S4 E1: Let's Talk Bringing Camp Into The Classroom (feat. Rabbi Asher Dicker)

What happens in camp is, there is real value given to the kids for who they are, not for who we want them to be. >> But until what age would you pull that? Would you do that to a 16-year-old boy with tickets to the Giants game? >> But if a boy calls out something that's really funny, you have to say, "That was hilarious. That was the funniest thing anyone has ever said in this classroom." >> Welcome to the Learning Curve, where there's no such thing as a bad chinuch question. Let's face your biggest parenting challenges one conversation at a time. >> I'm Rabbi Yisroel Meir Garfield, Menahel of Yeshiva Toras Emes of Houston. >> I'm Rabbi Ari Schonfeld, Menahel at Yeshiva Ketana of Manhattan, Rosh Mesivta Bais Ziporah of Manhattan, and director of Camp Acheinu. >> And this is the Learning Curve podcast. >> Baruch haba'im and welcome back to season 4. Wow. Welcome to season 4. What a s'chus. Rabbi Garfield, it's like a whole new you now that Mr. Schmier son is getting married. >> Yes. Big simcha for the Garfields over the break between season 3 and season 4. My son became a chasan. Shout out to the >> I I imagine it's will be the amount of shidduchim your son was red because of all of Rabbi Garfield's son. Rabbi Garfield's son. That It must have been overwhelming. >> it's a wash, you know. I imagine all my shenanigans are a wash. Like there's myles and chassidus, but you just have to be you. >> You know, I I realized recently the reach of the Learning Curve. I went to the Mir to learn um for a week >> before before Yeshiva started. And I'm sitting in a bais medrash in Bais Shalom in Rav Asher's bais medrash, Rav Asher Weiss's bais medrash. And I'm asking a kasha to a random guy, uh you know, in the Sugya and he turns to me he's like, "I recognize you." I'm like, "Oh, no, here we go." He's like, "You You on tour anytime? You give a shear, a podcast, or something?" Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, "Okay." So, um, wow. >> Honestly, it's a little awkward sometimes because when people say like, "I recognize you, but I don't know from where." So, like what do you say? >> places. Is it the book? Is it Yeshiva? >> Yeah, but what do you say? You say you like you say, "Oh, maybe it's like it's like a weird thing to say." Someone says, "I don't know." I don't know where you know me from. I've no clue. I'm telling you I recognize you, sir. Okay, sir. I don't know. Nice to meet you. >> We are excited as season 4 begins and we have a slew of Hashiv and exciting and interesting guests lined up starting with today. Um, you know, but, you know, now that the the summer has come and gone and we're getting ready and we're starting, um, you know, back in Yeshiva, we thought that today's big question may it makes a lot of sense to discuss from a camp perspective leaning back in Yeshiva. Obviously, I have my thoughts as someone that is a camp director myself. We're getting ready to tease episode 2 with a recording that we did during camp with my staff and you, a very special episode, but that's not for now, that's for next. But, as always, it is time to do two small questions then a large question. So, Rabbi, who won the, uh, the lottery to get the first question? >> ask you the first question, but before I do, I must say about camp since, you know, that's what we talk about on on occasion. I was able to follow your camp statuses or whatever this summer, your communications, and I was so blown away. I watched them more carefully this summer. I'm not sure why, I guess cuz we talked about it so much. And like, I don't know if Camp Asia's like other camps, like I'm not an expert in all camps as you like to point out, but what I could say is Camp Asia has it together. It's awesome. Yeah, I wish I mean, I said to my wife, "LET'S GO CHECK IT OUT NEXT SUMMER." SHE'S, YOU KNOW, "We'll see." That I'm still working on her. But No, it's a really special thing. I don't I don't remember ever being particularly critical of camp. I'm maybe not as enthusiastic, but I wasn't like critical, but I want to just say like >> You mean you mean the sentence, and I quote, and I quote that you said I know kids that went up there from camp. Is that is that a like >> That has to be uh fully context. We'll deal with that one if and when it makes it to the recording. But but uh I was really taken by it and a beautiful beautiful job, Kolko. >> Yeah, we had you in camp via satellite. Um but yeah, it was uh >> It was fun. All right, here we go. Here is question number one, season 4, episode one. >> You know, Rabbi, before before you ask, you know, Baruch Hashem, what we have heard from Mishpacha is that our reach has expanded, can I know her, a lot in season 3. So, maybe we should at least re- re-explain to all our new listeners and their cousins and their aunts and their sisters what the what the layout of a typical learning curve episode is. >> Sure. Sure, go for it. >> So, the way we like to do it is two shorter questions. These are questions, as you'll hear from a big arful at the end, the expert in saying over the phone number and the email. We get emails and questions and sometimes voice notes from our listeners, and it's two shorter questions, and we always like to deal, you know, delve into a larger topic every episode with a guest. So, we do two short questions, then a large question, and away we go. All right, Rabbi, first question, go. >> What is TLC's opinion on drum roll scooters, or for that matter, sports on Shabbos? We live in an area with an eruv, and it's everywhere, but I grew up in an area with no eruv, so it just feels off to me. When I try to encourage my kids not to use their scooters, they ask me why it's any different than using a baby carriage?" >> So, I wonder if my daughter, Chani, will be bat mitzvah soon, wrote this letter in. >> I feel like we talked about it once. We have to talk to the, you know, the archivist, but I feel like this came up, no? >> I don't know. So, so here's here's first of all, the the disclaimer we has to be spoken about at the beginning is a large part of this question is a halachic shaila, and I can speak on behalf of myself, I am not a posik. So, I am not going to discuss the how I mean, of course of course that's that's a huge part of this question, is it assur or muttar? So, yeah, that's a big piece. Now, the Tzlach talks about riding bikes on Shabbos, where he feels that riding an actual bike on Shabbos is assur mid'oraita, maybe it's gezeira, you're going to fix the bike, you're going to get a flat tire, you might leave the tchum. Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg is more meikel, because we don't we don't make new gezeiras. >> I think, generally speaking, um halachically, scooters are permissible. I think so. >> So, so in terms of transportation, or you might fix the chain, or pop a tire, that doesn't apply to scooters. So, it really falls into the category of the shaila what we call ovdin d'chol and zilzul Shabbos, which is a halachic shaila. The the challenge is is that a lot of the halacha of din d'chol is not black and white. Haha, there it is. Is a feel, is a hergesh. The first answer to this person is ask a local Orthodox rabbi. That's number one, two, and three. That being said, I will just share my experience in sports on Shabbos and scooters on Shabbos, because they're both very relevant. Every parent has this. Every single parent has to either go to their rabbi, or deal with their own child when it comes to scooters, um obviously not electric scooters, um and sports. So, I grew up I grew up in Staten Island, and then in Queens, and my father, who's a rav, my father's feeling in terms of kavod Shabbos was no sports outside the house. And I think he even for one point let us play in the backyard, but not the front yard cuz it's private. Again, it depends how big your backyard is. I have a basketball court in my backyard. I don't let it be used on Shabbos by anybody for any purposes. I let my kids play sports downstairs in the basement but not outside. That is my you know, hergesh about what's considered zilzul Shabbos what's considered koved Shabbos. When I was in Eretz Yisrael, I met a rabbi a Yid whose name is Rabbi Weitzner who had some sort of rabbinic position