Nachum Segal and Rabbi Chaim Jachter Explore Chiddush Levanah

JM in the AM on a Thursday. I always like to joke that Rab Haim Jackar and I know each other longer than either of us cares to admit. He is he is in our studio. He's written like 20 books or so and the the latest one I have enjoyed immensely. Rabbi Jack, there's of course Rabbi of Share Oro the Sparta Congregation of Tene. He is a uh he's a TABC is a head of the Tanakh department and as a teacher I think for 30 years. Is it 30 at this point? >> Mazal on that. >> Thank you. >> What an accomplishment. >> And teaching is a an exhausting job. >> And yet you're you're a teacher and a rabbi and of course you serve on the basin uh in Elizabeth, New Jersey. And uh it is a pleasure to welcome you back to JM and the AM. >> It's great to be here. >> Appreciate that. It sounded like this book came out of nowhere. Like someone, I don't know, challenged you to write it and within weeks it was written. Does that make sense? >> That's right. >> That's what happened. Huh? >> I I can't believe it myself. I I don't know how it happened. >> Yeah. I'm sorry. >> It just came out. It just flowed. It was a Camky family made a bar mitzvah a few weeks ago and they were so uh they were excited about the bar mitzvah. Jake really boy loves Kittish Savana and I love Kdish Savannah and they asked me uh >> one can love Kdesh Lavana. >> I love Kdish Lavana. >> So those so those of us who are frustrated when Saturday night Mariv is extended or or when the rush to the phone is delayed because of Keshada, you you would have a thing or two to say to us, huh? Well, people uh on Moz Tishab or Mozam Kipper. >> Yeah. You want to eat? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We love uh we I'm going to say we I'm going to say we love Keshan. I know in Arul in Tex Rob people we we love we love uh Keshan. People are very upset when it's cloudy and we can't say it. >> I'm trying to think mutabis was cloudy, right? I don't think we were we weren't able to say it. >> Right. weren't able to say it. And and the and one of the reasons that that I timed this conversation as I indicated to you the way I did is because the deadline for Kdesh Lavana for this month for the month of Son is this Shabas. So tonight in theory if one doesn't want to right I'm trying to think what the actual deadline is. Give me a second. The actual deadline for Kdesh Leavona is uh is mate Shabas. One could say it in fact this coming Saturday night. Uh but if you don't want to risk it weather-wise etc then one should try to say it tonight because again absolutely >> right because again the the opportunities have been limited and and the good example is obviously muis uh if someone came from outer space and became somewhat familiar with our tradition and and had never heard of kdesh lavana in a sentence or two how would you tell them what kdish lavana is >> celebrating the greatness of hashem's works and celebrating the greatness of the Jewish people >> that's what it is yes blessing ing the moon does the two things you just said. >> Well, you're not blessing the moon. You're blessing Hashem. >> Correct. But making a bra in the presence of a full moon or or presence of a visible moon does the two things you just said. >> Absolutely. It's wondrous. You ever think about this? Did you ever hear of an engineering project that was made thousands of years ago and is still functioning, >> right? >> It's unbelievable. >> And giving off the same amount of light and everything works like clockwork. where works like that. >> How did he do that? >> Quite an accomplishment. >> It's unbelievable. He's marveling on on on creation. >> You know, there are, by the way, in all seriousness, I and I I sort of said this earlier in the show, it is unbelievable that one could put together over 20 chapters of different topics just on Keshana. It's unbelievable. and and and there and I have so many questions because there are things that have come up over the years that I've always been curious about or wanted to get the opinion of someone like yourself about. You know what? What? One of the primary discussion I hope I'm right about this. The primary discussion in my neighborhood regarding Kdesh Lavana is you ready for this. Should one, as Rabbi Feinstein would say, say keshana the moment you can, or as others might contend, wait till after the seventh of the month, wait till m shabas, start the week with a mitzvah, you know, after the verbal and estray, etc., etc. And that I I would suspect is one of the great discussions, right? >> 100%. Okay, let's let's let's put a little perspective on that. So, first of all, if I can backtrack, I'm going to come back to where Moshe Feinstein was coming from, what his tradition was. But I want to emphasize one thing. We're praising Hashem >> for the wondrous world that he made that it that he put into motion so long ago and it still works so perfectly. It's it's amazing. But more than