FULL INTERVIEW-Nachum Segal speaks w/ Jonathan Pollard (DEC 2023)

[Music] Thursday morning broadcast from Jerusalem my name is n seagull and this is America's one and only Jewish moments in the morning radio program heard on listeners sponsored Digital radio around the world web at al.com on the aligle network and of course on the Beloved NSN app we're here in Jerusalem and our temporary Studio at the Inbal hotel and we are honored to welcome Jonathan Pard into this studio and uh it's the first time we've ever spoken with him and we're very honored that he has agreed to this what I hope will be a fulllength interview and a conversation no doubt about current events and some of the other events of the last 30 plus years a pleasure to welcome you to J likewise thank you so much thank you mazeltov on your third anniversary of living in the city of Jerusalem am I right it was just a few weeks ago was the third anniversary it's the third and it's also a little over the first anniversary of my my marriage M of so to Rifka right so and um I would also say mazal to on the eth anniversary of you being paroled and I don't know how you looked at that cuz I know you probably wanted to go directly to Israel and not spend time in the United States but it was a significant event you'd have to agree it was it was a significant event but it was leaving a conventional prison with walls and razor wire to go to an unconventional type of living with uh Geographic restrictions and the GPS and all that what was not funny but it was ironic was all of my friends were complaining bitterly when we had the lockdown and I said well welcome to my world I said it's not a problem for me me um bars on the window looked familiar uh had to be in a small space felt familiar you know of course the major difference was I had my wife with me which made all the difference so yeah it was um it was disappointing because freedom is freedom but restrictions does not equal Freedom yeah it was actually scarier for me in New York than it was in prison because in prison I kind of knew everybody I knew who to be afraid from who to avoid I could carry a weapon um but you could carry a weapon meaning a knife actually two knives and you mean that in a legal sense you were able to in an illegal sense everybody did the only way to protect themselves it was the only way to protect yourself so in New York um I couldn't have anything not even a gas gun there was one incident that happened that was very troubling and uh a guy in Manhattan on uh Third Avenue and a guy just stepped out of the shadows and confronted me and threatening me to kill me I looked at him and oh crew cut squared away military wow and and you were alone well no Esther was with me and I looked back at her for a second and there was a guy behind us so I told her get get get behind me close and keep your eye on the guy behind this so uh I realized you know I had to get a little aggressive and in prison what you do is you look at somebody's hands you don't look at their face and you don't listen to what they're saying you watch their hands their hands show us their intent with their intent and so his hands were still down out so I just started pushing him hard and he didn't expect that and I don't think he knew what to do at that point and he was threatening to kill me and kill my wife and you know it was very uncomfortable but uh I saw some cops and I went for them and he disappeared he and his friend disappeared so um there was I'm not going to mention his name but there was a nice Jewish captain that showed up from the local Precinct and uh well it was a hate crime because uh bias crime he was saying some really uh anti-semitic things to me it was clear that he was trying to get me to provoke me to do something so he'd have reason to reason but more importantly if I were involved in any physical altercation I go straight back to finish um 15 more years day for day essentially a violation of your parole correct so what happened was they eventually looked at all the cameras from the banks in that area and they were all blank for that time frame and shockingly enough and I went into the precinct and he was sitting there and he said uh you're not going to believe this I said they're all blank he said uh yeah every one of them so uh Ron durmer um made a formal complaint to the state department over what happened it was clear that it was a uh authorized uh setup it was a provocation and he said Point Blank if it happens again you know they'll there going to be diplomatic consequences and luckily um it didn't happen again it was it was okay so we hear how you survived in New York City how did you survive in prison especially at the very beginning the first few years when you're just learning it sounds like who to avoid how to operate the modus upper run in general I would imagine that in those in the early part it must have been frightening not having that information yet first of all there's um I have an ability to switch your my mindset depending on my environment luckily so my first uh seven years were um 150 M underground um isolation all the entire seven years isolation yeah the entire time and it was uh pretty tough um being by yourself you would think it would be easier than with a bunch of murderers and but but it's the most dangerous time to be with because you have seemingly no hope so when I came there um the warden came out and said look at the sky look at the grass breathe the air the next time you come up you'll be an old old man in a body bag so if you don't talk this was like for people that didn't talk and um I said well God runs the world we'll you know and he said well we'll see okay so I had to become reacquainted with Hashem down there I was off the D before then for various reasons and I realized that I couldn't uh do this myself I needed help if I were going to keep my mouth shut and I certainly wasn't going to commit they suggested if you don't want to talk you can use the bar over the door just hang yourself you know you leave easily and I tried to explain to them that Jews don't commit suicide we uh buy retail instead that's what we're known for that's what we're known for but uh the joke was lost on him him really yeah completely lost on him okay so I had a discussion with AES kind of like uh a ainu with Hashem negotiating for sidon and uh I negotiated with him um and I said if I do these five things and I don't do these five things uh save me and he did and uh seven years later I came up literally into the light everybody else had committed suicide and seven years is significant in Jewish yes it is quite quite so one of the first things I asked was what year is it seriously yeah so I came up and uh he was there the same Warden and sometimes I have a problem with time and place this was the wrong time and the wrong place to finally open my mouth but I had to and I said to him I mean I'm all trusted up like a Thanksgiving turkey and I just looked up at this monster of a guy and I said you see I told you God runs the world and I lost a tooth and he knocked me out but it was the sweetest pain I ever had I really got him mad and uh he charged me with incitement to Riot and this was kind of funny because every Warden I've ever come across and there were many called me in and said how how could you have incited a riot you were outside under how many guns they didn't know trust up um there wasn't any inmate around they just eventually tore it up I mean they said this is ridiculous that was the only uh shot I ever got in 30 years that was the only infraction I got and um it was difficult when I went to the next prison because there were a lot of people who were getting killed there is this already Butner we're talking about Butner yeah North Carolina North Carolina yeah I mean everybody thinks the feds you know are Club fed well it's not that way I don't care