in the Upper West Side for many years. And he told me and this just goes to show you that every area is different and when he moved to the West Side there were some people that maybe allowed this you know let's put it this way. People were playing ball outside on Shabbos. And there there's a huge issue. It's chill Shabbos. There's no airuv in Manhattan. And some rabbis they said we could use the airuv. I'm talking about Central Park. So which most I mean any upstanding Orthodox neighborhood won't let people use the airuv. So he told me that he arranged for the gym the local gym to be used on Shabbos open and he paid for it so that the boys could play inside not outside. And he was telling me with pride how much chill Shabbos he saved, right? So obviously where you are matters. But you know, scooter my daughter in the summer in the bungalow colony in Lackawaxen was very upset that I didn't let her ride a scooter on Shabbos. And I said you're 11 and a half years old. You don't ride a scooter on Shabbos. But this person rides and that person rides and and it's it's it's a hard call of what the age is. But my 6-year-old rides a scooter and the answer is it's age appropriate and it's a feel and as a parent I said you're going to be b'as mitzvah soon. You don't ride a scooter on Shabbos. Why? It's not Shabbos-dik. She wasn't happy with me but you know >> I hope she invoked Rabbi Garfield would allow >> That's that that she doesn't know that trick yet. That's only her older sister knows that kind of trick. Um but in terms of sports and in terms of scooter I think the overall idea is that we don't want to chep her and ruin koved Shabbos and and it should be weekday-ish. You know, um speaking of camp in camp we already lost the fight that the boys wear slides the the day. The whole day the boys are wearing slides. They wear it the whole day. They wear it two leagues and they have their sneakers in their hand when they get to the to the car. >> said on Shabbos. >> So, I'm talking during the week they wear even to shul. >> we have So, we have a rule in our in our in our camp, you can't dive with Amadins slides. You can't get a kibble in slides. I'm I'm sure there are camps that have other rules more or less. Then Shabbos comes and the same kids are putting on slides, they come to shul in slides on Shabbos. Now, was that a sir? Is that a sir? No. I saw it the first week and I I was I was like, "Whoa, this is not okay." And I spoke about it and I would like walk around and like by mistake step on their toes if they were if they were wearing slides. >> By the end was it still an issue? Did it catch on? Like >> They didn't want their toes stepped on. No, but but no, at the end it was much much better. Much better. >> I can't imagine in our shuls I mean, a normal person showing up in slides. >> I said. I said to the boys, "When you're home, no one wears slides to shul on Shabbos." >> Right. >> So, you're in camp, you're more chilled. I said, "Slides, it's not Shabbos dick, right? It's It's part of a feel that we're trying to create in our homes that there's something called Shabbos dick." And I think scooters, what age? I can't tell you. Community matters? Yes. What is the standard? Of course it matters. Sports, what age? I don't know. Over bar mitzvah, under bar mitzvah, backyard, front yard, basement. I'm not defining it for you, but I think you should have a standard in your family. >> Beautiful. All right, there's two comments. I'm not sure I disagree with you. It might be It might be. Well, we're going to have to see what happens. >> Then we have to change the question. Then we have to change the the open the opening question has to have some meat. >> Well, you know, I think >> atmosphere in Houston? What goes on in Houston? >> There's definitely scootering going on. I can tell you you go to shul, there's like a billion and a half scooters. >> What What age? Over bar mitzvah even? >> Uh no, I wouldn't say that's common. I'm not I'm not such an expert in this matter. I don't really look at that, honestly. But I do know that there's definitely kids scootering to shul, no question. There's no outdoor sports. You don't see, you know, but my thoughts were number one, I think you have to be normal. You have to know what's normal. Before you start Schoenfeld, you know, wear a Schoenfeld, which >> I I didn't do that. I didn't do that. I didn't do that. >> Well, you are a little bit because what you're saying is I don't care that other girls who are Bat Mitzvah scooter, we don't do that. And and that's okay. I get I'm I don't know that that's inappropriate. Just have to be careful with that because there better be a lot of good to be a Schoenfeld before you start that. >> a lot of deposits. You have to have a lot of fishing trips. >> trips or whatever. Whatever it takes before you throw the route. So, to the average listener, you know, I would say be careful. Like try to be general rule about these type of things when it's not a halachic violation that was relating to your first comment about asking with the psak. So, assuming that it's not a halachic violation, you know, to ask your child to be machmir in something that now I would say more than 75% of people are not, you have to be thoughtful and delicate with that. That's my first comment. >> Which may be different, you know, depending, you know, >> Right. >> sure if that's arguing with you. Number two is I recall so vividly I went to a shul once that had a more diverse clientele. I don't want to characterize groups on our podcast and but it was what you'd call a an more open shul with a lot of different people. And being the rabbi with the gear that I had, I sort of stood out. And I was online with a kiddush to get some food. And the guy next to me was like very proud. He looked much more modern. He wasn't dressed in a yeshiva look. He was so proud to tell me that he hosts a hockey game for the community in his cul-de-sac. Like, >> On Shabbos? >> On Shabbos, yeah. Shabbos >> What he was proud of what? What made him What was the problem? >> his house is the convener of this beautiful thing of the community hockey. >> you. Why is it beautiful? Stop. Stop. The place the boys get together. >> he's so frum, I guess that Shabbos means something. >> Why is that a frum? >> in a community where Shabbos, what do you do on Shabbos? You go home, you change into shorts, you go to the pool, you might even be on your computer, I don't know. So, >> Okay, good. >> you make the most of on Shabbos. >> Right. It's like this rabbi in the West Side who got the job. >> Yeah, yeah, that exactly. I was like, "Oh, very nice." And I walked away like, "Wow, like how far could you get from understanding Shabbos?" So, even though on one hand I say be normal, let's put this is how I would put it together. Be normal, but if your community has like organized sports on Shabbos, you might want to look elsewhere. Your normal might be a dangerous >> Part Part of the question, again this is where the halachic piece comes in is ovdin d'chol relative or not? Right? >> Yeah, I don't I don't know if you can do that. >> got to ask your your local authority. >> into you know, sports clothes to have a game on Shabbos afternoon. >> so >> Which is done in certain communities. >> cuz because I can I can speak about this coming from camp. In that you have 600 kids under your domain and the rules are you're not allowed to leave your bunk in Tyro's and nothing but big day Shabbos, right? Now, watch this, ready? I don't want to get myself in trouble cuz the parents don't hear what some of the rules are. What do the parents know about rules in camp on Shabbos? Nothing. I let them play sports on Shabbos in camp. Right? No. >> I I would think not. I would think not. >> Now, here we go, ready? I'm going to give you a list of items and the question is are these sports? Remember, the kids it's 5 hours in the afternoon, right? >> Gaga. Gaga in the morning. >> Now, the kids can I know we have an amazing program. We have a lot of learning in camp. A lot of learning in camp. It's amazing as mother, but you have kids What do they do the whole afternoon on Shabbos, right? So, there's a 5-hour afternoon, 5. So, they learn 2 hours, 3 hours. What are they going to do? So, I'm going to give you a list of sports, right? Can