that, what's perhaps is even more amazing than his creation are the Jewish people. Wax and we looks like we're out. Looks like we're gone and and we come back. It's unbelievable. You remember the m No, none of us forget the moon on October 7th. >> What a devastation. But we've come back so much stronger and we're going to be stronger and stronger and stronger. And that's what the moon symbolizes, the growing moon. That growing moon. >> And by the way, October 7th, the moon is already waning in the month of Tish. >> That's right. >> Second half of the month. >> That's right. >> In fact, there's some who don't get married in the second half of the month. We could take this and there's a million different things based on the moon. And isn't it interesting that you talk about the resilience of the Jewish people >> and you're comparing it to the moon and the way it operates and that's how we became a Jewish people was all about the moon% because it symbolizes who we are. That's why it was our first mitzvah mit as our first our first mitzvah of people. You are like this. You look like you were out done as slaves in mit you're going to come back symbol of nationhood is the moon. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's why some people have a custom they dance after uh after right. Yeah. Well, you've given me a new perspective Jack. >> Oh my goodness. >> And by the way, I don't like to incriminate myself. I'm not as bad as I said. I was just representing a group of people that you know are in a rush when it comes to Saturday night. >> So now back to the timing. Would one and I know that you can't say it too early, right? If the mol if the birth of the moon so to speak is uh at a certain time you have to wait at least a minimum of what 72 hours we're saying. So there's that. Then the you know the um once those three days have passed should one say it immediately wait till after the seventh day or wait till Saturday night and again beginning of the week. What do you say about that? >> Okay so Ravosha Feinstein. So you're you're a lower east side. So Ravosa Feinstein is synonymous with a lower east side. What's Ravosha Feinstein? Remember where he came from? From Lithuania. He's from the villagon's tradition. The villagon felt that you should wait. >> No, don't wait. >> Right. Immediately. >> Immediately. >> First opportunity. >> First opportunity. The 72 hours have passed. Don't even wait for Matai Shabas. Generally, that's not what that's not what's followed. >> Right. >> But his position has been vindicated on more than one occasion. When it's been cloudy from day five through day 15%. You snooze, you lose. Exactly. And and we've seen it by the way like you know it's happened >> 100% 100%. >> That's number one. But the general not rule but the general uh mode of conduct with kdish lavana >> is matz shabas or after the seventh what would you say? >> Okay so it's a makus. Okay you know the old joke in yeshiva if you don't know the answer to rev asks you a question you know the answer say oh it's it's a mahlo or if you want to be really >> get into say it's a big mahlo. So it this is a big makus >> involving thousands of people >> 72 hours or 7 days or 7 days from the moolad 7 24-hour periods from the from the moolad that's what will wait that's those >> so mat shabas is day four they're waiting >> they're waiting >> interesting because I think in our tradition if Saturday night is day four we would say it >> nonidic ashkanazic will say it yeah abs absolutely >> interesting And I and even in our shaw we're sparik but we're I'm I'm I'm I'm afraid to wait that se those seven days. It works in Israel because in Israel it works out very well during this time of the year when it's not the rainy time of the year. >> You know it's likely going to be good weather. >> Yeah. You're you're going to get kioana. You don't really have a worry. But here you're going to wait seven days. >> You never know. You're going to miss it. >> Seven-day forecast may not be on your side. >> That's right. That's right. Raam Jack is here. The book is called Lavana. There are a lot of things you talk about here. We can't do all of it. So, I'm going to give you a poperri. Do women have an obligation to say kesh lavana? And I asked that because I don't know of any woman who says kish lavana. >> Do you know of any women? >> Yes, I do. >> Interesting. >> You know who it is? Your wife. And she she No, my wife doesn't say it. >> Who does? >> And she's happy. She's proud to say she's fine with that. >> No, I'll tell you know that that my wife, but I'll tell you who does say it. You'll be surprised. Rabbits and Shakar >> really >> she loves to tell the story. >> Go ahead. >> She'll tell she has a story about how uh she and her husband were were driving were driving home where he doesn't drive. They were in a car ride home and the Raunim with a group of Rabanim and >> and uh and and none of them uh they all realized, oh, we didn't say