S2 Eps 13. Let's Talk Raising Balanced Children (feat. Rabbi Nosson Muller)

We're raising a generation of young people who are very observant but they're not religious. >> I always think like domining for me for boys I always like equated to sneas for girls. It's like the topic that somehow we cannot get right in the system and somehow we do more damage than good. Most of the teenage bachim are in the back smoozing and his assumption is had their fathers have been there they would not be. Welcome to the learning curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaka magazine. >> We are raising children in a changing and challenging world. >> So let's tackle the important issues facing from families today. >> I am Rabbi Garfield Manal of Yeshiva Terrace Emis in Houston and I love talking about I am Rabbi Iris Shfeld Manahana of Manhattan, based tipper of Manhattan and director of camp. I also love talking and sometimes fishing. Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. And welcome back to another episode of the learning curve. As we continue to discuss the important matters of as we continue to hear from the parents, our previous episode about anxiety was uh wellreceived definitely in my family. But the yeshiva is winding down which means everyone is so calm as graduations are starting to perk up. End of year celebrations and usal and rabbi are like what do we do with ourselves? It's so >> we're going to be so sad. >> Yes. Yes. And also we have to plan next year during while that's all going on. So it's like you know funny to do. But hashem, fear not. In the summer, some of us find some fun, engaging activities to do. What do you do, Rabbi? In the summer, >> someone, you know, I'm looking for a division head because a couple met visions are getting married. >> Says to me, >> hey, wouldn't Ry Garfield be great? Why don't >> I'm already married though. >> So, first of all, I can't imagine your wife would want to come to the camp. She'd probably stay in Houston. And second of all, I said, have you listened to any of our podcasts? He doesn't know camp. He doesn't do camp. He doesn't like camp. He's against camp. Especially because especially because the fact that we don't have kids, we don't give kids cell phones to call home. >> That I'm against. I'm against camps that don't let kids call home like like similar to the prison in El Salvador >> or Alcatra. >> Other than that, I'm not against >> you. But we should maybe send our avid listeners now that Barashem our reach in season two has more than doubled season one that in toward the end of season one of one of those episodes maybe four actually I'm trying to remember I don't remember exactly um we spoke camps with Cassus and Mr. Selenot so really go back into the archives and you could listen to an enjoyable camp episode back when we were young. >> Oh yeah in experience. Now we're now we're experts. >> All right here we go. Well, let's get some questions going. I'm going to ask you the first question and uh let's get into it. Here we go. Are schools challenging gifted students enough or are they being left to coast? My son is always bored. Should I be stepping in or is this something a the school should deal with? Who's responsible for keeping bright kids engaged and helping them thrive? >> So, who's responsible for keeping bright kids engaged and helping them thrive in a school setting? The school. At the home setting, the parents. In other words, I have a very it's almost unfair to ask me this question because of the size of my yeshiva. In other words, I I understand and recognize that if you are a yeshiva with with a very large student body and you can use Yes. Yes. Yes. With 26 28 or as we heard about D up to 33 kids in a class, right? >> Scandalous. Scandalous. >> Six parallels. This becomes challenging. It's just harder. It's just much harder. Um I like to tell when parents come for interviews in time Manhattan, I tell them that the myk about education is that of course you teach to the middle, right? The reby's job is to teach to the majority just to curve whoever the middle is. This the general standard of the class and it changes year to year. That's where Rebby teaches. You teach to the middle, you support the bottom. I'm talking academically. you support the bottom and you try to incentivize and uh I don't mean incentivize with prizes right but you try to enrich the top and in our yeshiva when we have 15 kids in the class that is attainable and barash I think we do a decent job we have know we have separate tracks for math even though we have in the older grades even though we have 15 kids right so that's that's a tremendous braha we pull out for different times we'll have kaburas because you know voluntary kaburas in the morning for for certain grades at certain times. So I do think that part of this challenge is the size of the school and that's 90% of Rosie. So, I'm in a little bit of an advantageous situation on answering this question because you know kids will be bored if it's boring, right? If you're sitting the rebby could be great, but if you're sitting in a class and you know all the material, it's boring and and kids need to be engaged and challenged and it shouldn't and and it takes I think sema slave I think it takes really just focus and for the rebi the teacher the mora to recognize that yanko braha he needs more and therefore I will give him more. I'll give him do this Tyus at home. Do and and you know when I was an eth grade Arabia I used to call I would call them maybe through my basketball lens I would call him alioops. I would I would I would be reading a gar and I'm like here I'm going to tell you over a kasha from you know aasha it won't be on the next test. So right away I lose 30% of the class right because it's not on the test. I said and it's an alley meaning I'm going to throw it. It's a very high pass. If you could jump or if you want to jump you can maybe catch it and slam it in. You don't have to jump. I used to always call them. I used to pause and I say alioop time. So, first of all, it's cute. It's exciting. It's fun. And it also it perks up the mitsuyanim and the gifted. I don't like the word gifted. It makes you sound a little bit strange. But the mitsuyanim now get their little paparish. They get their sweets and their sugars. So, do I think it's a school's responsibility to keep those kids engaged? Absolutely, 100%. That being said, as a parent, never rely on the school. You're supposed to push to school for everything. Rely on them for nothing. If you have a son who's super bright, chances are he won't be getting everything in school. When he comes home at night, the garam will be he won't have the garam because he three times in yeshiva, get him kusa at night. Get him extra. Get your daughter chess lessons because she's a big math brain. All of the above. But don't do is decide that your child is gifted when they don't think that or they don't want. Right? When you have that child who's bright but is is a 9, 10, 12, 13 and is not interested in all the, you know, doesn't