S3 Eps 2. Let's Talk Getting Into Mesivta

Now I could say because I'm not eighth grader anymore. I was never honest on report codes. Every kid got an olive. >> So cut the baloney and let's just say that a parent does not have the right to mandate or to set an expectation of a specific destination. >> And not always will every boy get into perhaps that share that he's looking forward towards. There's some kids I mark an answer correct and some kids I'll mark the same answer half correct. Welcome to the Learning Curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaha Magazine. >> We're raising children in a changing and challenging world. >> So let's tackle the important issues facing families today. >> I'm Rabbi Garfield, Manal of Yeshiva in Houston and I love talking about >> I'm Rabbi Ari Sharmfeld Manal of Shiva Katana Manhattan, Ro of Bipra Manhattan, director of camp. I also love talking kenuk and of course a little bit of fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. >> Welcome back to another episode of the learning curve as we move onward in season three already. Wow. Three is a kazaka. Yes. So very exciting. Season three and our first episode was riveting to say the least. Rabbi Garfield, how's the weather in Houston? >> This is the best time for Houston. You know, it's beautiful. It's not too hot. It's not too cold. Just right. >> You know, my my daughter told me that she wants to go to Houston for the summer. >> Oh. >> And I said to her to visit her cousins in Houston, and I said to her, "No, you don't." >> Yeah. Not the right. >> You got to get off the plane and turn right back. Yeah. So you're you have the beautiful Houston season. We have what's called I I'm going to get eye rolls for this. Prime fishing season. The cold November waters allow the stripe bass to migrate north. So >> Oh wow. Fishing matz is in Galveastston here. I don't know people. >> I don't know what a Galveastston I don't know what Galveastston is. >> That's like our beach water area. It's in the Gulf, but I think people go fishing there, but I couldn't tell you for sure. So I will tell Yuri Garfield that I think I'm visiting Houston in February, right, for a very big special conference and maybe I'll have the opportunity then. Okay, fine. So enough enough of the chitchat. I think >> you know we always say we we invite your feedback and we hear from parents and hear from listeners all the time and sometimes you mean it more than others. So we struck a chord in episode one, did we not? >> Oh yeah, for sure. I have so many menal reach out to me who listen to it and have very strong feelings about the idea of elite and you know what it means in practice and certainly very a lot of emotion. A lot of emotion. >> Yeah. A lot of emotion, a lot of thought. So what we thought to do is really to follow up on that. And so the first I'm going to call two questions maybe you know the first question and a half will really be a followup to our season opening episode with her by Smith and Mrs. Feder. So what we're going to do is to play a a voice note a voice recording to what phone number. >> Oh it's funny you should ask. [laughter] >> You didn't warn me for that. Um everyone knows the number. I should say it again. Yeah, I don't have to say it. Yeah, say it just for the three. Yeah, three people that don't have it on their refrigerator. >> 4436869339, that's 443 6869339. >> So, the following person who we don't I don't know who it is. I don't think you know who it is either, sent in a very passionate response to our interview, specifically Rabbi Smith. And then we did something maybe noble and that is we sent the recording to Rabbi Smith. so he could respond to the recording, right? I think you're going to read O. Smith's written response. I think that's >> exciting. It's engaging. It's interactive. I also think it it goes through some of the things that either bothered people or landed with people during the interview. Absolutely. So, we're going to So, we're going to play that recording, then you'll read Rabbi Smith's response. >> Here we go. >> Hi. So, I was just listening to your latest TLC um and talking about pressure and all things like that and you had on this gas man from Lakewood um and I've never heard someone so I mean I I I'll be a little nice but perpetuating um issues talking about how he is is yes the elite right due to the fact that the parent body is 90% in colo and learning. Uh you know Berlin and Flatbush is not is also 90% like that. I don't think they classify themselves as the elite right and then talking about more left since when is right and left has to do with what the parent body is doing. You know I I I'm talking about how that the guys there want to get their takivas but why he never explained why their parents want to do it. Do they want to do it like you mentioned because of the shak if this yeshiva is such an elitist yeshiva I want stats of how many of his guys are you know postgraduation and marriage whatever are still learning full-time in elitist places giving the top sheer places you know I what did not go to a elitist yeshiva went to a normal yeshiva in the tri-state area and you know what I have friends who were initially going to become doctors and everything and they decided not to and they ended up going to learn you know initial at the Kaplan uh you know other top name yes n yes n yes n yes n yes n yes n yes n yes n yes n yes nish yes which his guys are getting into now uh you know which his guys are getting into and these guys are dedicated their lives to learning full-time and they're doing it because they view what they're doing as important not because their parents pushed them since they were 2 years old to do this it I've never heard and then he even goes on to say how he has has a class that is not so into it really. So maybe your whole facade and of of what your school is is fake. Maybe you're all he's just pretending to have this elitist thing because parents are in call. So they look down on the people whose parents are not in call. Oh, so the parent body that is supporting his yeshiva like did he as stereotypical as it sounds? Did he never care if he suffer as a villain and other thing there? I I'm promising you that now there are Balabatan that are going to get more scar than kids that are going through his yeshiva because they are supporting Tyra and serving Hashem in better ways than guys that are just floating through the system. He is perpetuating an issue. >> Yeah, that was quite uh that was quite an earful. We appreciate you the listener who called in. We appreciate that you called in and you shared your sentiments and certainly what you're saying resonates with a lot of our listeners. So, we appreciate you doing that. Yeah, it was passion. And I will share that it is something that I heard from a few people that were bothered by your interview with Rabbi Smith. Like, oh my gosh, like he they thought he spoke with a little bit of a I don't know, an elite Mitsuian attitude. So really what we did, >> you know, the word elite is such a trigger because and you know, honestly, it should be a little because what does elite mean? What does what do you mean when you say that? You know, that's always the challenge. So, let's read Rabbi Smith's response. As you mentioned, we shared the recording with Rabbi Smith, and he was very, he's a real mench and very gracious, and he didn't react defensively at all. He said, "Let me try my best to be responsive." And he took time and wrote this up. So, I will read it read it now. >> To the one who was very concerned, thank you for taking the time to share your feedback. I truly appreciate your honesty and the opportunity to clarify. When I use the term elite, it was never intended to imply that this is the only valuable path to look down on anyone who is not part of it. We all know that every y is precious to hashem and that every bit of a vote in whatever form it takes is deeply meaningful and beloved. What I'm trying to convey is that in yeshiva like ours, many parents live lives that revolve completely around Torah and Avoda. Their values, goals and daily efforts are centered on learning and raising children who will continue in that way. They are not people who spend their time on vacations with Sundays off etc. But rather focus on what they believe is MS and RNAS. Naturally in such an environment there the academic or learning expectations might reflect those priorities more strongly. Just as for example a class of professors children might naturally have a stronger emphasis on academics. simply because that's what their parents live and breathe. It's not about being quote unquote better, but about living with a particular focus and passing that along to the next generation. I hope this brings more clarity to what I meant. I value your perspective very much and will be happy to discuss it directly with you if you'd like. Wishing you continued Smith. So I think it does bring if you ask me a lot of clarity to what he meant and I really I think if we had the conversation with the Smith again and just took out the words anytime the word elite or Mitsuyan came up it just right got edited out of the interview you know I think we'd have to redo some of our swag maybe our elite Mitsuyian swags but I think it would change the conversation I don't know if you remember last season we interviewed Rabbi Mura Bender about