what prison you go to it's dangerous even a camp right can be very very very dangerous uh because you don't know who and what you're dealing with so a major problem I had there was um Kos how do I I couldn't get kosher food they didn't have kosher food for me and the commissary was expensive I didn't have very much money I was working and um I had to scramble and there were many times I didn't have anything to eat and I was actually thankful that I didn't have anything to eat why because this is um the surus you go through to maintain your Yiddish kite and I was I was very happy to do that I was very happy so okay eventually 15 years later from your entrance into the Butner yeah I'm still there and uh they get meal Mart common fair and the problem with that was that the uh individuals in the kitchen were opening up the packages and taking the chicken or the meat or the fish out and then retaping it I can't eat it it's trafe at that point so I just kept scrounging for food and um it was okay you know I'll K it's fine do you remember where one of the things about you that we've been uh told that we read about is that you have a phenomenal memory that's what people say about okay I have I have I have to quickly say something um a congressional friend of mine whom I will not mention came under a little appr probium for his scandalous behavior um from New York we might know who you mean um he was a sadik with me I can't tell you how much he did for me for no gain at all because it was the right thing to do and a lot of people you know may not like me saying this but good and bad can coexist sometimes in the same people and um to the extent they're bad they can also also so be good some would say in every person frankly that there's well to an not in this right this extreme right yeah this is a bit extreme right um but in this case he was very helpful uh and successful in getting a document that basically the government admitted that uh they knew I didn't have a photographic mind that was one of their concerns originally was that you had a photographic mind and therefore there's no eliminating the information and there it is in black and white that you don't have that that they knew right that they knew second of all that they knew that I was I didn't even know government makes an evaluation like that yeah well and that the second important thing was that they knew that I was not in the same category as the Soviet spies and so when the question was asked why did you make this and they said well we wanted to make sure we put them away part of the problem was that we didn't know at the time what they were that Al James and Robert Hansen right had accused me of being responsible for all the deaths of the CIA and MI6 agents that had were ongoing in uh the uh Soviet Union so Robert um John lus came to see me and he asked me he said amazing when you were in court and the judge asked you um did you have any regret for all the deaths you caused where was your head I said Tunis well I was the intelligence officer that put together the air strike the Israeli air strike to kill Arafat and we missed him this was in retaliation for a brutal uh terrorist attack in Ln right to Israeli civilians so the planes went overhead demolished his headquarters killed about 90 of his 417 people who had carried out the terrorist attack we missed him so I I answered the judge I said yes I have remorse and he looked at me I said that we didn't get one more so John asked me you know your head was in tun this I said where what where else would it be he said the basement of the Le foro prison in Moscow I said what am I doing there he said uh Ames had just described to the judge exte in his Chambers what happened to General tchikov AKA his code name was tricycle fed feet first into the furnace in the basement of Le foro in front of his family and he said now you're telling the judge you just wish there was one more I said what did I have to do with the Soviet Union I don't I I didn't have anything to do he said well Ames wrapped you up pretty carefully in that right can I just tell you that as all this is going on the public that was concerned about you one of the arguments that we always made was that your sentence was so much harsher than other International spies or those accused of being International spies but now as you give us this perspective we there's one more perspective on that um just to finish this John asked me did you notice how much security was in the courtroom I said it was amazing I never saw so many heavily armed Marshals before he said well there was a reason for that um there were many operations director field Agents from the CIA that were volunteering to come in and kill you in the courtroom but I said I didn't do this and he said well that's irrelevant and when they finally found out uh senator deini who was the then chairman of the Senate intelligence committee had a bipartisan letter that he submitted to Clinton saying you you got the wrong guy let him go well as it was explained to him I was valuable as a bargaining ship right for Clinton right that was that whole issue with the Russians was one thing or the Soviets John said Point Blank I didn't have What's called the Red Stripe clearance or blue stripe clearances to get into the lists of agents and if you want to hear irony of irony the first time I met rafian not the chief of staff but my control officer in Paris he asked me for a list of all the American agents in Israel and I said no thank God I said no that's not what this operation is about so he said ' I'm telling you one of them is going to kill you I said so be it but I'm not going to compromise an American agent and thank God I didn't granted one of them fin a CIA plant in the canet Foreign Affairs and defense committee uh outed me I found out because he took the CIA to court in New York for inadequate retirement he was responsible for catching the notorious spy he didn't like his retirement package somebody who was planted in the Israeli Kessa yes kind of raises the issue of hypocrisy oh okay so that whole Soviet issue was one matter the other matter was that I was unfortunately um very I was integrally involved with Iran Contra from the Israeli side I opened up most of the bank account accounts in Switzerland um they needed a fresh face that no one would know it's it was a softare bank that was used by all of the intelligence agencies so they put me out in the open I mean it was insane to open up these accounts for both Israelis and Americans This is where this whole issue of my Swiss bank account came I didn't have the Swiss bank I opened it up and eventually the tax Court after I was sentenced to life brought this issue up and they all wanted to know who I opened the accounts up for the Americans especially which Americans did you open up an account for let me be very clear about this all of the Americans that I that they unknowingly worked with me on this case uh Iran on Contra were patriots they didn't make any money on this this wasn't a business deal for them they were patriots they were American Patriots and I just didn't feel that I should compromise them I never ratted anybody out and I wasn't going to start doing it there for people that I actually respected right so basically they said okay um we know that this isn't your account because we have it from the bank you couldn't get back into the account you could open it but that was it I said okay and I said no you tell us the names or we're going to say this is your account and I said no I'm not going to talk so they said well for the next half hour before you're reincarceration you're going to be a very rich man because the bank account is yours and I was privileged and honored many many years later after I got out uh on parole to meet two of the people that I basically um had the honor of protecting and will continue to