want to learn a new at night, you will lose the long game if you can say, "Well, but you're you're so bright. I'm going to throw more on you when the kid isn't ready for it." >> True. True. Let me ask it this way. Let me let me push not push back, but >> Well, obviously and and by the and obviously spelling bees, those are amazing for this, right? And bees in competitions and yeshiva. Yeah. because they they show the gifted. Yeah. >> Okay. Would you say in America in in the in the in our Torah system in our whatever we are yeshiva education system what percentage of money is being allocated to special needs versus gifted like how would you you know >> nine to one >> right at least >> don't yeah right >> probably more than >> 9010 9010 >> right right at least. So is that do you say that's the way it should be? What is your comment on that? Is there a priority? I guess the way to rephrase it is is should we be prioritizing one special needs population over another special needs? Because essentially what we're saying is if we're teaching the 50%. You have 10% of outliers on the right, 10% on the left, right? And then we're taking 90% of our extra quote unquote resources and putting them on the 50% in the middle. You realize your math. 50 I don't know where you were, but 50% in the middle, then 10% on the top and 10% in the bottom. There's others that sort of that could like hold on. You know, I'm assuming the next percentage is not law. You know, they're doing okay even though you're you're in the middle and then we're taking 90% of the resources and putting them on 10% bottom. Is that the way it should be? Maybe we should be splitting it 50/50. And how do you make that assessment? >> I think again these are big questions, right? >> That's why we have Rabbi Ari Shfeld as the code of the learning curve. for big questions, you get big answers. Brought to you by Yeah. So, I think the way it works is that kids that are struggling academically that are special needs on the bottom educationally, the concern is that that leads to other crisises, right? And that if you don't support them, their self-esteem will get destroyed, their self-worth will get destroyed, they will suffer, they they sometimes it comes with other challenges as well, emotional and social. And I think that is viewed as a crisis of a need that must be filled as opposed to the top. Yes, of course, your son being bored is is is a problem, but I think and and I don't I don't have the data to back this up, but I think, you know, my experience shows that the kids that are on the top, they feel better anyways. They kind of even without all the beautiful helps that the yeshivas give them there's a selfm motivation that they carry because of their success because of their brightness because of their capability they need less support because they can succeed anyways not that we shouldn't give them and shouldn't incentivize them and shouldn't try to push them but but but I think the crisis is the is the is the the struggling kid as opposed to the kid that we need to give more for and more and more meth. >> Even though one could argue that the top 10% impact on Clausius broadly could potentially be quite significant. >> Yeah, that I I think that's playing God. I think to say that we have to take our money and not let's because obviously we have a finite amount of money and not give it to the struggling kid and to to say that I want to give it to the top because he's going to become you know the next Ager, the next Marsha Feinstein. I I I I am curious if you would speak to or or do like a a research uh data on Gdela. Maybe find out when they were younger. I don't know if anyone could do such a thing. Try to find stories about when Gad were younger. >> Coming soon by Art Scroll. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> We'll have to plug our stuff. >> I think he could plug our stuff. >> So, I'm proud to announce that a new book is coming out called When They Were Young, Stories of Argyle as Children by none other than I Garfield. Coming soon to Stories Near You. So I am assuming that there'll be a chapter in there and discussing when they were in elementary school where they were elementary school rebane that gave them so much that made them into these gadelum I think that most of a gadelum not that they're born gdelum but that there's a certain selfm motivation that happens not because of our system I don't think our system maybe I'm being too harsh and don't like this and I was for a long time I don't think our system produces gdylum I think gdylan produce gdylum I think our system helps hold the middle and and and those that need us and about that we help them of course we give I think the gadelum gener you know by and large become gel on their own honestly these are deep waters as you mentioned and I think it's fascinating I think about this stuff I don't I don't know if he's the answer and and I hear your perspective and you know I'm not sure that's the answer I think listen how do we move on any kid for any reason right so like if if a strong kid needs us we need to be there for them period right and if a weak kid needs us we need to be there for them period and who could be the >> but but but but using the muscle of strong. If you're in a gym and there's a kid that really has low muscle tone and struggling struggling to walk, you're going to spend your resources to support him as opposed to a kid that's that's an athlete and is very good and but but could become a bodybuilder even and let's even assume bodybuilding is is is a mil, right? It's something that we strive for. You're you're going to say that's great. Hopefully get there on his own and I'll try to incentivize him. But come on, this kid can't walk. >> So I'll say like this. I honestly am not sure I'm not sure what say. I think there are different opinions about this. I really do. I'd be curious if anyone listening wants to share Marmokum from the last ask me from the last 30 years like going back you know to Europe is not necessarily the most good comparison but I'd be curious what Gdal would say about it. >> Would you agree with the following statement? I think there is a hashkovic this is about right and and right having the thousand boys in yeshiva for the one kid. See to me there's there's the the theoretical and the practical. I think theoretically this is a big mus among you know when you sit down and hawk about who's the for. I think practically 99.9% of yeshivas operate in this way where the money is spent on the bottom. Do you you agree with that with that? >> I agree. I agree. >> Right. Okay. >> Yeah. All right. Wonderful. Now a question from Mwah. >> Yes. Dear TLC, I imagine this is for Rabbi Garfield more than Rabbi Shfeld. Wow. Question obvious. That's a question about sports. >> Right. I was going to say about camper sports. Two areas of my expertise. >> As someone who grew up in town and now lives out of town. I am struggling with the wide range of Ashkafas that families have in our school. How do I maintain our family values while