you play basketball? Hashem, no basketball. Baseball, no. Football, hockey, okay. Can you play spikeball on Shabbos? Can you play pickleball on Shabbos? >> Tetherball. >> Can you play ping pong on Shabbos? Tetherball on Shabbos? Frisbee on Shabbos? So, the rule we have in camp is no no sports. How do you define a sport? So, I have my own definition of camp and sports and it's really part of it is as you said, a little bit shaky again, the kids have to do something. So, for us pickleball is a sport itself. So, maybe in Halacha challenge makes a lot of noise when you hit the ball. We would not allow to play ping pong. Do you know that? In camp. >> Reb Yeshua Kalesh was our place in camp and not let ping pong in camp because it makes noise. Because of the noise that the rackets make when it hits the ball. Halacha. So, we don't let pickleball in camp. We do let spike ball. We pass that spike ball is not a sport. And and part of it is >> Olympics? No, I've no clue. >> Yeah, part of it is because it's just a thing that they hang around the bunks doing and part of it is also because what do you want them to do the whole Shabbos afternoon? So, then the kids ask me, "What's with tetherball? What's with frisbee?" And I said, "Certain things don't ask me, please." That's my answer. So, again, every I'm sure there are camps with a lot of different rules and certain camps are more Halacha than others, but if you leave your porch not wearing your white not wearing your white shirt or if you leave your porch not wearing your Shabbos pants then we shoot them and that's not a sport. >> All right, let's move on. This I think both of us are eager to talk about all this good stuff, but we have These are the short questions and we we have to keep it moving. So, let's move on to the next question. >> Next question is me to you. Question two. Dear Learning Curve, should I be pushing my kids into doing things they don't want to do? A recent example that came up in my house is laining, but it feels like a constant discussion with other things like tfila, chesed or attending family events. And this is a tremendous combination of chiyuvim and then and then, you know, okay. It seems like modern day parenting and I guess here's the crux of the issue. It seems like modern day parenting has the collective opinion that we encourage but don't push. But some of my kids opt out of things as much as possible and if you don't push them, they will never do more than the absolute bare minimum. What an awesome question. >> Yeah, there's a lot to unpack on that one. >> You go first so I can argue. Go. >> Okay, well, you know, a few comments. One is there has to be a recognition that forcing you do the when the kids are younger, you're able to force more. And we've talked about this a lot and using control. And as they get older, it becomes less effective and more dangerous. So, just in general, we're not against ever forcing or or expecting or requiring or But again, the older the kids get, the more difficult that is and the more dangerous it gets. So, you know, I don't know what age your child is in this, but if they're at the age where they're resisting, you probably missed already the opportunity of forcing them. Probably. But the more important question is, how do we make those experiences meaningful to them? Because that's ultimately what will keep the glue in them doing those behaviors for life. >> Do you want to differentiate while you speak between I mean, there's fila, khesed, learning and family events. That's like an unfair group, right? >> Right. I mean, certainly you prioritize the things that are are critical. I I think davening Well, I mean, we've talked about this and we even had a full episodes about this. Davening is a tremendous challenge for our students today because it gives them so little nutrients for themselves and it demands a nice amount of time. To sit there and to daven and What does an 8-year-old getting out of davening? You know, now if you're singing and you're giving out raffles and stuff, okay, maybe. But like an average davening on Shabbos, you know, to go and sit there, you know, is very hard. >> But speak globally to that parent that says, "Am I allowed to push my son or daughter out of their comfort zone?" I I like all the parenting classes are like, "No. Try to you know, Joel and >> see the fallout of doing that poorly. Could it be done healthfully? Yes. I think so. I think there are scenarios where you could really encourage almost push a kid to do something, but it's risky. And if you don't know what you're doing, it could backfire and then at that point you've lost the child or lost their interest in >> the way Could you give the parent a way to do it without backfiring? >> It's not so simple that I could just give it over. Not that I even know myself. I'm not Who am I? I don't know. Garfield doesn't know how to do it. It's hard. >> How does Garfield How does Garfield encourage and push with and and yet not have his kids, you know, >> Yeah. It's hard and and you have to look at the entire arc of a child's, you know, career. So, a kid who's 16 might be opting not to do certain things, but you know that by the time they're 18 they will or 12. So, you got to see that. I'm blessed to have children over a wide age range and I see how that works. It is hard if your oldest kid is like nine and you're like, "OH MY GOSH." YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO RELAX. They'll get there. But, um my point is that that's why we are so cautious today is because we've seen enough fallout amongst the 35-year-olds, the 30-year-olds of our community who have been I use the word victim more for entertaining purposes than for literal but victims of parents with good intention who are encouraging aggressively and then it doesn't work. And we've seen that. We all know what that looks like. I mean, you don't have to be a, you know, a expert to see the impact of that. So, I think that's why we're all sensitive to it. So, the answer that I'm giving is I don't have an exact answer, but I would definitely error on the side of caution, which might sound weak and new age and all that, but that's just a That is just a function of experience and recognizing the danger of pushing. Not to say you can never do it, but do it judiciously. And if you don't know how to do it, call Rabbi Schonfeld and let him tell you, but don't just do it because it could really backfire. Those are my thoughts. >> So, I do think that we have, you know, listen, the pendulum swings back and forth. I see with students in Yeshiva and students in camp it almost a knee-jerk reaction to be the victim as opposed to a couple of sacrafice, as opposed to understanding consequences and at the second you push or make any demands of them, it's unfair and then they become the victim way too quickly on things even that even shouldn't be. You know, a kid gets in trouble in camp. So, like you'll dock him from leagues for misbehaving and his friends will come over to you. I'm using this as a muscle like but he feels bad. Why does he feel bad? Cuz he can't play. He can't like they don't understand like what it he should feel bad that he can't play. He just, you know, was mean to a kid or he should feel bad. So, I I think that But what's the what's the resolution? So, these examples are odd because these examples are odd because laning is not a great example cuz it really depends on the kid. And maybe we'll have a separate question we'll deal with laning. Seventh grade laning, when is it good, when is it bad? That's a hot topic issue for seventh grade debate. Let's talk family events cuz I want to leave the the the the area of of Fila and Halacha, right? Family events. I think that normal healthy parents that have a normal healthy relationship with their child, I would be comfortable and I have demanding that my son or daughter come to whatever the event is, the vart, right? The the family Hanukkah party, even though they don't want to go and it's okay if they're upset. It's okay if they're upset about it. I will say that to them. I know you're upset. Mommy and I think this is the right My wife will say it better than me that we think this is the right thing for you to do. I understand that you're upset. Also, I think if you verbalize that