Kiovana yet, right? >> And they realized they had to say it was the last opportunity. They really had they really had to say it >> and the already said it but the other Abanim didn't say it yet >> but they didn't it was before phones they didn't have a sitter on them they didn't know they didn't know by heart so Ravidson sheer said it by heart for them so she loves to tell the story told me the story but she told me it as well it's a great story it's a great story anyone who knows Ravidson shear will >> appreciate it'll appreciate >> but it doesn't mean that she says it every month or do you know that oh obviously she knows it by heart of She says it every month. She does say it every month. It seems from the Gomra >> on Sanhedrin that women really should be saying it. The Gamarra seems to be saying the women say it. >> So how do you think we got to this point where >> I mean I don't know of any I mean aside from the rebbit you just said I I don't know of anybody who says it. Is that funny? >> That's right. That the general min is is a women do not. >> Right. But it's a wrong minute you would say or likely wrong. >> No no I I wouldn't say that. I I >> how would you classify >> rarely we will say something is the wrong how would you classify it >> we I here's my suggestion there are lots of explanations for it here's my suggestion that I that I put forth that it symbolized and the cabala emphasizes this that the women detracted from the moon because uh they they caused Adaran's first sin >> right >> so it's detraction from the moon so therefore they can't they're you know they they shouldn't be saying kavana now what what does that have to do with anything >> right >> so I think the the suggest my suggestion is like this what happened with other marishon it's the power of a wife over her family sort of like we just heard from David you know that it's in the morning gold I'm sorry in in that beautiful >> moment in the morning that he he's a beautiful idea that the wife sets the tone >> right >> it could be in a negative way like Kava did for with the for the original sin or and that's a challenge of Keshan reminding the the women that you're going to bring the gul you're going to bring the redemption which keshana highlights and signals there's going to be a full redemption who's going to bring it it's going to bring it's going to be the women just like in Mitzim the women are the ones that set the tone so to the women the wives the women they set the mothers they set the tone for the whole family and they're the ones that going to be they're going to be the primary triggers of the gula >> and therefore why shouldn't they say the >> it's a pride it's a pride it's a pride it's saying to them you just remember kava was the negative example but from the negative example you go to the positive >> and therefore you don't have to say it >> and therefore the she she should take pride that she does not say it >> interesting >> my suggestion >> wow for jackers here the book is called I'm assuming Assuming it's available everywhere. >> Anywhere that there's Amazon, it's available. >> Right. So, it's on Amazon obviously in a lot of I saw it here in the local Judeica store. So, it's got some of those as well. All right. Popery of questions as I promised. You address if a blind person can say kdish lavana. I never thought of that. In general, what's our approach? I mean, are there any other sight mitzvot? Well, rainbow, I guess. Right. >> Right. >> Lightning. >> Lightning. So, what's this? What's the story with a blind person who obviously can't see them? >> They can't they can't say those words. >> Cannot say it. Wow. Why is this brah of kdish lavana accompanied by so many other tilos and you know talmudic references etc. Why can't can one just say the braa and and go home? >> Okay. Right. Right. That's >> I'm I'm coming off looking terrible tonight. >> No, no, no. The uh I remember the the third the 14-year-old me was thinking that death of the boy, you know, like >> so what do you say? Well, how did is it I mean it's not unusual for a Jewish ritual I'm thinking of tashl right for a Jewish ritual to all of a sudden you know have this explosion of putim and andukim and tamutic references accompany it right >> 100%. >> Think but think about but think about some of the some of the symbolism here. So let's let's let's let's talk about a couple of them here. David, right? >> The resilience the Jew that's that's what it's saying. Everlasting >> everlasting everlasting. You think that David was was was is gone. No, >> he's going to he he's he's going to come back. He will come back. He started. >> Shout out to uh to to Gabriel in the army. should help him and all and all item is giving us a taste and and we're going to get more and more look what it's saying and shalom we >> what's with the shalom >> it's it's a beautiful thing it's it's it's a beautiful thing it's it's so many ideas >> just to to exhibit camaraderie