not hurting the others in the class that are different? >> This is a really important question and one that every parent needs to ask. You know, obviously there are challenges of in town and challenges of out of town. And actually the challenges are the very brahas. For example, in town, right? Unbelievable. That's how Hashem made the world. It's always like a in town there's this inertia. There's this group think. There's a strong culture and that sort of helps support your kids in their growth, right? But it also could affect individuality and the need for doing different things for different kids and this group think which could be very damaging. and then out of town because there is not that culture. Parents, especially if they grew up with that, feel like, "Oh my gosh, who's going to get my kid to do the things I want if the whole class isn't?" And it's this constant um sort of concern that quote unquote in town parents who live out of town have when they see their kids and they're like, "If the whole class isn't doing it or what's the cultural tone, very strong area of sensitivity." So, what I would tell parents, I see, I grew up out of town and I've lived out of town my whole life. I was a rebby in Atlanta. Now I live in Houston, grew up in Philadelphia. Like no, yeah. No in town for me. So I'm very used to that individualistic kind of approach. And I think ultimately parents need to know >> speak to the Milas of that approach for yourself personally, how you I mean I don't want to talk about your middle school years, but where you found that to be invigorating. Well, for me, and again, you know, if you look at my eighth grade class, there's quite a range of kids who went different ways, but what you definitely could find is almost to the fullest is that the kids ended up mostly aligned with their parents' values. Meaning parents that were chilled about firm kite, their kids are chilled about firm kite. And parents who are jived about firm kite, like my parents, their kids are jived about firm kite. And it might look a little different but largely it's very similar which is fascinating right >> in Houston you have a wide r you have a kyle right a pretty barashm yesa serious kyle and then you have the old Houston garb right my my and my my sister's in Houston her husband's in Houston I know a bunch of people in Houston so you have a really like and know there are communities where you live in in the boondocks and like you they're there for kov and then you're the one from kid or the one you have such a wide r is Is that a challenge of people in Houston saying let's let's split the schools? I'm not trying to create politics here, but but but we want our own different people who have different opinions. Of course, you know, but the the great Milo is there's a real sense of community here because the geographic makeup is that the yeshiva oriented shuls, the yeshiva oriented school, the coal are all in a very small geographic area. So it creates a synergy between the community and then we have a modern orthodox school shul and community and a kabad school shul and community and even though we're separate but we're friendly and but within the individual communities there's a lot of synergy and that's a beautiful thing >> is your answer to this mother don't worry if as long as you're a good parent you're the values of the school or that kid in the school who's who who does x y and z and parents allow him to go x y you know don't worry >> I would say a always worry and when it deals with kids and kuk and mothers and fathers nothing you just have to worry and dive in but ultimately if you create a healthy culture that really whatever culture whatever ashkafa you have that you're true to you know a lot of times and I you know this I don't mean to be insulting to any parents in Houston or anywhere but like they'll say make my kid yes yish but they themselves are are on lakes not coming to davening not wearing walking like a bent tyra so like it doesn't work like that that is a non option it doesn't work. So if you want your kid to be whatever, a bentoyra, then you better be a bentora inside the house and outside the house. And so that does not work. Don't and maybe in town it works. I don't know. You could speak to that because then you could have the inertia of the community, but out of town that's not an option. If you're out of town and you want your kid to be a bento, you need to have live those values through and through. And if you do, like I've seen great success, not always because things happen, but you know, generally it works. Yeah, >> I want to add two points. One from Abar Lapanski and one a story that happened to me. I was at a Q&A with Lapiansky and someone asked him this question about I live at living at similar living out of town but but I don't I want to I want certain kids not be accept accepting kids in this school. maybe was an administrator, maybe was at a Toro convention even told we don't want to accept certain kids because they don't fit and Baron said when you make a decision to move to an out of town community part of the decision you're making as that you are accepting a class with different strands of Yiddish and Hashkuffus that are not necessarily the same as yours otherwise stay in in in the tri-state area when you move to Jacksonville Florida making up a name I don't know anything about Jacksonville Florida right and there's one local yeshiva uh for you to move there and then say I'm not happy with the kid in the class then don't move there that's there as you said there are pros and cons to this and I'm not don't give up on the but that is what you are embracing and you're embracing the mil you're embracing the the and respecting others that aren't like you and maybe even have a positive effect on others all of the mileas that come with it is part of your decision by moving there but that was very like >> yeah I actually say that to people if if on an interview I They're asking a lot of questions about, you know, how rightwing we are and are we moving and how you should I say, listen, is the school and the community trending to the right. Absolutely, no question. And that's, you know, I would say 100% the world is trending to the right and Houston is very much trending to the right. However, be happy with what it is now or you're just going to be frustrated. Like do a full investigation, check our policies, you know, find out if we have school on Thanksgiving or whatever is important to you and then accept it or don't come. But don't come with the title that you know. Yeah. >> So, and I want to share a story because I you know even though the person wrote I imagine this is very regard. I actually disagree with that because Manhattan really has an out of town flavor. It really really does in in the type of community we have. So I had the following story with a parent. I hope I didn't overstep in what I said. You'll be the judge. Rabbi Garfield. A mother called me upset that the kids in the class read Harry Potter and it's inappropriate for kids to