parallel classes right and he said how there are classes that are more focused on learning and a lot of times that comes from parents who are more focus focused on learning. So, you know, the idea of a school culture valuing lima more than other things, you know, I will just share that I have there's a lot of yeshivas in Manhattan in in the upper west side and in Riverdale and a lot of different yeshivas and when parents come to my school and they want to transfer from other yeshivas, I am very open and proud and clear with them that when you come to yeshiva katana versus a day school, I'm speaking very generically. There is a value system and a really a hierarchy of how much time you spend on how much time you spend in and there are naminas and there are you know ramifications for the level of learning you can reach the level of science and math you can reach there are ramifications either way if that's all Rabbi Smith meant and that's what he's clarifying you know the word elite mitsuin doesn't have to appear in that conversation >> you wouldn't consider yourself I don't the word elite eat but in a sense than a school that doesn't have the same focus as is the katan man >> I would never use the word higher I use the word different >> yeah but that's because you're being PC but if you were really being honest and describing I don't know I don't know Manhattan landscape but let's say there's a school called Hebrew Academy Manhattan and in Hebrew Academy Manhattan they have boys and girls mixed and they have less mur kesh and the boys don't go off to yeshiva they go off to co-ed high school right >> so how would you describe the difference if you want to just be obvious that our our focus and our attention learning >> is right is it will be in the amount of hours we spend learning. It will be on the value we give to learning and yes for lack of a better word it'll be more turdic your son will come out of eighth grade obviously on a bell curve you know with much more exposure to learning than he will if he's in Hebrew Academy Rabbi Smith would say is that within Lakewood where the the standard is already like so much higher than in many of the rest of the country could you be more tyic within more tyic and he's calling that elite but essentially he's saying we're even more tyic than the tyic shabyic Yes. Yeah. And I but I do think that so much of it is in the tone and in the message and the feeling that people get that you know yeah there's always nuance. You could say what do you mean? So so we're more turdict than the conservative is that elite in other words within the to start being nuanced and saying I'm more teddict than you be right that's where people get uncomfortable. >> There are two issues that the caller really brought up even with that background. Number one is does that translate? Meaning the assumption is that if they go to your yeshivic time in Manhattan, they are going to end up more tyredict than if they go to the Hebrew Academy in Hat, whatever that is. >> Exactly. I think that the Hebrew Academy versus Yeshiva Katana, leave Manhattan out of me because I don't want to get any a yeshiva katana verse a Hebrew day school is a is not a nuance, right? >> It's a fundamental different approach to life. Exactly. So, >> exactly. And what the ker was upset about was that he felt he feels that Rabbi Smith and those that are in those type of yeshivas who feel that it's a black and white difference >> right >> between their yeshiva and the more balabat yesa the balabatim who grew up in a yeshiva are very perturbed >> by that >> statement >> right so the question is what does Rabbi Schfeld think >> do you think that in the end of the day it is consequential it is a big deal if you sent to a Uber Torah Dicka place or you send to just a Tora place. You think more guys end up in Prager or wherever they're trying to end up? >> How about this? How about we read the question that came in right for episode two? Okay, >> let's read the question that came in now because it's kind of on this topic and then we can go from there. How I think >> I wanted to make another comment though before we leave this Rabbi Smith thing and that is and then we'll get to the question. The other comment was that even if it's true, well, I get it's true. Okay, let's say that if you go to the Uber to Target place, you know, your odds of ending up at Brisk or whatever the goal is is higher. There's a >> I finished your sentence here. >> Oh, no. No. I thought I No, finish. Go. >> Okay. Even if that's true, it's against Gafa to say it and to act like it's true. And that >> Well, that's what I think the caller found appalling. Meaning is our say this I'm firmer than you. They never say to other people, at least the people I know, the GDA that I've dealt with in my life, the great Raban people never said to me, they never use that language like you know, I'm the fmer, I'm the elite, I'm the besser, like that's just not how you talk. You might be, you might work on it, but that attitude is anti that's the second part. >> Just to share that when I if I would ever speak to Paris about the difference between my yeshiva and a co-ed day school, I would never say we're better. Never. I tell it to our parents. There is a trade-off and there's a value system that you as a parent have to choose. Do I want more this? Do I want more exposure to Zionism, art, sports, it's a value system and I said this is the value system of my yeshiva and we're very clear about it. >> But >> so maybe to that point, >> right? Okay. Now I'll read the question that will really lead this conversation further and you know bring it to a little more practical. I was fascinated by the VA back and forth between the two of you and Rabi Smith on school culture and what different yeshiva's value. Putting all the fluffy aside, that's what that means. What's the answer in a real world? As a parent of two young teenagers with very different abilities academically, how would you suggest we approach on the one hand celebrating and pushing our older son who is capable of a tremendous amount of Tyra and will probably end up in a tata while on the other hand not having our younger son feel like a well said. And I think when we were discussing with Smith, this was what we kept that thing pushing back at him, right? Was you can't how could you behave for messy, right? for the Mitsuyen and yet celebrate the other kids. Right? So to me as I this is and I we might push we had a little bit of a conversation about this now. I think this is the job of and not just it's the job of life is to have values and to believe in the supremacy of Tyra in the we stand up for an Adam. We give to an that we don't give to other people that are wonderful people. >> So there is an objective cover and aspiration and har Smith kept using for limitra to being at this these are our role models. These are our everythings. And yet at the same time, and this is of course so much easier said than at the same time, you can't just lip service, but you have to deeply appreciate, celebrate, and hold of everyone else. You know, to me, I, you know, I have sports in my blood, so I like to use sports as a muscle. But, you know, the quarterback in football is by far the most important position on on in the game by far. Everything is the quarterback. Lahab also the quarterback is the Russash Shiva. Right. >> That's a great I hope they pull that one out for the uh opening [laughter] >> as long as they keep the Lahab. Right. And growing up, every kid wants to be a quarterback, right? And every kid wants a quarterback. And the offensive lineman, you know, little huskier, a little bigger, not as fast. >> And the offensive lineman by the coach, yes, the quarterback is treated differently. The quarterback is the leader of the team, but the offensive lineman, I don't think offensive linemen in the NFL go around feeling, you know, I'm second class. I don't get paid as much money as the quarterback. No, I think there's understanding that being on the line, being a tight end, being a quarterback has real deep value. And if that's your kus, and I'm not taking this muscle to really I'm going with it, right? And but if that's your capability and ability, then maximize it and do that. And think that as adults, I'm going to say like this. I think in elementary school and then then host adulthood, I think we do a pretty good job at this. I think when you walk around Shul and you go in your community, you know, yeah, the RV is the RV as he should be, but the Gabi is great and the guy who's helping with the Kdish and the guy who's the Balass and Missim and all of the people that are involved in the community, I think really feel that real value and celebrated for that and are respected for that. I think in elementary school because maybe we don't have this image to present most elementary schools you know we're not accept what we don't have an are you an olive you're a bay elementary school don't take kids based on their academics usually we don't have that stigma I think we're better at that also I think the challenge is in misa and then when you hit that bish stage where it seems to be the entire focus is on learning and becoming that that it's a real challenge and it's really hard to be able to do both. And I think the answer to this, a mother or father who has two sons like this, kids have an antenna to see MS and sheer