S1 Eps 6: Let's Talk Mesivta (feat. Rabbi Yaakov Bogart)

Don't take this too sharply, but choosing a high school based on its soccer team is like choosing a hospital based on its food. >> Other than Gamura and Midos, are there any other highle factors like money, siblings? No. Any other like factors besides learning and neidos? Welcome to the Learning Curve podcast brought to you by Mishbaha Magazine. >> We're raising children in a changing and challenging world. >> So, let's tackle the important issues facing from families today. I'm Rabbi Rafel Garfield Manal of Yeshiva Taurus MS in Houston and I love talking about >> I'm Rabbi Ari Shonfeld Manalhiva Katana of Manhattan director of camp. I also love talking and sometimes fishing. >> Join us as we answer your questions and discuss the topics that matter to parents the most. and welcome back to another episode of Garfield. This has been a blast. It continues to be a blast. Our last episode, Dr. Mandleman, was inspiring. My voice is a little better now than it was then. And how are you? >> Yeah, great. >> Onward we move. The big topic today, the topic of hicking and working to try to figure out the right way to choose MFA and a high school for your son is maybe a topic that I personally will talk about have been invested in for a long time. But that is our large our big question. We start with smaller ones. So I'll read you one and then you'll go back with me and here we go. Ready? Here we go. >> Let's do it. Dear TLC, my husband and I feel very strongly that our nine-year-old daughter should skip fourth grade. I think it would help her socially and academically she's strong enough to handle skipping. Obviously, I guess that's the opinion of the parents. We met with the school administration who felt otherwise and is refusing our request. I am sure you've both dealt with this in the past. When it comes to holding back or pushing ahead, what role do you think is appropriate for the school to play versus the parent? and whose decision ultimately should it be? Anyone who's been in Manal has obviously dealt with this. What's the Houston kind bylaws are in your yeshiva? So, this is surprisingly a very very serious issue in the sense that when I first started in my role, this came up early on as it does almost every year. And I called a very experienced Manal friend, mentor, Rabbi Yeshua Levy at Turmasura. I told him what was going on. He's like, "Yeah, I made a mistake early in my career with this and it's like a major issue. Don't think that you could just have a conversation and give some advice." And >> which way was yours? Skipping or holding back? >> They were asking to skip and I was hesitant >> and I was talking through it like what do you do if the school's hesitant and the parents are strong? Like it's a hard situation. And I thought as a young naive principal that I could just say my opinion, all my wisdom and lay down the law. How dare you? >> Right? And Rabbi Lee was like, "Uh, not so simple." So, he gave me some great advice. And as a result of that, we then developed a system. I'll tell you what it is, but I don't think that we should be mandating, not even mandating is the wrong word. I don't think we should be making suggestions for anyone else. I'm just talking about me and my experience. And okay, obviously, every school, every environment, every manal has to do what works for them. And this might not work for them. And I'm not here to say this is the model, but this has worked for us. And I think it speaks to the necessary partnership that exists around this issue and the emotion. >> I mean, there is nothing. It's that's where I leave was explaining to me and I have learned both the hard way and the less hard way that this is an extremely emotional like strong issue and parents carry it forever and feel it and it could be really something they carry forever really. So >> it sounds like there's something you want to say. >> Very what I'm saying is >> No, I mean it sounds like you've had you've had a story. That's what it sounds like. >> Oh yeah, I've had 15 stories. What do you mean every time it's a story? Because if the school doesn't think it's a good idea and the parents do, you are in a very serious situation. That's I guess what Rabbi Levy was telling me. This is not a claim as a so what we did was we developed something based on the Iowa acceleration scale. Um the University of Iowa, I don't know why this is their thing. You can look it up, but they are into the word acceleration means skipping a grade in uh academic prol. And so they developed this thing. It's like a nine-point scale that measures all sorts of aspects of the child. And their point is that it's not just a single dimension academics, right? They say there's a million different factors that could not a million but 10, nine or 10 that could impact the child. So what we did was the following. We took that IO acceleration scale, picked three or four domains. We didn't do all nine. Primarily academic, social, and then emotional development. And then we survey all if a parent requests you know to skip and then we survey relevant faculty that have connection to the child and we ask these questions relative to other kids where do you see this child if they score strong on all three. The school would recommend that the child skip like we would agree if they're socially emotionally academically advanced and the parents want them to assuming we have room in the class we would do. But if they don't score on all three, it's easy if they score one, but in two there's a little judgment. We'll have a meeting and discuss it. Bottom line is we would say, "Listen, we did our work. We looked into it. We gave it a fair shot. We don't think it's good." Now, what happens? This is get rid. Right. >> Exactly. So, I'm ready for the drum roll. I'm ready for the drum roll. >> Yeah. >> What we do is we allow the parents to hire an outside professional who we agree on psychologist. We had the one fellow who made aliyah. So, we have another person now. It's not cheap and it's not easy depending on what they feel they need to do in terms of evaluation, but it could cost $1,000, you know, and we are committed to following that professional's advice. >> Now, generally what happens is the parents either realize that, you know, that professional is just going to say what the school said and they're out a thousand bucks. They don't want to do it or they do it. people have done it and for me I could sleep at night because I feel as a for the future of this child and the and by the way we should mention that even if a kid who's what was this a seven fourth grader looks a certain way it's very different when they're 11th grade and 12th grade and the kids to seminary and they're not ready I mean this is really something that impacts a child's life in a way that parents sometimes don't have the perspective especially if it's their older child >> which is often where the stuff goes down so anyway But because I have this outside professional who is taking a and I trust them obviously we get someone who we trust you know I'm able to sleep at night I put it on them and shalom is so like I said in my career here there have been one or two times where we have been overridden by a professional it's hard to know if it worked or not it's really really hard to evaluate because do the children never have problems yeah is it related maturity development I don't know but that's how we do it and I feel like it's a good show because we're telling parents Listen, we have a process that's based on research. I think we do it in a fair way. If we feel it doesn't work, we're very open, transparent about the whole thing. It's even written up on the document and then we allow for an outside professional. So, like, how angry can you get, you know, at that point? So, anyway, that's what I have to say. That's what we do here. And it doesn't work. >> It sounds like you have real experience in this and professional experience and a real protocol. >> That's how we roll. Rab, you seem surprised. >> Have I not proven myself? I've got to say nothing you said surprised me in that couple of minutes. The one thing that I would add a little bit of and I've dealt with this as a parent. I've dealt with this from an owl from both sides skipping and holding back to generalize you know and maybe to speak in layman's terms and what you were saying. I think that in both cases, in other words, I'll say like this, to skip, the parent has to prove that the kid can skip and to hold back, the school has to prove that the kid should be held back. It's almost like if a parent comes to the school and says we want to skip, then the parent has to overwhelm the school in that skipping is a good idea. And if the school goes to the parent and says we feel it's appropriate for your son to or daughter to