read. We should stop it. I said to the mother, "I have to be honest. I have Harry Potter in my house, so I don't really see the what you're afraid of." And she was not happy with me. And I said to her, I said, "I'm going to be honest, Mrs. Goldstein, if you're an AR yeshiva and you're upset about Harry Potter that the kids in the class are reading Harry Potter, you should probably switch. I said this to her because the story gets better. I said because they're going to read if you're expecting me to try to like stop the boys from reading what I consider to be an okay outlet. I'm not going to. And I even suggested certain yeshiva. I said, "Why don't you apply to this and this yeshiva?" It's a little further out. they're much more yesish than us. So she says to me, I would I want to, but because my husband grew up modern orthodox, even though now he's a flip out, they won't give us an interview because of his background. So I responded and said, "Mrs. Goldstein, I'm just going to tell you my hashkuffa. In my house, reading Harry Potter is a lot less tra than not giving an interview to someone because they have a modern orthodox That's a good quote. We're going to have to make sure that quote is highlighted. >> But that's a choice you make. Meaning she really wants to go to that other she just can't get in. >> See, that really would mess with a kid. You know that that I'm just saying I don't know her, but like that's bad. You know, like so inconsistent. >> Great family, great kid. She just has certain real sensitivities that she has that the rest of our most the rest of our doesn't have. And that was my story with this different. >> All right. So wonderful. If anyone's interested in moving out of town, you know where to look. There are different communities of different flavors also. >> Yeshiva Katana of Manhattan is open for business. >> You can live in Brooklyn and send your kids to the guest dress over there. Okay. Wonderful. Now we're going to go on to the next topic and our guest speaker which is Rabbi Fenbound. And um we're going to talk about a very important issue. Now Rabbi Rabbi Shon. Should we read the question first or should we introduce Rabbi Fenbomb first to our crowds? Let's You know what? I'm gonna let you decide. I make all the decisions. >> Oh my gosh. Okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna introduce Rabbi Fabum because I'm such a big fan. I can't hold back. I love Rabbi Fenbomb. >> Should be a trivia question. The trivia question should be when to our listeners. We should give out I don't know a free copy of your new book. When Rabbi Fabam was quoted on our podcast in season one, when was he quoted? >> Oh, yes. Yes. Very, very nice. Okay. So happened to be it's it's funny you mentioned that because Rabbi Figenbelum and me are also there's about to be a first here on the learning curve which is a crossover from the second best kanuk podcast the first best kanuk podcast. I'm not gonna say which is which. >> You are out there today. >> The listeners, they're gonna have to figure it out. But I had Ry Fenbomb wrote a beautiful, beautiful sitter, multiple Sudorum at this point called the Fenbomb sitter. And uh I met Ry Fen at a conference and we talked and then I was he was so gracious to come on my other podcast called the Today and we discussed it. It was a beautiful beautiful uh uh interview and I I just fallen in love with Ray Fagenbam. I've gone to Shuroviz and I'll just say briefly a little about him. He was uh born in Cleveland but he learned mostly in artis and that's another whole interesting side of him. from vanishes in the mirror and he actually this is a little little side fact people don't know but he was the first mashak in asel he was one of the first employees there together we wineberg and then he went to dark noam and chappelle's and started that but he is most known for the many years he spent in Toronto in the ferris basakov which is a I guess at the time the new basakov in Toronto but now very much an established basakov where he built it and was involved ink there, but now he's in Eric doing training and writing and just uh continuing to spread the good word on. So, I [ __ ] I hope I did justice to all that. >> That That wasn't bad. That That wasn't bad. >> Is there anything I missed? Is there any talent or skill? >> Didn't tell everybody how good-looking I am, but otherwise >> Yes. They're just going to have to imagine that. They're going to have to imagine that for themselves. But anyway, thank you M. It's great to have you. I always love smoozing with you and talking about you're you're the real deal as they say. You're the real deal. >> Well, that's a huge compliment coming from Houston, Texas. Yes. >> Thank you. Thank you. Welcome to the learning curve. Okay, so we're talking about Davening, an area you spent a little time thinking about. And you know, I always think like davining for me for boys, I always like equated it to sneas for girls. It's like the topic that somehow we cannot get right in the system and somehow we do more damage than good. It's like the hardest things to give over, you know, like we want our girls to appreciate SNES, appreciate davining. We want our boys to appreciate davining. It's like we get them excited about learning. We've been doing good with that. They love learning. They But Davining is like the hardest topic. >> Rod, it's interesting you say that. I would tell my alumni when they're in Chaduk and they would say, "But it's funny. Such a good boy, but I he struggles getting to chakras on time." I'm like I don't know if it like so I use an exact line. I said what sneases to girls a great girl but a skirt so a little I said that's what that's what filibat is for boys. Same thing. >> It's so true. So so we want to talk about that. We I know you've done an amazing thing for this in terms of your sitter to really try to make meaningful and and connect to the kids but like we want to go a little broader. But what we have is a question that a listener sent in. So, Rabbi Shfel is going to read you the question and use it as a as a springboard to really understand. >> The question is actually a specific question about how to deal with a teenage son in so I'm going to ask you the question and then if you obviously respond how you like, but I'd love to hear more. I bought your sitter. I almost bought it for my whole class. I didn't. It's expensive. No, it's beautiful. >> We'll make you a deal. If you're a friend of Ray Garfield, we'll make you a deal. >> Um, if you could obviously your sitter to hear about would be amazing. So, here's the question. I actually got this question from a friend of mine who davined at a local nine o'clock minion in Payic with my bakim my children and he's upset at me that I don't din with my children sometimes on chabas I dav earlier and he say you know what I love Garfield I went to with him I'm sending you al and here it goes >> oh wow that's really that's good okay now I'm interested >> yeah so I'm part of the question here we dabin at a serious growthoriented shul