protect even though one of them is now dead this this segment began with me commenting about your memory and I think I've proven my point based on your response frankly but but let me ask you wait wait there's more there's more behind door number two second wait um there are all types of memory a photographic memory I've learned quite a bit since then no no no no wait wait wait wait go um people some people can remember pictures every aspect of a picture some people can remember faces maybe not the names but the faces and there's some people that can remember precisely what they read There are all kinds of photographic memor memories I remember when they accused me in court of having a photographic memory uh I turned to my lawyer and I said in a very loud voice what is my name and what am I doing in here it's a joke I mean I had to joke this is like in court in New York um the last court case I was in where the judge accused me of being the most dangerous man in America I remember that quote you remember that I remember that quote yeah and when I got outside well I started laughing in court so she said you know is there something funny do you want to tell tell me what's so funny I said nothing that I I I I want to repeat because I could be held in contempt well she didn't get it until a few seconds later I was talking about her yeah it was too late so when I got outside um there was a reporter that came up to me and said you know Jonathan the judge just characterized you as the most dangerous man in America how what's your response so I looked at my lawyer uh Elliot low was a great guy and um he said go go ahead just say what you want so I said look the only thing I represent a threat to is a hot pami sandwich that's all and okay that's again you survive by a sense of humor oh I get that but I asked you about your memory cuz I'm curious if you remember the majority or would you even argue most or all of the visits you had in prison I if I told you a random story about a visit would would it would it likely mean something to you or not I have no idea I don't want to were there thousands of people who came to see you hundreds how many no no they were they were restricted on who could come did you see 10 a year 100 a year I mean uh honestly it's it's hard to say maybe you know Esther came all the time um Rabbi PESA Lerner who was I don't know we never would have lived without him he was our connection to you frankly he came all the time um there were some other people that came routinely to see me I mentioned this because a friend of mine went to see you at who actually lives in one of the quote unquote settler communities of Israel I don't know if you remember this visit or not and um the the people that escorted the visitors into your room or the room where you met were generally not friendly to your visitors right right that's how it was described to me they were not people you you couldn't you couldn't smmo with them on the way in however this person uh had carried with him into your visit which was illegal I don't think anybody was allowed to carry anything into a visit but he snuck in a card uh an ID card of his father who served as a an officer in the United States Air Force force and he showed this to the gentleman that escorted him into the room and they thought it was him they didn't think it I don't know if they thought it was him they maybe they did but they instantly he was able he claims he was able to start a conversation with a person because he had a measure of respect for him well most of them were ex-military to begin with meaning those the ones guarding you Etc yeah most of the guards were he's able to strike up a conversation and asks him asks him what is the story here with with Jonathan like what is the what is the eventuality what is the from your point of view what's the assessment and he said and I could put you in touch with this gentleman he said to him we never expected him to live this long we never expected him to be able to endure what has been done to him and based on what you told me about your first seven years and then the likely you know unpleasant experience after that you could understand where he was coming from there were many instances that I thought it was over um when people ask me was it more dangerous than open population or isolation I said no isolation was far with you because you're fighting yourself in your claustrophobia and your fear of being buried alive and all of these things so that was more uncomfortable for me than it was being out in the open with a bunch of murderers um you know yeah I saw a lot of Very Bad Things I saw a lot of good things as well in prison um virtuous things by people you wouldn't expect to exhibit those kinds of qualities character qualities how do you know they don't have an ulterior motive when they're doing something nice for you or it wasn't nice to me there was a man in our unit who was dying of pancreatic cancer that's very painful and he had embarrassed the prison system by breaking out a virtually every prison they put him in without harming anybody so yeah he robbed a bank with the warden's car and parked the car you know they arrested the warden they he was pretty funny guy but he was dying in great pain they wouldn't give him any painkillers so one night you know he was begging for people to kill him just to put him he didn't have enough strength to do it so I came and sat down next to him I held his hand and I said um look you have to live it's very important that you live another day and he said why I said because it's another day to thank God to bless God and he looked at me like I was from Mars and all of a sudden this other guy who had done almost 40 years in prison drug charge wouldn't talk ripped a pain patch off his arm he was dying of cancer vicadin patch and it leaves if you rip it off it leaves in a a blue Mark and that's 5 Years Day for day and he was getting out in two weeks to go home to die with the remnants of his family in his own house and we all looked at him and he said I said what did you do you're going you you're going home you know by our standards an honest man you you kept your mouth shut you didn't cause anybody any any harm he said I can't after I heard what you said um he said I'm going to die soon and I have to have one good thing I can tell God that I did to make up for this horrible life alleviating that man's pain correct so he put the pain patch on and okay within an hour he was arrested and ratted him out somebody ratted him out so the next day almost everybody body on the compound black white hispanic Asian was lining up in the um internal security office to plead for this guy don't charge him let him go home I'd never seen anything like that before so when I came in and sat down the guy looked at me and said what do you you don't talk to us what are you doing here and I explained it and he said you see that shredded paper on the floor I said yeah he said that's the charge I can't in good faith charge this guy with what he did he said I've never seen it before so when he left about two weeks later everybody came out basically to say goodbye which if you knew prison Pol racial politics that doesn't happen but for this one moment of decency and altruism and real compassion everybody came out so that's the good thing I don't want to go into the bad things because I'll let your imagination take care of that but this ISS this incident um is what I like to take away from my with my prison experience did you knew that did you know beforehand that you had the fortitude to survive those 30 years I I I say that in the context of today we were discussing off the air earlier how a lot of people who are in these very sensitive situations right now especially here in Israel IDF soldiers hostage families Etc they are learning something about themselves that they probably did not