to exhibit >> no but it's yes but it's more than that it's more than that that's you know that Then shal shame. The moon is becoming shalame. And we should also >> if someone says alone, do they say shalom? >> Yes. >> That's what I figured. By the way, my father and I I am so I wonder if my siblings would agree with this, but I'm so sure I remember this. >> My father even in a crowd with a minion would say three times. >> Oh, that's the original. That's the the ra. He said shalom to three separate people and then to continue he saidum shalom three times to himself. >> Oh that's interesting >> because you know whether because someone may not approach you. Okay. >> Someone may not approach you and say shalom to you. There's a million people at this meeting. Right. Okay. >> So he would that's how he would continue with Yeah. I thought that was interesting. And what's with the um and and and the other puk that is central you said but also >> oh my goodness >> why what's the essential that's essential you you can't have the victory you you need the six day war how did how does how does that happen you know yesterday we had a a yard site for in our shaw for for a gentleman named Avi Gillad wonderful wonderful man he fought the six day war and he and I said to him once, "Oh, you did you were able to fight in the six day war and you were able to help bring a victory." He said, "I didn't bring any victory. It was completely Hashem. They just there was fear and the enemy fear and run ran away. It's the enemy fear. Without that, we can't be successful." >> Wow. Um, let's see what else what else you have here. By the way, I you addressed the earliest time for Keshana. I believe that in the majority of minanim and I would say probably every minion I've ever davened in in all my years, nobody would dare think about saying kesh lavana before it was actually dark before before it was after say sakavin. Is that wrong? Can someone say kdesh lavana even a few minutes after sunset? >> Well, this happened already this week. So meaning >> but say shabas it was rainy. Sunday it was rainy and Monday we had we had an opportunity to say keshana put but a lot of shuls dav and marav right after right after kamar together right after and by the time we finish marav 10 15 minutes after after it's a great time to say >> right >> and it's going to be a large crowd it's still a it's still a weekend that's going to that's going to be in the shul it's not a work day so we have a we have a nice crowd nice crowd to be able to say it's a great opportunity being tell them to wait until it's 40 minutes after dark here in the New York area. 40 minutes is pitch black after after dark. So to wait that that's that's a little bit long. Brother Willie told us that you can that 20 minutes would be enough. That's what we did in Arshaw. >> So you had to stall for a few minutes. >> We we had to stall. We had a stall. >> Had you enticed the crowd to stick around, Rabbi Jack? Well, what the rabbi has to try to do is come up with a uh a fun topic to talk about between >> a recent synagogue emergency to discuss. >> We're bringing something to a vote. >> Four four corners defense or four corners offense. You know, you're killing the clock. >> Exactly. Kill that clock on that boy. A challenge for a rabbi. You discuss Havdala. Is that a reference to Abdullah we say in Shimona Estra? Is it a reference to the actual Havda Alakos? >> Havda. So there are people who even on a regular Saturday night will wait to say keshana until they've said havdala on the wine. >> Well, it would seem to me that's that makes more sense to say abdullah and then and then oh one second to say kesana first. >> Well you say first. >> Okay. Typically it's said first. Why? >> But what's better is it better? It seems to be >> whichever is more common you got to do first. >> That's correct. >> And that would be meaning. >> That's right. That's right. However, there are communities that that do it the opposite that they will do uh they'll do keshana. They'll do kdishana first. Now, that's a good question. You know why? >> Well, I get what's going on between me and you and your sh. They say abdulla co, >> right? >> We do. >> So, I don't do it in a shdala. >> And I would think I would think the majority of shs don't and nonetheless go outside to do keshana. Well, a lot of shs actually do say some shs, >> right? But I I I still think if we had the majority the majority would that would not >> and also you know how many matzah shabas minyanim are taking place outside or breakaways like for even people who are against out of shul minanim with all due respect to the rabbi even people are against mat shabis is like a little bit more lenient you know what I'm saying so there's a lot of minyanim like that that are taking place literally under the moon you know >> well it would really be a problem for kishan because we want to have boam hadras we want to have a large crowd Right. Well, some