with a strong rough. Mani bar mitzvah son dislikes it and prefers a more relaxed minion that starts at 9 and sometimes misses manishma in parenthesis though I am not sure when he actually arrives. Should I keep diving at my shul or join them to stay involved and ensure he's dinging properly? And what about my younger kids who are still getting trained in proper shul habits? Do I stay in my sh for their how do I balance between my children? So this is not a question about I mean it is it has encompasses everything I know I'll the floor is yours >> I I have one chila why does he assume that his bar mitzvah boy son will dav in better if he joins him at that 9:00 minion maybe his son will actually dive in better if his father Davka says I trust you have a good time I'll see you when you come home for chilled and leave the dumb kid alone right same story with the kamineski Somebody asked him Yako he said and Revy said at what age do you bring your children do you take your children to shul you know what his answer was never never you never take your children to shul when they want to come to shul then they come with you you don't take your children to sh so so I'll add to the shila because this person said to me when he let me know what he said I want you to know just to kind of rabbi fagam push back on what you just said he said he was trying to be nice to me he said your children bashm dabin beautifully that's what he said to me But most of the teenage bakim are in the back smoozing and and and his assumption is had their fathers have been there, they would not be. You know what the rule is? If a kid has a father who tells him to davin, he'll raise children who he will tell to davin. If he has a father who davins, the kids will davin. If you think a kid davin's better because a prison warden is sitting next to him going noo new. Right, that ain't going to help. He'll read the words. He'll read the words and the father can say, "Look at my boy." But he's going to develop what I call in my sitter. PTSD, right? You know what PTS, right? PTSD is post-traumatic sitter disorder. Right? When he sees a sitter, he'll freeze, right? And as soon as he's out of here, he will find the 11:30 minion and show up for kdish once he's old enough to do it on his own. Right? Davening is not saying words, right? Dining is connecting to my I have I have two boys. They're married with children. They have children. So, right can heard their older but when they were teenagers they're 11 months apart. Night and day difference. The older one loved David. He got to show before I did. He was a masm that kid that everybody loves. The second one was apa and disliked Daviding. He didn't that right. I used to tell him on Shabus morning, all I ask you to do is get to Shu in time so we can walk home together. I don't even want to know where you are. Right? Stand in the back to I just want to walk home with you back together with Shu. His older brother said, Ty, you got to force me to go to David. I said, you know, I'll die. You'll be his father. Until then, I'm his father. Right? Of course, when he got older and flipped out, he said, "Why did you force me to go to Shu?" I said, "You're a lunatic. You wouldn't be from today if I would have done that." Right? You have to learn what you like and where you like. Same thing with dbing. Different flavors, different styles. You you you can force him to say words. You can't force him to do it. >> So what do we do? I hear you saying what not to do. We shouldn't harass him. We shouldn't new him. We shouldn't much him. That's all what we shouldn't do. Okay, which of course we all do. But let's let's you know, let's start with that. So let's say we're not doing that. What do we do >> as an institution? Is he Shiva in school or as a father with your kid at home? Well, uh, it's a fair space yakov high school in Toronto at least. I mean, I I don't know what it does now. And it's doing Burkship just fine without me. Right. Can I know how? Right. As I said, basil is full of irreplaceable people. Right. >> It's not as much fun. I could tell you whatever it is, it's not as much fun. >> But I'll tell you what we did with the girls for davening. You know, so you got a room full of girls, 100 girls, 120 girls. They're not all dinging frustrates, right? They're not interested. They're bored. They don't do they don't they're angry at Hashem. whatever it is, they're not all dining. So, we had there was davenining and you had two choices. Either you're in the main hall, the the main auditorium for doining or we had what was called doining workshop and you had to go to one of the two. If you were doining, then you're domining. You can't doin don't talk and get in trouble. Go to doing workshop. And that was we had a cool teacher and they they learned about domining. They learned perch Milos. They discussed domining. They did small little parts sort of like as you know beginners minion what did that do for our name I didn't care right the the ass is that the you know the students aren't there for the success of the misa the messa is there for the success of the students right so it my purpose was to help the students >> what was the percentage participation >> so in the beginning I would say maybe um if we had like a 100 when we had 120 girls in the school maybe 10% % right 10 12 girls right and uh so in the beginning everybody do together for ll so we could spot the non-dveners right and we could see what was going on we then suggested to some girls you'll get into a lot less trouble by going right pastnich I said but you're not domining right and then some volunteered and then but by and large as ninth grade 10th grade the goal was to move them back in and they all moved back they all slowly but surely moved back in >> would you suggest this for boys who obviously have daba the minion and this ka satra >> that I'm not a rv it's obviously easier to do with girls right but for you know politics and looks aside if you're asking in a pure shila you need to ask a pake I had nowhere near a pake when I was in man I paid someone else to teach al right my job was to convince people to keep it not to tell you what it is so that's a good sha I I I I can't answer that >> you could invoke the famous rule about about Shabas, right? that that that you have to ask every every school has its picn on an individual level depending on the age of the kid when they're bribable bribe them right I I bribed my kid to to to David Meyer right I offered them all sorts of incentives to go what did he learn from that I don't I don't get it but Tati obviously thinks it's really important because look what he's willing to do just for you to go down it see that it's important even though he didn't get it that's how you do with little kids when you're a little kid regarding Fela. Sit down and talk to him. Explain to him why is he not David? Is he dyslexic? Can he not read the Hebrew? Does he not understand it? Buy him my sitter. Buy him my sitter. I don't mean to plug this, but I do because I even though I'm really not a