be held back, the school has to overwhelm the parent in convincing them that that's the right move because obviously to move in a different direction than the grade the child is supposed to be in is a big move. And I think generally it doesn't work unless both sides agree. A parent says I want to skip and the school says even with the Iowa exams >> acceleration >> acceleration but you don't know the social dynamic of the class that is the year above you. Right? And there are things that go on in our school that you might not be privy to. I think a school has the ability to say I hear but we who see your child and see the reb and see lunch and recess don't think it will work. And I think the other way too when it's holding back and the school really feels that the kid should be held back. I think the parents have to be partners. Otherwise everything you do the parents will be upset. And it goes both ways in terms of success. It's not always when you jump ahead or the kid's successful. It's not always when you hold back. I held back my son when he was four. So because you know he had the Shonfeld gene of being not so tall but Hashem we thought that was the right thing but yeah you handle that well Rab Garfield. >> Thank you. I will add that I think parents suspect schools of being somehow sinister or like hiding their motivation right >> but the reality is that if you talk to real McChank who've been in the field Jews and non-Jews just general educators it is a risky thing and it should be dealt with with great caution because parents are quick to say my kid's bored. I mean boredom is part of life and generally if the kid is such a genius he'll be bored or she'll be bored in the next grade too because the difference in academics isn't like huge and if the kid is gifted in that way you know and then you end up with all the secondary issues and like one of the people we work with here who's a big expert in this has told me like a skill for smart people is dealing with boredom. It's a skill in life. I wouldn't know. We'd have to ask one of the shown felts. But I've been told that smart people have a hard time suffering fools. And that's an important skill in life. Again, I'm not saying it's never appropriate. >> I don't know. This conversation is boring. This conversation, >> isn't that hard? You're stuck with me, you know? It's hard, man. You got to just put up with it. >> It's hard. >> But anyway, it's like imagine a ball player to make a mush for you, Robert, who is bad, who's on your team. Like that's just your team. So if you shut down and act like a lunat guy, you know, that's not going to get you far in life. You got to be able to >> Yeah. Oh, 100% 100%. >> So, you know, there's that, too. It's a complicated issue and it should be dealt with with great care and it requires it requires a lot of thought and shakas. Okay, let's move on. We could probably have a whole podcast on that topic, but >> I think we almost just did. Yeah. >> Yeah. All right, we're going back to a this writer, one of our wonderful listeners, brought back a previous topic that she felt we did not finish. So, I would like to read you the question and finish it off, I guess. I hope. Fear TLC, one of your early episodes, you dealt with the importance of putting your rebum on a pedestal. >> You said it right. >> Thank you. I learned I'm learning. Thank you. I have good partners who set me straight. >> Okay. Anyway, you also discussed what the proper Torah hashkafa is on the sensitive topic of asosaku. Kudos for that. But I have not heard from either of you as to what to do in a scenario in which the rebi or the school says things that you find fundamentally against your beliefs. Here are some hot button topics, but it could be any. For example, we talked about the gym, the army in Israel, American politics, kabad college. I don't think calling the school will make a difference. So, how do I balance respecting my child's teachers with maintaining our family's individual viewpoint? >> I have to like that question. >> Thank God we back each of those things because that would not work. >> No, we were not going to discuss Yasmote, the army in Israel, American politics, Kabad college. No, not we actually will not discuss any of them. How's that? I'm not sure why some of those are considered controversial, but fine. So as often the first starting point is how old is your child? In other words, I do think that a yeshiva young elementary yeshiva none of these topics should be coming up. The rabbim should not be having hashkafic and modus conversations about Zionism with a third grader. It shouldn't be happening. Now there is a schoolashkaf. So there's differences. In other words, does the yeshiva say let's have a fun conversation, right? or did yeshiva go to the rally in Washington and after October 7th but those are not rebane that's just I'm in a yeshiva and not always does yeshiva agree with my it could be softer the conversation we could almost take it there but when the child is younger there really isn't a place and it's unnecessary and I think inappropriate for rebeim and moras to discuss things that are just not relevant to that child in mifa this is a very big sugia and you got seventh eighth grade maybe but when this happens And it invariably will to a lot of parents. It's happened to me with my child's my children's yeshivas. I think >> our listeners are wondering what was the issue. Oh, we'll let you go. Continue. >> I think that we have to be strong enough. Life is gray and not black and white. And children, we discuss this a lot, right? The children think in black and white. So, it's a little tricky. So, it's very hard to have this nuance. But I think it's okay for a parent to tell a son that that's not our I think it's okay to say that they're different and that's we don't believe in that your rebi could and you have to again be sensitive to the fact that you can't destroy the rebi because or the mo because then your child is going to lose that ability to sit in that shear and to from that person but ark is different there areim there are mnagim there areim there are litaks there are those that are pro-zionist and anti-ionist and arka is different and it's Okay. As long as it's not personal and as long as you're able to maintain a real der eritz, I think really is the word erit for the rebu talking then and you point to that are on your side. It shouldn't petrify you to sit down with your 15-year-old daughter or son and say, "I hear I hear your Reb is saying, but that's not Arashkafa and Zadi didn't do that and you know and my rasha held differently." I think it's okay. I don't think that's scary. >> I hear you. I'm really torn on it because I hear what you're saying and it's very reasonable. You know, at the same time, if a Talmud goes into let's say a ninth 10th grade and the message from home is ours are different than your rebi and fundamentals that means when the rebby gives his schmoo on Friday and he likes to throw in his stuff. >> Define fundamentals. Define the word fundamentals. >> I don't know. Israel, that's pretty >> fundamental. It is >> I think so. In our world today with the amount that we talk about Israel, I mean Israel's a major part of our right in your school this year. Israel wasn't a big deal to army soldiers rallies. I mean Israel's a big deal, right? So that's a fundamental. Let's say the Rebi is uh makes fun of it, right? He's on the right. >> Was against the rally. Let's go there. Ready? >> Against the rally. Not only was he against the rally, but he was quoting his I don't I'm not quoting anyone specific who said what's the worst thing that was said about >> Walav. And you went to the rally. So now what >> you not only did you go you went with your father, your uncle and your grandfather, right? >> Who were wearing Israeli flag and when you were going you were explained by your parents how this is and >> it's hard I think now to learn >> from that rebi maybe. I don't know. Oh, I hear it's a shy [ __ ] >> But that to me is a perfect example without getting involved of of what whatever our opinion is about these issues because that is not the rule of us on this podcast. But in a case where a family goes to the rally in Washington and the yeshiva rails against the rally that's an issue that you going to ignore it you going to ignore that suga? What are you going to tell your son? Your son said he shouldn't go and he quoted from his rashiva said he shouldn't go. >> Honestly if I was the father I wouldn't take my kid in that case. >> No he didn't go to your kid didn't go. I wouldn't take my kid either. month. We were saying the kid went with his father and his >> Oh, oh, oh. No, no, no. That's a should you pull the kid out of Yeshiva. >> Maybe the message should be I don't know. I don't know. But maybe the message should be you're in that yeshiva. You're