of those crowds are large, but but but it's it's not a big deal. But is that the way you would put it if if it's said before havda or not? >> We like to say before havdala. I mean, as we discussed in the book, uh you say, right? No, no, we we actually say it we say it before havalah. Why? Because a lot of people in the shul are not staying in the shul for the havala in the shul. >> So you don't want to take that risk. >> You don't want to you don't want to lose the people. Right? >> You want to maximize the crowd saying Kdishana, >> right? You have a chapter here on safety kishana. What's that mean? Why is there a doubt uh in regard to Kisha? >> Maybe I said it, maybe I didn't. I don't know how you can. >> Oh, that's what it is. Yeah. So, does it fall under the regular rubric of suffic? >> Yeah, suffic. But it's a discussion like like all these things we talked about the blind person. It's I there's a discussion. Lots of discussion. Lots of discussion. >> I'm all for it. It's really >> is infinite. Torah is infinite. There's >> 100%. And um and where am I here? One second. Yeah. And you actually have a chapter where you disc. It's so funny that that and and it's funny because it it already came up in this conversation. You say Kesh Lavana is not moon worship. I will tell you that to the average New Yorker who's walking by a group of Keshana people, it is hard for them to believe it's not moon worship. What's your point when you when you make that statement? >> Well, okay, it's one thing passers by, but it's another thing that we ourselves ourselves, >> oh my goodness, there are people that really think that, but anyone who says that just has not read the the translation of the braha. They should understand what they're saying. >> That's a good idea, Taka. >> Look at what it says. We're we bless we bless Hashem for making the it's so clear. You just have to understand what you're saying. So it reflects a broader problem that >> hey you're the one who wrote the chapter so you also are >> we paying attention. >> So you also thought that there are people who think that way. >> There are people who do. >> I mean come on. All right. Uh finally yeah proper method. You look at the moon or don't look at the moon. You use the light of the moon to for your sitter. You don't use the light of the moon for your sitter. Procedurally. How does skinno work? >> Some people do some people don't. >> So there are some who will say you can look at the moon and others who would say shy away and turn a little bit away from the moon. Well, some old Davka fa face uh face east instead of the moon. >> No matter where the moon is. >> Except except it doesn't work if the moon is in the east. >> Right. >> All right. So that's uh I mean and and they do it for that reason. You just said yes. You're dominating. >> They want to make it clear to this especially the past. >> So whether you're looking or not or whether you're facing or not you're yay with that. >> You're standing there the moon is there. It's hard to mess it up. >> Right. So you don't have like because I know people who will dapka before that bra is said look up at the moon. >> Yeah 100% you're supposed to look up just make sure it's there 100% you see it you know you're supposed to have some a benefit from you look at >> and then you can roll then then you're good to go. That's it 100%. That's the right way to do it. >> I'll tell you leave it to us to have this nice little u obligation. >> It's great. >> I know. But you can write a whole you can write a whole book about it. It's a great book. I And the cover is done my my wife's friend Miriam Kaminski. I have to give her a shout out. TBC mom. Tabc mom. And it's >> her original painting. Her original drawing. >> Oh my goodness. Yeah, it's beautiful. >> It is beautiful. Um Lavana everybody. New insight. What a great name by the way. Tell me why your daughter I knew a woman came up with her. I knew it. >> Slavana new insights and clarifications of keshana. It is saim jctor. It's brand new. You'll find it in a bunch of DJIA stores. And believe it or not, you will find it on Amazon. >> Can I get one final word? Of >> course. Uh thank you to my daughter-in-law to Raisy for uh for coming up for this uh for the for the name of the book. >> The title that everyone's talking about, Jack, always a pleasure reuniting with you. How are things going at TABC? >> TBC is great. TBC is great. >> The way the way I remember it. >> Even better. Even better. Even better. >> Ah, I'm going to tell the seagull boys that they weren't in the best era. You're saying it's even better now. >> Well, they contributed to making it even better. Each one each one made it better and better and better. >> I appreciate that. Wonderful to see you in Mazalto on the book. >> Thank you, >> Rabbi Kaim Jar. Everybody here with a brand new one entitled Lavana. We are highly recommending it. You are listening to a Thursday morning edition of JM in the AM.