know in advance did you know going in that you could that you had What It Takes of course not no nobody does um that's why when that door shut and I'm in a small room 150 meters underground nothing to read nothing to write no one to see I mean you're buried alive and there's only two ways out and one of which well both of which you can't do um that's when you either give into despair or you reach for a higher power that's beyond you you know there's an old statement and I didn't understand it until I got out of that whole that boore that um a man who had gone through it's an apocryphal story but a man who had gone through terrible ordeals um had a talk with God he said that you know sometimes when I was walking along the beach I only saw my own Footprints and God answered him by saying no that's when I was carrying you well that's how you felt yeah yeah what's it like walking in the streets of Jerusalem today what is that feeling like what would you how would you describe it to someone I'm Reborn reborn in a very Jewish sense in a very very Jewish sense I mean this is my reward to be a free person in our own land were you worried you'd never be part of that reward or see that reward or experience that reward did I think I would well look at one point John KY proposed a deal as Secretary of State we're talking about what year now I honestly can't remember but when when he was uh Secretary of State and what he did was proposed that um I would be released in exchange for some horrible terrorists here right by the way one of dozens of deals that we've read about in advance of this conversation and there were dozens and dozens that were very close and dozens that a lot of people took credit for that I don't know if you you would give them the same I I mean I was packed out ready to go many times many many times more than just the Clinton n many many times the fact the first person that um secured my release was um Yak Rabin everything was arranged after the uh signing of the Jordanian peace treaty in the Rose Garden I was to come home he arranged it and he was assassinated and when Shimon Perez as Ros as the Prime Minister came to Clinton and said you know I would like Jonathan to come home now Clinton's answer was that deal was with your predecessor so I want you to release four or 500 Palestinian terrorist so he was still willing to do it but bu the buses were blowing up in and perz said I can't do that that's impossible and Clinton said that's the deal this is mid90s you're a victim of circumstance of what's going on here in Israel at that time and um okay so so Carrie you were saying pardon Carri you were talking about the car yeah see my memory Carrie I overestimated you I apolog thank you what Bo what am I doing here um and but that was stockdale's quote by the way Admiral Stockdale was the one with oh that was horrible during that vice president they let you watch am I and what am I doing here they let you watch what happens is you go to the officer and you want to talk to him about something and you keep looking at the TV there tricks you learn about things like this all right so go ahead so um the the catch was I would never be allowed to go home youd stay in the United States even if I'm I died the body has to stay in uh the US the US so BB in the cabinet meeting put it to Esther alom um you have to bring this deal to Jonathan and whatever he agrees with okay we'll we'll abide by well some people might say that it's unethical to bring an offer like that to a man in my position at the time who had no hope at all of getting out okay but BB knew me well enough it wasn't a risk he was safe all right so Esther came Alam and she described this whole situation to me and she said before you answer I want you to know something that whether you decide to stay in prison here or take the deal and come out never to return to Isel I will stay with you in the midar that's why that quote from talim I put over her grave I knew you in your youth when you were in the midbar so I looked at her and I said um okay I'll give you my answer no on the spot you said no she said look I need a little bit longer answer I'm I have to more explanation I have to brief the cabinet so I said okay hell no that was your uh the long version yeah so she said look you're supposedly an educated person give me an educated answer that doesn't make me look like an idiot when I go back so I said okay there are three reasons why I can't accept this one it devalues the lives of the victims second of all it lowers deterence because they look at what's happening Nows lower the ter right the third reason is it would cause immeasurable pain to the victim's family amilies that I didn't have the strength to just honor their corbane so I said for those three reasons I C I have to say no so she looked at me and she said that's a very good answer but it's not the Jewish answer she was my Mo Esther So I listened she studied with Rob Emanuel in Canada um most rabbis I know who knew her said that if uh rabant was ever open the Orthodox rabet was ever open to women she would probably be the first one given SM so I said okay what's the Jewish answer and she said as Jews we live for Al those are our three principles that we organize our life around as nationalist Jews Al is a little different but these are as a nationalist Jew this is what we live for and she said if you decided to stay in the midbar you would be making the same mistake that the meraglim made when they cursed the land in order to maintain their C in the midbar and she said we've been paying for that ever since so she said when you go before KES however long you have to live but when you go before him he doesn't have to ask you why did you forsake my land that I gave to your you you people why she said you won't have to answer that so she said you have two choices on how to come home you can come home an old man in a body bag and be buried in Kess is or she said you can come home as an old man and kiss the ground those are your two choices and I said well can I come home as a slightly younger man you know say you know go to uh Mella in Inon and uh you know thank God for saving me and she said no those are your choices and I said fine put my name on it that's who and what she was and um so I had some cabinet members tried to ask me directly at the time um can't you be a little bit more accommodating flexible flexible yeah and I I'm sorry I mean I see Life in black and white especially here when when Esther was dying literally and I was holding her counting her breaths until there weren't anymore she said take my mask off I was in the covid ICU I was the first and only one that was allowed in um I had to I was in an army chemical warfare suit and the head nurse said you can't leave here for 72 hours or 80 however long she's alive you can't live if you have to go to the bathroom you do it in this suit you can't take it off so all right I was I God gave me 72 hours with her to take care of her at the end thank thank God it was a mad house in there of people screaming for their mothers their wives their children I mean it was a level of hell I didn't even Dante wouldn't have even recognized so she I took her mask off and she said take your mask off take it off and I had nothing at that moment left to live for so prob took my whole hood off and she said listen to me when I'm gone they're coming for you and I knew who she meant the politicians and she she was the gatekeeper so she said um what is politics now this woman is dying she has minutes to live and this is what she's talking about to me what is politics and I said sweetheart you're not going to live long enough for me to give you the full academic definition she laughed kind of mirthlessly and she said politics is the art of compromise what are you willing to compromise Mahar tamella tooa harab um Kev Rael Kev ysep Kut Shabbat