learning by that Rebi. And for now, I want you to hear his message. >> It's not the only message, but he's a wise man, you Rebei. And what he's saying is worth listening to. I don't know because it's very hard again to say about fundamentals that that guy's a lightweight in terms of hashkava to you but yet when it comes to other things or even hashkafic things that are important you know you're sort of undermining his kayak >> yeah it's a slippery slope but I think agreed but I think that you have an aaras as a parent to do both I think it's okay for you to tell your son to build up your son's rebi in his eyes it really comes from how you speak at the shabas about about rashish about and it's not going to start when your son's in nth and tth grade but if your son understands your and for his rebim then it's okay that there's a musk there was a big amongst about the rally so it's okay if there's a thinks this our opinion is very strongly that so I think it's okay as long as and this is right it never starts today as long as you have that consistent real derk for rebeim and for your son's manhigim then it's okay to have a >> mim I mean I think that's where it comes down and it's good we talked this out because I think it's clear now at least for me is that it's easy to have a slippery slope if you send your kids to a quote unquote firmer yesa it's very easy for there to develop in the home sort of a cynical attitude towards the whole thing >> because you know I mean oh what do you say this week you know like that kind of go, you know, not that I've ever done that, but I'm just saying as if that could happen. And that is a dangerous place to be opposed to a lot of reverence, a lot of respect, a lot of genuine, you know, praise about the rebell. And then an occasional clarification, yeah, I think is a much healthier way to go. >> Beautiful. >> So, we're on the same page. And this week we're going to be discussing and tackling a conversation. A suga that is anyone that has boys that are entering eighth grade and the mifa topic of choosing the right high school for your son is one of the maybe one of the last choices you'll be able to make as a parent one of the most important and we hope to move on mash in an upcoming episode to discuss the seminary suga which maybe is even more daunting of a task. But there's a lot of layers in the massa world of choosing MFA and and it's probably app propo rabbi that you're out of town which means I know there's a wonderful new massa in Houston but it also means that the out of town choice is something that you have to embrace maybe more readily than we do but there's two parts to this conversation we've heard from our listeners they want discussed so I'm going to just take snippets from different emails to lay out the two issues and then after we'll discuss it a little bit we have the discuss of bringing in a manal from Lakewood Rabbi Yakov Bogart the Manal touch will join us soon here I think we're going to get a lot of perspectives here because you were in Payic as eighth grade rebby which you know Payic doesn't have one Mifa it has a whole bunch and you have the whole like Northeast really open to you and then I actually was ninth grade rebby in Atlanta before I came to Houston and was part of the founding of a Mifa there for the kids there as being the ninth grade rabbi and assistant manal there was this constant discussion do we stay do we go you know like my whole job was like to have that conversation and then here in Houston we only started the missa four years ago right >> and so for the first bunch of years I was here we had to send the kids away so like I've been discussing this topic my whole career basically and I know you >> also yeah and I have the being part of an organization in Pic that helps out Gushis and Almanis various aspects of life gashm and so I'm the not sure what the liazison that if mothers who don't have a husband to help them navigate the suga of high school they you know they come meet with me with their son some of them I know some they don't know >> Justin Pay these are Payic families >> say Clifton families >> very nice that's a beautiful idea does it have a name the organization >> I don't know I know >> great beautiful special place >> beautiful so here are the two emails and the two topics so we'll lay it out then we'll attack one at a time. The first is here at TLC, we are really on the fence on where to send our son to missto and we are looking for your guidance. Look at that. Looking for us guidance. I think it's they just want to hear the hashkafik. You obviously we don't know their son, but they'll tell us a little bit. Our son's a great boy who wants to learn and do the right thing. He's middle of the class. I'm paraphrasing because it's a long email. He would probably do great in an out of town with the structure and positive environment that it provides. But it's not home. Home gives the family warmth that no yeshiva can provide. Our fear with sending him to the place his friends are going to is that it is a sink or some environment and we are afraid for him to fall into the of unmotivated kids. What do you recommend? The basic of this question is dorm verse non- dorm, out of town versus in town. But the big colloquial question is my son's going into eighth grade. He's my first. Let's even say I'm a balchuva. I didn't go to Long Beach and therefore I'm automatically sending. Right? If you're so lucky, what do I look for? or what are the priorities? How scary is a dorm? These type of large topics. The second email, I'm going to throw them both out now. Rabbi Garfield, the second email we actually read on the first episode if you remember. >> We were much we were much more timid back then. So, >> oh, we were so young, Ari. We were so young. >> We were young and naive and we said, you know, we're ready to tackle this maybe on future. So decades later and this was about a parent who has a son in MFA who is struggling that the misa is much more I don't know what that would be I don't want yeshivish than he's comfortable with what do you do with the fact that I want to send I want to send my son to mifa a but yeshiva's pushing mifa b and I really want my son to end up getting a degree but none of the local yeshivas offer that I think >> is the question that the boys are ready in the yeshiva So this parent happens to be frustrated because he has a boy in the yeshiva and then a boy also in seventh grade and he saw what happened. He's anticipating what's going to be. He doesn't like what's happening with his massa boy and he's like what do I do with the next one to avoid that >> correct >> the hashkafa of the yeshiva doesn't jive necessarily with the parents and what do they do with that and to me it's even deeper we as manal what is our role in pushing in suggesting yeshivas that maybe don't align with hashkas of the parents but we feel it's the best place for that boy what's our role versus the parents roles these are gigantic sugas the the deep waters of Mifa. >> There's one thing I have to say. I just have to say because I'm from Philadelphia. I grew up there and I was very blessed to have a relationship. >> You are from Philadelphia means you learned in Philadelphia. So >> I learned in the yeshiva but not as a student but no I'm not a Philadelphia boy but I'm from Philadelphia. >> Okay. >> And those who know what we're talking about know what we're talking about. But I was very lucky that I have a very close relationship. I had and I have barm with haha there and the rashivas and the mishbakas. I'm a very fortunate young man and because of that I have to echo the very stronghold opinion of Zunzin the rash of Kamitki >> who I have heard speak to this topic multiple times with great resolve and he says you should keep your children home whenever possible period I has the yeshiva that has a daughter don't ask me these dashes but he has said many a time that a person should keep their kids home that it's healthy assuming the home is reasonably healthy that it's the best thing for the development of a child to be home with his family certainly he never >> I have a different recording from how's that >> in which a parent asked the kid got into Philly if said you're stickle right not to go to Philly because the parents have shi and then the option was to send their kid to a dorm and the kid comes home every shabas >> and the kid maybe comes home one during the week and one day during the week and said it's the best both worlds. That was >> interesting >> that because you can get that liging and learning by having that late night say that late night learning maybe on Mishma on Thursday night and you could get away from whether it's the radio or the computer that maybe is in your house and yet you still have the of the house. So there are it's not as black and white there. >> But