straight through. And if you are someone, now I'll speak just from a Rebi, not as a parent, and the parents the same way. If you have kids in the class and you only get a gishmach and only enjoy the top kids questions, then you're in the wrong business. Then you can't that can't be this. Story happened in my yeshiva last year where a kid raised his hand in class and he asked the Rebi a question. One of the top kids in the class and the Reb's like, "Oh, nice question." And then, "Oh, we'll deal with it later." And then 20 minutes later, one of the weaker kids raised his hand and asked the Rebi the same question. And the Rebi made a yumptiff out of it. Right now, watch this. the superstar kid came over to break to the rebby and said, "Hey, that's not fair. Why didn't you do that by me?" Okay. But my point is that if you can't appreciate that kid who's not academically inclined, let's say like your younger son, but is an incredible balet, baker, singer, helper, whatever it is, if you don't appreciate it, who he is, then you're not going to allow him to maximize his. And as yeshiva, we have to do both. Or Garfield will say, well, you have to pick one. You can't just say I focus on both. There has to be a GI. No, no, no. We have to do both. Go now. Do I did a very bad imitation? >> No. It's a fair point. I was just going to add my thoughts are, you know, we've talked about this before, but Rabbi Schlomma Hoffman's philosophy about how kids really sense how we feel in our art. And you know, I was I was talking to a group of parents and I asked them, "What do you think your kids would say about how you fail if they became a plumber? Would they feel that they disappointed you? These kids could be five or 10 or 11 or 15, but how would they feel if you told them? I mean, what is their perception of how you would feel? And don't know if you know it's an avod. >> What do you want the answer to be? Do you I mean, do you want the answer to be objectively I'm fine or well listen if you're with your hands and you don't have the ability, right? What do you want the answer? >> I think the only answer has to be I accept you for who you are. I don't think there's an alternative as a parent because again but there are people I don't want to going to get like a letter from the plumbers association right but there are people that will let's assume you use pl I don't want to right there are people that will say well really my son has an ability to be a lawyer a doctor let's say let's say he really has that ability >> I don't see it that way I think we have to come to an understanding as parents that our job is to give our kids the best opportunities that we can for them and But ultimately how they either choose or develop or their life evolves is going to be up to the Kokos and experiences that we're able to provide for them. And we hope that >> but it's possible for it's possible for a child to choose and develop disappointedly. >> What about a rasha who should have been a plumber? >> What if your son was a rasha but he's miserable because he really has the nephesh to be a plumber. Do you feel bad about that? Well, that you could live with because your covet is intact. But the kid who is a plumber who should be that you're all worried about and is and is actualization. So, cut the baloney and let's just say that a parent does not have the right to mandate or to set an expectation of a specific destination. Even the can't do that. And therefore, >> therefore the answer has to be that we have to give over a genuine acceptance that our child when you have two children, one has capacity A, one has capacity B, the avoid of the parent is to work on their inner insecurities so that they're able to give over a genuine acceptance, a genuine love for both their kids equally. And if they do that, the child will understand it >> like in your muscle on the football field. >> Beautifully said. How's that? Perfect. Love it. Wow. So, regardless, we move on to our spotlight question of the week. This week, we are being joined by two guests at the same time. Just like a, you know, we're stepping up in the world. So, I'm first going to introduce the guests, then I'll read the question and we'll take it from there. So, joining us today is two very hush of a eighth grader and I was an eighth grade for a long time. So, this is maybe a little bit of a fraternity. Rabbi Noan Picus who is currently the eighth grade rebi in yeshiv katana aruven he's been eth grade for the last 15 years he's also the middle school mashki he's the owner of camp kvra my a very soughta creative dynamic eighth grade rebi shalom rabbi pis welcome to the learning curve thankf >> and also and on this corner rabbi morai fishber who I had of teaching together with very dear yadid who's the rebi in ybh He's also the Mishkn of grades one through five in ybhayic and the mifa of a great sleepa away camp a good midwest for the last if we say 23 years I've been fishing then people know that you're older than 23 I don't know if you want to say that should we say that bunch of years >> I can handle it well can fake it >> you can handle so so this is an eighth grade topic and whether you're a mother that has or a father that has eighth graders this year or next year thereafter this is obviously we're in the season. This episode is being aired when everyone's busy beginning the eighth grade suga of high schools and preparing. So, here we go. [music] Here's our spotlight question of the week. Dear TLC, my son is in eighth grade and we are firsttime parents. He's a bright kid toward the top of his class who wants to get into the best mifa possible. How should we best prepare him for the interview process? We are in a big yeshiva in town in which it seems everyone is kind of on their own. What do yeshivas look for on the fahare? Is that the most important part of the process? Am I expected or should I hire a private rebby to prepare my son to learn extra tyus with him? Should I get my RV to call the mifa? A lot of questions. And she's sincerely a nervous mom. So, a lot of questions. You can take this any way you want. You've been doing this for a while. This is your baby. you live this. So, floor is yours. >> Okay, I'll address maybe just a couple of those things. First of all, it's normal to be very nervous if it's your first time. That's a very good sign. Very often, parents that feel very comfortable that they already know what's going to happen and what should happen is not the great way to start off. From the question though, I looked at it, it doesn't tell us exactly enough of the background. I don't know if it's a very yesish, you know, type of school. I don't >> let's talk first let's talk without explaining to everyone what YBH is. YBH is a dynamic issue that has a lot of different ranges. Let's say this mother was calling you and she's an eighth grader on YBH. >> Right. Right. So I would say like this is that you definitely have to give your child every edge possible to be able to do well. Uh about the hiring they extra up. I think that's a wonderful thing. You know what could be better than more learning? I've seen for so long that the one-on-one is a completely different ball game than in a classroom setting. That's for sure. But I would also say is that you have to make sure that you're on the same page with the Rebi. It's very important that I find that parents have that conversation with the Rebi at the outset and that they're really on the same page. If the parents already have an idea of where they want to send their son and maybe the Rebi has a different idea of the Manal, then you're already not starting on the same page. In this case, it sounds over here that she's new, right? Which is a very, very good thing. I would say I think that it's a very good idea to be able to sit down face to face not just on the phone and be able to discuss the process right to tell her exactly that this is the range perhaps which is a good idea for your son to give a few ideas and our yeshiva they do give out a piece of paper with a lot of the different you know options called like that and again I guess we'll get into it as we talk more but there is a whole process of how we meet internally and then we meet with the parents and speaking with the boys but it's you know it takes time. She shouldn't be nervous. You know, from what I hear, I think most if not all, it's a big word, but I think everyone does get in eventually. If we're talking about the regular Ming Yeshiva and if ready to put in the work and the parents are working with the Rebi and the Met, then it's going to turn out really nice. So, just to finish this thought, is your main I don't want to like give her your trade secrets here, but is your main agenda I taught eighth grade for nine years. Is your main agenda in class to prepare them for the fare to get them into high school or teach them the skills that they need in eth grade? Now, maybe they're not a steer, maybe they're not a contradiction, but are you is it like a an emphasis in your classroom to prepare the kids for the fair? It's definitely not an emphasis that's overt in the classroom, especially since they spend the whole year telling them that they're not learning to get into Mifa, they're learning to be successful, etc. And telling them doing that would be a bad idea. I do things like certain tests as we get closer to that time I'll give a test