing? He's ruining the game. And now everybody's like, "Wow, Shani Perm is doing all these wonderful things." I don't even know what to do with the accolades like you said. Like I don't I don't know what to do. I'm hiding in a basement trying to help kids while you fight me. It's not the same fight and I'm very happy for it. And I'm just really grateful I don't have to go around whistleblowing. There's deaths and this and and like I don't even like you ask me about the deaths I'm like, "I don't care. Everybody knows it's a problem." Like it's a problem. Y'all uh let's do something. You were saying that And I love it. What you were saying was really what was the problem? It was back in the day. Like if you would actually point out that there's a problem and I wanted to people like they would try to squash you. They would try to get you to go away because they didn't want you to expose what's going on in the community and they were they were the problem. Those people that were suppressing this and were trying to hide this they actually unfortunately have a hand in potentially letting it get to where it got to. That maybe now the problem is bigger, but thank God that everybody is out there now aware and we're doing things about it and we're making progress. It sounded like making real progress. Like you're actually having success. What would you say your success rate is on the amount of kids that come through your system? Like 50% of the kids end up on the path correctly, 30%? What would you say your He's talking about our place. He's talking about the place. Yeah, yeah, your Our place and our village is different. Our place is very hard to track. Yeah. Um although I Not our place. No, in the sober living house. Sober living house is adults. That's different. Even so, what's that percentage? It's Is it high? Very close to like 80% of the Wow, that's great. That's amazing. That is something that is a pet peeve because the addiction community is is the recovery community is very into like 20% great. 80% is great. 20% is not great. No. Terrible. I would shut down a hospital if it has 20% success rate of saving people. I would shut it down immediately. Exactly. So great line. Yeah. So I'm sick of that and that's why I created this because I really and I believe that everybody's working too hard. It's a lot easier than people think. People just need that incredible warmth of You said the community And I'm utilizing the Jewish community which is like I don't know if it'll happen in every community because I literally who would give drug addicts jobs and stuff like that? I have guys all over the community. People listen to this podcast call me say, "Hey, I have jobs for you guys." You could hire, you know, an an immigrant or you could hire a Jewish kid who's struggling and people in the Jewish community are like completely like helping out. Yeah. So I'm utilizing what's already there and it's a gorgeous community in a lot of ways. Not that I don't have criticism of the community. I do, but it but in general I'm very happy to be part of it. Well, somebody just moved into town. I love this community. Look at that part. Your real estate value is going up. Yeah, but by the way I just but what's one of those great got a new manager in my podcast and he's like "Start yelling about things. Why aren't you telling everybody the bad stuff?" Yeah, exactly. Air your grievances. Let's go. to hear. That's what I want. Give me one thing. Give me one thing. Give me one thing. That bothers me about the community. Yeah, something that bothers you about the community. Go for it. I I will I will say I actually brought it up on the podcast before. I think that the fact that it became oppressively expensive to be an Orthodox Jew is like is something that has to be fixed. Like yes. not a community issue. That's it is. No, it's a community issue. Oh yeah. That's not a specific community issue. That's every community in the Jewish Right, it's But by the way it cost me $100,000 always more expensive to be a Frum Jew is a really scary thing. But is there one of the problems in tuition this year. Yeah, it's $100,000 taxes easy. That's just tuition. Yeah, it's I'm saying this year it's way over $100,000. No, I don't like this one. Give me another one. What she said is not gossiping enough for me. I tell you the truth Zack who I hired is going to be very upset at me, but I I I love the community. I don't want to go into it. Oh, okay. But do you have like multiple problems? Like Things that could be fixed? Things that could Here's Here's my problem is that I need to always see both sides. And so the second someone wants me to be upset I only see the good. I I don't know how to Great. If you start telling me good stuff about the community I'll be like, "But That's fine though. Nothing is ever perfect. Listen, the shidduch system we mentioned before is like we were just mentioning before is crazy that I have to worry about how my kid is at 14 years old or 15 years old or that his brother is this and his sister is this to marry off a kid when we come from a Torah that everybody had terrible families. Yes. Like everybody was getting married with their absolute Like Yaakov Avinu would never have gotten a shidduch. Think about it. Yaakov he had a brother like Esau. Neither