self-promoter, but thousands and thousands of people have transformed their doining right through it. Adults and and and kids and teens of all ages. Buy him my sitter and say just go to shuel. I don't care what you do with the sitter. Read the back which answers all the questions. Read the things on the side. Don't dive in. I don't care. Just sit and troll and sit for a half hour with with the sitter and read it and he will. >> I want to get into the sitter of what caused you to write it of of what you what you think it's taklas is. But one I just want to go back to that quote that in season one which I'm sure you heard because you hear all our episodes as all our listeners do. But Rabbi Garfield quoted you, Rabbi. Do you remember the quote? I think no. in which he quoted this he I think he said I met a ye 20 years ago at convention a special ye his name is Fenbam who said that fela maybe I'm paraphrasing is like a mida oh yes that okay that's true that's in the introduction to the sitter meaning just like there are kids who naturally are really good at uh at at doing and they they they have good people skills and they love visiting you know people in the old age home they know how to smoo and other people they freeze they can't do it get me out of here smell I I don't like old people, right? Same thing. It Some people are natural doers. They They know how to talk to themselves. They know how to talk to Boru. They're comfortable with themselves. They just blurt out what's on their mind. They don't have a problem. Other people are just not in touch with themselves and and and have a hard time talking. They don't know what to say and how to say and they feel stupid saying and doing will always be difficult for them. You need to know that about your kid, right? Besides the fact that brother maybe he just can't read Hebrew so well and maybe he's angry at a coach because his bubby is is dying and he think that that stakes right so but in terms of reading so well sometimes there are kids that I think read well because they d for the um in eighth grade you hear them ding and they know it perfectly until they get to kazarat perfectly dar they mess up larva because everything else they know by heart they don't know by heart and then you find out oh my goodness this kid can't read Hebrew Now I tell this to David in English. If the Hebrew is meaningless to you, David in English 100% say in Hebrew do the rest in English. I might be wrong. It is a there's a lot of power to it. But it's David is communicating with au that's what David is. You're communicating with a you're not saying words. If your skirt is below your your 4 in below your knee, you're if the trillin is on your hand, you did trillin. If you ate the masa, you ate the masa. reading a bunch of words which you you're just doing just to just to get done with that that wasn't fel wasn't a photo of you you didn't do anything so what'd you accomplish >> right yeah says ask there's motion so so right so talk about your sitter and and how it evolved and >> how it evolved that's a good question I'm not exactly sure how it evolved I think it started when we were when I was I was it it started with really the vidy I have a vidy pamphlet out that's been offered tons of years because I was a when I was in Manile I also taught all the grades I was a teaching principal I had a lot of people under me that did administration so what I taught so during l one year I was teaching the vid doing what does it mean what does mean a and so I said to write it out in English so girls would have something to say I'm guilty the words were meaningless so I did a lot of research and I started with that and then they said oh help us with the rashing so I made a little thing I took some of the key paragraphs and I started translating it into I looked at all the translations and I realized I who grew up in the 60s and had a good English education didn't understand the English completely. So calm uh today. So I rewrote it myself and the girls were so taken with it. I was so surprised that I just uh said why don't you make a sitter? Why don't you? So I started writing. I have to give Hakarat to Mosaic Press who pushed me forward with it when I came up with my original manuscript. The original I was just doing the English. It's like a sitter companion. I had the questions. They said why don't you just make it a sitter? It was really their idea. Put it all together and and make it a doinable sitter. and uh and really that's where it came from. Um uh they helped me out a lot with this setup which works like with the questions on the side but the answers in the back so the kid sees the question and I remember I taught hashkuff in my school for years and the questions in the sitter are the questions that everybody just asked as we went along. They're all questions that kids thought of and I just wrote them down and said that's a good question. I'll get back to you next week and and over the years I refined the answers till it became in the sitter because they're obvious questions. so what am I asking Hashem for? He gave me everything and bet after he does it, right? And how you say a shak when your life had fallen apart, right? Uh so it was their questions and then I started writing and I I passed it around. I I took papers and I passed it to kids to see does it make sense? Do you understand what I'm talking about? And and it it was it was like three four years till I finally sort of got it down in order to create a translation that uh that kids would understand. Somebody asked me what the hardest part was. Um, I spent most of my time on the online thesaurus trying to find simple words that I knew teens would understand. In the original editing, they would rewrite things. And I said, "That's great." But there's not a 15-year-old on the planet in the room world that would know what those words mean. And that's what we worked really hard on was just and I would I would test out I would test out sentences on teens, on my grandchildren just to say, "Do you know what that means?" And they said, "No." I said, "Okay, well, let me try to say it a different way." All right. And and uh it's just crazy. I never thought it would go over like it did. And I never thought adults would use it like they do. >> You think domining in schools should be shorter in the younger grades like meaning if you're It sounds to me like you think the anecdote for the making domining meaningful is to translate, explain, etc. So, you know, we have a half an hour in our school for domining. So if you want to do a lot of domining in fourth, third, fourth grade, you got to chant it out, you know, essentially. Now there's a value to that because you become fluent in the words by chanting it out, right? But on the other hand, it's very wrote. How would you balance that in the younger grades? >> It's very wrote, but that's how they learn how to say it, >> right? So maybe you should do it that I'm just saying, but it's then it's not a meaningful experience. It's like embedded. It's like the first experience is not