there's a lot to unpack here and certainly we want to get to our guest. I could just say the other piece is that we have to really do a real gut check. You know, I'm blessed to have four boys and I've been through this a number of times. >> Same. >> And it's very easy to allow other factors other than what's best for your kid >> to get into the equation. And you know, we have to be very thoughtful not to think about the co of getting our kid into yeshiva x or y at the expense of what >> you mean as a yeshiva or as a parent. >> As a yeshiva meaning or you know what also as a parent. Yeah, actually I was thinking as a parent more I meant which yeshiva but yeah both but I was thinking more of a parent especially if they're older you know first or second kid they don't understand the significance fully and it's like you know yeshiva x or bust and because of the status or whatever the better kids or whatever that means are going there it's a dangerous thought it's a danger >> it's a challenge it's a challenge because the question that I get asked the most as a principal like the random house is she doing where your kids going from a sifa the number one >> and that's how they rate your school. You're saying? >> Yeah, that's how they get a flavor, right? On on your app, right? On your app that's coming out soon on rating yeshivas. They rate it by where the boys go to. >> That's a good thing. I should add that. I didn't even have that as one of the measurements. >> And parents who come for interviews for the yeshiva. I get that question almost on every >> I think it's a fair question. Don't you >> a fair question, but I'm just adding to the >> Yeah. Adds a certain amount of Right. It's true. >> It's there. >> Yeah. I would say the best answer is we send the buck to the yeshivas that fit their needs the best which range from yeshiva asks to yeshiva why I don't know if you can get away with that. No, no, no. Really, Rabbi? Really? Really? >> Right. Right. I do think that one of the our jobs as principles as Manalin is to educate parents to decide and tough and to realize that when you decide what high school your son is going to, we all want a million things. You want our sons to become to be some parents want their son to also be have the ability to become a doctor or become a lawyer and get a education. and I want my son to be and when there's a perfect yeshiva great that has all of that for you there isn't very rare and I had a parent once this is more in the modern orthodox realm that wanted to go to a certain high school and I thought her son could do so much better in a different high school and I said to the mother why do you want to send him to this high school and she said because he loves soccer and they have a soccer team >> I want to play on the soccer team >> so I said Mrs. Goldstein, I love your son, Yankee. He's not making MLS. He's not making the majors in soccer, right? It's not going to be his career. He loves soccer. Wonderful. It's wonderful. I said, I'm allowed to say this because I enjoy playing basketball. I grew up playing basketball, so I at least I appreciate sports. I said, don't take this too sharply, but choosing a high school based on its soccer team is like choosing a hospital based on its food. >> Wow, that's a good muscle. >> It's like, what should I go? Should I go to Mount S? Well, no. The kosher food in Colombia is just >> So, it's just that's where your priorities have to be in line and a lot of parents don't get it. >> I just want to say that should be the quote for this week's where they put the ad. That is an awesome line. >> Just make sure it's by my face, not my >> Yeah, I'll take it. That one you can put by me. That was a good one. Wow. >> By the way, they went to that high school because he was on the soccer team. So, they didn't listen to me. I was the Rebby, not the Manalis. Maybe I wasn't as powerful back then. But I think that's one of the things that parents who are not in the field and we are so we see the results of certain massifas of certain high schools and we have to educate parents on the consequences of I really value this I really value but the yeshiva that you're going to that because of the fact they have an amazing English I know that's obviously a big issue conversation but also the boys that go there are in a different Rama are not as well into learning and we have to pick we have to make these choices that are difficult and challenging and will be left frustrated because there isn't a perfect system. >> It's true and it gets really complicated when you're out of town because you know we're lucky we have one Mississippi and it's wonderful but to think that it's for everyone is unrealistic. So you're really forced to really think about and the importance of staying home and we've had greatl with kids go away. We have had with kids stay here. We've had the opposite of us luck with kids who go away and we've had the opposite of us luck with kids who stay here. So it's it's not >> I I do think it's important to know you know because I get phone calls from reality that Bruscious and Almanos who very nervous about their kids in high schools. They'll call me when their son's in seventh grade. Could we come meet >> and I'll say my pleasure. I'm just telling you one thing. Don't come to meet me now because the conversation about your son at the end of seventh grade is an entirely different potentially conversation than Kanuka 8th grade. and I was an eighth grade baby for nine years and when I had the parent teach at orientation my opening message to the parents was I know this is a high school year and I'm a sifty year. However, I do not let the h word or the M word exist in my class until Kaneka because my goal is as a rebi that whatever your son is holding right now in three four months from now he'll be a different kid, >> right? >> And so why already get into a certain zone and why ready get into a certain pretense of where he's going to go? It happens every year. Every single year where kids are holding in a certain level and all of a sudden boom, they jump up. It happened this year. A parent called me and said, "I want to go to yeshiva X. what does my son need for the next three months in order to be ready to take it to her there? That's a very proactive parent. >> I mean, there is something to be said at least in Houston. I could speak, you know, again for Houston, but it's probably relevant to other places also that our school is not really ready to prepare kids for Philly, Long Beach, Scranton, whatever on its own. You really do need in the end of seventh, beginning of ETH to have a tutor to someone doing make sure you do all the Tyas, >> right? Well, most of the standards are more and if you anticipate that and parents who do that, the kids do fine. But if you anticipate wanting to jump sort of lanes a little because you have to realize the kids from Houston are competing against kids who have 25 30% more than mud kesh time between extended day and Sunday and all this stuff. Although we have school on Sunday, but it's not as much as some of these other places. And um they're just the hours of exposure they have to is just less. So there is something to be said about preparing early. I wouldn't say to like pigeon hole your kid into a certain place. But if someone does want their kid to go to a certain mifa and the school is not going to naturally prepare them although I've been told you could tell me if this is true or not and we could actually this is a good question right Bogart. I've been told that almost everywhere kids who are aiming for the top tier need to prepare outside of >> I would have cried what I did as a rebby. I had boys in YBH going an extreme range of missifa's even capabilities and so Shahara was the yeshiva was it was the the type yeshiva a lot of boys wanted to go so and what I would >> you went there >> I did learn yesa punk I haven't >> so >> it's not a flex if your friend points it out go ahead >> so every shabas in her season I would have like a kabura in that I live locally so anyone who wanted to prepare prepare for fahare level high level whether you want to go to Philly Long Beach those type of yeshivas we meet and every shabas for an hour I would go through the makas and do some tis and that we missed so I would fill in the gaps as the rebi to prepare them for that >> you know not at the expense of the rest of the class and we do that now we do that now in time manhattan for those that that need it so we're gonna continue this conversation now as we bring in um Rabbi Bogart so Rabbi Yako Bogart who is an illustrious mak is currently the manal in Tash Baron Lakewood and is a part of the head staff in camp aliyah in the summer but it is a pleasure to have Bogar join us I tell youum shalom thank you for inviting me on to your podcast I think you taught high