S4 E1: Let's Talk Bringing Camp Into The Classroom (feat. Rabbi Asher Dicker)

What happens in camp is there is real value given to the kids for who they are, not for who we want them to be. >> But until what age would you pull that? Would you do that to a 16-year-old boy who has tickets to the Giants game? >> But if a boy calls out something that's really funny, you have to say that was hilarious. That was the funniest thing anyone has ever said in this classroom. [music] >> Welcome to the learning curve where there's no such thing as a bad question. >> Let's face your biggest parenting challenges one conversation at a time. >> I'm Rabbi Yakil Garfield Manal of Yeshiva Toros MS of Houston. I'm Rabbi Ari Shonfeld, man at Tishiba Katana of Manhattan, Royed Bipra of Manhattan and director of camp and this is the learning curve podcast >> and welcome back to season 4. Wow, welcome to season 4. What a Garfield. It's like a whole new you now that Mr. Shem, your son is getting married. Yes, for the Garfields over the break between season three and season four, my son became a shout out. I I imagine it's because the amount of your son was read because of oh Garfield son of a Garfield son that it must have been >> I imagine it's a wash you know I imagine all my shenanigans are a wash like there's my lesson but you just have to be you >> you know I I realized recently the reach of the learning curve I went to the mirror to learn um for a week >> before before yeshiva started and I'm sitting in a base medish in bash bishmed and I'm asking a kasha to a random guy uh you know in the suga and he turns to me he's like I recognize you I'm like oh no here we go he's like you you on Torah anytime you give a shir a podcast or something right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm like okay so um wow >> honestly it's a little awkward sometimes because when people say like I recognize you but I don't know from where >> so like what do you say >> so many places is it the book is it >> yeah but what do you say you say like you say oh maybe like it's like a weird thing to say someone's I don't know. I don't know where you'd know me from. I have no clue. I I'm telling you, I recognize you. I don't know. Nice to meet you. >> We are excited as season 4 begins and we have a a slew of Kash and exciting and interesting guests lined up starting with today. um you know but you know now that the the summer has come and gone and we're getting ready and we're starting um you know back yeshiva we thought that today's big question made it makes a lot of sense to discuss from a camp perspective leaning back in obviously I have my thoughts as someone that is a camp director myself we can already tease episode two with a recording that we did during camp with my staff and you a very special episode but that's not for now that's for next but As always, it is time to do two small questions, then a large question. So, Rabbi, who won the uh the lottery to get the first >> I am going to ask you the first question. But before I do, I must say about camp since you know that's what we talk about on occasion. I was able to follow your camp statuses or whatever this summer, your communications, and I was so blown away. I watched it more carefully this summer. I'm not sure why. I guess because we talked about it so much and like I don't know if camp is like other camps like I'm not an expert in all camps as you like to point out. But what I could say is camp has it together. It's awesome. Yeah. I wish I mean I said to my wife let's go check it out next summer. She's you know we'll see that. I'm still working on her. >> But uh >> thank you. Yeah. >> No, it's a really special thing. I don't I don't remember ever being particularly critical of camp. I'm maybe not as enthusiastic, but I wasn't like critical, but I want to just say like >> you mean you mean the sentence and I quote and I quote >> kids go >> that you said I know kids that went up there from camp. Is that is that >> that has to be uh fully context. We'll deal with that when if and when it makes it to the recording. But but uh I was really taken by a beautiful beautiful job call >> we had you in camp via satellite. Um but yeah, it was fun. It was it was >> all right. Here we go. >> Here is question number one season 4 episode one. >> You know rabbit before before you ask what we have heard from Mishbaka is that our reach has expanded um a lot in season 3. So maybe we should at least re reexlain to all our new listeners and their cousins and their aunts and their sisters what the uh what the layout of a typical learning curve episode is. >> Sure. Sure. Go for it. So the way we like to do it is it's two shorter questions. These are questions as you'll hear from a Garfield at the end the expert in saying over the phone number in the email. We get emails and questions and sometimes voice notes from our listeners and it's two shorter questions and we always like to deal you know delve into a larger topic every episode with a guest. So we do two short questions then a large question and away we go. All right. First question go. What is TLC's opinion on drum roll scooters or for that matter sports on shabas? We live in an area with an aiv and it's everywhere. But I grew up in an area with no a so it just feels off to me. When I try to encourage my kids not to use their scooters they ask me why it's any different than using a baby carriage. >> So I wonder if my daughter Khani who will be bas wrote this letter in. I feel like we talked about it once. We have to talk to the, you know, the archivist, but I feel like this came up. No, >> I don't know. So, so here's here's first of all, the the disclaimer we it has to be spoken about at the beginning is a large part of this question is a shil and I can speak on behalf myself. I am not a so I am not going to discuss the I mean of course of course that's that's a huge part of discussion. Is it user or mut? So yeah, that's a big piece. Now the titilas talks about riding bikes on chabas where he feels that riding an actual bike on chabas is m maybe you're going to fix the bike get a flat tire you might leave the mar because we don't we don't make >> I think generally speaking um hically scooters are permissible I think so >> so in terms of transportation or you might fix the chain or papar that doesn't apply to scooters so >> it really falls into The category of this what we call and shabas which is a the challenge is is that a lot of the is not black and white there it is is a feel is a herish the first answer to this person is ask local rabbi that's number one two and three that being said I will just share my experience in sports on chabas and scooters on chabas because they're both very relevant every parent has this every single parent has to either go to their rabbi or deal with their own child when it comes to scooters um obviously not electric scooters um and sports. So I grew up I grew up in Staten Island and then in Queens and my father who's a RV my father's feeling in terms of cover chabas was no sports outside the house and I think he even for one point let us play in the backyard but not the front yard cuz it's private again depends how big your backyard is. I have a basketball court in my backyard. I don't let it be used on chasers by anybody for any purposes. I let my kids play sports downstairs in the basement but not outside. That is my you know herish about what's considered zil shabas what considered kab shabas when I was in Israel I met rabbi whose name is whitner who had some sort of rabbitic position in the upper west side for many years and he told me and this just goes to show you what every area is different that when he moved to the west side there were some people that maybe allowed this you know that's what they say people are playing ball outside on chabas and there there's a huge issue it's shabas is no and some