so meaningful. It's just it's you know how it is. How is that Ari? Is that a good uh >> no suck? That wasn't ding. No suck. Right. >> Right. I don't know. I I've never never did third fourth grade. I don't know how deting goes. Why don't you before deting start say okay before we start deting. Right. I want everybody we're going to say ma. Everybody says say ma ani to yourself even if you already said it at home. And then quietly think to yourself something you want to thank Hashem for today. >> That's beautiful. That's beautiful. >> I picked that up from the Manchester. He said he does it and I want you to know for the last 20 years I've been doing it. And at my age, you know what I say? Thank God I'm 75. I can get myself dressed. Thank you, Hashem. I say, "My Donnie, thank you that I can get myself done. Thank you. I can go to the washroom. Thank you that I was able to give a shir last night and I made sense. Tell the kids to do that and then let them do it and maybe at the end do the same thing." >> Beautiful. >> So they should get used to talking. Then at the end say before we leave everybody think of one thing you want to ask Hashem for for help today you have a test you have something going on is in your head get them to do that >> so if a parent comes to you and says [ __ ] I see your sitter it's wonderful obviously that means that bila is is dear and near to your heart I have a son a daughter eighth grade nth grade and it's not because they have a hard time wake up in the morning it's a separate suka diving just doesn't speak to them they find it boring they find it meaningless it's not even so much that they're angry hashkuff they don't have deep hashkuffic what's the point they just don't doesn't speak to them how can I help my child and as a rebi the same question help my talmud make dominating more meaningful for them this is going to sound selferving but I apologize but it works based on the hundreds of emails that I got buy the kid the sitter and say I'm giving this to you as a gift they'll roll their eyes I can send you emails from Mahanhin who said, "I I bought your sitter. I gave it to my teenage daughter." She rolled her eyes and said, "That's my birthday present." She said, "Yeah." So, she put it down and I didn't say a word. A week later, I found it next to her bed. Two weeks later, I didn't see it around. I said, "Where's the sitter?" She said, "Oh, I brought it to school. I use it every day." And don't ask it. And don't ever ask them if they dive in. Don't ask them if they opened it. Don't ask them anything. Just leave them alone and say, "Here's a gift for you. Maybe this will help. Do with it as you may. They'll start opening it. They'll start reading it. They'll dab in. They'll do it in English. They'll say one thing. It it it it takes time. And the other suggestion is, as I say, you don't like doing, but I can't tell you what to do. On your way to school, talk to yourself. In today's day and age, you can walk to the streets and talk to yourself. It doesn't look weird. And just say, "Hi, good morning, Hashem. This is uh Sprina talking." Oh, but I guess you know that uh I have a big math test today. Could you help me out? Hi, this is Ari. Um, you know, thank you very much here. Just talk just tell get them used to talking to our chef. That'll make a difference. >> Beautiful. Beautiful. Do you think that it's it's we're going in the right direction or the wrong direction? I don't know if you have a perspective. I know you live in I know. >> Okay. Senator, but like I I feel like in America at least Davening is is in a worse place. Ding ding is in a worse place for kids 20 and under than it's ever been. Ronfeld, do you have a thought about that? >> He asked me to compare to what it was 20 years ago. >> You feel like kids are just not a lot of them don't come. They stand in the back. >> Uh am I Garfield? Am I older than you? No. Right. I don't think so. >> I don't think so. >> I don't think so. But I'm not that much younger than him than it looks like even with with all my white hairs. >> What's going on? So there you want to know is is the 930 minion in the avas and paic bay manim pumping yes but so is the 845 million in my shul that has a bazman afterwards you know for a seder with a good breakfast I don't know that it's better or worse I know that it is I I loved your mus in the beginning of Garfield I know that fela you know like the topic or the subject in elementary school that ram struggled with the most in middle school is teaching because once you get to garum and you use a kas for teaching garum teaching actually every year is augish in a meaningful way. I think you know globally is something that we maybe because it's so personal and it's not an academic pursuit necessarily. We don't have a a a road map an atlas to that kid. It's in elementary schools it's just by ro it's we sing ashray we sing songs we we try to make it a little bit exciting and the kids come on time and a hollow I even complain not complained I asked my said hey maybe ch change up the songs once a month to make it less by wrote and they did not appreciate it I have my system all of them no this is how we sing Astra I changed my songs I finally got the kid to know Astra now I'm going to teach them a different thing you know this is something that we don't have a great handle on or or from a a a a communal level of how to take inspire a kid in who isn't in other words the kid in fifth or sixth grade seventh grade who struggles in it's not us that's able to reach him through I find >> because a relationship with a keshu you can't can't create a relationship with keshu if you don't know how to create a relationship with other people and you can't create a relationship with other people if you don't know how to create a relationship with yourself and in today's day and age of huge huge confusion. Kids are struggling more and more to have a honest and healthy relationship with themselves and therefore they're happy to do the words. We've created I mean Yiddish blal has become extraordinarily external right what what's Felman said many years ago at at a Tomasur convention we're raising a generation of young people who are very observant but they're not religious they're very observant but they're not religent Let some of the mind be plenty of but no one's talking about right what's the one topic nobody talks about right you know the sis you know you know thus you're doing everything right you're not going to go to gadam but to create a relationship with the ku is very difficult that's why I said in the younger grades right have them talk to hashem before they dit them talk to after they d let everybody write a note what they were asking hashem for and put it in a jar rich it up every month make him real you're really asking hashem for something he's Tati he he's going to right >> a while back I mentioned I asked you like I know what we shouldn't do but what should we do and you said in school or at home so we've been talking mostly about school let's pivot a little and talk about home