what are you willing to compromise and I said to her nothing I won't compromise anything and she said remember that don't ever compromise wow and then she went downhill wow seconds after that she went downhill so yet another explanation for us about some of the positions you take that are hard Ironclad and you simply have no desire to to move in One Direction or the other I will not I will not be moved I know what's right if I have a question I go ask dor from rabbis that I deep respect pesak learner being one of well for a good reason for a very good reason um if we and again remember I'm growing up through the whole Pard situation right I'm now 60 you or 69 you're 69 be 70 soon and you imagine I was probably around 20 25 years old when all this becomes known to the public and Pard becomes an issue in the Jewish world and um every single step of the way we are shown that everyone government CIA FBI I'm throwing around organizations I don't know exactly what they do in your regard but you know we're convinced that they're going to use every opportunity to keep you incarcerated to give you a life sentence to be completely unfair on every step of the way compared to other sentences I mean these are the argu you heard you heard all these arguments how is it possible I ask you then that they didn't figure out a way to keep you in after 30 years they couldn't find a way to actually prove some small some violation in the 30 years you're in the system that would have kept all these guys whether it's weinbergers or bitsky all all of them in the state department happy that you're still in jail at one point excuse me sir at one point Edward black the noted historian interviewed Weinberger on the occasion of his memo is being published and Weinberger Ed asked him about my case why was lift the mic drop sorry yeah why wasn't my name mentioned in his Memoirs so he said well it was because the poet Affair was a minor matter made more important to Casper Weinberg yeah he said this made more important than it was so Ed you know like in the Jewish World We felt it was the number one thing on his list yeah no so Ed said why I mean this is contrary to what you wrote the judge and he said uh you know powers above me made that decision like who's above him the president he he made it up but he's again passing the buck so he died shortly that after that interview so we went to the um ethics division of the justice department and said you know come on it's clear that he purged himself a second time first was Iran Contra now this and they their attitude was water under the bridge they didn't want to touch it there were many instances where things that were Char alleged that I had done were were disproven conclusively even tenant the then head of the CIA the director who had no love for me admitted that um there was no evidence that any of the information that I had passed to Israel had been compromised to anybody else wow okay that's kind of important the fact that here's this thing nobody reads my indictment if you read my indictment it they don't know what you're accused of or what I'm accused of it says in black and white I acted without intent to harm the United States wow you know intent is very important in the law so here it's the government saying that so when I finally after 20 years got my a document that showed exactly what harm I had done it took me 20 years to get it and I understood why when I saw it what did the government actually say that I that we didn't know about well they had to be pretty accurate for the judge right so what they said was I angered our Arab allies in the Middle East by in their estimating by making Israel too strong Ali and that the information that I did give Israel while it was supposed to have been given right resulted in the United States is losing negotiating Advantage okay I'm sorry that's not the stuff of the most dangerous man in in the United States right so back to my question can we find something wrong that happened in those 30 years or not except except again remember God runs the world so what ha what actually happened the J the jpa the deal with Iran there were a group group of senators that were meeting with um an individual from the White House who didn't want to sign on to all of this so this guy came to meet them what did he talk about he said the president has decided that Pard would be on parole oh wow it completely deflected everything why how did this happened what you know what happened what happened was the announcement of my eventual release on parole was accompanied by a barrage of anti-israel statements that I was the worst spy had done immense damage that it was typical of the israelies of what they we were we're so kind to them we give them everything and look they put a spy in our midst and look at the damage that he's I mean it was all over again recycled so it was an attempt and we gotten this later from confirmed by people in the government that it was an effort by the Obama White House to Blacken Israel by using me and to keep you in prison essentially no no they were going to release me but they wanted me out so that they could basically point to me they could get reporters to come near me and ask me provocative questions and etc etc but if you look at the the news surrounding the report of my release it's all negative yeah I mean they wanted to paint that picture specifically they wanted but it wasn't of me Israel it was of Israel and uh so it was actually a Ness it's like balam and balak they came to curse Israel and but you are telling me that it was a miracle you're telling me that God runs the world and that I sort of have a good a good premise here that that the way things were going the prior 30 years they I wasn't getting up right they were going to think of that's why people like me the regular bals in America were shocked that you were parole the first parole hearing I went to and I had to go I was I was in 2015 or much earlier it was about a year before the end of 2014 it was a disaster I mean they were so negative towards me and so offensive and you left thinking I there's no way right in fact it one point the head of the National Security director of the justice department was just absolutely blackening me we had submitted documentation showing that I had certain uh projects that I'd been working on in prison that would benefit the economy of the United States and he didn't care I mean he was so I finally said can I say something it's on the TV and Elliot low my lawyer said Jonathan no profanity okay I thought it was going to say no jokes no this is not prison okay I mean this is not a prison conversation please I said it's okay I looked at the guy and I said you know what you hate more me more than you love the United States and he came up I he I had the right response I mean he came up out of his seat screaming and yelling I was Mo very gratified so the second time we went for parole I just thought this is going to be a Repeat Performance and next thing I know it's directly opposite they're talking about my release and that I have to wear GPS and this and that and I looked at Elliot he was completely uh flumix he said where did this come from and that's why you're saying bam like because God puts the because it's the same people who just a few months before called me everything but a white man that's a prison joke but by the way feel you don't have to I'm like Rodney Dangerfield I'm dying up here by the way I went to dangerfields Once stupidly and I sat in the front row this was many many years ago before I got arrested and for some reason he picked on me imagine that and um okay he he was a nice guy afterwards I got a free water down drink you know that was I said to him you know if I wanted bottled water I would have I would have asked for it so he smelled it he said oh my God he said he went and got me a real drink