of them would have. He never would have gotten a shidduch in today's society. He married off 12 children. Married off 12 plus a lot of camels though. Well, to be fair he married them off to their sisters. No, okay. So Uh they know what you're No, I what I will say is that it's it's unbelievable the amount of judgment we have for other people when we there's not a family out there that doesn't have people that are different. We're human beings. We're all different. So the only way to make the shidduch system work is everybody lying. Just everybody has to lie cuz it's impossible that your family's perfect. I've never met a family that's perfect and everybody looks and goes, "Oh, that family's really perfect. Look at how nice the house is." Like that. And then that person comes to me and is like, "This kid's got addiction. This guy's got a side. My marriage is falling apart." I I I This is what I hear all day long. You can never tell me that somebody's got it going. Because everybody who's told me that they come to me later. They come to shul listen, "Hey, I know you deal with this stuff. Could you Could I just talk to you for a second?" I'm like, "What? You have You have a perfect life." Everybody's literally pointing at you. Remember Mitzvah Netzach the big singer? He died like a year or two ago. Yeah. I happened to be grew up listening to him. My father really liked listening to Mitzvah sing and so I used to hear his music a lot, but he had a song where he told a story about a person who came up to the next world and they opened the closet for him and they said, "Here is the world's Everybody's problems are in here. They're packages. They're all labeled and you could see exactly what's part of their problems that they have in their package. You got to pick. I'm going to send you back down to the world. You're going to have a new life and you got to pick which one you want." He looks He's looking at these doesn't and eventually he realizes I'm sorry. I want my own. I want mine that I had I don't want anybody else's Like he couldn't find somebody else's package that he liked more than his. And the moral of that story was that everybody always thinks that there's something better in the next person and there is. There are things they have better than you, but there are things they have worse than you and there are things that you can handle. Everybody's supposed to be able to only handle what they get. God doesn't give you I don't believe more than what you can handle. They say he doesn't slap with two hands, right? So everybody has to just be conscious of that that it's not better out there. Be happy with what you have. Easier said than done. Easier said than done. It's very difficult to do so, but at the end of the day it's true. It's been proven. It's almost like a fact is that no one has it better than the next person. If you can get past that I think it'll give you better self-confidence which will give you I guess what you're saying less addiction which is really the remedy ultimately, right? Is to build yourself up. Fill yourself with real things so you don't need externally defined things and that's where addiction becomes a big problem. Full circle. Is that right, Shani? Is that right? That's amazing, bro. We have to a lightning round and uh Ushi, we're going to give it another shot. So, let's do this. 60 seconds on the clock And you got the clock going. You get one of none of your business answers. You're saying that it could be all none of your business you don't know how deep it's going to get. Let's give it a shot. We've customized it for our guests, so this is more for your line of work and uh here we go. What's harder, being a therapist or a parent? Parent. Whoa, that was quick. Your biggest pet peeve in therapy? I people talking about everybody else being a narcissist. What's the one word you would describe running a halfway house? Patience. The most important tool in recovery? Uh acceptance. The most satisfying part of your day? Getting to bed. The most eaten snack at the halfway house? Uh Uh I don't know. I don't know. Is that a I don't know. Is there one item that people eat a lot? They eat so much of everything. I don't I don't know. Xanax? It's Hopefully not. Are you kidding me? They do not eat Xanax. because like they have in like a lot of places where they have coffee. Coffee's like the biggest thing. Like I mean you eat Yeah. What One of the things is that they I don't know I know it's a lightning round, but I'm saying one of the things is is that because we believe in the Shiva House Rules idea that I Yeah. Yeah. now calling it Shiva House Rules. Um is that we have such an abundance of everything. There's like tons of food. It's like feels like a childhood house. So, there's a normal Everyone has their own favorite Yeah. Every single week everybody texts what they want in the shopping list. We get everything. That's cool. I love that. I have two more questions. The most common emotion in recovery? Hopelessness. And what is finally the most unpopular addiction? Most unpopular addiction? I don't know. It's a Unpopular for who? For me. First of all, is there is there addictions that are treated differently than other addictions or the same type of method? everything different. I don't think you should. You think