school also right >> I did when I started my career in TA of Baltimore taught 12th grade for five years then I was in YT of Staten island doesn't exist anymore. But I was there in 12th grade for two years and then I was a scammanal in Shahra Rabbi Habber's yeshiva in Brooklyn >> high school. >> High school. >> Oh wow. >> 11th grade I talked with K and was the scamal and then I went to yeshivana of as a sixth seventh and eighth gradeal and >> wow. So you do have a good perspective there. Me and Bog actually we once had a conversation remember this rabbi in Roma we were in Roma for a couple summers we dabbled in having a conversation about opening up my sister you remember that >> yes and you from Atlanta >> conversations many times yes >> you're from Atlanta right >> yes >> in Atlanta you were reb correct >> yeah ninth grade rebby and this is for 10 years 10 fun-filled years okay >> so Rab Boger when a parent calls you I know Lakewood I know the say they're in Lakewood is the season when it starts. But leaving that aside, a parent calls me now and said, "Rabbi, I'm going into the summer of 8th grade, right? My son's going to, you know, I don't know one, he's going to he's going to and >> Aaliyah, I would have mentioned Aaliyah, but I don't want to put the pressure." And >> we never fail. I don't think we've had an episode without an a shout out, by the way. Just want to put that out there. He somehow slips it into every conversation. Okay, continue. Sorry. >> So, >> go ahead. >> Is there anything I can do over the summer? What? like it's my bakar and I'm so nervous and I know that in Lakewood it's everything is so competitive to get in. What can I do to get my son ready? HE'S A HE'S A REGULAR nice boy. He's a good boy. Help me prepare. You're talking about >> Yes, >> that's a great question. I would tell him have a great summer can't do what you're supposed to do. Be a good boy in the summer and don't think about eighth grade yet. Just have a great summer. That's what I would say. I don't think there's anything he needs to do unless but I would say if there's a deficiency that's already recognized let's say he struggles with Korea or he's just not getting gar he's not he's not gamar at all then in the summer is a great time during let's say during learning groups to hire rebi give that extra uh enrichment to get him a better start for eighth grade but a a boy that doesn't have that issue. I just, you know, just shout, be part of the camp, do do what you're supposed to do, make a good name for yourself, and and have a great summer. Does that make sense? Do you hear that? >> Sure does. Would you say generally the boys, and this isn't a Tajar discussion? I don't know anything about Tajbar, but in general, would you say that the kids get to places they want to go to? >> You're talking about getting into Mifa? >> Yeah. Do kids generally get to get into the mass that they want to, or is there a lot of disappointment in the process? >> No. That's a great question. Ruba D Ruba are going to get into where they're supposed to. I'll tell you why. >> You didn't say where they want to. You said where they're supposed to. There's >> Okay. So, no, no, I meant by the time the FAR process starts where they kind of know what their head what they're in for and they get into those choices. What I mean by that is if the man and the rebi and who else whoever else is involved the bra whoever it is is guiding the parents and the parents are also in tuned attuned to what's best for their child then they're going to pick from the gamut of those three four yeshivas that really he has a good chance of getting into that will service him that are the right fit and which case of those most often he will get into one of those >> are parents realistic >> it's a very Good question. I've I've had some shocking stories. Um mo 99% parents are very in tune and realistic with their children. What is the right place and they're open to listening and they're open to guidance from their manal or the rebay. That's what I find 99%. But I've run into some strange examples where a person in camp uh is still waiting on the mifa that they really want to send them to. mean after 8th grade. >> Yeah. I said before Ell's in two weeks. What are you What are you talking about? This happens with my brother-in-law. My brother-in-law is is in charge, you know, is in in Scranton. He's now the Rash in Scranton, right? We we we we think we're thinking about sending him to Scranton. That's really where we want. My brother-in-law I called my brother-in-law right away. He said, I don't what are they talking about? Back in December, I told him it's not. He was it was like three, five, seven levels below that. and they're still holding that on to the pipe dream in in in August. So that was that was extremely strange and but on on that's generally not what happens. It's generally not what happens. How do you deal with you know Tajbar I know it's in Lakewood so so the range of the level of learning between again I don't want to name even though and then you name them but the the highest level to to the lower level and you your eighth grade reayan how did they did they teach to the to the top how how do you deal with my son's in eighth grade will he get enough typhus I know in Lakewood there's more tyist than other places will he will he get enough will he overwhelmed how do you balance being an eighth grade rebby with getting him Islamits see I dropped it's a fantastic question and I'll tell you it's interesting when I was in and now in Tashbar as well we did the following the main sheer what the Reb is doing in the classroom is Gomorra Rashi his way of teaching has to kind of be shovel obviously there's brighter guys that are getting it right away and there are boys who are struggling to understand the tyus obviously there's you know the top and the bottom but the rebi is not going off into he's not he is not and we don't want him to and and in my experience both in Tashbar that was not done >> is it done in other places >> on purpose so that you do not lose those kids now those kids they may struggle with the garra but they're not being totally felt left out like that we never do that >> and the parents are in Rab Bulgar but is is our boys our boys are sought after just as much as the other yes I don't I don't buy into that at all they don't lose out at all and what we do offer is and and and sake we did it and I brought that to Tashbar as well that we have an extra year so on Tuesday nights after yeshiva totally optional we'll have 30 to 40 eighth graders staying and I get to feel like I'm raasha I come in they every quarters and I say a they write it down and they're in and and it's totally optional and then they can fly because because this is not the boy doesn't want to come and and we don't make a whole big thing about it during the day. It's not like oh you're you're you're left out you're the loser because you don't go to mash. It's a it's a it's a nice quiet thing after yes otherwise you want to want to gain from that. >> So they're hearing >> that's a really beautiful idea. They're hearing the like you were mentioning a second ago what you did in SH with Makus you know they're hearing they're hearing they're hearing that those in >> and it doesn't create a pressure theas aren't asking whether do you go to the Tuesday you know it doesn't create that pressure for the kids to go >> no I don't think I don't know whether they know about it the boys who go to the top tier yeshivas are able on their fer to share you know to share that hon to share those added pieces that that that always come away uh looking good. I >> the yeshivas need you or do you need the yeshivas? Do they come to you and say >> very interesting very interesting in Lakewood now believe it or not we had in our list there are 50 yeshivas >> 5 and I'm not including >> oh my gosh places I'm not including a whole world of which I don't know about but there are 50 >> so do they come to you with the sales rep with the mug and the magnet and they say get no kickback. >> Yeah. How does it work? I mean, how do they how do you know about all 50? How do you learn about them? >> There's So, that's great. My rebane will go out and check them out. I'll go check them out. Also, once in the beginning when they first start, they'll come down and talk to us. They'll come multiple times. You know, the the person will come down multiple times. Often, you could tell right away. You could you kind of have a sense this guy has it or he doesn't have it. And I've seen people who wanted a certain niche. They serve that purpose and they they were fantastic. I feel like in in Lakewood I'm just speaking for Lakewood. Lakewood right now has the full gamut top highest level uh most rightwing in terms of you know frunkite and all that all the way to lower level and a little