and you don't just ignore their feelings, then it makes a little bit easier. Like sometimes they're like, "You're just ignoring me. You don't care about me." No, I understand that you're upset. >> question. I'm going to ask you a hard question. >> But I I just just that like don't be afraid to in a healthy, kind, empathetic way set expectations and have a certain expectation for your children. Normal healthy children. >> Think of a scenario, but it doesn't have to be if you >> Hanukkah party. >> Okay, of one that actually happened that's even better, but you know, but you could think of one a theoretical one or if you could think of a real one that would be a more helpful for my question to you. >> Okay. >> You got one? >> Um what I have a Yeah, >> your kid should go and they didn't want to go, but you felt we need to force them to go. It could be theoretical. >> It could be It's It's probably >> You don't have to tell me what it is. >> No, but it has happened often, whether it's going to a going for a for shopping for family stuff. >> You got it? You got it in your mind? Pick it. You got it? Okay. >> Yes. >> This is my question. Whose need is it for that child to be there? Is it your need or the child's need? >> So again, that's a great question and part of it is maybe that's the child's feeling. I'm going to assume that my wife and I feel that it is important for you to put family first and to build that that muscle that when there's a family you go. When it's a wedding, it's a Hanukkah Hanukkah party, it's important for you. >> Okay, that's fair. So you're saying it's a need that you're trying to be that child that even when you don't want to go to family, you show up. >> I'm trying to teach the value of teach that value. >> Fine. As long as Okay, good. I'm I'm a couple and I think that's a healthy approach and that would be good. The alternative is it's like it's embarrassing to the family if you don't show up. I need you there. You know, how can we show up without little you know, it's a to me. >> You're saying in general that not every time parents make decisions they're making it for the right reasons. They're doing it sometimes selfishly, but that's nothing to do with this. That's in general. Parents often make We all We all We all We all do things that are just because for ourselves. >> react strongly when you claim it's for them, but it's really for you. That's when you get into danger zone. Because the kids know, even if they don't even know consciously, but they know subconsciously that you need that kid in laining or whatever the thing is, so you look good. But really, you don't care about it. >> saying that there has to be a truth serum. Right, when you want before you force the kid to lane or make a seam and your son is right now struggling in Korea again getting to right >> We're going to an event. >> Is that your son's need or is that you? >> You go out to a wedding. It's for you. Right. >> My son's not making a seam. I look bad. >> Or or you get invited for lunch, you know, and you come up and and your kid's not there. Where's your kid? Oh, he didn't want to come. Like that's embarrassing. So you tell your kid, you must come with us. HE DOESN'T WANT TO GO. >> But but you could tell him, by the way, it's embarrassing to go to a family simcha, >> Fine. I have no problem with that. Being transparent and saying, you know, it's a me need and I need you to do me a favor, so to speak, now as a parent, you know, that I'm just pointing out a potential pitfall in this. That's >> Good. But what's the second? But but but are you arguing with my my notion is that healthy normal parents don't be a parent. >> I don't have a problem with you saying, you are coming. >> You are coming. >> I I don't have a problem with that. I mean, obviously, like I said in the beginning, >> petrified that your kid son or your daughter is going to have to go off the derech because you're forcing them to go to the Hanukkah party when they instead wanted to go with their friends to the Giants game. It's okay. They can be upset. And now, this is all about assuming that you're making deposits and you have a relationship. >> Right, exactly. But until what age would you pull that? Would you do that to a 16-year-old boy who has tickets to the Giants game? Wow. >> Okay. I know, tickets to the again, depends on on how important it is. But I will tell this, maybe to a 16-year-old boy I would say to him, which I do to my son a lot who is 16 turning 17, I'm not going to force you. I'm telling you what I think is the right decision. >> Okay. >> Cuz that gets to a point where okay, that's But that's a borderline adult. He's driving. >> Okay. Right, that's why I'm asking you. What age are you forcing kids to come to the Hanukkah party? All right, let's move on to our guest. This is very exciting. We have a very special guest. >> It is our pleasure now to welcome to the learning curve. A rebbe, a mechanech par excellence. If you're in the world of chinuch, you know of Reb Usher Dicker. Reb Usher Dicker is a rebbe in Nachlas Chaim, one of the leading yeshivas, elementary yeshivas, yeshiva ketana in Lakewood. Um for 30 years? Something like that? >> This will be my 30th year teaching in three different yeshivas. >> Three different yeshivas. Teaching for all almost all grades in elementary school, middle school. Currently fourth grade rebbe. And then what makes Reb Usher Dicker unique, which is why he's on today's episode, is Reb Usher Dicker was the head counselor in Camp Gan Yisroel Midwest, a an amazing camp. And then for the last 26 years, the assistant head counselor in Camp Gan Yisroel Achim, another leading camp in the industry. And I will just share that anyone who becomes a rebbe or menahelim that are looking to train rebbaim, I did this when I was a menahel and I had to hire rebbaim, you send them to Reb Usher Dicker. You sit He watches them, he sits with them. So some of the creativity in our classroom across America, you don't even know it, is from Reb Usher Dicker. Battleship Gemara, what's it called? What's it called? What's it called? >> There's Milchamtah Shel Torah. >> Milchamtah Shel Torah, there it is, right. Comes from Reb Usher Dicker. So really I I think you're the perfect person, Reb Usher Dicker. You've written for for ArtScroll Bava Kamma and others, other works for ArtScroll. Really a a mechanech, a talmid chacham, and a camp personality, which is really why I think it's perfect to have you here. So baruch haba. >> Thank you very much. Yes, sir. >> One thing Reb Usher Dicker didn't mention, so what yeshiva did you grow up in? Where do you You're a talmid of? >> Talmid of the Mesivta of Long Beach. >> Beautiful. >> Previously Yeshiva of Brooklyn and then the Mesivta of Long Beach. >> Okay, wonderful. That's great. Okay, Reb Usher Schinfeld, we have a spotlight question to get the party started. >> We have a spotlight question that of course is is a I'm a Garfield you'll ask the question. I also I'm a camp director and head counselor so >> ask it it's more like >> Yeah, it makes it more organic. >> Here we go. My kids absolutely thrive in camp and are at their happiest, healthiest, and most relaxed. When it's time to start school again, watching them deflate slowly but surely in their rigid school setting is so difficult for us. Why can't school bring camp energy into the classroom? >> So, you know, I I I get that before I make the answers I one of my board members also followed my my camp videos this year. And he had a similar response to me. He's like you're in your happy zone I see in camp. >> Right. >> So Reb Akiva maybe give us we'll get more detailed and we'll ask some more pointed questions, but start us off. >> Well, obviously such a question really starts at the top. It's really up to the menahel of the yeshiva to to to really engage the rebbeim and tell the rebbeim that this is the phenomenon that we see. And if you have any ideas, don't be adverse to come to me, the menahel. Don't be adverse to just to run with something. Obviously if it's something that's going to be beyond the bounds, you know, it's something that that we'll have to discuss. But the rebbeim have to feel from the hanhala that expanding the box of what exactly goes on in a classroom is something that we the hanhala would