it should each be separated with its own basket? Maybe that's why you're having a hard time answering the question. Yeah. I'll tell you someone told me once they were addicted to games. Yeah, gaming addiction. Yeah, that's an unpopular addiction. What's that unpopular? What does unpopular mean? Unpopular mean people are more addicted to alcohol or drugs. There's more people There's definitely more people addicted to gaming than drugs or alcohol. I was actually specifically talking about board games, but anyway. Board games? Board games? Yeah, yes. No. No, no, no. I'm not talking about this guy. They have a show. They have a show. to board games? Yes, yes. They have a show called Weird Addictions. My Weird Addiction. That's what I was asking you. What is the strangest one? The most unpopular? You don't know cuz you don't care. Cuz at the end of the day you treat them all the same. In closing, guys, I just want to mention real quick. No, it's totally okay. All right, maybe we'll get rid of that. You like the lightning round, right? All right. Um there is another thing that we do. We're going to save it till the very last second, but um in closing I do want to say the overabundance of love and that message and I think uh Stefan, we have an easy title for our podcast for this episode. Shiva House Rules. No. No, but you like Shiva House Rules. It should be called Why You're Wrong About Everything. You got to piss people off in the title. All right. That's it. We're going to go You know, by the way, that's what we should ask people also. What do you think of a title for this actual podcast now that we're done with it? We're going with that, Sunny, but I want to tell you the reason why I like the Shiva House Rules is because in Shiva houses it's an overabundance of love. And as you said, when you were growing up the community they shunned it. They sort of pushed it away. And at when you were that age, I was of the age of being a mentor for a kid who OD'd mistakenly. And he died. And I know this because it happens. And he didn't want to OD. Like I think that I've learned that from the time of being in this process that most people don't. No. And they they just they they don't know what happens to themselves and before they know it they took too much and they mixed too many things and they're gone. And if they would have had say something more? Someone was talking to me about suicide and OD'ing and I said they're exactly the opposite. And the reason is suicide is I don't have any hope anymore and I don't see any hope. Uh OD'ing is you're still One of the things I'm most jealous of addicts, it's weird, is that they believe there's an answer to the problem. And the rest of normal people like life is hard. There is no answer. We're just doing life. And addicts are like babies in a sense where they like I I believe there's an answer. So, it's they the suicide person is going I don't believe there's an answer. I give up. And the addict is saying I believe there's an answer. I'm going to try another thing and I'm going to try another thing and maybe if I take a little bit more and I There's a lot of hope in it. Yeah. In the actual addiction. What what an interesting perspective. And in closing again, everybody, thank you for joining the None of Your Business podcast. Uh please don't forget to like, comment, and subscribe. Follow along. Thank you, Prime Source, of course, for being behind the scenes and sponsoring everything till now. Um Sunny, this was amazing. We learned a lot. We learned uh and I think we want to have you back. I I I feel like there's so much we didn't even touch upon yet. And uh You know what would be nice? It'd be pretty cool idea is if maybe you can come back on the podcast with someone who went through this program and hear their experience first hand. Hear it from them from the from the horse's mouth. Come on. Sunny's not a fan, but I think that they might be and the world might be. If you guys want to talk to somebody, I can give you somebody. I don't know if you need me on that one. You can just talk to them. All right, we'll see. All right, we'll see. No, I think it'd be better with Sunny. You know, on that note though, there's something that we've been toying around with for a while and we're asking people to recommend us someone that you think would be a good guest on the podcast and uh we're going to eventually follow through in those recommendations. We've been getting a lot. Who would be the one person that you would recommend to come on the None of Your Business podcast? If you I mean if you want in this topic. We as long as it's growth personally or professionally and it's in a positive way and it could be something that we can debate. Those are all the formulas to making our podcast successful. Okay. So, I I knew you were going to ask this because I hear other podcasts, but what about Gedaliah Miller from uh the Kashrus runs Kashrus out I can't believe his name didn't come up till now. That's Yes, amazing. Kashrus for those of you that don't know is educating parents, siblings, loved ones to what it is like to go through this uh process of having someone that's with addiction or dealing with challenges. And kudos to them and Gedaliah for everything that they've done and all the get-togethers and You should