um nice guy nice guy said some horrible things to me if I really gave a hell about myself I would have been really insulted he you see he started preparing you for started preparing me for for prison yeah you're nothing yeah I'm nothing um so it was a miracle that they they let me out and it was a miracle there was another miracle that happened just before um we came to the time where they had to make a decision whether my parole was over and I could go home right five years yeah or or what and we were down to hours where they had to make a decision or else I would have to stay in and that decision would be made by the the succeeding administration of Joe Biden and we found out that uh they wanted to keep me in prison oh so wait a second with another indictment there why I never talked they wanted me to talk and remember that issue and I'm going to get back to this so I needed a passport to get out and I said well I have an Israeli passport and he said no as a dual National you became an isra right okay I need an American passport State Department said yeah it'll take about N9 months it was Co at another two months yeah so um the reason I'm interrupting you is because the rumor is that Donald Trump gets some credit here no not true no uh the people that that first of all Trump never objected to it so let's right give him credit for that let's put that on the table he never objected to it um number one number two uh his chief of staff um who's now under under the gun in Georgia oh yeah I I can never see I can never both of us now are drawing a anybody want to volunteer name here but but but both he and his wife were in the White House and um Mark um say itow meadows Meadows Meadows okay I had the first name I had the first name I get some partial credit for that like that um he I consider to be an honest um God-fearing Christian I I'd never really run into one before but he was one he and his wife and I'm sorry for the trouble he's in now misplaced misguided loyalty if he had I I asked him to stay as a congressman from North Carolina and he said I can control him I said anytime you anybody has to say I can can control the president of the United States you better rethink that they're fooling themselves okay so it was Mark Meadows wow Ron durmer Ron durmer um and Miriam and Sheldon adelon of course Ester PES they all played roles in this you don't mention BB and you don't mention Trump these are the four that you give the credit those were the four so the Night Before Christmas and it was really loud in the house because we were living on East 49th it was really loud um what R me know we're going to go overtime go ahead I'm sorry uh we got a call I got a call from Ron durmer and he said you got to get across to Hudson yards on the other side of Manhattan and I'm looking it's gridlock why he said there's a passport waiting for you I said how did this happen he said uh Pompeo another name then we have to give credit to he said Mike Pompeo called the passport office and said this guy is coming in I don't care what information he gives you wow you put it down in the passport and you get it done so we walked out Esther and I walked outside there some good people out there and this the um car came in there's a Jamaican roll down the window and pot smoke just poured out and I said can you get me to the Hudson yards oh yeah I'm on the immigration office he knew that I said I got 20 minutes I gave I showed him a $100 bill and I said you get to party tonight if you me there he did oneway Streets sidewalks you figured it's not the most dangerous stuff you could a motivation look this guy was going to party that night one way or the other so 20 minutes later maybe a half hour later we walked out of the building and I had a brand new passport wow and so the next day uh Miriam sent a beautiful car for us and we got there we took all our stuff on the airplane because we were coming into lockdown into B so we brought food and everything and we got on the plane there's no security anywhere no Customs no police the whole place was empty the jet still had its Motors running so we got on and uh took off and everybody was clapping and I said everybody means how many people are on that plane oh 10 about and um until we crossed the international line I was expecting Jets to come up and turn us around the funny thing that happened when we landed BB had promised Trump in writing there would be no publicity right okay everybody was there right so he's standing at the bottom of the staircase and I turned to Esther and I said well I'll tell you exactly what I said I said Jesus Christ I said the Prime Minister BB is out there what am I supposed to say and she leaned back and she said I'm retired that's it she said you're on your own you're on your own so as we were leaving the airplane well one of the co-pilots they had double crew because they had to leave ran down and he's yelling something at BBE pointing at the airplane BB's laughing and he's yelling he didn't know who he was he thought he was grounds keeper a groundsman he was yelling at him to get on the airplane and get the luggage off oh my gosh and BB is standing there laughing and finally the co-pilot said do you understand English and he put his hands on BB and that's when the security came they set him straight he ran up the stairs and locked himself in the bathroom in the back of the airplane blame so as we left the pilot was an old guy looked at me and he said you know who are you you have no idea who I was and uh I used a line that I from a hero of mine I said I'm just an old Jew returning to his homeland and he looks at me and he said you're not my or Lancey I said you're right you're right well barem you're not because lansi had a much different fi um my my Lansky in my books was a Jewish hero I'm sorry agreed but you'd also agree he was betrayed by the state of Israel yes because they sent him back correct I felt um I understood how he felt when they sent him back I it was the most disgusting thing after everything he did for Israel in 1948 every people will be amazed if they heard the masus neish that this guy had for for AEL at that time and and what did they do extr they extradited yeah so um everything there were so many opportunities that could have situations that could have aside from the BB greeting there was also there were some celebrations am I right or not not saying that you planned the celebrations but were you ever you went straight into beud straight into uh and again it was very familiar to me locked down bar how ironic you get to Israel You're lock and when I finally you know I'm not 4 hours here I'm tired and the door knocks open up the door someone I know in the prime minister's office he just walks in make yourself at home so I shut the door and Esther came out and she looked at me and she screamed at me she said you're in your underwear and I I'm a typical male I just said but they're clean I mean what do you want for me they're clean you know I I have to she threw a coat on me and he said um I'm coming from the RO I have an offer um number five on the list on the list so I looked at Esther and you know she was making coffee and I said not acceptable so he said I've given powers to negotiate I said Okay I want to be number one just wait so he said Jonathan you can't be that's BB's BB's slot I said that's what I want you want me it's I want to be number one he said look we're making an honest offer to you we haven't made this offer to anyone else this is a golden opportunity for you to re to integrate into the you know Halls of power you know to make up for the 30 years that you you know so I looked at him and I said you know for as long as I've known you and it's been a long time you've never lied to me until right now what do you mean I said I'm the third person you offered this poison chalice to this morning you knew this for