rabbis they said we could use the air. I'm talking about Central Park which most I mean any upstanding orthodox won't let people use the air. So he told me that he arranged for the gym, the local gym to be used on Shabas that opened and he paid for it so that the boys should play inside not outside and he was telling me with pride how much Shabas he saved right so obviously where you are matters but you know scooter my daughter this summer in the bang colony in Luxer was very upset that I didn't let her ride a scooter on Chabas and I said you're 11 and a half years old you don't ride a scooter on Chabas but this person rides and that person rides and and it's it's it's a hard call of what the age is But my six-year-old rides a scooter. And the answer is it's age appropriate. It's a feel. And as a parent, I said, "You're going to be best, Mr. Sun. You don't run a scooter in Chabas. Why? It's not chabasick." She wasn't happy with me. But, you know, >> I hope she invoked Rabbi Garfield would allow >> that's that she doesn't know that trick yet. That's only her older sister knows the trick. Um, but in terms of sports and in terms of scooter, I think the overall idea is that we don't want a chpper and run cover chabas and and it should be a weekdayish, you know. Um, speaking of camp, in camp, we already lost the fight that the boys wear slides the whole day. The whole day, the boys are wearing slides. >> They wear it the whole day. They wear two leagues and they have their sneakers in their hand when they get to you said on Shabas. >> So, I'm talking during the week they wear it. So we so we have a rule in our in our in our camp. You can't dive for the um inan slides. You can't get a kibb in slides. I'm sure there are camps that have other rules more or less. Then chabas comes and the same kids are putting on slides. They're coming to schulen slides on chabas. Now is that user? >> Is that user? No. I saw it the first week and I was I was like whoa. This is not okay. And I spoke about it and I would like walk around and like by mistake step on their toes if they were wearing slides. >> By the end was still an issue. Did it catch on like They didn't want their toe step done. No, but but no, the end it was much much better. Much better. Almost >> imagine in our shs. >> I mean, a normal person showing up. >> Exactly what I said. I said to the boys, when you're home, no one wears slice to sh. >> So you're in camp, you're more chilled. I said slides. It's not shabasick, right? It's it's part of a feel that we're trying to create in our homes that there's something called shabasick. >> And I think scooters, what age? I can't tell you. Community matters. Yes. What is the standard? Of course, it matters. Sports, what age? I don't know. Over bar mitzvah, under bar mitzvah, backyard, front yard, basement. I I'm not defining it for you, but I think you should have a standard in your family. >> Beautiful. All right. Two comments. I'm not sure I disagree with you. It might be. It might be. We're going to have to see what happens. >> Then we have to change the question. Then we have to change an open the opening question has to have some meat. >> You know, >> what's the overall atmosphere in Houston? What goes on in Houston? >> There's definitely scootering going on. I could tell you. Go to Shaw. There's like a billion and a half scooters. >> What? At what age? Over bar mitzvah even. >> Uh, no. I would say that's common. I'm not I'm not such an expert in this matter. I don't really look at that honestly. But I do know that there's definitely kids scootering dual. No question. There's no outdoor sports. You don't see, you know, but my thoughts were number one, I think you have to be normal. You have to know what's normal before you start shown. You know, we're a Shfeld, which >> I didn't do that. I didn't do that. Well, you are a little bit because what you're saying is I don't care that other girls who are bas mitzvah scooter we don't do that and and that's okay. Again, I I don't know that that's inappropriate. You just have to be careful with that because there better be a lot of good to be a Shownfeld before you >> have to make a lot of deposits. You have to have a lot of >> a lot of fishing trips or whatever whatever it takes before you throw them around. So to the average listener, you know, I would say be careful like try to be nor general rule about these type of things when it's not a violation. That was relating to your first comment about asking the so assuming that it's not a violation. You know, to ask your child to be Makmir in something that I would say more than 75% of people are not, you have to be thoughtful and delicate with that. Agreed. >> That's my first comment. >> Which may be different, you know, depending, you know, >> right? I'm not sure if that's arguing with you. Number two is I recall so vividly I went to a shaw once that had a more diverse clientele. I don't want to characterize groups on our podcast and but it was what you'd call an more open shaw with a lot of different people and being the rabbi with the gear that I had. I sort of stood out and I was online at Kdish to get some food and the guy next to me was like very proud. He looked much more modern. He wasn't dressed in a yeshiva look. And he was so proud to tell me that he hosts the hockey game for the community in his culde-sac like >> on Shabas. Yeah. >> What? He was proud of what what made him >> the his house is the convenor of this beautiful thing of the community. >> Forget why is he st place the boys get together? >> He's so from I guess that shabus means something. >> Why is that a? Well, imagine in a community where Shabas, what do you do on Shabas? You go home, you change into shorts, you go to the pool, you might even be on your computer. I don't know. So, he made the matzive on Chabas, >> right? It's like this rabbi on the west side who got the gym. >> Yeah. Yeah. That exactly. I was like, "Oh, very nice." And I walked away like, "Wow." Like, how far could you get from understanding Chabas? So, even though on one hand I say be normal, let's put this is how I would put it together. Be normal. But if your community has like organized sports on Travis, you might want to look elsewhere. Your normal might be a dangerous. >> I mean, part part of the question, again, this is where the halak piece comes in. Is relative or not, >> right? Yeah. I don't know. >> That's why you got to ask your your local >> like changing into, you know, sports clothes to have a game or this afternoon, which is done in certain. It's funny because because I can I can speak about this coming from camp in that you have 600 kids under your domain and the rules are you're not allowed to leave your bunk in Tyros and nothing but big day Chabas right now watch this ready I don't want to get myself in trouble cuz the parents don't hear some of the rules what do the parents know about rules in camp on Chabas nothing >> all right let it play sports on Shabas and camp >> right >> no I would say I would >> now here we go ready I'm going to give you a list of items and the question is are these sports remember the kids. It's 5 hours in the afternoon. Right. >> Yes. Right now the kids can I know we have an amazing program. We have a lot of learning in camp. A lot of learning in camps. Amazing asada. But you have kids. What do they do the whole afternoon on chabas? Right. So there's a five hour afternoon. Five. So they learn for two hours. Three. What are they going to do? So I'm going to give you a list of sports. Right. Can you play basketball for? No basketball. Baseball? No. Football. Hockey. Okay. Can you play spikeball on chabas? Can you play pickle ball on chabas? pingpong on chabas, tether ball on chabas, frisbee on chabas. So the rule we have in camp is no no sports. How do you define a sport? So I have my own definition of camping sports and it's really part