on a full blot and then I have a test where I call in visiting Rabonim to test them orally on gumar rashitis so they get a little bit of the experience of how to prepare for a fare etc without telling them that's what I'm doing I mean they usually can figure that part out but I don't emphasize it because it becomes then a source of stress you know one thing you don't want an eighth grader to think every everything they do oh get into don't get into ETA and then you turn into a miserable experience. So I don't emphasize it in the classroom. I actually try and you know whenever kids ask about it say come talk to me privately we could always talk but not to actually you know focus on the missa conversation um in class but obviously there are things that I do within the teaching that does you know help out and gear them towards the mifaair process as well besides obviously just being successful. Would you say that most kids in the end ra picus get to a place that they're comfortable with or is it really a a big thing to find the right place and you know not everyone is to it >> right so I'll tell you in the 15 years that I've been doing this there were only two kids who as of June did not have a place and both of very unique circumstances one of whom had actually gone into yeshiva and then promptly got themselves out of it when they asked for extra testing for their kid the extra test said no never mind we don't want them so that was one of the two as far as getting into the place that they wanted etc I have found 90% of the time or more if the kid really belonged in that yeshiva >> and they when they run the process they did get in now obviously there are some years where the crowd it's a little more crowded the field you know for certain yeshivas and therefore they may not have gotten to choice number one but very rarely have I found at least with people who went about the process correctly was there someone who got to yeshiva that wasn't on their list. There may have been a couple kids disappointed again to number one, but almost everyone if not everyone got into yeshiva that was on their original list. >> Yeah, that's wonderful. Right. Fishburg, do you have the same experience? >> Yeah. Yeah, I do to be honest. In fact, I think I mean at least our track record is that the kids almost I can't give a percentage but it's definitely very high get into exactly where they want to get into. Maybe it crosses over to, you know, the shik problem that maybe, you know, there's a lot of girls and maybe by the girls school might be different and by the boys just putting that out there. I don't know. But it seems like seems like it works. >> Wrong wrong episode. Different episode. >> It seems though that for the boys for the high school though is that it does work. That it does work and they get in. But one thing I will say is that very often in many of these yeshivas or high schools, whatever we're going to call them, is that you know there's tracks. There's different levels and not always will every boy get into perhaps that share that he's looking forward towards and that maybe will be again part of the conversation as we go along but that might happen then you got to work towards that or might that might not happen till later on in the year when they're in ninth grade or 10th grade. >> I know the four of us are in four different yeshivas and this dynamic specifically that I'm about to talk about is really varies and what I mean is there are yeshivas that are tracked in seventh and eighth grade. So that makes the job of rebi obviously much easier in a certain sense. My yeshiva is not tracked. There's only one class. So I don't know Houston I don't know you know ybhr or ruin. If the classes are not tracked then you have a class in 8th grade where the range of learning goes from certain kids that are ready for a tis and a mara and aer and certain kids that are still working on their korea skills. So you walk into a classroom where one kid wants to get into the top massifa in America and one kid you're really trying to get into the resource room you know high school of the local yeshiva and how do you know as the kids get older it becomes much harder to teach the middle you want to prepare everybody for that fare so how do you on a practical level I'll open to this to the floor you know I I'm gonna show what I did I was eighth grade rebby I went there by fish versus I literally had a range that was ginormous And I had kaburas on chabas and I would say it I was almost I was pretty open. It's not on the test. It's and I lived in the neighborhood and so everyone else much easier. And I said if you are applying to the following four yeshivas then there are tyus in that we don't cover in class they will be on the faher and therefore you should come to this you know to the chabas and we're going to learn for an hour where these tyis and those seven or eight kids would come right that's a minefield in a classroom I don't know what they do in Houston I don't know they do in my so I could tell you about my at least by us so we happen to have a unique system which you've seen Rabbi Shonfeld and that we do something called station rotation. So we actually divide the class up to groups within the class. So there are times everyone's together there are times they're broken up into groups and because of that I can track them within the classroom so that there are some kids who will do an entire taste. >> How many kids how many kids are in your class this year? >> I have 28 kids in my class. >> Very like a Lakewood school. It's a small >> Gosh. There's one eighth grade or two. >> There's one eighth [clears throat] grade. Yes. But I I do have two other who come in for parts of the day to help complement the system. And there are times where I have everybody together and there are times where we're divided up into these groups. Sometimes groups are independent. But because I have these groups, so some kids will do a full taste, some kids will do half a taste test, and some kids might not do the tastes at all. So we're able to cater it >> to each one tests to different kids. >> I make four different tests for each test. >> Whoa. Wow. >> You make me look really bad, Rabus. [laughter] >> Well, I can tell you the secret of how it's not as hard, but why give that away if it makes me look >> No, don't give that away in terms of what computers do. But, but you give four different tests every week. And the kids are not. My father told me when he was a kid and see Shisha growing up, the Rebby split the class into rows. There was the rashiva row, the butcher row, the ais plumber row. [laughter] >> That's an earlier reference. Because your kids don't mind being quote unquote labeled on the different tests that they're taking. Whoa. >> So again, they can move up. You know, if a kid comes and says, "I don't want to be in that group." And he wants to move up a group. Obviously, if he's totally not able to want, no problem. But then they look and they see that the other group's doing more work. And usually they're quite happy with it. Plus, we do a lot of things together. >> So, it's, you know, they don't mind having an easier task. They don't mind not having extra work. If anything, you know, sometimes the bigger complaints come from the kids who are in the higher groups in certain subjects. Why are we getting more work? Um, that's a bigger issue we have. Yeah, there's a little discomfort sometimes right in the beginning. I'm pretty open about it. The parents know about it in advance. They know that say how do how do you present it? >> Well, in in >> how do you present the fact that we're going to have four stations with four levels and not hurt kids feelings and not like not single out and who gets to pick what group they're in? How do you So day one I'm already giving them the speech which they gave him before groups about yes in today's world we stuff everyone into the same room and expect everyone to be in the same spot but we're all aware that everyone has different strengths different weaknesses and the key is to be to be growing at all times and therefore you know I tell them like straight up I treat everybody differently I mark tests differently I told them you can't show someone else your test because there's some kids I mark an answer correct And some kids will mark the same answer half correct because I understand that everyone's different. Everyone has their own level. And the kids appreciate that. And very few kids in eighth grade have no idea where they're holding. So you have a kid who dreads coming to yeshiva because he can't keep up. And now I'm putting him in a group where he can keep up and be comfortable and have a five or six or seven onone relationship with the rebi that's teaching. I could ask questions without feeling like he's, you know, that kid. They end up appreciating it. So, like I said, there are a couple times the first day or two a kid will come, I don't know. Usually, I'll say, "Listen, give it a few days and then we'll discuss it." But if a kid really wants to move up, okay, so I move them up a group. You know, >> Pittsburgh, you what? How do you do this in the classroom? >> I have a whole different approach. First of all, we do have a remedial class. So, and I have less boys this year. Some years I've had more this year. I have only 17 boys in the class and three of them go out for Gammorum. So, it's