so what message do you have to parents of kids who are let's say you know 8 to 12 okay that's when they're first experiencing so you shouldn't force them to come to shul you shouldn't tell them to be quiet you shouldn't force them to do anything except give them your sitter mashem at least one one for home and one for shaw But you know what what else should a parent be doing positively proactively? >> So I I assume when we're talking at home, say either we're talking during vacation because he's between 8 and 12, he's diving in school, right? Or or shabas or or or let's say Sunday for girls or Sunday if the boys don't have depending on where they are, >> right? Um you the the worst thing you can do is scream at the kid. That's the worst thing you can do. Then they will guilt by association, right? Then they they file is is is something that gets you screened at right and you davin just to avoid getting screened at caller ID motivation. Caller ID what's the purpose of caller ID to avoid uncomfortable situation. They'll just want to avoid uncomfortable situations. All right. What can you do? Bribe 8 n 10. You know make a chart. You know you d and don't watch him do it. Don't look at them. Just say go to the room and you and then you do it and the kid says yes. Put a star in the chart. You know he did it. Doesn't matter. He'll feel guilty that he lied to his parents at some point. Right? Doesn't matter. Write a chart after five stars. You get a whatever it is. Younger grades. You could just bribe them. It shows them how important it is. You want to show them that to you it's important. And I know it's hard. Just do it. Whatever you can do for just take a sitter, whatever you want to do. You just tell me if you fail. You do it. I'll give you a star. Right? What else can you get them that don't don't whine and the truth is given my sitter. Right? And just say here, here it is. Open it. Don't open it. Right? Look at it for five minutes and and and we'll call we'll call it being Yaiting. Um what else would you like to do? Stand there and say I'm not you're not moving out of this room till you finish. That's right. Once did a thing I asked how I asked the girls once how many girls ever saw their mother's davin? So their mother's ding but they probably do everybody's left the house. I said they see you love diving. They see you getting out on time. They you are in shul and they see you talking during David. Goodbye Charlie. You just lost it man. You you lost the battle out. It's out. You're gone. >> I had an eighth grader once that was during kaduca. One of my tidium was talking and and like didn't have his feet together. So my manal came over to me and he was like Michonne felt he was like ming me a kid in class who's whose feet not together during like how could you you have to work on him. So I said, "Rabbi Smanal," I said, "A boy in eighth grade who doesn't know to stand with his feet together by kadusha, it means he never went to shul on chabas, which means him and his father have right how never." So then I that boy is not someone that I could reach in. That boy means his his family dynamic. It means not going to children. I was in his family and because boy was bar mitzvah. He wasn't 10. So then what do you want from me? Call his father and tell me he has to start going to Schulen Chabas. And the father has to start going to Schulon Chabas. >> Well, thank you Ry. Is there anything else about Filela you feel that we should cover? I feel like we've gotten a pretty good job of understanding the issue some potential areas that we could work on things to avoid. >> You know what I want everybody to know when I give chila here in seminaries and yeshivas that people ask me to speak. You know how I start? I start by saying, "How many people in this room found themselves taking three steps backwards and saying, "Oh my gosh, I guess I must have just finished Monzere." Everybody smiles and raises their hand and I raise my hand, too. And I say, "You know what? Everybody, Rabbi Fam of the Fam Center sometimes just spaces out." Your kids have to know that that it's not easy. Your kids have to know that you mess up, right? Uh parents have to make them realize. You have to make your kids realize it is talking not easy. It's not always easy for me. I don't always dive in with Kavana. I got stuff on my head. Sometimes I'm upset with a B. I find it hard to do it right. I know that it's hard, but as long as you talk to Keshu, he he he's always listening. >> Beautiful. >> Thank you, Rabbi Fenbal. Thank you for joining us. >> Well, it was a pleasure. You should have a huge amount of We leave in the good hands of YouTube. That was fun. Wow. We should all have such, you know, when we get a little bit a little bit older. >> I don't want to say cute. That's not the right word. He's beamed the guy. He has such a pain. Yeah. >> Yeah. You know, you know, he reminded me of when he spoke about the fact that we all struggle and feel and space out. A cousin of mine once told me if want to go on vacation they need a they need a s they need transportation they need a plane if we want to travel you start dabbing you're in Cancun you're in LA you're in >> yeah I'll tell you something I was thinking and I don't know if this is true but it's just coming to mind like what is it about and it's funny because he also had that mushel I think it's because those are things that are so deep and private inside of a person, but they're so easy to publicly monitor. So the differential like tas you can't hide if you're not dressing, right? You get nailed right away and everyone can see it. But yet it must reflect a deep and also with doing it's so easy to like force a kid to sit like you know you go to some of these schools. I once went to a school for doining no smiles. They have a rebby watching everyone like a hawk. No movement. It's like so easy to control but it require and that differential between external and internal the since it's so great it creates like a resentment and a resistance. Oh that's just my thought and we have to it really goes back to something we've talked about a lot the idea of control is and we have to always remember that so easy to fall into that trap where you think you know well if I could scare the kid into doining or dressing sneas then I've somehow changed their behavior. So, it turns out from today's podcast that if you have a gifted child who lives out of town and struggles with FELA, we're able to help you. >> I hope. Yeah. >> All right. This was wonderful. >> Now, it's my big job to share the reach out. Of course, we we love all the comments that we get. We've been getting more and more, thank God, more and more uh interest and and traction, I guess, is the right word in podcast lingo. So, uh please feel free to reach out to us. The email is the learning curve.com. Again, that's the learning curve at mishbah.com. We'd love to hear you opine on some of the great matters we've discussed. Share them and send us additional questions. And wishing everyone a wonderful day. Thank you for joining us.