of it is as you said a little bit the kids have to do something. So for us pickle ball is a sport. It's also maybe in it makes a lot of noise when you hit the ball. We were not allowed to play ping pong. You know that in camp. >> Oh really? Yeshua Kaish was our place in camp and not let ping pong in camp because it makes noise because of the noise that the rackets make when it hits the ball. How >> really? >> So we don't let pickle ball in camp. We do let spikeball. We posing that spikeball is not a sport. >> And and part of it is >> you mean the Olympics? No, I have no clue. >> Yeah. Part of it is because it's just the thing that they hang around the bunks doing. And part of it is also because what do you want them to do the whole show this afternoon? So then the kids ask me, "What's with tetherball? What's with Frisbee?" And I said certain things don't ask me please. That's my answer. So again every I'm sure there are camps that a lot of different rules and certain camps are more common than other. But if you leave your porch not wearing your white not wearing a white shirt or if you leave your porch not wearing your shabas pants >> then we shoot them and that's not a sport. [laughter] >> All right let's move on. This is great. I think both of us are eager to talk about all this good stuff but we have these are the short questions and we we have to keep it moving. So let's move on to the next question. >> Next question is me to you. Question two. Dear learning curve, should I be pushing my kids into doing things they don't want to do? A recent example that came up in my house is laning but it feels like a constant discussion with other things like or attending family events. This is a tremendous combination of and then you know okay >> it seems like modern day parenting and I guess here's the crux of the issue. It seems like modern day parenting has the collective opinion that we encourage but don't push. But some of my kids opt out of things as much as possible and if you don't push them, they will never do more than the absolute bare minimum. What an awesome question. >> Yeah, there's a lot to unpack on that one. >> You go first so I can argue. Go. >> Okay. Well, you know, a few comments. One is there has to be a recognition that forcing you do the kids when the kids are younger, you're able to force more and we've talked about this a lot using control and as they get older, it becomes less effective and more dangerous. So just in general, we're not against ever, you know, forcing or or expecting or requiring or but again, the older the kids get, the more difficult that is and the more dangerous it gets. So, you know, I don't know what age your child is in this, but if they're at the age where they're resisting, you probably missed already the opportunity of forcing them probably. But the more important question is, how do we make those experiences meaningful to them? Because that's ultimately what will keep the glue in them doing those behaviors for life. Do you want to differentiate while you speak between I mean there's laning and family events that's like a unfair group right I mean certainly you prioritize the things that are are critical I I think doing I mean we've talked about this and we even had full episodes about this deting is a tremendous challenge for our students today because it gives them so little nutrients for themselves and it demands a nice amount of time to sit there and dabbing and what is an 8-year-old getting out of Davin, you know, now if you're singing and you're giving out raffles and stuff, okay, maybe. But like an average Davin on Travis, you know, to go and sit there, you know, is very hard. >> But speak globally to that parent that says, "Am I allowed to push my son or daughter out of their comfort zone? I I like all the parenting classes are like, no, try to, you know, >> I think because we've all seen the fallout of doing that poorly." Could it be done healthfully? Yes, I think so. I think there are scenarios where you could really encourage almost push a kid to do something, but it's risky and if you don't know what you're doing, it could backfire and then at that point you've lost the child or lost their interest. >> So, what's the way? Could you give the parent a way to do it without backfiring? >> It's not so simple that I could just give it over. Not that I even know myself. I'm not Who am I? I don't know. Garfield doesn't know how to do it. It's hard. How does Garfield How does Garfield encourage and push with and and yet not have his kids, you know? >> Yeah, it it's hard and and you have to look at the entire arc of a child's, you know, career. So, a kid who's 16 might be opting not to do certain things, but you know that by the time they're 18, they will or 12. So, you got to see that. I'm blessed to have children over a wide age range, and I see how that works. It is hard if your oldest kid is like nine and YOU'RE LIKE, "OH MY GOSH." YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO RELAX. They they'll get there. But, um, my point is that that's why we are so cautious today is because we've seen enough fallout amongst the 35year-olds, the 30-year-olds of our community who have been, I use the word victim more for entertaining purposes than for literal purposes, but victims of parents with good intention who are encouraging aggressively and uh then it doesn't work. And we've seen that. We all know what that looks like. I mean, you don't have to be a, you know, a expert to see the impact of that. So, I think that's why we're all sensitive to it. So, the answer that I'm giving is I don't have an exact answer, but I would definitely error on the side of caution, which might sound weak and new age and all that, but that's just a that is just a function of experience and recognizing the danger of pushing. Not to say you can never do it, but do it judiciously. And if you don't know how to do it, call Rabbi Shungfeld and let him tell you, but don't just do it because it could really backfire. Those are my thoughts. >> So, I do think that we have, you know, listen, the pendulum swings back and forth. I see with students in Yeshiva and students in camp, a almost a knee-jerk reaction to be the victim as opposed to Kabalas, as opposed to understanding consequences. and that the second you push or make any demands of them, it's unfair and then they become the victim way too quickly on things even that even shouldn't be. You know, a kid gets in trouble in camp. So like you'll dock him from leagues for misbehaving and his friends will come over to you. I'm using this as a mushroom like but he feels bad. Why does he feel bad? Cuz he can't play. He can't like they don't understand like what he he should feel bad that he can't play. he just, you know, was mean to a kid or he should feel. So I I think that >> resolution, right? So these examples are odd because these examples are odd because laning is not a great example because it really depends on the kid. Maybe we'll have a separate question we'll deal with laning seventh grade laning. When is it good? When is it bad? That's a hot topic issue for seventh grade. >> Let's talk family events because I want to leave the area of of file and halafa, right? Family events. I think that normal healthy parents that have a normal healthy relationship with their child, I would be comfortable and I have demanding that my son or daughter come to whatever the event is, the vart, right? The the family party even though they don't want to go. And it's okay if they're upset. It's okay if they're upset. But by the way, I will say that to them. I know you're upset. Mommy, you know, I think this is the right My wife will say it better than me that we think this is the right thing for you to do. I understand that you're upset. Also, I think if you verbalize that and you don't just ignore their feelings, then it makes it a little bit