would welcome with you know with >> Well, do you believe Well, before you go to the hanhala, do you agree with the notion that kids are happier in camp and that therefore yeshivas are best suited to react to that. >> I agree with that wholeheartedly. I will tell you that about four or five years ago, one of my rebbeim, one of my rebbeim in camp, his name is Rabbi Yitzchok Schwartz, from >> Cold Terrace? >> and from Camp Cold Terrace. >> Yeah, about >> have a refuah shleimah. >> Amen. >> He needs a really needs a a big refuah shleimah now, but I think it was three or four years ago, I was perusing the Reader's Write column in the Hamodia, and I think it was either there or it was in his column. And the entire thrust of the column was, "Why are we not bringing more campiness into yeshiva?" He was very, very, very, very vocal about it. He had just come off another uber-successful season at Cold Terrace. They have really set the standard for Bnei Torah camping in many ways, and I myself am an alumnus of Cold Terrace, and that was his question. His question was, "Why aren't we doing this?" And he left He left over with a plea that this is something that we should be doing. >> So, uh my job on this podcast sometimes, not always, but sometimes is to take positions that are a little contrary in order to bring out the idea. Now, I have this thing with my family where they say, "People don't realize that you're sometimes just You don't really believe what you say. You're just trying to like rate on Rabbi Schonfeld, you know?" But so, with that said, people understand, but I don't know if they do or not, but regardless, I'd like to ask >> going to make disclaimers now in this season when you're rating on >> disclaimer is the disclaimer for the whole season. >> Oh, okay. >> do it every time, I mean. But here's my question. My question is, come on, camp, you What do you do? You sit around and play uh you know, Gaga, and the kids are all happy. Imagine if I told you, in camp, Akiva, I think you were at, right? You have to have the kids learn the first part of Marcus Kamara Rashi Tosis. Could you do your campy campy and hold the kids accountable for learning? And all the kids, not just the certain kids who show up for camp. I'm going to take the seventh grade base class of Marcus Kamara. I'm going to take them to camp Marcus Kamara and tell you to cover the curriculum and have a party >> with math. >> what you're saying could be done? >> With math. >> Forget math. Are you Are you saying that could be done? Because that's really where the, you know, where the the road hits the road, where the rubber hits the road. That's where the action is. Sure, we could SIT AROUND AND DO NOTHING ALL SUMMER AND HAVE A GREAT TIME. YEAH, I COULD DO THAT. I'd love to do that. >> I want to answer I want to answer so much, but I'm going to let her have a go. Ah. >> So, at the end of the day, campiness obviously obviously has a place and it has a time. And that time is one or two months of the year. But there's certain energies and there's certain talents and there's certain outlets that show up in camp and there's no reason why they can't show up in a classroom as well. >> Can you give a couple of examples? >> Yeah. >> I I think the devil's in the details of this. I don't know if that's a Yiddish expression. See, it doesn't sound very Yiddish. >> That's fine. That's fine. >> But, you know, I think I think, you know, it's like because as I explained, you know, it's like easy to say, you know, but in practice we have so many restraints on our time and resources and abilities. So, so practically, what's an example that you think you or Rabbi Schwartz would be referring to? >> So, so first of all, one of the questions I was thinking about, what could be done as far as, you know, one of the one of the basic structures of camp is the groupings, the fact that there's a bunk, the fact that there's a, you know, a segment of children together and they they would need to work together in one way or another. Now, that can easily be accomplished even in a school setting. And by the way, as far as the time is concerned, parents are thrilled because kids come home from Yeshiva and if they're given a project or some sort of a uh you know, a side notion to work on on their spare time, the parents are more happy to accommodate even if it means carpooling. So, uh for example, in my Yeshiva, we have an Arab Shabbos Oneg once a month. The fourth grade have an Arab Shabbos Oneg. And by each Oneg, a different Rabbi tells a story. There are six Rabbeim. There are about nine Onegs. And that leaves us with three Onegs for something else to happen. So, on the either on the last Oneg or the second to last Oneg of the year, instead of telling a story about Shabbos, a Rabbeim's class does a play, a Shabbos play. Now, acting, that is something acting and putting on a skit, that's something that's very, very, very campy. And it's something that's very, very pleasurable to an entire class. So, the entire Rabbeim's class gets heavily involved in this. It takes about uh takes about 12 days, 10 to 12 days. >> And you don't get pushback of of What do you mean? You don't get pushback that you're missing out on Chumash? >> So, it's done really at the end of the year when when you know, in most classrooms, we're looking for things to change up, you know, the schedule a little bit. So, primarily at the end of the year, this is an ideal time. Towards the end of the year, it's an ideal time to do something like this. >> What percentage of the Rabbeim in your school do you think could pull that off? Cuz not everyone has that >> It's it's right. So, that's a good question. Towards the end of the year when all the rabbeim have already so to speak, you know, strutted their stuff, they've told their story, and now we're looking for other ideas. So now it's an ideal time for one class to just show up. And one class could do a play. Actually, after I did a play, another class took upon themselves to do a play, and they did it for third grades. And there was a third fourth grade class that every year does a play for the third graders. And there the beauty of doing for the third graders is is that the other rabbeim don't feel that lachas because it's not being done on a grade-wide effort. Not not, you know, the other class are not watching their you know, their peers prancing around in costumes, etc. >> Could you give an example maybe of something that you a concept like a beside I don't mean a play. I'm talking about a daily something that you're cognizant of. >> stress attitude or approach >> Right, daily. Like hopefully rabbeim listen to this, right? Or maybe parents. I want to read you on that point an email. I actually shared this with Rabbi Garfield because to me you said to Rabbi Dickman and Rabbi Garfield that not every rabbi is head counselor in a camp, right? So I'm baruch Hashem at an advantage even as a menahel where I I work hard in school for Purim plays and I'm able to to do certain things. Not every rabbi has that talent and that skill. I think that there's two distinct sugyas here. Sugya number one is the talent and the outlets and the kid who's musical and the kid who can act and the kid who's, you know, who's funny and finding ways to bring out talents during the year. That by the way ends in elementary school because a mesifta comes, there really isn't so much left in the day. I want to read you a letter I got from a counselor. And I think this is the nekudah that starts from first grade through Beis Medrash. And the counselor who's a chashuve ben Torah, a chashuve ben Torah, and this is part of his his letter after camp this year. And he said, "Most of the time throughout the year," I'm reading, "the extent of ourselves being appreciated by others is in our capabilities to learn through a Sugya. And Baruch Hashem, bli ayin hara, I'm gebentsht to be from the bachurim in my shiur who is much appreciated in my learning abilities. However, as rebbeim spoke to me mentioned during the summer, none of this compares to being noticed and appreciated for who we are as people and how much we work on ourselves to become that person that is enjoyable to be around. I think that something for a bayn to hear is to split the atom. That on the one hand, yes, there's Mishnayos