a very, I would call it easier for me. But my approach is like this is that the 14 boys, they all know so to say who is more at the top of the class and whom perhaps struggles. I teach to everybody everything and I want them all. >> What does everything mean? You're teaching enough that the top kid can sit up at Pittsburgh's class and get into Philly potentially. >> No, he means he teaches Nav' local. >> No, no, no, no, no, it's not. I'm talking specifically Gamar now. I exactly what Ari just said. I teach the class that if they're at that level then yes to such a yeshiva which we've been able to send to we'll be able to get there. My my philosophy what is that >> I want them to reach for the stars even if it's above their reach. However, when it comes to the actual testing when it comes to actual so then I obviously work at it very differently. For example, I'll say that it's a closed gamarra test. if you need to open up the gammorra for a question. So that's right next to the question and I opened up the gammorra or for the rashi or for the tis or whatever we're talking about. But basically I don't want anyone in the classing to feel that I'm teaching one boy one way another boy another way. I do say very often when I I call like to dive deep or whatever it is to go into things whether it's an aan or whatever it might be that I said this is not necessarily for everybody and no one you're not going to be responsible for this necessarily on the test but I want everybody to hear it and I my style is that I write all the notes on the board. I'm not a computer, you know, whiz as you just saw. That's why that's right. That's reason why >> I use less technology than anybody. >> I've seen your amazing amazing sheets on on beautiful. I wish I would be able to do that, but I don't do like that. I literally write the notes on the whiteboards. I have two whiteboards and everybody's taking notes. I each have a one of those hard, you know, type of workbooks. Everyone's writing it. Some kids will be able to spit that back on a test or in an oral. Some won't, but everyone's hearing everything and then we sort of say I make the classroom I think you know you know like level. I'm curious about how honest you are when you're helping a kid get into massifa. Like if he's a little, you know, a little little ADHD, he gets in trouble. Like do you really tell the manal everything or do you are you strategically judicious and hope that sometimes you have to sort of sneak him in? >> So I'll give my answer. I am very honest with the menalum because they know I'm honest and therefore if I tell them that this kid's going to be good, they're going to take them because they know I'm telling them the truth. Now, obviously, there are times I won't volunteer certain information if they don't ask. But if there's something that's going to come up and then they're going to come back with tightness, how come you didn't tell this to me next time when the kids come and apply, they're going to not take me very seriously anymore? So, the answer is I'm honest, but at the same time, my goal is to get the kids in. So, I take that approach. I take that tact and say what I need to say to get them in. But at the same time, if there is something that Manal has to know and he's going to find out, I'm better off telling it to him and that obviously I'll paint in the positive way as much as I can. But overall, I've had, you know, there was a certain man used to call after Ferris, ask him how he goes. He would say exactly the way you said it's going to go. And when you have that relationship with the manalum, they listen to you and I can say, "Listen, he's a little weaker in this. He's stronger in this, but I'm telling you, he'll do very well by you. He'll take me seriously and may take a kid who otherwise perhaps he wouldn't have taken just on site." >> You know, it just appeared when I was an eighth grade rebby. My biggest battle with my higa, you know, assistant man that now he's the I think the man at Pearlstein was report cards. I was now I could say because I'm not eighth grade anymore. I was never honest on report cards. Every kid got an olive. my everything like we supposed to get a baby. He's got an alpha mine like and you would say to me and I said I bet Pearlstein I have one job and one job only. My kids have to get into Mipa and if the yeshivas are silly enough just to look at report cards I'm not going to take a obviously a kid that gimmel plus but I would way overrate report cards always. So now that I'm not a rebi anymore I could admit to that. So that but you know in terms of that nuda first I don't know what this I don't know how they still are in pose. Well, Rabbi Proin's still here and I gotta be careful because you might listen to those. [laughter] But my approach is very similar to Roya Pigus. I happen to tell the boys that I'm going to be brutally honest with them. I said that I have a reputation. They're going to call me next year and I got to be, you know, straight on. However, when I do speak to the I don't necessarily say the full picture. If they ask me then I'm very honest and I say it but I would necessarily offer everything. Some questions are basic. Sometimes they get specific. Very often they'll call back after the interview the and then they'll ask more specific and then sort of say you can't skirt the issue. But I would say that again I think a big mandate of an of an eighth grade rabbi is to make sure that every boy gets into a you know a good massa a good yeshiva like they want to. And therefore not everything has to be said at the outset. You know it could be said a little bit later on the process. I would like to add there's sorry I'm sure I just said one thing. There is one yeshiva that on their application they have a question. What is the biggest? I have never filled out that question. I leave it blank. The question is pointless. So same thing. I don't volunteer information that's not necessary. You'll find out as big as Khisar. You want to ask me about him? I'll tell you about him. You're going to find out as Bill Cisarin. If you're a good yeshiva and good reb you'll find out. But I wouldn't answer a question like that. >> Wow. Do you find that hairs generally are fair? In other words, are they trying are they playing got you? Is it detective work? I know it's unfair because every yes I is different but by and large the ninth grade the manal one of the challenges you know is that they're not holding in mak you think you both teach makers right? So they, you know, they don't, but they know Makas from their from Ferris, right? Molton, Ninth Gibb, and Allan, they know Makas from the questions that they're asking. >> Not in Philly. Trust me, they know it. >> Yeah. But you know, like like I would a lot of my tid would apply to Shia and Queens. So I knew the questions and now I'm like outing myself. So I would give them the questions. Like guys, when a rela is going to ask you on DA, he's gonna and a reli gets so angry at me like and he would say to them, he wants to ask the kid a question. And the kid gave him the answer like bam and he says told you didn't [laughter] but like are we in sync with your level of learning your preparation of how a kid reads and then he goes for a fair and then is the fare fair for lack of a better word of a fishburg is it fair >> okay so so there is something I want to say I'm going to segue into that but I want to maybe open up a can of wor ones the way that I see the playing field out there is that there's really three different types of mist There's something which I would call a high school, something which I would call a misa, and something which I would call a yeshiva. >> Let me try to be mock >> again. A high school, a mitzvah, and a yeshiva. >> And listen, if someone want if someone wants to dis disagree with I'm going to say, I'll give my phone number and we'll discuss it. >> I would say like this, they're all learning and they're all academically strong. The rebim today are amazing. I've seen a lot. I've heard a lot. It's wonderful. But a high school perhaps has more programming, you know, more outside stuff. Perhaps they take, you know, their to a game, you know, or maybe let's say as an incentive for, you know, raising money for the MSA, you know, I've heard a for things that not necessarily you would find in a massa and a yeshiva now to make the between the ma and yeshiva without >> Yeah, that's what I'm excited for. high school offers jackal studies. I mean some obviously stronger than you know others. >> Well I I Wow. We should like press pause and have parents who thinks they know the difference between a yeshiva and a sister Garfield. Do you know? >> Yeah I could imagine I but yeah let him say >> I'm going at it with some parents about this but I think I'm on to something and it has to do with my experience of going through the system. Uh there are tremendous missipas out there. The reb are phenomenal. the level of learning is high and let's go to the right way. They're wearing the jackets, the hats, the white shirts, the the shoes, the whole business and everything, but there's so many of them and let's just say they haven't been around for many years and not necessarily and this have to be careful, right? Because it's being reported is that it has let's say a strong long uh serving msora. A yeshiva very often has a very deep nisra wall. It very