easier. Like sometimes they're like, "You're just ignoring me. You don't care about me." No, I understand. >> Ask a hard question. >> I'm going to ask you a hard question. But I but but I just just that like don't be afraid to in a healthy kind empathic way set expectations if your children >> normal healthy children >> think of a scenario. It doesn't have to be if you >> party >> okay of one that actually happened that's even better but you know but you could think of one a theoretical one but if you could think of a real one that would be more helpful for my question to you. Okay, >> you got one. >> Um, >> you felt like your kid should go and they didn't want to go, but you felt we need to force them to go. >> It could be theoretical. >> It It could be a It's It's probably >> You don't have to tell me what it is. >> No, but it has happened often. Whether it's going to a going to families, >> you got it. You got it in your mind. Pick it. You got it. Okay. >> This is my question. Whose need is it for that child to be there? Is it your need or the child's need? So again, that's a great question and part of it is maybe that's the child's feeling. I'm going to assume that my wife and I feel that it is important for you to put family first and to build that that muscle that when there's a family, you go when it's a wedding, it's a party, it's important for you. >> Okay, that's fair. So you're saying it's a need that you're trying to be that child that even when you don't want to go to family, you show up. That's fair. >> You're trying to teach other up teach that value >> fine as long okay good I'm I'm a cowboy and that I think that's a healthy approach and that would be good the alternative is it's like it's embarrassing to the family if you don't show up I need you there you know how can we show up without little bar you know it's a busha to me >> you're saying in general that every time parents make decisions they're making it for the right reasons they're doing it sometimes selfishly but that has nothing to do with this that's in general parents often make we all we all do we We all do things that are just because >> the kids really react strongly when you claim it's for them but it's really for you. That's when you get into danger zone because the kids know even if they don't even know consciously but they know subconsciously that you need that kid in laning or whatever the thing is so you look good but really you don't care. So you're saying that there has to be a truth sir, right? When you want before you force your kid to lane or make us see him and your son is right now struggling in Korea again getting right to an event. >> Is that your son's need or is that you or it's embarrassing for you? Right. You're embarrassing if you have a bar mitzvah. My son's not making us see him. I look >> or you get invited for lunch, you know, and you come up and and your kid's not there. Where's your kid? Uh he don't want to come. Like that's embarrassing. So you tell your kid, you must come with us. HE DOESN'T WANT TO GO. >> But but you could tell him. By the way, it's embarrassing to go to a family >> sa fine. I have no problem with that. Being transparent and saying, you know, it's a me need and I need you to do me a favor, so to speak. Now, as a parent, you know that I'm just pointing out a potential pitfall in this. >> Good. But one second. But but but are you arguing with my my notion is that healthy normal parents don't be a parent. >> Don't be a problem. >> No, you are coming. >> You are coming. >> I I don't have a problem with that. I mean, like I said, >> stop being petrified that you can't sons and daughters go off to Derek because you're forcing them to go to the Khan party when they instead wanted to go with their friends to the Giant game. It's okay. They can be upset. And now this is all about assuming that you're making deposits and you have a relationship, >> right? Exactly. But until what age would you pull that? Would you do that to a 16-year-old boy who has tickets to the Giants game? >> Wow. >> Okay. I know. Tickets again depends on on how important it is, but I will tell this. Maybe to a 16-year-old boy, I would say to him, which I do to my son a lot who's 16, turning 17. I'm not going to force you. I'm telling you what I think is the right decision. >> Okay, that's >> that gets to a point. Okay, that's but that's a borderline adult. He's driving. >> Okay. Right. That's why I'm asking you, what age are you forcing kids to come to the Khan party? All right, let's move on to our guest. This is very exciting. We have a very of guest. >> It is our pleasure now to welcome to the learning curve, a rebiance. If you're in the world of you know Rabashad Rabikar is a reb one of the leading yeshivas elementary yeshivas katanistas in Lakewood um for 30 years something like that >> this would be my 30th year teaching in three different yes >> three different yeshivas teaching for all almost all grades in elementary school middle school currently fourth grade rebi and then what makes a unique which is why he's on today's episode is the head council a good Midwest an amazing camp and then for the last 26 years the assistant head counselor in aim another leading camp in the industry and I will just share that anyone who becomes a rebi or manal that are looking to train Rabbim I did this when I was a manal and I hiring you send him to Rabashik who you sit he watches them he sits with them so some of the creativity in our classroom across America you don't even know it is from battleship gar what's called what's that? What's it called? >> There's there it is. Right. So really I I think you're the perfect person. You've written for for art school and others other works of art school really a a mechanic and a camp personality which is really why I think it's perfect to have you here. So >> thank you very much. >> One thing he didn't mention. So what yeshiva did you grow up in? Where do you you're a Talmud of >> a Talmud of the Mift of Long Beach. >> Beautiful. >> Previously Yeshiva of Brooklyn and then the Mess of Long Beach. >> Okay. Wonderful. That's great. Okay. Rabbi Shfeld, we have a spotlight question to get the party started. >> We have a spotlight question that of course is is you're Rabbi Garfield, you'll ask the question. I also I'm a camp director and head counselor. So >> if I ask it, it's more like >> Yeah, it makes it more organic. >> Here we go. My kids absolutely thrive in camp and are at their happiest, healthiest, and most relaxed. When it's time to start school again, watching them deflate slowly but surely in the rigid school setting is so difficult for us. Why can't school bring camp energy into the classroom? So, you know, I I I got that before I took answers. I one of the board members also followed my my camp videos this year and he had a similar response to me. He's like, "You're in your happy zone." I see in camp, >> right? >> Surv give us we'll get more detailed and we'll ask some more pointed questions, but start us off. >> Well, obviously such a question really starts at the top. It's really up to the menial of yeshiva to to to really engage the rebum and tell the rebayim that this is the phenomena that we see and if you have any ideas don't be averse to come to me the manal don't be averse to just to run with something obviously if it's something it's going to be beyond the bounds you know it's something that we'll have to discuss but the have to feel from the han hala that expanding the box of what exactly goes on in a classroom is something that we the han hala would would welcome you know >> do you believe well before you go to holla do you agree with the notion that kids are happier in camp and that therefore yeshivas are best suited to react to that >> I agree with it wholeheartedly I will tell to you about about four or five years ago. One of my rebum, one of my rebay in camping, his