and there's Chumash and there's Gemara and there's curriculum curriculum and avodah as to stress and limud haTorah and hafotzas haTorah and and and zicharon and shaq v'taryah, but to be able to split in half and have a harachah, which is what happens in camp. What happens in camp is there is real value given to the kids for who they are, not for who we want them to be. And and I think that if rebbeim were able to tanzabeh de chasanas more and just embrace Yankel not because not not because of his Gemara skills. Now, on the other hand, you also have to push the value of Gemara. That what I see what happens in camp, the magic of camp is the talent and also the kids are like, "Hey, I am being me and that's enough." As opposed to in during the year, it's only enough if my report card, my this, my that, my this, my that, and I'm not enough by myself. Am I being too deep? >> I understand what you're saying, and all of that and I and I was going to get to that point, the fact that, you know, that that there are many children that are very talented. I had a boy who, together with an older brother painted a beautiful I teach by Yikrah. He painted a an absolutely and Yuma painted a magnificent base and make the scene. >> Mhm. >> And you know, that type of art usually within a classroom does not really does not really show up and it's not really highlighted and that and that's something that camp really really brings out the fact that they're they're other talents. We had boys in camp this summer that painted full scenaries you know, for for various events. They come out and not go to an activity >> Yeah. >> and they would not have gone to the activity otherwise, but they would have been sitting in their bunk and now you know, they they were gainfully employed. Um but what you're describing what you're describing is a very very very important thing and it does not really it's not really so much a camp issue as it's it's it's just a noticing issue. >> Right. >> I had a a very good friend a very good friend of mine who who calls me sometimes to um vent a little bit. >> Is it hard? >> No, teaching is not going so easily for him and one time he called me up. He says he says Reb Usher, the kids just don't like me. >> Wow. >> That's what it that's what he tells me. So I asked him I said uh Reb Avram, whatever make up a name obviously, did Crazy Bones get to your to get to your school yet? He said of course Crazy Bones is small plastic uh you know, little figurines that the kids put on the floor, they flick it from one end of the floor to the other and they have to hit the figurine on the other side, etc. So I asked him, did did Crazy Bones make their way to your school yet? He said of course. I said, when a Rebbi walks into the classroom in the morning it's 9:00 and there two kids by you know, in front of the desk with this big open area playing crazy bones. He comes in with a suitcase, he puts suitcase down, he's preparing a board. I said, there are four possible reactions he could have. Extreme number one is he might get down on the floor and start flicking the crazy bones with them. Extreme number the other direction, he might tell everyone run to seat, might rail against it. >> Right. >> How ridiculous it is and it's expensive and it does not have any skill and there's no >> Didn't have it in the lodging, that's >> There's no value to it and what is that so pointless and what are you doing is putting the tire. Those are the two extremes. Then you might have the rabbi he'll come in and he will just completely ignore it. He'll put down his briefcase and he'll do his board completely ignore it. And then you might have the fourth rabbi. The fourth rabbi comes and he puts down the briefcase and as he's preparing the board he's asking them, "How many do you have? How many are there in a set? Are there some that are rarer than others? Do you get anything when you get a full set? Are there different ways of how to play the game?" And he might just engage them and ask them and show a show an interest in what they're doing. That's not so much a camp issue. It's It's The way that animus split is not by bringing necessarily camping us into it, is by noticing anything about the child. >> Right. I'm I'm I'm just saying that I think that children get one of the reasons why children love camp so much is of course the freedom. Of course. But it's also the fact that they are a let they they are noticed for what they like, not what you like. >> Absolutely. >> Which category was this rabbi? Which category what the what your friend? >> And he was quiet for a long time. >> Wow. >> As I said the question, see it was somewhere in between the come on, you're wasting your time and you know what, I'll just ignore the whole thing. But I told him I told him that Rabbi Daniel Kalish said that I want certain line from him. It's a very kosher line. If a rabbi does not show an interest in what interests the boy, then a boy has every right to not be interested in what interests the rabbi. >> It's it's gorgeous. Is the Is it true what I'm about to say? And that is you know, a rabbi's watching recess and the boy's playing sports and the kid makes a nice catch. An elementary school would that be at least, right? They have to like sports. >> They have to >> Right? They have to like They have to get a kick out of a touchdown. If a rabbi is is only like saying, "Oh, I love my talmid so therefore it's you have to take interest in their world." >> I'm going to tell you something that's that's that might be heresy. But, you know, the the the the thing that a rabbi does not like is a boy that calls out in the middle of class something that's completely, you know, >> No shouting. >> and is distracting. But, if a boy calls out something that's really funny, that's really funny, you have to say, "That was hilarious. That was the funniest thing anyone has ever said in this classroom. That might not have been the best time for it, but that was really funny." You have to show an appreciation. If a boy did something that was that mu'chad. And by the way, if he's a plain vanilla boy who does does nothing mu'chad, then you find something that's not mu'chad to compliment them on. Whether it's his glasses, whether it's his shoes, or whether it's his you know, a haircut. Something has to happen that shows that he is noticed for something beyond how well did you do on this list. Because >> I I want to read you and I have got from you can continue but I want to read you from this is from you and that's how much of this is these words are like a perfect summary of what you just said. Someone sent this to me during the summer. Man stands and screams like a rooster. What's a rooster? Like a rooster, right? He's just screaming his head off and what's he saying? Value me. Don't embarrass me. Just see me. That is all man wants. And I think in camp we do a better job of seeing people. I have got maybe I'm being too sappy and maybe >> I I think it goes so many different ways but I would first say I suspect there are certain types that you guys like in camp. Like just like there are certain kids that we like in school. Like the ones who do well and know the answers and sit politely and take notes and whatever. Come on time. There are probably kids in camp that get a lot of love for different things. They're they're funny, they're loud, they're good at sports, they're artistic. But there are probably kids who are not cool in camp. Are you telling me you pick up all the kids in camp? Like no kid gets lost? >> Yep. >> Come on. >> We try. There's no one's perfect. But I have gotten emails >> saying like YOU HAVE DIFFERENT VALUES but >> I know that because the feedback the feedback that we get and I'm sure it's the exact same. The feedback we get after the summer is from kids that I'm like he had a quote unquote regular summer. He didn't win any awards. He didn't win MVP. He wasn't in the choir. And I'll get an emails from parents that I'm like are we talking about the same kid? He came home. He's never been happier in his life. >> no doubt if you did surveys more kids are happy. You know money more kids. But I imagine there are kids who you're able to accentuate their strengths because they lend themselves like the camp vibe, whatever. But but that's a different