tell him that. You know what? You want me to call him? Yes, I want you to call him, get him on the line, put him on speaker on the spot. Tell him you're on a podcast with Michael Greenfield and Ushi Schwartz. And tell him your experience and how it was and ask him if he'd join us. All right. Does this work in here like this? Yeah, as long as you make it louder. He hears it. You know I like it. Stefan's got things running here. Oh yeah. Remember the first time we came together? Yes. Isn't that amazing? We blew up your podcast on my podcast. That was our first claim to fame about podcast. Hello. Gedaliah, you're on the None of Your Business podcast with Michael Greenfield. I don't know if you know him. But I am I'm Is that all right? First of all. One second. I'm hearing you. You're on the You're on the podcast with I'm on a podcast right now with with uh the None of Your Business podcast with Michael and Ushi. What's your last name again, Ushi? Schwartz. Ushi Schwartz and Michael Greenfield. You hear me or no? Hold one second. Let me see. Okay, now I hear They were asking me if I suggesting somebody who would be good for the podcast and I and I suggested you and I should talk to you talking about all the good work with Kashrus and stuff like that. And they said they put me on the spot, told me to call you. So, what do you think? Or maybe they want to speak. Hi, Gedaliah. You're not even listening. You're calling me. I'm just calling you. All right, there's There's Hi, how are you? I I want you to know I've heard your name so many times and um I'm looking forward to joining one of your weekends because I've heard how inspiring and educational it can be. So, my name is Michael Greenfield. I'm here with Ushi Schwartz. We host a podcast called the None of Your Business podcast. And we always ask our guests at the end who would they recommend to also bring value to our discussions. And Sunny picked none other than you and I'm excited about that. What's your feeling? What do you What do you Are you Are you okay to join us one of these days? Yeah, sure. Okay, that was easy. Where do you live, by the way? Borough Park. Borough Park. Okay, very nice. The notorious Borough The notorious Borough My brother was a council member there a bunch of years ago, David Greenfield. You might recognize the name. So, uh so if you want to know what his twin brother looks like, come on up here. All right, looking forward to meeting you. When is When is that podcast? We're going to We're going to schedule it. We'll have Stefan be in touch with you and we're going to schedule it very, very soon. And I just want to say And I just want to say really again, thank you and congratulations for everything you've done till now for the community. You're doing God's work. We really appreciate it. Okay, Gedaliah, we'll talk. Have a good job. Good job. Yes, thank you. Oh, man. All right, and All right, we'll speak. Thank you. All right, like I mentioned, Ushi, that was an amazing, amazing um episode. Uh I learned a lot and we debated and we also bent a little bit, both of us. So, I appreciate your patience and getting to know new people and people that I believe have a lot to offer in this world. And um I want to say that Sunny, you are my mentor. You are a person that I look up to when it comes to all challenges dealing with raising kids and all challenges with addictions. and I can personally attest to the fact that you have helped save lives of people that are close to me, and that are arms length away from me, and I can guarantee every listener that they are two steps away from someone that you affected personally. That's what I feel. For all the things that you've done in this world, from Our Place to The Village to to just all the help that or or one of the Perlmans, I should say, right? Average out Okay, yeah. Out of nine of you, one of you were my roommate in Yeshiva years ago. And uh so you have a fantastic family. I know most of you. Thank you so much for being here on the None of Your Business podcast. Oshi, anything else you'd like to close with? No, I mean, I think a lot has been talked about today, and it's eye-opening because, you know, a lot of us are sleeping on our beds very warmly during the winter, you know, coolly with the air conditioning on in the summer, and minding our own business, and doing our own thing, and going about our lives. And there are people who are right around us. It's our neighbors. It's people in the family that are struggling, that are going through really difficult times. And it warms my heart to just know that there are people out there that are looking out for them. There are people out there that are just self selfless and sacrificing their own quality of life and their own time to lift other people up, and it's amazing. And uh I I commend you. I really do. And it's And again, it's not it's not just you. I know there are others, but you're at the helm. You're one of the leaders in this, and uh you're doing an amazing thing, and may God give you the strength to continue, and to always be able to help other people. Amen. I have to mention, by the way, the time that I reach Sunny the most is at 1:00 in the morning. No, don't listen to that. Don't call me at 1:00 in the morning. A lie. It's a wrap, guys. Thank you very much.