often has a kyo that you're looking at. It has rashivas. It has a messia. It has the goalposts way down the road of just a high school reb who could be phenomenal. It's a different type of look. I'll say some yeshiva's names. Can we say names Ari or we're keeping it very uh let's go. Let's be provocative. So I went through Chicago tells and I remember >> oh that's a high school right that's a high school and it's a who was a mayor you know my whole growing up I heard always that like right either about cats we felt that we were living Europe right now I'm dating myself but that was the feel I Remember Elsman when we finally got through Russia Shana it was like a weight was off our chest that we got one down one to go so to say you lived it the double Musader >> but how many how many yeshivas are there 10 12 >> but we're again but there are out there there are yeshivas out there with the messiah and you know the names are going through your heads of those right >> but the point is that that it's there's a very deep goal >> what's the therefore >> what I'm getting there a mifto you know Again, it's tremendous and they have verb and this and that, but it could be that it's just, you know, it's younger people that are in their 40s and 50s and it is what it is. And not to say they're giving over misra from a generation beforehand, right? Again, tells us very heavy on that, right? Whether it's the of the ding or whether it's, you know, the whatever it is. So therefore, when you're I guess speaking to a parent, you have to also talk to them like what type of experience, what are they looking for? What type of yeship are they? What do they want their kids looking at? In other words, what's really the endgame? Very often you want to find out where are they graduating and where are these boys going and what so to say the again the long game over here. It could be just to have a very strong you know misa experience or it could be that you know this is really you know so say mahalas of life that they want my son I want my son to be able to be fleish or to be you know whatever you know that's the that's the m so these things very often because you're putting a kid on a trajectory in ninth grade and I'm living proof of it I came from Cleveland Ohio uh the heights I was in the Hebrew Academy for calling yeshivish all about the Cleveland Indians and the Browns. That was it then and which is a little bit sad definitely for the Browns fans. But because of one individual and sort of like my mother letting things go, I ended up in Chicago tells and from there I went out there and ended up by Reb Salvich and the rest is history. I'm sitting here only because of that because I went it could have been very diff but I went into a system that there was you know so to say you want to be able to that was the goal. So again, that's I think that it's a very big part of the conversation and that Yeah, >> I wonder and maybe either of you could answer this if the more massifa places are a little more student flexible than the yeshivas. When I think of the bigger yeshivas, like the one you mentioned, but not specifically, I think of like colder, larger institutionalized places. And if you need your kid to like, you know, you need something flexible, it's much harder to get that done. while in MFA with these younger guys they're a little more attuned and flexible. Would you say that's a tradeoff perhaps? >> No, I personally might say it's a trade. I say it's a valid point and it's definitely true. You know there's many yeshivas that you have to be very self motivated and you're not going to get so to say that lot of TLC and outside of you know by the repos but there's you know many missipets that also don't necessarily offer that. Obviously, you will see it more by a small than the yeshiva, but you have to know the kid. You know, there are some kids that are autopilot kids that don't need that, and there's some kids that are need that TLC. So, that's reason pull is great. Pull is incredibly important because, you know, pull is what it is. >> Hey, so obviously there are some there are some yeshivas that, you know, can totally push back and not use any pull. But the fact remains, yeah, if you're the Rashiva's grandson or if you happen to be, you have the same name as your father who donated $100 million to the school. I don't know of any of these people. I'm just saying if it happened, obviously pull is pull and the more pull you have, the better. It was advocate who got into yeshiva because he was a neighbor of the manal rashiva of the yeshiva and he couldn't say no. So pull is obviously good, but you shouldn't panic if you don't have it. A lot of people blame pole for not getting in. Poll is what gets three or four kids in. Yes, you may end up being that one person who lost out to that because you were both fighting over the last spot. But yes, if you have pull of any type, of course you should use it, unless it's going to like bring a red flag while using pull if you have such a great kid. But outside of that, pull is an amazing thing. And is it always fair? No. But that's life. >> How has it changed over the last, let's say, 15 years? Is it, you know, are there more, is it easier to get to achieve? Is it harder? is the standards greater the standards are like there more places so it's easier how would you say it changed >> so in my we've actually exploded how many yeshivists there are now um for people 20 to 25 yeshivas that they can go to and then come back they're not all necessarily in my but that people in my go to and sleep in their own beds at night so because of that >> over 20 mipas in my today >> just yeshivas in high schools >> on TV >> can you break that up how Yeshiva. Yeah. Continue. >> I don't want to insult anyone. I still got to get the kids in. But so so in that regard, there's there are at the moment usually enough spots available. You know, sometimes one yes is incredibly popular one year and all sen everybody wants to go there and then it's a little harder. But generally speaking because of that it hasn't necessarily changed that much. And you know because the main choices the kids are going to have maintained the same onhole and staff. So I'm speaking with the same people. Kids have changed the world just sometimes yeshiva change. Some yeshivas are able to just maintain exactly who they are and nothing changes. And there's some yeshivas that listen there are stronger classes there are weaker classes. You know throughout sometimes I'll find I'll speak to the reim of others and who find out it's not just my class that was difficult this year. It's all the eighth grades. So there are times where just you have a weaker year. There are times where your yeshiva can have a weaker or stronger year. So I haven't found much of a change in my particular process. >> We do mak we do in wcom makaharas in which we literally boys make believe I put on my big beard or beard and I make believe whatever and I have each boy come in individually. Do they do that officially they do know YBH you know you said being do you go through that process literally act out of and try to get them ready so I'll answer for us yes we do the manalim we have two of them one's Rosha Mossad and one is the manal and they break up all the boys and they do a makahare part of the fahare in some of the places because again we're talking about a big range over here is that how you present yourself can you talk normally you know yeah how you sit they ask some of the questions that they know are going to be asked from again knowing what happened in the past and >> what your hobbies are what and don't say playing PS4 even if you play PS4 right you say gardening and doing working for we have a whole live I have a whole game I play with these guys with my kids >> that's but they do go through it and they also they ask them to read you know obviously each boy what's I guess is expected and we find out from the different I mean over the peers and find out from the different yeshivas, massas, high schools, whatever it is, what type of fah they give. They all give different types. Some, you know, really will ask on, you know, the first three, four blood of what you learned. Some will ask just specifically, you know, what you prepared. And some really just want to see you read a little bit and then they're asking you a bunch of other questions, >> right? >> So, I'll say similar. You know, I used to do mockeries one-on-one and I would do certain things like I would even I would I know their weaknesses. So, I would get them to make a mistake so they could learn. You could make a mistake on a fare. Don't lose your composures. Keep your confidence. But when I went from classrooms that were Rabbi Fishberg's size to now 28 kids, Machar would take one time. Also, you have now we'll call them high schools that are doing fahar in November. And then you have mas and yeshivas that are doing it and later. And it's so when do you do your mach and what about the kids you already took? So that got harder. But I definitely talked to the kids and like Rishberg said, I know of one missif. I actually asked Amal said, imagine the kid comes to his bar mitzvah and you say, well, we know you know this week's parlay next week. Um, I said, you know, but but what I do is I tell the kids in advance, I'm letting you know when you go for this for her, they're probably not going