more mainstream or less stark whatever you want to call those words. There's a whole gamut and every kid I feel can find a place that he's comfortable. I I I think it's amazing actually. Well, one of the challenge I know that's it's in Lakewood more than other places, but it's everywhere is if I take him then my reput as the right that game. If I take these two boys, they really fit in my place. But then two other boys said they're not going to come like that that whole very dirty game. >> Well, that Okay. So, so part of the uh the one negative out out uh result of the kina growth of the community there's so many so many kids the competition so much that we're this is what I feel like have to educate parents about and this point what used to be when we were kids right you're a good kid you're basically good this you're gonna get into a good a good massa And you can rub shoulders with a big gun and a real smart kid. And there's a variety. >> Where were you? You went to Where'd you go from? >> I went to Ner. >> I will tell you a story. When I went, I took a voice of 10. Okay. It was on Babakama and I think it was Zion Alf. Okay. And he asked me, I read the Gomorrah decently. Okay. I was coming from Atlanta. He asked me to read a certain rashi. I think I did not know a single word in that rashi. And that was the end of my failure. It was terrible. And I I I knew nothing. And he basically just asked me, "Are you good at math?" I said, "Yeah, I do very well in math." He says, "Okay, we'll try it out." >> Yeah, that will that will work in in in your >> That was that was the old days. And what's happened now is since there's a beautiful boys and such a such a yeshivas and such a with the growth of Israel at least I'm just focused on Lakewood and I don't know how it is in all the every every place but I'm assuming there's growth everywhere and there's so many beautiful kids. Therefore when they have the their 100 or 200 applicants they are able to choose and cherrypick the the the best ones that fit their yeshiva and then I don't understand my kid is such a nice kid. He's such a good boy. Why is he not accepted? It's just three levels above where your kid is. He's a wonderful kid. And I actually tell parents, you are so blessed with the best kid in the world. He's a mitsu in every way. He's wonderful. He tries. He's smart. He's bright. He's davins. He's the best. But he's not going to get into that yeshiva. And that's just a reality. That's a reality. You have to bring parents around to un to be mir who their son is. And it's not a negative. It's a positive. He's a great boy. Let's put him in a place that fits. >> I think there's an important piece to explore here and it's helpful that you taught at YTT of blessed memory of a brother in Staten Island because >> my brother went my brother you didn't teach my brother Rabbit but no I don't think so. My brother is a graduate of YTT my older brother. >> Well that's a good example because what I want to say is back in the day because I went to Shar Muny which was 1110 Levittown 1110. So, I know the style of a place and there wasn't a sense that you're a loser by going to a place like that or that you're um you couldn't make it. It was a you felt like it was a place that fit you and it was ideal. And the sense that exists today is that if you're not getting into the top tier yeshivas in learning, it means that you're not really such a good guy. A and b that the eurosim that goes along with it and the sense of pride that goes along with it and all the negative fallout of that attitude that we when a person feels that way goes with it. So when you said there's a full gamut, a full range in Lakewood, can you address the bottom so to speak 20% are those places that you'd want your child to be at? Are they healthy places where the kids feel good about themselves or are they places like Nebuk? We have them, but uh they're not really great pride places. >> So, I don't want to speak about any specific method. I'm a big fan of the vast majority of the misters are amazing. And I feel like once the boys in the place where he belongs, they have amazing rebay and they they make them feel like a million bucks. >> I'm thinking of, you know, that's great. That's wonderful. No, I'm saying >> they don't see themselves as the Nebuk like I had to go to yeshiva X because I'm not in the top. >> Now, now is it possible there would be yeshiva which is not functioning well and they don't have it together and they picked up a few buff and it's not successful. There could be such a thing but in general uh I I've seen very very capable who are very proud of dealing with that group of boys and they make them feel like they make them feel great. What do you say to the parent who complains and I think I I I know a little bit about so I I think you probably have this type of parent body let's use that that umbrella they some of them are lawyers some of them are doctors they went to school they're decently educated and they come to you and they say my son is an eighth grader and I am sending him to and this is not in a liquid conversation I know Lakewood it's a little more extreme but it's really anywhere in the right-wing yeshiva I'm forced to send my son to a mifa that is gonna take my son away from the hashkaf that I believe in I'm a n my son won't go to n he wants to only go to so do you feel and and I have the same challenge as a manal to I want my son my to go here but that's not the family's it's not and and that's the better learning but if the boy goes there he's going to move away from his family. >> Okay, that's a great question. I've shared in the past, I don't always do it, but this has come up. I've shared my own life story and just the incredible I had to my parents who were not who did not grow up in the yeshiva setting and did not were not educating yeshiva who were open-minded enough and sensitive enough to what I needed or to what I was striving for and there were therefore were supportive of the idea that my child can go beyond where I went. I want my kid and I share this with with parents. I want I don't want to handicap or limit my children. I want to have them full opportunity. I want them have the opportunity to be the biggest rasha or to end up living in shells sitting and learning y valu a person who can see that their child shouldn't be inhibited by their limitations and go beyond that I think is amazing. You think it's your as a manal to fight the parents? I don't you know like I have a Reb who called me recently and he was he's like he's like I have a kid he's a you should go like and I'm not going to say names of please stop me regardful if I do and he's like I want my son to go to this and his parents because of their hashkus don't want because the English there isn't good and therefore they want to and he's like they're going to be mazic the kid I want to do he wants to know he wants to call the parents he wants the manal to get involved in terms of pushing a parent >> right >> outside their hashkafic you zone. The parents are modern orthodox. So they want the kid to be monexiva and you I know like you don't have that >> right that that the idea I listen bottom line is bottom line is the parents it's their child right so I feel like if you're able to and share with the the beautiful they will have and bring them into your thinking that would be amazing but in the situation where they're not being brought into that if if they are mak he's going you know we are this this is where our children have to go then you know what then maybe respect their opinion let them go there and the boy will still outstrive the place and end up moving where he's supposed to go >> in in in Picar once told me you know who it is but I won't say it he said I'm happy at the fact that there's very few yes yeshivas in pose there were it's growing maybe because it forces the kids to dorm to get away from their parents this person who was like the parents like they care but there are some they might bal and they don't I don't want them home. This is a big mechanic who wanted to keep the amount of yeshiva less to force kids to leave their parents. Listen, this is delicate stuff and it's individualized and you know in each case and I'm sure the parents that are listening right now do not appreciate being told that you know the manal know better than them and we're all trying to do our best you know trying to please the >> do the know better than the parents. What? >> Well, I had a parent came and told came into my office once and told me, "You guys have never left school. You don't know anything about life." >> What do you mean? Go to camp. What are you talking about? >> Right. So, so you know, by definition, since you're still sitting by a desk inside of Yeshiva, by definition, you absolutely knew know nothing about life and have no business