name is Rabbi Yitzk Schwarz from Kim >> Cultter. Yeah, >> we should have a rafor >> he needs he really needs a big refor now. But I think it was three or four years ago I was perusing the reader's right column in the ATED and I think it was either there or it was in his column and the entire thrust of the column was why are we not bringing more campiness into yeshiva. He was very very very very vocal about it. He had just come off another uber successful season at Cultterra. They have really set the standard for beta camping in many ways and I myself am an alumnest of Cultterra. And that was his question. His question was why aren't we doing this? And he left he left off with a plea that this is something that we should be doing. So I my job on this podcast sometimes, not always, but sometimes is to take positions that are a little contrary in order to bring out the idea. Now I have this thing with my family where they say people don't realize that you're sometimes just you don't really believe what you say. You're just trying to like rates on Rabbi Shville, you know. But so with that said, I say people understand, but I don't know if they do or not. But regardless, I'd like to ask, >> are you going to make disclaimers now in this season? When do you >> And that disclaimer disclaimer for the whole season. >> I can't do it every time. I mean, >> but here's my question. My question is, come on, camp. You what do you do? You sit around and play uh, you know, gaga and the kids are all happy. Imagine if I told you in camp aim, I think you were at, right? You have to have the kids learn the first paragus gamarashi tyus. Could you do your campy campy and hold the kids accountable for learning? And all the kids, not just the certain kids who show up for camp. I'm going to take the seventh grade Baze class of I'm going to take them to camp aim and tell you to cover the curriculum and have a party >> with math. >> Is that what you're saying could be done >> with math? >> Forget math. Are are you saying that could be done? Because that's really where the you know where the the the road hits the road. Where the rubber hits the road. [laughter] >> That's where the action is. Sure, WE COULD SIT AROUND AND DO NOTHING ALL SUMMER AND HAVE A GREAT TIME. YEAH, I COULD DO THAT. I'd love to do that. >> I want to answer I want to answer so much. I'm going to let a dicker go. H. So at [clears throat] the end of the day, campiness obviously obviously has a place and it has a time and that time is one or two months of the year. But there are certain energies and there are certain talents and there's certain outlets that show up in camp and there's no reason why they can't show up in a classroom as well. >> Could you give a couple a few examples? >> I I think the devil's in the details of this. I don't know if that's a Yiddish expression. See, it doesn't sound very Yiddish. >> That's fine. That's fine. >> But, you know, I think I think, you know, it's like because as I explained, you know, it's like easy to say, you know, but in practice, we have so many restraints on our time and resources and abilities. So, so practically, what's an example that you think you or Rabbi Schwarz would be referring to? So, so first of all, um, one of the questions I was thinking about what could be done as far as, you know, one of the one of the basic structures of camp is the groupings. The fact that there's a bunk, the fact that there's a, you know, a segment of children together and they they would need to work together in one way or another. Now, that can easily be accomplished even in a school setting. And by the way, as far as the time is concerned, parents are thrilled because kids come home from yeshiva and if they're given a project or some sort of a uh you know a side notion to work on on their spare time, the parents are more happy to accommodate even if it means car pooling. So [clears throat] for example in my yeshiva we have an shabas once a month. The fourth grades have an airs in and by each a different rabbi tells a story. >> There are six rabbim there are about nine in that lead three in >> for something else to happen. So on the either on the last in the second to last in of the year instead of telling a story about shabas a ridiculous class does a play a shabas play. Now acting that is something acting and putting on a skit that's something it's very very very campy and it's something that's very very pleasurable to an entire class. So the entire Rabbi Dicker's class gets heavily involved in this. It takes about uh it takes about 12 days 10 to 12 days >> and you don't get push back of of what do you mean but you don't get push back that you're missing out on kish. So it's done really at the end of the year when when you know in most classrooms we're looking for things to change up you know the schedule a little bit. So primarily at the end of the year this is an ideal time towards the end of the year it's an ideal time to do something like this. >> What percentage of the rebayam in your school do you think could pull that off because not everyone has that. >> It's it's right. So that's a good question. Uh I had to be very careful with Koream. I don't know if you want to put this on the final wordcast towards the end of the year when all the rebim have already so to speak, you know, strutdded their stuff. They've told their story and now we're looking for other ideas. >> So now this is an ideal time for one class to just show up and one class could do a play. Actually after I did a play, another class took upon themselves to do a play and they did it for third grades and there was a third fourth grade class that every year does a play for the third graders and there the beauty of doing it for the third graders is is that the other don't feel that because it's not being done on a gradewide not not you know the other class are not watching their you know their peers prancing around in costumes. etc. >> Could you give an example maybe of something that you a concept like beside I don't mean a play I'm talking about a daily something that you're cognizant of or stress >> an attitude or approach >> right daily like hopefully rebay listen to this right or maybe parents I want to read you on on that point an email I actually shared this Rabbi Garfield because to me you said as Garfield said not every rebby is a head counselor in a camp right so I'm basham at an advantage even as a manal or I I I work hard in school for poor and plays and I'm able to to do certain things. Not everybody has that talent and that skill. I think that there's two distinct sugas here. Suga number one is the talent and the outlets and the kid who's musical and the kid who can act and the kid who's, you know, who's funny and finding ways to bring out talents during the year. That, by the way, ends in elementary school because when Msifa comes, there really isn't so much left in the day. I want to read you a a letter I got from a counselor and I think this is the nakud that starts from first grade through Bish and the counselor was a and this is part of his his letter after camp this year and he said most of the time throughout the year I'm reading the extent of ourselves being appreciated by others is in our capabilities to learn through a sugen to be from the who is much appreciated in my learning abilities. However, as Rabby's talking to me, mentioned during the summer, none of this compares to being noticed and appreciated for who we are as people and how much we work on ourselves to become that person that is enjoyable to be around. I think that something for a baim to hear is to split the atom that then on the one hand yes there's mishn and there's and there's gimmar and there's curriculum curriculum and now that's distress and limitra and and and zikar and shakaria but to be able to split in half and have a which is what happens in camp what happens