to ask you on the Gomorrah. Once they come in and they know that so they can't have a complaint there and they can be prepared. So yes, I'm aware of how many of them work. I'm going to let them know. But I do think that people should realize that yes, how you perform on the Fare from Kishenus, etc. does play a role in various places. but also how you present yourself. They look at you. Do you fit into my yeshiva? Maybe you know this really well because you prepared it or maybe you made a mistake because you're nervous, but they do pick up a lot of things that are not related to the actual thing you're reading. Sometimes you may not even be listening, but they're looking for a lot of different factors and different things they see. I also think that the faharas tend to be in a lot of places maybe not the yeshivas but the mifas and the high schools to the advantage of the the tamid because I've you know a lot obviously we speak beforehand and the the shivas do their research and they may have their mind 60 or 70% made up beforehand and then a kid comes in and blows them away in the air and they're like I I like this kid I see something there. Rarely has it happened where it's been the opposite. It has a couple times. Usually it's cuz the kid doesn't want to go to the yeshiva, so he bombed. But very rarely has someone said, "I don't know. You told me this kid's great and he did terrible because they spend a lot of time preparing." But I have I do know multiple cases where kids got into yeshivas that perhaps it was tilted the other way because they performed very well in the fare. Is Houston similar? Regardful of this whole sugas have a certain common denominator. I think the three of our but is Houston does this is this jingy with you? >> First of all, we have a local massa named itself named that by itself. I didn't call it that. It is called the massa of Houston. >> And it's not a yeshiva yes. >> I don't know. That's their name. I didn't discuss it with them. >> Well, what's their miser? You're in trouble for this. What's their misra? What's their >> Philly? Philly. They're Philly boys. Anyway, but so I would say 90% or higher go there. So it really changed the dynamic a lot and it's a whole different thing. Can you imagine teaching a grade where there's no pressure to get into ninth grade. So like that's sort of what we're dealing with. There are ye who want to go out of town and we sort of help them individually. One of the things that I'm curious about is general studies. Do you find the massifas want to know about how they behave or how they achieve in general studies or it's like no one even cares? >> Yeah. All answer the question. Please don't answer. This is an illegal question because the only thing no one one of the only things that keeps my sixth, seventh, and eighth graders and you shoot them Manhattan achieving and behaving is the threat of they're going to get you report cards. So the answer is yes. They look at report cards. They look at grace, look at behavior that at the end of the sentence, [laughter] >> especially behavior. >> My experience has been >> really I'm sorry that that I've seen that a lot of these I got myself into, you know, something over here. whatever you want to call, they really know even beforehand what's coming down. I don't know how, but it seems like they're very well informed. Uh some of them are really uh you know going after certain kids, you know, early in the game. Some parents told me they get text messages very often. >> Really? Wow. Wow. >> Yeah. It's really something. So, you know, again, like like like Vik just said, they sometimes can be blown away and therefore it can change. But I've seen in my experience that very often they know really what they're looking for. >> Report cards are not a real big deal. >> No, I wouldn't say that. They do look at and obviously there's a red flag, but for some reason they seem to already know a lot even before they see that report card. You know, I share with my talum a story that happened that I was trying to help get a boy as he wasn't in my yeshiva into a certain mifa yeshiva into a certain yeshiva and I spoke to a shashiva and he says it literally said to me he said two or three spots left 20 kids they're all the same profile the diesel so we looked at their English report card behavior >> and the boy that you're trying to get in >> has a lot of eyes and fminuses is and compared to the other boys. So I use that now. >> So I use that now when I walk into seventh and eighth grade classrooms. I now have a real life story that I don't have to make up before. I used to make up the story but now it's actually a real life story of the consequences of your effort and and the way in which you take general studies in middle school. >> So disclaimer here. I do work for MFA as well. You know Yeshiva Ruain has a tremendous >> aha. What? Nothing. Okay. That joke has been Yeah, we killed that joke. Way to go. Yeah. Ruven as a great misa um and so but I've also been involved to some degree in the process so I do know you know what they look at so there are a couple things first of all happens to be that the secular studies department does look at it and there are you know c definitely red flags that come up but like kind of what you were saying if you see a kid who's you know let's say you said you have 20 kids who are all well and then you see a kid who does very well in secular studies assuming they're being honest in their report cards assuming they're being honest there you see a kid that now you know he's a kid who takes things. >> Don't felt me. No, excuse me. Don't be felt me. Rabbi Pas, you are brutally honest in your eighth grader report cards and don't bump it up so he can get into the misa. >> Correct. >> You don't. >> Correct. >> Rabbit Fishber, do you? >> Almost correct. >> What's the matter with you guys? >> I shouldn't say this, but they changed the report card settings. I'm not able to give certain grades. >> What does that mean? And they change things for everyone because of me. What does it mean? Because I am honest. Again, I'm very gentle, very positive. But it is what it is. Again, if something has it could change whatever they want if they send it to the Mifa and generally speaking, they get the seventh grade report cards anyway. Some get the eighth grade, but some of them they already applied before I gave out a report card. So, they don't have an eighth grade report card. >> And Bari didn't do well. I haven't had to give very many report cards that were disqualifiers. Yeah. Yeah, it goes through my mind etc. You know, and if you read the lead that she walked into PTA panties conference with her son's report card and it was straight olives and she said to the rebby, are you my son's rebby? >> Is this my son? And he says, "Mrs. So and so that was for the mifas. Come, let's talk about your tatala." >> I think it's more risky when it goes the other way. The first time they get say what happened straight gimbals gum. I don't get it. The other gave them straight olives and then we fooled everybody and then you're in the right spot. So I am honest obviously it goes through my mind but yes my report cards are honest but remember I do teach to the kids and most or all the kids do well and if a kid's not doing well he needs to go to Mifa for a kid you know who needs that extra work but when they see I was about to secards if they see a kid with A's they see a kid who takes things seriously a kid who wants to be successful kids are hard worker and massifas like those kids and yeshivas and high schools >> yes >> wonderful well as we sort of wrap You know, let's just end it on the following. A sixth grade parent is listening. A fifth grade parent is listening. This is not Lameisa. It's pre-lais. What is the final message that you would have? Let's start with Ray Fishber. What's the final message you would have to that fifth or sixth grade parent who wants to like orient their child so when the seventh and eighth grade come, they're ready. What advice would you give them? >> That's a great question. And uh one of the things I would say is that parents have to listen and look at their child like almost like look at the shama very often I've seen parents that sort of like want to live vicariously through their child's high school now experience which is coming up and the high school that the parent might have gone to maybe it's the same name even things change they very much change and therefore what might have been good for you is very different than your child I had a mother just last night tell me that we're not a yeshivish the family but my child is talking about a missipa that he wants you know yeshivish could you please help me that was music to my ears I mean 100% I'm going to help her you know what I mean because she's realizing that we might be coming from one place my husband might have gone through one thing but that's not for my son >> I would say for parents that are sixth grade and seventh grade you see your child already going in a direction as they're looking at the older boys right the way they dress spending any extra time outside of school learning. I'll be honest with you, when I again went through the system, you know, I think the hugus at least where I was much lower today, the house are tremendous. I remember the first time that I looked in the and I saw that Long Beach Shiva made a