telling anybody anything. But I think most parents don't agree to that. And I think there's just tremendous in the classrooms and running yeshivas. I think parents respect the opinions of the mashiam that they've sent their children to be in their charge and therefore want to hear what they have to say often and would buy in to something that resonates that that's reasonable that makes sense that's that's about bringing their son up to be the ventura that potentially he's supposed to be. I don't army against it unless they're real, you know, very negative or very very opinionated, but most people are are very mapp Yeah. Yeah. I think I think we're not arguing too much, which is boring. But I know in the girls high school, this is a bigger issue, I think. Maybe not. How often is it by you that it's April, May, June, and you have How many eighth graders do you have in Tash Bar in general? >> 79. >> How often is it Pesak time and there are kids not? It's still in in >> No, they all get it. It's very interesting how I don't want to go into the whole Lakewood Faher season system. It's a topic atma and I've invested a lot of kus into it. >> It's wild. >> Yeah. Listen, there's a lot of there's a lot to be said how positive it is and the negative sides of it. Whatever it is, it's it is what it is based on so many people. But within a day or two, everyone is placed. That's how it is. >> Yeah. Within a day or two, everyone is placed. >> Oh my. >> It's it's it's an incredible thing. Now let me tell a story that kind of brings the other side of the things. There was a boy who his mother said I think the best rebi for my son is this person. He's the in the manal and he's the nth rabbi of a certain shiva. That's where I want him to go. Okay. Now his son that that boy was in eighth grade not up to going to that mifa. And maybe there were three or four boys also trying to get into that mifa that were say higher on the total pole of of ability and everything and more likely to get in and they weren't getting in and matter of fact we went down to the house of the the rashiva 12 at night to try to bang you know get him in one of the higher boys and then we were having difficulties I told his mother it's not gaya he's not on borderline he's the body no guy he's the body no guy so what what are we doing I'm very pragmatic you know what I mean So, no, that's where he's going. That's the best Rebby. He loves him and he's the best. He knows him from camp. This is the Rebby he has to learn by. At that point, I kind of like pull my hands back and say, "Listen, this woman has her own parents have a right to do that. I I think they're I think she's doing the wrong thing, but she has a right to do that." So, I said, "Our child is kind of done where we think what they're what I think is no longer relevant. You're doing that. I hear I hope you I hope you pull it off. And she did not stop begging this until Pes he was not in from from whatever it was till Pes. He wasn't in crying crying and he was accepted. >> Wow. >> Now what was the end of the story? He did wonderfully there. Did wonderfully >> well because most kids can do wonderfully. >> They built a beautiful bak. So I don't know what the lesson of that is. The lesson of a mother's tears of her feelas. Were we wrong? Was she right? I don't know what the lesson is, but we aasha, right? We were dealing with what we know to make sense and to try our hardest to get him into the right place that fit for him. She had something else in mind and she pulled it off. So, I respect that. >> What do most share that story every year with the parents? I share that. >> It's a beautiful story. What do most of us look for? Like obviously ability in Gimmor. Would you say that's 80%. >> That was my >> or is it 50%. >> Okay. listen to know he's got to be able to manage he's got to be able to understand the shir he has to be able to learn kamuses with the other guys >> right the learning learning a lot more is that they that the whole persona of the guy the whole personality the whole boy comes across you know what's his attitude is he look like he's eager and is to learn you know that's going to be a major factor in getting accepted a boy has a lot of who the rebi just raves about his how could how could a mo not want someone who has such like What do you do with a kid who's like that in Kesh and he's a terrorist? >> Well, he's not. There is no worry about >> No, not matter because the missas still provide that form for the English principal to fill out. >> Of course, doesn't matter whe they have English or not. >> Maybe they have 40 minutes of English, they 30 minutes English, they have some afternoon program. They want to know how the boy behaves. >> So, how how much would that play in? Let's say the boy is like really good in Kodex. Like really, >> right? Right. And he's a build in the afternoon who makes trouble and that's going to come across on the English principles thing. >> Yeah. >> And he's not going to get in >> really >> I I believe that. Why do they want to deal with a person who doesn't who doesn't have good meters? So it's it's a very crucial thing and we will do our best to minimize if we forgot to include that paper in the application. You know what I'm saying? >> Yep. I know exactly what you're saying. >> Let's keep it between us. I don't want everyone to hear, >> right? No one should hear this. But no, the point is we try our best. Listen, I have to say one more story. It's a great story because I think it's important parents understand the rebi, the man, everyone in the yeshiva is trying their best to make your son look like a million bucks. Everyone is obviously bringing out his mileas. No one's accentuating his or his, you know, the trouble. And you're not lying to Yeshivas, but you're putting his best foot forward in in your in your presentation. I'm going to just say an amazing story where sometimes this gets mixed up for parents. a boy comes into the fahare the manal is very nice unlike some other situations where they kind of let you know on the fahare that you're you have no chance and they're looking at the watch and they're right which I've heard this from maybe in other settings that does not happen at least in Lakewood or any yeshiva that I know >> I know my father-in-law's great yeshiva breer every boy comes out feeling like a money okay will he get in we don't know if he's getting in but he's a great boy this rashiva was so good at making this boy feel good vunderar Valdic, wow, so nice. And he shook the hand so warmly and he said to the father, "We'll be in touch." You know, I just will check with Nishiva, but such a beautiful boy. This is such a great boy. And they left. What was their impression >> that he's going to get in? >> He's going to get in. But the man had mentioned we have to just check with >> now. He didn't get in. He got rejected. >> They blamed you, of course. >> So, what happened? Of course, the Rebi Rabbi Bogard, someone's out to get this kid. Someone's out. Someone messed this up cuz we pulled it off and they messed it up. >> And what was the reality? What really happened behind behind the curtain? What happened? >> It's about me. >> As soon as he left, as soon as he left the fair, the rasha called me up or the reb I don't remember. Was it me or the reb? How did you send such a boy to take a fair by me? >> This was three levels below what we're taking. >> Don't be laughing now. He did a beautiful job making him feel like a million bucks, but he had no haviness of taking him. and fake care the manal and me were convincing him how he should take him but what did the parents see >> what did the parents see so these are that's just an interesting story just that you never know what's going on behind the scenes behind the scenes I believe that your manal and your rebi is fighting for your child I don't believe there's anybody's not doing that >> do you give in yeshiva we do that by us that every kid I sit I make believe I my goal is that my should be scarier than whatever fair you go Right. That's a great thing. I had 79 boys. I did give 101 for hairs sometime before that and maybe called in some other boys just to make sure. So I tried to but it it probably wasn't as effective as I would like. >> We have a little less than 79 boys in our eighth grade. We should be climbing at >> I want to tell you something. What we used to do in SE was amazing. Rab used to help arrange this. >> We have Bunn from town. >> Okay. We had Rabbi >> Zupnik. Rabbi Zupnik. >> Rabbi Zupnik. You had Rabbi Sternal Shalom Stern >> Breastlower would come. >> Yes. You had Wait a second. I'll tell you more. You had um Rabbi from the Akura. >> Oh boy. >> Rabbi Sax was known he can give the Fare without a Gomorrah, right? He would do he doesn't need a gumar. He's fantastic. So that that was nice. I I I have not worked out