in camp is there is real value given to the kids for who they are, not for who we want them to be. And I think that if RaBain were able to tan theas more and just embrace Yanko, not because not not because of his Gammorra skills. Now on the other hand you also have to push the value of Gmorra that what I see what happens in camp the magic of camp is the talent and also the kids are like hey I am being me and that's enough as opposed to in during the year it's only enough if my report card my this my that my this that and I'm not enough by myself. Am I being too deep? I I understand what you're saying and all of that and and I was going to get to that point the fact that you know that there are many children that are very talented. I had a boy who together with an older brother painted a beautiful I teach by yikra. He painted a an absolute and yuma painted a magnificent ba scene >> and you know that type of art usually within a classroom does not really does not really show up and it's not really highlighted and that and that's something that camp really really brings out the fact that there there are other talents. We had boys in camp this summer. They painted full sceneries, you know, for for various events. They came out, did not go to an activity. Uh and they would not have gone to the activity otherwise, but they would have been sitting in their bunk. And now, you know, they they were gainfully employed. >> Okay. >> Um but what you're describing, what you're describing is a very very very important thing. I mean, it does not really it's not really so much a camp issue as it's it's it's just a noticing issue, >> right? >> I had a a very good friend a very good friend of mine who who calls me sometimes to um vent a little bit >> and teaching is not teaching is not going so easily for him. And one time he called me up. >> He says he says, "The kids just don't like me." >> Whoa. >> That's what this is what he tells me. So I asked them, I said, "Uh, Rabb, whatever make up a name, obviously, [snorts] did Crazy Bones get to your to get to your school yet?" He said, "Of course." Crazy Bones are small plastic uh, you know, little figurines that the kids put on the floor, they flake it from one end of the floor to the other, and they have to hit the figurine on the other side, etc. I asked him, "Did did Crazy Bones make their way to your school?" He said, "Of course." I said, "When a red beanie walks into the classroom in the morning, it's 9:00 and there are two kids by, you know, in front of the desk with this big open area playing crazy bones. He comes in with a suitcase. He puts suitcase down. He's preparing a board." I said, "There are four possible reactions he could have. Extreme number one is he might get down on the floor and start flicking crazy boats with them. extreme number the other direction. He might tell everyone find your seats. He might rail against it, right? >> How ridiculous it is and it's expensive and it does not have any skill and there's no >> they didn't have it in the legion. That's for sure. >> There's no value to it. What it's all pointless. What are you doing? It's those are two extremes. Then you might have the rabbi that will come in and he will just completely ignore it. He'll put down his briefcase and he'll do his board completely ignore it. And then you might have the fourth rabbi. The fourth rabbi comes in, he puts down the briefcase and as he's preparing the board, he's asking them, "How many do you have? How many are there in a set? Are there some that are rarer than others? Do you get anything when you get a full set? Are there different ways of how to play the game?" And you might just engage them and is them and show a show an interest in what they're doing. That's not so much a camp issue. It's it's the the way that Adam is split is not by bringing necessarily campiness into it is by noticing anything about the child. >> Right? I'm I'm I'm just saying that I think that children get one of the reasons why children love camp so much is of course the freedom. Of course, but it's also the fact that they are they they are noticed for what they like, not what you like. >> Absolutely. >> Which category was this, Rebby? Which category of weather was your friend? >> So he was quiet for a long time. >> Wow. >> That is the question. See, he was somewhere in between the come on, you're wasting your time. >> And you know what? I'll just ignore the whole thing. But I told him I told him Rabbi Danil Kaishita I once heard a line from him. It's a very line. If a Rebi does not show an interest in what interests the boy, then a boy has every right to not be interested in what interests the Rebi. >> It's it's gorgeous. Is the Is it true what I'm about to say? And that is, you know, a Rebi's watching recess and the boy's playing sports and the kid makes a nice catch. An elementary school rebby at least, right? They have to like sports. >> They have they have to, >> right? They have to like they have to get a kick out of a touchdown. If a Rebi is is only like saying, "Oh, I love my Talmet, so therefore it's you have to take interest in their world." >> I'm going to tell you something that's that's it might be heresy, but you know, the the the the thing that a Rebi does not like is a boy that calls out middle class something that's completely, you know, low and it's distracting. But if a boy calls out something that's really funny, that's really funny. You have to say that was hilarious. That was the funniest thing anyone has ever said in this classroom. Now might not have been the best time for it, but that was really funny. You have to show an appreciation. If a boy did something that was mu and by the way if he's a plain vanilla boy who does does nothing mukat then you find something that's not mukat to kind compliment him on whether it's his glasses or whether it's his shoes or whether it's is any you know a haircut something has to happen that shows that he is noticed for something beyond how well did you do on this last book >> I I want to read you could continue but I want to read you from this is from this. These words are like a perfect summary of what he just said. Someone said this to me during the summer. Um, man stands and screams. What's a like a rooster, right? He's just screaming his head off. What's he saying with an value me? Don't embarrass me. Just see me. That is all man wants. And I think in camp we do a better job of seeing people. I Garfield, am I am I being too sappy? Maybe >> I I can go so many different ways, but I would first say I suspect there are certain types that you guys like in camp. Just like there are certain kids that we like in school, like the ones who do well and know the answers and sit politely and take notes and whatever, come on time. There are probably kids in camp that get a lot of love for different things. They're gmack, they're funny, they're loud, they're good at sports, they're artistic, but they're probably kids who are not cool in camp. Are you telling me you pick up all the kids in camp? like no kid gets lost. >> Yep. >> Come on. [clears throat] >> It's wrong. >> We try this. No one's perfect. But I have >> I know. But I'm just saying like you have different values, but they're >> But I know that because the feedback the feedback that we get and I'm sure aim is the exact same. The feedback we get after the summer is from kids that I'm like he had a a quote unquote regular summer. He he didn't win any awards. He didn't win MVP. He wasn't in the choir. And I'll get an emails from parents that I'm like, are we talking about the same kid? He came home, he was never been happier in his life. >> I mean, listen, no doubt. Uh, if you did surveys, more kids are happy, you know, money, more kids. >> But I imagine there are kids who you're able to accentuate their strengths because they lend themselves to like the camp vibe, whatever. But but