musa and you had a whole I couldn't believe it like so many boys finished. who's doing like was a today that's like almost you know part for the course you know you open up the the masa you open anything they're all pictures everyone's making the we had I have a boy in my class that just had his bar mitzah even though norm's in seventh grade but it's in eth grade he finished shisha mishna I was there at bar mitzah I couldn't believe it I mean the now to finish he told me he had to learn three mishnay every day and this is going back do the math right So he started not in grade, he started way beforehand. So when parents see that my kid is motivated, my kid wants he's going a certain direction, you have to sort of like feed that maybe next to Kusa outside, you know, with a rebby or whatever it is. Obviously a kid has to play. You need that outlet, but you have to be able to see your child as he's going up and be able to hopefully complement what the kids really ask before, even though they might not be saved yet. >> Right. Bicas, do you have a answer? First thing I tell the sixth grade parent to stop calling me. I'll talk to you in eighth grade. But if you want a general message, the first thing I would tell them is that number one, relax. Because getting into Mifa and just being successful are the same thing. What you do is be a good parent, work with your kids, see what he needs, and make sure he's being successful. And as Rabbi Fishbrook said, make sure you know who your kid is so that when it comes time to make that decision, you could look at the right places. When you speak with other people, you have to realize there are people who know, there are people who don't know, and then there are people who talk. So if you go to a parent who's happy in the massa, they'll tell you they're happy. If you go to someone who's upset, they'll tell you that the yeshivas have fault. But if you go to the parent who's happy and you say, "What are you happy about?" And they'll tell you, "Oh, I love this and this." You say, "Oh, are those the things I'm happy about?" etc., etc. So that's how you do research. Trust or obey him. And you know, don't just, you know, yenta around and then class chat it out. You're going to end up sending your kid to school where his friends are going, but they may not be the same kid versus actually making a wise decision. And finally, you have to realize there's a goal and there's the first step. Ninth grade isn't the goal. And too many people have tried to go to Brisk directly from 8th grade, if you excuse the metaphor. And you're not going there. It's what's the step that's going to get me to where I want to be? What do I want my son to look like when he's 20, when he's 23? And what's the best path to get there? And everyone has a different path. And we all tend to converge on the same three or four yeshivas by the time we're said and done, at least within certain, you know, fields. And therefore, what's the plan? What does your son need? You know, in 11th grade, he can move in in base medish. He'll pick a place. I think most of us probably had experiences where one of the places went to whether it was ninth grade, 11th grade, base medish or whatever that ended up shaping us. So keep that in mind. Know who you are, know who your kid is, have a plan, just be successful, work hard, and don't stress out about it. >> Rabbi Garfield, wonderful. Well, thank you. >> I'm sorry to but I love the t on Rabbi Shfeld. So if I could just I mean it's just the four of us here, so if I could just bring it out, >> please. As hard as it is for me to allow that to go on, I'll make an exception. >> Okay. >> How can I help you fish? Yes. >> There's a very big subject about this which we didn't talk about. I thought that Ra would definitely bring it up and that is the boy who might be entertaining going to an out of town the dorming you know versus dorming and I don't think we could end the session without talking about that for a minute. So I >> so so fishburg I have now tinus on you >> because this means that you don't listen to the learning curve because we dealt with this extensively on a previous episode >> extensive fishber's uh approach. >> So I'm just saying though I'm sorry listen to out of towner from Cleveland to discuss the pros and cons of a dorm. But I'm just saying if you were a real average listener you would just you would know the sugi well but continue. Yes. >> I'm sorry. I was busy preparing my eighth graders for yeshiva. Okay. >> So the I heard that again from >> just just as by the way people that don't people think the band here me and Fishburg are incredible dear Yadim we were parallel we taught together we sit Thursday nights in together. We do everything together treats his teach on his bad side. >> That's right. That's right. >> Micas and I live at Bsber together. And it's you should know it's important to listen everything rebel does. I was on a class trip once with other yeshivas >> and a kid comes over to me. He's like he heard my name being called. Are you rebas? I'm like yeah. I'm like all excited right? He's like can you ask to give me a shout out on nights America? So because I was mentioned Night America that's how I became famous. >> We'll edit this entire session but yeah go ahead go. Yeah no >> problem. So I think like this again I heard that you know Kamki said that I guess unless there's a real exception a boy should be home to be 16. I think that's what they've said maybe a term whatever >> I I heard that myself from him on multiple occasions. >> Okay. So obviously you know one of the gelor who might say any different but however from again my experience what I've seen is that every boy's different every boy is a para very often to go out of town is really a big answer. There are many amazing massifas, amazing that do are out of town and that do a phenomenal job. That has to be a conversation also with the parents with them now with the revi. One mother recently just told me she said she cannot send her son out of town whatsoever. She can't part. Another mother told me that last year they we I guess we were successful to let it happen and he went and it just took her a few weeks to all of a sudden get over it. The kid is thrilled, she's thrilled, you know, it's just that initial. So again, it has to be a conversation and for the right boy it is the right decision and obviously it's not the right. >> I've heard from Kabeski myself on a phone call that he said the best yeshiva is the hybrid. This was a boy that got into Philly and told him not to go to Philly because it's a dorm and he said if you have John Ba but he's the yeshiva that you can go to dorm during the week but you can go home for shabas you know you have the best of both worlds. So there's a lot on the dorming. So yes, I think parents have this automatic knee-jerk reaction that dorming is like the most dangerous thing in the world and it's horrible and exposure and there's no accountability. There are tremendous mileas >> to dorming yeshivas that have to be you know almost like parents have to like take a chill pill and have a real conversation with it as opposed to just saying what you said fishburg no we won't dorm only local >> boom you know end conversation >> right >> I think dorming overall is more of a personal conversation than a general conversation the only thing I would agree here is that if everyone's listening if the rebby mentions it so consider it in other words don't close anything out of the realm of possibility as far is whether it's the right idea, who it's for, who it's not for. I think that's generally a private conversation, Rebe and parents, etc. >> All right. Wonderful. Well, thank you both. This is really great. And your both of your talid and your perspective schools and communities are very lucky to have you as rebum and advocates and adviserss because it's uh certainly makes a big difference. You have great batting averages. >> So, thank you so much. >> We appreciate it. Okay. >> So, that was an extensive, you know, deep dive into the suga of eighth graders. I hope that parents of eighth graders, seventh, sixth have a little bit of a window really into what rebum h how I I find how nuanced rebim are and how you know complex it is that they you know the different types of kids and different it's a real it's an art to be an eighth grade rabian to try to help parents navigate that high school scene the scene we spoke to two superstars I hope that every my rabbi shustster manhattan is another superstar but this was I think a very revealing thrilling and refreshing conversation to hear how just like on it on every single topic and every point eth >> and it was very optimistic because they both said that most kids by majority the large majority kids end up where they need to be if you do it right >> and so that's that's encouraging you know >> y >> all right well thank you so much for joining us on another episode of the learning curve we always ask our listeners to share with us their feedback their thoughts and their questions so we could feature Two ways to do it. One is sending us an email [email protected]. Spell it out thelearningcurve mishbah.com. Or alternatively, you can leave a voice message. The number to leave that message is 4436869339. That's 44366869339. Until next time, Rabbi Shfeld, it's always a pleasure. >> Take care, Rabbi. Bye-bye. >> All the best.