a fact so he said how do you know that I said well I just got it confirmed you just guessed it I said that's the oldest interrogation trick in the world I already been called by somebody and to prepare myself that that he's coming and he's already been to two other people wouldn't that have been a terrible slap in the face of the United States and Trump if you'd be member of of government or at that particular time you know what if Trump had been president no it it would have been okay um because I would have said the right things you know thank you my life he was more concerned while was an off my life is turned around I thank you I'm I'm going to be the best you know friend that the United States ever had here you know God for whatever whatever so it it could have been finessed um so coming into beud here into it was uh I finally came out of it and uh the first thing I wanted to do was just walk down a Jaffa Street and there was nobody there it was kind of like a post-apocalyptic type dystopian environment there was except for the cats there was just nobody there was nobody and you know coming out of New York where we went kind of through the same thing you know it was not as shocking as it could have been but um uh amazing that you've spent this entire hour with us I still have three personal matters I'd like to address with you if I may absolutely um are you aware of the fact and I'm sort of being uh rhetorical with this because I can't imagine the answer is no are you aware of the fact that hundreds of thousands if not millions of Jews prayed for your release in the mrai AA mrai where I've zaved for the last 30 years or at least from when I moved into Lower Manhattan until Co every Shabbat we said a mish I said it very often I was the leader very often we set a mish for you and and I must add this cuz you must hear this when you were released we refused to stop saying the Mish because your wish was not to be released your wish was to be bayat correct here in Israel when you finally got to Israel we declared in the synagogue this custom is now over um let me answer this or respond to this with the story about Esther people would come up to her here and apologize for not doing more to help me get out and she would look at them and she said um ask them have you doed have you said f for him um yes she said well Hashem has a CO Shel for yonathan in sham and when that Co is filled he will come home so thank you for helping adding to it to to add to that and I want to take this opportunity to thank both you and everybody else who do for me but you have to understand that I have a tremendous amount of responsibility now to live up to this kind of AAS Isel by what I do here it's not enough to just come out you people just don't come out like this and do nothing you actually have to do something Tas you have to do something practical to say thank you and I'm I'm trying to do that now with some of my business projects that will benefit Israel but um come the election the new elections again um my obligation to Esther responsibilities to her her dying advice to me and to everybody who doed for my release is not to compromise not to bend I want people to feel good about the fact that they helped helped God release me so and by the way people may be surprised I didn't focus more in this conversation about what's happening today but this policy of yours I think gives everyone a perspective of what you think of today's situation and how how bending or being flexible and listening to the Americans can only be detrimental to the state of Israel corre absolutely so I think people understand that yeah we're a nation that dwells apart and we can take care of ourselves we have a good army as long as we remain faithful to a you would recommend not taking a penny of aid from the United States I would assume ever ever right it's like giving drugs to somebody it's it's you are now under their control yeah well you're you're like dependent right um You were involved this is the second thing I want to tell you you were involved in one of the one of the most interesting stories of my career without you even knowing we were scheduled to come visit you yes um you were visited by a I think it was a congressional de it was so long ago I honestly don't another but it was I think it was a Congressional Delegation some local elected officials and they invited me along to come to the uh to the visit and of course I was so thrilled that I would have this opportunity to come and speak to you the night now you have to remember something I don't know if you ever heard of me before today frankly but you have to oh have you thank you okay what do you think thank you we answered that question so so the the I I know who you are thank you very you're George Soros aren't you you met you met some of my prot you met some of my prot govern Shonda so I'm in this small radio station College radio station and trying to make believe that I'm a real journalist you know doing this morning show for the Jewish World etc etc and uh and you know and at the same time I'm invited to come visit you the night before I'll never forget this phone call my house no cell phones I will never forget this phone call and the night before one of the elected officials calls me and says the FBI I think they said FBI I don't know which organization would be responsible for it has nicked your participation in this trip to Jonathan PA I said why you're a journalist and this I said you know I've been fighting my entire life be taken as a serious Journal all of a sudden now I'm a serious journalist it's not not everybody that that dumps onu uh is a bad person and that was a good thing that happened because um yes it validated the fact that you were a journalist I'm being polite right now thank you my mother thanks you now well you're not a doctor or a plumber or a lawyer that that was actually it was a doctor lawyer and plumber that's what my mother said to me said you have three options in this country plumber may be first but plumber now a plumber would be first no I mean to interview with a journalist what happened eventually was that the journalist and I had to sign a document that said that the government would retain ownership of the interview if it were an electronic interview right and that they would apportion out what they deemed to be appropriate to the journalist and that they were not responsible for any here it comes misuse of the interview so I asked Alan dtz I said what what does that mean he said they're going to cut and paste right so the question that you'll be asked do you consider yourself a traitor they'll figure out where you said yes and they'll just edit it in that's what they he said you can't do this it's against your first amendment rights so um okay so so there was a there was a big difference when you met with a journalist or with a sympathetic elected official right it was because they knew that the journalist conversation would become somehow part of the public record so to speak and they wanted to make sure to stop correct correct to stop the the information that you wanted to go out well they knew I wasn't going to say anything I shouldn't but and I would assume there are other people in the room as this is happening right I would assume look the whole thing broke when I had a journalist come to see me and he was asking me a whole bunch of questions about the sensitivity of the information and everything else and the the monitors were looking waiting looking at me like how am I going to answer this because they were ready to come down on me for violating whatever I thought about it and I said um look you understand that I was not indicted for intent to harm you understand that yes that's black and white and you understand that there is some information that is so sensitive that if compromised to anybody even the closest of