something like that. >> But it's amazing by us and that we do it again. We have a small so I can and I I happen to know year to year what the questions are asked in the ferra you know the type and we do that a real maker you sit down and make believe and you know and one thing I warned the boys is you have you they're not going to hear you on but they're going to ask you a ni you're learning because I know of of two boys the boys they went to a certain yeshiva they were classmates and the rebi said to them what nie learning the kids okay boom next comes in he says what you're learning and he says >> right And the second kid was wrong. >> Right. Right. >> And he didn't get in because you know you better you better. >> Okay. Great story from YTT days. Great story. Torres Mosha came and Rabi Abramitz gave the fah and go learning and Rabi fisherman the mash gave the clus fisherman came out. He said listen this boy I asked them which story happened first >> right the famous trick right >> and what did the boy answer >> and the kid probably answered the kanik happened first. >> I'm not so good in kish. No, no, no. So you need to be a little more aware than that. But that was for Billy. That's from going from high school. >> I want to put out there for all of our listeners. I took a ba with Ter Mosha. >> Yeah. >> They have to know all the trick questions. Now they know that one. And the one they asked me was what are all the sperm of Kairo wrote. >> Oh yeah. Okay. >> They have to knowishna and the afkas. I now have to change the all their questions. I once did that and I know a lot of the sher questions THAT TELL STOP GIVING you the answers. >> Oh man told me this that he can tell who which kids are just working off what was prepared with them. >> Yeah. >> Who got really really understood it. >> Beautiful. >> I want to say another thing about eighth grade. We don't put pressure. We don't even say the M word. We don't talk about it until mamas 4. And I tell parents also, eighth grade is not about getting into massa. 8th grade is about being the best buffer you can be. And the mea, >> you'll be the guy to get into massa. >> 100%. >> It has two two negativities if you just make it about missa. One is it's way too much pressure >> and two is as soon as he gets in, what's the point of learning? Because that was never my my entire goal of eighth grade was just to get ina. We we both have a shakar in in in Riverdale right we both were part of the k there you k there so when I was when I started my career in sorry told me don't become an eighth grade rebby you come seventh if you have a choice um because in eighth grade once they get into mifa you lose them for the rest of the year >> that's what he said to me so I taught eighth grade for nine years and one of the reasons when I came to yeshiva and I'm to teach makas was that we finish the ma so that keeps the drive going >> very good parents have complained to me that that and that's an issue why some some feel the mifa process should take place after pes just to get it get it going a little later in the year. >> Wow. >> But listen the good boy a good rebi of learning the whole year. It's not the same intensity that's 100% true but it's it still could be good the whole year. Other than Gamara and Midos, are there any other highle factors like money siblings? No. Are there any other like factors besides learning and >> well you can't help money or siblings as the right >> I found this a few times in mifas. Okay. A missifa is not going to compromise their mifa based on and money and mess up the mifa with a boy that mamish doesn't app. I've seen it. The pull helps when he's in when he's in the para >> and he could make it there and he could be Mat there and it's going to work there and but there's a whole bunch of kids up above him. So then maybe the push and the pulling and the and the connection and the and the money helps that out. But to go say that all the classes are created based on and money is just the sheer. It's not true. the the yeshivas are are setting up their yeshiva based on what's going to be and their yeshiva for their rebain for their type of boys. That's what they're doing. Yes, there's a few boys that get pushed in one or two or whatever it is, whatever that number is that are maybe wouldn't have gotten in and they had that extra full. I don't see it as like some sort of a oh, it's a rigged system or something like that at all. I don't see that at all. you know, as as a manal that feels that to help boys get in. I think that when you have connections and it takes years to build up these connections with the misters, with the mifas, push really helps when the manal calls and calls again and obvious like you said, but at the end of the day, if you have a kid and you really fight for that kid and you believe that he'll be mak there and you have a good relationship with him, very often he'll get in, >> right? I believe that also because they if you're honest with them, if you develop a true relationship, then they can trust you that you're not selling them the Brooklyn Bridge, but he's actually a boy. Might be a little struggle, but hey, we've always sent you such great boys. We helped start your yeshiva or we remember that year we sent you those three mits and this and this boy's going to do well. Please, you know, I think they will work with you. So that's >> I once had a that tried to get his son into his satarot and he tried to get him into yeshiva and nef didn't take the boy and the father said but I once did you a favor a huge favor did for I don't want to say that favor was because then people know who it is so common said back he said that was a personal favor I don't own the yeshiva asking me to because of a personal favor to let a boy into the yeshiva is >> wow >> if he didn't if he said if he did a favor for the yeshiva it's a yeshiva but I have personal cards to tell you to use. I've taken something. >> Very interesting. >> Yeah. >> I think Nar Baltimore is just one of the things that they work really hard to do and are very proud of is taking a few kids who are mach are like their dream. >> I'm a product of that. I'm a >> Yeah. You look you benefited from that hashkafa which is harder to do in today's age. I know it's getting harder and harder because people have less patience for other than they had but they really try >> Garfield you are so right and I don't have any answer to that question meaning Israel rabi tendler always set up there was the rabbi freedman there was rabi icera there was the hayir and then even in 10th grade there was you know kind of a right and then if you don't make it in by 11th and 12th okay you know then it didn't work out right but he he was willing to give that a shot he was willing to give so many and like so many people. Rabbi Fran, where is he from? Seattle or something. Burkowitz is from uh San Francisco. >> He really is. >> Yeah. Yes. And uh there's another one from Memphis. Rabbi um >> Malakam Lansky. >> From Malcolm Lansky. Right. So they some of the real cluster of people came from the attitude, but it is harder today. So >> listen, one of the best he's still learning is Slatcher. >> Yeah. Yeah. Or South Carolina, right? >> Yeah. He's still sitting learning. He's a go. He's a go. But that was an amazing thing that no one will ever be able to replicate what Rabbi Newberger or Rabbi Ter did. >> Well, I will say Rabbi Sim Cook is doing a decent job. >> The legacy >> this legacy what they created of taking, do you know about Garfield's relationship to Cook? >> Uh his son-in-law, right? He was I love we and he was coach Kabura actually when I was in >> 12th grade we said kaburas and he or maybe first year it was Mayor Randberg me and David Riiffken maybe and >> oh wow >> the Neil Lipner maybe and we had Rabbi Cook was our kabur was very very >> but he talks about how it's very much on his mind to try to continue that legacy but it's getting hard and >> no guys from Mexico guys from all over Yeah, >> you know, >> great crazy stories. >> Guys just over shortly before that were sent by whoever they were sent to Rabbi Tendler to take him in. Wasn't there someone pertinent? What's his name? >> Pton. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. He was a boy scout from Pittsburgh maybe. I don't read read the Rabbi Tendler book. I mean the Rabbit Tendler book itself uh is full is full of these stories. >> Well, thank you Riley Bogart. is really great and we feel we've explored uh some of the major issues and it's it's great to know that someone's out there doing the work you do the way you do it because it sounds like >> Thank you. It's my pleasure. It's an honor to be uh asked to be uh on the >> right. All the best. Have a wonderful day. >> Thank you for joining us on the Learning Curve podcast. >> Find more on this and other topics at mishbah.com.