that's a different question. I think more importantly, what I think a lot of rebay, >> maybe even some listening to this will reach out and say like it's unfair what you're asking. Like we have so much pressure from an academic perspective to cover ground to achieve to especially in place like Lakewood you know like especially but like even not Lakewood there's so much pressure in Arab that's academic it's like so hard to make room in their heart for this as well it's hard no >> well that's why started has to come from the manal but yeah it's what >> it's necessary before the year started I had a I had a rebies meeting Rabbi Schman the manal he quoted a bure either was either was or stern and he said the job is to make the bakr enjoy his day in yeshiva. He has to enjoy his time there. >> Not enjoy learning but enjoy his day in yeshiva. >> Probably enjoy learning. Probably enjoy learning. But but one bleeds into the next. If the boy is enjoying his day, then that lifted ruach will, you know, will meld right into the next puzzle. >> Does does Ashra Dicker's classroom have a campy energy in it? >> We try one day a week, Tuesday, the last 10 minutes of the day is game day. example, >> for example, hot and cold, for example, uh hangman. For example, uh the the week before, you know, the Tuesday before Shivas Batama's musical chairs, Simon says, any game that could be done as a group, I I I'll find wooden discs someplace in the garbage. Okay, those wooden discs now become shuffleboard pieces. And everyone knows in classrooms there are tiles and you have to get that shuffleboard piece to a certain place >> and 10 minutes a week on Tuesday is enough for that of a campy little energy drink. >> Enjoy. They look forward to it. Okay, Rebby Watts today for game day. But it's it's really it's it's more than that. You know, it's an attitude anytime. It's an attitude. Anytime there's a khazor, so the khazor will be some sort of a game, you know, a battleship type of a a matsu that will pit. I'll have windows against cubbies. I have two boys on both sides of the classroom. You have the windows and you have the cubbies. It's 13 against 13 or 14 against 14. And you know, I have ufeld, excuse me. I'm just thinking back to when we had Rabbi Bender from Dar on and he talked about the different rebum styles if you recall >> old school verse new school cooler >> in a in a you know I don't know how many they have six to eight um classes per grade >> how many parallel classes in Aras >> six >> six you're going to have >> per grade >> yeah wow so you're going to have some that are more gishmack [clears throat] I don't know what to say like you're Gishmak and that's great and schools are full of some are banned that are mortgage schmack and some YOU WANT EVERYONE TO BE YOU. It's just not you know it's just not the m I don't know what to say with that. You're going to have some that are mortgage mach and some that are more something else. [clears throat] >> I'm happy I'm more than happy to share the repertoire with anybody. You know it's it's >> Yeah, but pull it off. You came up with the cubbies and the windows, right? That's kishmak. That's creative. That's great. But there's so many people who cannot do that. You know there's another Rebi there's another there's another Rebiku I got another type Rabbi Fogle Batti Fogle who's one of the the head staff members and amazing so he had a game this summer where he took the division and in 10 seconds he split up teams in half and I said Fogle how'd you do it he's like very simple tops versus bottoms meaning every bunk every bed in camp is a bunk bed like like that like that tops bottom it was just brilliant it was so cool I think though but but Garfield I think not not true because yes there are certain rebay that are more exciting and more fun and more creative and have plays and have a shuffle board and all of that and and by the way those are the rebum that are division heads and head counselors in camp right so of course um and not every has and not everybody has that skill but the other nuda you know and there by the way there are better rebay there are bayam that are more impactful than others that's just life but there are that are more impactful than I this this speaks to me. >> No, it's not a correl not an automatic correlation between the camp rebby. No, you're going to say is the head counselors the better of >> Well, that's the premise. Rabbi, rabbis, rabbis, if you play back the tape, hold on. If you play back the tape, you will hear you say that we should bring this to the classroom because kids will benefit. All kids, Rabbi Schman's was to all children. You guys are saying all children would benefit from a Gishmaxine camp style infusion. Is that not what I heard? Quick scatter. >> That is >> That is That is a tremendous. >> How does Rael put up with this guy? >> So go ahead. >> Here's what I'll tell you. I There are Reame and Marisha that I am thinking of currently that are not camper vain. They're not. >> Okay. >> So if they were listening, what should they take from this? >> You know, you know what they have? They have such a and it is clear for their tal because when they sit with their tal who struggles in a test and they go with him six times and they call a night with him that's why I think there's the campy pe no but there is there is a no I am saying that there is also >> besides bringing making camp yeshiva more enjoyable so it's not boring they want to hit their head against the wall I think the biggest nakuda that camp adds to a kid's life is not the campiness. I'm not arguing with the ridiculer. I'm adding. I think it's the seeing the children for who they are and loving them and caring for them without any strings attached. Camp is this total free-for-all, right? With all the rules and there is a certain >> course that's because we have no expectation of performance. >> Awesome. school. We have to produce. >> They have to get the vocab work. They have to >> and therefore it makes it hard. >> You have to connect the sense of self with accomplishment. >> Yes. >> I I say that again somewhat as a devil's advocate, but I you know I'm freaking it out. >> But there you have to be able to on the one hand we want we we we demand accomplishments. On the other hand, separated from accomplishments, love the children for who they are. >> Okay. Now you're getting into I mean that's that's the hardest thing right how do you set standards but >> I'm telling you that's what happens in camp what happens in camp is the kids totally if there are no standards but >> I think the secret source of camp is in the counselor's end they're totally giving of themsel without any compliance demands and on children's end yes it's a heftl to a certain extent but they are totally feel at peace of who they are and value for that and yeah of Besides the talent that is brought out and the gishmach and the energy which of course adds and a and a classroom needs that I think that we need to embrace the child for who he is no strings attached and I think the rebby that does that doesn't need as much shuffle board in his classroom. >> Rabbi Dicker what do you have to say? Let's let's let the guests sort of >> so add I would like to add one extra layer. Of course, I I agree with everything Rab Shunfeld said >> and I'm the biggest advocate for noticing and noticing and noticing, but when I uh when in my early early days in head counseloring, a another very very close friend of mine Bash, many years head counselor, Rahim, he taught me that he would tell his staff um at their staff meeting before camp that you have to compliment every boy on day one about their t-shirt >> because [clears throat] what does a boy bring to camp? A boy brings his favorite t-shirts. And what does he wear on day one? His favorite t-shirt. >> Amazing. >> That isn't that amazing. >> Amazing life. So, so of course that and identifying