friends could inflict incalculable damage on the National Security would you agree with that even if my intent were not to harm the United States there is certain information that is so potentially damaging which if compromised um would justify the imposition of a charge an indictment of intentional harm intent to harm he listened and he said yes okay I understand that so I said so what is your conclusion by the fact that I was never charged with intent to harm and he looked at the monitors and he looked back he said they're bsing I said Thank you and I looked at the Monitor and he was trying to figure out some way of claiming that I violated security or whatever and I couldn't he I mean he couldn't it's just common logic so okay you're a journalist now you get to wear long pants it's fine um you're you're no longer a b thank you for the approbation and finally uh for me I save the best for last I I never thought in my life i' I'd be able to thank thank you for this face to face personally you um you were asked to speak at shiffer Hoffman's funeral correct by the way she said paranoid Jews live longer agree or disagree oh I I should live at least to 120 then I mean even paranoid Jews have real enemies I can't remember who said that but it may have been her as may have may been the continuation of her Theory may have been her you spoke you spoke at her funeral at the levah yeah the next funeral after hers was for my dear friend mayor weard and our good friend Carney walked up to you and she said the person we're about to bury had a strong connection to you I don't remember the exact word she used when she introduced it and you said what do you mean so she said that he meaning mayor my closest friend who we lost unfortunately a couple of years ago suddenly mayor had 15 seconds with President Bill Clinton to say say to him ask him whatever he wanted as many people do you go to a meeting with the president and everyone has a chance to walk by him shake his hand and say something right I Met George Bush what did I say to him I said thank you for what you do for Israel and the Jewish people was it the right thing to do I don't know but that's what came to my mind that I said it okay mayor wearden Carney says to you we have this on video by the way Carney says to yigal was right there he was right next to you when this happened waiting for the funeral to start Carney says to you that mayor our dear friend mayor wiard who by the way had a an apartment right here on atinsky he he saw President Clinton for 15 seconds and used the opportunity to ask him to do everything in his power to free Jonathan Pard you said to Carney in response I hope that stands in good measure in Shayan I wish our our leaders had the kind of Courage as had the kind of Courage as mayor had you said this with his name every time a Jew show this is you speaking every time a Jew shows no fear and stands up for his brothers and sisters that's Aus you told a story then to her from kevio with a soldier that you were with at kevio and that based on that episode you said this is how we know we're going to win correct because of the akas and unity which by the way if there is any positive byproduct of this war you'd have to agree I'm on record of saying that that if there is a silver lining to this otherwise black event um it's that people now are together and their eyes are open you said you continued we know the expression the slogan you in our tradition you save one life you save a world and then you concluded by saying to her and I felt you said this to all of us who were his friends and I would have been there if not for covid you are very privileged and lucky to know him can't thank you enough for that um from one Jew to another yeah and he spends the 15 seconds concerned about you um we H if we don't if you cannot feel the pain of your brother or sister as if it's your own if you can't feel the pain of the land as is violated by our enemies and if you can't feel the fear of our children when they have 15 seconds or 20 seconds to run to a bomb shelter to escape a rocket then I really question your lineage you have to be willing willing to put your life on the line if necessary for your brothers and sisters you have to we don't live for the present we live for shamai and so when you run across people like this you have to say hasem there was somebody that stood up there was somebody that was star or yid there was somebody that wouldn't bend that that defended our good name and our people which he did the there are lots of good Jews that I've come to know yourself included that I think are going to have to ask some very hard questions of themselves over the coming days weeks and months and what is that question that question is is it the right time now to come home people tell me and I got this all the time in New York we're waiting for mosiah and Esther Al Shalom gave me the appropriate response to people like that and what is it maybe he's waiting for us and coming home now I think is imperative the galut especially in America was good for a while it was okay but it's you're an American from Texas you got it yeah but um y got to come home now here yall got to come home that's what they say in gal yeah yall yall have to come home now actually it's I hate to keep telling funny stories it wrecks the whole thing my wife Rifka comes from Birmingham I said Alabama and she said no England you nobody nobody comes from Birmingham Alabama I mean British friends of mine from London or Manchester where okay and she has a very peculiar accent and when she gets on a roll I really I honestly I which is good for a husband yeah sometimes I say yes yes dear and that's it you know I don't know what she's asking so I said to her look let me explain how I used to talk and it's taken me 40 years almost to lose the accent so I went through it and she just looked at me and said my Lord you've lost about a hundred I Q points in my life that's hilarious yeah all right come to Texas and you'll see how much lower it can be um but just in conclusion is is seriousness um it's time to come home when this kind of brutal anti-Semitism is now mainstream and is not being opposed um by anybody the police um government acemia no nobody it's like accepted it's mainstream that's when you know you know you don't want to wait until it's crystal clear right if we know anything from Jewish history if we know anything from Jewish history it's that the the trials and tribulations of our past in galut are embedded in our genes even as estranged as we might be from Judaism and from the am it's still there the pin yid still has that and you have to listen to it because it may mean your life it may mean your life so learn from history and pack up rationally carefully slowly and come home this is home where they may not like like you but it won't be because you're Jewish Jonathan par I can't thank you enough my pleasure our brothers and sisters in Israel we are with you this is America's one and only Jewish moments in the morning radio program heard on listeners sponsored Digital radio around the world web at al.com on the networking of course on the Beloved NSN app my thanks to Jonathan Pard my thanks to all of you plenty coming up here we're a little bit behind schedule but we'll catch up at some point plenty coming up on a Thursday as we always say no need to touch that do when you're listening to the NSN Network tomorrow morning plenty more including our weekly update and of course Rob by uden and Harry Rothenberg on pares Vos and tomorrow is a fast day keep that in mind we'll be in Jerusalem literally broadcasting until chabas begins make sure to be tuned in have a fabulous Thursday till tomorrow a SE reminding you remember the past live the present and Trust the [Music] future thank you you had some inspiring [Music] messages that what you went straight I apologize I just