question. I think more importantly, what I think a lot of rebbeim maybe even some listening to this will reach out and say like it's unfair what you're asking. Like we have so much pressure from an academic perspective to cover ground, to achieve, to especially in place like Lakewood, you know, like especially. But like even not Lakewood, there's so much pressure in our rebbeim that's academic. It's like so hard to make room in their heart for this as well. It's hard, no? >> Well, that's why Reb Asher Dicker really started. It has to come from the menahel. But yeah, it's what? >> It's necessary. Before the year started, I had a I had a rebbe's meeting with Rabbi Shulman, the menahel. He quoted Rabbi Yerucham. Either it was Either it was Rabbi Yerucham or Rabbi Meir Stern. And he said, "The job of a rebbe is to make the bochur enjoy his day in yeshiva. He has to enjoy his time there." >> Not enjoy learning, but enjoy his day in yeshiva? >> Probably enjoy learning. Probably enjoy learning. But but one bleeds into the next. If the boy is enjoying his day, then that lifted ruach will, you know, will meld right into the next possible. >> Does Does Reb Asher Dicker's classroom have a campy energy in it? >> We try. One day a week, Tuesday, the last 10 minutes of the day is game day. >> Example. >> For example, hot and cold. For example, uh hangman. For example, uh the the week before, you know, the Tuesday before Shiva Asar B'Tammuz, musical chairs. Simon Says. Any game that could be done as a group, I I I'll find wooden discs someplace in the garbage. Okay, those wooden discs now become shuffleboard pieces, and everyone knows in classrooms there are tiles, and you have to get that shuffleboard piece to a certain place. >> And 10 minutes a week on Tuesday is enough for that of a campy little energy drink? >> They they they look forward to it. Okay, Rebbi, what's today for game day? But it it's it's it's it's more than that, you know. >> attitude. >> Anytime It's an attitude. Anytime there's a chazarah, so chazarah will be some sort of a game, you know, a battleship type of a a matzah that will pit I'll have windows against cubbies. I have two boys on both sides of the classroom. You have the windows, and you have the cubbies. So, it's 13 against 13, or 14 against 14. And you know, I have uh >> Rebbi, I'm sorry for I'm I'm sorry. I'm just thinking back to when we had Rabbi Bender from Darchei Ohr, and he talked about the different Rebbeim styles, if you recall. >> Old school versus new school, cooler versus less cool. >> in a you know, I don't know how many they have, six to eight um classes per grade. >> parallel classes in Ohr HaChaim? >> Six. >> Six. So, you're going to have six per grade. Yeah, wow. So, you're going to have some that are more geshmack. I don't know what to say. Like, you're geshmack, and that's great. And schools are full of some Rebbeim that are more geshmack, and some that You want everyone TO BE YOU. IT'S JUST NOT, you know, it's just not the ma- I don't know what to say with that. You You're going to have some that are more geshmack, and some that are more or something else. >> I'm more than happy to share the repertoire with anybody. You know, it's it's the You know, >> can pull it off. You came up with the cubbies and the windows, right? That's geshmack. That's creative. That's great. But there are so many people who cannot do that. >> You know, there's another rebbe and there's another rebbe of the There's another rebbe of the Yeshiva again, another type rebbe, Fogel, Reb Gadi Fogel, who's one of the the head staff members, and amazing. So, he had a game this summer where he took the division and in 10 seconds he split up teams in half. And I said, "Rebbe Fogel, how'd you do it?" He said, "Very simple, tops versus bottoms." Meaning, every bunk, every bed in camp is a bunk bed. Like like that. Like that. Tops versus bottoms. It It was just brilliant. It was so cool. I think though but but Reb Gadi Fogel, I think you you Not not true because yes, there are certain rebbeim that are more exciting and more fun and more creative and have plays and have have shuffleboard and all of that. And and by the way those are the rebbeim that are division heads and head counselors in camp, right? So, of course. >> Exactly. >> and not every has and not every rebbe has that skill. But the other nekudah you know, and there are by the way, there are better rebbeim. There are rebbeim that are more impactful than others. That's just life. >> Do you think there's a correlation? Hey, this this speaks to me. >> Hey, no, it's not a corre- not an automatic correlation between the camp rebbe. No, you're going to say is the head counselor is the better rebbe? >> the premise, rebbe rabbis rabbis. If you play back the tape, hold on. If you play back the tape, you will hear you say that we should bring this to the classroom because kids will benefit, all kids. Reb Shulman's drasha was to all children. You guys are saying all children would benefit from a geshmak steam camp style infusion. Is that not what I heard? Quick, scatter. >> a That is that is a tremendous scale in this >> does Reb Shmuel Fogel put up with this guy? >> So >> Go ahead. >> Here's what I'll tell you. I There are rebbeim in my Yeshiva that I'm thinking of currently that are not camp rebbe. They're not. >> Okay, so if they were listening, what should they take from this? >> You know, you know, you know, you know what they have? They have such ahavas hatalmidim and it is clear for their Talmud, cuz when they sit with their Talmud who struggles in a test, and they go over it with him six times, and they call him at night to chaz with him. That's why I think that there is the can't be pleased. No, but there is there is a No, I am saying that there is also besides bringing making Yeshiva more enjoyable, so it's not boring because you don't want to hit their head against the wall. I think the biggest nekuda that camp adds to a kid's life is not the campiness. I'm not arguing with the kid, I'm adding. I think it's the seeing the children for who they are, and loving them and caring for them without any strings attached. Camp is this total free for all, right? With all the rules. And there is a certain >> That's because we have no expectation of performance. >> Also, yes, of course, of course. >> to produce. >> Yes. Yes. >> We have to >> And therefore makes it harder. >> to connect the sense of self with accomplishment. >> Yes. >> I say that, again, somewhat as the devil's advocate, but I you know, I'm bringing it out. >> But there you have to be able to, on the one hand, we we we we we we demand accomplishments. On the other hand, separated from accomplishments, love the children for who they are. >> Okay, now you're getting into halacha and chanoch. I mean, that's that's the hardest thing, right? How do you set standards, but also >> what happens in camp. What happens in camp is the kids totally if there are no standards. But, I think the secret sauce of camp is in the counselors and they're totally giving of themselves without any compliance demands. And on children's end, yes, it's a hefker velt to a certain extent, but they are totally feel at peace of who they are and value for that. And yeah, of course, besides the talent that is brought out, and the gishmak, and the energy, which of course adds, and a and a classroom needs that. I think that we need to embrace the child for who he is, no strings attached. And I think the rebbe that does that doesn't need as much shuffleboard in his classroom. >> Rabbi Dicker, what do you have to say? Let's let's let the guest sort of >> I think >> every rab >> add what what I would like to add one extra layer. Of course, I I agree with everything Rabbi Schonfeld said. >> About that. >> And I'm the biggest advocate for noticing and noticing and noticing. Well, when I uh when in my early early days in head counseling, a another very very close friend of mine, Rabbi Benjamin Bash, many years head counselor in Ram, he told me that he would tell his staff um at their staff meeting before camp that you have to compliment every boy on day one about their T-shirt. >> Hm. >> Because what does a boy bring to camp? A boy brings his favorite T-shirt. And what does he wear on day one? His favorite T-shirt. >> Amazing. >> And