it and zeroing in on the individual is going to do worlds is going to do in an enormous amount in helping him in helping him feel appreciated and and and open his heart to the to the rabbi, open his heart to the learning. But I also think and ask any major league baseball pitcher, right? I think >> yes >> I think if you you could I think they're in >> I can't comment on that but go ahead >> call up any Major League Baseball pitcher you know and he will tell you the most important thing is mixing up the pitches and that means that not every pitch is a fast ball and not every pitch is a curveball. There has to be a sense of variety. There has to be some consistency, but there also has to be every once in a while a knuckle ball. There has to be something else going on. Something that something that stirs the pot and that that helps I think in a big way make the ru of the classroom. I've heard from many many parents over the years. This this is the that I've heard from parents. My son loves going to Shiva every day because he knows that there's something going to happen. >> So that idea that there be something a little bit new, a little bit different, a little bit fresh also has, you know, a tremendous value. And that is something you know Rab Sha will tell you that in planning a camp summer you have the three and a half weeks all penciled in and suddenly you look one second the second Tuesday I have nothing in there and that that's that's not good for that's not good for camp >> the maybe the best moment of this summer one of the most best moments it rained for like three days straight had >> a had canoes through the baseball field right they did so So, we had everything planned. We even had a staff game against Camp Aliyah at night and I was 6:00 in the afternoon and I turned to my wife and I turned to my short debts and I'm like this is the feel. This is what being at at we have to get on a trip. This boy's there's something that is stale right now in camp the last 24 hours. It's been mull rain and rain and rain. And we went on a trip at 1:00 in the morning that night. I announced I said I know it's curfew now um but instead of curfew the buses are in the parking lot right after the game and there was a certain but that's a feel that I have as a head counselor and that's a feel that a rebby has to have >> of wow it's been three straight weeks of of you know of the sugas we have to change something up. Yeah, >> that's part and you do that when you care not just about the sugia but about the child >> and it could it could be it could be giving out freeze pops. It could be anything. It could be anything. >> Well, this was really great. All right, Rabbi Dicker, is there anything else you wanted to add that you didn't feel we got to because I want to make sure that we've uh mined the great Rabbi Dicker for all the >> There is one last nuda that I I think is very very much part of camp all camps and it's not necessarily part of the classroom as much at least in the middle grades and that is song and that is the concept of introducing music and song into into a classroom. So the for the four or five weeks you know until sukus every week you know we we'll have a shu obviously we'll start with the simpler one le and you know sh you know shim you know the the more obvious ones but but last year I should say two years ago punked that year I mean the stars were aligned uh and came Say, >> so I had a boy in the class who whose father was a rabbid MBD fan. MBD sings it with Isa Reebo. >> Who who isn't? Yeah. >> And uh and we introduced him in the class and he became the rough. He was the rabbi of this song to the point where I paid someone $100, a fellow with a a keyboard and a mixing board and we recorded it in an empty classroom. >> Wow. >> There were mics. >> That's it. Rabbi Garfield. That's it. Period. Stop. Okay. Stop. Stop. Stop. That's a Rebi. It's not about the camp personality. It's it. He saw a kid who has a talent and for $100 he he was ma with an and gave a kash to everything the kid wanted. >> Beautiful. So, so in general the idea of you know on Fridays I'll sometimes I'll have candles and we'll we'll sing a song you know as now here this is a little bit trickier because not every rebby is m a musical not every rebby has a voice that will carry the classroom so then even if it's a even if it's an MP3 player something that will bring the kayak of niggan into a classroom Beautiful. >> I'm sure every person that will hear this knows. I mean, anyone in camp knows the difference between a camp dining room during the nine days [laughter] and and lunchtime after the nine days knows. >> Yep. >> What a ruach this brings. >> So, it's it's a simple easy thing. It's uh >> wonderful and a phone. And I think that's a valuable extra piece. >> Well, thank you. This is really really great. and I would love to uh see you in camp too because both of you sound like uh it's a place >> our camps are not near each other like two hours apart. >> Wow. Wonderful. >> Okay. >> Thank you so much. This was wonderful. Thank you. >> So regardful that was wonderful and and you know it wasn't too campy which I know was [laughter] very sensitive to you but I think you know there are rebane that listen to it probably got energized and got ideas from it. Rebeim that listened to it and probably got depressed. Like I I don't do A, B, C, and D, right? And there's there's there's not one way. Radicker is the top of the food chain. He's from the best reaim around. So not everyone is a brush dicker. But I to me that story with with the MBD kid is everything. It's everything. It's not just Oh, yel nice song. He this kid's entire year I imagine is just for 100 bucks he got a studio and I'm sure you know it's just it's gorgeous. It's what Khan is. I think camp does that in spades and I think Yeshiva should do that more. >> I'm gonna make one comment. >> This is a bigger topic what I'm about to say. But my one comment on that is if he genuinely respects a kid for that he'll feel it. And if it's contrived like really I respect the learner but like I pretend then the kid will feel it. And the key is sincerity you know. >> The key is sincerity. That's why I said to you we we have to do a better job of speaking out of both sides of our mouth. authentically [laughter] and that is on the one hand to demand expectations and to push the shakatario you know or and high grades and honor roles and and on the other hand that kid the the MBD kid whoever he is he is just as Nehmad and in the rebies office >> so so I'm not sure unpack this >> pash what you're saying even ashkuffically even I don't even know if the if the seabboard would would agree to that, you know, I don't even know. I mean, we can leave that, but I I don't think >> I'm okay being controversial. How's you think the only one that can be controversial? >> Yeah. And are you willing to sacrifice? Um, >> you know why? You know why it's not controversial? Because if you have two children, don't substitute the word student for child. We talk at both sides of our mouth. We have the blah blah blah. >> Don't get me started. This is a whole topic. [laughter] >> You know, the idea of is that true about your own children? If you were blessed with a thousand children, you say about your children, but yet that's what it says. >> We are just starting season 4. Oh, baby. >> So, that needs to be understood. But in the meantime, >> we welcome your comments. We welcome your thoughts, even guest suggestions. There's a call in number. You can leave us a a message. >> What is the number is? >> The number is 443. >> Mhm. >> 6869339. I'll say that again. 4436869339 or you can send an email to the learning [email protected]. Straight one word I guess the learning curve at mishbucka.com. >> Rabbi, great to be back. Looking forward to another absolutely wonderful season. >> It's going to be great. All the best. [music]