that that's an amazing >> Amazing line. >> So so of course, copping that and identifying it and zeroing in on the individual is going to do worlds is going to do an an enormous amount in helping him in helping him feel appreciated and and and open his heart to the to the rebbe. Open his heart to the learning. But I also think and ask any Major League baseball pitcher, right? I think >> Yes. >> I think if you you can I think they're in the >> comment on that, but go ahead. >> Call up any Major League baseball pitcher you know, and he will tell you the most important thing is mixing up the pitches. And that means that not every pitch is a fastball, and not every pitch is a curveball. There has to be a sense of variety. There has to be some consistency, but there also has to be every once in a while a knuckleball. There has to be something else going on, something that something that stirs the pot. And that that helps, I think, in a big way make the ruach of the classroom I've heard from many, many parents over the years this this this is the nussach that I've heard from parents. My son loves going to yeshiva every day because he knows that there's something gishmack going on happening. So, that idea that there be something a little bit new, a little bit different, a little bit fresh also has, you know, a tremendous value. And that is something, you know, Rebbi Shmuel will tell you that in planning your camp summer you have the 3 and 1/2 weeks all penciled in and suddenly you look one second, the second Tuesday, I have nothing in there. And that that's that's not good for that's not good for camp. >> The maybe the best moment of this summer, one of the most best moments, it rained for like 3 days straight. Camp Achim had Camp Achim had canoes through the baseball field, right? So so we had everything planned. We even had a staff game against Camp Aliyah at night and I was 6:00 in the afternoon and I turned to my wife and I turned to my yeshiva Rebbi Meisels and I'm like, "This is the field. This is what being at We have to go on a trip. This boys, there's something that is stale right now in camp. The last 24 hours has been mullet rain and rain and rain and we went on a trip at 1:00 in the morning that night." I announced I said, "I know it's curfew now, but instead of curfew, the buses are in the parking lot right after the game." And there was a certain but that's a feel that I have as a head counselor and that's a feel that a Rebbi has to have of wow, it's been 3 straight weeks of of you know of the Sugiyesh Alamidas, we have to change something up. >> Yeah. >> That's part and you do that when you care not just about the Sugiyesh but about the child. >> And it could it could be it could be giving out free spots. It could be anything. It could be a >> Beautiful. Well, this was really great. Rabbi Dicker, is there anything else you wanted to add that you didn't feel we got to cuz I want to make sure that we've mined the great Rabbi Dicker for all the >> There is one last the kuda that I I think is very very much part of camp, all camps. And it's not necessarily part of the classroom as much. At least in the middle grades. And and that is song. And that is the concept of introducing music and song into into a classroom. So, the for the four five weeks, you know, until sukkas every week you know, we'll have a nigan shavua. Obviously, we'll start with a simpler one L'man Achai you know, Shari, you know, Shari Shamayim. You know, the the more obvious ones but but last year, I should say two years ago point, that year, I mean, the the the the the stars were aligned and Ad Dizaycher came out. Ad Dizaycher >> Yeah, I got that. >> Oylom. So, I had a boy in the class who whose father was a rabid MBT fan MBT things that was the issue of Rebbe. >> Who who isn't? Yeah. >> And uh and we introduced it in the class and he became the rav. He was the rabbi of this song to the point where I paid someone $100, a fellow with a a keyboard and a mixing board. And we recorded it in an empty classroom. >> Wow. >> no mics. >> That's it. Rabbi Reb that's it. Period. Stop. Rabbi Dicker, stop. Stop. Stop. That's a rebbe. It's not about the camp personality. It's it. He saw a kid who has a talent and for $100, he he was ma'arich with an ayin and gave a hashiva's to everything the kid wanted. >> Beautiful. >> So in general, the idea of you know, on Fridays, I'll sometimes I'll have candles and we'll we'll sing a song. You know, as here, this is a little bit trickier because not every rebbe is mu- A musical, not every rebbe has a voice that will carry the classroom. So then, even if it's a even if it's an MP3 player, something that will bring the koach of niggun into a classroom. >> Beautiful. >> I'm sure every person that will hear this knows, I mean, anyone at camp knows the difference between a camp dining room during the nine days and lunch time after the nine days knows >> Yep. >> what a ruach this brings. So it's it's a simple, easy thing. >> Beautiful. Very wonderful. >> and a phone and I think that's a valuable extra piece. >> Well, thank you. This is really, really great and I would love to see you in camp, too, cuz both of you sound like it's a place to be. >> are not near each other. Like they're two hours apart. >> All right. Wow. >> Wonderful. >> Okay. Thank you so much. This is wonderful. Thank you. >> So Reb Garfield, that was wonderful and >> you know, it wasn't too campy, which I know is very sensitive to you. But I think you know, there are rabbaim that listened to you and probably got energized and got ideas from it. Rabbaim that listened to you and probably got depressed. Like I I don't do A, B, C, and D. >> Right. >> And there's there's there's not one way. Reb Dicker is the top of the food chain. He's from the best rabbaim around. So not everyone is a Reb Dicker. But I I to me, that story with with the MBD kid is everything. It's everything. It's not just oh Yakov, nice song. He this kid's entire year, I imagine, is just for 100 bucks, he got a studio, and I'm sure, you know, it's just it's gorgeous. It's what chinuch is. I think camp does that in spades. And I think yeshiva should do that more. >> to make one comment. This is a bigger topic what I'm about to say, but my one comment on that is if he genuinely respects the kid for that, he'll feel it. And if it's contrived like really I respect the learner, but like I pretend that then the kid will feel it. And the key is sincerity. You know that. >> Yep, the key is sincerity. That's what I said to you. We we have to do a better job of speaking out of both sides of our mouth authentically. And that is on the one hand to demand expectations and to push the shock of a tar and or and a high grades and honor rolls and pa pa pa. And on the other hand, that kid the at the MBD kid, whoever he is he is just as nachman and chava been the rebbe's eyes. >> I'm not sure how to unpack this. >> Right. >> It's a little pashut. What you're saying even as schkofically, even I don't even know if if the if the see where would would agree to that, you know, I don't even know. I mean, we can leave that, but I >> I'm okay being controversial. How's that? I think that we can be controversial. >> Yeah. And are you willing to sacrifice some >> why you know why it's not controversial? Because if you have two children don't substitute the word student for child. We talk out of both sides of our mouth. We have the mitzvah of blah blah blah. >> started this. This is a whole topic. You know, the idea of 1,000 to one is that true about your own children? If you were blessed with 1,000 children you say 1,000 to one? About your children? But yet that's what it says. >> We are just starting season four. Oh baby, this is going to be >> needs to be understood. But in the meantime we welcome your comments. We welcome your thoughts. Even guest suggestions. There's a call in number you can leave us a a message. >> What is that number? >> is The number is 443 >> Mhm. >> 686-9339. I'll say that again. 443-686-9339 or you can send an email to the learning curve at mishpacha.com. Straight one word I guess, the learning curve at mishpacha.com. >> Rabbi, great to be back. Looking forward to another absolutely wonderful season. >> It's going to be great. >> Take care. >> All the best.